Kissinger = Zionism... lets see.. in 1938 Kissingers family fled germany because they were jewish and blah blah.... yet wait a minute... after ww2 he was responsible for bringing all the nazi scientists to america, i have heard a lot of the camps and projects in nazi germany were run by jewish individuals there were even jewish officers that hitler personally pardoned... there was a synagogue in berlin that functioned the entire time and a rabbi from poland was brought in for weddings and such
I know that modern medicine is all about business and big money. They do NOT care about your health or curing any disease. Just making trillions in profits for multinational corporate giants from death, disease, and human misery.
why do people make schemes to hugley epic proportions to make dozens of millions of dollars each person, whats with the money hungriness that all old white men seek? someone tell me, whathappens when you get so incredibly rich? what simply get a huge flatscreen in a huge mansion or is there like a portal to your dreams or something because these douchbags are deibratley fucking everybody over for some reason, it better be better than individual materialism
@albertsneijMD Gallo is not a medical doctor. He's a dentist who makes part of his money by selling bullshit homeopathic quackery. The rest of it comes from defaming the profession of virology for an audience of credulous fools who will believe anything.
What can we do to stop these Psychopaths? I understand that gaining knowledge about the problems is the first step. But once we get this info - What are we to do with it? How do we apply it? Other than feeling overwhelmed by it? We need practical steps on how to fight these Nazis. Basic things we can ALL begin doing for SOLUTIONS.
Dr. Gallo had such a look of arrogant unconcern on his face as he listened to the question and as he lied through his teeth in this interview, I felt like punching his evil face in. I have mistrusted recombinant DNA research from the first moment I heard of it; knowing in my bones that those in it were up to no good.
I just realized that these ppl. have weird looking fingers like the doctor Galo has, deformed. And that Dr.Galo is lying and trying to crawl out of trouble.
man that guy got way offended when he dropped that accusation on him,,,in his defense the guy sure does start to make out that our guy is a lunatic for raising the issue:)
colloidal silver is the cure for aids, leatril is the cure for cancer. Bouth drugs are ilegal and marked as dangerous poison.
You can buy silver in swis and you can find leatril in fruit seeds. Now think and make up your own mind. They said b15 is causing cancer, but you may find it in nuts. So are they nuts or is there some logical reason behind it? Think.
the truth is that USA and Soviet scientists worked together continuously in secret at top levels of the governments. both countries even in public the scientists and doctors worked in collaboration with cancer. mainly on children in the Soviet Union, and infected many children and studied the disease, which resulted in many people with lymphoma in Russia, unusually high concentration of people with that disease. Along with other cancers as leukemia. My family member was infected & died of it.
Click on my youtube name to go to my channel and see a recent, extremely hard hitting interview on the absolute fraud and danger of vaccines -- and about a simple tool to viralize the truth about vaccines. The more people that know the truth, the harder it will be to force these vaccines on those of us that would rather put our trust in God, eating right, our own immune systems, faith & prayer -- rather than on Big Pharma and their veritable witches brews.
Right because my qualifications, your insinuating I cant have an opinion on wether or not you troll the web day after day? that much is obvious AT LEAST. All I've seen you put on this matter is bunk. You cant back up your alligations with a single fact either so wtf is the point in retorting so pathetically.
This isn't JUST a prison planet, it's the human lab for these entities born of PURE UNADULTERATED EVIL & have not only made this place the, human lab of living hell...but hell itself!! The evil ones feed on the living to fill their bellies as human guts & blood drip from their feasting jaws as they share stories of conquests with each other.
What frigging planet, star, galaxy, or rock did these parasitic entities escaped or crawled out from anyway? They can't POSSIBLE BE humans...just can't be!!
redleg: proof, U want more proof than all before us? This isnt rocket science. Our bad if WE (the majority) don't wake up from the co-self-induced-hypnotic-sleep & replace the colostomy bag!! What more evidence is needed? Aren't public servants (minority) supposed to SERVE THE PUBLIC (majority)? Is that what's happening, did I miss the memo on that? Isnt duplicity, stealing, betrayal etc enough proof ? W/our heads in the sand & ass in the air colostomy bag has exploded!! (shit hits the fan)
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It's because he realizes how asinine the question is. At first he's giving Horowitz the benefit of the doubt, then he's not sure he's heard the question correctly because it's so stupid. Then he realizes he's heard the question right, and that Horowitz is a crackpot.
Horowitz is not a doctor. He's a dentist. But hey, if you are stupid enough to believe him, then follow his advice and avoid medical care.
It is not about buying what leo is saying, is about 2 recognize that virus recombination is a natural process which is enhanced in its rate ones u find a common host, and mixing together different types and strains from distant origins as many of these dark side researchers have been doing for decades, situation which in normal condition would be almost impossible for that u don need molecular cloning
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
No, there's simply no support for Horowitz's claims which are in fact slanderous. If I were Gallo I would have sued his pants off-- he's made actionable statements repeatedly and continues to do so.
It would be very funny watching Len Horowitz, Dentist, arguing his case in front of a courtroom full of virologist expert witnesses.
anyone notice gallo's left hand pinky finger is deformed?, just like paulson's same left hand pinky finger, wonder if this is some nwo, pledge symbol(breaking of the left pinky fingers) anyone else have some input on this>?
CHEMRISK - a research company hired by the Corn Refiners has recently taken down it's YouTube page.
The removal was in response to negative public perception resulting from the high-fructose corn syrup ad campaign. Apparently it has become a liability to defend the sweetener.
See one of the last remaining ChemRisk videos at CornRefinersAssoc on YouTube.
"You know whois telling the truth when one attacks the other without using facts or reason."
Like how horowitz makes all manner of bizarre claims about virology that don't match up chronologically?
Dentists don't know viruses from a hole in the head. Horowitz DOES need to take biology 101-- it might help him understand how ridiculous his claims about HIV and ebola origins are.
#1"As a matter of fact, the government in the US, as flawed as it may be, is the only thing that DOES protect us from complete domination by corporations.
#2You rail about Monsanto-- Monsanto is a great example of subversion of the government by corporate interests. The government in that case abdicated their responsibility."
Surely you're not that stupid. One thing the government does do, or is supposed to do, is to protect us from quack doctors.
Another is to vaccinate our children so that they don't DIE of diseases that were all but wiped out until antivac quacks like Horowitz got people to stop vaccinating their children.
The government protections don't always work. They can only protect the willing, after all.
I wonder how many people will die in the coming months because Horowitz and others like him persuaded them to fear the World Health Organization.
Me, I'm taking vaccines when they're offered. Len, I hope you avoided yours. Please stick with that prayer stuff, and please get other vaccine-avoiding christians to congregate with you in large numbers.
After all, shouldn't you all be praying together in groups so Jesus can protect you better?
There is no vaccine for a rapidly mutating influenza. Horowitz didn't make up lies about the criminal negligence of major US corporations including medicine and pharma.
What's you thing about bashing religion? I'm an atheist, and I could care less what someone believes. But if you think that Big govt is here to protect anybody, you're deluded. Big gov't protects the big industries including their criminal negligence and gross misconduct. What it doesn't protect...is you.
As a matter of fact, the government in the US, as flawed as it may be, is the only thing that DOES protect us from complete domination by corporations. You rail about Monsanto-- Monsanto is a great example of subversion of the government by corporate interests. The government in that case abdicated their responsibility. It's not so much the fault of government itself, though-- the problem is that they are supposed to be governing but aren't.
Horowitz's lies about prophesy and faith healing further destroy his credibility. If he doesn't have any real proof-- and he doesn't-- he shouldn't be blathering about it.
"Horowitz didn't make up lies about the criminal negligence of major US corporations including medicine and pharma."
No, the man is a quack selling quack cures and conspiracy theories to an audience of credulous dupes.
His lies about the evils of the medical profession are very likely to be getting people killed in the event of any major epidemic (like maybe a couple of weeks hence).
The man must like rubella, whooping cough, measles, mumps and polio.
I don't think he likes any of those things but you can't bash someone just because they are exposing corrupt businesses for who they are. you can't deny what happened in the past. since u claim this man is only telling lies, then come with the information to debunk him. the medical and pharmaceutical profession has corruption just like every other industry. only this is far more important as the whole nation trusts these companies with their lives.
"you can't bash someone just because they are exposing corrupt businesses"
I'm just bashing him for playing fast and loose with the facts and telling parents not to vaccinate their children for polio, while profiting in the process.
"But once again, there's no proof, only circumstantial evidence."
If someone commits a murder with an unusual, never before seen black, purple and green pearl handled revolver. And that person was caught marching around with a black, purple and green pearly handled revolver...
it could stand up in a murder trial.
That revolver is the never before seen mix of human, swine and bird flu viruses. We can't prove Agent Orange caused cancer either. But it did.
H5N1 isn't transmitted to humans via respiratory contact but hand to mouth thru contact with bird droppings. The one factor that was being watched for it's pandemic potential was for it to mutate to human to human respiratory contact.
What do you think about scientists who make flu shots putting that virus in with respiratory transmitted human virus?
As to the plausibility factor of whether or not Aids is a manufactured bio weapon, consider this:
Baxter "accidentally" ships flu shots to 18 countries that are a Frankenstein mix of human, swine and bird flu virus.
And now Baxter is working with the WHO to create a vaccine for this anticipated pandemic outbreak of an unusual strain of swine, bird and human flu viruses.
The one thing bird flu isn't is airborne, yet here you have scientists mixing the strains and providing them as flu vaccines.
No, I have actually read your book. I read it when it first came out, and I think it was a badly written, badly researched, self-published piece of trash in which you libel much of the legitimate medical profession based on extremely shaky evidence.
You are not promoting science but insane conspiracy paranoia, apocalypse fear and woo-woo religious drivel, as you well know. "AIDS and Ebola" was bad enough. Now your "work" is pure fear-mongering hucksterism.
Badly researched? The controversies he pointed out involving early AIDS research can still be found in journals. The bio weapons research he uncovered is ground breaking.
You should have the integrity to admit if the manufacture of AIDS isn't persuasive to you from a retrovirology perspective, at least there is compelling anecdotal evidence for a realistic potential from the biowarfare perspective.
Attacking Dr Horowitz personally doesn't end the controversies. Stop the straw man attacks!
Gematriya is a respectable Jewish tradition. Are you antisemitic? I don't believe in Bible codes personally, but why do his personal religious belief offend you or negate his research into intelligence services bio weapon ops?
How can you attack someones credibility on the basis of their personal religious beliefs? That's just dumb.
Gematriya is a respectable jewish tradition as walking around with bones stuck through noses is a respectable tradition of Trobriand witchdoctors.
As you well know, it's a pile of shit. But the real problem comes when you start trying to sell quack health remedies based on bullshit from the Bronze Age, and trying to tell people to eschew modern medicine. If you don't see a problem with that, perhaps it's you who should seek treatment of some sort.
If that is the case, why don't you find a video of questionable health remedies and protest that instead of protesting a video about govt manipulation of AIDS?
I have no disrespect for gematriya. There are people who believe Jesus can heal them. None of it has anything to do with what is presented in this video.
"I have no disrespect for gematriya. There are people who believe Jesus can heal them. None of it has anything to do with what is presented in this video."
It has to do with Horowitz's willingness to play fast and loose with the facts. The man has a credibility problem.
Having a religious belief has nothing to do with the attacks on his honesty. It doesn't have any relationship to the troubling facts he exposes involving memos from drug companies or Gallo working for Fort Detrick.
Give it a break. It's not even interesting. We have a new manipulated outbreak going on that IS worth investigating.
where's your proof that it's not manipulated? oh yeah the lying media that is controlled by the govt. were you there in mexico when the virus first broke out? i doubt it.
That's not how proof works. When we make a claim (like "swine flu was biowar") we have to provide proof for the assertion. It's not the party demanding proof that has to provide proof :)
In this case, there is no proof whatsoever that this was any sort of biowar release-- it simply does not fit the profile. On the other hand, there is much academic literature and evidence pointing to the likelihood that this outbreak began on a factory farm.
so are you one of those that believes everyone is a conspiracy theorist?
I suppose if your the government you can't really investigate yourself fairly so everything is an act of treason. I like how you use the word "academic literature" and also attack Horowitz's credentials. I suppose your one of those silicon chips that only believe the official story. Do you refute that we are being illegally fluoridated too or is that something your willing to blindly go along with?
"I suppose if your the government you can't really investigate yourself fairly... I like how you use the word "academic literature" and also attack Horowitz's credentials. I suppose your one of those silicon chips..."
Interesting that you can't spell. It's no wonder you're taken in by Horowitz, a man who has his facts wrong on numerous counts, as I've outlined below.
The fact remains that he's making slanderous, even dangerous, claims based on false evidence and profiting in the process.
2/4ths human dna platform, 1/4ths swine dna platform, 1/4ths avian dna platform
further more the dna is of cauc-asian ancestry, the swine dna is euaropean and the avian is asian, so for this to form in nature, it would need to traverse the world at least 4- 6 times for natural recombination to occur. given the fact that it is never been seen before is "nuff-proof".
....... uh idiot....... you dont get this kind of dna recombination from nature, thats the proof this was a man-made bio-weapon.
"uh idiot....... you dont get this kind of dna recombination from nature, thats the proof this was a man-made bio-weapon. "
It's ironic that you'd call me an idiot when out of the two of us I'm the only one who knows that the transmission chain between avians, pigs and humans has been well established for decades now. This isn't the first time we've run into swine flu.
Influenza jumps species from pigs to humans. That's what it does.
Intelligent people in science have the integrity to cite the references by which they advance their theories and conclusions. You have cited nothing except your bias and ignorance.
"Interesting. I wondered what that guy's name was. He was accused of engineering AIDs in revenge for the collapse of Aparteid South Africa."
Yeah, well, those guys accuse everyone of everything. The problem always comes when it's time to produce proof of the accusations, whereupon not quite so much is forthcoming.
Basson's court testimony is rather horrifying. Have you read it?
Ultimately, you are stubbornly and irrationally lending your trust to people and organizations that have continually violated it. I don't care how many books you've read, as sucker is a sucker. Anyway, it was fun insulting you and pointing out your contradictions until you ran away. Have a pleasant day.
So if you want to get specific, you have to address which variant of SIV are we discussing? As I suggested, if deliberate manipulation of naturally occuring viruses is involved, then it alters all the rules of the game and makes tracing origin that much more confusing and difficult.
"HIV does derive from SIV. Otherwise, you need to explain how SIV is endemic in most monkey populations."
SIV like BLV and visna are endemic naturally occuring viruses. SIV is not infective to humans per CDC. Whether these viruses have been manipulated in a bio-warfare project would alter all the parameters of the game.
"Also, do you think we could tie 9/11and the Trilateral Commission and the Thule Gesselschaft into this somehow? The conspiracy isn't nebulous enough, some more factors need to be thrown into the mix in order to make it interesting."
9/11 may have been an inside job. It fits with the genocidal world-view. As to Thule Gesselschaft, well the early CIA was composed of nazis like Gehlen and Skorzeny and Klaus Barbie ;)
Henry Kissinger was a member of the trilateral commission. How's that?
"9/11 may have been an inside job. It fits with the genocidal world-view. As to Thule Gesselschaft, well the early CIA was composed of nazis like Gehlen and Skorzeny and Klaus Barbie ;)"
Right. Aren't actual facts far, FAR more disturbing than vague conjecture?
There are enough actual facts, and enough real smoking guns, that it's unnecessary for Horowitz to even lie. But he does so anyway.
So you acknowledge the overwhelming evidence that suggests government involvement in certain terrorist attacks, yet you're being this closed-minded about the question of AIDS's origins? I'm starting to wonder if you're just an insane person. You'll recognize the connections between The bushes, the CIA and the nazis, and yet top secret biological warfare research is just too much for you to swallow? You're a sad piece of crap dude.
"The bushes, the CIA and the nazis, and yet top secret biological warfare research is just too much for you to swallow? You're a sad piece of crap dude."
Once again, you show your dismal problem with reading comprehension. Read what I've said again-- very, very slowly and carefully, perhaps with the aid of a ruler so that you don't lose your place-- and this time, try to understand what I've said.
My issue here is very specific and has to do with Horowitz's disregard for the facts.
More cheap nonsense from you. I'm pleased to see that the Dr. Horowitz himself has decided to respond to your foolishness. Instead of simply disagreeing respectfully, you insist on painting him as a quack, which he is not.
I did not say anywhere that SIV was not related to HIV. I said HIV may not derive from SIV, but SIV may come from HIV.
"The HTLVs are closer to the bovine leukemia virus (BLV) than to SIV/HIV. Genetic analyses have confirmed Montagnier's hypothesis that the AIDS virus is linked to the lentaviruses, namely to the visna virus, and the virus of equine infectious anemia (EIAV), and not to Gallo's two HTLV species."
~History of AIDS By Mirko D. Grmek, Russell C. Maulitz, Jacalyn Duffin p. 144
"I said HIV may not derive from SIV, but SIV may come from HIV."
HIV does derive from SIV. Otherwise, you need to explain how SIV is endemic in most monkey populations. Did the shadow government manufacture a noninfective strain and put it there? Rabies is often carried quite harmlessly by bats. When they bite a human, the human dies.
""The HTLVs are closer to the bovine leukemia virus (BLV) than to SIV/HIV. Genetic analyses have confirmed Montagnier's hypothesis that the AIDS virus is linked to the lentaviruses, namely to the visna virus, and the virus of equine infectious anemia (EIAV), and not to Gallo's two HTLV species."
This is incorrect-- HIV has been found to be serologically nearly identical to SIV. Since 1990 Grmek's work in this regard has been largely debunked.
You're the one who came out in favor of eugenics, so i really don't know why you're accusing me of trying to tie in outlandish conspiracy theories. Nice try though, Professor.
Also, i'm not trying to argue 'techincal virology' with anyone. I simply take issue with you accusation that Horowitz is 'disregarding' the facts. I disagree. I think he is WEIGHING the facts, and reaching the only rational conclusion that can be drawn from them. I'll be the first to admit that my knowledge of biology and virology is quite limited, but you don't need a degree in biology to absorb the many common sense facts exposed by Dr. Horowitz in this video.
As I've said numerous times, the issue of biological warfare is SO important that, while Horowitz certainly has a right to raise questions, his disregard for the facts muddies the waters and adds confusion where none is necessary.
He would be much better served to concentrate on hantavirus, Biopreparat/Vektor and Michael Hatfill.
You can't argue this subject without knowing the subject matter. That's like trying to argue math with someone who knows calculus when you don't understand fractions.
This fact may help explain why you're having so much trouble.
Wow, i didn't think it could get any more pathetic than correcting someone's spelling, but there ya have it. Mimicry. Repeating what i type, like a three year old? Really? C'mon, professor.. you sure you're supposed to be teaching this class? I agree you can't argue the subject without knowing the subject matter. Which is why i just got done explaining to you that i'm not arguing with over this subject. I'm ATTACKING you over it, because i clearly recognize your narrowmindedness and shallow
"Wow, i didn't think it could get any more pathetic than correcting someone's spelling, but there ya have it. Mimicry. "
Another incoherent screed.
BornCitizen, interesting talking to you. Maybe we can continue this later once the child's mother has bundled him off to his Alex Jones playgroup. Ta ta for now.
Again, nice try professor. Way to try to make amends after arguing like a Monsanto spokesperson for four hours. Loser. And the only thing that's incoherent is your childish argumentative tactics. You're what's called an educated idiot. You are to be pitied. "ta ta"? fuckin queer.
interpretations of simple facts, such as the long history of governments experimenting with chemical and biological weaponry, which should at least cause a rational individual to give pause and realize the completely discrediting the view of Horowitz is simply impossible. Because he's right. Perhaps not entirely, but essential his world view is correct. Deal with it, Professor.
"If he had said "The US practices witchcraft to spread AIDS," would you still be saying "Well, his thesis is basically correct?" There's no hard evidence supporting any of this, and his claims are wildly ludicrous."
Dr. Robert Gallo worked for Fort Detrick bio warfare lab. That fact alone condemns AIDS as forever bearing the stench of possible US manufacture as a bio weapon.
first of all, the entire notion of our planet being overpopulated is faulty, as it is based on two assumptions: 1. that people need to live in condensed urban centers, and 2. that our current means of distributing wealth and food is the only viable method. the reality is that most of the world is uninhabited by humans, in the literal sense.
Pale, maybe that's why BornCitizen has addressed everything from ARENA to HAARP to marijuana. Maybe we will next talk about the price of fly shit in Karachi."
It's not a debate that anyone can win or lose. Sadly, these many facts underscore a political world-view of elitism and exploitation wherein one can establish pattern and intent to cause massive population die-offs. It's as pertinent as possible to the issue of AIDS as a pandemic bio weapon.
"It's as pertinent as possible to the issue of AIDS as a pandemic bio weapon. "
So now you're claiming again that HIV is not related to SIV, which you claim is noninfective in humans (a false statement) but that it was somehow engineered in the lab during the early 1970s?
Am I really hearing you right?
Do you know how many viruses there are? Do you know how many they killed in the 20th century alone? Do you know how many very frightening outbreaks there have been of unknown cause?
"I support population reduction programs. I don't support mass-murder."
This is a euphemism like Endlosung. When I speak of population reduction, I don't mean birth control only. I mean the unethical philosophical intent to kill innocent people because they are of low value or have something you want, like oil.
"This is a euphemism like Endlosung. When I speak of population reduction, I don't mean birth control only. I mean the unethical philosophical intent to kill innocent people because they are of low value or have something you want, like oil."
When I talk about population reduction programs, I am typically referring to condom distribution, education of women, womens' reproductive rights and family planning.
"The thesis he's promoting is based on zero evidence."
There is evidence. You don't even think that the presence of Dr. Gallo/Fort Detrick isn't smoking gun?
The only way you can debunk this theory is based on science which is not manipulated by deception from the very scientists and corporations who conduct and establish the research.
Even the fact the French team co-discovered HTLV3 with Dr. Gallo is a manipulation. They replicated his results using his provided lab specimens.
"You don't even think that the presence of Dr. Gallo/Fort Detrick isn't smoking gun?"
I think it's suspicious, except for the fact that Detrick and doctors from USAMRIID etc were very concerned at the spread of HIV within the US as a possible national security threat.
"Even the fact the French team co-discovered HTLV3 with Dr. Gallo is a manipulation. They replicated his results using his provided lab specimens."
"No, you said that there was a population reduction plan in place, which there is not.
I think there should be. How about them apples?"
- carcosa
No, I really don't have a reading comprehension problem, friend. That's you, right there. just moments ago on the youtube. Supporting the notion of mass murder. It is fun to watch you squirm around that fact, though.
Oh, my me, allow me to clarify.. carcosa does NOT support mass murder.. only other means of population reduction. liiike, what, exactly? are you in favor of forcing women to abort pregnancies, if they've already beared the amount of children that is allowed by the state? Or perhaps you support sterilizing certain males upon birth.. and of course we'd need some kind of qualification process.. to separate the good genes from the bad.. You're a eugenicist. right outa the jackass's mouth
"are you in favor of forcing women to abort pregnancies, if they've already beared the amount of children that is allowed by the state? Or perhaps you support sterilizing certain males upon birth.. and of course we'd need some kind of qualification process.."
Wow, you're a nutjob! Such anger and helpless rage!
anger and helpless rage.. exactly what a shill like you must feel, regurgitating eugenicist tag lines. And you talk about condoms as if that's in the same category. There's a difference between birth CONTROL and population REDUCTION, professor.
"And you talk about condoms as if that's in the same category."
No, that's you, projecting your own hate and rage onto someone else. Aren't there some "Alex Jones, Liberty Crusader" comic books that you could go and read or something while the adults have a civil conversation?
Trolling the video of an author you disagree with, instead of posting your own video, coherently refuting his positions, is far from civil, so you should go ahead and get started on fucking yourself, you uptight wanabe voice of reason. And no, actually that's you as I didn't mention condoms at all, except in response to your moronic equation of condoms with the concept of population reduction. we all know what you meant when you said you support it. Quit backpeddling, Professor.
You keep focusing on Horowitz as if he owns these issues. It isn't about him, you imbecile. Again, you're playing the 1950's moral high ground by criticizing my profanity, but as i've already demonstrated, you yourself are prone to using terms such ass "ASSFUCK" sooo.. hypocrite? i think yes. "anger and rancor".. really, dude? You're really guna play the 'you're mad!' card? So much for your 'civil' conversation. What a clown you are.
Also, do you think we could tie 9/11and the Trilateral Commission and the Thule Gesselschaft into this somehow? The conspiracy isn't nebulous enough, some more factors need to be thrown into the mix in order to make it interesting.
"Another nonsequitur. And you're contradicting your own thesis.
Biowar is war on the cheap."
It doesn't matter if bio warfare is cheap. The fact remains that the US economy is shunted into funding weapons of mass destruction. Depleted uranium is cheap too. And your point is?
The US govt has no respect for life, no respect for the planet, and is contradicting the very essence of the Constitution and everything that Democracy was intended to represent.
Right, you don't care about his disregard for the facts."
Well you just keep nitpicking his retrovirology and ignore the thesis he is promoting, namely that the US government is in the business of killing people and disturbing facts exist which may well show CIA involvement in AIDS.
That right there is REASONABLE DOUBT, because the US government has been involved in genocides for decades. Kudos to Horowitz for sounding the alarm.
"Well you just keep nitpicking his retrovirology and ignore the thesis he is promoting"
The thesis he's promoting is based on zero evidence. His ridiculous claims about virology are only part of the problem.
Have you actually read his book?
If he had said "The US practices witchcraft to spread AIDS," would you still be saying "Well, his thesis is basically correct?" There's no hard evidence supporting any of this, and his claims are wildly ludicrous.
"Yes-- in fact this whole recent subject has been your attempt to establish a specific population reduction program."
I never said there was a "specific program." I said there was a pattern of genocidal population reduction programs throughout the history of the USA and from the outset included programs other than viral. How do you think 2% of the world's population controls 98% of the world's wealth?
The US has invested more money into Military expenditure than China and Russia combined.
"How do you think 2% of the world's population controls 98% of the world's wealth? '
Another non-sequitur.
"The US has invested more money into Military expenditure than China and Russia combined. "
Another nonsequitur. And you're contradicting your own thesis.
Biowar is war on the cheap. Once the technology is in place, biowar is CHEAP AS BEER. The reason our military is so expensive is because of its reliance on vastly expensive weapons programs and nuclear weapons.
"We're not talking about that larger issue. We're talking about Leonard Horowitz and his disregard for the facts."
I don't care about Dr. Horowitz other than the fact he pointed out serious concerns regarding the murderous intent of Corporate military-industrial USA.
It 's your disregard for the CIA's decades of slaughter which is astounding. The very actions of the CIA lends plausibility to bio warfare as a means of eradicating undesirable populations.
I said there was an agenda, not necessarily specific and narrow in scope, and hence including the waste of human life for the exploitation of wealth and resources. I did not say something exclusionary and innacurate due to over specificity like, "The US ONLY uses weapons grade viruses to kill off half the planet."
So it's on record. carcosa supports the murder of human beings for the purpose of population reduction. Credibility gone. Everything you've said and will say should be weighed against the fact that you're pro-eugenics.
Also, I've asked you 3 times now if you have your mask. Do you? Regardless of the source, it's only a matter of time until we have a viral pandemic, as we have countless times throughout human history.
Pale, maybe that's why BornCitizen has addressed everything from ARENA to HAARP to marijuana. Maybe we will next talk about the price of fly shit in Karachi.
It's hard to lose a debate when you're the only one who knows anything whatsoever about the subject matter. I'm sorry this fact makes you so enraged.
"No, there is no causal chain between right-wing puppet dictatorships and the idea that HIV was created in US government labs.
Are you going to start talking about marijuana again soon?"
The causal relationship between engineered bio warfare viruses is part of a larger issue of supporting depopulation of third world countries to exploit their economies. That America wastes resources prosecuting medical Marijuana while funding trillions of dollars into horror weapons isproof of it's insanity.
"The causal relationship between engineered bio warfare viruses is part of a larger issue of supporting depopulation of third world countries to exploit their economies."
We're not talking about that larger issue. We're talking about Leonard Horowitz and his disregard for the facts.
"That America wastes resources prosecuting medical Marijuana while funding trillions of dollars into horror weapons isproof of it's insanity."
This statement is absolutely true. US drug policy is insane.
"Wouldn't you expect a deliberate population reduction program to be a little more efficient than a million over many decades?"
I gave an example of South America. If you want to factor in all the genocides the US has taken part in since it's inception, including slavery and the massacre of Indians, the figure would be far higher.
There isn't a "specific plan" over decades, rather a philosophy that certain people's lives are more valuable than others and that some can be killed for profit.
But I thought you said that there was. Yes-- in fact this whole recent subject has been your attempt to establish a specific population reduction program.
"you still have not established any causal chain and you still have not produced any hard evidence, while there are abundant alternative explanations."
A causal chain? You mean puppet regimes backed by the CIA and Death Squads trained at the school of the Americas is not a causal chain?
When genocidal murder is bought and paid for by the American government, something is wrong with that government.
Oh really? Then I guess training the torturers and murderers of thousands was not a population reduction program. And if you multiply the thousands killed by Death Squads from Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, you could easily come close to a million dead.
"Then I guess training the torturers and murderers of thousands was not a population reduction program."
Once again one of these bizarre logical leaps.
The fact that they trained them did not make it a population reduction program. The fact that we advised Saddam Hussein during the Halabja bombardment did not make that a population reduction program.
Wouldn't you expect a deliberate population reduction program to be a little more efficient than a million over many decades?
"This is not established. Explain why they would do this at the same time as spending billions eradicating smallpox and numerous other viral diseases and parasites."
Because what the American public wants and votes for, what ethical doctors and scientists dedicate their lives to, what congressmen want to be known for, and what the military intelligence community does are contradictory.
Why we have bombs that can destroy life on the planet after we have done humanitarian good?
"Because what the American public wants and votes for, what ethical doctors and scientists dedicate their lives to, what congressmen want to be known for, and what the military intelligence community does are contradictory."
That's all certainly true but you still have not established any causal chain and you still have not produced any hard evidence, while there are abundant alternative explanations.
Kissinger = Zionism... lets see.. in 1938 Kissingers family fled germany because they were jewish and blah blah.... yet wait a minute... after ww2 he was responsible for bringing all the nazi scientists to america, i have heard a lot of the camps and projects in nazi germany were run by jewish individuals there were even jewish officers that hitler personally pardoned... there was a synagogue in berlin that functioned the entire time and a rabbi from poland was brought in for weddings and such
gilligan80 1 month ago
That kissinger should be repeatedly gang raped then allowed to heal then gang raped and so on...the sick fuck would probbly enjoy it
SAJJ28 5 months ago
I know that modern medicine is all about business and big money. They do NOT care about your health or curing any disease. Just making trillions in profits for multinational corporate giants from death, disease, and human misery.
youngdones 8 months ago
Power son. It should read.
RapedByRepublicans 8 months ago
Power soon, people get hung up on the money end but it isn't that. Its power.
RapedByRepublicans 8 months ago
why do people make schemes to hugley epic proportions to make dozens of millions of dollars each person, whats with the money hungriness that all old white men seek? someone tell me, whathappens when you get so incredibly rich? what simply get a huge flatscreen in a huge mansion or is there like a portal to your dreams or something because these douchbags are deibratley fucking everybody over for some reason, it better be better than individual materialism
SurfbyShootin 8 months ago
i hate liars like obama!
MrZionistjew 11 months ago
all those europeans are into to things like this.
heckler171 1 year ago
Dr Horowitz, you are great
as a medical doctor, in search for the truth about cancer and Aids, Autism
I learned a lot from you and Ed. HASLAM
keep the good work and spreading light into our dark age.
albertsneijMD 1 year ago
@albertsneijMD Gallo is not a medical doctor. He's a dentist who makes part of his money by selling bullshit homeopathic quackery. The rest of it comes from defaming the profession of virology for an audience of credulous fools who will believe anything.
nomadtrash88 1 year ago
Comment removed
albertsneijMD 1 year ago
These zionist eugenicists are pure evil. Nazis are boy scouts compared to them.
Quex01 1 year ago
anyone heard of anonymous if this is for real they should do something
EvolvedHuman 1 year ago
What can we do to stop these Psychopaths? I understand that gaining knowledge about the problems is the first step. But once we get this info - What are we to do with it? How do we apply it? Other than feeling overwhelmed by it? We need practical steps on how to fight these Nazis. Basic things we can ALL begin doing for SOLUTIONS.
greatbydesign33 1 year ago
@greatbydesign33 Start a new colony somewhere. Build some bunkers. I don't know.
futoncat 1 year ago
Dr. Gallo had such a look of arrogant unconcern on his face as he listened to the question and as he lied through his teeth in this interview, I felt like punching his evil face in. I have mistrusted recombinant DNA research from the first moment I heard of it; knowing in my bones that those in it were up to no good.
olga2415 1 year ago
Dr Gallo is an extremely evil individual. These are the type of people at the public trough feeding on our tax dollars under the guise of research.
klard 1 year ago
I just realized that these ppl. have weird looking fingers like the doctor Galo has, deformed. And that Dr.Galo is lying and trying to crawl out of trouble.
nemesis534 1 year ago
Thats interesting because i detected he was hiding something there.
Doversreturn 2 years ago
man that guy got way offended when he dropped that accusation on him,,,in his defense the guy sure does start to make out that our guy is a lunatic for raising the issue:)
ShitJitsu 2 years ago
My gosh, so many of the things this man is saying ties together many of the loose ends I've been a witness to in this life.
locatebob 2 years ago 3
colloidal silver is the cure for aids, leatril is the cure for cancer. Bouth drugs are ilegal and marked as dangerous poison.
You can buy silver in swis and you can find leatril in fruit seeds. Now think and make up your own mind. They said b15 is causing cancer, but you may find it in nuts. So are they nuts or is there some logical reason behind it? Think.
Wisdomspeeker 2 years ago
best have a look at bob beck,s work there
ShitJitsu 2 years ago
@Wisdomspeeker Where can we find documents on the cure for AIDS and cancer?
Troo44 1 year ago
the truth is that USA and Soviet scientists worked together continuously in secret at top levels of the governments. both countries even in public the scientists and doctors worked in collaboration with cancer. mainly on children in the Soviet Union, and infected many children and studied the disease, which resulted in many people with lymphoma in Russia, unusually high concentration of people with that disease. Along with other cancers as leukemia. My family member was infected & died of it.
candygir7 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Click on my youtube name to go to my channel and see a recent, extremely hard hitting interview on the absolute fraud and danger of vaccines -- and about a simple tool to viralize the truth about vaccines. The more people that know the truth, the harder it will be to force these vaccines on those of us that would rather put our trust in God, eating right, our own immune systems, faith & prayer -- rather than on Big Pharma and their veritable witches brews.
dconrad000 2 years ago
Dr leonard.. first of all let me tanck you for your eforts to the humanity health.
2nd ,i would like to ask you if ,the hepatite B vacinne can cause cancer in a long future time?
I´m asking this becouse it become a comon pratice and mandatory vacinne to litle childs as they born in several countries ,incluiding mine, portugal.
thancks for your time...i´m a huge fãn of your work.....thanck you again
streetwarrior31 2 years ago
Yet more kudos from people who can't spell their way out of a wet colostomy bag. How proud Horowitz, Dentist must be.
redleg70 2 years ago
Did you read well that i´m from POrtugal??
can you speack Portuguese...try...i need to laugh a bit....
By the way... do You know the way or do I need to send you with all the letters??
DR hOROWITZ DO THIS FOR ALL THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD....IT´S A LITLE?
SHOW US YOUR WORK.
streetwarrior31 2 years ago
Horowitz is lying-- full of shit.
The fact that you're from Portugal and speak better English than most of Horowitz's supporters doesn't advance your cause.
redleg70 2 years ago
I didnt say that the fact that i can speack a litle of english,its enouff evidences for suport anything.
I just said that becouse you´ve made this statement..""from people who can't spell their way out of a wet colostomy bag""
So why did you said that??
Didnt understand...i suposed that you were bashing me becouse of my grammar.
Sorry if it wasnt.
streetwarrior31 2 years ago
Everything he says is a lie? ahh I see!
gtfo troll
misterwolf29 2 years ago
Misterwolf: His claims don't add up on numerous points. How's your virology? Also, how's your evolutionary biology?
redleg70 2 years ago
Right because my qualifications, your insinuating I cant have an opinion on wether or not you troll the web day after day? that much is obvious AT LEAST. All I've seen you put on this matter is bunk. You cant back up your alligations with a single fact either so wtf is the point in retorting so pathetically.
misterwolf29 2 years ago
I wasn't insinuating that-- I was just wondering if we could have a meaningful discussion on the subject of viral evolution.
Probably, though, you'd be far better served with basic spelling and grammar classes.
redleg70 2 years ago
predictable troll reacts predictably
misterwolf29 2 years ago
4chan troll has nothing substantive to say and no qualifications on the subject.
Putting him in exactly the same ballpark as Len Horowitz, Dentist.
redleg70 2 years ago
This isn't JUST a prison planet, it's the human lab for these entities born of PURE UNADULTERATED EVIL & have not only made this place the, human lab of living hell...but hell itself!! The evil ones feed on the living to fill their bellies as human guts & blood drip from their feasting jaws as they share stories of conquests with each other.
What frigging planet, star, galaxy, or rock did these parasitic entities escaped or crawled out from anyway? They can't POSSIBLE BE humans...just can't be!!
Aprize0 2 years ago 12
Aprize: Do you have any evidence or are you just blathering insanely?
redleg70 2 years ago
redleg: proof, U want more proof than all before us? This isnt rocket science. Our bad if WE (the majority) don't wake up from the co-self-induced-hypnotic-sleep & replace the colostomy bag!! What more evidence is needed? Aren't public servants (minority) supposed to SERVE THE PUBLIC (majority)? Is that what's happening, did I miss the memo on that? Isnt duplicity, stealing, betrayal etc enough proof ? W/our heads in the sand & ass in the air colostomy bag has exploded!! (shit hits the fan)
Aprize0 2 years ago
Wasn't it the French that discovered the Aids virus?
NaturVita 2 years ago
Yes and this bastard stole the discovery
ed11561 2 years ago
just notice how gallo's face changes after after he understands the question at first (6.04-6:16)
dwaterpompe 2 years ago 6
This comment has received too many negative votes show
It's because he realizes how asinine the question is. At first he's giving Horowitz the benefit of the doubt, then he's not sure he's heard the question correctly because it's so stupid. Then he realizes he's heard the question right, and that Horowitz is a crackpot.
Horowitz is not a doctor. He's a dentist. But hey, if you are stupid enough to believe him, then follow his advice and avoid medical care.
carcosa 2 years ago
It is not about buying what leo is saying, is about 2 recognize that virus recombination is a natural process which is enhanced in its rate ones u find a common host, and mixing together different types and strains from distant origins as many of these dark side researchers have been doing for decades, situation which in normal condition would be almost impossible for that u don need molecular cloning
dwaterpompe 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
No, there's simply no support for Horowitz's claims which are in fact slanderous. If I were Gallo I would have sued his pants off-- he's made actionable statements repeatedly and continues to do so.
It would be very funny watching Len Horowitz, Dentist, arguing his case in front of a courtroom full of virologist expert witnesses.
carcosa 2 years ago
You would sue him exercising his freedom of speech? What kind of Nazi piece of shit are you? Run to your lawyer you intellectual coward!!!
codahh 2 years ago
I'm now in favor of Horowitz and his ilk telling people like you not to immunize yourselves against deadly diseases.
Don't use any antibiotics either.
carcosa 2 years ago
@dwaterpompe and those pigs are laughing when he says ''frankly i don't know what you're talking about''
alialio14 1 year ago
@alialio14 it was a nervous laugh i bet
stickmymasta 1 year ago
@dwaterpompe I saw it too, he is clearly in panic!!!!!
basmikiemike 1 year ago
anyone notice gallo's left hand pinky finger is deformed?, just like paulson's same left hand pinky finger, wonder if this is some nwo, pledge symbol(breaking of the left pinky fingers) anyone else have some input on this>?
milidude 2 years ago 3
Check out Ratzinger's thumb.
Much more likely though is that it just broke and was never fixed properly. Occam's Razor.
carcosa 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The rats are jumping ship.
CHEMRISK - a research company hired by the Corn Refiners has recently taken down it's YouTube page.
The removal was in response to negative public perception resulting from the high-fructose corn syrup ad campaign. Apparently it has become a liability to defend the sweetener.
See one of the last remaining ChemRisk videos at CornRefinersAssoc on YouTube.
BeaucoupRed 2 years ago
Where did Len Horowitz, Dentist, go?
Dentist, please prove your claims that work with recombinant DNA retroviology was going on in the 1960s and early 1970s.
What equipment were they using? Where was the foundational research required for this to happen?
BTW, your question to Gallo in this clip sounds completely insane. HIV is species-jumped SIV. It's not sheep leukemia virus.
Prove how ebola was developed pre-1967.
Or admit that you're a liar and shill.
carcosa 2 years ago
So on one hand we have a doctor and on the other hand, we have a doctor (dentists go to the SAME school)
...You know whois telling the truth when one attacks the other without using facts or reason.
One doctor says to the other doctor, "you need to take Bio 101"
hmmm...
leathertanner 2 years ago
"You know whois telling the truth when one attacks the other without using facts or reason."
Like how horowitz makes all manner of bizarre claims about virology that don't match up chronologically?
Dentists don't know viruses from a hole in the head. Horowitz DOES need to take biology 101-- it might help him understand how ridiculous his claims about HIV and ebola origins are.
carcosa 2 years ago
#1"As a matter of fact, the government in the US, as flawed as it may be, is the only thing that DOES protect us from complete domination by corporations.
#2You rail about Monsanto-- Monsanto is a great example of subversion of the government by corporate interests. The government in that case abdicated their responsibility."
The Government protects us or it doesn't.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"The Government protects us or it doesn't. "
Surely you're not that stupid. One thing the government does do, or is supposed to do, is to protect us from quack doctors.
Another is to vaccinate our children so that they don't DIE of diseases that were all but wiped out until antivac quacks like Horowitz got people to stop vaccinating their children.
The government protections don't always work. They can only protect the willing, after all.
carcosa 2 years ago
I wonder how many people will die in the coming months because Horowitz and others like him persuaded them to fear the World Health Organization.
Me, I'm taking vaccines when they're offered. Len, I hope you avoided yours. Please stick with that prayer stuff, and please get other vaccine-avoiding christians to congregate with you in large numbers.
After all, shouldn't you all be praying together in groups so Jesus can protect you better?
carcosa 2 years ago
There is no vaccine for a rapidly mutating influenza. Horowitz didn't make up lies about the criminal negligence of major US corporations including medicine and pharma.
What's you thing about bashing religion? I'm an atheist, and I could care less what someone believes. But if you think that Big govt is here to protect anybody, you're deluded. Big gov't protects the big industries including their criminal negligence and gross misconduct. What it doesn't protect...is you.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
As a matter of fact, the government in the US, as flawed as it may be, is the only thing that DOES protect us from complete domination by corporations. You rail about Monsanto-- Monsanto is a great example of subversion of the government by corporate interests. The government in that case abdicated their responsibility. It's not so much the fault of government itself, though-- the problem is that they are supposed to be governing but aren't.
carcosa 2 years ago
"What's you thing about bashing religion?"
Horowitz's lies about prophesy and faith healing further destroy his credibility. If he doesn't have any real proof-- and he doesn't-- he shouldn't be blathering about it.
carcosa 2 years ago
"Horowitz didn't make up lies about the criminal negligence of major US corporations including medicine and pharma."
No, the man is a quack selling quack cures and conspiracy theories to an audience of credulous dupes.
His lies about the evils of the medical profession are very likely to be getting people killed in the event of any major epidemic (like maybe a couple of weeks hence).
The man must like rubella, whooping cough, measles, mumps and polio.
And smallpox.
carcosa 2 years ago
I don't think he likes any of those things but you can't bash someone just because they are exposing corrupt businesses for who they are. you can't deny what happened in the past. since u claim this man is only telling lies, then come with the information to debunk him. the medical and pharmaceutical profession has corruption just like every other industry. only this is far more important as the whole nation trusts these companies with their lives.
shaydm06 2 years ago
"you can't bash someone just because they are exposing corrupt businesses"
I'm just bashing him for playing fast and loose with the facts and telling parents not to vaccinate their children for polio, while profiting in the process.
carcosa 2 years ago
Comment removed
carcosa 2 years ago
"But once again, there's no proof, only circumstantial evidence."
If someone commits a murder with an unusual, never before seen black, purple and green pearl handled revolver. And that person was caught marching around with a black, purple and green pearly handled revolver...
it could stand up in a murder trial.
That revolver is the never before seen mix of human, swine and bird flu viruses. We can't prove Agent Orange caused cancer either. But it did.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
H5N1 isn't transmitted to humans via respiratory contact but hand to mouth thru contact with bird droppings. The one factor that was being watched for it's pandemic potential was for it to mutate to human to human respiratory contact.
What do you think about scientists who make flu shots putting that virus in with respiratory transmitted human virus?
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"H5N1 isn't transmitted to humans via respiratory contact but hand to mouth thru contact with bird droppings. "
I don't know where you're getting your information but human to human transmission of H5N1 is airborne.
"What do you think about scientists who make flu shots putting that virus in with respiratory transmitted human virus? "
Well, I think that considering the extremely primitive state of virology, these cocktail vaccines are extremely disturbing. They have NO FUCKING CLUE.
carcosa 2 years ago
As to the plausibility factor of whether or not Aids is a manufactured bio weapon, consider this:
Baxter "accidentally" ships flu shots to 18 countries that are a Frankenstein mix of human, swine and bird flu virus.
And now Baxter is working with the WHO to create a vaccine for this anticipated pandemic outbreak of an unusual strain of swine, bird and human flu viruses.
The one thing bird flu isn't is airborne, yet here you have scientists mixing the strains and providing them as flu vaccines.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"The one thing bird flu isn't is airborne"
This is not the case... H5N1 is airborne as are all flu strains.
That Baxter incident was one of the most disturbing thing I've heard in a while. Maybe one of those shipments got through to Mexico.
But once again, there's no proof, only circumstantial evidence.
carcosa 2 years ago
Comment removed
DrLenHorowitz 2 years ago
No, I have actually read your book. I read it when it first came out, and I think it was a badly written, badly researched, self-published piece of trash in which you libel much of the legitimate medical profession based on extremely shaky evidence.
You are not promoting science but insane conspiracy paranoia, apocalypse fear and woo-woo religious drivel, as you well know. "AIDS and Ebola" was bad enough. Now your "work" is pure fear-mongering hucksterism.
carcosa 2 years ago
Badly researched? The controversies he pointed out involving early AIDS research can still be found in journals. The bio weapons research he uncovered is ground breaking.
You should have the integrity to admit if the manufacture of AIDS isn't persuasive to you from a retrovirology perspective, at least there is compelling anecdotal evidence for a realistic potential from the biowarfare perspective.
Attacking Dr Horowitz personally doesn't end the controversies. Stop the straw man attacks!
BornCitizen 2 years ago 2
Perhaps you'll be good enough to let Horowitz address my questions for himself, surely he doesn't need you to defend him...?
carcosa 2 years ago
It's a forum. If you want a personal discussion then send him emails.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
Then you can go on to provide a logical chain proving your bible code bullshit. That should be even more interesting to hear.
carcosa 2 years ago
Gematriya is a respectable Jewish tradition. Are you antisemitic? I don't believe in Bible codes personally, but why do his personal religious belief offend you or negate his research into intelligence services bio weapon ops?
How can you attack someones credibility on the basis of their personal religious beliefs? That's just dumb.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
Gematriya is a respectable jewish tradition as walking around with bones stuck through noses is a respectable tradition of Trobriand witchdoctors.
As you well know, it's a pile of shit. But the real problem comes when you start trying to sell quack health remedies based on bullshit from the Bronze Age, and trying to tell people to eschew modern medicine. If you don't see a problem with that, perhaps it's you who should seek treatment of some sort.
carcosa 2 years ago
If that is the case, why don't you find a video of questionable health remedies and protest that instead of protesting a video about govt manipulation of AIDS?
I have no disrespect for gematriya. There are people who believe Jesus can heal them. None of it has anything to do with what is presented in this video.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"I have no disrespect for gematriya. There are people who believe Jesus can heal them. None of it has anything to do with what is presented in this video."
It has to do with Horowitz's willingness to play fast and loose with the facts. The man has a credibility problem.
carcosa 2 years ago
Having a religious belief has nothing to do with the attacks on his honesty. It doesn't have any relationship to the troubling facts he exposes involving memos from drug companies or Gallo working for Fort Detrick.
Give it a break. It's not even interesting. We have a new manipulated outbreak going on that IS worth investigating.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"Having a religious belief has nothing to do with the attacks on his honesty. "
The man's faith healing claims are no different than someone claiming that diseases are caused by the Easter Bunny. Give me a break.
"Give it a break. It's not even interesting. We have a new manipulated outbreak going on that IS worth investigating. "
Manipulated? Where's your proof, or is that just another of those proofless postulations that you throw around so often?
carcosa 2 years ago
where's your proof that it's not manipulated? oh yeah the lying media that is controlled by the govt. were you there in mexico when the virus first broke out? i doubt it.
shaydm06 2 years ago
"where's your proof that it's not manipulated?"
That's not how proof works. When we make a claim (like "swine flu was biowar") we have to provide proof for the assertion. It's not the party demanding proof that has to provide proof :)
In this case, there is no proof whatsoever that this was any sort of biowar release-- it simply does not fit the profile. On the other hand, there is much academic literature and evidence pointing to the likelihood that this outbreak began on a factory farm.
carcosa 2 years ago
carcosa,
so are you one of those that believes everyone is a conspiracy theorist?
I suppose if your the government you can't really investigate yourself fairly so everything is an act of treason. I like how you use the word "academic literature" and also attack Horowitz's credentials. I suppose your one of those silicon chips that only believe the official story. Do you refute that we are being illegally fluoridated too or is that something your willing to blindly go along with?
satanic6ritual 2 years ago
"I suppose if your the government you can't really investigate yourself fairly... I like how you use the word "academic literature" and also attack Horowitz's credentials. I suppose your one of those silicon chips..."
Interesting that you can't spell. It's no wonder you're taken in by Horowitz, a man who has his facts wrong on numerous counts, as I've outlined below.
The fact remains that he's making slanderous, even dangerous, claims based on false evidence and profiting in the process.
carcosa 2 years ago
2/4ths human dna platform, 1/4ths swine dna platform, 1/4ths avian dna platform
further more the dna is of cauc-asian ancestry, the swine dna is euaropean and the avian is asian, so for this to form in nature, it would need to traverse the world at least 4- 6 times for natural recombination to occur. given the fact that it is never been seen before is "nuff-proof".
....... uh idiot....... you dont get this kind of dna recombination from nature, thats the proof this was a man-made bio-weapon.
milidude 2 years ago
"uh idiot....... you dont get this kind of dna recombination from nature, thats the proof this was a man-made bio-weapon. "
It's ironic that you'd call me an idiot when out of the two of us I'm the only one who knows that the transmission chain between avians, pigs and humans has been well established for decades now. This isn't the first time we've run into swine flu.
Influenza jumps species from pigs to humans. That's what it does.
carcosa 2 years ago
I have and I thought it was honest and amazing. Kudos to you sir for the courage to counter the mainstream view!
BornCitizen 2 years ago
So you libel me by calling me a liar....
You speak of science, but where is yours?
Intelligent people in science have the integrity to cite the references by which they advance their theories and conclusions. You have cited nothing except your bias and ignorance.
DrLenHorowitz 2 years ago
You can start by proving your claim that Ebola was somehow engineered. How did they perform such a feat in 1967? Inquiring minds want to know.
carcosa 2 years ago
It's been fun.
"Look into Wouter Basson, his connections with pharma AGs and with Hatfill under the Botha administration."
Interesting. I wondered what that guy's name was. He was accused of engineering AIDs in revenge for the collapse of Aparteid South Africa. Later!
"Monsanto spokesperson"
LOL. No wait, that's a non sequitur ;)
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"Interesting. I wondered what that guy's name was. He was accused of engineering AIDs in revenge for the collapse of Aparteid South Africa."
Yeah, well, those guys accuse everyone of everything. The problem always comes when it's time to produce proof of the accusations, whereupon not quite so much is forthcoming.
Basson's court testimony is rather horrifying. Have you read it?
carcosa 2 years ago
Ultimately, you are stubbornly and irrationally lending your trust to people and organizations that have continually violated it. I don't care how many books you've read, as sucker is a sucker. Anyway, it was fun insulting you and pointing out your contradictions until you ran away. Have a pleasant day.
paleopeneyes 2 years ago
So if you want to get specific, you have to address which variant of SIV are we discussing? As I suggested, if deliberate manipulation of naturally occuring viruses is involved, then it alters all the rules of the game and makes tracing origin that much more confusing and difficult.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"HIV does derive from SIV. Otherwise, you need to explain how SIV is endemic in most monkey populations."
SIV like BLV and visna are endemic naturally occuring viruses. SIV is not infective to humans per CDC. Whether these viruses have been manipulated in a bio-warfare project would alter all the parameters of the game.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"Also, do you think we could tie 9/11and the Trilateral Commission and the Thule Gesselschaft into this somehow? The conspiracy isn't nebulous enough, some more factors need to be thrown into the mix in order to make it interesting."
9/11 may have been an inside job. It fits with the genocidal world-view. As to Thule Gesselschaft, well the early CIA was composed of nazis like Gehlen and Skorzeny and Klaus Barbie ;)
Henry Kissinger was a member of the trilateral commission. How's that?
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"9/11 may have been an inside job. It fits with the genocidal world-view. As to Thule Gesselschaft, well the early CIA was composed of nazis like Gehlen and Skorzeny and Klaus Barbie ;)"
Right. Aren't actual facts far, FAR more disturbing than vague conjecture?
There are enough actual facts, and enough real smoking guns, that it's unnecessary for Horowitz to even lie. But he does so anyway.
carcosa 2 years ago
So you acknowledge the overwhelming evidence that suggests government involvement in certain terrorist attacks, yet you're being this closed-minded about the question of AIDS's origins? I'm starting to wonder if you're just an insane person. You'll recognize the connections between The bushes, the CIA and the nazis, and yet top secret biological warfare research is just too much for you to swallow? You're a sad piece of crap dude.
paleopeneyes 2 years ago
"The bushes, the CIA and the nazis, and yet top secret biological warfare research is just too much for you to swallow? You're a sad piece of crap dude."
Once again, you show your dismal problem with reading comprehension. Read what I've said again-- very, very slowly and carefully, perhaps with the aid of a ruler so that you don't lose your place-- and this time, try to understand what I've said.
My issue here is very specific and has to do with Horowitz's disregard for the facts.
carcosa 2 years ago
More cheap nonsense from you. I'm pleased to see that the Dr. Horowitz himself has decided to respond to your foolishness. Instead of simply disagreeing respectfully, you insist on painting him as a quack, which he is not.
paleopeneyes 2 years ago
Out for now.
Look into Wouter Basson, his connections with pharma AGs and with Hatfill under the Botha administration.
There's some reality for you... reality is much more frightening than ghost stories.
carcosa 2 years ago
I did not say anywhere that SIV was not related to HIV. I said HIV may not derive from SIV, but SIV may come from HIV.
"The HTLVs are closer to the bovine leukemia virus (BLV) than to SIV/HIV. Genetic analyses have confirmed Montagnier's hypothesis that the AIDS virus is linked to the lentaviruses, namely to the visna virus, and the virus of equine infectious anemia (EIAV), and not to Gallo's two HTLV species."
~History of AIDS By Mirko D. Grmek, Russell C. Maulitz, Jacalyn Duffin p. 144
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"I said HIV may not derive from SIV, but SIV may come from HIV."
HIV does derive from SIV. Otherwise, you need to explain how SIV is endemic in most monkey populations. Did the shadow government manufacture a noninfective strain and put it there? Rabies is often carried quite harmlessly by bats. When they bite a human, the human dies.
carcosa 2 years ago
""The HTLVs are closer to the bovine leukemia virus (BLV) than to SIV/HIV. Genetic analyses have confirmed Montagnier's hypothesis that the AIDS virus is linked to the lentaviruses, namely to the visna virus, and the virus of equine infectious anemia (EIAV), and not to Gallo's two HTLV species."
This is incorrect-- HIV has been found to be serologically nearly identical to SIV. Since 1990 Grmek's work in this regard has been largely debunked.
Visna does not attack T-cells. SIV and HIV do.
carcosa 2 years ago
You're the one who came out in favor of eugenics, so i really don't know why you're accusing me of trying to tie in outlandish conspiracy theories. Nice try though, Professor.
paleopeneyes 2 years ago
"You're the one who came out in favor of eugenics"
I'm not in favor of eugenics.
"Nice try though, Professor."
Yes, this is someone who can't spell trying to argue technical virology with someone who can spell.
carcosa 2 years ago
I knew you'd go for the grammatical critique. The last refuge of a scoundrel. Hah.
paleopeneyes 2 years ago
Also, i'm not trying to argue 'techincal virology' with anyone. I simply take issue with you accusation that Horowitz is 'disregarding' the facts. I disagree. I think he is WEIGHING the facts, and reaching the only rational conclusion that can be drawn from them. I'll be the first to admit that my knowledge of biology and virology is quite limited, but you don't need a degree in biology to absorb the many common sense facts exposed by Dr. Horowitz in this video.
paleopeneyes 2 years ago
As I've said numerous times, the issue of biological warfare is SO important that, while Horowitz certainly has a right to raise questions, his disregard for the facts muddies the waters and adds confusion where none is necessary.
He would be much better served to concentrate on hantavirus, Biopreparat/Vektor and Michael Hatfill.
carcosa 2 years ago
You do, however, need common sense. This fact may help explain why you're having so much trouble.
paleopeneyes 2 years ago
"You do, however, need common sense."
You can't argue this subject without knowing the subject matter. That's like trying to argue math with someone who knows calculus when you don't understand fractions.
This fact may help explain why you're having so much trouble.
carcosa 2 years ago
Wow, i didn't think it could get any more pathetic than correcting someone's spelling, but there ya have it. Mimicry. Repeating what i type, like a three year old? Really? C'mon, professor.. you sure you're supposed to be teaching this class? I agree you can't argue the subject without knowing the subject matter. Which is why i just got done explaining to you that i'm not arguing with over this subject. I'm ATTACKING you over it, because i clearly recognize your narrowmindedness and shallow
paleopeneyes 2 years ago
"Wow, i didn't think it could get any more pathetic than correcting someone's spelling, but there ya have it. Mimicry. "
Another incoherent screed.
BornCitizen, interesting talking to you. Maybe we can continue this later once the child's mother has bundled him off to his Alex Jones playgroup. Ta ta for now.
carcosa 2 years ago
Again, nice try professor. Way to try to make amends after arguing like a Monsanto spokesperson for four hours. Loser. And the only thing that's incoherent is your childish argumentative tactics. You're what's called an educated idiot. You are to be pitied. "ta ta"? fuckin queer.
paleopeneyes 2 years ago
interpretations of simple facts, such as the long history of governments experimenting with chemical and biological weaponry, which should at least cause a rational individual to give pause and realize the completely discrediting the view of Horowitz is simply impossible. Because he's right. Perhaps not entirely, but essential his world view is correct. Deal with it, Professor.
paleopeneyes 2 years ago
"If he had said "The US practices witchcraft to spread AIDS," would you still be saying "Well, his thesis is basically correct?" There's no hard evidence supporting any of this, and his claims are wildly ludicrous."
Dr. Robert Gallo worked for Fort Detrick bio warfare lab. That fact alone condemns AIDS as forever bearing the stench of possible US manufacture as a bio weapon.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
first of all, the entire notion of our planet being overpopulated is faulty, as it is based on two assumptions: 1. that people need to live in condensed urban centers, and 2. that our current means of distributing wealth and food is the only viable method. the reality is that most of the world is uninhabited by humans, in the literal sense.
paleopeneyes 2 years ago
""Desperate attempt to change the subject"
Pale, maybe that's why BornCitizen has addressed everything from ARENA to HAARP to marijuana. Maybe we will next talk about the price of fly shit in Karachi."
It's not a debate that anyone can win or lose. Sadly, these many facts underscore a political world-view of elitism and exploitation wherein one can establish pattern and intent to cause massive population die-offs. It's as pertinent as possible to the issue of AIDS as a pandemic bio weapon.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"It's as pertinent as possible to the issue of AIDS as a pandemic bio weapon. "
So now you're claiming again that HIV is not related to SIV, which you claim is noninfective in humans (a false statement) but that it was somehow engineered in the lab during the early 1970s?
Am I really hearing you right?
Do you know how many viruses there are? Do you know how many they killed in the 20th century alone? Do you know how many very frightening outbreaks there have been of unknown cause?
carcosa 2 years ago
"I support population reduction programs. I don't support mass-murder."
This is a euphemism like Endlosung. When I speak of population reduction, I don't mean birth control only. I mean the unethical philosophical intent to kill innocent people because they are of low value or have something you want, like oil.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"This is a euphemism like Endlosung. When I speak of population reduction, I don't mean birth control only. I mean the unethical philosophical intent to kill innocent people because they are of low value or have something you want, like oil."
When I talk about population reduction programs, I am typically referring to condom distribution, education of women, womens' reproductive rights and family planning.
When you talk about it you mean gas vans.
Tomayto, tomahto.
carcosa 2 years ago
"The thesis he's promoting is based on zero evidence."
There is evidence. You don't even think that the presence of Dr. Gallo/Fort Detrick isn't smoking gun?
The only way you can debunk this theory is based on science which is not manipulated by deception from the very scientists and corporations who conduct and establish the research.
Even the fact the French team co-discovered HTLV3 with Dr. Gallo is a manipulation. They replicated his results using his provided lab specimens.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"You don't even think that the presence of Dr. Gallo/Fort Detrick isn't smoking gun?"
I think it's suspicious, except for the fact that Detrick and doctors from USAMRIID etc were very concerned at the spread of HIV within the US as a possible national security threat.
"Even the fact the French team co-discovered HTLV3 with Dr. Gallo is a manipulation. They replicated his results using his provided lab specimens."
Prove this.
carcosa 2 years ago
"No, you said that there was a population reduction plan in place, which there is not.
I think there should be. How about them apples?"
- carcosa
No, I really don't have a reading comprehension problem, friend. That's you, right there. just moments ago on the youtube. Supporting the notion of mass murder. It is fun to watch you squirm around that fact, though.
paleopeneyes 2 years ago
"Supporting the notion of mass murder. It is fun to watch you squirm around that fact, though. "
You have a severe reading comprehension problem. I support population reduction programs. I don't support mass-murder.
I will leave the reconciliation of those two facts to you as an exercise to improve your critical thinking ability.
carcosa 2 years ago
Oh, my me, allow me to clarify.. carcosa does NOT support mass murder.. only other means of population reduction. liiike, what, exactly? are you in favor of forcing women to abort pregnancies, if they've already beared the amount of children that is allowed by the state? Or perhaps you support sterilizing certain males upon birth.. and of course we'd need some kind of qualification process.. to separate the good genes from the bad.. You're a eugenicist. right outa the jackass's mouth
paleopeneyes 2 years ago
"are you in favor of forcing women to abort pregnancies, if they've already beared the amount of children that is allowed by the state? Or perhaps you support sterilizing certain males upon birth.. and of course we'd need some kind of qualification process.."
Wow, you're a nutjob! Such anger and helpless rage!
carcosa 2 years ago
anger and helpless rage.. exactly what a shill like you must feel, regurgitating eugenicist tag lines. And you talk about condoms as if that's in the same category. There's a difference between birth CONTROL and population REDUCTION, professor.
paleopeneyes 2 years ago
"And you talk about condoms as if that's in the same category."
No, that's you, projecting your own hate and rage onto someone else. Aren't there some "Alex Jones, Liberty Crusader" comic books that you could go and read or something while the adults have a civil conversation?
carcosa 2 years ago
Trolling the video of an author you disagree with, instead of posting your own video, coherently refuting his positions, is far from civil, so you should go ahead and get started on fucking yourself, you uptight wanabe voice of reason. And no, actually that's you as I didn't mention condoms at all, except in response to your moronic equation of condoms with the concept of population reduction. we all know what you meant when you said you support it. Quit backpeddling, Professor.
paleopeneyes 2 years ago
Ah, such anger and rancor!
"Trolling the video of an author you disagree with, instead of posting your own video, coherently refuting his positions, is far from civil"
Trolling? Hardly! I'm just pointing out that the man has his facts wrong on so many accounts that he is hardly a credible witness of anything!
Perhaps more profanity could be forthcoming from you in support of Horowitz. Do you also support his views on prayer healing and homeopathy?
carcosa 2 years ago
You keep focusing on Horowitz as if he owns these issues. It isn't about him, you imbecile. Again, you're playing the 1950's moral high ground by criticizing my profanity, but as i've already demonstrated, you yourself are prone to using terms such ass "ASSFUCK" sooo.. hypocrite? i think yes. "anger and rancor".. really, dude? You're really guna play the 'you're mad!' card? So much for your 'civil' conversation. What a clown you are.
paleopeneyes 2 years ago
Also, do you think we could tie 9/11and the Trilateral Commission and the Thule Gesselschaft into this somehow? The conspiracy isn't nebulous enough, some more factors need to be thrown into the mix in order to make it interesting.
carcosa 2 years ago
"Another nonsequitur. And you're contradicting your own thesis.
Biowar is war on the cheap."
It doesn't matter if bio warfare is cheap. The fact remains that the US economy is shunted into funding weapons of mass destruction. Depleted uranium is cheap too. And your point is?
The US govt has no respect for life, no respect for the planet, and is contradicting the very essence of the Constitution and everything that Democracy was intended to represent.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"I don't care about Dr. Horowitz other than..."
Right, you don't care about his disregard for the facts."
Well you just keep nitpicking his retrovirology and ignore the thesis he is promoting, namely that the US government is in the business of killing people and disturbing facts exist which may well show CIA involvement in AIDS.
That right there is REASONABLE DOUBT, because the US government has been involved in genocides for decades. Kudos to Horowitz for sounding the alarm.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"Well you just keep nitpicking his retrovirology and ignore the thesis he is promoting"
The thesis he's promoting is based on zero evidence. His ridiculous claims about virology are only part of the problem.
Have you actually read his book?
If he had said "The US practices witchcraft to spread AIDS," would you still be saying "Well, his thesis is basically correct?" There's no hard evidence supporting any of this, and his claims are wildly ludicrous.
carcosa 2 years ago
"Yes-- in fact this whole recent subject has been your attempt to establish a specific population reduction program."
I never said there was a "specific program." I said there was a pattern of genocidal population reduction programs throughout the history of the USA and from the outset included programs other than viral. How do you think 2% of the world's population controls 98% of the world's wealth?
The US has invested more money into Military expenditure than China and Russia combined.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"How do you think 2% of the world's population controls 98% of the world's wealth? '
Another non-sequitur.
"The US has invested more money into Military expenditure than China and Russia combined. "
Another nonsequitur. And you're contradicting your own thesis.
Biowar is war on the cheap. Once the technology is in place, biowar is CHEAP AS BEER. The reason our military is so expensive is because of its reliance on vastly expensive weapons programs and nuclear weapons.
carcosa 2 years ago
"We're not talking about that larger issue. We're talking about Leonard Horowitz and his disregard for the facts."
I don't care about Dr. Horowitz other than the fact he pointed out serious concerns regarding the murderous intent of Corporate military-industrial USA.
It 's your disregard for the CIA's decades of slaughter which is astounding. The very actions of the CIA lends plausibility to bio warfare as a means of eradicating undesirable populations.
Horowitz raises valid concerns.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"I don't care about Dr. Horowitz other than..."
Right, you don't care about his disregard for the facts.
"It 's your disregard for the CIA's decades of slaughter which is astounding."
What makes you think I disregard this? My regard or lack of regard for this has nothing whatsoever to do with Horowitz's disregard for the facts.
In fact, it's my very concern regarding these issues that makes me so annoyed when shills like Horowitz play fast-and-loose with facts and evidence.
carcosa 2 years ago
""There isn't a "specific plan" over decades,"
But I thought you said that there was."
I said there was an agenda, not necessarily specific and narrow in scope, and hence including the waste of human life for the exploitation of wealth and resources. I did not say something exclusionary and innacurate due to over specificity like, "The US ONLY uses weapons grade viruses to kill off half the planet."
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"I said there was an agenda"
No, you said that there was a population reduction plan in place, which there is not.
I think there should be. How about them apples?
carcosa 2 years ago
So it's on record. carcosa supports the murder of human beings for the purpose of population reduction. Credibility gone. Everything you've said and will say should be weighed against the fact that you're pro-eugenics.
paleopeneyes 2 years ago
"carcosa supports the murder of human beings for the purpose of population reduction. "
You have a reading comprehension problem.
carcosa 2 years ago
Also, I've asked you 3 times now if you have your mask. Do you? Regardless of the source, it's only a matter of time until we have a viral pandemic, as we have countless times throughout human history.
This one in Mexico City could very well be it.
carcosa 2 years ago
Masks, huh? Desperate attempt to change the subject because you're losing a debate, anyone?
paleopeneyes 2 years ago
"Desperate attempt to change the subject"
Pale, maybe that's why BornCitizen has addressed everything from ARENA to HAARP to marijuana. Maybe we will next talk about the price of fly shit in Karachi.
It's hard to lose a debate when you're the only one who knows anything whatsoever about the subject matter. I'm sorry this fact makes you so enraged.
carcosa 2 years ago
"No, there is no causal chain between right-wing puppet dictatorships and the idea that HIV was created in US government labs.
Are you going to start talking about marijuana again soon?"
The causal relationship between engineered bio warfare viruses is part of a larger issue of supporting depopulation of third world countries to exploit their economies. That America wastes resources prosecuting medical Marijuana while funding trillions of dollars into horror weapons isproof of it's insanity.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"The causal relationship between engineered bio warfare viruses is part of a larger issue of supporting depopulation of third world countries to exploit their economies."
We're not talking about that larger issue. We're talking about Leonard Horowitz and his disregard for the facts.
"That America wastes resources prosecuting medical Marijuana while funding trillions of dollars into horror weapons isproof of it's insanity."
This statement is absolutely true. US drug policy is insane.
carcosa 2 years ago
"When has the United States government paid for genocidal murder?"
When it financially and militarily propped up genocidal regimes.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"Wouldn't you expect a deliberate population reduction program to be a little more efficient than a million over many decades?"
I gave an example of South America. If you want to factor in all the genocides the US has taken part in since it's inception, including slavery and the massacre of Indians, the figure would be far higher.
There isn't a "specific plan" over decades, rather a philosophy that certain people's lives are more valuable than others and that some can be killed for profit.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"There isn't a "specific plan" over decades,"
But I thought you said that there was. Yes-- in fact this whole recent subject has been your attempt to establish a specific population reduction program.
carcosa 2 years ago
"you still have not established any causal chain and you still have not produced any hard evidence, while there are abundant alternative explanations."
A causal chain? You mean puppet regimes backed by the CIA and Death Squads trained at the school of the Americas is not a causal chain?
When genocidal murder is bought and paid for by the American government, something is wrong with that government.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"A causal chain? You mean puppet regimes backed by the CIA and Death Squads trained at the school of the Americas is not a causal chain?"
No, there is no causal chain between right-wing puppet dictatorships and the idea that HIV was created in US government labs.
Are you going to start talking about marijuana again soon?
carcosa 2 years ago
"When genocidal murder is bought and paid for by the American government, something is wrong with that government. "
When has the United States government paid for genocidal murder? Genocide has a specific definition.
carcosa 2 years ago
"it can be established that genocidal population reduction programs have been in place"
This is not established."
Have you ever heard of the School of the Americas?
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"Have you ever heard of the School of the Americas? "
Take a guess.
SOTA was not a population reduction program.
carcosa 2 years ago
Oh really? Then I guess training the torturers and murderers of thousands was not a population reduction program. And if you multiply the thousands killed by Death Squads from Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, you could easily come close to a million dead.
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"Then I guess training the torturers and murderers of thousands was not a population reduction program."
Once again one of these bizarre logical leaps.
The fact that they trained them did not make it a population reduction program. The fact that we advised Saddam Hussein during the Halabja bombardment did not make that a population reduction program.
Wouldn't you expect a deliberate population reduction program to be a little more efficient than a million over many decades?
carcosa 2 years ago
"This is not established. Explain why they would do this at the same time as spending billions eradicating smallpox and numerous other viral diseases and parasites."
Because what the American public wants and votes for, what ethical doctors and scientists dedicate their lives to, what congressmen want to be known for, and what the military intelligence community does are contradictory.
Why we have bombs that can destroy life on the planet after we have done humanitarian good?
BornCitizen 2 years ago
"Because what the American public wants and votes for, what ethical doctors and scientists dedicate their lives to, what congressmen want to be known for, and what the military intelligence community does are contradictory."
That's all certainly true but you still have not established any causal chain and you still have not produced any hard evidence, while there are abundant alternative explanations.
carcosa 2 years ago