I find it ironic that people think God is so much more loving because, instead of torturing people who don't believe in Him (when there's already zilch evidence), He will just destroy them to bits and Jesus will get very little back that He died for. Isn't He nice.
@ShatteredOnes92 You can't be serious.*Gulps*...OF COURSE it's so much more loving to kill unrepentant sinners than preserve them in unfathomable sadistic agony of the worst possible imaginable sort throughout all of eternity.Are you a sadist?Zilch evidence that the wicked will be reduced to ashes,perish,and be destroyed forever?Again,seriously?I'm in shock right now.Sometimes I wonder how often professed Christians actually pick up their bibles,much less try to understand it.
@ShatteredOnes92 Jesus will get "very little back",huh?I thought Jesus died to ensure immortality for the righteous and an infinite kingdom of peace and bliss.Not to grant the wicked immortality in flames so he can get pleasure from ceaseless unremittent sadism.We sure don't have the same Jesus.And no,he's not nice at all if he can be in peace and bliss forever when Mother Theresa is screaming in agony along with most other people who have ever lived.Geesh.
@howdytheresir i think you misunderstood me, I don't believe in hell either but I just am really confused about the whole afterlife thing. Jesus died for the sins of all mankind, right? The Bible says God wants all men to be saved..so how is Jesus' victory a victory if only around 2% of those who ever have lived will be saved?
@ShatteredOnes92 ..2 %..and you know this how?Sorry I misunderstood ya.He died so that all those who exercise faith and repent can have everlasting life.You always have to look at context to see if there's any qualification,and John 3:16 is clear.God doesn't make robots,so the wicked HAVE to die.Some people have no interest in serving God or being good.Therefore they can't live in his kingdom where that's a must.
@howdytheresir WRONG....on so MANY levels. You just threw God under the bus, his LOVE & MERCY ENDURE FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!! Carnal minds cant wrap their minds around this, Gods judgments are meant for correction & restoration, not annialation
@ShatteredOnes92 Makes perfect sense to me because if a man took and drugged and dragged a women to make her do something she didn't want to do,that man would be evil.Similarly,God isn't gonna force anyone to love or serve him precisely because he's just and decent.But it's his world,and if that's your choice,you can't live in his perfect kingdom for obvious reasons.
@ShatteredOnes92 Of course he wants all men to be saved.Love is his predominant quality.But again,since love IS his dominant quality,why would he make anyone serve him who has no interest in doing so?He gives us the truth and the tools.We can take it or leave it.We can choose life or death.We can recognize that we need our father and give him glory,or live for something that brings a swift end and inevitable misery.
Hell is an real place I have seen it and still can't get the voices out of my head!Just Reading and praying is not going to save you from Hell you have to change your whole Lifestyle!Telling people its no Hell is wrong, you are the evil forces behind only 2% of people getting into Heaven everyday!Telling people there's no Hell is like saying there's no rules!Many want Heaven, but don't want God present!that's what your telling people.Do yourself take down the video and REPENT!
@sunshineonra I don't tell people there's no hell..if they actually listen I just let the BIBLE and Jesus,as opposed to the visions of uninspired people,define it for me.I agree that repentance is integral.Thanks.Hell is Gehenna.Gehenna destroys.
Another useless Video by an Atheist,The truth is if you don't Believe in Hell,Hell believes in you!Period.Everyone dies its where you go after, that matters!Repentance is the teachings of Jesus Christ , not an written Bible by man aka Illuminati.Wake up!Reading,or Praying is not going to help you get saved from Hell you have to put in work for the fellow man,you know thy neighbors.Its time to stop using Jesus like an Credit card and start paying back those debts!Peace be with you!
@sunshineonra Gehenna is real alright.It is a consuming fire that reduces the wicked all the way to ashes as they perish.Worms consume carcasses in Isaiah 66:24..and the flames won't go out till everything wicked is utterly destroyed.The eternal smoke that lasts day and night forever and ever is a symbol for an irreversible destruction.
@sunshineonra Read Isaiah 34:9,10 where Edom was destroyed completely.Go there today and you won't see flames and smoke,yet the text says they are "day and night forever and ever."Interesting,huh?
@sunshineonra and peace to you as well..I can't imagine you'll ever have it though as long as you imagine wicked and evil preserved infinitely when God promises just the opposite!
But if there is a good place for those saved by Christ and who were good people , then where is the place for the unsaved people and/or bad people if our soul/spirits have to go somewhere?
@an824710 we don't have immortal souls..the bible says God ALONE is immortal..anyone else who receives immortality is given it as a GIFT only.That's why the bible says we must seek it.The spirit is the breath of life that returns to the God who gave it when we die,which is why when it leaves our bodies,our "thoughts perish."(Ps. 146:4)The soul can mean the entire person or the life of that person,and the souls of the wicked(or their lives) are destroyed in Matt. 10:28
@an824710 yw.The bible says that each will pay according to their works,(Rom. 2:6)so I believe the wicked will be punished according to what they have done,then destroyed.Jesus said they would be consumed (in Matt 3:12 the greek word for burned means utterly burned up or consumed)and Yahweh said they would become "ashes"(Malachi 4:3) and "perish"(John 3:16)We have a destroyed body and soul in Matt. 10:28 as well.The list goes on and on.
HOWEVER if malevolent human beings like serial murderers, Hitler, Mao, Stalin and others like them are not punished with conscious suffering and torment, then God is not fully just.
@anissueofursincerity my view of annihilationism allows for punishment according to what each one has done.An eye for an eye so to speak.Those are God's scales of justice..to repay deeds fairly.
@anissueofursincerity At the end every one will recognize that God is just, end every knee shall bow to God. And there will be tears, etc etc but there will not be eternal torment. When we judge Mao, Stalin etc etc. we talk as if some of us are much better. We all fall short of the Glory of God, says the bible. We are all lost without Calvary.
@howdytheresir Isaiah 66:23And it shall come to pass, THAT from one new to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: FOR THEIR WORM SHALL NOT DIE, NEITHER SHALL THEIR FIRE BE QUENCHED; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
@jamjr1972 right..worms and fire symbolize destruction.Eternal ones..eternal destruction.Not life,of course.In these texts you paste,are the worms and fire on CARCASSES or souls that can't be destroyed?Think about it.
@howdytheresir Isaiah 41:14Fear not, thou worm Jacob, AND YE men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the Lord, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. (Thou Worm) is Jacob's Soul...There's a difference from the spiritual Worm and the earthly Worm. Think about it.
@jamjr1972 please answer my initial question.Thanks.I think it's important to understand God's symbolism for destruction and what better symbols than worms that devour carcasses(so nothing is left) and fire that consumes(Matt 3:12..where the chaff gets utterly consumed in the fire you say preserves it alive!)So,I repeat,what are the fire and worms on in Isaiah 66?Carcasses or souls that can't be eaten or devoured at all?
@howdytheresir Thought i answered it with Scriptures....I believe Isaiah 66:23-24 Is about Hell a place for The Second death that burns forever. Revelation 14:10-11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they HAVE NO REST DAY nor NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
@jamjr1972 Isaiah 34:9,10 talks about fire and smoke being day and night forever and ever.Guess what?They went out because it's talking about the eternal destruction of Edom in symbolic language and imagery.Go to Edom and find the smoke and fire.You won't be able to.You can't interpret texts in Revelation that borrow Isaiah's symbolic language and interpret them outside the biblical usage of these terms and phrases.Well,I guess you can.But it would be a mistake.
The King James Bible 1611 is the final authority.Luke chapter 16 is not a parable.The rich man died and in Hell he lifted up his eyes. The soul never dies.Then from Hell you will face the white throne judgement.The second death means eternal torement in the lake of fire.Rev,20 read the chapter.The Holy Bible was spiritualy written and is spiritiualy understood.Jesus taught everlasting torement,day and night ,no rest.Satan says"no eternal fire"because he is a LIAR. Duane Risko.
@thefireshow1 the king james bible isn't my final authority.That would be crazy since it's only a translation of the original hebrew and greek.Souls get destroyed and die in many a text.(Ez. 18:20,Matt. 10:28).Google Patrick Navas Revelation 20:10 and hopefully it will at least give you some food for thought?In Isaiah 34:9 and 10 the fire and smoke is forever and ever.It went out!It's symbolic for eternal destruction.Go to Edom and see if it's on fire.
Hey while I do agree I have one potential, biblical, problem with this view. I hold the view presented in this video but this counter argument has been giving to me and it stumps me.
1) John 3:16 if you believe in Jesus you will have everlasting life
2) Even the devils believe in Jesus
3) Therefore devils live eternally
4) Devils will not enter heaven
5) Therefore, Devils must live eternally in the lake of fire, the Abyss, or some other eternal place of punishment, commonly referred to as Hell.
@TheJohnVandivier In John 3:16,the text is talking about everlasting life in the Kingdom of God.Not everlasting life in gehenna.(hell)..Read Romans 6:23,where again we have death and life contrasted.One's a gift where we breathe..the other a curse where we don't.
@howdytheresir Thanks! So even the Devils suffer a permanent death and I would suppose this takes place at the lake of fire and that it is a spiritual one, but not an everlasting continuous torture.
Another couple questions b/c you seem to know what you're talking about 1) what do you think about Catholic scripture and/or apocraphyl scripture and 2) what do you think about the Recovery version of the Bible, Witness Lee, the local church movement and that whole thing? we can msg if u want! thx
@TheJohnVandivier Feel free to pm me about anything,but I'm in the process of learning too!Sounds like you could probably educate me about some things.I've not yet educated myself on the Recovery bible nor the Apocrypha either.I have read some stuff,but to me it seems that the 66 book canon we have now fits together beautifully,while some of the other books(and I haven't read them all) would seem out of place.Just a feeling though.No dogmatic opinion.
@mas03 Where did I say I don't believe in gehenna?(greek word for hell)I just happen to care deeply about what it really is.It was a garbage dump in Jerusalem where carcasses and trash were consumed.Where worms ate up what was left.It didn't preserve anything infinitely!
@mas03 So when Jesus preached about it,the Jews understood he was communicating destruction,not preservation.The worms and fire language from the NT are borrowed from Isaiah 66:24(for one) where,again,*destruction* is conveyed.The meaning didn't suddenly change in the NT.
Here is the answer.The Christian Canon(Humans) which created God and wrote the bible had far too much time on their hands.People have been creating Gods since the beginning of time.What makes the Christian God any more real than the others?Nothing, because it was all just made to make people feel good about themselves for doing what people claim is good.Religion is a mental disorder, a parasitic belief complex and a disease of the mind.It has been proven.People are weak.Reason they still believe
@MrMaxTruth gehenna exists.It destroys both soul and body.People are punished according to their deeds & thrown into the lake of fire with death and hell.What happens to death eternally?Then you'll have your answer for what happens to the wicked since they are thrown the same place.
@howdytheresir gehenna exists! that is your belive right? so arguing with others who belive in hell? how sure are you that that gehenna place exist or that hell does not exist? or how sure what you belive is 100% accurated? give me evidence not pre historic non sence books please. thank you
@Musashi850 Gehenna IS the Greek word FOR hell.Translators translated three words as hell..sheol,hades,and gehenna.Gehenna was a literal trash heap where trash and carcasses of the dead were consumed in fire.Worms ate up what wasn't.This was Jesus's intent with his imagery.Destruction.Eternally.That's "hell."Those who say gehenna never consumes have to assign it a new function and meaning to fit a tradition Jesus never set.
"Hell" means grave, Christ died to ensure eternal life to avoid "hell" or "God's wrath" (which is death a result of adam and eve) to those who believe. "Hell" is simply dead in the grave with no eternal life.
When you actually understand the bible you learn that the "fiery place" doesn't happen until Christ returns in revelations to make "bad people" experience the "second death" AKA death of the soul.
Conclusion, there is no "Hell" in Christianity as modern culture portrays it.
"Hell" means grave, Christ died to ensure eternal life to avoid "hell" or "God's wrath" (which is death a result of adam and eve) to those who believe. "Hell" is simply dead in the grave with no eternal life.
When you actually understand the bible you learn that the "fiery place" doesn't happen until Christ returns in revelations to make "bad people" experience the "second death" AKA death of the soul.
Conclusion, there is no "Hell" in Christianity as modern culture portrays it.
"Hell" means grave, Christ died to ensure eternal life to avoid "hell" or "God's wrath" (which is death a result of adam and eve) to those who believe. "Hell" is simply dead in the grave with no eternal life.
When you actually understand the bible you learn that the "fiery place" doesn't happen until Christ returns in revelations to make "bad people" experience the "second death" AKA death of the soul.
Conclusion, there is no "Hell" in Christianity as modern culture portrays it.
"Hell" means grave, Christ died to ensure eternal life to avoid "hell" or "God's wrath" (which is death a result of adam and eve) to those who believe. "Hell" is simply dead in the grave with no eternal life.
When you actually understand the bible you learn that the "fiery place" doesn't happen until Christ returns in revelations to make "bad people" experience the "second death" AKA death of the soul.
Conclusion, there is no "Hell" in Christianity as modern culture portrays it.
@MrMaxTruth Jesus..but he expected us to know what gehenna was and did of course.He didn't expect anyone to believe it destroyed and consumed corpses one place and did the opposite another.
@howdytheresir I am consistent. Smoke will indeed rise in hell but that does not mean it will escape from hell like the smoke rising from a burning house and rising into the atmosphere. It sounds like you belive God will be unable to keep that smoke from escaping out of hell. That which is in hell stays in hell.
@MrMaxTruth Ahh..I see!So hell is like Vegas!Seriously,if you will allow scripture to define it's OWN TERMS,then the "smoke that ascends forever and ever" is ABOVE GROUND.That's where it was in the OT when Edom was utterly destroyed.That smoke was a symbol and testament of an everlasting destruction.Yet you boldly suggest it's not.That it's below ground and a testament to infinite sadism.That's NOT how to bible defines it it if you allow Jesus to exist within the OT context he incorporates.
@shoe6464 There is Sheol and Hades(the grave where Job begged to go for relief from misery)Then there's gehenna.There can be a resurrection back to life from sheol,but not from gehenna.Gehenna not only destroys,but destroys eternally.It destroys both your body AND your ability to ever live again.
@shoe6464 Like I just told some other commenter,gehenna was a literal garbage dump where trash and carcasses of the dead were consumed in fire and eaten up by worms.It is a place of literal destruction,not preservation.The bible says that each one will be punished according to his deeds then be destroyed and consumed,becoming ashes essentially.(Micah 4:3)
@howdytheresir Please can you also tell me why Jesus refered to the words "wheeping and nashing of teeth." doesnt this imply pain? If it is only symbology then what is the symbology of?
@howdytheresir You make some good arguments. My concern is the truth. I will however re-read the passages you have mentioned and consider what you have said. I do not like to think that i am so closed minded i wiil never change my mind. -Thanks.
@MrMaxTruth Thanks.You could start by reading the essay I have linked on my page here for those who believe like you.Then I highly recommend watching Ed Fudge explain every hellfire "proof" text within their actual biblical contexts on my "hell is a lie" playlist.Watch the first few vids when you have the time.
@jacobholstein It doesn't.Breath of life can't turn to dust..It just returns to God who gives it back in a resurrection when we think and breathe again.Till then,thoughts and breaths have perished.When God breathed into Adam's nostrils,he came alive.God didn't breathe into Adam's nostrils an immortal being.Simply the breath of life!
@howdytheresir Thank you so much for pointing this fact out. Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (KJV) Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. It never says God gave man a soul, it says man is a living soul.
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
@bvaliant4theTruth Check out the first few videos on my hell is a lie playlist and the essay linked about hell on my page here.You will get great biblical exegesis of "proof texts."I have a video about Rev. 14:11 too.Take a looksie.
@bvaliant4theTruth --- The rich man and Lazarus is VERY easy to demonstrate... it is NOT talking about an individual man's afterlife experience. Jesus gives descriptions of each man... and then he talks about their destinies. Those two men are emblematic of two separate people groups which were about to undergo prophetic fulfillment: The House of Israel and The House of Judah.
@quentedlin I would love to agree with you my friend but it sounds like Jesus is talking about an individual man. Jesus begins by saying "there WAS a certain beggar named Lazarus." That sounds like Jesus is describing a real person with real events to me. Its also how I would go about describing a real story about a real person today.
@MrMaxTruth Why can't those men represent groups of people as symbols,as would befit a parable?Who made this "name" rule?Did God?Or did men come up with it to uphold a traditional literal view of CLEARLY parabolic texts?Isn't it in a series of parables?If you're going to take everything in it literal,am I to believe that in the perfect kingdom where you're promised peace and bliss that you will be speaking to frying souls?
@howdytheresir If i say there was a car accident in the street that envolved a man called Bill most people would take it on face value that i was telling you something that i had personally witnessed and that I knew the person involved. Anything else would not only be a lie but would make a nonsence of the English language. Furthermore Jesus describes Hell as being a place of fire and torment. Was he lieing? Why not just say seperation?
@MrMaxTruth Jesus borrowed intense hyperbolic imagery and language from the book of isaiah.All you need to do is read texts like Is. 34:9,10 and 66:24 to let the bible define what he meant for you.You don't have to come up with a new interpretation.Watch my video about Revelation on my hell playlist.And the Ed Fudge videos.I could take any parable and say that the language means something.Question is..are they literal or not?If Rich man is then there will be tears in the kingdom.Impossible!
@MrMaxTruth Unless you will be able to peacefully and blissfully dialogue with frying flesh(the rich man had a tongue)infinitely as you tread in the kingdom.Give me a break.I suppose you also believe in God's eden there will be smoke rising eternally.Guess the kingdom will be polluted.Sorry for the sarcasm but I only ask that you reason here.
@howdytheresir I'm sorry but your understanding of scripture is baffeling to me. You say " in God's eden there will be smoke rising eternally.Guess the kingdom will be polluted." What the hell are you talking about? Why would there would be smoke in eden ? If you mean smoke from hell then your assuming God does not have the ability to keep that which is in hell from getting into his Kingdom. That must be the worst example of the justification of a belief i have ever heard ! Sorry.
@MrMaxTruth In scripture the rising smoke was a testimony of an infinite destruction in the OT.Are you suggesting it meant something else in the NT?The smoke didn't rise underground concealed from the earth.Are you suggesting it will?If you're going to take one thing literally,then you must be consistent.
God's love & mercy either endures forever or it doesn't. He cannot punish people for all of eternity and have grace & mercy endure forever. One has to be true and one has to be a lie. Since the Scriptures say over and over again that it endures forever, I believe it lasts forever. God will judge fairly, how He sees fit. The Bible does not teach eternal punishment. He tells us to love our enemies. Will He turn around and eternally torment His? Love never fails.
Light = knowledge. Knowledge (science) = not walking on the wilderness. We don't use our time to walk towards light (science) we will burn in hell ( Helium) the sun will expand and consume earth. Giving the human race a fiery death....looks like someone has advice us to walk closer to god...who is awfully smart...so science is the way =)
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. -Christ
Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Did you follow 2Tim 2:15? Hell: G1067 - geenna - valley of Hinnom. Root: H1516 - gay' - valley, narrow gorge. Yes, it is clear, no forever burning tormenting hell, but the grave.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto Elohim who gave it.
@2emeraldeyes Yes it is clear. Think. If the body and soul are destroyed in hell, doesnt "hell" sound more like a forever death rather than being eternally alive suffering? The word destroy means: to put an end to; extinguish, so how can something that is destroyed or put an end to, be forever alive being punished? If you think rationally "hell" is just putting an end to life or in other words death.
I believe the Bible and what Jesus says.The lake of fire lasts for etenity Hell is just temporary.Rev 20 prove it.The Authorized KJV is the only Bible that talks about burnig forever.Luke 16:24 Matt 25:46Rev21:8 2 thes 1:8-9 rev 20:10 all say hell,everlastingpunishment,and the lake of fire.The Bible says other wise.It's foolish to decieve people like this you will answer to God for it.You are reading a false bible get a KJV and look up these versus.
@TheKJVforever you might at least think about checking out the other side of this argument.I think you will find the refutations both biblical and sound IF you allow scripture to interpret itself and define it's own terms.Watch Ed Fudge debunk every "proof" on my hell is a lie playlist.
@WhiteWings901 or maybe it's convincing the world that God is more sadistic than he is and that perish means eternal life in flames?That ashes means eternal souls in flames?Yeah,Satan's tricky allright.
@waterandphotons Actually,if we receive the GIFT of immortality that Adam LOST by exercising faith in Christ..ONLY then are we "eternal beings."The bible says God alone is immortal..Anyone else made immortal isn't that inherently unless God gives that gift to them.
Hell is described in old testament and new testament, it goes into decriiption of how hell looks like and the soul being tormented, search scriptures.
@darkaus32 Watch the first few videos on my hell is a lie playlist when you get the time.At least try and understand why folk like me believe like we do and how when you allow scripture to define it's own terms,the fate for the wicked is always a literal destruction,perishing,ashes..etc.
Says in the book of Revelation, chap20:ver14, {that death and hell were cast in to the lake of fire},,,, and most of people, ain't got the guts to read the next verse,15....
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; SO shall the Son of man be THREE days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Some would say Gehenna the greek word for hell. Don't talk nonsense cause you havent been in Gehenna yet, and you will see it, if you continue your deluded ways of thinking. Gehenna exists, because The word of God says it is, and we believers dont follow false teachers. Repent!
@coolboysoldier1 You sir need to repent if you propagate a FALSE view of gehenna.Gehenna always,I repeat always,consumed carcasses and trash.It didn't preserve anything.
@GordonWayneWatts Wouldn't your paper prove that hell is a bloodguilty doctrine?Not only for those reasons,but also because it keeps some people from God and gives them an excuse not to love him because who could fathom infinite unimaginable sadism?These are some of the reasons why it matters so much!
@howdytheresir Which paper? My paper on the nature of hell or instead my paper in the eternal fate of Babies who die B4 the age of accountability? Both papers are in the 'Theology' section of my namesake blog, found at 2 mirrors -one with my full name & one with just my 1st & last name, a listed in my YouTube profile. When you say blood-guilty, aren't you judging God? Are you able to tell God what is morally right and what isn't? ANY version of hell pushes me TO God since I don't wanna go2 hell.
@GordonWayneWatts Am I not allowed to have a conscience,sense of justice,common sense,and morals?They're God given!I also don't see the point in trying to force my own interpretation on easy texts when the bible interprets them for me.For instance,if unquenchable fire literally destroys acc to scripture,then I don't pretend it preserves eternally.I can't pretend ashes means imperishable souls.Or that death and hell are annihilated in the lake of fire but the wicked aren't.Nonsense.
@howdytheresir Also, with respect to sadism, if a person rejects God, he or she deserves anything he/she gets! -- So, this alone is reason enough to not try and judge God -- Also, the so-called "parable" on Lazarus and the rich man does NOT say it IS a parable, and in fact, Jesus says a 'certain' main... I agree this is not the best argument for the nature of hell, but as I said above, you can not sit in judgment and tell God what is moral and what is not. HE alone is qualified to so judge.
@GordonWayneWatts I agree you can't tell God what's moral.But he told ME what is.If you contradict him on a subject like this,you're misrepresenting and blaspheming him.I am scared of that for sure.I believe easy scriptures like john 3:16 and Mal. 4:3.I will allow the bible to define it's own synmbolic terms when they're used.You?
@howdytheresir you're right that we can't tell God or force his hand (a point I make in my When Babies Die paper regarding those who insist that a mother killing her baby will FORCE God to accept him/her into heaven for ETERNAL salvation... Not. Salvation is based on His grace & our faith, and nothing more and nothing less. Period --and no woman can force God to admit her child eternally LOL, but some try). Since I addressed symbolism in my last reply won here. Did u c my When Babies Die paper??
@GordonWayneWatts I saw it(I only skimmed it),and it should make you try and understand the truth about gehenna instead of defending the sadistic tradition of men that inspires such madness.If I thought hell as propagated by the blind spot in orthodoxy were true,I would have to live with my mind shut off from thinking logically and my heart shut off from feeling before i could live with even the idea of it,much less the reality.Sick.People who propagate it don't get the purpose of God's kingdom.
@howdytheresir If u read all of the position paper in my Theology section of my namesake blogs (listed in my YouTube profile) you'll see I try HARD 2B fair: 2 examples:
1) In my Soul Sleep paper, I admit both views have support & admit I DON'T know the answer
2) In my 'When Babies Die' paper (by Gordon Wayne Watts -e.g. me but 4 those of u Google searching, here are yr search terms) I lay out FIVE (yes! 5) positions on the end fate of babies & admit it could be position #5 (even tho I prefer #4)
@howdytheresir According to gotquestions website we must take the part where it says "eternal" literally. My response: oh really Hell is eternal? Daniel 7:14 compare with 1 Cor. 15:25. If we should take prophecies literal rather than in the sense the prophets understand them we have a problem...ENEMIES ARE GOING TO BE RUNNING AROUND FOREVER!
@Danielezerable the language is borrowed from places like Isaiah 34:9 & 10 where the smoke was day and night forever and ever.Clearly,it went out!Not literal at all.It's symbolic hyperbolic language for eternal destruction that is irreversible.People would have to admit that's the case for Edom in Isaiah 34 yet choose to pretend a completely different interpretation is applicable where they'd like to uphold a sadistic tradition.
The Bible does not teach eternal punishment. God's love & mercy endures forever. Does it really endure forever or only in this life? How can it be Good News if it doesn't translate to the afterlife? God will still judge but He will not punish forever. He's a better father than we are, right?
1 Tim 4:10 This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
@howdytheresir I just finished listening to it -- yes, the Old Testament mentions destruction, but this may refer to the body, not the soul: The OT is metaphorical. For example in Ps 13:1-4, David says that God has forgotten him and has hidden His face from him. Oh, really? Is this literally true? No, this too is metaphorical!
God is fair and impartial: It's against His nature to punish all sinners equally!
Go, instead, to my blog (listed in my YT profile) & under 'Theology,' see my Hell paper
@GordonWayneWatts Isaiah 66:24 says that the worms are on *corpses*(as opposed to souls never dying) and in Is 34:9,10 the eternal smoke went out eventually..it symbolized eternal destruction.Likewise,unquenchable fire in texts like ez. 20:47 LITERALLY destroys..it doesn't preserve.We must use texts like this to help us understand gehenna's symbolism in the NT.Otherwise,we're just interpreting NT passages out of their OT context.Read the essay linked on my page here when you can.
@howdytheresir Is 66:24 says that “they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases [not necessarily “dead” carcases] of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.” Deut 14:8 & Ez 6:5 qualify that there were “dead” carcases implying that NOT all carcases are dead! So their worm doesn’t die; their carcases aren’t dead: Eternal punishment is just for anyone who rejects The Christ!
@GordonWayneWatts So God uses common sense literal DEATH imagery(like worms because they consume literal carcasses) to instead communicate eternal life in flames that never consume when worms and fire BOTH consume?Makes no sense.I have heard the excuse..well,they're eternally consuming..which is as ridiculous as saying Christ is eternally begotten.It's made up.Sometimes when "eternal" is paired with nouns of action,it's the CONSEQUENCE that's eternal as opposed to the action.
@howdytheresir - Well, when it says that their worm doesn't die, this indicates an eternal nature for those in hell -- BUT, I hasten to add that whether Hell is eternal torment or mere destruction, suffice it to say that you will NOT be denied salvation based on a bad understanding of this issue (as salvation is due to our faith and His grace -period), and furthermore, in EITHER case, Hell is NOT good, and 2B avoided.
@GordonWayneWatts For example,with eternal redemption,eternal salvation,and eternal; destruction..There is no "eternal redeeming process",no "eternal saving process",no "eternal destroying process..There is a ONE TIME redemption,salvation and destruction that all last eternally.This is easy.
@howdytheresir I disagree: Scripture records eyewitnesses who SAY Hell is scary as opposed 2 mere destruction: Demons (who KNOW about hell) in Mt 8:29 Mk 5:7-12 & Lk 8:32 BEGGED Jesus to not send them to hell. Why not? THEY knew something WE don't know. ETERNAL Pain! Otherwise they'd have no objection to committing suicide.
Also since Scripture says there ARE degrees of sin, God being impartial, there must ALSO be degrees of punishment, which isn't possible if ALL unsaved are equally destroyed.
@GordonWayneWatts Where did you get that sinners not in Christ won't have degrees of punishment before they're killed?I believe God will mete out a just punishment according to what each one has done,as opposed to an unjust punishment according to what no one could ever do.If you're honest,even you'd agree that if you watched Hitler burn long enough,it would not only bother you,but destroy you too.
@howdytheresir I *do* believe in degrees of punishment for the degrees of sin - however, since some sinners are NOT punished completely in this temporal life before they pass on and (physically) die, obviously, the punishment in degrees for sin in degrees would have to carry over to satisfy Scriptures (which I cited in my other reply addressing 'Degrees of Sin' Scriptures) - I agree God is just, impartial, & fair, but how do you think it would destroy ME if God put Hitler into eternal heat? Huh?
@GordonWayneWatts Did I not just say that when the wicked are resurrected that they will get a "degree" of punishment before the lake of fire *consumes* and *destroys* them?According to their deeds,as opposed to according to Dante's whims that Christians have mistakenly adopted as their own.
@howdytheresir - Regarding yr comment here about the resurrection 2 receive a 'degree' of punishment (as opposed to a sentence or judgment, but without the punishment at that exact time), yes, that is possible, but does not necessarily exclude other forms of punishment.
So, the punishment need not take place at either 'when' they are resurrected vs. 'after' the resurrection to be complete -- either way, punishment happens, so this proves neither case.
@GordonWayneWatts And you'll have to pardon me for thinking that those in the kingdom of God would be righteous sadists(which isn't even possible..the two notions are incongruent) if they could live in bliss and peace while most of mankind is being subjected to the worst possible imaginable act of infinite sadism.Do you not understand that if you could live comfortably with that that you would then be sadist?Are you fair and just or sadistic?
@GordonWayneWatts Do you also not understand that we desperately NEED the kingdom so that all evil will be gone forever?So why are you proposing that the world could or would be perfect when evil is perpetuated eternally?We don't worship the same God.
@howdytheresir And if your excuse for being blissful and peaceful despite infinite sadism still in existence is that it will be in another realm,then I would like to know why that matters.Are you any less appalled by starvation and war and suffering just because it's not in your own home?Will you cease to be sentient for the suffering of others while you're in the kingdom and they're burning up eternally?Unbelievable.Destruction is understandable for a number of reasons.What you propose is not.
@howdytheresir Lack of understanding of the same God is not necessarily lack of worship of Him. NO 2 people completely agree on all points regarding God, but salvation is dependent on only 2 things: His grace (first, and foundationally) and then our faith (without which it is impossible 2 please God).
@GordonWayneWatts Where is the "degrees" for your view?Don't you think they all burn in the same lake?For the same amount of time?I'm sure the demons will be punished worse than anyone before they're put out of existence.Why would they WANT that?Why wouldn't they be scared?I can't believe people are comfortable pretending banishment from a kingdom and everlasting life isn't punishment for sinners.If a serial killer got the death penalty,no one would say he wasn't punished.
@howdytheresir YES banishment IS punishment. Proof of degrees of sin? Deut 25:2; Num 15:29-30; Deut 25:3; Lk 12:47-48 "certain number of stripes according to his offense" Zech 1:6 "according to our ways, and according to our doings, so hath he dealt with us" Mt 5:22 lists 3 degrees of sin Mt 10:15, 11:24; Lk 10:12 "It shall be MORE tolerable for the land of Sodom" Prov 24:12, Mt 16:2, Rev 20:12-14 "according to his/their works" Jn 19:11 GREATER sin=Lk 20:47 GREATER damnation Heb 10:29 James 3:1
@GordonWayneWatts So you believe bodies will be preserved forever?I thought the orthodox view was that they aren't..only the souls.And read your comment.I do not mean to be offensive,but can I be honest?It sounds desperate.It would be easy to reason about this if you allow yourself to.
@howdytheresir No, the physical bodies will not be preserved at ALL -either for the lost or the save. Rather, 2nd Corinthians 5:1-6 says that we will be clothed in a heavenly body after this body is dissolved. (See the KJV 4 the best rendering of this passage, but compare also with the NASB and the AMP, 2 other literal & thus very accurate translations.)
So, we can infer that the lost will also have eternal spiritual (not physical) bodies.
Man is created in God's image, and GOD is eternal! LOL
@GordonWayneWatts But didn't you just say that according to Isaiah 66:24 that the BODIES will have worms consuming them eternally?Or will you finally admit the NT borrows language from there and it means a LITERAL destruction that lasts eternally?
@howdytheresir Quoting from the very reliable KJV, part of Isaiah 66:24 says that: "for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched"
"Shall not die" connotates an eternally continuing action. If they're destroyed, how can the worm avoid dying!?
"neither shall their fire be quenched" also denotes something that will NEVER happen, and thus it will eternally be unquenched.
That doesn't sound like destruction, where the thing is destroyed at some point (and the fire quenched.)!
@GordonWayneWatts Worms signal death..not life & awakeness...breathing,and aliveness.If they "never die" that is symbolism for a CARCASS(as opposed to an unkillable soul)NEVER breathing,living,or being alive again,which worms never dying signify..ETERNAL DEATH.Conveniently enough,(again),the bible says the wicked will be ASHES.That's simple language.And the worms are a simple symbol.How can you keep ignoring that the fire and worms are on CORPSES.NOT alive souls!
@howdytheresir If the worms were indeed signaling death, the writer would have said that "Where the worm dies," however, he chose to say the opposite: The worm NEVER dies = Eternality.
Also, ashes, which hint at death, nonetheless do not mandate it, especially if they are symbolic = not literal.
Using Scripture 2 interpret Scripture, Mark 9:47b-48 hints that their worm is their soul. What other translation could be correct here? 'Animal kingdom' worms? If so, then how could they not die?
@GordonWayneWatts Again,SYMBOLS.Worms symbolize death..eternal worms eternal death.If the worms don't die,it means the person never wakes up again.The worms not dying means the person is dead..forever...
@howdytheresir you wrote: (""Again,SYMBOLS.Worms symbolize death"") -- Question: Using Scripture to interpret Scripture, where do you find Scriptural warrant to assign that symbolic meaning to the worms themselves (as opposed to the things which the 'literal animal' worms might eat)?
@GordonWayneWatts their never dying is symbolic for a death that is irreversible.The worms are on corpses.Keep this in mind.Corpses have flesh and they aren't breathing functioning souls.
@GordonWayneWatts Check out ez 20:47,amos 5:6,Matt 3:12..unquenchable fire does it's job then goes out.That is,if you allow scriputre to define it's own terms.But I don't think you will from what I''ve witnessed.You're quite determined to NOT allow scripture to interpret scripture.It's tradition-threatening.Let me know after you read these texts if the things that get destroyed by the unquenchable fire are preserved in it and whether or not the fire went out after it destroyed.
@howdytheresir - Perhaps you have a point here that an unquenchable fire could go out, but nowhere in Scripture is there a mandate that it *must* *necessarily* *have* to go out. -- If, however, the worm (singular, not plural as you quote!) never dies: Isa. 66:24 mentions the worm (singular) never dies, then it means just that: It NEVER DIES. Don't add to Scripture. That is supported by Matt 25:46's claim of "everlasting punishment." Note: It does not say: "everlasting destruction."
@GordonWayneWatts this goes right back to everlasting and eternal being the results of the action and not necessarily the perpetuation of that action.Examples AGAIN:eternal redemption and salvation.Christ isn't continually redeeming.He did it once and it lasts eternally.And if you're going to take a biblical phrase and say it means something,the smart thing to do would be to examine other texts where it's defined FOR YOU.Not to make up a new interpretation to uphold a tradition of men.
@howdytheresir - Perhaps you have a point here that an unquenchable fire could go out, but nowhere in Scripture is there a mandate that it *must* *necessarily* *have* to go out. -- If, however, the worm (singular, not plural as you quote!) never dies: Isa. 66:24 mentions the worm (singular) never dies, then it means just that: It NEVER DIES. Don't add to Scripture. That is supported by Matt 25:46's claim of "everlasting punishment." Note: It does not say: "everlasting destruction."
Amos 5:6:he will sweep through the house of Joseph like a fire; it will devour, and Bethel will have no one to quench it.
What do we get from this honestly?That the house of Joseph will be preserved forever in a preserving unquenchable fire?Of course not.That the house of Jacob will be DEVOURED in a fire that cannot be quenched.(it does it's job..what fire does.)Why would you assign unquenchable fire a different meaning sometimes?To uphold a tradition?
@GordonWayneWatts why does the bible say God ALONE is immortal?Why did God tell Adam and Eve they would die if they couldn't?We're not supermen.Immortality is a GIFT.Not an inherent "given".He created man to BE immortal but men lost that gift.Why do you think Christ had to come?
@howdytheresir Q: "why does the bible say God ALONE is immortal?" -- A: Perhaps this refers to the body, not the soul? -- Q: "Why did God tell Adam and Eve they would die if they couldn't?" -- A: Adam and Eve's death was spiritual death, not physical. In Genesis 2:17, God said they would die the SAME DAY they sinned ("for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"), so since we know they did not *physically* die that day, the death spoken of MUST be SPIRITUAL death = not immortal
It is Satan who says that death means life in some capacity.Not God.Death is the opposite of life.In life,people think and breathe.In death,not so much.Again,the bible makes this so clear a child could understand.From cover to cover.
@howdytheresir well done mate - top stuff. I am amazed at the sheer ignorance of the majority of christians on this subject - from pastors to theologians to laity... I spend much of my time spreading the truth regarding the lie of eternal damnation. People force their own pretext understanding into scripture and ignore historical and biblical context - its such a mess, but I believe, in time, truth will overcome the lie. Its good to know you are out there!
You're wrong: For example, Rev. 14:9-11 indicates that the torment (not mere destruction) shall be forever for mankind who worship the beast:
9...If any man worship the beast and his image...
10...he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night [In other words, FOREVER, based on language above: "for ever and ever"]
PS: Matthew 25:46 says: "everlasting punishment" NOT everlasting destruction!
@GordonWayneWatts what a coincidence.Check out my video on Revelation 14:9-11 and watch the first couple videos on my hell is a lie playlist.God bless!
Hell wasn't created but for Satan and His angels.. But because we sinned we face hell for eternity. Sin has to be punished!
moshowfosho 1 day ago
@moshowfosho Where did anyone say that sin doesn't have to be punished?
howdytheresir 1 day ago
I find it ironic that people think God is so much more loving because, instead of torturing people who don't believe in Him (when there's already zilch evidence), He will just destroy them to bits and Jesus will get very little back that He died for. Isn't He nice.
ShatteredOnes92 1 day ago
@ShatteredOnes92 You can't be serious.*Gulps*...OF COURSE it's so much more loving to kill unrepentant sinners than preserve them in unfathomable sadistic agony of the worst possible imaginable sort throughout all of eternity.Are you a sadist?Zilch evidence that the wicked will be reduced to ashes,perish,and be destroyed forever?Again,seriously?I'm in shock right now.Sometimes I wonder how often professed Christians actually pick up their bibles,much less try to understand it.
howdytheresir 1 day ago
@ShatteredOnes92 Jesus will get "very little back",huh?I thought Jesus died to ensure immortality for the righteous and an infinite kingdom of peace and bliss.Not to grant the wicked immortality in flames so he can get pleasure from ceaseless unremittent sadism.We sure don't have the same Jesus.And no,he's not nice at all if he can be in peace and bliss forever when Mother Theresa is screaming in agony along with most other people who have ever lived.Geesh.
howdytheresir 1 day ago
@howdytheresir i think you misunderstood me, I don't believe in hell either but I just am really confused about the whole afterlife thing. Jesus died for the sins of all mankind, right? The Bible says God wants all men to be saved..so how is Jesus' victory a victory if only around 2% of those who ever have lived will be saved?
ShatteredOnes92 1 day ago
@ShatteredOnes92 ..2 %..and you know this how?Sorry I misunderstood ya.He died so that all those who exercise faith and repent can have everlasting life.You always have to look at context to see if there's any qualification,and John 3:16 is clear.God doesn't make robots,so the wicked HAVE to die.Some people have no interest in serving God or being good.Therefore they can't live in his kingdom where that's a must.
howdytheresir 1 day ago
@howdytheresir WRONG....on so MANY levels. You just threw God under the bus, his LOVE & MERCY ENDURE FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!! Carnal minds cant wrap their minds around this, Gods judgments are meant for correction & restoration, not annialation
Lrothtube 22 hours ago
@ShatteredOnes92 Makes perfect sense to me because if a man took and drugged and dragged a women to make her do something she didn't want to do,that man would be evil.Similarly,God isn't gonna force anyone to love or serve him precisely because he's just and decent.But it's his world,and if that's your choice,you can't live in his perfect kingdom for obvious reasons.
howdytheresir 1 day ago
@ShatteredOnes92 Of course he wants all men to be saved.Love is his predominant quality.But again,since love IS his dominant quality,why would he make anyone serve him who has no interest in doing so?He gives us the truth and the tools.We can take it or leave it.We can choose life or death.We can recognize that we need our father and give him glory,or live for something that brings a swift end and inevitable misery.
howdytheresir 1 day ago
Hell is an real place I have seen it and still can't get the voices out of my head!Just Reading and praying is not going to save you from Hell you have to change your whole Lifestyle!Telling people its no Hell is wrong, you are the evil forces behind only 2% of people getting into Heaven everyday!Telling people there's no Hell is like saying there's no rules!Many want Heaven, but don't want God present!that's what your telling people.Do yourself take down the video and REPENT!
sunshineonra 2 days ago
@sunshineonra I don't tell people there's no hell..if they actually listen I just let the BIBLE and Jesus,as opposed to the visions of uninspired people,define it for me.I agree that repentance is integral.Thanks.Hell is Gehenna.Gehenna destroys.
howdytheresir 1 day ago
Another useless Video by an Atheist,The truth is if you don't Believe in Hell,Hell believes in you!Period.Everyone dies its where you go after, that matters!Repentance is the teachings of Jesus Christ , not an written Bible by man aka Illuminati.Wake up!Reading,or Praying is not going to help you get saved from Hell you have to put in work for the fellow man,you know thy neighbors.Its time to stop using Jesus like an Credit card and start paying back those debts!Peace be with you!
sunshineonra 2 days ago
@sunshineonra Gehenna is real alright.It is a consuming fire that reduces the wicked all the way to ashes as they perish.Worms consume carcasses in Isaiah 66:24..and the flames won't go out till everything wicked is utterly destroyed.The eternal smoke that lasts day and night forever and ever is a symbol for an irreversible destruction.
howdytheresir 2 days ago
@sunshineonra Read Isaiah 34:9,10 where Edom was destroyed completely.Go there today and you won't see flames and smoke,yet the text says they are "day and night forever and ever."Interesting,huh?
howdytheresir 2 days ago
@sunshineonra and peace to you as well..I can't imagine you'll ever have it though as long as you imagine wicked and evil preserved infinitely when God promises just the opposite!
howdytheresir 2 days ago
But if there is a good place for those saved by Christ and who were good people , then where is the place for the unsaved people and/or bad people if our soul/spirits have to go somewhere?
an824710 2 weeks ago
@an824710 we don't have immortal souls..the bible says God ALONE is immortal..anyone else who receives immortality is given it as a GIFT only.That's why the bible says we must seek it.The spirit is the breath of life that returns to the God who gave it when we die,which is why when it leaves our bodies,our "thoughts perish."(Ps. 146:4)The soul can mean the entire person or the life of that person,and the souls of the wicked(or their lives) are destroyed in Matt. 10:28
howdytheresir 2 weeks ago
@howdytheresir Oh, ok, thanks for explaining. So, the wicked will cease to exist for eternity?
an824710 2 weeks ago
@an824710 yw.The bible says that each will pay according to their works,(Rom. 2:6)so I believe the wicked will be punished according to what they have done,then destroyed.Jesus said they would be consumed (in Matt 3:12 the greek word for burned means utterly burned up or consumed)and Yahweh said they would become "ashes"(Malachi 4:3) and "perish"(John 3:16)We have a destroyed body and soul in Matt. 10:28 as well.The list goes on and on.
howdytheresir 2 weeks ago
@howdytheresir Thanks! I was confused lol.
an824710 2 weeks ago
@an824710 fell free to pm me if you have any questions or concerns.
howdytheresir 2 weeks ago
@howdytheresir Ok I will, thanks:)
an824710 2 weeks ago
HOWEVER if malevolent human beings like serial murderers, Hitler, Mao, Stalin and others like them are not punished with conscious suffering and torment, then God is not fully just.
anissueofursincerity 3 weeks ago
@anissueofursincerity my view of annihilationism allows for punishment according to what each one has done.An eye for an eye so to speak.Those are God's scales of justice..to repay deeds fairly.
howdytheresir 3 weeks ago
@howdytheresir
That is reasonable.
anissueofursincerity 3 weeks ago
@anissueofursincerity At the end every one will recognize that God is just, end every knee shall bow to God. And there will be tears, etc etc but there will not be eternal torment. When we judge Mao, Stalin etc etc. we talk as if some of us are much better. We all fall short of the Glory of God, says the bible. We are all lost without Calvary.
medusa210562 4 days ago
And what of the 'Lake of Fire'? Is that a "lie" also according to you Kellie?
HaGibbor 3 weeks ago
@HaGibbor no.
howdytheresir 3 weeks ago
@howdytheresir Isaiah 66:23And it shall come to pass, THAT from one new to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: FOR THEIR WORM SHALL NOT DIE, NEITHER SHALL THEIR FIRE BE QUENCHED; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
jamjr1972 4 weeks ago
@jamjr1972 right..worms and fire symbolize destruction.Eternal ones..eternal destruction.Not life,of course.In these texts you paste,are the worms and fire on CARCASSES or souls that can't be destroyed?Think about it.
howdytheresir 4 weeks ago
@howdytheresir Isaiah 41:14Fear not, thou worm Jacob, AND YE men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the Lord, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. (Thou Worm) is Jacob's Soul...There's a difference from the spiritual Worm and the earthly Worm. Think about it.
jamjr1972 4 weeks ago
@jamjr1972 please answer my initial question.Thanks.I think it's important to understand God's symbolism for destruction and what better symbols than worms that devour carcasses(so nothing is left) and fire that consumes(Matt 3:12..where the chaff gets utterly consumed in the fire you say preserves it alive!)So,I repeat,what are the fire and worms on in Isaiah 66?Carcasses or souls that can't be eaten or devoured at all?
howdytheresir 4 weeks ago
@howdytheresir Thought i answered it with Scriptures....I believe Isaiah 66:23-24 Is about Hell a place for The Second death that burns forever. Revelation 14:10-11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they HAVE NO REST DAY nor NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
jamjr1972 3 weeks ago
@jamjr1972 maybe you could try to answer my simple question again from the texts themselves.Worms and fire on :
1. carcasses or
2.souls that are not capable of becoming carcasses
a simple 1 or 2 will do.
howdytheresir 3 weeks ago
@jamjr1972 Isaiah 34:9,10 talks about fire and smoke being day and night forever and ever.Guess what?They went out because it's talking about the eternal destruction of Edom in symbolic language and imagery.Go to Edom and find the smoke and fire.You won't be able to.You can't interpret texts in Revelation that borrow Isaiah's symbolic language and interpret them outside the biblical usage of these terms and phrases.Well,I guess you can.But it would be a mistake.
howdytheresir 3 weeks ago
@jamjr1972 And Jacob being called a worm has nothing to do with God's destruction imagery in Isaiah 66:23,24.That should go without saying.
howdytheresir 4 weeks ago
The King James Bible 1611 is the final authority.Luke chapter 16 is not a parable.The rich man died and in Hell he lifted up his eyes. The soul never dies.Then from Hell you will face the white throne judgement.The second death means eternal torement in the lake of fire.Rev,20 read the chapter.The Holy Bible was spiritualy written and is spiritiualy understood.Jesus taught everlasting torement,day and night ,no rest.Satan says"no eternal fire"because he is a LIAR. Duane Risko.
thefireshow1 1 month ago
@thefireshow1 the king james bible isn't my final authority.That would be crazy since it's only a translation of the original hebrew and greek.Souls get destroyed and die in many a text.(Ez. 18:20,Matt. 10:28).Google Patrick Navas Revelation 20:10 and hopefully it will at least give you some food for thought?In Isaiah 34:9 and 10 the fire and smoke is forever and ever.It went out!It's symbolic for eternal destruction.Go to Edom and see if it's on fire.
howdytheresir 1 month ago
Hey while I do agree I have one potential, biblical, problem with this view. I hold the view presented in this video but this counter argument has been giving to me and it stumps me.
1) John 3:16 if you believe in Jesus you will have everlasting life
2) Even the devils believe in Jesus
3) Therefore devils live eternally
4) Devils will not enter heaven
5) Therefore, Devils must live eternally in the lake of fire, the Abyss, or some other eternal place of punishment, commonly referred to as Hell.
TheJohnVandivier 2 months ago
@TheJohnVandivier In John 3:16,the text is talking about everlasting life in the Kingdom of God.Not everlasting life in gehenna.(hell)..Read Romans 6:23,where again we have death and life contrasted.One's a gift where we breathe..the other a curse where we don't.
howdytheresir 2 months ago
@howdytheresir Thanks! So even the Devils suffer a permanent death and I would suppose this takes place at the lake of fire and that it is a spiritual one, but not an everlasting continuous torture.
Another couple questions b/c you seem to know what you're talking about 1) what do you think about Catholic scripture and/or apocraphyl scripture and 2) what do you think about the Recovery version of the Bible, Witness Lee, the local church movement and that whole thing? we can msg if u want! thx
TheJohnVandivier 2 months ago
@TheJohnVandivier Feel free to pm me about anything,but I'm in the process of learning too!Sounds like you could probably educate me about some things.I've not yet educated myself on the Recovery bible nor the Apocrypha either.I have read some stuff,but to me it seems that the 66 book canon we have now fits together beautifully,while some of the other books(and I haven't read them all) would seem out of place.Just a feeling though.No dogmatic opinion.
howdytheresir 2 months ago
I love this video. LOVE IT.
TheJohnVandivier 2 months ago
@mas03 right.I believe the wicked will perish because I am brainwashed by Charles Taze Russell.Makes sense!!
howdytheresir 2 months ago
@howdytheresir What do yo mean by perish?
mas03 2 months ago
@mas03 The same thing you would mean if you said someone perished.
howdytheresir 2 months ago
@howdytheresir I believe in it means hell, but you dont. You dont believe in it even though its in the bible.
mas03 2 months ago
@mas03 Where did I say I don't believe in gehenna?(greek word for hell)I just happen to care deeply about what it really is.It was a garbage dump in Jerusalem where carcasses and trash were consumed.Where worms ate up what was left.It didn't preserve anything infinitely!
howdytheresir 2 months ago
@mas03 So when Jesus preached about it,the Jews understood he was communicating destruction,not preservation.The worms and fire language from the NT are borrowed from Isaiah 66:24(for one) where,again,*destruction* is conveyed.The meaning didn't suddenly change in the NT.
howdytheresir 2 months ago
MOVIE COMING SOON!
True Story of 1 man's search for Trurh!
Hell is not Eternal Burning!
Hell & Mr Fudge Promo (Copy & paste or type in to SEE TRAILER)
Georgephyl 2 months ago
Here is the answer.The Christian Canon(Humans) which created God and wrote the bible had far too much time on their hands.People have been creating Gods since the beginning of time.What makes the Christian God any more real than the others?Nothing, because it was all just made to make people feel good about themselves for doing what people claim is good.Religion is a mental disorder, a parasitic belief complex and a disease of the mind.It has been proven.People are weak.Reason they still believe
Subways69able 3 months ago
what about the testimonies of those who visit hell?
those who see people they knew from the past still there suffereing
doin12doin 3 months ago
@doin12doin I don't get truth from uninspired visions of men but rather from God and Jesus who said gehenna consumes and the wicked perish.
howdytheresir 3 months ago
So please tell me , if hell does not exist what happens to those that reject Jesus Christ.
MrMaxTruth 3 months ago
@MrMaxTruth gehenna exists.It destroys both soul and body.People are punished according to their deeds & thrown into the lake of fire with death and hell.What happens to death eternally?Then you'll have your answer for what happens to the wicked since they are thrown the same place.
howdytheresir 3 months ago
@howdytheresir gehenna exists! that is your belive right? so arguing with others who belive in hell? how sure are you that that gehenna place exist or that hell does not exist? or how sure what you belive is 100% accurated? give me evidence not pre historic non sence books please. thank you
Musashi850 3 months ago
@Musashi850 Gehenna IS the Greek word FOR hell.Translators translated three words as hell..sheol,hades,and gehenna.Gehenna was a literal trash heap where trash and carcasses of the dead were consumed in fire.Worms ate up what wasn't.This was Jesus's intent with his imagery.Destruction.Eternally.That's "hell."Those who say gehenna never consumes have to assign it a new function and meaning to fit a tradition Jesus never set.
howdytheresir 3 months ago
"Hell" means grave, Christ died to ensure eternal life to avoid "hell" or "God's wrath" (which is death a result of adam and eve) to those who believe. "Hell" is simply dead in the grave with no eternal life.
When you actually understand the bible you learn that the "fiery place" doesn't happen until Christ returns in revelations to make "bad people" experience the "second death" AKA death of the soul.
Conclusion, there is no "Hell" in Christianity as modern culture portrays it.
Agree 100%
StubbleJoe 3 months ago
"Hell" means grave, Christ died to ensure eternal life to avoid "hell" or "God's wrath" (which is death a result of adam and eve) to those who believe. "Hell" is simply dead in the grave with no eternal life.
When you actually understand the bible you learn that the "fiery place" doesn't happen until Christ returns in revelations to make "bad people" experience the "second death" AKA death of the soul.
Conclusion, there is no "Hell" in Christianity as modern culture portrays it.
Agree 100%
StubbleJoe 3 months ago
"Hell" means grave, Christ died to ensure eternal life to avoid "hell" or "God's wrath" (which is death a result of adam and eve) to those who believe. "Hell" is simply dead in the grave with no eternal life.
When you actually understand the bible you learn that the "fiery place" doesn't happen until Christ returns in revelations to make "bad people" experience the "second death" AKA death of the soul.
Conclusion, there is no "Hell" in Christianity as modern culture portrays it.
Agree 100%
StubbleJoe 3 months ago
"Hell" means grave, Christ died to ensure eternal life to avoid "hell" or "God's wrath" (which is death a result of adam and eve) to those who believe. "Hell" is simply dead in the grave with no eternal life.
When you actually understand the bible you learn that the "fiery place" doesn't happen until Christ returns in revelations to make "bad people" experience the "second death" AKA death of the soul.
Conclusion, there is no "Hell" in Christianity as modern culture portrays it.
Agree 100%
StubbleJoe 3 months ago
If Hell is a lie than Jesus Christ was a lier. Who knows more about the topic of heaven and hell. You or Jesus?
MrMaxTruth 3 months ago
@MrMaxTruth Jesus..but he expected us to know what gehenna was and did of course.He didn't expect anyone to believe it destroyed and consumed corpses one place and did the opposite another.
howdytheresir 3 months ago
@howdytheresir I am consistent. Smoke will indeed rise in hell but that does not mean it will escape from hell like the smoke rising from a burning house and rising into the atmosphere. It sounds like you belive God will be unable to keep that smoke from escaping out of hell. That which is in hell stays in hell.
MrMaxTruth 3 months ago
@MrMaxTruth Ahh..I see!So hell is like Vegas!Seriously,if you will allow scripture to define it's OWN TERMS,then the "smoke that ascends forever and ever" is ABOVE GROUND.That's where it was in the OT when Edom was utterly destroyed.That smoke was a symbol and testament of an everlasting destruction.Yet you boldly suggest it's not.That it's below ground and a testament to infinite sadism.That's NOT how to bible defines it it if you allow Jesus to exist within the OT context he incorporates.
howdytheresir 3 months ago
@howdytheresir "Hell" and "the lake of fire" are two separate places.
shoe6464 3 months ago
@shoe6464 There is Sheol and Hades(the grave where Job begged to go for relief from misery)Then there's gehenna.There can be a resurrection back to life from sheol,but not from gehenna.Gehenna not only destroys,but destroys eternally.It destroys both your body AND your ability to ever live again.
howdytheresir 3 months ago
@howdytheresir
Could you explain what you think Gehenna is exactly? Is it fire? non-eternal I'm assuming? if one goes to Gehenna does he disappear instantly?
I don't agree with you regarding the non exists of the wicked, however I'm interested in your scriptural reasoning ?
shoe6464 3 months ago
@shoe6464 Like I just told some other commenter,gehenna was a literal garbage dump where trash and carcasses of the dead were consumed in fire and eaten up by worms.It is a place of literal destruction,not preservation.The bible says that each one will be punished according to his deeds then be destroyed and consumed,becoming ashes essentially.(Micah 4:3)
howdytheresir 3 months ago
@howdytheresir Please can you also tell me why Jesus refered to the words "wheeping and nashing of teeth." doesnt this imply pain? If it is only symbology then what is the symbology of?
MrMaxTruth 3 months ago
@MrMaxTruth Where did I ever say that there wouldn't be anger or pain in the punishment of the wicked?
howdytheresir 3 months ago
@howdytheresir You make some good arguments. My concern is the truth. I will however re-read the passages you have mentioned and consider what you have said. I do not like to think that i am so closed minded i wiil never change my mind. -Thanks.
MrMaxTruth 3 months ago
@MrMaxTruth Thanks.You could start by reading the essay I have linked on my page here for those who believe like you.Then I highly recommend watching Ed Fudge explain every hellfire "proof" text within their actual biblical contexts on my "hell is a lie" playlist.Watch the first few vids when you have the time.
howdytheresir 3 months ago
For dust you are and to dust you shall return refers to the physical body not the spirit. How does our spirit turn to dust?
jacobholstein 4 months ago
@jacobholstein It doesn't.Breath of life can't turn to dust..It just returns to God who gives it back in a resurrection when we think and breathe again.Till then,thoughts and breaths have perished.When God breathed into Adam's nostrils,he came alive.God didn't breathe into Adam's nostrils an immortal being.Simply the breath of life!
howdytheresir 3 months ago
@howdytheresir Thank you so much for pointing this fact out. Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (KJV) Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. It never says God gave man a soul, it says man is a living soul.
alexjblackford 2 months ago
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
bvaliant4theTruth 4 months ago
@bvaliant4theTruth Check out the first few videos on my hell is a lie playlist and the essay linked about hell on my page here.You will get great biblical exegesis of "proof texts."I have a video about Rev. 14:11 too.Take a looksie.
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@bvaliant4theTruth --- The rich man and Lazarus is VERY easy to demonstrate... it is NOT talking about an individual man's afterlife experience. Jesus gives descriptions of each man... and then he talks about their destinies. Those two men are emblematic of two separate people groups which were about to undergo prophetic fulfillment: The House of Israel and The House of Judah.
quentedlin 3 months ago
@quentedlin I would love to agree with you my friend but it sounds like Jesus is talking about an individual man. Jesus begins by saying "there WAS a certain beggar named Lazarus." That sounds like Jesus is describing a real person with real events to me. Its also how I would go about describing a real story about a real person today.
MrMaxTruth 3 months ago
@MrMaxTruth Why can't those men represent groups of people as symbols,as would befit a parable?Who made this "name" rule?Did God?Or did men come up with it to uphold a traditional literal view of CLEARLY parabolic texts?Isn't it in a series of parables?If you're going to take everything in it literal,am I to believe that in the perfect kingdom where you're promised peace and bliss that you will be speaking to frying souls?
howdytheresir 3 months ago
@howdytheresir If i say there was a car accident in the street that envolved a man called Bill most people would take it on face value that i was telling you something that i had personally witnessed and that I knew the person involved. Anything else would not only be a lie but would make a nonsence of the English language. Furthermore Jesus describes Hell as being a place of fire and torment. Was he lieing? Why not just say seperation?
MrMaxTruth 3 months ago
@MrMaxTruth Jesus borrowed intense hyperbolic imagery and language from the book of isaiah.All you need to do is read texts like Is. 34:9,10 and 66:24 to let the bible define what he meant for you.You don't have to come up with a new interpretation.Watch my video about Revelation on my hell playlist.And the Ed Fudge videos.I could take any parable and say that the language means something.Question is..are they literal or not?If Rich man is then there will be tears in the kingdom.Impossible!
howdytheresir 3 months ago
@MrMaxTruth Unless you will be able to peacefully and blissfully dialogue with frying flesh(the rich man had a tongue)infinitely as you tread in the kingdom.Give me a break.I suppose you also believe in God's eden there will be smoke rising eternally.Guess the kingdom will be polluted.Sorry for the sarcasm but I only ask that you reason here.
howdytheresir 3 months ago
@howdytheresir I'm sorry but your understanding of scripture is baffeling to me. You say " in God's eden there will be smoke rising eternally.Guess the kingdom will be polluted." What the hell are you talking about? Why would there would be smoke in eden ? If you mean smoke from hell then your assuming God does not have the ability to keep that which is in hell from getting into his Kingdom. That must be the worst example of the justification of a belief i have ever heard ! Sorry.
MrMaxTruth 3 months ago
@MrMaxTruth In scripture the rising smoke was a testimony of an infinite destruction in the OT.Are you suggesting it meant something else in the NT?The smoke didn't rise underground concealed from the earth.Are you suggesting it will?If you're going to take one thing literally,then you must be consistent.
howdytheresir 3 months ago
God's love & mercy either endures forever or it doesn't. He cannot punish people for all of eternity and have grace & mercy endure forever. One has to be true and one has to be a lie. Since the Scriptures say over and over again that it endures forever, I believe it lasts forever. God will judge fairly, how He sees fit. The Bible does not teach eternal punishment. He tells us to love our enemies. Will He turn around and eternally torment His? Love never fails.
whatthehellbook . com
whatthehellbook 4 months ago
Light = knowledge. Knowledge (science) = not walking on the wilderness. We don't use our time to walk towards light (science) we will burn in hell ( Helium) the sun will expand and consume earth. Giving the human race a fiery death....looks like someone has advice us to walk closer to god...who is awfully smart...so science is the way =)
kitzenmovies 4 months ago
Baptists invented Hell.
Luigi84289 4 months ago
Matthew 10:28 KJV
King James Version
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. -Christ
clear
2emeraldeyes 4 months ago
@2emeraldeyes:
Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Did you follow 2Tim 2:15? Hell: G1067 - geenna - valley of Hinnom. Root: H1516 - gay' - valley, narrow gorge. Yes, it is clear, no forever burning tormenting hell, but the grave.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto Elohim who gave it.
MinisterQuietBuck 4 months ago
@2emeraldeyes Yes it is clear. Think. If the body and soul are destroyed in hell, doesnt "hell" sound more like a forever death rather than being eternally alive suffering? The word destroy means: to put an end to; extinguish, so how can something that is destroyed or put an end to, be forever alive being punished? If you think rationally "hell" is just putting an end to life or in other words death.
LYL20000 4 months ago
I believe the Bible and what Jesus says.The lake of fire lasts for etenity Hell is just temporary.Rev 20 prove it.The Authorized KJV is the only Bible that talks about burnig forever.Luke 16:24 Matt 25:46Rev21:8 2 thes 1:8-9 rev 20:10 all say hell,everlastingpunishment,and the lake of fire.The Bible says other wise.It's foolish to decieve people like this you will answer to God for it.You are reading a false bible get a KJV and look up these versus.
TheKJVforever 4 months ago
@TheKJVforever you might at least think about checking out the other side of this argument.I think you will find the refutations both biblical and sound IF you allow scripture to interpret itself and define it's own terms.Watch Ed Fudge debunk every "proof" on my hell is a lie playlist.
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@howdytheresir greatest trick Satan ever created -> convincing the world he doesn't exist and that there is no Hell
WhiteWings901 4 months ago
@WhiteWings901 or maybe it's convincing the world that God is more sadistic than he is and that perish means eternal life in flames?That ashes means eternal souls in flames?Yeah,Satan's tricky allright.
howdytheresir 4 months ago
The wages of sin is death.....however, we are energy, and energy does not die, it simply changes.
So when our physical body dies, the energy of our soul/aura will be changed and live forever, for we are eternal beings.
waterandphotons 4 months ago
@waterandphotons Actually,if we receive the GIFT of immortality that Adam LOST by exercising faith in Christ..ONLY then are we "eternal beings."The bible says God alone is immortal..Anyone else made immortal isn't that inherently unless God gives that gift to them.
howdytheresir 4 months ago
Hell is described in old testament and new testament, it goes into decriiption of how hell looks like and the soul being tormented, search scriptures.
darkaus32 4 months ago
@darkaus32 Watch the first few videos on my hell is a lie playlist when you get the time.At least try and understand why folk like me believe like we do and how when you allow scripture to define it's own terms,the fate for the wicked is always a literal destruction,perishing,ashes..etc.
howdytheresir 4 months ago
Says in the book of Revelation, chap20:ver14, {that death and hell were cast in to the lake of fire},,,, and most of people, ain't got the guts to read the next verse,15....
indianbiker777 4 months ago
Where did Jesus save us from? From his wrath maybe? :P
coolboysoldier1 4 months ago
@coolboysoldier1 read john 3:16
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@howdytheresir
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; SO shall the Son of man be THREE days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Some would say Gehenna the greek word for hell. Don't talk nonsense cause you havent been in Gehenna yet, and you will see it, if you continue your deluded ways of thinking. Gehenna exists, because The word of God says it is, and we believers dont follow false teachers. Repent!
coolboysoldier1 4 months ago
@coolboysoldier1 You sir need to repent if you propagate a FALSE view of gehenna.Gehenna always,I repeat always,consumed carcasses and trash.It didn't preserve anything.
howdytheresir 4 months ago
(free-standing comment -a general reply) -- Nonetheless, I would ask this question:
Whether hell is permanent destruction or, rather, permanent torment, does it make a difference in either of these 2 areas?
1) Matter of practical application: EITHER version of hell is NOT to be desired.
2) Scriptural basis for salvation does NOT depend on one's understanding of this issue -i.e. this is not a salvation issue.
In my 'When Babies Die,' paper, however, I show a bad understanding can cause murder!
GordonWayneWatts 4 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts Wouldn't your paper prove that hell is a bloodguilty doctrine?Not only for those reasons,but also because it keeps some people from God and gives them an excuse not to love him because who could fathom infinite unimaginable sadism?These are some of the reasons why it matters so much!
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@howdytheresir Which paper? My paper on the nature of hell or instead my paper in the eternal fate of Babies who die B4 the age of accountability? Both papers are in the 'Theology' section of my namesake blog, found at 2 mirrors -one with my full name & one with just my 1st & last name, a listed in my YouTube profile. When you say blood-guilty, aren't you judging God? Are you able to tell God what is morally right and what isn't? ANY version of hell pushes me TO God since I don't wanna go2 hell.
GordonWayneWatts 4 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts Am I not allowed to have a conscience,sense of justice,common sense,and morals?They're God given!I also don't see the point in trying to force my own interpretation on easy texts when the bible interprets them for me.For instance,if unquenchable fire literally destroys acc to scripture,then I don't pretend it preserves eternally.I can't pretend ashes means imperishable souls.Or that death and hell are annihilated in the lake of fire but the wicked aren't.Nonsense.
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@howdytheresir Also, with respect to sadism, if a person rejects God, he or she deserves anything he/she gets! -- So, this alone is reason enough to not try and judge God -- Also, the so-called "parable" on Lazarus and the rich man does NOT say it IS a parable, and in fact, Jesus says a 'certain' main... I agree this is not the best argument for the nature of hell, but as I said above, you can not sit in judgment and tell God what is moral and what is not. HE alone is qualified to so judge.
GordonWayneWatts 4 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts I agree you can't tell God what's moral.But he told ME what is.If you contradict him on a subject like this,you're misrepresenting and blaspheming him.I am scared of that for sure.I believe easy scriptures like john 3:16 and Mal. 4:3.I will allow the bible to define it's own synmbolic terms when they're used.You?
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@howdytheresir you're right that we can't tell God or force his hand (a point I make in my When Babies Die paper regarding those who insist that a mother killing her baby will FORCE God to accept him/her into heaven for ETERNAL salvation... Not. Salvation is based on His grace & our faith, and nothing more and nothing less. Period --and no woman can force God to admit her child eternally LOL, but some try). Since I addressed symbolism in my last reply won here. Did u c my When Babies Die paper??
GordonWayneWatts 4 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts I saw it(I only skimmed it),and it should make you try and understand the truth about gehenna instead of defending the sadistic tradition of men that inspires such madness.If I thought hell as propagated by the blind spot in orthodoxy were true,I would have to live with my mind shut off from thinking logically and my heart shut off from feeling before i could live with even the idea of it,much less the reality.Sick.People who propagate it don't get the purpose of God's kingdom.
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@howdytheresir If u read all of the position paper in my Theology section of my namesake blogs (listed in my YouTube profile) you'll see I try HARD 2B fair: 2 examples:
1) In my Soul Sleep paper, I admit both views have support & admit I DON'T know the answer
2) In my 'When Babies Die' paper (by Gordon Wayne Watts -e.g. me but 4 those of u Google searching, here are yr search terms) I lay out FIVE (yes! 5) positions on the end fate of babies & admit it could be position #5 (even tho I prefer #4)
GordonWayneWatts 4 months ago
@howdytheresir According to gotquestions website we must take the part where it says "eternal" literally. My response: oh really Hell is eternal? Daniel 7:14 compare with 1 Cor. 15:25. If we should take prophecies literal rather than in the sense the prophets understand them we have a problem...ENEMIES ARE GOING TO BE RUNNING AROUND FOREVER!
Danielezerable 4 months ago
@Danielezerable the language is borrowed from places like Isaiah 34:9 & 10 where the smoke was day and night forever and ever.Clearly,it went out!Not literal at all.It's symbolic hyperbolic language for eternal destruction that is irreversible.People would have to admit that's the case for Edom in Isaiah 34 yet choose to pretend a completely different interpretation is applicable where they'd like to uphold a sadistic tradition.
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@howdytheresir i know personally some who wont turn back to God becasue of the teachig of hell. so, it does push people away
SixStringDeity 4 months ago
The Bible does not teach eternal punishment. God's love & mercy endures forever. Does it really endure forever or only in this life? How can it be Good News if it doesn't translate to the afterlife? God will still judge but He will not punish forever. He's a better father than we are, right?
1 Tim 4:10 This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
whatthehellbook . com
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@howdytheresir I just finished listening to it -- yes, the Old Testament mentions destruction, but this may refer to the body, not the soul: The OT is metaphorical. For example in Ps 13:1-4, David says that God has forgotten him and has hidden His face from him. Oh, really? Is this literally true? No, this too is metaphorical!
God is fair and impartial: It's against His nature to punish all sinners equally!
Go, instead, to my blog (listed in my YT profile) & under 'Theology,' see my Hell paper
GordonWayneWatts 5 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts Let me get this straight..destruction,ashes,consumption,death,existing no more,and perishing are all "metaphorical"?
But eternal worms and smoke that never goes out are literal?
that seems odd to me.Sounds like perhaps you may have it backward.
howdytheresir 5 months ago
@howdytheresir - Yes = it ALL can't be literal ... see my following response below :)
GordonWayneWatts 5 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts Isaiah 66:24 says that the worms are on *corpses*(as opposed to souls never dying) and in Is 34:9,10 the eternal smoke went out eventually..it symbolized eternal destruction.Likewise,unquenchable fire in texts like ez. 20:47 LITERALLY destroys..it doesn't preserve.We must use texts like this to help us understand gehenna's symbolism in the NT.Otherwise,we're just interpreting NT passages out of their OT context.Read the essay linked on my page here when you can.
howdytheresir 5 months ago
@howdytheresir Is 66:24 says that “they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases [not necessarily “dead” carcases] of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.” Deut 14:8 & Ez 6:5 qualify that there were “dead” carcases implying that NOT all carcases are dead! So their worm doesn’t die; their carcases aren’t dead: Eternal punishment is just for anyone who rejects The Christ!
GordonWayneWatts 5 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts So God uses common sense literal DEATH imagery(like worms because they consume literal carcasses) to instead communicate eternal life in flames that never consume when worms and fire BOTH consume?Makes no sense.I have heard the excuse..well,they're eternally consuming..which is as ridiculous as saying Christ is eternally begotten.It's made up.Sometimes when "eternal" is paired with nouns of action,it's the CONSEQUENCE that's eternal as opposed to the action.
howdytheresir 5 months ago
@howdytheresir - Well, when it says that their worm doesn't die, this indicates an eternal nature for those in hell -- BUT, I hasten to add that whether Hell is eternal torment or mere destruction, suffice it to say that you will NOT be denied salvation based on a bad understanding of this issue (as salvation is due to our faith and His grace -period), and furthermore, in EITHER case, Hell is NOT good, and 2B avoided.
GordonWayneWatts 5 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts For example,with eternal redemption,eternal salvation,and eternal; destruction..There is no "eternal redeeming process",no "eternal saving process",no "eternal destroying process..There is a ONE TIME redemption,salvation and destruction that all last eternally.This is easy.
howdytheresir 5 months ago
@howdytheresir I disagree: Scripture records eyewitnesses who SAY Hell is scary as opposed 2 mere destruction: Demons (who KNOW about hell) in Mt 8:29 Mk 5:7-12 & Lk 8:32 BEGGED Jesus to not send them to hell. Why not? THEY knew something WE don't know. ETERNAL Pain! Otherwise they'd have no objection to committing suicide.
Also since Scripture says there ARE degrees of sin, God being impartial, there must ALSO be degrees of punishment, which isn't possible if ALL unsaved are equally destroyed.
GordonWayneWatts 5 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts Where did you get that sinners not in Christ won't have degrees of punishment before they're killed?I believe God will mete out a just punishment according to what each one has done,as opposed to an unjust punishment according to what no one could ever do.If you're honest,even you'd agree that if you watched Hitler burn long enough,it would not only bother you,but destroy you too.
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@howdytheresir I *do* believe in degrees of punishment for the degrees of sin - however, since some sinners are NOT punished completely in this temporal life before they pass on and (physically) die, obviously, the punishment in degrees for sin in degrees would have to carry over to satisfy Scriptures (which I cited in my other reply addressing 'Degrees of Sin' Scriptures) - I agree God is just, impartial, & fair, but how do you think it would destroy ME if God put Hitler into eternal heat? Huh?
GordonWayneWatts 4 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts Did I not just say that when the wicked are resurrected that they will get a "degree" of punishment before the lake of fire *consumes* and *destroys* them?According to their deeds,as opposed to according to Dante's whims that Christians have mistakenly adopted as their own.
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@howdytheresir - Regarding yr comment here about the resurrection 2 receive a 'degree' of punishment (as opposed to a sentence or judgment, but without the punishment at that exact time), yes, that is possible, but does not necessarily exclude other forms of punishment.
So, the punishment need not take place at either 'when' they are resurrected vs. 'after' the resurrection to be complete -- either way, punishment happens, so this proves neither case.
GordonWayneWatts 4 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts And you'll have to pardon me for thinking that those in the kingdom of God would be righteous sadists(which isn't even possible..the two notions are incongruent) if they could live in bliss and peace while most of mankind is being subjected to the worst possible imaginable act of infinite sadism.Do you not understand that if you could live comfortably with that that you would then be sadist?Are you fair and just or sadistic?
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts Do you also not understand that we desperately NEED the kingdom so that all evil will be gone forever?So why are you proposing that the world could or would be perfect when evil is perpetuated eternally?We don't worship the same God.
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@howdytheresir And if your excuse for being blissful and peaceful despite infinite sadism still in existence is that it will be in another realm,then I would like to know why that matters.Are you any less appalled by starvation and war and suffering just because it's not in your own home?Will you cease to be sentient for the suffering of others while you're in the kingdom and they're burning up eternally?Unbelievable.Destruction is understandable for a number of reasons.What you propose is not.
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@howdytheresir Lack of understanding of the same God is not necessarily lack of worship of Him. NO 2 people completely agree on all points regarding God, but salvation is dependent on only 2 things: His grace (first, and foundationally) and then our faith (without which it is impossible 2 please God).
GordonWayneWatts 4 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts Where is the "degrees" for your view?Don't you think they all burn in the same lake?For the same amount of time?I'm sure the demons will be punished worse than anyone before they're put out of existence.Why would they WANT that?Why wouldn't they be scared?I can't believe people are comfortable pretending banishment from a kingdom and everlasting life isn't punishment for sinners.If a serial killer got the death penalty,no one would say he wasn't punished.
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@howdytheresir YES banishment IS punishment. Proof of degrees of sin? Deut 25:2; Num 15:29-30; Deut 25:3; Lk 12:47-48 "certain number of stripes according to his offense" Zech 1:6 "according to our ways, and according to our doings, so hath he dealt with us" Mt 5:22 lists 3 degrees of sin Mt 10:15, 11:24; Lk 10:12 "It shall be MORE tolerable for the land of Sodom" Prov 24:12, Mt 16:2, Rev 20:12-14 "according to his/their works" Jn 19:11 GREATER sin=Lk 20:47 GREATER damnation Heb 10:29 James 3:1
GordonWayneWatts 4 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts So you believe bodies will be preserved forever?I thought the orthodox view was that they aren't..only the souls.And read your comment.I do not mean to be offensive,but can I be honest?It sounds desperate.It would be easy to reason about this if you allow yourself to.
howdytheresir 5 months ago
@howdytheresir No, the physical bodies will not be preserved at ALL -either for the lost or the save. Rather, 2nd Corinthians 5:1-6 says that we will be clothed in a heavenly body after this body is dissolved. (See the KJV 4 the best rendering of this passage, but compare also with the NASB and the AMP, 2 other literal & thus very accurate translations.)
So, we can infer that the lost will also have eternal spiritual (not physical) bodies.
Man is created in God's image, and GOD is eternal! LOL
GordonWayneWatts 5 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts But didn't you just say that according to Isaiah 66:24 that the BODIES will have worms consuming them eternally?Or will you finally admit the NT borrows language from there and it means a LITERAL destruction that lasts eternally?
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@howdytheresir Quoting from the very reliable KJV, part of Isaiah 66:24 says that: "for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched"
"Shall not die" connotates an eternally continuing action. If they're destroyed, how can the worm avoid dying!?
"neither shall their fire be quenched" also denotes something that will NEVER happen, and thus it will eternally be unquenched.
That doesn't sound like destruction, where the thing is destroyed at some point (and the fire quenched.)!
GordonWayneWatts 4 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts Worms signal death..not life & awakeness...breathing,and aliveness.If they "never die" that is symbolism for a CARCASS(as opposed to an unkillable soul)NEVER breathing,living,or being alive again,which worms never dying signify..ETERNAL DEATH.Conveniently enough,(again),the bible says the wicked will be ASHES.That's simple language.And the worms are a simple symbol.How can you keep ignoring that the fire and worms are on CORPSES.NOT alive souls!
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@howdytheresir If the worms were indeed signaling death, the writer would have said that "Where the worm dies," however, he chose to say the opposite: The worm NEVER dies = Eternality.
Also, ashes, which hint at death, nonetheless do not mandate it, especially if they are symbolic = not literal.
Using Scripture 2 interpret Scripture, Mark 9:47b-48 hints that their worm is their soul. What other translation could be correct here? 'Animal kingdom' worms? If so, then how could they not die?
GordonWayneWatts 4 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts Again,SYMBOLS.Worms symbolize death..eternal worms eternal death.If the worms don't die,it means the person never wakes up again.The worms not dying means the person is dead..forever...
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@howdytheresir you wrote: (""Again,SYMBOLS.Worms symbolize death"") -- Question: Using Scripture to interpret Scripture, where do you find Scriptural warrant to assign that symbolic meaning to the worms themselves (as opposed to the things which the 'literal animal' worms might eat)?
GordonWayneWatts 4 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts their never dying is symbolic for a death that is irreversible.The worms are on corpses.Keep this in mind.Corpses have flesh and they aren't breathing functioning souls.
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts Check out ez 20:47,amos 5:6,Matt 3:12..unquenchable fire does it's job then goes out.That is,if you allow scriputre to define it's own terms.But I don't think you will from what I''ve witnessed.You're quite determined to NOT allow scripture to interpret scripture.It's tradition-threatening.Let me know after you read these texts if the things that get destroyed by the unquenchable fire are preserved in it and whether or not the fire went out after it destroyed.
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@howdytheresir - Perhaps you have a point here that an unquenchable fire could go out, but nowhere in Scripture is there a mandate that it *must* *necessarily* *have* to go out. -- If, however, the worm (singular, not plural as you quote!) never dies: Isa. 66:24 mentions the worm (singular) never dies, then it means just that: It NEVER DIES. Don't add to Scripture. That is supported by Matt 25:46's claim of "everlasting punishment." Note: It does not say: "everlasting destruction."
GordonWayneWatts 4 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts this goes right back to everlasting and eternal being the results of the action and not necessarily the perpetuation of that action.Examples AGAIN:eternal redemption and salvation.Christ isn't continually redeeming.He did it once and it lasts eternally.And if you're going to take a biblical phrase and say it means something,the smart thing to do would be to examine other texts where it's defined FOR YOU.Not to make up a new interpretation to uphold a tradition of men.
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@howdytheresir - Perhaps you have a point here that an unquenchable fire could go out, but nowhere in Scripture is there a mandate that it *must* *necessarily* *have* to go out. -- If, however, the worm (singular, not plural as you quote!) never dies: Isa. 66:24 mentions the worm (singular) never dies, then it means just that: It NEVER DIES. Don't add to Scripture. That is supported by Matt 25:46's claim of "everlasting punishment." Note: It does not say: "everlasting destruction."
GordonWayneWatts 4 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts ONE example:
Amos 5:6:he will sweep through the house of Joseph like a fire; it will devour, and Bethel will have no one to quench it.
What do we get from this honestly?That the house of Joseph will be preserved forever in a preserving unquenchable fire?Of course not.That the house of Jacob will be DEVOURED in a fire that cannot be quenched.(it does it's job..what fire does.)Why would you assign unquenchable fire a different meaning sometimes?To uphold a tradition?
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts why does the bible say God ALONE is immortal?Why did God tell Adam and Eve they would die if they couldn't?We're not supermen.Immortality is a GIFT.Not an inherent "given".He created man to BE immortal but men lost that gift.Why do you think Christ had to come?
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@howdytheresir Q: "why does the bible say God ALONE is immortal?" -- A: Perhaps this refers to the body, not the soul? -- Q: "Why did God tell Adam and Eve they would die if they couldn't?" -- A: Adam and Eve's death was spiritual death, not physical. In Genesis 2:17, God said they would die the SAME DAY they sinned ("for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"), so since we know they did not *physically* die that day, the death spoken of MUST be SPIRITUAL death = not immortal
GordonWayneWatts 4 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts God said:
you shall surely die
It is Satan who says that death means life in some capacity.Not God.Death is the opposite of life.In life,people think and breathe.In death,not so much.Again,the bible makes this so clear a child could understand.From cover to cover.
howdytheresir 4 months ago
@howdytheresir well done mate - top stuff. I am amazed at the sheer ignorance of the majority of christians on this subject - from pastors to theologians to laity... I spend much of my time spreading the truth regarding the lie of eternal damnation. People force their own pretext understanding into scripture and ignore historical and biblical context - its such a mess, but I believe, in time, truth will overcome the lie. Its good to know you are out there!
etherform66 4 months ago
You're wrong: For example, Rev. 14:9-11 indicates that the torment (not mere destruction) shall be forever for mankind who worship the beast:
9...If any man worship the beast and his image...
10...he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night [In other words, FOREVER, based on language above: "for ever and ever"]
PS: Matthew 25:46 says: "everlasting punishment" NOT everlasting destruction!
GordonWayneWatts 5 months ago
@GordonWayneWatts what a coincidence.Check out my video on Revelation 14:9-11 and watch the first couple videos on my hell is a lie playlist.God bless!
howdytheresir 5 months ago
@howdytheresir - I've run up on many coincidences here recently -- I'll search your uploads 4 that vid -- thx 4 th heads up.
GordonWayneWatts 5 months ago