Part 4 Does God Lie or Can He Be Involved with Deception

[paramattic70]

Contd- I don't argue Against God in the same way I don't argue with someone who thinks the Moon is made of cheese.

[paramattic70]

The existence of God is not even a worthy argument. As a child I was raised Christian. I became an Atheist when I actually read the Bible. I didn't have to spend all my energy defending it and justifying it's cruelty. I was able to read it without being told that god is love or forcing myself to agree. There is no way of justifying, metaphorically or contextually smashing a baby against a rock(psalms 137). Arguing is a pure waste of time. Just the same I wouldn't argue with someone who thought

[halolIlmao0]

Christians defend this monster. They even justified him sending lying spirits.

[Gamer1990100]

God does lie, that bastard...

[fantom2004]

i think god lied to me and i c**** on his mother f*** in-front of his f***

QQ :(

[vdizhoor]

Maybe there is no Absolute Truth. It may depend on the context, on perspective, on point of view.

If you take the Bible literally, then it is filled with contradictions. But if you treat it as a collection of very insightful fictional tales, written by writers who remain anonymous then a lot of meaning opens up. There is a lot of truth in some Bible books. Its factual authenticity is irrelevant. A red herring.

Isn't your beef more with creationist dogmatists rather then religion in general?

[middlekk]

@vdizhoor

Really? The bible is insightful?

Have you actually read the thing?

No kidding, if you separate the "insightful" parts from the truly awful parts, you're left with the Beatitudes (which is more wishful thinking than insightful), and some of Ecclesiastes.

Entire books of the bible are nothing but a Bronze Age version of World of Warcraft. Most of the NT is superstitious nonsense (really? virgins?). One 8-paragraph list does not turn a book into an "insightful" anything.

[vdizhoor]

@middlekk

I am not advocating any kind of worship at all, or a wedge. They way I see it, religion basically corrupted a lot of good stories. Aren't there any Greek myths you like? Any of them have any value? Yes, they are fairy tales, but there is a hint about life at the core of those tales.

Have you read Proverbs? They date to Egyptian times, advice passed on through ages? Can't you relate to the expulsion from paradise? Or what Job is about?

[middlekk]

@vdizhoor

No kidding, there's no such thing as "paradise", so any concept of expulsion from an imaginary place holds absolutely no interest for someone in the reality-based community.

Job is torture porn. Nothing more and nothing less than an all-powerful dickhead visiting troubles on an innocent person merely because it can. (Actually, it was a bet with Satan.) You think that provides "insight"? What insight? Might makes right? Sorry, I don't buy it.

[vdizhoor]

@middlekk

That's one way to read it. But I think that Expulsion from paradise is about each of us loosing their innocence as they grow up. Satan is right - they didn't die. They learned that they are mortal. The world of blissful ignorance evaporated. Something each of us goes through as a child. This world is paradise, we just don't see it that way as adults because it is also filled with troubles and worries. God, Snake - these are just forces of nature given a human face.

[middlekk]

@vdizhoor

It's a "just so" fable. What kind of insight is a "just so" fable? None. It has absolutely no bearing on reality.

No kidding, you're trying to redeem fairy stories and imbue them with meaning that not only isn't there, but was never there in the first place.

[vdizhoor]

@middlekk

What do you mean "Just so" fable? Also, what's wrong with fairy tales? Or science fiction? Do you see value only in things that actually happened? Do you like Wizard of Oz? Is there any truth to it? Do you hate Star Wars, because its unreal too?

I think your beef is probably not with fiction but with the religious institutions, dogmas, creationist brainwashing, etc. I wonder if we had this conversation when Jehovah joined Zeus, would you find anything good in the Bible?

[middlekk]

@vdizhoor

There's nothing wrong with fairy stories...as long as people don't claim they're THE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD.

No kidding. It's the fact that people BELIEVE this bullshit, rather than take them as mythology, that is the WHOLE PROBLEM.

There is NOTHING good in the bible, save the 8 paragraphs I mentioned before and a few lines of fairly nice poetry. The rest is execrable. Torture porn and little else.

[vdizhoor]

@middlekk

And Job - the main character is Job. Might makes right? Maybe that isn't the point - I think its about accepting that sometimes shit hits the fan and there is nothing anyone can do about it and there is no explanation for it. And if we keep asking ourselves questions "why me" to which we feel we are entitled an answer - we torment ourselves. Its about acceptance. Letting go.

The dialog between Job and his friends is the crux of the story. God/Satan - that's just a backdrop.

[middlekk]

@vdizhoor

Of COURSE that's the point! Job -- a completely innocent person -- has his world turned upside down by a malicious dickhead of a god because of a BET with Satan. Job isn't about "letting go" -- it's about the demand of god that it be worshiped even when it deliberately destroys your life. Hence the whirlwind at the end.

Really, have you actually READ the thing? Because you seem to be familiar only with a cartoon version.

The bible is unredeemable under any circumstances.

[vdizhoor]

@middlekk

Dickhead? But he doesn't even exist! :) People still suffer. Job is one of the oldest books in OT. It stuck with people for some reason. Who wrote it? Why did they write it? Put yourself in th e author's shoes - what is he trying to express? The thing with the bet is only the first three chapters. There are like forty more.

What does it mean - unredeemable? Its just a collection of books. By many authors, with varying often contradicting ideas. Are Greek myths unredeemable too?

[middlekk]

@vdizhoor

A mythological dickhead. No kidding.

Who the fuck cares who wrote it or why? Maybe people are masochists. No kidding.

The difference between the bible and Greek mythology is that NO ONE CLAIMS GREEK MYTHS ARE THE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD.

No kidding, if you can't tell the difference in the context of our modern world, then you're hopeless.

[shortplank]

To say that God is a liar is blasphemous It was the Serpent who lied everything was ok till the Serpent tempted eve. As a result we became separated from God. Look at what is wrong in the world today Why do people believe in man made theories such as evolution? So everything happened by chance? Yeah, course it did lol. Then how come the greatest scientists in the world dont know how to make a fruit fly e.g. and cant even cure the common cold?

[Spetsop]

@shortplank

Is that so? God clearly isn't omnipotent because creation wasn't perfect after all! He clearly isn't omnipresent because he wasn't around that day when the serpent tempted Eve! He clearly isn't omniscient because he didn't know that his creation will turn against him! Or if he did then he decided not to prevent it, let humanity fall, and then start killing them off because of their fall (that he could have prevented)!

You're God is not God, he's a figment of human imagination!

[Spetsop]

@shortplank

Also, speaking of theory of evolution, how it's man made and therefore shouldn't be believed... don't forget to mention theory of gravity, the atomic theory, the germ theory, etc.!

No one said everything happened "by chance"... only creationists say that! Oh and I didn't know that to be a great scientist you have to be able to make a living fly! Absurd!

P.S. There are PLENTY of effective treatments for common cold (an infection that was thought to be caused by the "devil" before)!

[onijester56]

@shortplank God stated that "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” [Genesis 2:17].

What happens WHEN they eat from the tree? "Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves." [Genesis 3:7] They then proceded to live for over 900 years.

So God lied. It's in the Bible.

(cont)

[onijester56]

(cont)

"Why do people believe in man made theories such as evolution?" Because reality supports it. Logic supports it. Every single argument against it actually supports it. In fact the biggest evidence is that the very principles that it relies on, if not the process itself, is observed by people every single day.

"So everything happened by chance?" Chance is actually a very small component and everything that requires chance has been observed to some degree; and most to all.

(cont)

[onijester56]

(cont)

"and cant even cure the common cold?" There's plenty of cures to colds, from house-hold remedies to over-the-counter medicines to pre-emptive attempts including vaccines..

However any absolute elimination of the 'common cold' would be impossible predominately as viruses (which cause colds) evolve and are KNOWN to evolve and have BEEN OBSERVED evolving.

Which is funny in that viruses ARE NOT ALIVE and yet BIOLOGICALLY EVOLVE (meaning that they evolve as though they are alive).

[brightsorcerer]

A huge part of this issue has to be what or who the Israelite "god" really is. Yahweh was simply one of numerous pagan and heathen deities being worshiped in that area of the world, at the time and the Jews chose it as their own personal god. It is impossible to look at the teachings of Christ and the maniacal ravings of Yahweh (embellished or made up by the likes of Moses and Abraham) and not see the huge difference. Unfortunately, most "believers" seem to have a very closed mind about this.

[MrNintoku]

Apparenlty god never changes. But should we compare between the old and new testements we find that the old says he is vengeful (may not be actual wording) and the new testement he is a all loving god (may not actual wording but you get the drift).

[scumbubbles1]

God can not lie because god isn't real

[lukepevensie]

i thought the savior just told us the kingdom of heaven is within, now the church may claim that paul or peter put it there

[SpearofDestiny0]

Perfect Video 2 Thumbs Up :)

[jamesreasin]

WoW! I never knew this. I now know why I can't believe Obama and this proves Clinton a big damn liar too.

[BootyBot]

@jamesreasin hell ya and bush too. and nixon. especially nixon.

[polopowers1]

God cannot lie which means you cannot understand truth.God sent a lying spirit but directly is not involved because that spirit was a liar

[holysinecure]

@polopowers1 Why would an all-knowing god, who knew the spirit was a liar, send it to affect the decisions of a man?

Better yet, if god sent a lying spirit, how can it be said that he was not involved with deception?

[Underlings]

@polopowers1 If you fire a gun to kill someone, can you logically claim to be not guilty of murder because it was actually the bullet that did the killing? Of course not. So when God sent a lying spirit to lie for him, HE was the liar. The lying spirit was merely the tool he used.

[SonofBlacula]

@polopowers1 Yeah, it's like that time I had my friend strangle my neighbor's kid to death and hide the body in a fridge in the woods. I'm not guilty of any crime or anything, since I didn't actually strangle her myself. Right?

[RefutingPolytheist]

@polopowers1

If god sent a lying spirit then he was also lying. If you send a killer to do the work for you, do you get charged accordingly in court? Of course you do. If a man has his friend lie to his wife for him, did he lie to his wife? yes, and you bet your ass the wife is gonna ask the husband why he deceived her. Stop being a moron and use your brain.

[polopowers1]

God cannot lie

[polopowers1]

uznnuinuwencououncoucubuoubcuo­unucuuouobducbbcbuocbucuousodb­ucdsccou  uuucc

[smoothintentions]

I can't say enough how much this series opened my eyes. I am so excited for my new outlook on life. This is the greatest thing I have ever had the pleasure of seeing.

[holysinecure]

@smoothintentions Thank you for watching. We hope to be producing again as time allows.

[archdeaconj]

Well, the Bible is supposed to be the word of God yet it is choc-a-bloc with demonstrable falsehoods, out-of-date cosmology, scientific nonsenses, contradictions, inconsistencies and other absurdities.

[786hanif]

check genesis 18:12-13

the christian god lies to abraham directly.

please explain this.

[gobblox38]

god is a compulsive lier, he is not to be trusted.

fantasy books can be confusing though. do lord of the rings, its a much better story than the bible anyways.

[sircorter]

thats all grand and well but you left out 1 little detail that kinda screws the whole thing up. All Christians live by the new and study the old for understanding. therefore the old is obsolete and no longer is accepted. Hebrews is the only thing u can use and since in the new testament it has never crossed itself it is true...

[BootyBot]

@sircorter really? because last time I checked the 10 commandments (old testament) is in pretty much every sunday school classroom in America.

[uberjim83]

In Genesis, God tells Adam that if Adam eats fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, then he will die on that very day. Jesus told his followers that the coming of the Kingdom at the end of days would occur within their lifetime. At no point in the Bible does anybody claim that God is incapable of lying.

[intelligentfalling]

Nice. What always bugged me was the "Thou Shalt Not kill" jargon, when like 4/5 of the old testament is "Thou Shalt Kill, and here are the people that I want killed"

Some of the flaws in the bible are so obvious that it really takes self deception not to notic.

[tiggster13]

Great Vid! I subbed!

[pienipaha]

Not very all-powerful if he can't lie...

Except that omnipotence negates itself.

Darnit .

[dtrylz]

Very good video series, very well reasoned. I've saved them all to my favorites. I'm sharing these with my wife, who is still a believer.

As a side note, you may want to fix the typo in the video title ("Involded" should be "Involved").

[Ravindra9689]

Great work, I'm new to this whole video making thing ^_^. Yes, he can indeed lie, what with the lying spirits he throws around.

[clownschuhe]

So by using the statements in the bible we can point out God can indeed lie. But then again, it is in line with the statement "God is incapable of lying" (which is demonstrably bullshit.)

So, as a conclusion, everything claimed to be "God's will" can potentially be bullshit. And very likely it is. Especially if it involves you giving out your money (time, and loyalty) to God. God ALWAYS wants your fucking money.

[LeksServices]

But to say that god can not lie is to limit god. God, being all powerful, has no limits, so he can lie until we're blue in the face! Gods ways are not our ways.

[Fangtorn]

Well thats alright then, at least we know we can trust his trustworthyness(word?).

Maybe he lied about not being able to lie.

[tiggster13]

God is the one who says that he can't lie.

So god is either limiting himself (which he should know he can't do) or he was lying when he said he can't lie.

[LeksServices]

To be honest, I'm one of them weirdo alien worshippers. I was just playing devils - erm - gawds - advocate by saying what christians would tend to say. It's amusing how they play twister with themselves and their theology.

[PluralOfEverything]

Don't forget in genesis when Yahweh told Adam and Woman that if they eat from the tree of knowledge, they would die that very day.  They ate from it, and they didn't die until like 900 years later.

[Captain42x]

Not only that, but god promised Noah after the flood - "never again will I destroy all things, as I have done". Ooops I guess Peter must have forgotton about that one -

2 Peter 3:10

What a liar!

[Katalyzt]

Indeed... Did you know that out of the two; the fictional god character was the first to lie in Gen 2:17. And the fictional serpent character was the first to speak the truth to Eve in/at: Gen 3:4-5. Which is later confirmed by the god character itself at Gen 3:22.

I entreat any christian to read chapters 1-3, or the whole book of Genesis to confirm the context for yourself.

P.S.

Cool video... ★★★★★

Katalyzt

[LordHines420]

god is good. oh wait i just lied lol.

[BananaHurricane]

Heck yeah, Black Crowes in the end!

Great series, I subbed to you.

[LogicIsDying]

I've always thaught that god being unable to lie pretty much shows he is not real. If he is omnipotent he can do anything by his and the word's definitions. Yet being unable to lie means he is not all powerful. It could be a moral judgement on his part (scary thaught considering his other "moral" judegements) Then he goes ahead and lies anyway, making this of course, a contradiction to his character. Which any contradiction shows he is not perfect and obviously not god.

[xCrazyJayx]

I'm really enjoying this series. So glad it showed up on FFreethinker's channel.

[InModiasWeTrust]

Excellent work, Holysinecure! I am in the process of watching your entire series. If you don't mind, I would like to use some of your work in an indirect way for the next episode of my series "The Psychology of Creationism and Faith". If you haven't yet seen my videos, I hope you will take a few minutes to check them out. Keep up the amazing work!

-Modias

[RhinoStompin]

The real question is:

What is Good?

If it is good it is God.

If it seems Good it is Satan.

If it is Bad it is Satan.

If it seems Bad

It is God.

[tiggster13]

Was lying to Ahab good?

Or did it just seem to be good at the time?

[C0ldhead]

My brain chills all the way down my spine, when you say "must be true" Urg!

[middlekk]

Hold the phone...god can't lie?

If god can't lie, then some higher power is preventing him from doing so. Which means, he's not all-powerful.

Either that, or he's lying when he says he can't lie.

So, either god can't be trusted, or he isn't god.

Nice choice.

[vdizhoor]

@middlekk

What if God has no Ego? no Gain? If Evil is selfish and Good is selfless and real people somewhere learning to turn from former to latter - then a picture of a God with an Ego is a picture of Devil. If absolute power corrupts absolutely, then the only way for God to not become the Devil is to have no Self, to not exist. Otherwise its a human with unlimited power. Maybe Bibles anthropomorphic notions of God shouldn't be taken literally? Otherwise the plot holes are too obvious.

[middlekk]

@vdizhoor

I'm fine with that definition. Such a god does not demand worship, tithing, churches, tax breaks, or undeserved power of preachers in government affairs. That god doesn't condemn people for not believing in it. Nor does it seek to exert control over who we love, how we live, what hats to wear, whether we can eat bacon, who to marry, how to enjoy sex.

As long as you don't use that god as a wedge to insinuate a very different god into being, feel free to believe in it.

I won't.

[baysideful]

@middlekk

God can not lie because it is not part of his belief!!

why are u so angry?

[schinth]

Amazing .. Eye opener..

[holysinecure]

You know, I hate to admit it, but I literally laughed out loud when I read your comment. For some reason I envisioned someone with both hands in the air saying this slowly, palms forward, fingers wiggling, while using a "spooky" voice.

This biblical story was *not* taken from the NPV (National Pharisee Version) but a commonly used King James version derivative.

The prophet lied at god's direction and when his feet were put to the fire, he fessed up about lying.

[bdf2718]

Ahab never caught Moby Dick, either. So there!

[holysinecure]

All these spirits hanging out listening to god lamenting about how he is going to get Ahab killed. One floats up to him and says, "i'm your huckleberry". God says, alright, get it done!

[watnabe]

I worship you.

[holysinecure]

Now, Now, let's not get carried away ;)

[HConstantine]

The lying spirit passage clearly goes back to a point in tradition when the ancestor of the biblical text exited in a polytheistic milleau.

[HConstantine]

Creationists sometimes claim that all the fossils and other evidences for an old earth and evolution were created by God as a test to see if people will beleived reason or him. Then you have that whole Abraham sacrificing his son business.

[holysinecure]

Temptation & Testing - Part 6 ;)

[heyalun]

1 Kings 22 was one of the hardest scriptures for me to understand when I was becoming a Christian. Basically the context makes it clear that this angel was deceptive because Ahab didn't want the truth. So he could have said something like, "God's desire will occur on the battlefield," to the false prophets.

God is not lying, but he's letting people who don't love truth believe what they want. The one recognized by Ahab as a true prophet of God, Macaiah, told him as much. (1 Ki 22:7, 8)

[holysinecure]

Ahab didn't need to be told to go to war since he had no other divine direction, but to attempt war prior to god's involvement.

God undeniably took an active part in Ahab's deception.

The divine text's phrasing of "go out and do so" or "God will send them strong delusion" are not a passive "letting" as you suggest.

In both instances, god is *not* passively allowing someone to disbelieve. Rather, god is actively involved with their deception.

[heyalun]

"God undeniably took an active part in Ahab's deception."

Yes. He wanted him dead, so he used his own apostate thinking and behavior against him.

You may or may not know, in Biblical language if God allows something he is often said to do it. So in 2 Th the source of the delusion is "lying signs" from Satan and their own rejection of truth. Still some read, "God lets an operation of error go to them," or "God will give them up to the power of deceit."(2 Th 2:9-12 NWT, Bible in Basic Eng)

[holysinecure]

"Yes. He wanted him dead, so he used his own apostate thinking and behavior against him."

No.

God sent a lying spirit who affected what the 400~ prophets said to Ahab which directed his decision to go to war.

Also, what specific "apostate thinking" or "behavior" of Ahab's would want himself to be killed in war?

By your thinking in this Ahab scenario, God eradicating evil by any means necessary enables any convicted believer's wicked deeds against those he considers apostates. (jihad)

[heyalun]

"what specific "apostate thinking" or "behavior" of Ahab's would want himself to be killed in war?"

I didn't say he wanted to be killed, but he didn't want to listen to God. So when Jehoshaphat, who was faithful, was not satisfied with the false prophets, but wanted "a prophet of Jehovah" to council them, Ahab said, "I myself hate him, for he does not prophesy good things." (1 Ki 22:7, 8) So he wanted prophets that would tell him what he wanted to hear and he got them.

[holysinecure]

"I didn't say he wanted to be killed, but he didn't want to listen to God"

So god had him killed by proxy, just like in the bomb example in the video.

[heyalun]

"So god had him killed by proxy, just like in the bomb example in the video."

No. In your example, you are consulting the bomb expert and following his instructions because you love your relative. Ahab *did not* consult God and when his ally insisted they consult him he protested saying that he hated his representative. And when the truth was revealed to him *by God* he charged into battle anyway because Ahab wanted to do what Ahab wanted to do.

[holysinecure]

"he charged into battle anyway because Ahab wanted to do what Ahab wanted to do"

Which was....kill himself and his men?

400 bad prophets say go to war. One "real prophet" deceives in the same way and somehow Ahab is to blame?

You being intent on Ahab having a deathwish isn't plausible or even rational especially when the scripture documents god's involvement with the deception.

[heyalun]

"Which was....kill himself and his men?"

No. Did you even read the whole account? He wanted to go to war against Syria to capture Ramoth-gilead. You might also want to read the preceeding chapter where Ahab and his wife murdered Naboth and steal his land which is partly why he had a death sentence. (1 ki 21:19)

"Bananas instead of bibles..."

It would be bananas *and* Bibles. They might look at the top. And this is not even on the same spectrum as suicide bombing. Get real.

[holysinecure]

Rationally, it isn't even in the same ballpark, but we are talking about the bible not reason and rationality .

Lying and deception is a sin. According to the bible, sin is transgression of god's law. Murder is sin as well. Any transgression separates you from god.

For any believer of the bible, lies/deception and murder are both sin and worthy of spiritual death.

I'm not saying it makes sense, I'm just telling you what the man-written book says.

[holysinecure]

Also, I know what the story and its context are.

It doesn't change the fact that god used a lying spirit to lie to Ahab.

[heyalun]

"lies/deception and murder are both sin"

Murder is definitely sin, and deception is generally unacceptable, but it is allowable in theocratic warfare. You're simply wrong here. There are multiple instances of deception that are blessed by God, like Rahab's protecting of the spies or Jehu ridding Israel of Baal worship. (Jos 2:4, 5; 2 Ki 10:19)

It's an understandable mistake, but a mistake nonetheless.

[holysinecure]

We will address those lies specifically in part 10.

There is no mistake between what god says he is or allows versus what he does.

It is an understandable mistake since the bible was written by fallible men not an infallible deity.

"allowable in theocratic warfare"

Sounds not too distant from Jihad bil Saif.

Again, you don't want to see the similarities of permitted misdeeds with other religious adherents, but people not in the christian bubble see it plainly.

[heyalun]

"you don't want to see the similarities of permitted misdeeds with other religious adherents"

"Permitted misdeed" is paradoxical.

What you're making is a mistake that I find common among unbelievers. You're being literal and legalistic with the Bible in a way you aren't in your life.

Let's say your daughter is confronted by bullies and she says, "Look behind you!" and runs. Do you punish her for being deceptive because you've taught her to be honest? Does that action make her dishonest?

[ohviolet]

"Let's say your daughter is confronted by bullies..."

I don't have a problem with her lying in certain situations where she as a free thinker deems it necessary...if she were hiding jews in the attic and Nazi's knocked on the door I'd be proud if she lied to there faces. I think where your going wrong with this analogy is that I don't claim perfection and I don't claim that I'm incapable of lying - but God does. We are weighing his claims against his actions. The scale is not balanced.

[holysinecure]

*"Permitted misdeed" is paradoxical.*

It *is* a self-contradictory and false proposition and your remarks prove that point.

"deception is generally unacceptable, but it is allowable in theocratic warfare"

I'm going on what the bible says and what believers like you say as in your quote above.

Claiming justification for misdeeds that are said to be wrong in divine text because of perceived permission or acceptance from a divine authority of the divine text is as you said, paradoxical.

[holysinecure]

...and as it relates to "permitted misdeeds" as being paradoxical, you can throw in slavery, genocide, & poor treatment of women into that category.

When the biblical god does any of these things, or he sanctions it whether for judgement or whatever reason, to Christians, the action seems to cease being wrong and they will defend it at all costs.

For anyone else (non believers), those actions still are and clearly always were wrong.

[heyalun]

"For anyone else (non believers), those actions still are and clearly always were wrong."

So you would think it's wrong for your child to deceive the bully trying to hurt her by saying, "Look behind you!"?

I wouldn't. God wouldn't. (Matthew 10:16) I understand if you do, but that is not the standard the Bible sets. This may be a case of you confusing the Biblical standard with your own and then seeing contradiction every time your standard is broken.

I thought of a way for you to understand:

[heyalun]

Criminal and civil cases in Israel were tried by authorized judges or officials. (Deut 16:18) For facts to be established 2-3 witnesses to an event had to be produced. (Deut 19:15) This prevented any single person from punishing another for any offense - no vigilantism. There was this exception: If a thief broke in at night and was killed, the killer was exempt from punishment. (Ex 22:1-3)

So it wasn't a case of a "permitted misdeed," but it was a practical exception to the rule.

[holysinecure]

With regard to permitted misdeeds, and the bible making judicious, evenly-enforced practical exceptions:

What about Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5). From a practical perspective their witholding some of an offering of personal property they sold seems reasonable. It was afterall *their* property. Their deception was fatal.

What about Uzzah (2 Sam 6:1-8)? Steadying the ark so it wouldn't fall seems reasonable, but he was struck dead. His helpful hand was struck dead.

Is this fair justice?

[holysinecure]

First, I am not beholden to laws or rules set forth in the bible.

My child in a threatened situation has latitude to do whatever is reasonable to avoid confrontation. For the record, she punches like a man.

It's not my standard, it is the inconsistent & contradictory one in the bible (see comments above).

[heyalun]

"My child in a threatened situation has latitude to do whatever is reasonable to avoid confrontation."

So although you encourage honesty (I assume you do) in this situation you do not require it, at least not in the same degree.

It is the same with God. He doesn't just gives dos and dont's but gets specific and gives case studies. Christians no only have to be honest reactively, but proactively. But there are absolutely instances where withholding information or deception are required.

[holysinecure]

I encourage free thought and rational understanding of circumstances not adherence to arbitrary whims of a pernicious and punitive deity as revealed by his purported inspired words.

This is something the bible doesn't do, primarily because it was written by men.

What about the case studies in Acts 5 and 2 Sam 6:1-8 ?

[heyalun]

"I am not beholden to laws or rules set forth in the bible"

And you don't understand them. Ananias and Sapphira tried to lie to those to whom truth is owed, namely their brothers and sisters, and "played false to the holy spirit." (Eph 4:25)

I don't even see how Uzziah's case involves honesty, but he was playing a sacred role and disobeyed God. (Num 4:15)

[holysinecure]

You are ignoring that in both cases, their actions seem to any rational person, a normal thing to do.

Yet, abiding by the letter of the law, god imposes death sentences on both sets of people in those biblical scenarios.

You are saying there are circumstances in which bending of the declared infallible laws is acceptable. Unforunately, god applies his laws inconsistently and it is up to his whim as to how fairness is employed.

This will be discussed in part 7 of the series.

[heyalun]

"in both cases, their actions seem to any rational person, a normal thing to do"

It's normal to disregard God, lie to your friends, and disobey the law?

"You are saying there are circumstances in which bending of the declared infallible laws is acceptable."

No, I'm not. A milion times, *NO.* How can you misunderstand me still after all of this explaining?

Rules of warfare (physical or spiritual) are different and allow for withholding truth and manipulation. (Mat 10:16; Acts 23:6-9)

[holysinecure]

I am not misunderstanding you, your position simply has no substance.

If you can't understand that Uzzah had no ill intent, but rather intended to keep the holy relic from falling and yet he was still killed for breaking the law, then you are missing some basic capacity for reason and understanding and I feel like we will be mutually wasting our time in continuing this discussion.

That being said, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts in a civil manner.

[heyalun]

"Uzzah had no ill intent, but rather intended to keep the holy relic from falling and yet he was still killed for breaking the law"

I mostly agree.

Let's say that before you leave home for an hour you leave these instructions: 1. The dog stays in the house. 2. Your kids don't leave your yard.

When you come back home your kids are running all over the neighborhhood, not because they wanted to break "2," but because they disregarded "1" and the dog jumped the fence. Are they in trouble?

[heyalun]

I was thinking about how varied world views can be and how even though I understand you two's views it's amazing that you don't see things like I do. Then I remembered about this particular incident that David was both furious and terrified over Uzzah being killed. He didn't understand either...not for three months. Look at the account at 1 Chronicles 13:6-14; 15:1-14. Carefully compare Numbers 7:6-9 with 1 Chronicles 13:7 and see that touching the ark was not the only illegal act.

[heyalun]

"God eradicating evil by any means necessary enables any convicted believer's wicked deeds against those he considers apostates."

Not any means necessary, but we can decieve enemies of truth. For example: If a country has banned preaching, which is an obligation for Christians, we continue but keep it from the eyes of the authorities. This may mean disguising materials (e.g. Bibles in a crate labeled "bananas") and intentions. It's lawful for us. (1 Sam 21:13; Acts 5:29)

[holysinecure]

The shades of allowances you are personally willing to concede certainly do not match all convicted radical believers christian or otherwise.

While you may not have a problem with committing deception with regard to bibles and bananas, other religious zealots have no problem with blowing up everyone on a bus.

However, what you both have in common is empowerment from the divine in biblical examples such as with Ahab to perpetrate wicked deeds under the guise of piety or "doing gods will".

[heyalun]

"other religious zealots have no problem with blowing up everyone on a bus."

That has nothing to do with me or the Christian congregation.

"what you both have in common is empowerment from the divine in biblical examples such as with Ahab to perpetrate wicked deeds"

What wicked deeds? Preaching peace to people? I guess it depends on how you define "wicked."

[holysinecure]

No its how you feel like you can separate yourself from other religious believers who use god as an authority or reason for misdeeds. Bananas instead of bibles is on one end of the spectrum, and blowing up a bus or a skyscraper is on the other end.

I am not specifying christianity because it isn't relevant. What *is* relevant is religion using a divine authority for whatever misdeeds against humanity it is willing to perpetrate - like genocide, slavery, or murder shown in the Old Testament.

[holysinecure]

We are getting off point anyway, the point is that we are agreed that god was actively deceptive to rid himself of Ahab.

God says he doesn't lie, deceive, allow lies or deceivers in his presence, and he does the exact opposite by actively using deception which resulted in Ahab's demise.

[ohviolet]

Heyalun, I'm glad you agree that God lied here, because that is the whole point of our argument.

God says he doesn't allow liars in his presence but was hanging out in heaven with one, made an agreement with him and sent him to lie to Ahab. God's prophet lied saying "the lord will deliver the battle into your hands".

Here are 2 things god says he doesn't do...abide the presence of liars and lie.

Whatever you say about Ahabs character doesn't change these 2 facts.

[heyalun]

"I'm glad you agree that God lied here...God says he doesn't allow liars in his presence "

No I didn't agree.

Some translations call the angel a "deceptive spirit" and although the line between lying and deception is often fine or nonexistent, it makes a big difference here. It's the difference between God initiating a bad idea and using a person's own wickedness against them. Our society even makes lawful distinction between the two (e.g. entrapment vs. a decoy car to catch auto thieves).

[ohviolet]

Yes, Ahab surrounded himself with yes men. But when he inquired of a true prophet of God at the behest of another, GOD LIED through that prophet. The scripture is clear about that. If Ahab would have done what he wanted anyway knowing God was against him then God lied for nothing. He just lied. Whether it's for a good reason in your mind or not it doesnt' change the fact that God who says he cant lie does so. If God says he's one way, then prove himself to be another then how can I believe him?

[heyalun]

"when he inquired of a true prophet of God at the behest of another, GOD LIED through that prophet."

No he didn't! That's how we get the peak into heaven to see what God did. Macaiah told Ahab that he would die in battle and that his false prophets were wrong.

[ohviolet]

"No he didn't!"

Yes he did.

Macaiah told Ahab that little piece of info AFTER he tells him God's lie : "Go and prosper, for the Lord will deliver it into your hand" Ahab pressed him to swear it was the truth and Macaiah bucks up and basically says "you really wanna know? ok, I'm lying and God made me do it - here's how it went down in heaven this morning because god wants you dead"

God talks to a lying spirit, has Macaiah lie for him, then macaiah tells Ahab after the fact.

[heyalun]

"Macaiah bucks up and basically says "you really wanna know? ok, I'm lying and God made me do it"

That is *not* what happens. He does not say or imply that God made him lie.

[holysinecure]

Then you are neglecting Ezekiel 14:9 where God says: "And if the prophet is induced to speak anything, I the LORD have induced that prophet..."

Macaiah and the ~400 prophets lied to Ahab by direction of god ("And the LORD said, 'You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so'").

There is no getting around it or redefining language to make it say something else.

[ohviolet]

We know god's responsible for all the lies of Ahab's prophets and your suggesting that he is not responsible for Macaiah's lie in vs 15? strange-Macaiah doesn't deny it when one of the indignant prophets asks him about the lying spirit going into Macaiah after it left him in vs. 24.

God can't *not* abide liars in his presence and yet hang out with them in heaven and use them to delude people. He can't be incapable of lying if he puts lies in peoples mouths via spirits.

[heyalun]

"Macaiah doesn't deny it when one of the indignant prophets asks him about the lying spirit going into Macaiah after it left him in vs. 24"

ohviolet, this is not the same as the "deceptive spirit" mentioned in verses 21-23. It is "THE spirit of God", or his holy spirit that he uses to reveal prophecy. (2 Peter 1:21) Zedekiah is saying that he's the one that has it, not Macaiah.

I do understand how you're reading this account now, but you're off.

[ohviolet]

In vs 23 Macaiah declares God put the lying spirit in all of the prophets. Immediately Zedekiah strikes him and incredulously asks "which way did the spirit of the Lord go from me to you?" as if he's questioning the validity of Macaiah's prophecy and asserting his own.

Since both were prophets(Ez 14:9), both told the same prophecy (Macaiah's is in vs 15), and both prophecies were untrue it wouldn't be a streach to think the spirit of the lord referred to in vs.24 is the same lying spirit.But

[ohviolet]

even if you don't credit the lying spirit with Macaiah's prophecy there's some things that you still have to wrestle with.

1.macaiah's prophecy (which was the same as the lying spirit induced prophecies) starts out as a lie (vs 14 he says it's what god ordered him to speak) until he's ordered to swear to tell the truth. only then does he divulge the "truth"

2. God fraternizes with lying spirits that are hanging out in heaven with him and commands one to lie in his name, yet god can't lie

[ohviolet]

I think you're getting bogged down on the confusion of the source of Macaiah's prophecy instead of addressing God's lies and deception throughout. It's hard to reconcile how God's perfect and cannot lie when he is and does just the opposite.

[heyalun]

"God fraternizes with lying spirits...and commands one to lie"

NASB - "deceiving spirit"

Complete Jewish Bible - "deceiving spirit"

The Bible in Basic English - "spirit of deceit"

NWT - "deceptive spirit"

As I said, I don't think God commanded a lie, but did as 1 Corintians 3:19 says: "He catches the wise in their own cunning." His stated orders are to "fool Ahab," not to lie. Again the difference is akin to entrapment v. a sting operation.

[ohviolet]

Heyalun, Heyalun.

I understand your need to defend him in this situation but the evidence in scripture is there. Thank you for all of your comments.

[heyalun]

"the evidence in scripture is there."

We'll conclude agreeably then, because I do agree. Thank you for a pleasant exchange.

[ohviolet]

I personally think Macaiah's declaration in vs.14 that "everything that the Lord says to me, that will I speak" preceding his prophetic lie places the blame on god. Prophets are lying left and right in this story and most of them don't even know it's all a ruse by god. Macaiah does and he speaks the same lying prophecy citing god as the source.

That is hard to reconcile if you are to believe god can't lie and can't abide liars.

[ohviolet]

I think if you'll go back and re-read chapter 22 you'll see the sequence of events. yeah, lots of "prophets" are talking out of thier asses in this story but that doesn't change the fact that Macaiah credits God for all the lies (vs.23) and the god consults a lying spirit and uses that spirit to lie through his own "true" prophet. It's pretty plain man.

[Vertaeufelt]

Another great video, this is turning out to be a really good, informative and well reasoned series! Looking forward to the rest!

[holysinecure]

Thanks for the comment Vertaeufelt!

[holysinecure]

Thanks a lot dunwrkn4. More to come. We are already working on the script to part 5 ;)

[WhoopMQ]

Awesome video, just like the rest of the series.

I think perhaps most Christians subscribe to a censored or altered version of what is still marketed as 'the word of God', where the main message is love and forgiving. Unfortunately, even ignoring the fallacies involved (omniscience AND human free will? impossible.), the package is a lot uglier, as shown in these videos. I wonder how many Christians even know about the slaughter mentioned in the previous video...

[holysinecure]

Thanks for the comment WhoopMQ. I think you may be right.

Still, my hope is that the relentless assault of expanding human knowledge with regard to science (and related biblical stories), the slowly growing population of freethinkers, atheists & agnostics, and us raising our children to question, that we are a generation or two away from largely outgrowing the juvenile, ignorant, and fallacious adherence to organized religion.

...or maybe I'm just being a Pollyanna.

[WhoopMQ]

Hopefully you're right.

Another hope is that religion will eventually become so contrived that people will stop believing in it. However, that doesn't seem to effect those who have been indoctrinated since birth - I mean, since emotion comes from the brain, what is the function of the soul? Judgement? That also is the responsibility of the brain. Maybe it's just some kind of ethereal piggyback on the human body, etc. Religious sentiments will become less believable and more obviously incorrect

[holysinecure]

I agree completely. Especially as it relates to fundamentalist Christians that hold that the bible is divinely inspired, literally interpreted, and inerrant. More and more information comes out clearly dispelling those notions.

I guess we can always hope :)

[dunwrkn4]

#1

"This topic addresses the unchanging consistency of god."

John Polkinghome, author, scientist and theologian has stated that it is part of God's nature to be consistent and that it would be inconsistent for God to go against His own laws unless there were an overwhelming reason to do so.

Gotta love the "unless" part which totally invalidates all that came before.(cont)

[dunwrkn4]

#2

A recent study shows that American belief in a God remains high but those that take the Bible literally is on the decline. A generation or two might be optimistic but cracks are starting to show. Another 5 star effort on your part.

[krazzylad]

great points, your making to much sense :)

[holysinecure]

Thanks for the comment krazzylad.

Like ProfMTH has suggested in an earlier video comment, having previously been a believer, it makes me wonder how I subscribed to this stuff to begin with.

I think initial belief comes down primarily to being the religion of your parents/caregivers.

Adherence to religious belief after rational thought and critical thinking are available is somewhat of a mystery, but we managed to make it out.

[EctoBuzz]

Thumbs up! Subbed! Can't wait for part 5

[holysinecure]

Thanks for the enthusiastic support!

[FinnHawk]

well done! keep up the good work! :)

[holysinecure]

Thanks for the comment FinnHawk!

[holysinecure]

Thanks for the comment Inqoinf.

[Inqoinf]

Great as always!!!