What does she mean she's not mad at the woman? I'm mad at her! She should know that it is wrong to hurt her dog. It keeps surprising me how little research people do before they buy a pet they will have for 10-15 years.
my dog is just under a year, recently he manages to jump ontop of our brick fence and jump into the neighbors yard. or outside. consequently i keep him on a 15 foot chain when i am not around. however i still take him out multiple times throughout the day and get him exercise. I have decided i want to get a shock collar and put up a boundary wire around the perimeter of my backyard. i still intend to get him the exercise he loves. what do you guys think?
@Kzinix Wait... It seems like you may be making a strong statement in absolute terms based on something you heard from Victoria after she allowed some woman that you've never met and know nothing about said a shock collar felt like needles. Is that about right? In other words, you feel comfortable speaking in absolute terms on a subject that you have ZERO first-hand knowledge about?
@GriffGruff78 I've read about shock collars and I've seen plenty of people who wanted to test it on themselves. I can assure you that it didn't seem to feel like a pleasant massage around their necks. In addition to that, there are many dog trainers (like Victoria) who highly disapprove of them: they are convinced that shock collars do more harm than good and that makes perfect sense to me. I would never train my pets by sending them a stimulus that makes them feel very uncomfortable.
@Kzinix That's good because you don't have any use for a "soldier" dog, wouldn't know how to teach him to be a soldier and would have considerable difficulty trying to adapt a dog suited to soldiering to the life of a kept dog. I admire your heart for animals, but you're wrong to apply broad strokes to shock collars and if you were to put in the time to learn about the training that goes into their implementation I think you would see the error of your beliefs.
@GriffGruff78 Then we'll have to agree to disagree. My opinion may be wrong in your eyes - but I strongly believe that there are more rewarding and more motivating ways of training animals. I don't see any errors in my desire to work with animals in a positive and stimulating way to build up a mutual bond of trust. But if you insist, I'd like to hear what makes you believe that the use of shock collars is okay and effective.
@Kzinix I don't see any errors in your desire to work with animals in a positive and stimulating way either, but the apparent assumption that a mutual bond of trust can not co-exist with punishment or aversives is erroneous. The preponderance of training involving the use of shock collars is still very much the same as your idea of ideal dog training and the foundation for everything is the bond between dog and handler. The difference is the introduction of negative reinforcement, punishment...
@Kzinix (pt. 2)...and withdrawal to "proof" desireable behaviors against undesireable. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask dogs to learn under conditions that can be stressful as long as the trust remains intact and I don't think it is impossible to tailor your training to the resiliency and toughness of the individual dog. There is not a one-size-fits-all answer to the question of how to train dogs and I'm merely expressing that labeling a tool that you don't understand is wrong-headed.
@GriffGruff78 It's one thing to say that I shouldn't speak about shock collars because I know less about training with them than you do - but there are way more experienced people than me who still seem to share my opinion, however. I'm convinced that the introduction of this kind of negative reinforcement makes the animal more fearful than motivated. It doesn't really have a choice, I would blindly obey you too if you were to shock me otherwise.
@GriffGruff78 Emily Larlham is an experienced dog trainer who only works with encouragement of good behaviour, she distracts dogs when they display undesirable behaviour. She never punishes them, yet the dogs' good behaviour is proofed. Her dog can chase birds in the park, but it immediately responds when she calls it back. You don't need to shock your pets, not even mildly, to proof behaviour. If you doubt this, feel free to visit Emily's channel. Her name on youtube is 'kikopup'.
@GriffGruff78 You say that I don't understand, but the truth is that I don't care how it is used: I really don't like the idea of sending shocks to an animal, not even when the shocks are mild. I think the issue here is not that I don't have enough knowledge about shock collars, but that you don't seem to agree with people who think badly of them. There are way more experienced people than me who won't use shock collars either, so I don't think you should depict me as ignorant.
@GriffGruff78 Nevertheless I appreciate how patient you are about my opinion. Many people on youtube just start calling each other names when they don't agree with each other.
@Kzinix I feel compelled to point out that you're essentially saying "I don't know anything about shock-collars and I don't care how they're used, it's not right because Victoria Stillwell and others whom I assume to be knowledgeable do not support their use and, furthermore, GriffGruff's problem is not that I'm speaking authoritatively on a subject that I am openly unsophisticated about but rather that I don't agree with him." Is that a fair assessment?
@GriffGruff78 No, it isn't. What I mean to say is that maybe, just maybe, it is you who doesn't see the errors of his own belief. I probably don't know as much about shock collars as you do, but isn't it a fair statement to say that shock collars make animals feel uncomfortable? I don't want to train my pets that way, not with a negative physical stimulus. And it's true that I trust experienced people (like Victoria) in their judgements, but does that mean that I am 100 % wrong?
@Kzinix In this instance I would say "yes". I do not believe that Victoria Stillwell has the first clue about electronic training media and there are far, far too many instances of living proof that she's wrong about the pitfalls of training with electronic media for me to give her opinion much credence. It's certainly your right to keep your eyes closed, but I'm very comfortable that you're 100% wrong.
@GriffGruff78 I already felt bad about shock collars before I heard Victoria's explanation about the cons. I have read about these collars and the concept didn't appeal to me at all. The discovery that many acknowledged dog trainers felt the same way, was an indication to me that my instinct was right. I hope you consider my point of view too, because I have the feeling that you mainly have eyes for the results of an e-collar and less for the moral aspect of the matter.
@Kzinix Please understand that I'm not saying that e-collar training is suitable for every dog in every mode of training (nor that every human is capable of executing the training properly), I'm saying that the assumption that dogs are necessarily harmed by training that includes any sort of psychologically significant consequence (including the e-collar) is fallacious.
@GriffGruff78 No, maybe they aren't necessarily psychologically damaged by these collars. I can agree with that - but surely it mustn't be a very pleasant experience either. I would feel bad about forcing my pet into an unpleasant situation.
inche gente guevona que en vez de dedicarle tiempo al perro para que cague en su lugar, nomás le da descargas eléctricas sin indicarle nada... lo único que conseguirán será que no cague y le dé al pobre perro una peritonitis aguda..!! inche vieja fofa...!!
E-collars can be very good training tools if used correctly. It really depends exactly how and when you use it. You don't shock the dog. The best way to use them is at the very lowest level that the dog can feel them and to incorporate positive reinforcement with the collar. Google "Lou Castle", the guy will tell you everything you need to know about e-collars - how to use them, which ones to use, and what not to do.
On a puppy, no. You don't need shock collars to train dogs, to correct bad behavior, sometimes. Shock collars do not hurt i've tried it on myself but that doesn't mean its okay to use it on a puppy, or any dog at all that isn't an extreme case.
THaNK yoU good lord God!! Thank you that somebody around here realizes the terribleness of shock collars. Victoria actually made one lady that was using a shock collar touch it and the lady was like "OW it feels like needles" so please don't shock your dogs :)
@josski32 I actually agree that you shouldn't ask your dog to submit to corporal punishment that you wouldn't be willing to endure yourself and if you haven't tried one on your own neck then I don't think you've established your ability to effectively lead a dog that you expect to perform like a soldier. Other than that, broadly trashing shock collars as cruel and unusual is tantamount to diarrhea of the mouth. Garbage.
@josski32 YOU ARE NUTS AND SO IS VICTORIA. These are TRAINING COLLARS. They are humane and the BEST way to train a dog! YOu know nothing about them and are reacting to the "shock", which it is not. Get your facts straight before posting crap like this.
@MrChaunceygirl So the best way to train a dog is to make it feel uncomfortable when it doesn't do what you want it to do or when it doesn't fully understand what it is supposed to do? Sorry, but that doesn't sound like the most humane method at all. If you think the use of e-collars is misunderstood, can you please explain what's so humane about it? And if it doesn't send shocks, what does it really do?
I don't agree with the use of either, but I believe that a citronella collar on low is more inhumane than a shock collar on low. The shock is quick. The citronella will irritate the nose for a while.
This woman is NOT a dog trainer. She has never owned a dog of her own. Maybe if she used the time she spends regurgitating her lunch to attend a real dog training school, she'd be better offf.
@srsnakes she owns two dogs...she has studied with the world's most renowned dog trainers...she is certified by the Animal Behavior and Training Associates and is a long-time member of the Association of Pet Dog Trainers
that woman needs to shut up, noding and saying yea i agree its terrible to use the collars, SHE ALLOWED THE TRAINERS TO USE THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE! if said no i dont agree with the shock collars those trainers would have found another way.
I got a 4 year old rescue dog that was extremely aggresive to other dogs and it nearly killed a small terrier and would attack any dog without a thought. Someone lent me an electric collar and in one session it cured the dog, instantly. Before that I was considering having the rescue dog put to sleep. Now 2yrs on, he is a fantastic character, sociable and friendly and never shows aggression. For me the electric collar saved that dogs life..
Yeah it can be very cruel when used unnecessarily(like to train sit and lie down) but when the dog will be put down because people are being hurt then it obviously can help! Would you rather be killed or have a couple of little pricks?
@agilityIzzy well, have you ever felt a shock collar before? its not a couple little pricks. it really is painful and destroys the bond between owner and dog. even in the most extreme, a spray collar would be much more humane. positive reinforcement has been proven that it works the best.
Yes I have felt one I expect you haven't if you think they ar ethat painful Yes they can be extremely cruel but when it is saving a dog from being killed then it's okay provided its not on a high setting!
Look I always use positive reinforcement I have never used an electric shock collar or a spray collar in my life! But I would rather not have dogs put down because of a bit of aggression. They are not always needed for aggression I know pits which have been secretly kept to stop police and RSPCA putting them down!
they have been cured without shock collars! Other pits have been cured with shock collars! I would rather have a shock collar on full than be destroyed! You would obviously rather die than have a little pain!!!
@agilityIzzy positive reinforcement is much better and does fix really bad dogs. of course if any one zapped electric bolts through you you'd listen and be obedient too but its a ticking time bomb.
I am never saying " your dog is out of control put an e-collar on him" it is entirely the owners choice but if their dog is at all fearful then it is a huge mistake to put a shock collar on him! all i am saying is if it is your dogs life at stake and they are aggressive (but not fear base aggression) in some circumstances it is okay!!!
@CrazyForPianosGirl If a e-collar is being used to cause pain, it is being used the wrong way. Positive reinforcement doesn't work for every dog. You need to stop believing those bullsh;t anti e-collar studys.
@CrazyForPianosGirl That's the problem with people. They're so many people out there that allow themselves to be spoon fed this bull. The studies you speak of are studies that these "Professionals" already knew the result before they even did them. Every anti e-collar study I have ever read only tests very high levels of stim. The studies are totaly bias. Since you believe every person that says he/she is a pro or scientist, read the study done by "University of Veterinary Medicine Hanover"
@CrazyForPianosGirl It's a study that shows how the e-collar is less stressful then a quitting signal. Stop letting others make up your mind for you. Try thinking for yourself. There is this video here on youtube by Robin Macfarlene it's called "How to use a remote collar for fearful dogs: Marley's story". Watch the video and then tell me what you think. Anti e-collar people think the tool is cruel, this shows otherwise.
@CrazyForPianosGirl In the video it actually helps Marley with his fear issues. E-collar training has come a long way, just like marker training. A good e-collar trainer uses low levels of stim. The level I use on my dog is 10 levels lower then when I barely notice it. The level is only suppose to be to were the dog just notices it. A working level for one dog may not be the same as another dogs. All dogs are different
@andysepul1 Watched the video, seen the dog express several signs of stress... And they haven't even actually shown the process of the dog becoming friendly. You may have found the e-collar useful but there are still many others who use it to harm their dogs because they think it's 'most effective.' That's probably why people are so against it. And there still are much better and fun ways for dogs then an e-collar, it may just take a big more patience.
@ChurtleSnap of course the dog showed signs of stress. It's a very fearfull dog, and he's around people he doesn't know. What dog wouldn't stress? I've seen dogs show more stress with +R. You said you were able to identify signs of stress, but you're not able to see the major improvement of the dog on the video? I don't believe it. I agree that there are idiots out there that misuse the tool. I don't like the fact that anyone can just walk to a pet store and buy one.
@ChurtleSnap 99% of the training I do is with marker training. I'm no against +R, but I'm also not against the use of tools like the e-collar. I don't think every dog can be trained with just +R. There's so many dogs that get put down just because a purely positive trainer believes a dog is better off dead then to use other methods of training. All just because they don't understand it. To think one way is better then the is just your opinion
@ChurtleSnap I haven't used the e-collar or prong collar to train my dog in a while, but he still runs up to me happy as hell when I grab it. Whether if it's just clicker training or training with a e-coll my dog still has fun just the same.
@andysepul1 Another thing I dislike about e-collars/prong collars is when they use it for 'punishing' bad behavior. They say it works but they still have to keep using it to correct the same behavior, that would obviously show it's not working. Positive reinforcement training can teach a dog to stop an unwanted behavior completely without them physically feeling anything. Putting a dog down depends on if they dog is neurologically damaged, if that's the case shocking it won't help.
@ChurtleSnap Seems like you know nothing about using e-collars/prong collars. You can wean a dog off a e-collar/prong collar just like you can wean a dog off of treats. They say? That's the problem you're one of the people that believe everything these anit-everything people say. The majority of these so called pros have no idea on how to properlyuse these tool. All they have is an opinion. The anti's will tell you anything to make you believe they BS propaganda.
@ChurtleSnap No, there are a lot of healthy dogs out there being put down because some PP trainers are against other methods, and will recommend the dog be put down. All because they failed as a trainer. I've seen it many times.
@andysepul1 Honestly, I hardly see 'positive trainers' around. Most of the ones I've seen around seem to use the 'dominance theory' or claim that they are positive but insist about using punishment. Rarely are there trainers like Victoria and Emily (kikopup) in the world. Dog training has been going down the shit hole for so long and I fear sometimes that the damage is too deep much to fix. If e-collars are used without the intention to harm the dog (which is rare)
@ChurtleSnap Well I'm from Chicago, and I would say that there is no shortage of PP trainers, they're everywhere over here. I would hope there's not to many trainers like Victoria, she's as good as your average dog owner. I actually like Emily(kikopup) she is very talented in what she does, but I don't agree what she believes that anyone who uses prongs or e-collars also uses physical or psychological intimidation. She's like all the other crazy PP trainer that are easily spoon fed this crap.
@ChurtleSnap I don't believe in alpha rolling or screaming at a dog. The levels of corrections are not were the dog is scared. Every dog is different. You would be surpriced on how gentle my training is. So Emily is wrong that people that use these tools are also using physical or psychological intimidation. I seen a comment she left on some ladys video that uses a lot of clicker training, but also used a prong collar to train her dog. Emily didn't know the lady used a prong collar, but she -->
@andysepul1 I would feel a bit more comfortable about it. But about 99% of the time it isn't used for the good of the dog but to punish them, which results to an aggressive reaction. Even Cesar Millan has used it in one of his episodes in a way that harmed the dog and people eat that up thinking it's the right way to train a dog. What are we arguing about again? But I'll just say nobody can force a person to put down a dog, it is up to the owners. If the owners were dumb enough
@ChurtleSnap I don't think the tool should be banned, but I believe people should be educated on the tool before they are allowed to buy it because these tools can save a lot of dogs lives. Cesar is garbage. He has no idea on how to use a e-collar. I know a lot of trainers that use e-collar also agree that he was a fucking moron for using that e-collar the way he did on that GSD, but you have to admit he has saved a lot of dogs lives that couldn't be rehabilitated with +R.
@andysepul1 I don't understand the persistent myth that positive training cannot save dogs. Of course it can - once you truly understand the science, you will get that. Good presenter, if you ever have the time, money, or inclination, is Kathy Sdao.
@sequoyahbean I don't think I ever said that positive training couldn't rehabilitate a dog. If I did I apologize because that's not what I ment to say. I myself have used positive methods to rehabilitate dog, and it works very well for some dogs. I just don't think it works for every dog.
@sequoyahbean I don't think I ever said that positive training couldn't rehabilitate a dog. If I did I apologize because that's not what I ment to say. I myself have used positive methods to rehabilitate dog, and it works very well for some dogs. I just don't think it works for every dog.
@ChurtleSnap We're are not arguing, we're just having a discussion ;-). I have a lot of friends that train with just +R. I've got shit from them before, but i shut them up pretty quick when i let them feel the level of stim I use on my dog with a e-collar because they couldn't even feel it, and my dog is very happy. Pet owners usually believe what a dog trainer recommends for then to do with their dog. That's why these dogs are put down. You cant really blame them because they know no better
@andysepul1 to go ahead and put down their dog because of their dog trainer or vet, then it makes me wonder why they bothered to get a dog in the first place. Now sometimes there are situations that I can understand that would put someone in a position to put down the dog, but I believe it should only be when the dog has been neurologically damaged to the point that their own existence causes them misery.
@ChurtleSnap commented to the lady about how well her training was and how good it is to see a Belgian Malinois being training in +R. She didn't know the dog has been trained with a prong collar, and she obviously didn't notice any damage done to the dog because there was none. The dog was super happy. I can also prove her wrong with my dog. He gets really happy when he sees a prong collar and a e-collar. She only deals with a certain level of dog. Never a serious dog with a shitty attitude.
@andysepul1 I have yet to see a dog whose behavior cannot be modified by the appropriate application of the scientific principles of operant conditioning. If you want to train a dog not to chase squirrels, instead of trying to ask him not to chase squirrels in order to get a food reward, you might set things up so that he gets to chase a squirrel IF he will give you a nice 30 second down/stay. It's called Premack, and it works;-))
@sequoyahbean Do you believe just because people say something is proven by science that it's actually true? Science Diet says they're the best dog food out because it's proven by scients, but they use ethoxyquin in their prescription diet foods.
@sequoyahbean I have seen many dogs being put down because the only training they got was PP. Maybe it's because I live in chicago or something because I hear that a lot on here. Maybe because chicago is a very dog friendly city, and there's a lot more dog's out here. I've met some really nasty dogs that have been written off by PP trainers.
@sequoyahbean Operant conditioning is the foundation of any "force" training regimen as well; the difference is that the introduction of a negative association proofs the desirable behavior against undesirable. You can't "proof" anything with the methods you're describing. I don't specifically disagree with Overall's opinions, but only within the scope of her open letter. If you try to apply that broadly then her opinion falls apart. There is simply too much experience and...
@sequoyahbean (pt 2) ...non-layperson anecdotal evidence for her allegations to be correct. The dog that you are training will let you know what he or she thinks is fair much more efficiently than an emotional opinion inked by a veterinarian who has never met you or the dog your are training and has never set foot on your training or performance grounds. Force training involving the e-collar is not inherently damaging to a dog's body or psyche; this is irrefutable.
@ChurtleSnap "You may have found the e-collar useful but there are still many others who use it to harm their dogs" .... Yes, and there are people who overfeed their dogs to the point of obesity. Does that mean the use of dog food is wrong?
I got a 4 year old rescue dog that was extremely aggresive to other dogs and it nearly killed a small terrier and would attack any dog without a thought. Someone lent me an electric collar and in one session it cured the dog, instantly. Before that I was considering having the rescue dog put to sleep. Now 2yrs on, he is a fantastic character, sociable and friendly and never shows aggression. For me the electric collar saved that dogs life..
What's up with people saying electric collars are okay in any case? They're not. Dogs look for love but leadership at the same time... not being shocked and be in pain and grow fear in a dog... say what you want people, but shock collars are another fucking excuse of lazy people not wanting to invest time and have a great companion for another 13-17 or more years! I agree with Victoria on this one.
@SantaValium What's up with people still thinking that you have to cause pain to train with a e-collar? I want you to look up this video here on youtube " How to use a remote collar for fearful dogs: Marley's story," the trainer is Robin Macfarlane. You say that a e-collar will only cause fear, but in this case the e-collar did the total opposite. The e-collar saved this dogs live. The level of stim used on a dog is not suppose to hurt. the dog is just barely suppose to feels it.
@SantaValium I train using marker training, so im not against positive methods. I just think the e-collar is a very important tool if used the right way. E-collars and e-collar training has come a long way since the 50's and 60's. Back then they only used high levels of stim, mostly because the e-collars back then only had high levels of stim. I use a dogtra, and the level were i barely feel it is 10 levels higher then the level my dog feels it. It only feels like a light tap.
@andysepul1 I see, I will take a look at the video now. Just a lot of times I see dogs jerking in pain and fear, and I don't think its something that should be allowed, unless, like you mentioned, it is used in a harmless manner and not abusive. However there are other ways how to train and rehabilitate dogs... right? I personally would never use a shock collar, but if its the only thing that can be used to save a dog, fine. Thank you for your opinion, I agree with you, but disagree with abuse!
Anyone have ideas on how to keep two doberman puppies from going after our chickens? The chickens have been roaming the acreage for years. We've since had some break-ins so we got dogs. They are very smart and obey every command except the chickens!! Now we have a family fight, shock collars seem like the only answer..??
@berbower E-collars are not abusive at all, if used the right way. If a person is causing pain when using the e-collar, they're using it wrong. Lou Castle has a very detailed protocol called " Crittering" It can help with your situation and with dog aggression. Make sure you also look up how to properly find your dogs working level. I would only use a Dogtra or Tri-tronics collars. To me all other e-collars are garbage.
My dog barks constantly when he wants in or out of the house even in the middle of the night. Other tactics WILL NOT work and my dad is fed up with it. I use to think this women was a trainer with common sense but she's just another tree hugging bitch who probably never EXPERIENCED living with a dog barking in the middle of the night Daily. Just another Like mr82 says actress with a british accent and traning in dogs she will probably never own herself.
@CpsLock3 hey u assfuck your dog barks cuz its stupid like u maybe if u train it it will stop shit head hurting it wont do anything you punk ass bitch
@CpsLock3 your comment is stupid its not funny even though u are trying to be its youtube u don't have to spell shit right or type right so who gives a fuck your not a good dog owner so just sell your animal
Shock collars are bullies like Cesar Millan. They give the dogs pain and fright to get them to listen. Whatever happened to training???? The people who made the shock collars are bullies.
I wish anti e-collar folk actually put as much effort into learning about how e-collars work and are used as they did bashing them. It's funny, I have a video of my dog doing some obedience, i made no mention of the method or tools used, and someone posted a comment about how he wishes more people trained like me instead of resorting to prongs or remote collars. I USE BOTH PRONGS & E-COLLARS. Just shows you how ill-informed people are, they expect dogs trained with such tools must be fearful
@shatteringglass There's too many bleeding hearts. You can't treat a dog like a human child. Yes, you should love them like one, but every animal needs discipline in their life. Mother dogs use their teeth to punish their pups, are they going to call that mother dog abusive? Your dog sticks his nose curiously into a hot cup of tea and learns that hot=pain, is that cup of tea psychologically damaging and abusive, too? If you train your dog with love AND discipline, they will respect you fully.
Shock collars are too extreme and over the top. They are also ineffective. The shock disorients the dog so if you want them to stop doing a behavior your wasting your time, money and severely damaging the trust your dog has for you. This will also create intense fear. Unless you'd be willing to test it out on your self I wouldn't recommend using any type training tool or gadget.
@ProphetGuardian This is all true, if you use the e-collar the wrong way.
You have no idea on how to use the e-collar.
I've tried it on myself and on my 10 year old niece.
Type in "How to use a remote collar for fearful dogs: Marley's story" It's a video of Robin Macfarlane using a e-collar on a fearfull dog. Then tell me if e-collars are ineffective, disorients the dog, damages trust with a dog or creates fear. In this case she used it to fix a fearfull dog.
@andysepul1 What the fuck, are you serious ? Are you saying that there is a right way to use an electric collar on your dog that wouldn't cause pain ? isn't that the whole point of using an electric collar instead of a standard collar ? Isn't an e-collar used for a more extreme measures i.e. pain, in order to get your dog to listen ? I'm sorry If I took my dog to a trainer and they used an e- collar on my dog, I'd beat the ever living SHIT out of the trainer .
@MulattaPride Yes im fucking serious. Would you punch someone in the face or tap them in the shoulder to get there attention? I understand that most people were raised to fear electricity. Whether you were shocked as a little kid, seen people die on tv or your parents put the fear in you to keep you from playing with anything that can shock you. Maybe if you read on how to properly find a dogs working level you would understand. Not all dogs use the same level. ---->
@TYspecials Comparing babies and dogs seems to be a common way to attack the implementation of electronic collars, but this argument defeats itself since dogs are not babies, they are not little people and it is not healthy for you or for the dog to personfiy them.
@GriffGruff78 but A dog should be part of the family. You wouldnt do that to any other part of the family. Dogs can be trained without a shock collor.
@TYspecials Here's the thing... For most people, I think that the e-collar is inappropriate. If you need your dog to sit on command, behave in the home and behave on the leash like most people - you're absolutely right that the collar is completely unneccessary and I would take a dim view of someone who thought they needed to put their dog through collar conditioning for that. You're also correct that a dog is a part of the family, but the rest of the family is HUMAN. You wouldn't treat any...
@TYspecials (pt 2) ...human like a dog or vice-versa. The fact that I love my dog means that I put a lot of time, effort and money into his exercise, training, diet, health care and general well-being; it does not mean that I treat him like my son - because he's not. He's my dog. Don't lose sight of that - it isn't good for the dog.
@HiwiKiwi So you know... Treating a dog like a dog doesn't mean that you don't treat him as well as you treat other members of your family. I don't think that dogs are second class or deserve second class treatment, just that they are not human and should not be treated like humans.
@andysepul1 ( Continued ) Your dog should be obedient to you out of respect loyalty to you as pack leader, you don't gain respect out of freaking fear that's a good way to make your dog snap and turn on you. when respect comes out of fear then it's not really respect for you that's making them obey it's basically just emotional Blackmail that's making your dog obey .
@andysepul1 ( Continued ) If your dog sincerely respects you they will have loyalty, confidence & trust in you. If your dog is afraid of you they are only dealing and putting up with you out of terror, there will be a time when your dog stops fearing you once they've had enough .
@ProphetGuardian I'm not sure I've ever seen someone with such a hopelessly ignorant opinion speak so authoritatively before. Sorry, but you have no clue what you're talking about whatsoever.
@GriffGruff78 I do have a clue. Electricity is nothing to play with. It causes burns and muscle damage. The dog will become disoriented and will often lung at anyone standing near by. I've seen this happen. There is no reason to electrocute a dog. Also if your using it on very low settings or vibration mode then what is the purpose for the electricity. Why not just use a collar the vibrates with high and low settings which would be more humane and effective.
@ProphetGuardian I maintain that you do not have a clue. If I hold the terminals of a shock collar against my skin and continuously "electrocute" myself until the battery has been depleted, I will not have absorbed enough energy to cause a burn or damage muscle - there is simply not enough current delivered to create an injury. If you see "burns" on a dog's neck, it's because the owner has not fastened the collar tightly enough and the terminals have caused a mechanical abrasion - not a burn...
@ProphetGuardian (pt 2) ...caused by electrocution. If you've seen a dog become disoriented and lunge at anyone standing nearby when stimulated, that is because you don't have a clue about what you're doing. Collar conditioning is a process and you would be a miserable fool to place an e-collar on a dog's neck, begin administering shocks and expect any acceptable result. If you had a clue you would understand that introduction to the collar requires months of careful training before the dog...
@ProphetGuardian (pt 3) ...ever receives a shock and only after the dog understands exactly what it is supposed to do, understands that there are consequences for dereliction and understands that the stim is coming from the handler, not "anyone standing nearby". If you had a clue you would know that fair and humane use of the e-collar is possible and that it is a very effective tool. Sorry you saw a dog abused with an e-collar; if you had a clue you could have prevented it.
@akatariq And I never said you should use the collars on your dogs. Nobody's going to touch your precious little fur-humans. If you can train a dog efficiently without the collars, then great, do it that way. My problem with your opinion is that you are bashing methods you have little knowledge about. Why call us stupid when you have never witnessed us train? You come here to insult and do what Victoria did, spurt biased nonsense. You could keep it to yourself and not cause problems.
@akatariq You really are being ignorant. You are defensive, if you really want to make this argument fall into your favor, use real evidence and not biased opinions that are your own personal beliefs and not necessarily the truth. Trainers that use prong or ecollars properly are in no way abusing the dog. In fact, those collars have saved many dogs' lives. If you think that's abuse, then brushing my collies must be abuse too since they cry much louder when we get a mat than when we use the prong
@akatariq There is a video that Robin Macfarlane has on youtube. It's of her using a e-collar to rehabilitate a very fearfull border collie. Look at the video and tell me if that's abuse. if you think that's abuse then your on crack. Not everything can be done with purely positive.
@akatariq cuz you know there is no study. you are close minded.
Do you think a tap on the shoulder is abuse. Because thats about all the dog feels when it gets a stim. You need to stop trying to talk about shit you know nothing about. Do you think with the technology today people are able to use electricity to not cause pain? Maybe like a estim from a TENS unit that does the total opposite and relieves pain
@akatariq When did i say that training was the same today as it was 40 years ago? So you go around just calling everybody stupid because they don't agree with you? Looks like you never had any kind of home training. You're as bad as those PITA folks. Why work harder not smarter?
I have used a e-collar before and i know how to use one properly. I use marker training to train my dogs. It's so hard talking to people like you. you're so close minded
@akatariq How did the study messure the dogs stress levels?
You don't want to understand. your close minded like every other anit e-collar person. For some reason you guys can't tell the difference between low level and high level stim. You guys talk about thing you know nothing about. I can tell you have little or no knowledge of the e-collar.
If you think a stim from a e-collar is abuse then im sure you also think letting your dog run around in the snow is also abuse.
@akatariq who says that one way of training is better then the other? It's a e-collar or remote collar not a shock collar. Anti e-collar folks just use that word to make is seem scary. The stim on a e-collar is just like a stim from tens unit that people use to relieve pain. Most anti e-collar studies i have read are just opinion. The are dishonest and biased.
I tried looking for your study and the only one i found was one done on the stress of dogs in the veterinarian waiting room.
@akatariq You train how you like to train, and I'll do my thing. My collie was the number one trained collie in obedience in the US for two years, and I know that this discussion is based on basic training, but he is just an example of what a knowledgeable trainer can accomplish when punishment and reward are used correctly, and that collie was one of the happiest and most loving dogs I had ever known. I see the same attitude and drive in the collie we have now, and I know he'll go as far.
different. Punishment exists in every country, and there is just as much fully positive-based training in the states as there is in Sweden. But what I rely on is common sense and communication with my dogs. If you just live with your dog and do not enforce that you are in control, you will wind up with a lot of issues if you happened to have a dog like that shepherd. Plus, the owners were a hotel business with tourists constantly coming into the building with the dog. Liability much?
@akatariq Dog training has not moved forward any more in the past 40 years than it has in the hundreds of years that we have been training dogs. If you were present when this shepherd's training was taking place, you would have been aware of the dog's "leadership" in the home. If you truly understand canine language that is. You have to put effort into training, but why switch your methods when they work and your dogs are as happy as any other? And don't give me bullshit that Sweden is any
that we should treat our dogs like people and it stems from the same source of pity and emotion that allows dogs to sleep on the bed and climb on our shoulders thinking they're giving us a "hug". They do not think like us, they feel pain but physical corrections are NATURAL for canines. And prong collars do not even hurt. They are blunt and bent so that they do not press into the dogs skin painfully. And STUDIES have proven that they cause much less long term damage than a choke or strap collar.
when it is misbehaving, leaving the dog to figure out what is wrong on its own. Of course, eventually it is going to stop performing the behavior but it takes him much longer to understand, and my experience with uneducated owners have proven to me that most of them aren't willing to put that kind of time and effort into the training. If prong collars are so "nasty", why have they worked for many years, and the dogs trained with them are just as "happy" as any other dog? It's the human outlook
worked on a little basic obedience training, and the dog was visibly 150% better. And it took only an hour or two to accomplish this. Prong and ecollars are easily misused, as I have said, and it is that misuse that have earned them a terrible reputation. Yet, these tools have proven to be the quickest and most efficient methods when used by educated trainers. A single pop on the prong gets a point across much faster and is better communication than continuously stopping and leaving your dog
move around or towards the man. This is because they were not firm and the dog took over leadership in the house. The dog was only doing what it felt was right, protecting its pack from intruders. The owners "encouragement" towards the dog to relax was virtually ineffective. We moved in and became very firm on the dog, establishing a dominant role by breaking eye contact between him and strangers, providing a pop on the prong and a loud voice when the dog left his spot and charged them, and
should provide a positive environment for your dog, with a lot of encouragement, praise, treats, and love. But owners always take this too far, and recently I've seen it in a GSD we trained. The owners believed that a dog should never receive punishment, and therefore they would not raise their voice or put a prong collar on the dog. We let them show us their methods of handling the dog when a man came into the house, and the dog became very stressed, tried to bite, and wouldn't let the owners
@akatariq Any dog can be trained without aversive stimuli, but through my experience, experience of many other trainers, and my mother's 40+ years of professional dog training, relying on reward and negative punishment breaks down over time, is much more difficult for owners to keep up with and it simply doesn't always work. Positive punishment is something naturally occurring. Dogs aren't humans, and imposing our morals that they're little humans into their training is ridiculous. Yes, you
@akatariq Lol I'm not very educated in this area? Do you know how long I HAVE been studying canine behavior, wild and domesticated? Since I could pretty much read, plus animal behavior and psychology is what I went to school for. Even when there is a firm leader in a pack, there is always occurrences of nipping, shoving, T-ing, mounting amongst groups of unaltered dogs. I know any harm is minimal and pretty much harmless, but a prong or ecollar is no worse than a dog mouthing the face of another
@akatariq Every anit e-collar study that i ever read was testing high level stims. Training with a e-collar has come a long way just like marker training. There's a huge difference in training with high level and low level of stim. The level of stim i use on my dog is 10 levels lower then the level i found for my 10 year old niece.
Maybe you would understand more if you learned the proper way to find a dogs working level with a e-collar or you can try it on yourself.
@akatariq When using a e-collar as a correction it causes less stress on the dog then withholding the reward. Institute of Animal Welfare and behavior University of Veterinary Medicine Hanover did a study on the 3 forms of corrections prong collars, e-collars and negative punishment (conditioned quitting signal). Dogs that showed a higher learning effect were the dogs that recieved corrections from the e-collar and prong.they were also less stressed
And the prong, to somebody like you, or Victoria Stilwell, would be considered harmful too. Yet, it's the least harmful collar of them all, right up with the e-collar. Would you believe that? Does that mean that, *gasp* the "shock collar" can be used properly and not harm a dog?? You have to be open-minded and not judge a trainer's use of methods and tools when they work, because every good trainer may have different opinions and different levels of progress. If the dog is happy+safe, let it be.
home, simply raising your voice towards your dog does it a certain extent of harm. Owners that use buckle collars on dogs that pull don't realize they're harming the dogs esophagus, and with a dog like mine that is high energy and high drive, the "positive" methods of "stopping until your dog returns to you" never works, or holding him behind your body. Trust me, we've tried all of that. So we have to keep the prong collar on him and give him a pop when he pulls so he won't damage his neck.
@akatariq I can understand the e-collar being banned because of its misuse. But not because it's a harmful training tool. Like I've said, I've seen people use it incorrectly and cause a dog harm. Which is why only professional handlers that understand the collar's purpose should own one. Many trainers suggest to new dog owners to buy one, which I think is very wrong on the trainer's part. In the wild, dogs are always causing each other harm to determine ranking and provide discipline. And at
she doesn't get it at all..she does not even know how an ecollar is properly used.
Perhaps if she understood that and then just simply said I prefer to not use one it could be accepted..but to blab on with incorrect information is really sad and to further say that anyone that uses one is even more sad.
she doesn't get it at all..she does not even know how an ecollar is properly used.
Perhaps if she understood that and then just simply said I prefer to not use one it could be accepted..but to blab on with incorrect information is really sad and to further say that anyone that uses one is even more sad.
I hate shock collars. I will never use one and I can't believe people put them on puppies. My "friend" had a GSD/Husky pup that was kept in a crate 20+ hours a day without any toys and she only took him outside to go to the bathroom. So, when he whined and barked almost all day she decided to put a shock collar on him to get him to stop barking. In the end she gave her puppy to someone else because he "bit her" when he actually just mouthed her hand while playing. She was a horrid owner anyway.
@EverBlueMinty The e-collar didn't make your freind abuse her dog. People can do that without a e-collar. I've never used a e-collar on a pup but i've seen others people use it on a pup and did a very good job. Look up Robin Macfarlane she has videos here on youtube and uses e-collars on pups. She's a very nice lady and will probably answer any question you have on the e-collar. Learn a little more about it before you say you will never use it.
@andysepul1 I never said she abused her puppy. She was just lazy and didn't want to train it so she used a shock collar as an easy fix. I still will never use one though. Especially not on puppies. I use my own method that works well enough for me. Though, if other people want to they can as It's not any of my business. I just don't like it when people use them but nothing I say would stop anyone anyway.
@EverBlueMinty I've felt the e-collar and it's not ment to cause pain or scared the dog the level you find for the dog is just barley to were the dog can feel it. I've put it on myself and it's just like someone tapping you on the shoulder to get your attention. I could have it on all day. I've had friends that hated the e-collar but once they felt the proper way to find a dogs working level they didn't look at the e-collar the same way. It's e-collar not shock collar.
@andysepul1 It may not be meant for that but I still won't use one. I have my own way of training and such that works well enough for me. Like I said in a reply to someone else, Other people can use them as it's their business not mine. I just don't like it...Well hate is a better word but whatever works.
never shock collars! there is no need. If there is any extreme case, you can use a vibration collar, the vibration is even softer than a cellphone on vibration, it does not hurt the dog or makes him feel pain, it is just to redirect his attention. But shock collars?? THese so called trainer should use those collars themselves or put them on their children but on my doggy?? never!!
@phabbiola Seems like you know very little about E-collars. I've used the vibration on dogs and it seems to scared most dogs. Most e-collars do not have a way to control the level of vibration.
If a person uses a e-collar to cause pain he/she is using it wrong. I have tried it on myself and my little niece.
Not all dogs use the same level of stim. You only turn it up to were the dog just barely feels it.
You shouldnt knock the e-collar till you learn a more about it.
@phabbiola The level of stim i use on my dog is 10 levels less then when i feel it and 7 levels less then when my little niece feels it.
If you read the studies againts the e-collar they were all from anti e-collar people. they are bias and all of them used very high levels of stim on the dog just to prove that they are right. Now thats abuse if you ask me.
The e-collar has come a long way just like marker training. They use to use very high levels of stim back in the day
I would put a shock collar on her which activated every time she affected that annoying faux-American accent. In fact, I'd be all for putting a shock collar on her to stop her from talking.
What does she mean she's not mad at the woman? I'm mad at her! She should know that it is wrong to hurt her dog. It keeps surprising me how little research people do before they buy a pet they will have for 10-15 years.
1PigfartsHereICome 1 week ago
my dog is just under a year, recently he manages to jump ontop of our brick fence and jump into the neighbors yard. or outside. consequently i keep him on a 15 foot chain when i am not around. however i still take him out multiple times throughout the day and get him exercise. I have decided i want to get a shock collar and put up a boundary wire around the perimeter of my backyard. i still intend to get him the exercise he loves. what do you guys think?
skantiloak 1 week ago
Soooo mean!! No shock collars plz :/
josski32 2 weeks ago
Victoria Stillwell doesn't know what she's talking about. She displays all the outrage of ignorance.
The "shock collars" don't give an electric shock. They give a little vibrate like a cellphone set to "silent alert" that gets the dog's attention.
They are a very useful tool.
kenja59 3 weeks ago
@kenja59 Actually shock collars can be quite painful: Victoria once let a woman test it and the woman said that it felt like needles.
Kzinix 2 weeks ago
@Kzinix Wait... It seems like you may be making a strong statement in absolute terms based on something you heard from Victoria after she allowed some woman that you've never met and know nothing about said a shock collar felt like needles. Is that about right? In other words, you feel comfortable speaking in absolute terms on a subject that you have ZERO first-hand knowledge about?
GriffGruff78 2 weeks ago
@GriffGruff78 I've read about shock collars and I've seen plenty of people who wanted to test it on themselves. I can assure you that it didn't seem to feel like a pleasant massage around their necks. In addition to that, there are many dog trainers (like Victoria) who highly disapprove of them: they are convinced that shock collars do more harm than good and that makes perfect sense to me. I would never train my pets by sending them a stimulus that makes them feel very uncomfortable.
Kzinix 2 weeks ago
@Kzinix That's good because you don't have any use for a "soldier" dog, wouldn't know how to teach him to be a soldier and would have considerable difficulty trying to adapt a dog suited to soldiering to the life of a kept dog. I admire your heart for animals, but you're wrong to apply broad strokes to shock collars and if you were to put in the time to learn about the training that goes into their implementation I think you would see the error of your beliefs.
GriffGruff78 1 week ago
@GriffGruff78 Then we'll have to agree to disagree. My opinion may be wrong in your eyes - but I strongly believe that there are more rewarding and more motivating ways of training animals. I don't see any errors in my desire to work with animals in a positive and stimulating way to build up a mutual bond of trust. But if you insist, I'd like to hear what makes you believe that the use of shock collars is okay and effective.
Kzinix 1 week ago
@Kzinix I don't see any errors in your desire to work with animals in a positive and stimulating way either, but the apparent assumption that a mutual bond of trust can not co-exist with punishment or aversives is erroneous. The preponderance of training involving the use of shock collars is still very much the same as your idea of ideal dog training and the foundation for everything is the bond between dog and handler. The difference is the introduction of negative reinforcement, punishment...
GriffGruff78 1 week ago
@Kzinix (pt. 2)...and withdrawal to "proof" desireable behaviors against undesireable. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask dogs to learn under conditions that can be stressful as long as the trust remains intact and I don't think it is impossible to tailor your training to the resiliency and toughness of the individual dog. There is not a one-size-fits-all answer to the question of how to train dogs and I'm merely expressing that labeling a tool that you don't understand is wrong-headed.
GriffGruff78 1 week ago
@GriffGruff78 It's one thing to say that I shouldn't speak about shock collars because I know less about training with them than you do - but there are way more experienced people than me who still seem to share my opinion, however. I'm convinced that the introduction of this kind of negative reinforcement makes the animal more fearful than motivated. It doesn't really have a choice, I would blindly obey you too if you were to shock me otherwise.
Kzinix 1 week ago
@GriffGruff78 Emily Larlham is an experienced dog trainer who only works with encouragement of good behaviour, she distracts dogs when they display undesirable behaviour. She never punishes them, yet the dogs' good behaviour is proofed. Her dog can chase birds in the park, but it immediately responds when she calls it back. You don't need to shock your pets, not even mildly, to proof behaviour. If you doubt this, feel free to visit Emily's channel. Her name on youtube is 'kikopup'.
Kzinix 1 week ago
@GriffGruff78 You say that I don't understand, but the truth is that I don't care how it is used: I really don't like the idea of sending shocks to an animal, not even when the shocks are mild. I think the issue here is not that I don't have enough knowledge about shock collars, but that you don't seem to agree with people who think badly of them. There are way more experienced people than me who won't use shock collars either, so I don't think you should depict me as ignorant.
Kzinix 1 week ago
@GriffGruff78 Nevertheless I appreciate how patient you are about my opinion. Many people on youtube just start calling each other names when they don't agree with each other.
Kzinix 1 week ago
@Kzinix I feel compelled to point out that you're essentially saying "I don't know anything about shock-collars and I don't care how they're used, it's not right because Victoria Stillwell and others whom I assume to be knowledgeable do not support their use and, furthermore, GriffGruff's problem is not that I'm speaking authoritatively on a subject that I am openly unsophisticated about but rather that I don't agree with him." Is that a fair assessment?
GriffGruff78 1 week ago
@GriffGruff78 No, it isn't. What I mean to say is that maybe, just maybe, it is you who doesn't see the errors of his own belief. I probably don't know as much about shock collars as you do, but isn't it a fair statement to say that shock collars make animals feel uncomfortable? I don't want to train my pets that way, not with a negative physical stimulus. And it's true that I trust experienced people (like Victoria) in their judgements, but does that mean that I am 100 % wrong?
Kzinix 1 week ago
@Kzinix In this instance I would say "yes". I do not believe that Victoria Stillwell has the first clue about electronic training media and there are far, far too many instances of living proof that she's wrong about the pitfalls of training with electronic media for me to give her opinion much credence. It's certainly your right to keep your eyes closed, but I'm very comfortable that you're 100% wrong.
GriffGruff78 1 week ago 2
@GriffGruff78 I already felt bad about shock collars before I heard Victoria's explanation about the cons. I have read about these collars and the concept didn't appeal to me at all. The discovery that many acknowledged dog trainers felt the same way, was an indication to me that my instinct was right. I hope you consider my point of view too, because I have the feeling that you mainly have eyes for the results of an e-collar and less for the moral aspect of the matter.
Kzinix 1 week ago
@Kzinix Please understand that I'm not saying that e-collar training is suitable for every dog in every mode of training (nor that every human is capable of executing the training properly), I'm saying that the assumption that dogs are necessarily harmed by training that includes any sort of psychologically significant consequence (including the e-collar) is fallacious.
GriffGruff78 1 week ago 8
@GriffGruff78 No, maybe they aren't necessarily psychologically damaged by these collars. I can agree with that - but surely it mustn't be a very pleasant experience either. I would feel bad about forcing my pet into an unpleasant situation.
Kzinix 1 week ago
inche gente guevona que en vez de dedicarle tiempo al perro para que cague en su lugar, nomás le da descargas eléctricas sin indicarle nada... lo único que conseguirán será que no cague y le dé al pobre perro una peritonitis aguda..!! inche vieja fofa...!!
amatistart 3 weeks ago
E-collars can be very good training tools if used correctly. It really depends exactly how and when you use it. You don't shock the dog. The best way to use them is at the very lowest level that the dog can feel them and to incorporate positive reinforcement with the collar. Google "Lou Castle", the guy will tell you everything you need to know about e-collars - how to use them, which ones to use, and what not to do.
pmezo 3 weeks ago
This Time I Have To Agree With Victoria
briansimpkins87 1 month ago
On a puppy, no. You don't need shock collars to train dogs, to correct bad behavior, sometimes. Shock collars do not hurt i've tried it on myself but that doesn't mean its okay to use it on a puppy, or any dog at all that isn't an extreme case.
LegendDemon01 1 month ago in playlist dogs
THaNK yoU good lord God!! Thank you that somebody around here realizes the terribleness of shock collars. Victoria actually made one lady that was using a shock collar touch it and the lady was like "OW it feels like needles" so please don't shock your dogs :)
josski32 1 month ago
@josski32 I actually agree that you shouldn't ask your dog to submit to corporal punishment that you wouldn't be willing to endure yourself and if you haven't tried one on your own neck then I don't think you've established your ability to effectively lead a dog that you expect to perform like a soldier. Other than that, broadly trashing shock collars as cruel and unusual is tantamount to diarrhea of the mouth. Garbage.
GriffGruff78 1 month ago
@josski32 YOU ARE NUTS AND SO IS VICTORIA. These are TRAINING COLLARS. They are humane and the BEST way to train a dog! YOu know nothing about them and are reacting to the "shock", which it is not. Get your facts straight before posting crap like this.
MrChaunceygirl 1 week ago
@MrChaunceygirl So the best way to train a dog is to make it feel uncomfortable when it doesn't do what you want it to do or when it doesn't fully understand what it is supposed to do? Sorry, but that doesn't sound like the most humane method at all. If you think the use of e-collars is misunderstood, can you please explain what's so humane about it? And if it doesn't send shocks, what does it really do?
Kzinix 6 days ago
I don't agree with the use of either, but I believe that a citronella collar on low is more inhumane than a shock collar on low. The shock is quick. The citronella will irritate the nose for a while.
dontpugme 1 month ago
This woman is NOT a dog trainer. She has never owned a dog of her own. Maybe if she used the time she spends regurgitating her lunch to attend a real dog training school, she'd be better offf.
srsnakes 1 month ago
@srsnakes she owns two dogs...she has studied with the world's most renowned dog trainers...she is certified by the Animal Behavior and Training Associates and is a long-time member of the Association of Pet Dog Trainers
dontpugme 1 month ago
Abuse
nellie2581 1 month ago
A shock collar is to stop unnecessary barking it's not to keep it off your bed or anything. For my dog its for barking and we
Use it when we see him about to get into the trash. In some cases its okay but on a puppy?? You can TRAIN a puppy yourself! And it will learn.
allysmusiccovers 2 months ago
that woman needs to shut up, noding and saying yea i agree its terrible to use the collars, SHE ALLOWED THE TRAINERS TO USE THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE! if said no i dont agree with the shock collars those trainers would have found another way.
georgiabeastx 2 months ago 5
My wife makes me wear a shock collar. I'm also microchipped.
gnortznitz 3 months ago
I wish I could put a shock collar around Victoria's neck. :/
Iaganatzi 3 months ago
I got a 4 year old rescue dog that was extremely aggresive to other dogs and it nearly killed a small terrier and would attack any dog without a thought. Someone lent me an electric collar and in one session it cured the dog, instantly. Before that I was considering having the rescue dog put to sleep. Now 2yrs on, he is a fantastic character, sociable and friendly and never shows aggression. For me the electric collar saved that dogs life..
MrMarks4 4 months ago
@MrMarks4
I think shock collars should only be used if you are in circumstances like this or if the dog is very out of control im glad it worked on your dog :)
agilityIzzy 3 months ago
@agilityIzzy NO! it should never be use! its cruel!
CrazyForPianosGirl 2 months ago
@CrazyForPianosGirl
Yeah it can be very cruel when used unnecessarily(like to train sit and lie down) but when the dog will be put down because people are being hurt then it obviously can help! Would you rather be killed or have a couple of little pricks?
agilityIzzy 2 months ago
@agilityIzzy well, have you ever felt a shock collar before? its not a couple little pricks. it really is painful and destroys the bond between owner and dog. even in the most extreme, a spray collar would be much more humane. positive reinforcement has been proven that it works the best.
CrazyForPianosGirl 2 months ago
@CrazyForPianosGirl
Yes I have felt one I expect you haven't if you think they ar ethat painful Yes they can be extremely cruel but when it is saving a dog from being killed then it's okay provided its not on a high setting!
agilityIzzy 2 months ago
@agilityIzzy obviously you never have heard of positive reinforcement and humanity. they work much better.
CrazyForPianosGirl 2 months ago
@CrazyForPianosGirl
Look I always use positive reinforcement I have never used an electric shock collar or a spray collar in my life! But I would rather not have dogs put down because of a bit of aggression. They are not always needed for aggression I know pits which have been secretly kept to stop police and RSPCA putting them down!
agilityIzzy 2 months ago
they have been cured without shock collars! Other pits have been cured with shock collars! I would rather have a shock collar on full than be destroyed! You would obviously rather die than have a little pain!!!
agilityIzzy 2 months ago
@agilityIzzy positive reinforcement is much better and does fix really bad dogs. of course if any one zapped electric bolts through you you'd listen and be obedient too but its a ticking time bomb.
CrazyForPianosGirl 2 months ago
@CrazyForPianosGirl
I am never saying " your dog is out of control put an e-collar on him" it is entirely the owners choice but if their dog is at all fearful then it is a huge mistake to put a shock collar on him! all i am saying is if it is your dogs life at stake and they are aggressive (but not fear base aggression) in some circumstances it is okay!!!
agilityIzzy 2 months ago
@CrazyForPianosGirl If a e-collar is being used to cause pain, it is being used the wrong way. Positive reinforcement doesn't work for every dog. You need to stop believing those bullsh;t anti e-collar studys.
andysepul1 2 months ago
@andysepul1 studies are done for a reason, done by scientists and professionals, and all prove e collars are bad for dogs. how is that bull shit?
CrazyForPianosGirl 2 months ago
@CrazyForPianosGirl That's the problem with people. They're so many people out there that allow themselves to be spoon fed this bull. The studies you speak of are studies that these "Professionals" already knew the result before they even did them. Every anti e-collar study I have ever read only tests very high levels of stim. The studies are totaly bias. Since you believe every person that says he/she is a pro or scientist, read the study done by "University of Veterinary Medicine Hanover"
andysepul1 2 months ago
@CrazyForPianosGirl It's a study that shows how the e-collar is less stressful then a quitting signal. Stop letting others make up your mind for you. Try thinking for yourself. There is this video here on youtube by Robin Macfarlene it's called "How to use a remote collar for fearful dogs: Marley's story". Watch the video and then tell me what you think. Anti e-collar people think the tool is cruel, this shows otherwise.
andysepul1 2 months ago
@CrazyForPianosGirl In the video it actually helps Marley with his fear issues. E-collar training has come a long way, just like marker training. A good e-collar trainer uses low levels of stim. The level I use on my dog is 10 levels lower then when I barely notice it. The level is only suppose to be to were the dog just notices it. A working level for one dog may not be the same as another dogs. All dogs are different
andysepul1 2 months ago
@andysepul1 Watched the video, seen the dog express several signs of stress... And they haven't even actually shown the process of the dog becoming friendly. You may have found the e-collar useful but there are still many others who use it to harm their dogs because they think it's 'most effective.' That's probably why people are so against it. And there still are much better and fun ways for dogs then an e-collar, it may just take a big more patience.
ChurtleSnap 1 month ago
@ChurtleSnap of course the dog showed signs of stress. It's a very fearfull dog, and he's around people he doesn't know. What dog wouldn't stress? I've seen dogs show more stress with +R. You said you were able to identify signs of stress, but you're not able to see the major improvement of the dog on the video? I don't believe it. I agree that there are idiots out there that misuse the tool. I don't like the fact that anyone can just walk to a pet store and buy one.
andysepul1 1 month ago
@ChurtleSnap 99% of the training I do is with marker training. I'm no against +R, but I'm also not against the use of tools like the e-collar. I don't think every dog can be trained with just +R. There's so many dogs that get put down just because a purely positive trainer believes a dog is better off dead then to use other methods of training. All just because they don't understand it. To think one way is better then the is just your opinion
andysepul1 1 month ago
@ChurtleSnap I haven't used the e-collar or prong collar to train my dog in a while, but he still runs up to me happy as hell when I grab it. Whether if it's just clicker training or training with a e-coll my dog still has fun just the same.
andysepul1 1 month ago
@andysepul1 Another thing I dislike about e-collars/prong collars is when they use it for 'punishing' bad behavior. They say it works but they still have to keep using it to correct the same behavior, that would obviously show it's not working. Positive reinforcement training can teach a dog to stop an unwanted behavior completely without them physically feeling anything. Putting a dog down depends on if they dog is neurologically damaged, if that's the case shocking it won't help.
ChurtleSnap 1 month ago
@ChurtleSnap Seems like you know nothing about using e-collars/prong collars. You can wean a dog off a e-collar/prong collar just like you can wean a dog off of treats. They say? That's the problem you're one of the people that believe everything these anit-everything people say. The majority of these so called pros have no idea on how to properlyuse these tool. All they have is an opinion. The anti's will tell you anything to make you believe they BS propaganda.
andysepul1 1 month ago
@ChurtleSnap No, there are a lot of healthy dogs out there being put down because some PP trainers are against other methods, and will recommend the dog be put down. All because they failed as a trainer. I've seen it many times.
andysepul1 1 month ago
@andysepul1 Honestly, I hardly see 'positive trainers' around. Most of the ones I've seen around seem to use the 'dominance theory' or claim that they are positive but insist about using punishment. Rarely are there trainers like Victoria and Emily (kikopup) in the world. Dog training has been going down the shit hole for so long and I fear sometimes that the damage is too deep much to fix. If e-collars are used without the intention to harm the dog (which is rare)
ChurtleSnap 1 month ago
@ChurtleSnap Well I'm from Chicago, and I would say that there is no shortage of PP trainers, they're everywhere over here. I would hope there's not to many trainers like Victoria, she's as good as your average dog owner. I actually like Emily(kikopup) she is very talented in what she does, but I don't agree what she believes that anyone who uses prongs or e-collars also uses physical or psychological intimidation. She's like all the other crazy PP trainer that are easily spoon fed this crap.
andysepul1 1 month ago
@ChurtleSnap I don't believe in alpha rolling or screaming at a dog. The levels of corrections are not were the dog is scared. Every dog is different. You would be surpriced on how gentle my training is. So Emily is wrong that people that use these tools are also using physical or psychological intimidation. I seen a comment she left on some ladys video that uses a lot of clicker training, but also used a prong collar to train her dog. Emily didn't know the lady used a prong collar, but she -->
andysepul1 1 month ago
@ChurtleSnap Im not against any method. I use a lot of marker training.
andysepul1 1 month ago
@andysepul1 I would feel a bit more comfortable about it. But about 99% of the time it isn't used for the good of the dog but to punish them, which results to an aggressive reaction. Even Cesar Millan has used it in one of his episodes in a way that harmed the dog and people eat that up thinking it's the right way to train a dog. What are we arguing about again? But I'll just say nobody can force a person to put down a dog, it is up to the owners. If the owners were dumb enough
ChurtleSnap 1 month ago
@ChurtleSnap I don't think the tool should be banned, but I believe people should be educated on the tool before they are allowed to buy it because these tools can save a lot of dogs lives. Cesar is garbage. He has no idea on how to use a e-collar. I know a lot of trainers that use e-collar also agree that he was a fucking moron for using that e-collar the way he did on that GSD, but you have to admit he has saved a lot of dogs lives that couldn't be rehabilitated with +R.
andysepul1 1 month ago
@andysepul1 I don't understand the persistent myth that positive training cannot save dogs. Of course it can - once you truly understand the science, you will get that. Good presenter, if you ever have the time, money, or inclination, is Kathy Sdao.
sequoyahbean 1 month ago
@sequoyahbean I don't think I ever said that positive training couldn't rehabilitate a dog. If I did I apologize because that's not what I ment to say. I myself have used positive methods to rehabilitate dog, and it works very well for some dogs. I just don't think it works for every dog.
andysepul1 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@sequoyahbean I don't think I ever said that positive training couldn't rehabilitate a dog. If I did I apologize because that's not what I ment to say. I myself have used positive methods to rehabilitate dog, and it works very well for some dogs. I just don't think it works for every dog.
andysepul1 1 month ago
@ChurtleSnap We're are not arguing, we're just having a discussion ;-). I have a lot of friends that train with just +R. I've got shit from them before, but i shut them up pretty quick when i let them feel the level of stim I use on my dog with a e-collar because they couldn't even feel it, and my dog is very happy. Pet owners usually believe what a dog trainer recommends for then to do with their dog. That's why these dogs are put down. You cant really blame them because they know no better
andysepul1 1 month ago
@andysepul1 to go ahead and put down their dog because of their dog trainer or vet, then it makes me wonder why they bothered to get a dog in the first place. Now sometimes there are situations that I can understand that would put someone in a position to put down the dog, but I believe it should only be when the dog has been neurologically damaged to the point that their own existence causes them misery.
ChurtleSnap 1 month ago
@ChurtleSnap commented to the lady about how well her training was and how good it is to see a Belgian Malinois being training in +R. She didn't know the dog has been trained with a prong collar, and she obviously didn't notice any damage done to the dog because there was none. The dog was super happy. I can also prove her wrong with my dog. He gets really happy when he sees a prong collar and a e-collar. She only deals with a certain level of dog. Never a serious dog with a shitty attitude.
andysepul1 1 month ago
@andysepul1 I have yet to see a dog whose behavior cannot be modified by the appropriate application of the scientific principles of operant conditioning. If you want to train a dog not to chase squirrels, instead of trying to ask him not to chase squirrels in order to get a food reward, you might set things up so that he gets to chase a squirrel IF he will give you a nice 30 second down/stay. It's called Premack, and it works;-))
sequoyahbean 1 month ago
@sequoyahbean Do you believe just because people say something is proven by science that it's actually true? Science Diet says they're the best dog food out because it's proven by scients, but they use ethoxyquin in their prescription diet foods.
andysepul1 1 month ago
@sequoyahbean I have seen many dogs being put down because the only training they got was PP. Maybe it's because I live in chicago or something because I hear that a lot on here. Maybe because chicago is a very dog friendly city, and there's a lot more dog's out here. I've met some really nasty dogs that have been written off by PP trainers.
andysepul1 1 month ago
@sequoyahbean Operant conditioning is the foundation of any "force" training regimen as well; the difference is that the introduction of a negative association proofs the desirable behavior against undesirable. You can't "proof" anything with the methods you're describing. I don't specifically disagree with Overall's opinions, but only within the scope of her open letter. If you try to apply that broadly then her opinion falls apart. There is simply too much experience and...
GriffGruff78 1 month ago
@sequoyahbean (pt 2) ...non-layperson anecdotal evidence for her allegations to be correct. The dog that you are training will let you know what he or she thinks is fair much more efficiently than an emotional opinion inked by a veterinarian who has never met you or the dog your are training and has never set foot on your training or performance grounds. Force training involving the e-collar is not inherently damaging to a dog's body or psyche; this is irrefutable.
GriffGruff78 1 month ago
@ChurtleSnap "You may have found the e-collar useful but there are still many others who use it to harm their dogs" .... Yes, and there are people who overfeed their dogs to the point of obesity. Does that mean the use of dog food is wrong?
kenja59 3 weeks ago
@kenja59 Come on, you can't compare dog food to that.
Kzinix 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I got a 4 year old rescue dog that was extremely aggresive to other dogs and it nearly killed a small terrier and would attack any dog without a thought. Someone lent me an electric collar and in one session it cured the dog, instantly. Before that I was considering having the rescue dog put to sleep. Now 2yrs on, he is a fantastic character, sociable and friendly and never shows aggression. For me the electric collar saved that dogs life..
MrMarks4 4 months ago
It's me or the dog
8888InokiBomBaYe8888 4 months ago
What's up with people saying electric collars are okay in any case? They're not. Dogs look for love but leadership at the same time... not being shocked and be in pain and grow fear in a dog... say what you want people, but shock collars are another fucking excuse of lazy people not wanting to invest time and have a great companion for another 13-17 or more years! I agree with Victoria on this one.
SantaValium 4 months ago 2
@SantaValium What's up with people still thinking that you have to cause pain to train with a e-collar? I want you to look up this video here on youtube " How to use a remote collar for fearful dogs: Marley's story," the trainer is Robin Macfarlane. You say that a e-collar will only cause fear, but in this case the e-collar did the total opposite. The e-collar saved this dogs live. The level of stim used on a dog is not suppose to hurt. the dog is just barely suppose to feels it.
andysepul1 4 months ago
@SantaValium I train using marker training, so im not against positive methods. I just think the e-collar is a very important tool if used the right way. E-collars and e-collar training has come a long way since the 50's and 60's. Back then they only used high levels of stim, mostly because the e-collars back then only had high levels of stim. I use a dogtra, and the level were i barely feel it is 10 levels higher then the level my dog feels it. It only feels like a light tap.
andysepul1 4 months ago
@andysepul1 I see, I will take a look at the video now. Just a lot of times I see dogs jerking in pain and fear, and I don't think its something that should be allowed, unless, like you mentioned, it is used in a harmless manner and not abusive. However there are other ways how to train and rehabilitate dogs... right? I personally would never use a shock collar, but if its the only thing that can be used to save a dog, fine. Thank you for your opinion, I agree with you, but disagree with abuse!
SantaValium 4 months ago
Anyone have ideas on how to keep two doberman puppies from going after our chickens? The chickens have been roaming the acreage for years. We've since had some break-ins so we got dogs. They are very smart and obey every command except the chickens!! Now we have a family fight, shock collars seem like the only answer..??
berbower 5 months ago
@berbower E-collars are not abusive at all, if used the right way. If a person is causing pain when using the e-collar, they're using it wrong. Lou Castle has a very detailed protocol called " Crittering" It can help with your situation and with dog aggression. Make sure you also look up how to properly find your dogs working level. I would only use a Dogtra or Tri-tronics collars. To me all other e-collars are garbage.
andysepul1 4 months ago
using them for general discipline is wrong..but it's so much better they if run into the street.. let's put one on Vic, shall we?
Kodos13 5 months ago
What wrong boy? You scared? No pee! ZAP!! That'll teach you. Now come give me a hug.
lesleyhenriquez 5 months ago
My dog barks constantly when he wants in or out of the house even in the middle of the night. Other tactics WILL NOT work and my dad is fed up with it. I use to think this women was a trainer with common sense but she's just another tree hugging bitch who probably never EXPERIENCED living with a dog barking in the middle of the night Daily. Just another Like mr82 says actress with a british accent and traning in dogs she will probably never own herself.
CpsLock3 5 months ago
@CpsLock3 hey u assfuck your dog barks cuz its stupid like u maybe if u train it it will stop shit head hurting it wont do anything you punk ass bitch
MrBobthecorncob 5 months ago
@MrBobthecorncob Hey you have to capitalize the first word in a sentence and put a period in the second ok now go take a nap.
CpsLock3 5 months ago
@CpsLock3 your comment is stupid its not funny even though u are trying to be its youtube u don't have to spell shit right or type right so who gives a fuck your not a good dog owner so just sell your animal
MrBobthecorncob 5 months ago
@MrBobthecorncob Keep it up bro maby you will get a cookie.
CpsLock3 5 months ago
@CpsLock3 you don't make any sense
MrBobthecorncob 4 months ago
@CpsLock3 How many times do you exercise a dog daily? That is one of the main things dogs bark constantly... lack of exercise.
SantaValium 4 months ago
I've about had it with these "supremely confident in my own ignorance" attitudes.
GriffGruff78 6 months ago
Shock collars are bullies like Cesar Millan. They give the dogs pain and fright to get them to listen. Whatever happened to training???? The people who made the shock collars are bullies.
WendyPhanNguyen1 6 months ago
I wish anti e-collar folk actually put as much effort into learning about how e-collars work and are used as they did bashing them. It's funny, I have a video of my dog doing some obedience, i made no mention of the method or tools used, and someone posted a comment about how he wishes more people trained like me instead of resorting to prongs or remote collars. I USE BOTH PRONGS & E-COLLARS. Just shows you how ill-informed people are, they expect dogs trained with such tools must be fearful
shatteringglass 6 months ago
@shatteringglass There's too many bleeding hearts. You can't treat a dog like a human child. Yes, you should love them like one, but every animal needs discipline in their life. Mother dogs use their teeth to punish their pups, are they going to call that mother dog abusive? Your dog sticks his nose curiously into a hot cup of tea and learns that hot=pain, is that cup of tea psychologically damaging and abusive, too? If you train your dog with love AND discipline, they will respect you fully.
K9Connection122 6 months ago
Shock collars are too extreme and over the top. They are also ineffective. The shock disorients the dog so if you want them to stop doing a behavior your wasting your time, money and severely damaging the trust your dog has for you. This will also create intense fear. Unless you'd be willing to test it out on your self I wouldn't recommend using any type training tool or gadget.
ProphetGuardian 6 months ago
@ProphetGuardian This is all true, if you use the e-collar the wrong way.
You have no idea on how to use the e-collar.
I've tried it on myself and on my 10 year old niece.
Type in "How to use a remote collar for fearful dogs: Marley's story" It's a video of Robin Macfarlane using a e-collar on a fearfull dog. Then tell me if e-collars are ineffective, disorients the dog, damages trust with a dog or creates fear. In this case she used it to fix a fearfull dog.
andysepul1 6 months ago
@ProphetGuardian If a e-collar is being used to cause pain it's being used wrong.
The best way to training a dog is with a open mind
andysepul1 6 months ago
@andysepul1 What the fuck, are you serious ? Are you saying that there is a right way to use an electric collar on your dog that wouldn't cause pain ? isn't that the whole point of using an electric collar instead of a standard collar ? Isn't an e-collar used for a more extreme measures i.e. pain, in order to get your dog to listen ? I'm sorry If I took my dog to a trainer and they used an e- collar on my dog, I'd beat the ever living SHIT out of the trainer .
MulattaPride 6 months ago
@MulattaPride Yes im fucking serious. Would you punch someone in the face or tap them in the shoulder to get there attention? I understand that most people were raised to fear electricity. Whether you were shocked as a little kid, seen people die on tv or your parents put the fear in you to keep you from playing with anything that can shock you. Maybe if you read on how to properly find a dogs working level you would understand. Not all dogs use the same level. ---->
andysepul1 6 months ago
@MulattaPride E-collar and e-collar training has come a long way just how marker training has.
andysepul1 6 months ago
@andysepul1 Why not put one on babies when they crap them selves or cry?
TYspecials 5 months ago
@TYspecials That's a good idea
andysepul1 5 months ago
@TYspecials We should also let babies shit outside. We should also let them eat from the floor
andysepul1 5 months ago
@TYspecials Comparing babies and dogs seems to be a common way to attack the implementation of electronic collars, but this argument defeats itself since dogs are not babies, they are not little people and it is not healthy for you or for the dog to personfiy them.
GriffGruff78 5 months ago
@GriffGruff78 but A dog should be part of the family. You wouldnt do that to any other part of the family. Dogs can be trained without a shock collor.
TYspecials 5 months ago
@TYspecials Here's the thing... For most people, I think that the e-collar is inappropriate. If you need your dog to sit on command, behave in the home and behave on the leash like most people - you're absolutely right that the collar is completely unneccessary and I would take a dim view of someone who thought they needed to put their dog through collar conditioning for that. You're also correct that a dog is a part of the family, but the rest of the family is HUMAN. You wouldn't treat any...
GriffGruff78 5 months ago
@TYspecials (pt 2) ...human like a dog or vice-versa. The fact that I love my dog means that I put a lot of time, effort and money into his exercise, training, diet, health care and general well-being; it does not mean that I treat him like my son - because he's not. He's my dog. Don't lose sight of that - it isn't good for the dog.
GriffGruff78 5 months ago
@GriffGruff78 so you know.. I treat dogs better than humans.. <3
HiwiKiwi 5 months ago
@HiwiKiwi So you know... Treating a dog like a dog doesn't mean that you don't treat him as well as you treat other members of your family. I don't think that dogs are second class or deserve second class treatment, just that they are not human and should not be treated like humans.
GriffGruff78 5 months ago
@andysepul1 ( Continued ) Your dog should be obedient to you out of respect loyalty to you as pack leader, you don't gain respect out of freaking fear that's a good way to make your dog snap and turn on you. when respect comes out of fear then it's not really respect for you that's making them obey it's basically just emotional Blackmail that's making your dog obey .
MulattaPride 6 months ago
@MulattaPride I agree that you don't gain respect out of fear. That's way you don't use the e-collar to cause pain.
Did you see the video i told the other person to watch? It's a good video on what an e-collar can do.
andysepul1 6 months ago
@andysepul1 ( Continued ) If your dog sincerely respects you they will have loyalty, confidence & trust in you. If your dog is afraid of you they are only dealing and putting up with you out of terror, there will be a time when your dog stops fearing you once they've had enough .
MulattaPride 6 months ago
@ProphetGuardian I'm not sure I've ever seen someone with such a hopelessly ignorant opinion speak so authoritatively before. Sorry, but you have no clue what you're talking about whatsoever.
GriffGruff78 6 months ago
@GriffGruff78 I do have a clue. Electricity is nothing to play with. It causes burns and muscle damage. The dog will become disoriented and will often lung at anyone standing near by. I've seen this happen. There is no reason to electrocute a dog. Also if your using it on very low settings or vibration mode then what is the purpose for the electricity. Why not just use a collar the vibrates with high and low settings which would be more humane and effective.
ProphetGuardian 6 months ago
@ProphetGuardian I maintain that you do not have a clue. If I hold the terminals of a shock collar against my skin and continuously "electrocute" myself until the battery has been depleted, I will not have absorbed enough energy to cause a burn or damage muscle - there is simply not enough current delivered to create an injury. If you see "burns" on a dog's neck, it's because the owner has not fastened the collar tightly enough and the terminals have caused a mechanical abrasion - not a burn...
GriffGruff78 6 months ago
@ProphetGuardian (pt 2) ...caused by electrocution. If you've seen a dog become disoriented and lunge at anyone standing nearby when stimulated, that is because you don't have a clue about what you're doing. Collar conditioning is a process and you would be a miserable fool to place an e-collar on a dog's neck, begin administering shocks and expect any acceptable result. If you had a clue you would understand that introduction to the collar requires months of careful training before the dog...
GriffGruff78 6 months ago
@ProphetGuardian (pt 3) ...ever receives a shock and only after the dog understands exactly what it is supposed to do, understands that there are consequences for dereliction and understands that the stim is coming from the handler, not "anyone standing nearby". If you had a clue you would know that fair and humane use of the e-collar is possible and that it is a very effective tool. Sorry you saw a dog abused with an e-collar; if you had a clue you could have prevented it.
GriffGruff78 6 months ago
@akatariq And I never said you should use the collars on your dogs. Nobody's going to touch your precious little fur-humans. If you can train a dog efficiently without the collars, then great, do it that way. My problem with your opinion is that you are bashing methods you have little knowledge about. Why call us stupid when you have never witnessed us train? You come here to insult and do what Victoria did, spurt biased nonsense. You could keep it to yourself and not cause problems.
K9Connection122 6 months ago
@akatariq You really are being ignorant. You are defensive, if you really want to make this argument fall into your favor, use real evidence and not biased opinions that are your own personal beliefs and not necessarily the truth. Trainers that use prong or ecollars properly are in no way abusing the dog. In fact, those collars have saved many dogs' lives. If you think that's abuse, then brushing my collies must be abuse too since they cry much louder when we get a mat than when we use the prong
K9Connection122 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@akatariq There is a video that Robin Macfarlane has on youtube. It's of her using a e-collar to rehabilitate a very fearfull border collie. Look at the video and tell me if that's abuse. if you think that's abuse then your on crack. Not everything can be done with purely positive.
andysepul1 6 months ago
Comment removed
andysepul1 6 months ago 2
@akatariq cuz you know there is no study. you are close minded.
Do you think a tap on the shoulder is abuse. Because thats about all the dog feels when it gets a stim. You need to stop trying to talk about shit you know nothing about. Do you think with the technology today people are able to use electricity to not cause pain? Maybe like a estim from a TENS unit that does the total opposite and relieves pain
andysepul1 6 months ago
@akatariq When did i say that training was the same today as it was 40 years ago? So you go around just calling everybody stupid because they don't agree with you? Looks like you never had any kind of home training. You're as bad as those PITA folks. Why work harder not smarter?
I have used a e-collar before and i know how to use one properly. I use marker training to train my dogs. It's so hard talking to people like you. you're so close minded
andysepul1 6 months ago
@akatariq How did the study messure the dogs stress levels?
You don't want to understand. your close minded like every other anit e-collar person. For some reason you guys can't tell the difference between low level and high level stim. You guys talk about thing you know nothing about. I can tell you have little or no knowledge of the e-collar.
If you think a stim from a e-collar is abuse then im sure you also think letting your dog run around in the snow is also abuse.
andysepul1 6 months ago
@akatariq who says that one way of training is better then the other? It's a e-collar or remote collar not a shock collar. Anti e-collar folks just use that word to make is seem scary. The stim on a e-collar is just like a stim from tens unit that people use to relieve pain. Most anti e-collar studies i have read are just opinion. The are dishonest and biased.
I tried looking for your study and the only one i found was one done on the stress of dogs in the veterinarian waiting room.
andysepul1 6 months ago
@akatariq You train how you like to train, and I'll do my thing. My collie was the number one trained collie in obedience in the US for two years, and I know that this discussion is based on basic training, but he is just an example of what a knowledgeable trainer can accomplish when punishment and reward are used correctly, and that collie was one of the happiest and most loving dogs I had ever known. I see the same attitude and drive in the collie we have now, and I know he'll go as far.
K9Connection122 6 months ago
different. Punishment exists in every country, and there is just as much fully positive-based training in the states as there is in Sweden. But what I rely on is common sense and communication with my dogs. If you just live with your dog and do not enforce that you are in control, you will wind up with a lot of issues if you happened to have a dog like that shepherd. Plus, the owners were a hotel business with tourists constantly coming into the building with the dog. Liability much?
K9Connection122 6 months ago
@akatariq Dog training has not moved forward any more in the past 40 years than it has in the hundreds of years that we have been training dogs. If you were present when this shepherd's training was taking place, you would have been aware of the dog's "leadership" in the home. If you truly understand canine language that is. You have to put effort into training, but why switch your methods when they work and your dogs are as happy as any other? And don't give me bullshit that Sweden is any
K9Connection122 6 months ago
that we should treat our dogs like people and it stems from the same source of pity and emotion that allows dogs to sleep on the bed and climb on our shoulders thinking they're giving us a "hug". They do not think like us, they feel pain but physical corrections are NATURAL for canines. And prong collars do not even hurt. They are blunt and bent so that they do not press into the dogs skin painfully. And STUDIES have proven that they cause much less long term damage than a choke or strap collar.
K9Connection122 6 months ago
when it is misbehaving, leaving the dog to figure out what is wrong on its own. Of course, eventually it is going to stop performing the behavior but it takes him much longer to understand, and my experience with uneducated owners have proven to me that most of them aren't willing to put that kind of time and effort into the training. If prong collars are so "nasty", why have they worked for many years, and the dogs trained with them are just as "happy" as any other dog? It's the human outlook
K9Connection122 6 months ago
worked on a little basic obedience training, and the dog was visibly 150% better. And it took only an hour or two to accomplish this. Prong and ecollars are easily misused, as I have said, and it is that misuse that have earned them a terrible reputation. Yet, these tools have proven to be the quickest and most efficient methods when used by educated trainers. A single pop on the prong gets a point across much faster and is better communication than continuously stopping and leaving your dog
K9Connection122 6 months ago
move around or towards the man. This is because they were not firm and the dog took over leadership in the house. The dog was only doing what it felt was right, protecting its pack from intruders. The owners "encouragement" towards the dog to relax was virtually ineffective. We moved in and became very firm on the dog, establishing a dominant role by breaking eye contact between him and strangers, providing a pop on the prong and a loud voice when the dog left his spot and charged them, and
K9Connection122 6 months ago
should provide a positive environment for your dog, with a lot of encouragement, praise, treats, and love. But owners always take this too far, and recently I've seen it in a GSD we trained. The owners believed that a dog should never receive punishment, and therefore they would not raise their voice or put a prong collar on the dog. We let them show us their methods of handling the dog when a man came into the house, and the dog became very stressed, tried to bite, and wouldn't let the owners
K9Connection122 6 months ago
@akatariq Any dog can be trained without aversive stimuli, but through my experience, experience of many other trainers, and my mother's 40+ years of professional dog training, relying on reward and negative punishment breaks down over time, is much more difficult for owners to keep up with and it simply doesn't always work. Positive punishment is something naturally occurring. Dogs aren't humans, and imposing our morals that they're little humans into their training is ridiculous. Yes, you
K9Connection122 6 months ago
@akatariq Lol I'm not very educated in this area? Do you know how long I HAVE been studying canine behavior, wild and domesticated? Since I could pretty much read, plus animal behavior and psychology is what I went to school for. Even when there is a firm leader in a pack, there is always occurrences of nipping, shoving, T-ing, mounting amongst groups of unaltered dogs. I know any harm is minimal and pretty much harmless, but a prong or ecollar is no worse than a dog mouthing the face of another
K9Connection122 6 months ago
@akatariq Every anit e-collar study that i ever read was testing high level stims. Training with a e-collar has come a long way just like marker training. There's a huge difference in training with high level and low level of stim. The level of stim i use on my dog is 10 levels lower then the level i found for my 10 year old niece.
Maybe you would understand more if you learned the proper way to find a dogs working level with a e-collar or you can try it on yourself.
andysepul1 6 months ago
@akatariq When using a e-collar as a correction it causes less stress on the dog then withholding the reward. Institute of Animal Welfare and behavior University of Veterinary Medicine Hanover did a study on the 3 forms of corrections prong collars, e-collars and negative punishment (conditioned quitting signal). Dogs that showed a higher learning effect were the dogs that recieved corrections from the e-collar and prong.they were also less stressed
andysepul1 6 months ago
And the prong, to somebody like you, or Victoria Stilwell, would be considered harmful too. Yet, it's the least harmful collar of them all, right up with the e-collar. Would you believe that? Does that mean that, *gasp* the "shock collar" can be used properly and not harm a dog?? You have to be open-minded and not judge a trainer's use of methods and tools when they work, because every good trainer may have different opinions and different levels of progress. If the dog is happy+safe, let it be.
K9Connection122 6 months ago
home, simply raising your voice towards your dog does it a certain extent of harm. Owners that use buckle collars on dogs that pull don't realize they're harming the dogs esophagus, and with a dog like mine that is high energy and high drive, the "positive" methods of "stopping until your dog returns to you" never works, or holding him behind your body. Trust me, we've tried all of that. So we have to keep the prong collar on him and give him a pop when he pulls so he won't damage his neck.
K9Connection122 6 months ago
@akatariq I can understand the e-collar being banned because of its misuse. But not because it's a harmful training tool. Like I've said, I've seen people use it incorrectly and cause a dog harm. Which is why only professional handlers that understand the collar's purpose should own one. Many trainers suggest to new dog owners to buy one, which I think is very wrong on the trainer's part. In the wild, dogs are always causing each other harm to determine ranking and provide discipline. And at
K9Connection122 6 months ago
@akatariq Can you explain what you thing is so bad about the e-collar?
andysepul1 6 months ago
What idiot would put a shock collar on a puppy? is she clue-less?
SydneyCelloPlayer7 6 months ago
Comment removed
SydneyCelloPlayer7 6 months ago
"Victoria Stilwell discusses the use of shock collars in dog training and her disgust with the practice."
Other than her personal disgust for the tool..you cannot discuss a tool you are ignorant about.
IntoEwe 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
she doesn't get it at all..she does not even know how an ecollar is properly used.
Perhaps if she understood that and then just simply said I prefer to not use one it could be accepted..but to blab on with incorrect information is really sad and to further say that anyone that uses one is even more sad.
poor woman.
IntoEwe 6 months ago
she doesn't get it at all..she does not even know how an ecollar is properly used.
Perhaps if she understood that and then just simply said I prefer to not use one it could be accepted..but to blab on with incorrect information is really sad and to further say that anyone that uses one is even more sad.
IntoEwe 6 months ago
I hate shock collars. I will never use one and I can't believe people put them on puppies. My "friend" had a GSD/Husky pup that was kept in a crate 20+ hours a day without any toys and she only took him outside to go to the bathroom. So, when he whined and barked almost all day she decided to put a shock collar on him to get him to stop barking. In the end she gave her puppy to someone else because he "bit her" when he actually just mouthed her hand while playing. She was a horrid owner anyway.
EverBlueMinty 7 months ago
@EverBlueMinty The e-collar didn't make your freind abuse her dog. People can do that without a e-collar. I've never used a e-collar on a pup but i've seen others people use it on a pup and did a very good job. Look up Robin Macfarlane she has videos here on youtube and uses e-collars on pups. She's a very nice lady and will probably answer any question you have on the e-collar. Learn a little more about it before you say you will never use it.
andysepul1 6 months ago
@andysepul1 I never said she abused her puppy. She was just lazy and didn't want to train it so she used a shock collar as an easy fix. I still will never use one though. Especially not on puppies. I use my own method that works well enough for me. Though, if other people want to they can as It's not any of my business. I just don't like it when people use them but nothing I say would stop anyone anyway.
EverBlueMinty 6 months ago
@EverBlueMinty 20 hours in a crate a day is abuse
andysepul1 6 months ago
@andysepul1 Either way she doesn't have him any more. Thankfully.
EverBlueMinty 6 months ago
@EverBlueMinty I've felt the e-collar and it's not ment to cause pain or scared the dog the level you find for the dog is just barley to were the dog can feel it. I've put it on myself and it's just like someone tapping you on the shoulder to get your attention. I could have it on all day. I've had friends that hated the e-collar but once they felt the proper way to find a dogs working level they didn't look at the e-collar the same way. It's e-collar not shock collar.
andysepul1 6 months ago
@andysepul1 It may not be meant for that but I still won't use one. I have my own way of training and such that works well enough for me. Like I said in a reply to someone else, Other people can use them as it's their business not mine. I just don't like it...Well hate is a better word but whatever works.
EverBlueMinty 6 months ago
Shock is just a word the anit e-collar folks like to use to make the e-collar look scary
andysepul1 6 months ago
never shock collars! there is no need. If there is any extreme case, you can use a vibration collar, the vibration is even softer than a cellphone on vibration, it does not hurt the dog or makes him feel pain, it is just to redirect his attention. But shock collars?? THese so called trainer should use those collars themselves or put them on their children but on my doggy?? never!!
phabbiola 7 months ago
@phabbiola Seems like you know very little about E-collars. I've used the vibration on dogs and it seems to scared most dogs. Most e-collars do not have a way to control the level of vibration.
If a person uses a e-collar to cause pain he/she is using it wrong. I have tried it on myself and my little niece.
Not all dogs use the same level of stim. You only turn it up to were the dog just barely feels it.
You shouldnt knock the e-collar till you learn a more about it.
andysepul1 7 months ago
@phabbiola The level of stim i use on my dog is 10 levels less then when i feel it and 7 levels less then when my little niece feels it.
If you read the studies againts the e-collar they were all from anti e-collar people. they are bias and all of them used very high levels of stim on the dog just to prove that they are right. Now thats abuse if you ask me.
The e-collar has come a long way just like marker training. They use to use very high levels of stim back in the day
andysepul1 7 months ago
Better a shock collar then to putting him down
TheCrankaintdead 7 months ago
I would put a shock collar on her which activated every time she affected that annoying faux-American accent. In fact, I'd be all for putting a shock collar on her to stop her from talking.
SocratesOwnsGorgias 7 months ago
She's so disgusted she's speechless.... I would be too, honestly!
hippityhop05 7 months ago