Hi James! I know the Jesuits are stinkers and as much as I can about them but I am a bit in the dark as to what they have to do with 'the rapture', I never saw a connection. I spend most of my time learning and now will do my best to figure this one subject out. Thank you my brother...
The Catholic church hates being called the whore of Babylon and the pope being called the antichrist, so some claim that to stop this attack, the Jesuits dreamt up the idea of futurism. This gets the pope "off the hook" and gives him some level of "credibility." My other video, which I will send to you, should explain this. Blessings as always.
@excatholics The first futurist doctrine did indeed begin in an anti-reformation effort, and to deflect folks from fingering the pope as "The" "Antichrist". It began with 16th century Jesuit Francisco Ribera as a 42 month period of future tribulation. Further transmitted by Manuel de Lecunza, Robert Irving and John Darby, and made it's way into the 20th century western church via C. I. Scofield and his annotated bible.
@excatholics The reformers didn't buy into Ribera so just decades later another Jesuit, Louis Alcazar, was put to the task and he invented the heresy of preterism that also made it's way into the 20th century church. Suggesting Revelation was basically fulfilled in and by the events of 70 AD.
As a result, virtually the entirety of the "church" CANNOT EVEN CONSIDER that antichrist Muhammad could be THE false prophet of the book of Revelation. Isn't that amazing?
Man I thought you were gonna convince me. You didn't at all. Just by saying "let's not give the Jesuits too much credit" doesn't mean much in terms of evidence in fact you didn't offer any decent evidence. I still believe Futurism is a Jesuit machination.
Origen not only mutilated himself, he was (the) one who held to the notion of ultimate reconciliation of the demons & possibly satan to God. Ridiculous isnt it? I once mentioned this to a Presbyterian brother who holds a doctorate of divinity & held the church fathers in profound regard - even he conceded on this one (to his credit) - this stuff is pretty serious error & quite embarrassing to the reformed folk.
@IDH77 But the question here is this: what is the wrath of God? Do not Christians die in earthquakes and famines and from disease? When does the wrath of God really begin in Revelations? Also, for many of the trumpets, there is a delineation made between those who have the mark and those who do not -- those Christians will not face the God's judgement. The wrath of God, ultimately, is Hell. Be careful when taking that verse to mean that we will miss out on the tribulation.
@morethanimusic Obviously hell is the ultimate wrath of God but Paul promises that Christians will not be part of the wrath of god TWICE in relation to the Rapture. 1 Thess 1:10 & 5:9
All those things you mentioned are not part of the wrath of God they are simply part of this fallen world. In fact they are arguments that Christians will NOT simply waltz through the GT completely unharmed.
I am not convinced, from scripture, that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture. I was raised pre-trib, but it was my examination of scripture itself that made me question this doctrine. Further, I do not see any scriptural evidence that would dismiss the notion that we could be in the midst of the "tribulation" today (some of seals may already have been broken) with the more severe judgments still to come as well as the millennial kingdom.
@morethanimusic My point is that you can't dismiss those who have a different view of end times simply because they do not agree with you when they do have Biblical support. Even those who believe in a Jesuit conspiracy (I'm not sure about that one myself) are not necessarily unscriptural in their thinking. Quite honestly, I see a lot of twisting and assuming in the pre-trib argument that makes me uncomfortable, especially since its proponents deride others for their lack of scholarship.
I wasn't totally convinced on the pre-trib rapture until very recently. I can send you some links to some very good sermons about it that persuaded me if you're interested.
@ChristianTruthHammer Sure, I can take a look at them, but I probably have already heard the arguments. In my study, it seems that the straightforward interpretation of the words of prophecy would point to the following order:
1) the Deceiver will come,
2) there will be signs in the heaven,
3) Jesus will return and gather up the Saints.
At this point, the judgement will begin. My personal thought is that at this point, the bowl judgments will begin, but Jesus will come at the last trumpet.
@ChristianTruthHammer Really, this is the crux for the matter for me. I can see how you can arrive at a pre-trib rapture from the Bible, but there is just as much support for a mid or post-tribulation view. I believe my view requires less creativity and is more true to the literal text, but I would be glad to be pleasantly surprised. In either case, this debate distracts from our purpose: 1 Timothy 1:5. We need to preach to the lost, regardless of our view of end times prophecy.
I'll send you the links. I understand the confusion. I was on the fence for a long time because I could see legitimate arguments for both pre-trib and post-trib. My understanding now is that there is a pre-tribulation rapture of the church and a post-tribulation rapture of tribulation saints, which is also when Old Testament saints are resurrected. Dispensationalism is the key.
Hi James! I know the Jesuits are stinkers and as much as I can about them but I am a bit in the dark as to what they have to do with 'the rapture', I never saw a connection. I spend most of my time learning and now will do my best to figure this one subject out. Thank you my brother...
ThePsalm40 1 year ago
@ThePsalm40
The Catholic church hates being called the whore of Babylon and the pope being called the antichrist, so some claim that to stop this attack, the Jesuits dreamt up the idea of futurism. This gets the pope "off the hook" and gives him some level of "credibility." My other video, which I will send to you, should explain this. Blessings as always.
excatholics 1 year ago
@excatholics The first futurist doctrine did indeed begin in an anti-reformation effort, and to deflect folks from fingering the pope as "The" "Antichrist". It began with 16th century Jesuit Francisco Ribera as a 42 month period of future tribulation. Further transmitted by Manuel de Lecunza, Robert Irving and John Darby, and made it's way into the 20th century western church via C. I. Scofield and his annotated bible.
watch?v=grPwQ2obbFA
PeteWaldo 3 weeks ago
@excatholics The reformers didn't buy into Ribera so just decades later another Jesuit, Louis Alcazar, was put to the task and he invented the heresy of preterism that also made it's way into the 20th century church. Suggesting Revelation was basically fulfilled in and by the events of 70 AD.
As a result, virtually the entirety of the "church" CANNOT EVEN CONSIDER that antichrist Muhammad could be THE false prophet of the book of Revelation. Isn't that amazing?
watch?v=8lEro81ygXQ
PeteWaldo 3 weeks ago
Man I thought you were gonna convince me. You didn't at all. Just by saying "let's not give the Jesuits too much credit" doesn't mean much in terms of evidence in fact you didn't offer any decent evidence. I still believe Futurism is a Jesuit machination.
GodsTwoProphets 1 year ago
Origen not only mutilated himself, he was (the) one who held to the notion of ultimate reconciliation of the demons & possibly satan to God. Ridiculous isnt it? I once mentioned this to a Presbyterian brother who holds a doctorate of divinity & held the church fathers in profound regard - even he conceded on this one (to his credit) - this stuff is pretty serious error & quite embarrassing to the reformed folk.
Jehu30 1 year ago
@Jehu30
And this is why we use the Scripture in light of the church "fathers" and never the other way around.
excatholics 1 year ago 2
The key to understanding the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the difference between Israel and the Church.
Once you understand that you understand the true Church of Jesus Christ will not go through the Great Tribulation.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 KJV For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
IDH77 1 year ago 2
@IDH77 But the question here is this: what is the wrath of God? Do not Christians die in earthquakes and famines and from disease? When does the wrath of God really begin in Revelations? Also, for many of the trumpets, there is a delineation made between those who have the mark and those who do not -- those Christians will not face the God's judgement. The wrath of God, ultimately, is Hell. Be careful when taking that verse to mean that we will miss out on the tribulation.
morethanimusic 1 year ago
@morethanimusic Obviously hell is the ultimate wrath of God but Paul promises that Christians will not be part of the wrath of god TWICE in relation to the Rapture. 1 Thess 1:10 & 5:9
All those things you mentioned are not part of the wrath of God they are simply part of this fallen world. In fact they are arguments that Christians will NOT simply waltz through the GT completely unharmed.
IDH77 1 year ago
The early so-called church fathers are more pagan than Christian.
ChristiansofAsia 1 year ago
I am not convinced, from scripture, that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture. I was raised pre-trib, but it was my examination of scripture itself that made me question this doctrine. Further, I do not see any scriptural evidence that would dismiss the notion that we could be in the midst of the "tribulation" today (some of seals may already have been broken) with the more severe judgments still to come as well as the millennial kingdom.
morethanimusic 1 year ago
@morethanimusic My point is that you can't dismiss those who have a different view of end times simply because they do not agree with you when they do have Biblical support. Even those who believe in a Jesuit conspiracy (I'm not sure about that one myself) are not necessarily unscriptural in their thinking. Quite honestly, I see a lot of twisting and assuming in the pre-trib argument that makes me uncomfortable, especially since its proponents deride others for their lack of scholarship.
morethanimusic 1 year ago
@morethanimusic
The Jesuits did not invent the pretrib. rapture theory.
It was actually condemned as a fable as early as 431 AD(See my home page).....
ziggy2sound4u 1 year ago
@morethanimusic
I wasn't totally convinced on the pre-trib rapture until very recently. I can send you some links to some very good sermons about it that persuaded me if you're interested.
ChristianTruthHammer 1 year ago
@ChristianTruthHammer Sure, I can take a look at them, but I probably have already heard the arguments. In my study, it seems that the straightforward interpretation of the words of prophecy would point to the following order:
1) the Deceiver will come,
2) there will be signs in the heaven,
3) Jesus will return and gather up the Saints.
At this point, the judgement will begin. My personal thought is that at this point, the bowl judgments will begin, but Jesus will come at the last trumpet.
morethanimusic 1 year ago
@ChristianTruthHammer Really, this is the crux for the matter for me. I can see how you can arrive at a pre-trib rapture from the Bible, but there is just as much support for a mid or post-tribulation view. I believe my view requires less creativity and is more true to the literal text, but I would be glad to be pleasantly surprised. In either case, this debate distracts from our purpose: 1 Timothy 1:5. We need to preach to the lost, regardless of our view of end times prophecy.
morethanimusic 1 year ago
@morethanimusic
I'll send you the links. I understand the confusion. I was on the fence for a long time because I could see legitimate arguments for both pre-trib and post-trib. My understanding now is that there is a pre-tribulation rapture of the church and a post-tribulation rapture of tribulation saints, which is also when Old Testament saints are resurrected. Dispensationalism is the key.
ChristianTruthHammer 1 year ago
Amen! Thank you for posting.
edwardpf123 1 year ago