He has the right to voice his opinion but he needs to work on articulation and volume control. I and fyi:
Marxism = analysis of capitalism
Communism = vague utopian concept that is extremely idealistic (to put it charitably)
(therefore; one can be a marxist-sympathizer (and recognize the flaws of capital accumulation without advocating for centralized-totalitarian government and economy.
Know the difference; don't make an ass out of yourself.
They aren't silencing him they are trying to tell him what they are about, this guy was getting people all worked up about nothing, and use of loudspeakers was trying to be kept to a minimum because sooner or later everyone is going to be running aorund with a megaphone screaming at eachother.
I was there, and seen this man. I did not see the person trying to stop him, but if I had, I would have confronted him. No one has the right to stop anyone's voice in this movement, that's exactly what I am standing up against. I want our governments to create their own currency, and return power to the people. Not to supress us even further with social programs, or mutilate people in the name of equality. Pyramid schemes are in every aspect of our lives, people who don't mind, are at the top.
There is definitely a hidden message in all this. After all, we have to be careful not to throw out the Humans, only to be later ruled by Pigs - put into Animal Farm metaphors, that is.
Go my man. These IDIOTS are all for free speech as long as you express their opinion. Thank you for posting this my friend. It exposes these people for what they really are ; They love to blanket themselves in the cloth of right to protest and freedom of speech BUT God forbid someone else exercises those same rights.
THIS GUY IS MY HERO! FUCKING HILARIOUS! Buddy if you're out there message me, we'll have some drinks, go down to Occupy Toronto and tell them fractional reserve banking is awesome!
Capitalism doesn't work much better, have a look around the word... it has never worked for most of humanity, and it ain't even working the United States anymore. We are wasteful, polluted, and getting poorer by the day.
Canada used to have it right, strict government regulation, Crown corporations... a mixed economy, high import tarrifs, and strongly democratic workplaces (i.e. unions) is a good balance IMO.
Also... somebody don't have to put people's voice as "communism". Since this man said everybody should have right to speek. Then the people who occupy also have their right and their reason. Marxism is just a tool and way thek think it might be work. If trhere is no Marxism, there aways will be other idea come out and fixed the ir action. western society has twisted marxism and communism for a long time.
This guy looks and sounds drunk but it's still awesome none the less. Karl Marx is wrong. The people at Occupy who think that he was right should hear this and maybe have a discussion with him.
@blazingcatfur Unfortunately, I have spoken to many people who are promoting Marxism, Socialism and Communism. I believe I have only spoken to one moderate person. One guy I interviewed wants a $20/hr minimum wage and a free house.
He is not saying anything about communism. He is stating that Karl Marx is wrong.
Communism and Fascism are both based on the teachings of Karl Marx (why do you think the Nazi's called themselves the National Socialist Party). One went left and the other went right, both ended up in the same place. A dictatorial police state!
This same state is appearing in Canada, United States and the UK!
There has never been a true communist nation so to say it works or doesn't work is impossible. I truly believe however that every single citizen of this nation should be guaranteed food,shelter,medical care and education. Obviously I'm not saying every-one regardless of employment or unemployment should be equal, but rather that every-one should have the necessities of life and equal opportunity. Only by investing in our people rather than our banks can we prosper.
Lol thats our awesome country ftw ... mind you Id be annoyed by having a loud speaker blasting in my ear and not even being able to hear what the guys saying ... But freedom is everyones right, so I wouldnt feel right about complaining about it i I was there.
They were trying to talk to him peacefully. Everyone has a right to protest, but not everyone has a right to blare a loudspeaker in people's ears. That is incredibly annoying. Yes the man has a right to speak, no he does not have a right to do it in a loudspeaker.
Also, if he wants people to take his points seriously, maybe he should listen to their comments, instead of yelling "KARL MARX WAS WRONG!!!" every time they try to speak calmly.
In a not very far future we will see salaries as a form of slavery. people will work owning their businesses.. sharing the profits (if money still exists) Slavery was also hard to eliminate... they were good reasons to maintain it. even the slaves believe in those reasons... The evolution of societies is socialism. you will can start your own entrepreneurship, but instead of paying a salary you will contract people giving a share.
@JGuildersleeve Has kicked so many asses in discussions with ignorants here. if english was my native tongue i would help him designoranting the ignorants... They just haven't read communist manifesto (the primary source) never so they repeat cliche phrases like idiots for the rest of their lives. The thing here is the vision of society. A society were the strong ones eat the weak ones, or a society based on cooperation. My vision is that evolution in humans will lead to cooperation.
@2112murphy If this guy is from China, they have crony capitalism there now, bordering on fascism (a one party dictatorship which still encourages free enterprise). Just look at the lead paint toy issue among a thousand other similar issues. They could have only happened in a county with 0 environmental and labour regulations, where greed and capitalism is allowed to run amok.
Haha, that dude is a hero! These protesters with their populist slogans are either uneducated and/or detached from reality. They're just pissed that somebody's better at making money than they are.
Much like the guy in the video, you guys seem to misunderstand what this movement is about to such an astonishing degree, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. You read 2-10 online articles and blog posts from major media or reactionary blogs(and trust them for some reason), and decide that this group of people who don't know each other have all decided that they want Stalin and only Stalin?. Cause it's the only alternative.?calm down and think about it a bit more. ever heard of Scandinavia?
Something you may want to note: certain communist sects believe that the socialist stage has NEVER been achieved. Those sects include Trotsky, Marx, and Lenin.
@2112murphy But you understand that that's an asinine way to reach a conclusion, right. In fact, there's a term for such a logical fallacy, argumentum ad verecundium. The appropriate thing to do is to take no one's word but to verify both claims for the validity. The fact that 4 people should like your stunning intellectual fallacy is telling of how willing people are to hear anything that happens to confirm their already held assumptions.
@JGuildersleeve you are using Ridicule and appeal to authority, which are major Fallacies. You are strong with Logic but since you are presenting weak arguments for Socialism, mainly, it has never worked for the people truly, it is an oppressive system in which the wealth is redistributed in extraordinary ways, supplemented by a fascist regime. Marxism's endgame is a horizontal society without much innovation,incentive, nor freedom. A constitutional republic is the most free system to date
@matsutakneatche You're accusing me of using ridicule? Here's what some people have said to me on this thread: "Dude put the bong down"; "GO LIVE IN CUBA"; "crazy Stalinist"; "There are a few, cranks like yourself"; "Get off the victim track kid and get a life"; "You are even entitled to pretend to live in an alternate reality of your own making as you obviously do, even if, as in your case, it was cooked up in 'baking social justice cupcakes 101'"
Now that's a fraction of what people have said. It seems to me, if you care about people using ridicule, you would critique the people who have had the monopoly over it in this thread, which is not me, as I have demonstrated. I can only assume that you either have not read the thread, or simply don't care about ridicule if it happens to support your ideological bias.
Perhaps too you can show me one example where I have made an appeal to authority. All I have done is suggested that if you are going to critique Marxism you should understand what Marx actually said. That's not an appeal to authority, that is precisely what one does in a rational argument. And what Marx said is precisely the opposite of what you claim. It is not "a horizontal society" nor "an oppressive system". Rather it is a society with absolutely NO political power. That's a fact.
@matsutakneatche Socialism, as far as I can tell, hasn't really happened in too many places - at least not by Marx's standards. One excellent example where it DID happen historically was in Catalonia, Spain. And, in fact, it was quite successful - so successful in fact that it was destroyed by Soviet Russia.
You might want to read Homage to Catalonia George Orwell who was there on the POUM side and was shot through the throat by a sniper with street fighting all the time. Prisons were maxed out. It sounds like a hell hole to me
Marxism and Communism DOES WORK.....if you're at the top of their power pyramid. But, just like with any other form of government, if you're the other 99%, you're f--ked.
@TorontoBoi There is no power pyramid in Marxism. As Marx notes, in a functioning society, there would be NO political power. In fact, it's only capitalism that demands a power hierachy and a system of owners and slaves.
@JGuildersleeve LMAO, if their is a Marxist government, a Socialist government, a Capitalistic government, THERE IS A PYRAMID OF POWER. Don't be naive in thinking "only capitalism is flawed, but THIS TIME we'll get it right, i promise." LOL.
Power corrupts. Absolutely power corrupts, absolutely.
@TorontoBoi Do you understand how socialism works? There is no such thing as a socialist government - that's a contradiction in terms. Again, I repeat, as Marx suggests, a properly function society has no political power. Socialism is simply workers controlling the means of production. So, no, there is no pyramid of power in a socialist system but this only becomes clear when you understand what socialism is.
said, "Socialism is simply workers controlling the means of production"
You are incorrect:
Socialism:
"Any of various economic and political theories advocating collective OR governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods"
@JGuildersleeve and do YOU understand how to IMPLEMENT socialistic ideas into society???
You see, i've actually studied all the 'isms, and they all sound GREAT, on paper. Who wouldn't want free education / health care / personal massages, you name it? So JGuildersleeve, WHO is going to implement this? You, me, everybody? Who decides this? Ultimately the decision will once again be made by a select FEW to control the fates of the MASSES. Bam! Socialism just failed, again, and again...
@TorontoBoi What do you mean, this time we'll get it right? The Russian Revolution was widely understood at the time by mainstream marxists as a right wing deviation from Marxism. Cuba has been the recipient of a ongoing, relentless terrorist campaign carried out by the world's largest superpower since the early 60s. It's hard to get a functioning society going when that's hapening.
@JGuildersleeve oh and i have another shocker that'll make your head explode, because you're clearly uninformed and disconnected from reality. I can see you're clearly anti-capitalism, well i have devastating news for you pal. Are you ready for this? THERE IS NO SUCH THING as "TOO BIG TO FAIL" in a free market, Capitalistic system!!! Capitalism is already DEAD. Please open your eyes and behold your utopian socialist society! Oooooh, it's not pretty, is it Guildersleeve?
@TorontoBoi Ironic how they are protesting to be the 99%, and thats how many end up getting the boot on their face in a Marxist society. Unless you're one of the very few elite of 'the Party', INSOC of course.
actually, In marxism and true communism, there is no government in the world and also there is no private ownership. People don't need the commodity economy system. They feed themselfs by get what they need for live
So that's many countries people think are "communism" call themselves "Socialism Countries".In Marx's idea, human's society's path is: feudalism-capitalism-socialism and communism. However, socialism has been proved worked.
@moonraven3 it's sad that most sheeple can't even see this painfully obvious "pyramid structure" of power that is in practically every single form of government. This is the Illuminati system of control, and it's a brilliant system IF you're at the top of the pyramid while the masses below are holding all the weight, falsely believing they are free, are given the false illusion of choice, and are kept in ignorance of every single political decision.
what should be obvious from occupy earth is that capitalism is not perfect either. maybe our biggest problem is thinking that any ism will work. instead lets work together. fight together for each other. not fight against each other.
that guy is acting insane.. the message should not be about what does not work, we should be talking of what does work. we don't have to all agree on what works we have to agree to work with each other. participatory democracy.
Once again same ol that always silences the people! It’s not us vs. them. Jew vs. gentile, Muslim vs West. Communist vs. capitalists. It is us vs us. It has always been us vs us. The longer we don’t accept this the longer they win.
So funny at the very end a guy tries to come over and say "that wasn't socialism". How often have we heard that refrain? Oh, it just wasn't practiced properly! Give me a break. Thing is, capitalists say the same thing. We could say capitalism hasn't been fully practiced either. But imperfect capitalism has done a lot more good than imperfect socialism.
@OxAO Like say, in Nicaragua and Haiti, the poorest countries in the hemisphere? Or perhaps you're thinking of the scorched earth campaign style of capitalism in Guatemala? Maybe the dictatorial capitalism of Iran from the 50s to the 70s is more your style? Then, of course, there's the murderous Pinochet's capitalism. Or how about the good that the United States has done as the leading terrorist state in the world?
You calling George Washington a terrorist is clear proof of that.
Pinochet was ordered to overthrow Allende by the courts and a coalition in the House of Deputies, since Allende’s party only had maybe 35 percent of the seats in the House of Deputies
If Allende Marxist ideas came to power Chili would have been another North Korea or Cuba today.
@phil8888 Well, actually, that's not quite right. Socialism is workers controlling the means of production so if you have a situation where that's not happening or, say, the state own the means of production, then what you have isn't socialism, certainly not by Marx's standards. There has been full practiced capitalism but in the third world where it has been forced violently on countries. In the industrialized world, their economic systems have been strongly protected.
Thank god for capitalism- every person has the equal right to pursue success. a system that honours human achievement. A system that requires hard to work to be successful. Because that's the way the world works, you know. Money doesn't just fall from the sky, or in this case, from the government. Wake up.
What exactly was Karl Marx wrong about? He theorized that capitalism would destroy itself through the polarization of wealth in society, and that seems to be exactly what we are seeing.
It might surprise people to learn that Marx wrote very little about how a socialist society should actually be organized. How we build a democracy which operates in the interests of the working class is entirely up to us.
This is the MOST STUPID alleged protest in all my life. No originality and just shouting a bunch of borrowed canned slogans. No questions or workable suggestions; just a bunch of meaningless slogans. At least in Quebec they talk about construction corruption.
BTW: can the people that claim to care about Canada, please pick up the tons of fucking trash the protestors are generating and throwing in our streets.
Left wing Right wing I"m sick of that shit. I want a system that works better. For all of humanity. Every Ecosystem on earth is in decline. Over 1billion on earth living in poverty. We have the resources and technology to fix it. That is the facts. Whats left wing or right wing about that? Our current system will never fix those problems. In fact it will make it worse. Everyone knows that don't they?
@666enoch666 Every ecosystem on earth is not in decline . You really need to get out in the world and see things for yourself kid and quit listening to wacked out left wingers .
@hanksnow82 I'm no kid. Do you know what I'm even talking about? Science. Facts. Are scientist left winger? Can you explain your comment to me? Maybe I'm the one who doesn't understand you?
@hanksnow82 You have the internet. You should start looking at the state of our world. You have all the information at your fingertips. Every ecosystem is in decline. You will not find any Scientific source that says otherwise. Maybe your hearing this for the first time. Sorry man. The earth will not be able to sustain the human race if we keep going down our current destructive path. That is a scientific fact. There is nothing left wing or right wing about that.
@666enoch666 I live on a large lake in Ontario thats eco system is in better shape then it has been in over 50 years . Sorry but people are catching on to you eco terrorists and your bull shit .
@666enoch666 Right, nothing left or right wing about this until they introduce the notion of carbon taxes. People are licking their lips at how they can blame all of the earth's climate on humans, and outright ignoring that the end of ecosystems and birth of new ones is something that happened time and time again on our planet. Outright ignoring the power of the solar activity, polar shifts etc
@AutomatedForexRobots And you're outright ignoring the overwhelming consensus of the experts in the field (you know, people who are in a position to know) which suggests uncontroversially that humans have played a significant role in climate change.
those marshalls are retards i have no respect for them, they think their the only ones there and act like they protest harder than others, their fucking anoying too
Hmmmm and things are going so well in capitalist Europe these Days!!! Has nothing to do with the style of government, it has to do with the leaders, themselves. You people just don't listen, Kinda like in the French Revolution. Its quiet right now but won't be long!!!
@gimmethedetails Does it explain how there has never been such a thing as a free market capitalist society except in the third world where it was violently shoved down their throats? I would guess that in an article that isn't peer reviewed and therefore does not have to be accurate, it doesn't.
@gimmethedetails "Tell that to people that lived in the Soviet Union" - which is why I have been saying since yesterday that the Soviet Union was not a socialist system, certainly not by Marxist standards. The same thing is true of Europe today.
You have read about Marx but you think Mao and Stalin didn't run their political systems based on Marx, Lennon etc... Socialism and Communism??
So how does everyone contribute?? you still have not answered that question.
"The premise is that if people have control over what they produce, they will be happy to do it" - Thats called the FREE MARKET SYSTEM, when you have control over what you do YOU are FREE.
@gimmethedetails I know they didn't run their systems on Marx, since Marx suggested that there shouldn't even be a Mao or a Stalin. Rather, Marx suggested there should be no political power whatsoever. What Stalin and Mao did was in perfect contradiction to what Marx was suggesting.
@gimmethedetails More over, I suggest you actually examine how economic systems work. Free market capitalism does not make the labourer free, which is why 18th and 19th Century conservatives, including people like Adam Smith and Abraham Lincoln, opposed free market capitalism. Socialism means one thing - the worker has control over what they produce. That's all socialism is. So if you're in favour of that, then you're in favour of socialism, since that's its definition and that's what Marx says
Furthermore, Lenin wasn't even a Marxist. This is historically document. The Russian Marxists at the time like Antonie Pannekoek, Emma Goldman, and Rosa Luxemburg were critical of the Bolsheviks for being a right wing deviation of the socialist movement which is why Lenin referred to people within the Marxist movement as infantile leftists. This is all historically documented, like I said.
"shamefully adopt the rhetorical trick of shifting the goalpost to another point in order to avoid owning up to the fact that you glaringly mischaracterized the quotation. I agree that the 10 planks would be problematic if that were the GOAL of communism "
whatever, just watch the links i posted. This is getting silly.
@gimmethedetails First of all, I'm not a Marxist. I'm simply a person who has read Marx, unlike you and I am simply a person who believes that people should be accountable for their statements rather than be allowed to blither out tiresome cliches without evidence, again unlike you. You don't "get everyone to contribute" - it's not a system of capitalism where people are forced to work at jobs, doing work they have no personal investment in.
@gimmethedetails The premise is that if people have control over what they produce, they will be happy to do it - a premise that has not only been proven in societies that have had such a system (Catalonia Spain for instance) but also by, say, scientists who work 80 weeks without getting paid for it.
@gimmethedetails Furthermore, I'm certainly not advocating using force. You are the one who seems to be supporting capitalism whose history is having been shoved violently down people's throats. Furthermore, a socialist system does not rob anyone of the fruits of their labour. In fact, it's precisely the opposite. In a socialist system, a person entirely controls their labour, not their owner. They are not, what Abraham Lincoln referred to as wage slaves.
@gimmethedetails Good, nice character assassination. Explain to me what the quotation has to do with government rather than shamefully adopt the rhetorical trick of shifting the goalpost to another point in order to avoid owning up to the fact that you glaringly mischaracterized the quotation. I agree that the 10 planks would be problematic if that were the GOAL of communism rather than steps that would "outstrip themselves." For Marx, the ten planks are to be overcome, just like capitalism.
"To each according to their need and from each according to his ability" is WRONG and Gov should not be using force to Take from one to give to another... period.
It's anti freedom, anti progress on and on and on...
If you agree with it so much....
GO LIVE IN CUBA
Cuba is a Marxist-Leninist that LOVES when people from Capitalist societies go over and SPEND MONEY THERE...
Just look over the links I posted... but you won't...
@gimmethedetails The fact that from your quotation you suggest that "Gov should not be using force to Take from one to give to another" makes clear that you don't understand the quotation which has nothing to do with government. If you have a problem with the quotation itself, explain what it is, don't mischaracterize it.
@gimmethedetails Simply put, do you not believe that people should contribute to society to the best of his or her ability? If not, why not? Do you believe that people should consume more than they need? If so, why? And how is this anti-freedom or anti-progress?
"It is not the responsibility of anyone there to try to convert or convince anyone" ???
Look at the signs most of these people are carrying. Its all about trying to convert and convince. Union signs, Marxist.ca signs good grief already...
@gimmethedetails The signs were signs of solidarity. What is holding up a Union sign supposed to convince someone of? How does that convert someone? Look, not even the speaker below is making such a ridiculous assertion as this. He claims they were plenty of signs but no one trying to convince him. So what is it? Why don't you two get your story straight on just what bullshit angle you will take to try and critique the protest.
The first advocating genocide is a good one as I have been showing in other posts.
Mao, Stalin, Hitler (national socialist), Pol Pot and all the other leaders of Marx theory didn't just make up genocide.
There has been no exception to any of these Marxist leaders they all dished out genocide to one degree or another. Which I have been showing you were they got their Genocidal beliefs it comes straight from Marxist theory.
@OxAO SInce he never advocated genocide, we can put that aside. Moreover, Mao, Stalin, HItler and Pol Pot are not working within the Marx tradition at all, so that point also collapses. The fact that you would bring up Hitler is enough to suggest that you are not interested in being honest. Of course, you give the name of his party because you realize that you can't actually name any actions that would suggest that Hitler was in any way a socialist.
" We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions."
There is a fairly good video that is streaming on Netflix called
"Nietzsche and the Nazis" it is a lecture about where Hitler got his beliefs.
He did a fair job with the video other he didn't point out about the national Reich Church which persecuted Christians and all other religions and the Jews were considered money changers but other then that he was good.
@OxAO Well, if it left you believing that Hitler was a socialist then it was simply made by dedicated liars and intellectual charlatans or simply people who are not aware of the historical record. Did you not bother to verify the claims it made?
@OxAO Furthermore, if you are opposed to non-existent advocations of genocide, then you must really be opposed to George Washington who not only advocated genocide but also policies that attempt to enact genocide and was, to some degree, successful.
Everything about Hitler was a Socialist from taking Fascism from Mussolini whom wrote for the Marxist journal L'Avvenire del Lavoratore. Using the swastika which was originally which was originally from the Socialist party of the Soviet Union and the Socialist party of the US both used it before Hitler.
@OxAO Socialism is putting the means of production into the hands of the workers. Period. Did Hitler do that? No. In fact, he widely strengthened the ownership class. He's the exact opposite of a socialist, which is why you can't name a single socialist thing he did.
@JGuildersleeve In fact, Hitler was in many ways, a kind of capitalist's dream come true for a while, which is why the US State Department referred to Hitler as a moderate all the way up to 1937.
@OxAO Your definition cribbed from Wikipedia is meaningless and, in fact, wrong. I would suggest looking at the primary material. Also, price controls!? Nixon instituted price controls - was he a socialist? More over, "all production" was NOT "completely controlled by the state". That's a flat out lie. The Nazis were overwhelmingly pro-big business. The Nazis broke unions, lowered wages, abolished overtime pay, decreased business taxes and increased business subsidies. A capitalist's dream.
@JGuildersleeve In fact, the reason why US corporations invested heavily in Nazi, Germany was precisely because of its pro-consumerist stance. Not only were corporations investing in Germany throughout the 30s, but the US State Department was widely in favour of Hitler's policies, referring to him as a moderate up until 1937.
said, "Nazis broke unions (true for the collective state), lowered wages(true collective state control pay), abolished overtime pay (true for the collective state), decreased business taxes (false statement look below) and increased business subsidies(false statement look below)
October 16, 1934 the Nazi's removed the business tax exemptions. From August 27, 1936 they raised business tax 5% every year. The Nazi's also raised taxes on individual income tax to 55%
@OxAO Furthermore, your history is quite mistaken. The swastika was not "originally from the Socialist party of the Soviet Union". It was however used in Iceland and Ireland before Hitler used it.
@OxAO Hahaha. You can't be expecting to be taken seriously, are you? You said "was originally from the Socialist party of the Soviet Union". Your 5000 ruble banknote nowhere near suggests that the symbol originates with the Socialist party. In fact, the symbol was in wide circulation throughout Europe at the time, as I said. It was used as a symbol in Finland and Ireland. Even then, the symbols origins go back as far as the Mauryan Empire.
@OxAO More over, putting aside the fact that the symbol was in wide circulation in Europe, even before the Soviets put it on a bill, the reason why Hitler chose the symbol had nothing to do with Russia. Rather, the swastika shape was rooted in German history, playing a crucial part in Germanic antiquity. Therefore, it served a particular nationalistic purpose for a party that was bent on proving its own national supremacy. That's why it was used.
@OxAO Finally, even if we were to suspend all rationality and accept the entirely false premise that Hitler was using some socialist symbol, the point would still be trivial and entirely meaningless. You're not a socialist if you happen to use a particular shape. You're a socialist if you believe in putting workers in control over the means of production. Period. The fact that you are trying to dwell on this symbol is just blowing smoke.
@JGuildersleeve In fact, economic historians like Germà Bel have noted that Nazi, Germany was unique amongst Western countries post-Depression for systematically RE-PRIVATIZING firms throughout the 30s. Bel notes that "Privatization in Nazi Germany was also unique in transferring to private hands the delivery of public services previously provided by government."
Gildersleeve, you asked me why I was there. One of the main reasons was I was there was to hear first hand, about the protest. I have my opinions and definitely wanted to hear the " protests" opinion. We got to the park and stood around. That's why I said "BORING, BORING, BORING" and then one of you told me to "Leave". I replied back, " tell me something, convert me". The group still remained quiet. It wasn't because I wanted attention, I wanted your THOUGHTS & OPINIONS !!!!
@whynot9333 The protest wasn't an attempt to covert anyone. This wasn't a Mission. It was a sign of solidarity and an attempt to demonstrate how there is a large opposition to corporate oligarchy and neo-feudalism. It is not the responsibility of anyone there to try to convert or convince anyone, let alone a disruptive person who shouts "BORING"! through a megaphone like a six year old.
Furthermore, if your primary reason to be there was to hear about the protest, then why bring a sign that said Karl Marx is wrong. That is evidence enough that you came in with a preconceived idea of what the protests were about. Given that, your claim is simply hogwash.
@ Gildersleeve... drown out? LOL, I had to scream out " BORING, BORING, BORING" on my megaphone at St James park to get you guys to say something !!!! We marched to the park and stood under a tree for 20 minutes !!!! ( what, did you think this was Clayquot Sound?) You guys don't even know how to protest. You had different groups chanting different chants. Even when you were chanting the same chant, you were off beat.. You couldn't even chant " we are the 99%" properly. LOL !!!!!
@whynot9333 So in other words you were trying to drown people out. You certainly need to get your story straight. First you say you were being silenced. Now you are saying that you had to scream out "BORING" repeatedly before someone would pay you attention. By your very description, you were not interested in discoursing, you were interested in being disruptive. The consequence of this is an attempt to maintain the status quo's monopoly of information. You should be ashamed.
@whynot9333 I'm afraid too, that you are simply continuing to evade the very real issues that I am bringing up (and continuing to let your mischaracterization of Marx's point stand) by instead reverting to trivial critiques of the chanting abilities of the protestors. If you actually had a credible valid point, you would discuss it, rather than revert to such meaningless, schoolyard responses.
Guildersleeve. You may have not uttered Corporate Greed, BUT it is the backbone to your protest!!!! LOL. Btw, this is CANADA !!!! LOL. Did you read any of the signs your fellow protesters were carrying? did your hear the chants?
@whynot9333 Well, first of all, you were the one who gave me the Bill Gates foundation as evidence and I responded to that. Second, the Occupy Toronto protest was a solidarity protest with Occupy Wall Street. More over, regardless of whether this is Canada, we still live under the same economic system and it is a system that is widely controlled by US interests.
@whynot9333 Furthermore, corporate greed is not the backbone of the protest. Corporate oligarchy and neo-feudalism is, and that's an entirely more significant and substantive issue. But I understand that it would be difficult to see, if you behaved as you did here, which was essentially an effort to drown out an often unheard point of view.
@whynot9333 Why are you avoiding what I'm saying and making up things that I say instead. I haven't once uttered the phrase corporate greed. Instead, I gave a very real case of corporate fraudulence which is an inevitable consequence a de-regulated system that has turned banks into hedge funds. Are you actually going to deal with my claims or go off in some lala land where you are capable of responding.
@whynot9333 Furthermore, are you now going to remove your charge about Marx since I made it clear that you divorced the quotation from its context or are you going to continue to let your wilful manipulation of evidence stand?
@whynot9333 And if you want to talk about corporations giving back, you should be aware of the law precedence in the United States (Dodge v. Ford) that ruled that a corporation must be beholden to profit at the expense of community or employees.
@Lallar3n What an absurd straw man construction. When you are prepared to sit at the grown ups table and actually engage with the points raised by this protest, we'll be waiting for you.
Our government bailed out the auto makers. The auto makers employ how many people in Canada? Now the government can collect income tax. What about all the tertiary economy that is derived from the big bad corporate automakers? Tell the coffee shop owners and the pub owners in Oshawa, that the government should let Corporations sink.
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BTW how do you feel about Harper wanting to spy on you without a warrant, now?
BoredomCorner 2 weeks ago
this guy is insane. what the hell.....
klaun 2 months ago
lol this guy rules!
soultosq 2 months ago
watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0
7CATALYST25 2 months ago
lol "MY OPINIOOON!"
He has the right to voice his opinion but he needs to work on articulation and volume control. I and fyi:
Marxism = analysis of capitalism
Communism = vague utopian concept that is extremely idealistic (to put it charitably)
(therefore; one can be a marxist-sympathizer (and recognize the flaws of capital accumulation without advocating for centralized-totalitarian government and economy.
Know the difference; don't make an ass out of yourself.
7CATALYST25 2 months ago
He is telling him if he wants to protest something different, go over there.
Everyone has the right to promotion/protest.
Here is my two cents, centralized government is evil/corruptible. It tramples peoples rights.
I think strong communities headed by people of purpose is the next evolution of government.
I am a community-ist.
Far too long we have promoted the rights of the many and greater good philosophies.
These will one by one sink us all.
Individual rights are the greater good.
gtechie 3 months ago
bless this man. the occupy movement is a mass of zombies who ignore history and know absolutely nothing about how politics work in reality.
RevelationMedia777 3 months ago
They aren't silencing him they are trying to tell him what they are about, this guy was getting people all worked up about nothing, and use of loudspeakers was trying to be kept to a minimum because sooner or later everyone is going to be running aorund with a megaphone screaming at eachother.
danageplane 3 months ago
I was there, and seen this man. I did not see the person trying to stop him, but if I had, I would have confronted him. No one has the right to stop anyone's voice in this movement, that's exactly what I am standing up against. I want our governments to create their own currency, and return power to the people. Not to supress us even further with social programs, or mutilate people in the name of equality. Pyramid schemes are in every aspect of our lives, people who don't mind, are at the top.
Tzara86 3 months ago
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call it like you see it bro
scorpioblade2012 3 months ago
Even Karl Marx was not a Marxist. He was a brilliant man who's ideas were warped in a terrible way.
jsgcalgary 3 months ago
There is definitely a hidden message in all this. After all, we have to be careful not to throw out the Humans, only to be later ruled by Pigs - put into Animal Farm metaphors, that is.
derfowvayer 3 months ago
Funny, I filmed the same marshall pestering a different protester. Nice vid, I agree that proteters supressing protesters is wierd.
PintoPonyProductions 3 months ago 5
Karl Marx was right...
aikfanat 3 months ago
@aikfanat Yes, Karl Marx was indeed right, it's very easy to manipulate and control the masses, i totally agree.
TorontoBoi 3 months ago
Go my man. These IDIOTS are all for free speech as long as you express their opinion. Thank you for posting this my friend. It exposes these people for what they really are ; They love to blanket themselves in the cloth of right to protest and freedom of speech BUT God forbid someone else exercises those same rights.
SuperTRINISH 3 months ago
God you guys are pathetic. I walked by these demonstrations when I was on my way to work like any productive human would.
blazinhomo 3 months ago
THIS GUY IS MY HERO! FUCKING HILARIOUS! Buddy if you're out there message me, we'll have some drinks, go down to Occupy Toronto and tell them fractional reserve banking is awesome!
GeorgiaTheJungle 4 months ago
Capitalism doesn't work much better, have a look around the word... it has never worked for most of humanity, and it ain't even working the United States anymore. We are wasteful, polluted, and getting poorer by the day.
Canada used to have it right, strict government regulation, Crown corporations... a mixed economy, high import tarrifs, and strongly democratic workplaces (i.e. unions) is a good balance IMO.
djalexrai 4 months ago
@dispersal This ain't capitalism! This is Corporatism!
makemap 3 months ago
"the wall came down" to which someone asked "is that a good thing?"
That's the most ignorant thing I've heard all day.
robvollman 4 months ago
This guy is awesome. socialists always try to silence people who actually know what they're talking about.
Plozen 4 months ago
Also... somebody don't have to put people's voice as "communism". Since this man said everybody should have right to speek. Then the people who occupy also have their right and their reason. Marxism is just a tool and way thek think it might be work. If trhere is no Marxism, there aways will be other idea come out and fixed the ir action. western society has twisted marxism and communism for a long time.
MrMomingqimiao 4 months ago
This guy looks and sounds drunk but it's still awesome none the less. Karl Marx is wrong. The people at Occupy who think that he was right should hear this and maybe have a discussion with him.
GenerationWhyMe 4 months ago
they're not trying to silence him, they're trying to tell him the movement isn't promoting communism -- he's getting all worked up for nothing.
sanjoie1 4 months ago
@sanjoie1 Then have a look at the Carnival of the Commie Crazies Vid I shot the same day, chock full o' marxist nuts.
blazingcatfur 4 months ago 3
@blazingcatfur Unfortunately, I have spoken to many people who are promoting Marxism, Socialism and Communism. I believe I have only spoken to one moderate person. One guy I interviewed wants a $20/hr minimum wage and a free house.
moonraven3 3 months ago
@blazingcatfur
You are spot on there, we are having the same trouble in the UK.
mynewschannel 2 months ago
@sanjoie1 skip to 2:07 , what does the guy's sign say?
skcusderf 4 months ago
@sanjoie1
This whole thing was started by Adbusters. a collection of Communists/Marxists/"Anarchists" and anti-authority figures in Vancouver, BC.
jblackrupert 4 months ago
@sanjoie1
He is not saying anything about communism. He is stating that Karl Marx is wrong.
Communism and Fascism are both based on the teachings of Karl Marx (why do you think the Nazi's called themselves the National Socialist Party). One went left and the other went right, both ended up in the same place. A dictatorial police state!
This same state is appearing in Canada, United States and the UK!
mynewschannel 2 months ago
@sanjoie1 who the fuck are they to tell him what to protest?
xandertroy13 2 months ago
Wow, did you film this?
newton2013 4 months ago
badass video, thx for uploading
DarkKnightNomeD 4 months ago
There has never been a true communist nation so to say it works or doesn't work is impossible. I truly believe however that every single citizen of this nation should be guaranteed food,shelter,medical care and education. Obviously I'm not saying every-one regardless of employment or unemployment should be equal, but rather that every-one should have the necessities of life and equal opportunity. Only by investing in our people rather than our banks can we prosper.
RedSkiesAwaitUs 4 months ago
What an idiot. From where did he get the idea that the protesters are calling for communism?
ZennLa13 4 months ago
Lol thats our awesome country ftw ... mind you Id be annoyed by having a loud speaker blasting in my ear and not even being able to hear what the guys saying ... But freedom is everyones right, so I wouldnt feel right about complaining about it i I was there.
Tellmetojinxit 4 months ago
*chuckle* When people's social norms are challenged...mua ha ha :3
Inannawhimsey 4 months ago
They were trying to talk to him peacefully. Everyone has a right to protest, but not everyone has a right to blare a loudspeaker in people's ears. That is incredibly annoying. Yes the man has a right to speak, no he does not have a right to do it in a loudspeaker.
Also, if he wants people to take his points seriously, maybe he should listen to their comments, instead of yelling "KARL MARX WAS WRONG!!!" every time they try to speak calmly.
It looked like more of a drunk vs stoned debate.
moeburn 4 months ago
Marxism and Keynesian Economics = Ideological insanity
maximunoutlaw32 4 months ago
In a not very far future we will see salaries as a form of slavery. people will work owning their businesses.. sharing the profits (if money still exists) Slavery was also hard to eliminate... they were good reasons to maintain it. even the slaves believe in those reasons... The evolution of societies is socialism. you will can start your own entrepreneurship, but instead of paying a salary you will contract people giving a share.
sicoticosandro 4 months ago
@JGuildersleeve Has kicked so many asses in discussions with ignorants here. if english was my native tongue i would help him designoranting the ignorants... They just haven't read communist manifesto (the primary source) never so they repeat cliche phrases like idiots for the rest of their lives. The thing here is the vision of society. A society were the strong ones eat the weak ones, or a society based on cooperation. My vision is that evolution in humans will lead to cooperation.
sicoticosandro 4 months ago
Perfect example of "free speech" in the Canadian Province.
gary23902003 4 months ago
@2112murphy If this guy is from China, they have crony capitalism there now, bordering on fascism (a one party dictatorship which still encourages free enterprise). Just look at the lead paint toy issue among a thousand other similar issues. They could have only happened in a county with 0 environmental and labour regulations, where greed and capitalism is allowed to run amok.
meerkat1954 4 months ago
Haha, that dude is a hero! These protesters with their populist slogans are either uneducated and/or detached from reality. They're just pissed that somebody's better at making money than they are.
0prahTV 4 months ago
Much like the guy in the video, you guys seem to misunderstand what this movement is about to such an astonishing degree, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. You read 2-10 online articles and blog posts from major media or reactionary blogs(and trust them for some reason), and decide that this group of people who don't know each other have all decided that they want Stalin and only Stalin?. Cause it's the only alternative.?calm down and think about it a bit more. ever heard of Scandinavia?
uckerfrank 4 months ago
The look of bewilderment on the faces of all those wanna-be radical white people was priceless.
They think they own and speak for minorities and got served a big helping of truth from a real freedom fighter.
Steny 4 months ago
Something you may want to note: certain communist sects believe that the socialist stage has NEVER been achieved. Those sects include Trotsky, Marx, and Lenin.
MexicanGnomes 4 months ago
anarchy?
ehohkay 4 months ago
@2112murphy But you understand that that's an asinine way to reach a conclusion, right. In fact, there's a term for such a logical fallacy, argumentum ad verecundium. The appropriate thing to do is to take no one's word but to verify both claims for the validity. The fact that 4 people should like your stunning intellectual fallacy is telling of how willing people are to hear anything that happens to confirm their already held assumptions.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@JGuildersleeve you are using Ridicule and appeal to authority, which are major Fallacies. You are strong with Logic but since you are presenting weak arguments for Socialism, mainly, it has never worked for the people truly, it is an oppressive system in which the wealth is redistributed in extraordinary ways, supplemented by a fascist regime. Marxism's endgame is a horizontal society without much innovation,incentive, nor freedom. A constitutional republic is the most free system to date
matsutakneatche 4 months ago
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@matsutakneatche You're accusing me of using ridicule? Here's what some people have said to me on this thread: "Dude put the bong down"; "GO LIVE IN CUBA"; "crazy Stalinist"; "There are a few, cranks like yourself"; "Get off the victim track kid and get a life"; "You are even entitled to pretend to live in an alternate reality of your own making as you obviously do, even if, as in your case, it was cooked up in 'baking social justice cupcakes 101'"
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
Now that's a fraction of what people have said. It seems to me, if you care about people using ridicule, you would critique the people who have had the monopoly over it in this thread, which is not me, as I have demonstrated. I can only assume that you either have not read the thread, or simply don't care about ridicule if it happens to support your ideological bias.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
Perhaps too you can show me one example where I have made an appeal to authority. All I have done is suggested that if you are going to critique Marxism you should understand what Marx actually said. That's not an appeal to authority, that is precisely what one does in a rational argument. And what Marx said is precisely the opposite of what you claim. It is not "a horizontal society" nor "an oppressive system". Rather it is a society with absolutely NO political power. That's a fact.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@matsutakneatche Socialism, as far as I can tell, hasn't really happened in too many places - at least not by Marx's standards. One excellent example where it DID happen historically was in Catalonia, Spain. And, in fact, it was quite successful - so successful in fact that it was destroyed by Soviet Russia.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@JGuildersleeve
You might want to read Homage to Catalonia George Orwell who was there on the POUM side and was shot through the throat by a sniper with street fighting all the time. Prisons were maxed out. It sounds like a hell hole to me
OxAO 4 months ago
Marxism and Communism DOES WORK.....if you're at the top of their power pyramid. But, just like with any other form of government, if you're the other 99%, you're f--ked.
TorontoBoi 4 months ago 14
@TorontoBoi There is no power pyramid in Marxism. As Marx notes, in a functioning society, there would be NO political power. In fact, it's only capitalism that demands a power hierachy and a system of owners and slaves.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@JGuildersleeve LMAO, if their is a Marxist government, a Socialist government, a Capitalistic government, THERE IS A PYRAMID OF POWER. Don't be naive in thinking "only capitalism is flawed, but THIS TIME we'll get it right, i promise." LOL.
Power corrupts. Absolutely power corrupts, absolutely.
TorontoBoi 4 months ago 2
@TorontoBoi Do you understand how socialism works? There is no such thing as a socialist government - that's a contradiction in terms. Again, I repeat, as Marx suggests, a properly function society has no political power. Socialism is simply workers controlling the means of production. So, no, there is no pyramid of power in a socialist system but this only becomes clear when you understand what socialism is.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@JGuildersleeve
said, "Socialism is simply workers controlling the means of production"
You are incorrect:
Socialism:
"Any of various economic and political theories advocating collective OR governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods"
merriam-webster com/dictionary/socialism
OxAO 4 months ago
@JGuildersleeve and do YOU understand how to IMPLEMENT socialistic ideas into society???
You see, i've actually studied all the 'isms, and they all sound GREAT, on paper. Who wouldn't want free education / health care / personal massages, you name it? So JGuildersleeve, WHO is going to implement this? You, me, everybody? Who decides this? Ultimately the decision will once again be made by a select FEW to control the fates of the MASSES. Bam! Socialism just failed, again, and again...
TorontoBoi 4 months ago
@TorontoBoi What do you mean, this time we'll get it right? The Russian Revolution was widely understood at the time by mainstream marxists as a right wing deviation from Marxism. Cuba has been the recipient of a ongoing, relentless terrorist campaign carried out by the world's largest superpower since the early 60s. It's hard to get a functioning society going when that's hapening.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@JGuildersleeve oh and i have another shocker that'll make your head explode, because you're clearly uninformed and disconnected from reality. I can see you're clearly anti-capitalism, well i have devastating news for you pal. Are you ready for this? THERE IS NO SUCH THING as "TOO BIG TO FAIL" in a free market, Capitalistic system!!! Capitalism is already DEAD. Please open your eyes and behold your utopian socialist society! Oooooh, it's not pretty, is it Guildersleeve?
TorontoBoi 4 months ago
@TorontoBoi Ironic how they are protesting to be the 99%, and thats how many end up getting the boot on their face in a Marxist society. Unless you're one of the very few elite of 'the Party', INSOC of course.
truthnexus 4 months ago
@TorontoBoi
actually, In marxism and true communism, there is no government in the world and also there is no private ownership. People don't need the commodity economy system. They feed themselfs by get what they need for live
So that's many countries people think are "communism" call themselves "Socialism Countries".In Marx's idea, human's society's path is: feudalism-capitalism-socialism and communism. However, socialism has been proved worked.
MrMomingqimiao 4 months ago
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@TorontoBoi Watch Real footage of Real banks causing Real problems at UmotionS.com.
See the trailer at my channel with the link in it’s description.
DedmanUmotionS 4 months ago
@TorontoBoi Yes! Finally, someone understand this. Those who try to promote equality over liberty will receive neither equality or liberty.
moonraven3 3 months ago 4
@moonraven3 it's sad that most sheeple can't even see this painfully obvious "pyramid structure" of power that is in practically every single form of government. This is the Illuminati system of control, and it's a brilliant system IF you're at the top of the pyramid while the masses below are holding all the weight, falsely believing they are free, are given the false illusion of choice, and are kept in ignorance of every single political decision.
TorontoBoi 3 months ago
what should be obvious from occupy earth is that capitalism is not perfect either. maybe our biggest problem is thinking that any ism will work. instead lets work together. fight together for each other. not fight against each other.
RebornHammer 4 months ago
that guy is acting insane.. the message should not be about what does not work, we should be talking of what does work. we don't have to all agree on what works we have to agree to work with each other. participatory democracy.
RebornHammer 4 months ago
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@RebornHammer
said, "we don't have to all agree on what works we have to agree to work with each other."
If the pencil is broken it will not write. All the working together you want will not make the pencil write until it is sharpened.
OxAO 4 months ago
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Once again same ol that always silences the people! It’s not us vs. them. Jew vs. gentile, Muslim vs West. Communist vs. capitalists. It is us vs us. It has always been us vs us. The longer we don’t accept this the longer they win.
Hopeinhumanity 4 months ago
So funny at the very end a guy tries to come over and say "that wasn't socialism". How often have we heard that refrain? Oh, it just wasn't practiced properly! Give me a break. Thing is, capitalists say the same thing. We could say capitalism hasn't been fully practiced either. But imperfect capitalism has done a lot more good than imperfect socialism.
phil8888 4 months ago
@phil8888
said, "imperfect capitalism has done a lot more good than imperfect socialism."
That was worth repeating
OxAO 4 months ago
@OxAO Like say, in Nicaragua and Haiti, the poorest countries in the hemisphere? Or perhaps you're thinking of the scorched earth campaign style of capitalism in Guatemala? Maybe the dictatorial capitalism of Iran from the 50s to the 70s is more your style? Then, of course, there's the murderous Pinochet's capitalism. Or how about the good that the United States has done as the leading terrorist state in the world?
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@JGuildersleeve
You have a very distorted sense of history.
You calling George Washington a terrorist is clear proof of that.
Pinochet was ordered to overthrow Allende by the courts and a coalition in the House of Deputies, since Allende’s party only had maybe 35 percent of the seats in the House of Deputies
If Allende Marxist ideas came to power Chili would have been another North Korea or Cuba today.
OxAO 4 months ago
@phil8888 Well, actually, that's not quite right. Socialism is workers controlling the means of production so if you have a situation where that's not happening or, say, the state own the means of production, then what you have isn't socialism, certainly not by Marx's standards. There has been full practiced capitalism but in the third world where it has been forced violently on countries. In the industrialized world, their economic systems have been strongly protected.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@2112murphy
Exactly. You got here two minutes before I did.
237KMT 4 months ago
I like this guy.
wheelzwheela 4 months ago
Thank god for capitalism- every person has the equal right to pursue success. a system that honours human achievement. A system that requires hard to work to be successful. Because that's the way the world works, you know. Money doesn't just fall from the sky, or in this case, from the government. Wake up.
dohbro02 4 months ago
What exactly was Karl Marx wrong about? He theorized that capitalism would destroy itself through the polarization of wealth in society, and that seems to be exactly what we are seeing.
It might surprise people to learn that Marx wrote very little about how a socialist society should actually be organized. How we build a democracy which operates in the interests of the working class is entirely up to us.
timberwulfzero 4 months ago
This is the MOST STUPID alleged protest in all my life. No originality and just shouting a bunch of borrowed canned slogans. No questions or workable suggestions; just a bunch of meaningless slogans. At least in Quebec they talk about construction corruption.
BTW: can the people that claim to care about Canada, please pick up the tons of fucking trash the protestors are generating and throwing in our streets.
KyoNingyo 4 months ago
Left wing Right wing I"m sick of that shit. I want a system that works better. For all of humanity. Every Ecosystem on earth is in decline. Over 1billion on earth living in poverty. We have the resources and technology to fix it. That is the facts. Whats left wing or right wing about that? Our current system will never fix those problems. In fact it will make it worse. Everyone knows that don't they?
666enoch666 4 months ago
@666enoch666 Every ecosystem on earth is not in decline . You really need to get out in the world and see things for yourself kid and quit listening to wacked out left wingers .
hanksnow82 4 months ago
@hanksnow82 I'm no kid. Do you know what I'm even talking about? Science. Facts. Are scientist left winger? Can you explain your comment to me? Maybe I'm the one who doesn't understand you?
666enoch666 4 months ago
@666enoch666 If you're not a kid quit making juvenile assinine statements like "Every ecosystem is in decline."
hanksnow82 4 months ago
@hanksnow82 You have the internet. You should start looking at the state of our world. You have all the information at your fingertips. Every ecosystem is in decline. You will not find any Scientific source that says otherwise. Maybe your hearing this for the first time. Sorry man. The earth will not be able to sustain the human race if we keep going down our current destructive path. That is a scientific fact. There is nothing left wing or right wing about that.
666enoch666 4 months ago
@666enoch666
said, "Every ecosystem is in decline."
Is that why forests are expanding and more dense?
OxAO 4 months ago
@666enoch666 I live on a large lake in Ontario thats eco system is in better shape then it has been in over 50 years . Sorry but people are catching on to you eco terrorists and your bull shit .
hanksnow82 4 months ago
@hanksnow82 That's perfectly meaningless anecdotal evidence.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@666enoch666 Right, nothing left or right wing about this until they introduce the notion of carbon taxes. People are licking their lips at how they can blame all of the earth's climate on humans, and outright ignoring that the end of ecosystems and birth of new ones is something that happened time and time again on our planet. Outright ignoring the power of the solar activity, polar shifts etc
AutomatedForexRobots 4 months ago
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JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
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@AutomatedForexRobots And you're outright ignoring the overwhelming consensus of the experts in the field (you know, people who are in a position to know) which suggests uncontroversially that humans have played a significant role in climate change.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
those marshalls are retards i have no respect for them, they think their the only ones there and act like they protest harder than others, their fucking anoying too
hurasane 4 months ago
@hurasane Yes, but not as annoying as a guy who goes to a protest with assumptions about what it's about and then shouts out "Boring" repeatedly.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
marx was wrong. and so are we. our grandchildren will be forced to learn from our mistakes.
RubiconJohn 4 months ago
God bless this man.
2011CaptainCharisma 4 months ago
Hmmmm and things are going so well in capitalist Europe these Days!!! Has nothing to do with the style of government, it has to do with the leaders, themselves. You people just don't listen, Kinda like in the French Revolution. Its quiet right now but won't be long!!!
BrentChippy 4 months ago
@Thunderwavia - agreed!
Here is a vid of the same marshall noodling around.
watch?v=9rR2-viz8BI
gimmethedetails 4 months ago
Good for him, so many ignorant leftist brats being fools in public harrassing him
Thunderwavia 4 months ago
@Thunderwavia Yes, me musn't let these leftist brats believe they have the right to assemble without being disrupted.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
Hey Comrades
Read this...
A perfect story of Marxism vs. the Free Market
renewamerica(dot)com/columns/campbell/070723
gimmethedetails 4 months ago
@gimmethedetails Does it explain how there has never been such a thing as a free market capitalist society except in the third world where it was violently shoved down their throats? I would guess that in an article that isn't peer reviewed and therefore does not have to be accurate, it doesn't.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@JGuildersleeve
"In a socialist system, a person entirely controls their labour, not their owner." ??? WTF
Tell that to people that lived in the Soviet Union or people that live in Europe now...
The European Soviet as Gorbachev calls it. Hows that working out?
This is my last post... over and out comrade!
Hope you find the Animal Farm your looking for.
gimmethedetails 4 months ago
@gimmethedetails "Tell that to people that lived in the Soviet Union" - which is why I have been saying since yesterday that the Soviet Union was not a socialist system, certainly not by Marxist standards. The same thing is true of Europe today.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@JGuildersleeve
You have read about Marx but you think Mao and Stalin didn't run their political systems based on Marx, Lennon etc... Socialism and Communism??
So how does everyone contribute?? you still have not answered that question.
"The premise is that if people have control over what they produce, they will be happy to do it" - Thats called the FREE MARKET SYSTEM, when you have control over what you do YOU are FREE.
gimmethedetails 4 months ago
@gimmethedetails I know they didn't run their systems on Marx, since Marx suggested that there shouldn't even be a Mao or a Stalin. Rather, Marx suggested there should be no political power whatsoever. What Stalin and Mao did was in perfect contradiction to what Marx was suggesting.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@gimmethedetails More over, I suggest you actually examine how economic systems work. Free market capitalism does not make the labourer free, which is why 18th and 19th Century conservatives, including people like Adam Smith and Abraham Lincoln, opposed free market capitalism. Socialism means one thing - the worker has control over what they produce. That's all socialism is. So if you're in favour of that, then you're in favour of socialism, since that's its definition and that's what Marx says
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
Furthermore, Lenin wasn't even a Marxist. This is historically document. The Russian Marxists at the time like Antonie Pannekoek, Emma Goldman, and Rosa Luxemburg were critical of the Bolsheviks for being a right wing deviation of the socialist movement which is why Lenin referred to people within the Marxist movement as infantile leftists. This is all historically documented, like I said.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
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"shamefully adopt the rhetorical trick of shifting the goalpost to another point in order to avoid owning up to the fact that you glaringly mischaracterized the quotation. I agree that the 10 planks would be problematic if that were the GOAL of communism "
whatever, just watch the links i posted. This is getting silly.
gimmethedetails 4 months ago
So how do you get everyone to contribute?
Who are these awesome people that are going to facilitate it? Even a fine Marxist like you I would not trust to do that.
If someone does not want to contribute, what do you do with them?
Its anti freedom because using force to get anyone to do anything is ANTI their FREEDOM... get it.
IF people are robbed of the fruits of their own labour... They stop trying... Look at how welfare works.
How Welfare Promotes Failure
watch?v=qVLKlMayNoQ
gimmethedetails 4 months ago
@gimmethedetails First of all, I'm not a Marxist. I'm simply a person who has read Marx, unlike you and I am simply a person who believes that people should be accountable for their statements rather than be allowed to blither out tiresome cliches without evidence, again unlike you. You don't "get everyone to contribute" - it's not a system of capitalism where people are forced to work at jobs, doing work they have no personal investment in.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@gimmethedetails The premise is that if people have control over what they produce, they will be happy to do it - a premise that has not only been proven in societies that have had such a system (Catalonia Spain for instance) but also by, say, scientists who work 80 weeks without getting paid for it.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@gimmethedetails Furthermore, I'm certainly not advocating using force. You are the one who seems to be supporting capitalism whose history is having been shoved violently down people's throats. Furthermore, a socialist system does not rob anyone of the fruits of their labour. In fact, it's precisely the opposite. In a socialist system, a person entirely controls their labour, not their owner. They are not, what Abraham Lincoln referred to as wage slaves.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@JGuildersleeve
"makes clear that you don't understand the quotation which has nothing to do with government" ?????
Dude put the bong down and read the 10 planks of communism.
Nothing to do with government??? wtf
You arguing for the sake of arguing...
gimmethedetails 4 months ago
@gimmethedetails Good, nice character assassination. Explain to me what the quotation has to do with government rather than shamefully adopt the rhetorical trick of shifting the goalpost to another point in order to avoid owning up to the fact that you glaringly mischaracterized the quotation. I agree that the 10 planks would be problematic if that were the GOAL of communism rather than steps that would "outstrip themselves." For Marx, the ten planks are to be overcome, just like capitalism.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@JGuildersleeve
"To each according to their need and from each according to his ability" is WRONG and Gov should not be using force to Take from one to give to another... period.
It's anti freedom, anti progress on and on and on...
If you agree with it so much....
GO LIVE IN CUBA
Cuba is a Marxist-Leninist that LOVES when people from Capitalist societies go over and SPEND MONEY THERE...
Just look over the links I posted... but you won't...
gimmethedetails 4 months ago
@gimmethedetails The fact that from your quotation you suggest that "Gov should not be using force to Take from one to give to another" makes clear that you don't understand the quotation which has nothing to do with government. If you have a problem with the quotation itself, explain what it is, don't mischaracterize it.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@gimmethedetails Simply put, do you not believe that people should contribute to society to the best of his or her ability? If not, why not? Do you believe that people should consume more than they need? If so, why? And how is this anti-freedom or anti-progress?
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@JGuildersleeve
"It is not the responsibility of anyone there to try to convert or convince anyone" ???
Look at the signs most of these people are carrying. Its all about trying to convert and convince. Union signs, Marxist.ca signs good grief already...
gimmethedetails 4 months ago
@gimmethedetails The signs were signs of solidarity. What is holding up a Union sign supposed to convince someone of? How does that convert someone? Look, not even the speaker below is making such a ridiculous assertion as this. He claims they were plenty of signs but no one trying to convince him. So what is it? Why don't you two get your story straight on just what bullshit angle you will take to try and critique the protest.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
Holy crap the conversation here is getting stale...
Karl Marx WAS wrong and the "crazy" guy in the video IS right. The point of the video is the Marshall trying to be a referee, f him.
What below links to see how people who can articulate an argument properly instead.
Walter Williams and Milton Friedman on Unions
watch?v=U6vrteO-6xw&feature=relmfu
Thomas Sowell on How Welfare Promotes Failure
watch?v=qVLKlMayNoQ
Milton Friedman Versus A Socialist
watch?v=FOMI0ORGH44
gimmethedetails 4 months ago
@gimmethedetails What was Karl Marx wrong about? Please provide a citation to his work and explain how it is wrong.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@JGuildersleeve
said, "What was Karl Marx wrong about?"
The first advocating genocide is a good one as I have been showing in other posts.
Mao, Stalin, Hitler (national socialist), Pol Pot and all the other leaders of Marx theory didn't just make up genocide.
There has been no exception to any of these Marxist leaders they all dished out genocide to one degree or another. Which I have been showing you were they got their Genocidal beliefs it comes straight from Marxist theory.
OxAO 4 months ago
@OxAO SInce he never advocated genocide, we can put that aside. Moreover, Mao, Stalin, HItler and Pol Pot are not working within the Marx tradition at all, so that point also collapses. The fact that you would bring up Hitler is enough to suggest that you are not interested in being honest. Of course, you give the name of his party because you realize that you can't actually name any actions that would suggest that Hitler was in any way a socialist.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
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@JGuildersleeve
" We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions."
-- Adolf Hitler
OxAO 4 months ago
@JGuildersleeve
There is a fairly good video that is streaming on Netflix called
"Nietzsche and the Nazis" it is a lecture about where Hitler got his beliefs.
He did a fair job with the video other he didn't point out about the national Reich Church which persecuted Christians and all other religions and the Jews were considered money changers but other then that he was good.
OxAO 4 months ago
@OxAO Well, if it left you believing that Hitler was a socialist then it was simply made by dedicated liars and intellectual charlatans or simply people who are not aware of the historical record. Did you not bother to verify the claims it made?
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
Comment removed
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
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@OxAO Furthermore, if you are opposed to non-existent advocations of genocide, then you must really be opposed to George Washington who not only advocated genocide but also policies that attempt to enact genocide and was, to some degree, successful.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@OxAO
Everything about Hitler was a Socialist from taking Fascism from Mussolini whom wrote for the Marxist journal L'Avvenire del Lavoratore. Using the swastika which was originally which was originally from the Socialist party of the Soviet Union and the Socialist party of the US both used it before Hitler.
OxAO 4 months ago
@OxAO Socialism is putting the means of production into the hands of the workers. Period. Did Hitler do that? No. In fact, he widely strengthened the ownership class. He's the exact opposite of a socialist, which is why you can't name a single socialist thing he did.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@JGuildersleeve In fact, Hitler was in many ways, a kind of capitalist's dream come true for a while, which is why the US State Department referred to Hitler as a moderate all the way up to 1937.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@JGuildersleeve
Socialism is the means of production are either state owned or commonly owned and controlled cooperatively
Yes Hitler did that. They had price controls as well as how many units can be made of all products.
all productions was completely controlled by the state.
OxAO 4 months ago
@OxAO Your definition cribbed from Wikipedia is meaningless and, in fact, wrong. I would suggest looking at the primary material. Also, price controls!? Nixon instituted price controls - was he a socialist? More over, "all production" was NOT "completely controlled by the state". That's a flat out lie. The Nazis were overwhelmingly pro-big business. The Nazis broke unions, lowered wages, abolished overtime pay, decreased business taxes and increased business subsidies. A capitalist's dream.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@JGuildersleeve In fact, the reason why US corporations invested heavily in Nazi, Germany was precisely because of its pro-consumerist stance. Not only were corporations investing in Germany throughout the 30s, but the US State Department was widely in favour of Hitler's policies, referring to him as a moderate up until 1937.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@JGuildersleeve
said, "Nazis broke unions (true for the collective state), lowered wages(true collective state control pay), abolished overtime pay (true for the collective state), decreased business taxes (false statement look below) and increased business subsidies(false statement look below)
October 16, 1934 the Nazi's removed the business tax exemptions. From August 27, 1936 they raised business tax 5% every year. The Nazi's also raised taxes on individual income tax to 55%
OxAO 4 months ago
@JGuildersleeve
Some very select large companies early on did get benefits but they were favoritism for backing the Nazis.
But I assume you were referring to business in general not a select few?
OxAO 4 months ago
@OxAO Furthermore, your history is quite mistaken. The swastika was not "originally from the Socialist party of the Soviet Union". It was however used in Iceland and Ireland before Hitler used it.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@JGuildersleeve
said, "The swastika was not "originally from the Socialist party of the Soviet Union""
Take a look at a "1918 soviet 5000 ruble banknote" Just do a Google search on it.
OxAO 4 months ago
@OxAO Hahaha. You can't be expecting to be taken seriously, are you? You said "was originally from the Socialist party of the Soviet Union". Your 5000 ruble banknote nowhere near suggests that the symbol originates with the Socialist party. In fact, the symbol was in wide circulation throughout Europe at the time, as I said. It was used as a symbol in Finland and Ireland. Even then, the symbols origins go back as far as the Mauryan Empire.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@OxAO More over, putting aside the fact that the symbol was in wide circulation in Europe, even before the Soviets put it on a bill, the reason why Hitler chose the symbol had nothing to do with Russia. Rather, the swastika shape was rooted in German history, playing a crucial part in Germanic antiquity. Therefore, it served a particular nationalistic purpose for a party that was bent on proving its own national supremacy. That's why it was used.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@OxAO Finally, even if we were to suspend all rationality and accept the entirely false premise that Hitler was using some socialist symbol, the point would still be trivial and entirely meaningless. You're not a socialist if you happen to use a particular shape. You're a socialist if you believe in putting workers in control over the means of production. Period. The fact that you are trying to dwell on this symbol is just blowing smoke.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@JGuildersleeve In fact, economic historians like Germà Bel have noted that Nazi, Germany was unique amongst Western countries post-Depression for systematically RE-PRIVATIZING firms throughout the 30s. Bel notes that "Privatization in Nazi Germany was also unique in transferring to private hands the delivery of public services previously provided by government."
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
Gildersleeve, you asked me why I was there. One of the main reasons was I was there was to hear first hand, about the protest. I have my opinions and definitely wanted to hear the " protests" opinion. We got to the park and stood around. That's why I said "BORING, BORING, BORING" and then one of you told me to "Leave". I replied back, " tell me something, convert me". The group still remained quiet. It wasn't because I wanted attention, I wanted your THOUGHTS & OPINIONS !!!!
whynot9333 4 months ago
@whynot9333 The protest wasn't an attempt to covert anyone. This wasn't a Mission. It was a sign of solidarity and an attempt to demonstrate how there is a large opposition to corporate oligarchy and neo-feudalism. It is not the responsibility of anyone there to try to convert or convince anyone, let alone a disruptive person who shouts "BORING"! through a megaphone like a six year old.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
Furthermore, if your primary reason to be there was to hear about the protest, then why bring a sign that said Karl Marx is wrong. That is evidence enough that you came in with a preconceived idea of what the protests were about. Given that, your claim is simply hogwash.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@ Gildersleeve... drown out? LOL, I had to scream out " BORING, BORING, BORING" on my megaphone at St James park to get you guys to say something !!!! We marched to the park and stood under a tree for 20 minutes !!!! ( what, did you think this was Clayquot Sound?) You guys don't even know how to protest. You had different groups chanting different chants. Even when you were chanting the same chant, you were off beat.. You couldn't even chant " we are the 99%" properly. LOL !!!!!
whynot9333 4 months ago
@whynot9333 So in other words you were trying to drown people out. You certainly need to get your story straight. First you say you were being silenced. Now you are saying that you had to scream out "BORING" repeatedly before someone would pay you attention. By your very description, you were not interested in discoursing, you were interested in being disruptive. The consequence of this is an attempt to maintain the status quo's monopoly of information. You should be ashamed.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@whynot9333 I'm afraid too, that you are simply continuing to evade the very real issues that I am bringing up (and continuing to let your mischaracterization of Marx's point stand) by instead reverting to trivial critiques of the chanting abilities of the protestors. If you actually had a credible valid point, you would discuss it, rather than revert to such meaningless, schoolyard responses.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
Guildersleeve. You may have not uttered Corporate Greed, BUT it is the backbone to your protest!!!! LOL. Btw, this is CANADA !!!! LOL. Did you read any of the signs your fellow protesters were carrying? did your hear the chants?
whynot9333 4 months ago
@whynot9333 Well, first of all, you were the one who gave me the Bill Gates foundation as evidence and I responded to that. Second, the Occupy Toronto protest was a solidarity protest with Occupy Wall Street. More over, regardless of whether this is Canada, we still live under the same economic system and it is a system that is widely controlled by US interests.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@whynot9333 Furthermore, corporate greed is not the backbone of the protest. Corporate oligarchy and neo-feudalism is, and that's an entirely more significant and substantive issue. But I understand that it would be difficult to see, if you behaved as you did here, which was essentially an effort to drown out an often unheard point of view.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@jGuildersleeve, Carnegie, Rockefeller etc, etc. Dubbed as Captains of Industry, also dubbed as Robber Barons.
Times have changed. Bill Gates has his foundation. Great foundation, talk about giving back. Corporate greed huh?
whynot9333 4 months ago
@whynot9333 Why are you avoiding what I'm saying and making up things that I say instead. I haven't once uttered the phrase corporate greed. Instead, I gave a very real case of corporate fraudulence which is an inevitable consequence a de-regulated system that has turned banks into hedge funds. Are you actually going to deal with my claims or go off in some lala land where you are capable of responding.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@whynot9333 Furthermore, are you now going to remove your charge about Marx since I made it clear that you divorced the quotation from its context or are you going to continue to let your wilful manipulation of evidence stand?
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
@whynot9333 And if you want to talk about corporations giving back, you should be aware of the law precedence in the United States (Dodge v. Ford) that ruled that a corporation must be beholden to profit at the expense of community or employees.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
Soooo proud of you!!!!! You ever met Andrew Breitbart yet??? I bet you two would get along!
lookingforawinner 4 months ago
The crazy Stalinists want mankind to be the slaves of the state. The ones who dont do as the state wants must be killed.
Lallar3n 4 months ago
@Lallar3n What an absurd straw man construction. When you are prepared to sit at the grown ups table and actually engage with the points raised by this protest, we'll be waiting for you.
JGuildersleeve 4 months ago
Our government bailed out the auto makers. The auto makers employ how many people in Canada? Now the government can collect income tax. What about all the tertiary economy that is derived from the big bad corporate automakers? Tell the coffee shop owners and the pub owners in Oshawa, that the government should let Corporations sink.
whynot9333 4 months ago