This was better than Irina's programme. So much better artistically, but I guess she had to be a casualty in this part of the competition because Michelle's long program was just a little bit better, and to try and get the result almost right, they had to let Irina beat her. I feel like this is an instance where the COP would work in favour of both Maria and Michelle.
@WickedProductions100 I think your assessment of the judges thought process is very wrong. First of all I dont think they ever were wanting Kwan to win. The marks they gave her were very low for the performance. Irina and Maria both just did so poorly they had no choice. They certainly wouldnt go out of their way to help her win. Secondly this wasnt a good skatel, and in the judges eyes it was clearly beaten by Irina. Irina was closer to beating Kwan in the LP than Maria was Irina.
@russianskatingfan I dunno about that though; this skate looked significantly less improvised than Irina's and it had more polish, in my opinion. I'm clearly not a skating judge, so they obviously found more fault with it than I did, but I think they got the placement of Maria wrong here. I think Irina was third in the free skate.
@WickedProductions100 either way they certainly didnt manipulate the marks to help Kwan win. By the marks they gave Kwan they were clearly wanting Maria and Irina to go 1-2 if they skated well (or if just Irina skated well with Maria's shortprogram result). Irina's marks were MUCH higher than Maria's, and she in fact almost beat Michelle in the long program to win the gold outright. So they just felt, rightly or wrongly, Irinas skate was much better than Marias even though both had mistakes.
@russianskatingfan I certainly can see it, but I think Maria just skated a better overall free skate, even with the mistake because her choreography is so much better. I find it much more musically inclined than Irina's program, though Irina skated some of her best in this time period.
I am amazed that people think that this was a weak period of ladies figure skating. I strongly disagree. This was the best era. Look at where we are now, I don't care anything about the ladies/girls that are competing nowadays. I am much more interested in men's figure skating these days.
I loved the women's 90's and the early 2000's, and Maria is probably my fave skater ever. The only weak thing about this era was Kwan who shouldn't have won a medal of any kind at worlds/olympics.
@Jontor11 "The only weak thing about this era was Kwan who shouldn't have won a medal of any at at worlds/olympics."
This statement IS truly ludicrous. Michelle Kwan never won a World or Olympic medal with less than 5 clean triples. She landed 7 triples 3 times out of five for her 5 World titles (six for the other two). She landed 7 triples at the '98 Olympics and 5 at the 2002 Olympics. Her versatile artistry is unmatched. Try to be a little more objective with your views....
@Karosanyo Hmmm... when you mention all those triples, you just included all the Flutzes (a 0.2-0.3 deduction at the time - which never happened with Kwan).
IMO, Kwan didn't have the technique at all. But don't get me wrong, I did enjoy Kwan's artistry, but the technique - nah. And I actually blame her coach for that. F Carroll taught her the cheap way out. Sure, he got the job done, and got the medals, but it was never good skating.
And as I said before, we have to agree on disagreeing.
@Karosanyo In a way I find it unappropriate to discuss this Kwan issue here on this Butyrskaya vid. So, Karosanyo, check out my comments on Kwan's 1999 Worlds SP. I had some strong issues about that performance, and you will probably not like them. But at least there we could have a Kwan-discussion.
i always likened Maria Butryskaya and Sarah Hughes skating to each other. they have the jumps and spins, etc. but they somehow seem too stiff and gawky to really make it look good. no offense, they just are the ones who get lucky and win when everyone else skates poorly. i like them, and feel sorry (well, sarah did win olympic gold so not TOO sorry, but it was a stroke of luck) no longevity. kinda awkward looking.
I LOVE her combination spin at the end with her arms clasp, while changing positions. However, she should have done her lutz combination in this (and all) of her LP's.
alright. if you like her i personally judge you... watch michelle, irina, tara, or even sasha... true artistry and attack in their performances. nothing compares to the ice there was before the bull shit new scoring system. that fucked it all up. i guess you had to be watching skating in the 90's and early 2000's and back to know what i mean.
I've been rewatching some of her programs recently, as I've come to appreciate Slutskaya much more not in retrospect. Wondered if that would happen for Butyrskaya, but I'm sorry, this woman is NOT graceful. She is just unbelievably awkward on the ice. Stiff knees, bad posture, and her jumps all look like she's landing flat on her blade. They're downright painful to watch. Will never get the hype over her.
Oh, and yes, I do remove figures from my mind when judging competitions from the past. The skating I care about is the kind that is about performance. The skating that has actually made any impact on the World is a mixture of athleticism and artistry. That is what makes it special.
Compulsory figures do not fit the bill. They are a craft - not a sport or performing art.
People revisit Janet Lynn when they want a display of beautiful skating, not Beatrix Schuba's compulsory figures.
Had she done her free skate from Europeans she would have defended her title particularly considering she only needed to finish atleast 2nd in the free skate to win.
I for one am glad Mk won. She gave the best performance this night...a whole lot better then Maria, and Irina...between maria and Irina, i am not sure. Maria's program wasn't very difficult and she lacked confidence in it. Irina had a more difficult program a few more mistakes. But the difficulty probably made that up compared to Maria's skate., and i liked Irina;s Presentation better. I didn't agree with the 5.9s for Irina..
Sorry but just removing the qualifying round just because you dont like it is stupid. It existed, that is just the way it is. Would you also remove figures from the 70s and 80s and make results based on that since you didnt like that they were there too, LOL!
Anyway Vanessa just isnt that good a skater. Her one world bronze was a fluke. I would never place her over any of those other 3 if they skated even decently. Dick Button felt she was overmarked and didnt even deserve to beat Hughes.
A great many things have existed in history. Slavery, for example. That doesn't make it correct.
The Olympics during this time period did not have a qualifying round. It should not have existed at Worlds and for me it is a worthless thing when looking at the Championships. Skaters purposefully would water down their programs/performances in qualifying in order to save for the REAL long program. That's not real competition.
Vanessa was a good skater. She had excellent artistry.
I did not find Vanessa had "excellent artistry". Yes I will admit her Legends of Fall program was a very nice program but unfortunately she was a very stiff and jerky skater, and her basic skating wasnt the best. Dick Button like I said even though she was overmarked at these Worlds and should have finished 5th behind Sarah Hughes, and Dick knows more about figure skating than either of us I would imagine.
I almost agree with your placings. These would be mine though.
Michelle- 3rd SP, 1st LP- 2.5 points, 1st overall
Maria- 1st SP, 3rd LP- 3.5 points, 2nd overall
Vanessa- 4th SP, 2nd LP- 4.0 points, 3rd overall
Irina- 2nd SP, 4th LP- 5.0 points, 4th overall
I put Maria 3rd in the LP over Irina since the 2nd mark is the tiebreaker and even though she didnt have a good skate here her artistry is still much better than her teammate.
Yeah, that's very fair. The most important part of my opinion (aside from Kwan absolutely deserving to win Gold) is that Vanessa should have been 2nd in the LP. I can see reasoning in not actually placing her 2nd overall, even if I personally think her LP was strong enough to merit it.
Her performance at the Euros was so much better. She didn't really have her heart in it here. It's too bad, cause she was so close to another 2nd world.
She did one of the most cheated Salchow's I've ever seen in this program. If she hadn't cheated it by a whole half of a revolution, she probably wouldn't have leaned so much and been able to land it. Her triple loop was very good, though. That was her strongest/favorite jump :P
for me they are, do you have a proble with that??
wtaching the Americans(exept Alissa), Asians and other europeans is boring...Figure Skating without Russia its like a football championships without Brazil....boring....look at how people is not interested in figure skating since the Russians are gone
that is the way it is for me and I don´t see any problem with it, I prefer Russians over any other skaters and I´ll always prefer the Russian style over the rest.
It's clear you hate skaters of Asian-descent. ie: you hate Michelle Kwan, Mao Asada, Yu Na Kim, Miki Ando, Shizuka Arakawa.... I have to say, the rest of the world will disagree with you. BTW-People ARE interested in watching f.s.-just not Russians because they are losing. I do enjoy Russian pairs-just not singles unless your Plushenko.
Maria should have defended her title. She should have definitely beaten Irina in the long program which would have been enough for her to hold 1st overall. She was robbed of her 2nd world title by Irina's overscored long program.
I don't agree. Maria was fortunate to win the 99 Worlds with Kwan imploding everywhere that year. She isn't technically sound or confident. She lands some of her jumps on an inside edge and usually has very stiff landings (whether she wobbled her landings or not depended on what the weather was like on a given day). She had potential for artistry, but she was really devoid of personality (contrary to Kwan/Slutskaya). I do love her, though. She was the Madonna of Figure Skating, no doubt!!!
What you think should have happened at the 99 Worlds means nothing. At these Worlds Maria won the short program, Irina was 2nd, Michelle 3rd. Those resutls were correct. If Maria had been placed 2nd in the long program as she should have been she would have won the gold overall over both Michelle and Irina. So she was robbed of winning the gold again here.
Everyone knows that going into a competition at World Champion is a huge + for that skater. Maria benefited from that bonus, and that's how she was able to win the Short. Kwan got the same treatment - MANY times. Maria wouldn't have placed second in the long because both Slutskaya and Kwan were better skaters than she was. Slutskaya lost the short on her combination (scratchy landing), and Butyrskaya won it fairly, with her difficult and elegant program. She was not better than them, tho.
@hairbrush81 Whether or not Maria should have defended her title I am glad she didnt. What a black mark on this already weak era in womens skating it would have been for such a gangly stork with mediocre technical and artistic abilities to win 2 World titles. Maybe the judges realized this too and that is why when she made some mistakes they felt they had enough excuse to put her 3rd in the long behind both Kwan and Irina so she would nto win overall.
Overall, Michelle has a better line, edge quality, and speed over Maria. In addition, her spirals were subpar at best. Her nerves were also a major factor- at the 2002 Olympics, you could even see her shaking nervously while she was performing her short program. So sad.
Nonetheless, this Swan Lake performance was really nice- one of her better programs content-wise.
Michelle has a better line and edge quality than Maria? It would be right about Kwan vs.Slutskaya ,but not Maria - she does have the best basic skills and lines, being the most gracefull skater among ladies
A really beautiful performance.. and the triple jumps she did land here were really gorgeous, not stiff-kneed and shaky as they tended to be. Too bad about the errors on the two salchows, would've really liked to see her repeat her title.
I totally agree. Michele is a good skater, of course she is, but usually she based on her main opponents' failures on the final nights. The following year the very same happened - she won only because Slutskaya's free skate was a bit shaky whereas Butyrskaya was too far down after the short.
Butyrskaya's short in Nice should have been awarded one 6.0 at least for the second mark!
i don't think is fair to say that not only about Kwan but about every skater,i believe that every skater has earned their victories, they trained very hard, and to say that wouldn't be fair.For example: Sarah Hughes won her olympic gold medal just bcuz Michelle fell and so did Sasha?? Or because Irina was conservative and sloppy? I don't think so!! Or did Michelle win in 96' bcuz Chen made a mistake, no they both were perfect? What about 03'? Elena was perfect too, what about 98'? plz be nice!!
Actually Hughes did win her Olympic Gold because Michelle and Irina had their worst performances at a World level event in many years. Elena did all her jumps cleanly in 2003, but the rest of her skating is below novice level so not that hard to beat. In 96 pretty everyone agrees Chen was robbed. So what is your point?
i don't think is fair to say that not only about Kwan but about every skater,i believe that every skater has earned their victories, they trained very hard, and to say that wouldn't be fair.For example: Sarah Hughes won her olympic gold medal just bcuz Michelle fell and so did Sasha?? Or because Irina was conservative and sloppy? I don't think so!! Or did Michelle win in 96' bcuz Chen made a mistake, no they both were perfect? What about 03'? Elena was perfect too, what about 98'? plz be nice!!
@leonidasse Yes, Irina and Maria were propped up at the 2000-2001 Worlds (giving Kwan 5.6's for 7 triples with a triple-triple???). Kwan was a MUCH better skater than Irina and Maria (I find Maria very awkward looking on the ice). Irina's jumps were only bigger than Kwan's (everything else that Kwan did was better). Even if Irina and Maria were clean, I feel that Kwan should have beaten them... Kwan had to be perfect to win because they were ready to gift the title to those two...
@Karosanyo Funny. I feel the exact opposite. Even if Kwan was clean I always thought that Maria and Irina should have beaten her...
And...Maria and Irina had to be clean...because the judges were NOT ready to gift them the title. The judges always favoured Kwan...as she was American and brought the dollars with her...
@Jontor11 The judges always favoured Kwan? Did you even SEE what they did to her in 2004? Kwan ALWAYS had to skate her best at Worlds to win. (The only time that she didn't was in 1998, but she still had 6 triples and ther program was superior.) Irina and Maia should have beaten her? Irina's program WAS ATROCIOUS and Maria was so damn awkward looking on the ice. NOTHING that Maria did was better than Kwan. Irina's jumps were better than Kwan's when she was on but that's it. Kwan's TRV was ace.
@Jontor11 Oh, and you stating that the judges favoured Kwan because she was an American is ignorant BS! I don't know how anyone could think that Maria and Irina were superior skaters to Kwan. Kwan's performance at this Worlds was better than ALL of Irina's and Maria's performances put together, IMO. I feel that they were truly sloppy looking. Maria's program here was a hot mess (as was her dress). Kwan's jumps, artistry and speed was amazing here. NOTHING that they did could beat that.
@Karosanyo god you are such an over the top Kwan fanatic. While you are right Michelle deserved to win this Worlds you should stick to videos of your favorite rather than going on others insulting them . You already made a complete fool of yourself going on the Chen video from the 96 Worlds whining for all the Chen fans to agree with you Kwan deserved to win those Worlds, when most dont and wont ever. I bet you are that Kwan looney JNagarya under another name. Get a life.
@russianskatingfan Actually, you're the one that's making a fool out of yourself with these ignorant and stupid assumptions... You cannot have a mature conversation. Whining for all Chen fans to agree? How? That accusation is false. Unlike you, I have the understanding of diverse opinions. I just stated my opinion. Others can disagree and I'm fine with that. I have every right to express my opinions about other skaters. I am just not a fan of Maria and Irina....
@Karosanyo 5 posts in a row when you are on the video of a skater you dont even seem to like. LOL! You are a loser. I cant believe I found a poster more annoying than those freaks russianskatingfan and getrealandsee.
@serenakicksass No, what's "annoying" are these lame personal attacks.... I said what I had to say about Maria's performance and moved on. These boards are for all kinds of different perspectives. Another poster on here attacked me and I responded. It would have been ONE post, but these boards on this site are limited. I like to fully elaborate my views. Unlike those others posters, I don't make off-the-cuff and ignorant statements about these skaters and their fans.... That's really juvenile.
@russianskatingfan Don't generalize me as a "blind Kwan fanatic". That's a really juvenile and lame statement by you. I am always objective with my views on here. I thought that Tara deserved to win the gold at the '98 Olympics and I now think that Irina deserved to win the SP in SLC. I don't just go on others skaters videos and "insult them". That statement is ludicrious and ignorant. I am "JNagarya"? That's another ignorant and stupid assumption by you....
@russianskatingfan Why would anyone want different usernames? That's just silly. Maybe all of these accusations from you to me is just projection... Telling me to get a life? Take a step back and look at yourself.
@Karosanyo Irina has better jumps, spins, and speed than Kwan. Her footwork is atleast on par. So you are wrong that all Irina can do better is jumps. Of course no reasoning with a blind Kwan fanatic.
@russianskatingfan I am "wrong" when I say that all Irina can do is better jumps? Because YOU say so? You just don't understand diverse opinions... Yes, Irina's biellman spins were more diificult, but I always found that position ugly. Better speed? Michelle Kwan had great speed and covered the ice so well when she was on. I have seen both in person. I have never seen Irina give a faster performance than Kwan's TRV and Aranjuez at Worlds...
Irina had great speed going into her jumps but would slow down after that (she always had a lot of resting spots in her LPs). I feel that Kwan had better footwork (check out her footwork in TFB, Rach '98 and TFB). Another insult by you to me? That's very juvenile.
If all the women had skated cleanly the final results would be this year:
1)Butyrskaya
2)Slutskaya
3)Kwan
This particular panel loved Maria's artistry and programs this year and would have given her the nod over Irina based on that. Irina would have won the tech. mark easily but lost on the 2nd. Michelle did a great skate but was so lucky both Russian faltered.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
I don't think so, did you hear the commentator, Butyrskaya had the weakest technicall program planned! Even they had skated perfectly, the long program would have been won by Michelle! And the final result would have been:
1) Butyrskaya
2) Kwan
3) Slutskaya
And that's only Michelle needed someone else to beat Maria in order to win, that night, even Slutskaya, who always seem very upset about her not winnin' gold, said Michelle totally deserved it.
You are an idiot. A shaky performance from Irina nearly beat Michelle in the long, so how on earth was Michelle going to beat a perfect Irina when she barely beat a subpar Irina. If Irina had done a perfect performance Kwan would have lost to Irina easily. Maria was too far over Kwan after the short. So the best Kwan could have done was 3rd if Maria and Irina both skated cleanly. Michelle was lucky both screwed up so she was able to win. The only question is which of Irina or Maria would win.
I guess you cant stand someone telling you the truth, especialy when it is something not in favor of your beloved Kwan. quirotmutolafan is exactly right. Irina had some major mistakes, only 6 triples and no triple-triple and still nearly beat Michelle. If Irina had done a 7th triples and even 1 triple-triple Michelle had no chance. A clean Maria would have also easily beaten Michelle like she did in the short. The judges did not give Michelle the marks she did planning to put her in first.
She would have won gold with a clean skate. She only had to be 2nd in the LP to win overall. Anyway even her SP scores were higher then Kwan's LP scores, and a skater does not drop scores from the SP to LP hardly ever if they go clean. She would have won the LP too with a clean skate.
If she had placed 2nd in the free skate she still would've won the title since Kwan was 3rd in the short program, but since she was 3rd in the free skate behind Kwan and Slutskaya, Butyrskaya fell to third. It was a 5-4 split with the judges between her and Vanessa Gusmeroli for 3rd place in the free skate, but I think it was correct for Butyrskaya to have placed 3rd over Gusmeroli.
I think Maria would of lost this championship even with a clean performance. Her jumps planned were not as difficult and even if she would of landed the salcows, Kwan's triple-triple was more difficult and Kwan had the 2nd lutz. I really don't think this performance was not that bad.
She did not have to win the LP. She only had to be 2nd in the LP to win overall. Irina had mistakes, so of course with a clean skate she would be atleast 2nd in the LP and win overall ahead of Kwan. I think she might have won the LP too despite what you say, but she certainly would have won overall.
Wow! she was 1st after the short program, and went all the way down to 3rd place in the Long. That's very unfortunate since she was leading in the short.
Yes, she had the option of sl, circular or serpentine. And it's supposed to utilize the full ice surface. Sometimes that didn't happen and in '99 it was only a .1 deduction.
Maria's skating is just awkward to me.
beshnola 4 months ago
This was a mess. No combinations and the program was slow.
demisDINOS 6 months ago
This was better than Irina's programme. So much better artistically, but I guess she had to be a casualty in this part of the competition because Michelle's long program was just a little bit better, and to try and get the result almost right, they had to let Irina beat her. I feel like this is an instance where the COP would work in favour of both Maria and Michelle.
WickedProductions100 6 months ago
@WickedProductions100 I think your assessment of the judges thought process is very wrong. First of all I dont think they ever were wanting Kwan to win. The marks they gave her were very low for the performance. Irina and Maria both just did so poorly they had no choice. They certainly wouldnt go out of their way to help her win. Secondly this wasnt a good skatel, and in the judges eyes it was clearly beaten by Irina. Irina was closer to beating Kwan in the LP than Maria was Irina.
russianskatingfan 4 months ago
@russianskatingfan I dunno about that though; this skate looked significantly less improvised than Irina's and it had more polish, in my opinion. I'm clearly not a skating judge, so they obviously found more fault with it than I did, but I think they got the placement of Maria wrong here. I think Irina was third in the free skate.
WickedProductions100 4 months ago
@WickedProductions100 either way they certainly didnt manipulate the marks to help Kwan win. By the marks they gave Kwan they were clearly wanting Maria and Irina to go 1-2 if they skated well (or if just Irina skated well with Maria's shortprogram result). Irina's marks were MUCH higher than Maria's, and she in fact almost beat Michelle in the long program to win the gold outright. So they just felt, rightly or wrongly, Irinas skate was much better than Marias even though both had mistakes.
russianskatingfan 4 months ago
@russianskatingfan I certainly can see it, but I think Maria just skated a better overall free skate, even with the mistake because her choreography is so much better. I find it much more musically inclined than Irina's program, though Irina skated some of her best in this time period.
WickedProductions100 4 months ago
@WickedProductions100 no as the commentator stated Maria's program is technically less difficult than the others.
beshnola 4 months ago
I am amazed that people think that this was a weak period of ladies figure skating. I strongly disagree. This was the best era. Look at where we are now, I don't care anything about the ladies/girls that are competing nowadays. I am much more interested in men's figure skating these days.
I loved the women's 90's and the early 2000's, and Maria is probably my fave skater ever. The only weak thing about this era was Kwan who shouldn't have won a medal of any kind at worlds/olympics.
Jontor11 6 months ago
@Jontor11 "The only weak thing about this era was Kwan who shouldn't have won a medal of any at at worlds/olympics."
This statement IS truly ludicrous. Michelle Kwan never won a World or Olympic medal with less than 5 clean triples. She landed 7 triples 3 times out of five for her 5 World titles (six for the other two). She landed 7 triples at the '98 Olympics and 5 at the 2002 Olympics. Her versatile artistry is unmatched. Try to be a little more objective with your views....
Karosanyo 6 months ago
@Karosanyo Hmmm... when you mention all those triples, you just included all the Flutzes (a 0.2-0.3 deduction at the time - which never happened with Kwan).
IMO, Kwan didn't have the technique at all. But don't get me wrong, I did enjoy Kwan's artistry, but the technique - nah. And I actually blame her coach for that. F Carroll taught her the cheap way out. Sure, he got the job done, and got the medals, but it was never good skating.
And as I said before, we have to agree on disagreeing.
Jontor11 6 months ago
@Karosanyo In a way I find it unappropriate to discuss this Kwan issue here on this Butyrskaya vid. So, Karosanyo, check out my comments on Kwan's 1999 Worlds SP. I had some strong issues about that performance, and you will probably not like them. But at least there we could have a Kwan-discussion.
Jontor11 6 months ago
i always likened Maria Butryskaya and Sarah Hughes skating to each other. they have the jumps and spins, etc. but they somehow seem too stiff and gawky to really make it look good. no offense, they just are the ones who get lucky and win when everyone else skates poorly. i like them, and feel sorry (well, sarah did win olympic gold so not TOO sorry, but it was a stroke of luck) no longevity. kinda awkward looking.
looneybun1 6 months ago
I LOVE her combination spin at the end with her arms clasp, while changing positions. However, she should have done her lutz combination in this (and all) of her LP's.
MTVMANN 1 year ago
alright. if you like her i personally judge you... watch michelle, irina, tara, or even sasha... true artistry and attack in their performances. nothing compares to the ice there was before the bull shit new scoring system. that fucked it all up. i guess you had to be watching skating in the 90's and early 2000's and back to know what i mean.
08dressageGal 1 year ago
Oh heaven!
I very hade this piece of USA shit who never shut her cunt-o-mouth while skating...
I wish her to birn in hell!
viksa83 1 year ago
@viksa83: Just for the record, this is a Canadian broadcast, NOT American, so for once we can't be blamed for something.
mlc2005 1 year ago
her most difficult jump is soooo lame. anybody can do wayy better. i think her outfit sort of distracted her
Huanghmeric 1 year ago
You fool. (full).
RomanseroT 1 year ago
I've been rewatching some of her programs recently, as I've come to appreciate Slutskaya much more not in retrospect. Wondered if that would happen for Butyrskaya, but I'm sorry, this woman is NOT graceful. She is just unbelievably awkward on the ice. Stiff knees, bad posture, and her jumps all look like she's landing flat on her blade. They're downright painful to watch. Will never get the hype over her.
xtracex77 2 years ago
Wow... ditto with all you said... she is incredibly stiff . I never understand why people refer to her as elegant?
scavo2003 2 years ago
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RomanseroT 1 year ago
You'd be hard pressed to find a triple lutz as beautiful as the one in this program!
xmykeyx 2 years ago 2
Do you have CTV coverage of Kwan's and Slutskaya's lps
VintageSkate09 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Oh, and yes, I do remove figures from my mind when judging competitions from the past. The skating I care about is the kind that is about performance. The skating that has actually made any impact on the World is a mixture of athleticism and artistry. That is what makes it special.
Compulsory figures do not fit the bill. They are a craft - not a sport or performing art.
People revisit Janet Lynn when they want a display of beautiful skating, not Beatrix Schuba's compulsory figures.
Zuranthium 2 years ago 2
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Zuranthium 2 years ago
Had she done her free skate from Europeans she would have defended her title particularly considering she only needed to finish atleast 2nd in the free skate to win.
ants2876 2 years ago
I for one am glad Mk won. She gave the best performance this night...a whole lot better then Maria, and Irina...between maria and Irina, i am not sure. Maria's program wasn't very difficult and she lacked confidence in it. Irina had a more difficult program a few more mistakes. But the difficulty probably made that up compared to Maria's skate., and i liked Irina;s Presentation better. I didn't agree with the 5.9s for Irina..
yorishiku2525 2 years ago
1. Michelle Kwan
2. Vanessa Gusmeroli
3. Irina Slutskaya
4. Maria Butyrskaya
Should have been the placements.
Zuranthium 2 years ago
Maria won the short program and clearly deserved to win the short progarm so even if she was 4th in the long she wouldnt have been 4th overall.
hairbrush81 2 years ago
Maria's SP wasn't considerably better than the other 3 women's, IMO. She deserved 1st in that segment but it wasn't a big lead.
The ranking system of 6.0 was dumb, but even if you do rank the SP's and LP's:
Michelle - 2nd SP, 1st LP ---> 2 points, 1st overall
Vanessa - 4th SP, 2nd LP ---> 4 points, 2nd overall
Irina - 3rd SP, 3rd LP ---> 4.5 points, 3rd overall
Maria - 1st SP, 4th LP ---> 4.5 points, 4th overall
Qualifying round carries no weight in my mind. It was removed for a good reason.
Zuranthium 2 years ago
Sorry but just removing the qualifying round just because you dont like it is stupid. It existed, that is just the way it is. Would you also remove figures from the 70s and 80s and make results based on that since you didnt like that they were there too, LOL!
Anyway Vanessa just isnt that good a skater. Her one world bronze was a fluke. I would never place her over any of those other 3 if they skated even decently. Dick Button felt she was overmarked and didnt even deserve to beat Hughes.
hairbrush81 2 years ago
A great many things have existed in history. Slavery, for example. That doesn't make it correct.
The Olympics during this time period did not have a qualifying round. It should not have existed at Worlds and for me it is a worthless thing when looking at the Championships. Skaters purposefully would water down their programs/performances in qualifying in order to save for the REAL long program. That's not real competition.
Vanessa was a good skater. She had excellent artistry.
Zuranthium 2 years ago
I did not find Vanessa had "excellent artistry". Yes I will admit her Legends of Fall program was a very nice program but unfortunately she was a very stiff and jerky skater, and her basic skating wasnt the best. Dick Button like I said even though she was overmarked at these Worlds and should have finished 5th behind Sarah Hughes, and Dick knows more about figure skating than either of us I would imagine.
hairbrush81 2 years ago
Good for Dick. He wouldn't have said that if Sarah Hughes was the French skater and Gusmeroli was the American.
Zuranthium 2 years ago
I almost agree with your placings. These would be mine though.
Michelle- 3rd SP, 1st LP- 2.5 points, 1st overall
Maria- 1st SP, 3rd LP- 3.5 points, 2nd overall
Vanessa- 4th SP, 2nd LP- 4.0 points, 3rd overall
Irina- 2nd SP, 4th LP- 5.0 points, 4th overall
I put Maria 3rd in the LP over Irina since the 2nd mark is the tiebreaker and even though she didnt have a good skate here her artistry is still much better than her teammate.
lambielkwanfan 2 years ago
Yeah, that's very fair. The most important part of my opinion (aside from Kwan absolutely deserving to win Gold) is that Vanessa should have been 2nd in the LP. I can see reasoning in not actually placing her 2nd overall, even if I personally think her LP was strong enough to merit it.
Zuranthium 2 years ago
Her performance at the Euros was so much better. She didn't really have her heart in it here. It's too bad, cause she was so close to another 2nd world.
jorje286 2 years ago
She did one of the most cheated Salchow's I've ever seen in this program. If she hadn't cheated it by a whole half of a revolution, she probably wouldn't have leaned so much and been able to land it. Her triple loop was very good, though. That was her strongest/favorite jump :P
GoBogi 3 years ago
Russian skaters are the best
tchachinafan 3 years ago 6
not in lady's figure skating
CarolineMaoYuna 3 years ago
for me they are, do you have a proble with that??
wtaching the Americans(exept Alissa), Asians and other europeans is boring...Figure Skating without Russia its like a football championships without Brazil....boring....look at how people is not interested in figure skating since the Russians are gone
tchachinafan 3 years ago
That's a rather prejudiced thing to say, don't you think? But what can we expect, from someone named TchachinaFan.
GoBogi 2 years ago
no I don´t think so.
that is the way it is for me and I don´t see any problem with it, I prefer Russians over any other skaters and I´ll always prefer the Russian style over the rest.
and what does my nickname has to do with it??
tchachinafan 2 years ago
It's clear you hate skaters of Asian-descent. ie: you hate Michelle Kwan, Mao Asada, Yu Na Kim, Miki Ando, Shizuka Arakawa.... I have to say, the rest of the world will disagree with you. BTW-People ARE interested in watching f.s.-just not Russians because they are losing. I do enjoy Russian pairs-just not singles unless your Plushenko.
reagoony 2 years ago
no I do not, I say most are boring, when did I say I hate them??
don´t put words in my mouth if you don´t know;)
ps: I like Kwan and Yu Na Kim very much, specially Yu Na Kim(the next Olympic Champion:)),
and the ratings in fs have decreased in the past few years, I know for sure that FS is not even showed anymore in latinamerica....
tchachinafan 2 years ago
Maria should have defended her title. She should have definitely beaten Irina in the long program which would have been enough for her to hold 1st overall. She was robbed of her 2nd world title by Irina's overscored long program.
hairbrush81 3 years ago 17
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I don't agree. Maria was fortunate to win the 99 Worlds with Kwan imploding everywhere that year. She isn't technically sound or confident. She lands some of her jumps on an inside edge and usually has very stiff landings (whether she wobbled her landings or not depended on what the weather was like on a given day). She had potential for artistry, but she was really devoid of personality (contrary to Kwan/Slutskaya). I do love her, though. She was the Madonna of Figure Skating, no doubt!!!
GoBogi 3 years ago
What you think should have happened at the 99 Worlds means nothing. At these Worlds Maria won the short program, Irina was 2nd, Michelle 3rd. Those resutls were correct. If Maria had been placed 2nd in the long program as she should have been she would have won the gold overall over both Michelle and Irina. So she was robbed of winning the gold again here.
raichmaneuvers 2 years ago 2
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Everyone knows that going into a competition at World Champion is a huge + for that skater. Maria benefited from that bonus, and that's how she was able to win the Short. Kwan got the same treatment - MANY times. Maria wouldn't have placed second in the long because both Slutskaya and Kwan were better skaters than she was. Slutskaya lost the short on her combination (scratchy landing), and Butyrskaya won it fairly, with her difficult and elegant program. She was not better than them, tho.
GoBogi 2 years ago
@hairbrush81 Whether or not Maria should have defended her title I am glad she didnt. What a black mark on this already weak era in womens skating it would have been for such a gangly stork with mediocre technical and artistic abilities to win 2 World titles. Maybe the judges realized this too and that is why when she made some mistakes they felt they had enough excuse to put her 3rd in the long behind both Kwan and Irina so she would nto win overall.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
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Overall, Michelle has a better line, edge quality, and speed over Maria. In addition, her spirals were subpar at best. Her nerves were also a major factor- at the 2002 Olympics, you could even see her shaking nervously while she was performing her short program. So sad.
Nonetheless, this Swan Lake performance was really nice- one of her better programs content-wise.
ShaefDawg 4 years ago
Michelle has a better line and edge quality than Maria? It would be right about Kwan vs.Slutskaya ,but not Maria - she does have the best basic skills and lines, being the most gracefull skater among ladies
hatula87 3 years ago 2
I agree. Maria was very underrated, especialy on the artistic side of skating.
kristirulesice 3 years ago 11
Maria has nice style. She does get a bit stiff sometimes though, especialy when nervous.
gayskatingfan 3 years ago 8
A really beautiful performance.. and the triple jumps she did land here were really gorgeous, not stiff-kneed and shaky as they tended to be. Too bad about the errors on the two salchows, would've really liked to see her repeat her title.
xmykeyx 4 years ago 3
I totally agree. Michele is a good skater, of course she is, but usually she based on her main opponents' failures on the final nights. The following year the very same happened - she won only because Slutskaya's free skate was a bit shaky whereas Butyrskaya was too far down after the short.
Butyrskaya's short in Nice should have been awarded one 6.0 at least for the second mark!
leonidasse 4 years ago 4
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i don't think is fair to say that not only about Kwan but about every skater,i believe that every skater has earned their victories, they trained very hard, and to say that wouldn't be fair.For example: Sarah Hughes won her olympic gold medal just bcuz Michelle fell and so did Sasha?? Or because Irina was conservative and sloppy? I don't think so!! Or did Michelle win in 96' bcuz Chen made a mistake, no they both were perfect? What about 03'? Elena was perfect too, what about 98'? plz be nice!!
sayalamar 3 years ago
Actually Hughes did win her Olympic Gold because Michelle and Irina had their worst performances at a World level event in many years. Elena did all her jumps cleanly in 2003, but the rest of her skating is below novice level so not that hard to beat. In 96 pretty everyone agrees Chen was robbed. So what is your point?
quirotmutolafan 3 years ago 8
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i don't think is fair to say that not only about Kwan but about every skater,i believe that every skater has earned their victories, they trained very hard, and to say that wouldn't be fair.For example: Sarah Hughes won her olympic gold medal just bcuz Michelle fell and so did Sasha?? Or because Irina was conservative and sloppy? I don't think so!! Or did Michelle win in 96' bcuz Chen made a mistake, no they both were perfect? What about 03'? Elena was perfect too, what about 98'? plz be nice!!
sayalamar 3 years ago
@leonidasse Yes, Irina and Maria were propped up at the 2000-2001 Worlds (giving Kwan 5.6's for 7 triples with a triple-triple???). Kwan was a MUCH better skater than Irina and Maria (I find Maria very awkward looking on the ice). Irina's jumps were only bigger than Kwan's (everything else that Kwan did was better). Even if Irina and Maria were clean, I feel that Kwan should have beaten them... Kwan had to be perfect to win because they were ready to gift the title to those two...
Karosanyo 9 months ago
@Karosanyo Funny. I feel the exact opposite. Even if Kwan was clean I always thought that Maria and Irina should have beaten her...
And...Maria and Irina had to be clean...because the judges were NOT ready to gift them the title. The judges always favoured Kwan...as she was American and brought the dollars with her...
Jontor11 6 months ago
@Jontor11 The judges always favoured Kwan? Did you even SEE what they did to her in 2004? Kwan ALWAYS had to skate her best at Worlds to win. (The only time that she didn't was in 1998, but she still had 6 triples and ther program was superior.) Irina and Maia should have beaten her? Irina's program WAS ATROCIOUS and Maria was so damn awkward looking on the ice. NOTHING that Maria did was better than Kwan. Irina's jumps were better than Kwan's when she was on but that's it. Kwan's TRV was ace.
Karosanyo 6 months ago
@Karosanyo OK, you obviously have a strong opinion about this, So do I. I guess we just have to agree on disagreeing on this subject.
Jontor11 6 months ago
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Karosanyo 6 months ago
@Jontor11 Oh, and you stating that the judges favoured Kwan because she was an American is ignorant BS! I don't know how anyone could think that Maria and Irina were superior skaters to Kwan. Kwan's performance at this Worlds was better than ALL of Irina's and Maria's performances put together, IMO. I feel that they were truly sloppy looking. Maria's program here was a hot mess (as was her dress). Kwan's jumps, artistry and speed was amazing here. NOTHING that they did could beat that.
Karosanyo 6 months ago
@Karosanyo god you are such an over the top Kwan fanatic. While you are right Michelle deserved to win this Worlds you should stick to videos of your favorite rather than going on others insulting them . You already made a complete fool of yourself going on the Chen video from the 96 Worlds whining for all the Chen fans to agree with you Kwan deserved to win those Worlds, when most dont and wont ever. I bet you are that Kwan looney JNagarya under another name. Get a life.
russianskatingfan 4 months ago
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Karosanyo 4 months ago
@russianskatingfan Actually, you're the one that's making a fool out of yourself with these ignorant and stupid assumptions... You cannot have a mature conversation. Whining for all Chen fans to agree? How? That accusation is false. Unlike you, I have the understanding of diverse opinions. I just stated my opinion. Others can disagree and I'm fine with that. I have every right to express my opinions about other skaters. I am just not a fan of Maria and Irina....
Karosanyo 4 months ago
@Karosanyo 5 posts in a row when you are on the video of a skater you dont even seem to like. LOL! You are a loser. I cant believe I found a poster more annoying than those freaks russianskatingfan and getrealandsee.
serenakicksass 4 months ago
@serenakicksass No, what's "annoying" are these lame personal attacks.... I said what I had to say about Maria's performance and moved on. These boards are for all kinds of different perspectives. Another poster on here attacked me and I responded. It would have been ONE post, but these boards on this site are limited. I like to fully elaborate my views. Unlike those others posters, I don't make off-the-cuff and ignorant statements about these skaters and their fans.... That's really juvenile.
Karosanyo 4 months ago
@russianskatingfan Don't generalize me as a "blind Kwan fanatic". That's a really juvenile and lame statement by you. I am always objective with my views on here. I thought that Tara deserved to win the gold at the '98 Olympics and I now think that Irina deserved to win the SP in SLC. I don't just go on others skaters videos and "insult them". That statement is ludicrious and ignorant. I am "JNagarya"? That's another ignorant and stupid assumption by you....
Karosanyo 4 months ago
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Karosanyo 4 months ago
@russianskatingfan Why would anyone want different usernames? That's just silly. Maybe all of these accusations from you to me is just projection... Telling me to get a life? Take a step back and look at yourself.
Karosanyo 4 months ago
@Karosanyo Irina has better jumps, spins, and speed than Kwan. Her footwork is atleast on par. So you are wrong that all Irina can do better is jumps. Of course no reasoning with a blind Kwan fanatic.
russianskatingfan 4 months ago
@russianskatingfan I am "wrong" when I say that all Irina can do is better jumps? Because YOU say so? You just don't understand diverse opinions... Yes, Irina's biellman spins were more diificult, but I always found that position ugly. Better speed? Michelle Kwan had great speed and covered the ice so well when she was on. I have seen both in person. I have never seen Irina give a faster performance than Kwan's TRV and Aranjuez at Worlds...
Karosanyo 4 months ago
Irina had great speed going into her jumps but would slow down after that (she always had a lot of resting spots in her LPs). I feel that Kwan had better footwork (check out her footwork in TFB, Rach '98 and TFB). Another insult by you to me? That's very juvenile.
Karosanyo 4 months ago
If all the women had skated cleanly the final results would be this year:
1)Butyrskaya
2)Slutskaya
3)Kwan
This particular panel loved Maria's artistry and programs this year and would have given her the nod over Irina based on that. Irina would have won the tech. mark easily but lost on the 2nd. Michelle did a great skate but was so lucky both Russian faltered.
grafgirl27 4 years ago 5
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I don't think so, did you hear the commentator, Butyrskaya had the weakest technicall program planned! Even they had skated perfectly, the long program would have been won by Michelle! And the final result would have been:
1) Butyrskaya
2) Kwan
3) Slutskaya
And that's only Michelle needed someone else to beat Maria in order to win, that night, even Slutskaya, who always seem very upset about her not winnin' gold, said Michelle totally deserved it.
sayalamar 3 years ago
You are an idiot. A shaky performance from Irina nearly beat Michelle in the long, so how on earth was Michelle going to beat a perfect Irina when she barely beat a subpar Irina. If Irina had done a perfect performance Kwan would have lost to Irina easily. Maria was too far over Kwan after the short. So the best Kwan could have done was 3rd if Maria and Irina both skated cleanly. Michelle was lucky both screwed up so she was able to win. The only question is which of Irina or Maria would win.
quirotmutolafan 3 years ago 7
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Haha, just to read your comment is a waste of time, i won't even comment of something that stupid and idiotic as you and as your comment.
sayalamar 3 years ago
I guess you cant stand someone telling you the truth, especialy when it is something not in favor of your beloved Kwan. quirotmutolafan is exactly right. Irina had some major mistakes, only 6 triples and no triple-triple and still nearly beat Michelle. If Irina had done a 7th triples and even 1 triple-triple Michelle had no chance. A clean Maria would have also easily beaten Michelle like she did in the short. The judges did not give Michelle the marks she did planning to put her in first.
russianskatingfan 3 years ago 6
Without the mistakes, I would've put this beautiful program ahead of Slutskaya for the Silver. I think she does a great Swan Lake!
BobbiBlush 4 years ago
She would have won gold with a clean skate. She only had to be 2nd in the LP to win overall. Anyway even her SP scores were higher then Kwan's LP scores, and a skater does not drop scores from the SP to LP hardly ever if they go clean. She would have won the LP too with a clean skate.
tapecase72 4 years ago 4
If she had placed 2nd in the free skate she still would've won the title since Kwan was 3rd in the short program, but since she was 3rd in the free skate behind Kwan and Slutskaya, Butyrskaya fell to third. It was a 5-4 split with the judges between her and Vanessa Gusmeroli for 3rd place in the free skate, but I think it was correct for Butyrskaya to have placed 3rd over Gusmeroli.
CoCoNuTsiopatHic 4 years ago 4
of course, since she was 1st after the short program. Has anyone been 1st in short program
and dropped down all the way to 4th or lower
on the long program.
AnnPatriceM17 4 years ago
At the 1993 Worlds Nancy Kerrigan was 1st after the short program and fell all the way to 5th!
rfillangi 4 years ago
I think Maria would of lost this championship even with a clean performance. Her jumps planned were not as difficult and even if she would of landed the salcows, Kwan's triple-triple was more difficult and Kwan had the 2nd lutz. I really don't think this performance was not that bad.
tenababy1 4 years ago
She did not have to win the LP. She only had to be 2nd in the LP to win overall. Irina had mistakes, so of course with a clean skate she would be atleast 2nd in the LP and win overall ahead of Kwan. I think she might have won the LP too despite what you say, but she certainly would have won overall.
tapecase72 4 years ago 7
Wow! she was 1st after the short program, and went all the way down to 3rd place in the Long. That's very unfortunate since she was leading in the short.
AnnPatriceM17 4 years ago
Thats what happen when you dont skate clean, especialy when someone like Michelle Kwan already did.
grafgirl27 4 years ago
Yes, she had the option of sl, circular or serpentine. And it's supposed to utilize the full ice surface. Sometimes that didn't happen and in '99 it was only a .1 deduction.
patc1221 4 years ago
I'm guessing a footwork sequence was not demanded yet?
swimt2006 4 years ago
feathers...
deeredley 4 years ago