Development of Broadcast Standard US English

[kylefrankie1]

weres the black ops and mw3 gameplay dude

[quarkwrok]

The army grew during the Napoleonic Wars and saw mixing all across the UK, hence start of the 19th c. in the video, but not necessarily anything to do with RP. There was an influx of Dutch and German aristo's in the UK from the 1680's to the 1830's affecting the accent heavily, also a mixing in the elite private schools during the 19th c. where RP thrived.

2 Questions. Should US TV push more UK-origin programming? Will we end up with a transatlantic accent spoken by all English speakers?

[quarkwrok]

I think local and standardised accents are bring confused here. Local accents in the US are blends from the early settlers and pioneers, plus particular immigrant groups in places. They have also moved towards the standard particularly since WWII. US RP is of course influenced greatly by the development of British RP but also from middle class especially New England and the tidewater areas. Local British English was affected by the education system, the army, industrialisation.

[caraqueno]

One can still hear non-rhotic pronunciation among native Charlestonians, Savannans. Their speech is the higher-end version of the Tidewater accent, native to area roughly equating with Chesapeake Bay and considerably more southerly than that. Bostonians (though not western Massachusetts) is non-rhotic in pronunciation.

The Transatlantic accent was considered the "standard" American English until after WW2. Audrey Hepburn was half-British and educated in RP English, not Transatlantic.

[andres1985able]

I love British English also pronunciation!!

[HouseofBurgessesLR]

Those who point out the classic film era are correct. The actors of that period were taught to speak in the non-rhotic, Mid-Atlantic style. One can also hear it in songs and broadcast announcer voices from the period. It's a fast-disappearing feature (sadly to me). Even on the coast of Georgia where I travel a lot, the younger generation sound like their contemporaries across the country. We're becoming homogenized.

[NewYorkFlavour]

@HouseofBurgessesLR

I blame much of the decline of American English on the removal of phonics instruction from the classroom, in favor of the dumbed-down "Sight Word" system. That's why Americans of the past you see in these films have these beautiful, articulate voices you don't hear anymore; they knew how to enunciate, they understood how their language broke down phonetically. Now, trashy stupid MTV SoCal English is the new standard of today's young people, it's so sad.

[MowgliX]

There should be no such thing as correct or incorrect. The spoken language is the primary thing, and separate from the written form. So, in my opinion, people can talk any way they want, and they have every right to do so of course, and there is no way to control it, anyway. But for practical reasons, it is great if people follow some kind of standard in the written language. However, this is a problem now, because certain illusory standards have evolved, and I feel they are more of a problem...

[MowgliX]

@MowgliX ...than helpful. So, why not somehow try to come up with some kind of compromise? The differences in spelling are ludicrous! I mean "organisation" or "organization"? Who the bleep cares? Even Queen Elizabeth spelled (spelt?) her name with a Z, not an S some 400 years ago, and she was certainly English! So, some committee should say: "OK, lets solve the delicate problem of spelling. Shouldn't be too hard."

[Handsomeguy87]

I love mixing rhotic and non rhotic speech! I reject full rhotic or full non-rhotic speech: I say heaRRRRRd, heRRRt, woRRker, but i say nevaaaa (never), in words ending at the word with er I would never speak them r-full (rhotic).

[finehomemadewine]

@Handsomeguy87 Has t sound absolutly great ..and a bit confusing :-)

[7t8h4z]

I've often wondered about the American accent of many film stars of the 1930's who spoke much like FDR. I wondered why I never hear that accent today. It sounded so "refined and upper class." I noticed that only rich people spoke that way.  This video helped me understand where and why it was heard back then. Thank you for sharing this video.

[MowgliX]

Incorrect, correct? There's no such thing. At least in Europe, and probably elsewhere, there is a wide variety within every language group, and languages are ALIVE: they and grow and develop naturally, no mater what anybody tries to influence it.

[cornbagel]

@MowgliX I agree. I think how much a change is accepted as "correct" depends on how prevalent this difference is. If there is a lot of people who adopt this different natural development, it may be more widely accepted.

[MrPresidentToBe]

oh and of course, there are people who pronounce the (T's) in those words too!

[MowgliX]

@MrPresidentToBe Well, I'm not a native speaker of course, but I say battery, not baddery.

[NewYorkFlavour]

I have to agree with Labov in the end. It's kind of lame to just be imitating the English, I'm happy we developed our own unique dialects.

[MrPresidentToBe]

@NewYorkFlavour you must also remember that England has many accents, and not just the posh one most of you Americans are familiar with!

There are accents in England that pronounce the (R) just like with MOST American accents, although i do believe there is atleast one accent in America that doesnt pronounce the (R), i think it is the Boston accent? im not sure...

[NewYorkFlavour]

@MrPresidentToBe No, I didn't mean to disparage the British accent, what I meant was that I'm happy we formed our own identity and manner of speech. I like many British accents, especially Cockney. Also, the only accents in England that pronounce the r I believe are the West Country accents, and those are dying out fast.

[MrPresidentToBe]

@NewYorkFlavour actually the West country accent is only one of quite a few England, probably the most well known accent that pronounces the (R) :)

I will provide you with an example from the north of England in Lancashire, they also pronounce their (R)'s.

Watch this video of English actress Jane Horrocks.

/watch?v=tXFR5ShGZIU

Theres the proof! :D

[c243mx7tr]

@NewYorkFlavour Carter is not 'upper class' I think that you are looking for the classic native Charleston and much rarer native Savannah accent. Carter sonuds like a hick, no disrespect but he has that nasty south georgia twang that grates on the ear

[NewYorkFlavour]

@c243mx7tr I always thought the softer, non-rhotic accents were considered more upper class, but I admit, I'm not from the South, so I could be wrong. I always enjoyed his voice, I found him a pleasant president to listen to speak. Clinton's accent is closer to what I imagine in a working class southern accent.

[c243mx7tr]

@NewYorkFlavour There is a lot more regional variation than that. Clinton sounds like he is from Ark. which is a lot different. Labov said something about the major 'tory' cities in America and I think that is right on the money.

[c243mx7tr]

@NewYorkFlavour Nah, and remember Carter was from a very poor area and grew up as a peanut farmer. Reba Macintire is also an example of a very unpleasant southern accent.

[informationplz]

Bitter/bidder badder/batter mettle/meddle/middle/metal

Matter/madder odder/otter ratter/redder(also palindrome)English is spoken correctly if the other person understands you and can reciprocate in English.Here is and example of an Ohio accent: "So I git my truk outta th shop and th brake still don work" or "Ar yo goen oer lair?" So I get my truck out of the shop and the brake still doesn't work..Are you going over there? "I lie cat" I like that. That's what I hear then, hearin Ahia.OHIO

[kwerna]

Gloopy, Americans aren't actually saying "bi'un" for bitten. We're replacing the t with an aveolar tap, a sound that you hear in a posh English pronunication of "very."

If you make continuous tapping, you get a Spanish trill. In Spanish class, when we were learning to roll our "r's," we were told to say butter, butter, butter, butter and try to isolate and exaggerate the middle of the word.

[gloopey1]

The "T" is still dropped, in either case. If it is replaced, then its true sound is not present.

[mujahid01]

@kwerna well actually you're right about butter but wrong about bitten. With bitten we're saying /bi?n/, where /?/ is a glottal stop (that's close to the IPA letter for it). Using your transcription it would indeed be bi'n. Interestingly, bidden (as in "he was bidden to depart") is pronounced with a postnasalized stop after the /d/ sound. I was unable to find an IPA transcription for a postnasalized stop.

[NewYorkFlavour]

@kwerna You use an alveolar flap for "bitten"? I use a glottal stop, I rarely hear anyone pronounce it "bidden", it's "bi'en" with the t swallow, as in the words "Britain" and "button".

[MrPresidentToBe]

@NewYorkFlavour for most of the words like Little, Kettle, rattle, metal, petal etc..

Most of us English will use lateral plosive which generates a unique sound. But there are some in England who use the glottal stop for those words. American tend to use the (D) with those words, right?

[NewYorkFlavour]

@MrPresidentToBe Yes, nearly all Americans would use an alveolar flap, or tapped r, for kettle, rattle, metal, and petal. It's distinct from a d though. Petal sounds a bit different than pedal, as in pedal it's a real hard d, while in petal it is just a quick flap, but they sound quite close. I've noticed most Americans use the glottal stop for t's before an n. So nearly all Americans would "swallow" the t in Britain, button, mutton, and glutton, with no flap at all.

[kmj2000]

@NewYorkFlavour I think both petal and pedal both have alveolar taps, but our perception is that they're different. For most Americans pedal definitely does not have a hard D. In New York City (where I'm from) with many immigrants from different places in might be different for some speakers.

[VORYAN1]

I just had a meeting with him on Monday. I brought my copy of Social Strat. in NYC.

[dimitriosmichael]

I love Labov. He's right out there.

[sleepyat2am]

i kinda like the british-like 'theatre' accent. it was real cool.

[koochick393482]

What is the background music at the beginning of this clip?

[icepickmeetstemple]

FDR's mode of speech always reminds me of Kennedy. They had a similar accent, I think.

This is off topic, but I always wondered why some British people drop their "r"s and then add them onto words where they don't belong. I've heard this at times in people from the great plains here in the US too. Wonder if there is a connection.

[MrJasonSmarts]

Yeah ive always wondered why Americans drop their (T), and replace it with (D), so for e.g. a yank would say

Wader, or Compuder, instead of Water and Computer.

[gloopey1]

Some British speakers also drop T's. For example, bitten. An American might pronounce it as bi' un while some British folks might say bi' en. This is how Ozzy Osbourne says it. Americans don't say "wader," because the "d" sound requires that the tongue to strike the pallet flat. The "t" in water is actually dropped, though to some it may sound as if it is a "d" instead. I will pm you other examples.

[MrJasonSmarts]

Ok thanks buddy :) Its actually very interesting, so you guys dont actually replace your (T's) with (D's)? I always thought you did lol

[creamyfilling102]

@gloopey1 we do too say wader. if you drop the T entirely,,it's just wa-er. nobody says wa-er. there's definitly a mild D sound in there.

[gloopey1]

Maybe you do, but most Americans don't--not really. This is a common misconception that people who have never studied liguistics make.

[creamyfilling102]

i actualy have gotton into english linguistics. in minnesota, there's definitly a D. maybe in other places it's not so, but on professional newscasts, it's D. not a full D with a flat palet tongue strike as you said, but kind of a lighter more subtle D. i just know for sure that it isn't dropped completly.

[mujahid01]

@creamyfilling102 the "d" in that case is actually an alveolar flap, or /r/, like Spanish uses in "pero" (but). We also do that with intervocalic /d/ (between two vowels), and since it's voiced we associate it with /d/ instead of /t/ (both alveolar stops). In fact, if we pronounce a true intervocalic [d] it almost sounds like a geminate /d:/ to us.

[creamyfilling102]

@mujahid01 sure. that's a lovely way to put it.

[teddythefrency]

I am European too, but I followed the teachings of a franco-canadian professor at the High School (she was originary of Toronto), and it is nor british nor american.

But Toronto is close to Chicago...

[Laddre]

all of your videos the audio is off man not one is right. other then that i like the videos

[abhitron]

This is very interesting. However one has to wonder how the rhoticity of Canadian English came about.

[MrJasonSmarts]

Well their is (rhoticity) in Great Britain too, in the north and south.

[barkley87]

but in the uk rhoticity is the less prestigious variant, interestingly enough.

[MiamiPush2theLimit]

woah, FDR's accent was really cool. Very British sounding for an American. Like half British, half Boston.

[ijsmale]

@MiamiPush2theLimit ...FDR's accent, and that of Kennedy is called the" Trans-Atlantic Accent" and it was a "taught" way of speaking during the middle of the 20th century for upper class easterners. Also, many actors of that era were also taught to speak it, such as Katharine Hepburn, Grace Kelly, Audrey Hepburn, etc. Can't think of any male actors who spoke that way but there must have been some

[SharpEdges]

@ijsmale I know one, Tony Randall from '7 Faces of Dr Loa'. The man say the words as it is spell. That plus his voice. Beautiful :)

[MaBu888]

I am from Europe and I speak American...

[adrianextyear]

i need more. please let me know where i can get the whole interview

[dapunkof1975]

Man I'd like to see the whole thing about this program, could you one day show everything?

[yojosun]

Kmm,

This is really great. Thanks for posting it up.

Yeah, I would love to see the rest. Can you help?

Thx,

YJ

[jcranma]

Holy crap! FDR doesn't sound like a normal American!

[gloopey1]

This was how a lot of people spoke in the 40's.

[pipeorganloverNJP]

Gosh it's over already? It was so interesting. Yeah, I like FDR's accent a lot. :) So is there a DVD version of this?

[deannausernametaken]

Is there any way I can watch the rest of this? What is the name of this program?

[bunnyblueblue]

Can this documentary be found in full on DVD?

I found this segment quite interesting. :)