Fox News Debate - Part 1, 6/23/07

[FluxCapacitor2008]

Do you think there is a chance that the insurance industry could be lying to us so they can keep the money rolling in? If youre making billions wouldnt you lie and cheat to keep it?

[KidsTrax]

UHF is communist. AND WE DUNT WANT COMMIE HEALTHCARE IN MA JESUS AMERICA.

[myrabel]

I like how they cut off the guy that was talking pro national health care system, and let all the other douches talk about "national health care = immoral"

Fair and balanced indeed!

[DaveSauce]

"There is no such thing as a right to healthcare"

Drive your overpriced car off a bridge and die you sick fuck. If you don't think people have a right to health care then get the fuck off my planet.

Wahh I can't afford my 4th vacation home because the government is using money to help other people live.

Guess what dumbass? Those people who can't afford health care are the ones cleaning your bathroom, so suck it up or spend your time cleaning your own shit.

[Yakuzathug]

Wow, what a room full of clowns.

[mozzer422]

The rich have an obligation to pay for everyone's healthcare. They exploit their workers here and around the world by not paying a living wage to the majority. Their products lead to more health problems-cars,oil,alcohol, etc.

The truth is everyone has a right to live! Who cares if the rich get to drive a Bentley or not. Life is more precious for all! If the rich get taxed more, who cares! They are going to spent it on meaningless crap anyways. Let's give people a chance to live.

[timbosforporn]

.18 more being spent here. Isn't that the industries money and not our money.

[dianep123]

And where do they get "their" money, from thin air? That money is your premium...

[heatzenith]

They talk about hundreds of billons of dollars in taxpayer money without acknowledging the hundreds of billions of dollars going into insurance premiums now.

[bobwillis]

Fox needs a spanking.

[xicotencatzin]

These fox debates are terrible...

[cfbastiat]

You can't cheat reality no matter how well-meaning. Government can't repeal the law of supply and demand. They can only disrupt vital price signals and add obstacles that make health care cost more. Would you have the government run the grocery stores? Can you imagine the long lines and shortages? The answer is to get them entirely out of the health care business (Medicare, FDA, physician licensing, & insurance regulations). More freedom equals lower costs, less freedom equals higher costs.

[indoctus41]

cfbastiat: You are right. Private business is potentially more efficient than government. For instance, the oil companies are very efficient at pumping up prices when the urge suits them. Is that what you mean by efficient?

[cfbastiat]

I detect a hint of sarcasm. Prices get set for oil just like they get set for items on ebay - by the bidding process. Oil companies can set whatever price they want, it's true, but the consumer isn't forced to buy. They can conserve, find another company, or use a substitute. With govt there is no choice - you are forced to buy. The only way to get the govt to give you what you want is to hold an election every several yrs & try to convince the majority that you need it.

[indoctus41]

cfbastiat: Oil companies collude to pump up profits. There is no competition in the manner you are discribing. And our whole economy is based on oil with alternatives tremendously expensive or their development suppressed by private buy-outs or government regulation. Note: The sale of electric cars is illegal in 9 out of 10 provinces in Canada.

[cfbastiat]

indoctus41: Yes, members of OPEC do collude to set prices. However competition from non-OPEC nations helps keep them in line. Non-OPEC countries produce ~60% of the world's oil. Also, by raising prices, the cartel creates incentives for it's members to cheat & undersell the others. Your statement about govt regulation & the illegality of electric cars proves my point that govt intervention creates more problems than is solves.

[indoctus41]

CF: Hold on now. It's not just an OPEC issue. Prices substantially rise and fall day after day on barrels already purchased. It's a synchronized money drain by the entire refining industry because they know they can get away with it, but they know that pushing too hard will attract government interference. That accounts for the inexplicable price drop after the cash grab. It's not a pretty world out there.

[cfbastiat]

If I own something I should have the right to charge whatever I want for it. The same goes for owners of oil. You seem to be saying that freedom doesn't work & that govt has a claim to other people's property. But it is only freedom of property that improves our world. The most prosperous countries are the ones that most respect property rights. Check out the economic freedom link on the Fraser Institute's website if you want. The more control you give govt the less control you have.

[indoctus41]

CF: We're not talking about a cheaper shovel here. When oil companies drive up prices it creates instability right across the economic board. You seem to be saying that no-one has any responsibility to the greater good. You know there is another group on this planet that thinks that way, mosquitos. It's your choice to have that view, but it is a rather stagnant, depressing view of human consciousness.

[cfbastiat]

Oil prices declined between 1946 & 1973 so I don't buy your conspiracy theory. Price controls & wars in the middle east are the prime reason for price spikes. Again govt causes the problem. Believe it or not some oil companies do want to please their customers and outdo their rivals. I never thought I'd see the day when freedom was described as stagnant & depressing. People are not born to serve others or some greater good. That would make us slaves.

[indoctus41]

CF: So really the new revamped 'CF' Constitution would begin, "ME the people...." It's really OK for you to do that. Empires in the past (Greece, Rome) did not last long once that mind-set took over, and I'm really no fan of US expansion. So carry on.

[cfbastiat]

Since I'm arguing for less government how is that going to cause US expansion? Quite the opposite. I'm sorry to say it but you are either very confused, misinformed, or so brainwashed that govt is good that you fail to give them any of the blame. It's obvious you don't get it that freedom is good and that an intrusive nanny govt is bad. I tried.

[indoctus41]

CF: Well you now need a history lesson. Rome's greatest expansion occurred during the Republic, during their period of democracy. Oooops! Facts are really bothersome aren't they?

[cfbastiat]

Huh? You realize that by arguing against democracy you've taken my side right? Democracy leads to an intrusive bloated govt which I thought you were in favor of. Your point is kind of odd given that we've been debating free markets vs big govt - not the merits of democracy.

[indoctus41]

CF: Where did I say "democracy leads to a bloated gov't". I talked of expansionist policies that can emanate from democratic political structures, and used Rome as an example. And I never described "freedom" as "stagnant and depressing". I was talking about your views on the lack of responsibility by members of a society. Now who else misquotes and attacks. Oh Yeah. The US media. I guess you'll have to stand in line.

[mwtoews]

jerks

[jackiebaron]

That English guy is just a bought-and-paid for idiot. I live in the Netherlands. I take home 2 grand a week and so must pay for health coverage.. 100 dollars a month and I get everything for that. I recently had some operations for sports injuries and was waited on hand and foot by 3 doctors and 5 nurses. When living in the States I waited 4 hours in a stinking Long Island hospital waiting room with a broken ankle before being seen to. And I had private coverage there. The US system sucks!

[splashy9]

Boy, those folks on Fox really talk over each other and beat each other up verbally, don't they. Folks couldn't finish what they were saying and couldn't get full thoughts out.

[splashy9]

So, if other countries can do it spending much less money on health care, we can't do it too? How incompetent are we? We are all in the same boat when it comes to health care. What goes around comes around.

[samander05]

Good job ripping on those assholes about the gas prices though. It sucks that they didn't let you talk about it more. It always confused me as to why a news show would have 8 people and give them all 30 seconds to talk instead of a nice debate between a couple of people, (or some facts would be nice too.)

[samander05]

If you talk to any Spaniard on the street about it, they will tell you that they realize this system is going bankrupt soon. I know that healthcare costs in America are far too high, but I think that there must be some alternative that we aren't seeing to socialized healthcare, because if we develop that system, it will fail (as all socialist policies do eventually) and I'll be out of America and off to somewhere in this world that isn't socialist yet. (If such a place still exists).

[samander05]

. Sure it's free and everyone is covered, but I don't feel that it's worth it considering the extremely poor quality of the healthcare man. You should see the hospital in my neighborhood, because it's quite frightening. Another point it is that if I needed to use one of the hospitals here, I could do that at no cost to myself. The downside? I (like the MILLIONS of immigrants that come to Spain from Africa, South America, Etc.) am an illegal in this country and therefore do not pay any taxes.

[samander05]

Sorry David. I live in Spain, a country with socialized medicine, but I am an American citizen that will be returning soon, and I am terrified about the next election. The health care thing is one issue that worries me most. I don't know if you have ever been to a country with socialized medicine, but I can assure you from living here for almost a year that it is terrible.

[indoctus41]

Hi samander05: I have a friend in Vigo Spain who accepts the Spanish health system, and although there are problems, prefers it over an American capitalistic one. I have lived in the US (from Canada), and there is something obscene about lying on a hospital bed writhing in pain and having to cough up cash BEFORE help is given. That's really an American neo-Darwinistic belief system, and is rather peculiar to the rest of the world.

[samander05]

Yeah, that's great, but what is the difference between having to pay to be treated that day and waiting 4-6 weeks to be treated for free? The prices are too high in America, I agree, but it is a business man, and if you receive their quality services, you have to pay them. Not to mention the whole bankrupt system inevitability that I spoke about before. Read what cfbastiat said, or what I said before, because that's pretty much how I feel.

[indoctus41]

samander05: I don't know where you came up with 4-6 weeks (elective surgury perhaps?). Not the case in Canada. Elections are lost trying to privatize the system here. There are private clinics in Spain for the rich, so you should try them. But clearly not everyone can afford that. Note: the infant mortality rate in the US is higher than Cuba, Spain or Canada, so your system does not work for everyone. You do throw a lot of cash into weaponry. Does that bother you?

[samander05]

Of course it does indoctus41, but what bothers me most is me giving MY money to the government. If I earn it, I don't want them to have it to spend on hospitals or weapons. Things left in the private sector without special government contracts or privileges turn out the best products and services for everyone. My government seems to think that it is THEIR money, not the peoples, and that they can use it for political gain of their own.

[thequietkid10]

huh, did I read that correctly, paying taxes bothers you more then dead babies? The fuck is your problem?

[samander05]

Their only concern is that they get reelected, not that we have good healthcare. The compromise, in my mind, would be socialized healthcare for those that want it, and a privatized section for those that don't. You mentioned the private hospitals in Spain but there is a catch-even if I go to those, I still pay taxes for the public hospitals. I don't feel that is a freedom of choice, and personal freedom and liberty is what i'm all about man. :)