thanks for the video.... the first explaination i have seen of this yet.... thanks for taking the time to do this. I still have one little problem.... the fact that twice it says after he said this he breathed his last. that was in two different places right? so one of them has to be incorrect. even though you can make a time line out of it....... doesn't mean that there isn't human error present in those scriptures. the error is the fact that it said twice after this he breathed his last.
@wlchambers I'm glad you liked the video. Would you mind showing me specific verses so I can see exactly what you are talking about? I think I know which verses your referring to, but I want to be sure.
@Jman3000 actually the same verses thats in your video. it is possible he said all those things, however if more than one gospel says he said [insert words here] then gave up the ghost. and more than one phrase is given, it means one or both of them missed something he said and THOUGHT it was his last words....even if he did say all those things..... and this is a problem i have that is between the lines if you will. the error of man. it shows that it is not inerrant......so thats my problem
@wlchambers As of now, I agree that Matthew, Mark (possibly Peter), and John experienced the same event from different perspectives. Luke was not an eye witness to the event, but he did get info from witnesses. If you look at verse 46, you may notice that Jesus' "last words" was Him calling in a loud voice. This to me says that a lot of people heard Him say it. If you look at John 19:28, you will see that John heard what may have been very soft words, "I thirst."
I can't say this for sure, right now anyway, but I think that Jesus and John were close relationally, meaning they were good friends. It would be understandable that John was nearer or at least stayed around Jesus more often than anyone else. This, theory may be supported by the fact the he did not record His loud declarations or exclamations (see 28-30). Mark is said to have been dictated by Peter. As we see early in the story, Peter denies Jesus and may still be afraid or ashamed.
Being ashamed, Peter perhaps stayed hidden in the crowds. This seems to be evident in the account. If Mark was not dictated by Peter to Mark, but is the account of Mark himself, the same may still be true. I can not say that I know enough about Mark to confirm this. Since Matthew was a tax collector, he may have also had reason to hide. He may have even been next to Peter/Mark. This would explain the similarities of their accounts.
@Jman3000 thats kinda what i was tihnking... they were all standing in different positions and heard different things. and i like your take on that. it makes a lot of sense. but what does this say about the bible being inerrant or not? does this mean that there is human error there? or at least the possiblity of it/ or is it just as simple as saying its inerrant and this is the explaination?
@wlchambers In this particular case, unless the accounts of Jesus' death are indeed human error, it is inherent, ie contains no errors. I can not determine, by simple reading the accounts, that Matthew, Mark, Luke or John recorded anything that was thought to have been said by Jesus, but was just misunderstood. I think I would have had to have been there. I'm in no position to say they heard wrong.
Btw, John 19:24-27 shows that John, along with two others, was near Jesus.
@Jman3000 btw i was assuming that all recorded words of jesus WERE correct and he did say them but at different times.... (the timeline that can be deduced)... interesting though
Luke 23:44-46 gives an account of Christ yelling out "Father......my spirt" as his quoted last words while John 19:30 gives an account of his quoted last words as "It is finished". That's like two people quoting the last sentence of a speech and their accounts turn out to be different, which were his quoted last words?
@HybridD91 Nowhere does it say "Jesus' last words were..." Luke says, "Jesus called out with a loud voice..." John says, "Jesus said..."
If you watch my video, I believe I made good points about how Jesus said everything in all 4 accounts before He died.
To answer your question, I think Jesus' last words were, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." from Luke. My reasoning is that right after He said this, He died.
Well, your right, I strongly believe he definetely said "it's finished" because a little before, John says "And so that the Scripture would be fulfilled" so that means it was already written that he would have said that,,, about saying "I'm thirsty" yeah that makes sense and so giving him the vinegar, but between "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" and drinking there's a big period of time. Yeah, what you said makes sense, but don't try to rationalize.
4. On an unrelated note, I noticed that you mentioned the tearing of the curtain in only one Gospel. That is a shame, because there is a nice contradiction there as well...
Jesus dieing and the curtain tearing are mentioned right next to each other in both Luke and Mark. The time between these event could be a matter of seconds. Both Luke and Mark states the curtain was torn at about the time Jesus died
My point is that Jesus' death and the curtain tearing happened a pretty much the same time. Therefore if either one is mention first it is still correct.
You proposed that Jesus said "It is finished" as in John, and then said "Into your hands..." as in Luke, just before he died. I have a few problems with this:
a. John does NOT indicate that any loud cry followed his words. You seem to have invented this sequence.
b. Both John AND Luke indicate that their versions of the words occurred DIRECTLY BEFORE Jesus died.
c. Luke does NOT suggest that Jesus said anything before his last words. Again, you invented.
What I do know is that each gospel was written to a specific group of individuals. For example, John was written primarily to the Jews and was meant to show the divinity of Jesus. This is also a possible reason why the agony was not stressed in John.
Yes, that is very true, and I completely agree with you on that point.
Each author had a different goal in mind, some wanted to show Jesus' suffering, whereas others wanted to show him composed and in control.
Therefore, when you try to lump all their stories together into one mega-story (in order to resolve contradictions), you lose altogether the individual message that each author was trying to convey!
Jesus said everything in the 4 gospels before He died in a sequence. Each gospel writer took a specific phrase that Jesus said for the point they are trying to make.
As I have pointed out in the video, the last words of Jesus mentioned in each gospel can be logically fitted together to show how it is possible that He said all of them before dieing.
The literal last words were probably the words in Luke said just after what is said in John.
Well Jman, I maintain my disagreement, and I maintain that you have invented a sequence where none was intended.
If one were intended, it would appear chronologically in each gospel, or AT LEAST, the gospels of John and Luke would indicate that Jesus at least said other things. They do not.
Both John and Luke present their phrases as the very last thing that Jesus said - they are indeed in contradiction.
As I have tried to show, it is COMPLETELY POSSIBLE that Jesus said everything in the gospels. Therefore it can not be a conclusive contradiction being that there is no indication He didn't say anything else in Luke or John. There are in fact logical windows in which these things can be said.
Common sense tells me that there is no contradiction.
I am not suggesting we read the gospels clumped together, I am however building a logical time line to show that these verses don't contradict.
1. After the drink, Matthew says he gave up his breath with a "loud cry" - he was clearly in agony here.
But in John, after the drink, he gives up his spirit with "it is finished", and then peacefully dies. Jesus is decidedly NOT in agony in John's version of the story..
This is a key point on which the authors disagree - Did Jesus not understand why he was suffering? Or did he know all along that this was his plan?
Read the context, Jman. There little to no agony is the entire John story. Jesus seems to be in complete, voluntary control of whats going on, and is fulfilling a bunch of scriptures.
thanks for the video.... the first explaination i have seen of this yet.... thanks for taking the time to do this. I still have one little problem.... the fact that twice it says after he said this he breathed his last. that was in two different places right? so one of them has to be incorrect. even though you can make a time line out of it....... doesn't mean that there isn't human error present in those scriptures. the error is the fact that it said twice after this he breathed his last.
wlchambers 1 year ago
@wlchambers I'm glad you liked the video. Would you mind showing me specific verses so I can see exactly what you are talking about? I think I know which verses your referring to, but I want to be sure.
Jman3000 1 year ago
@Jman3000 actually the same verses thats in your video. it is possible he said all those things, however if more than one gospel says he said [insert words here] then gave up the ghost. and more than one phrase is given, it means one or both of them missed something he said and THOUGHT it was his last words....even if he did say all those things..... and this is a problem i have that is between the lines if you will. the error of man. it shows that it is not inerrant......so thats my problem
wlchambers 1 year ago
@wlchambers As of now, I agree that Matthew, Mark (possibly Peter), and John experienced the same event from different perspectives. Luke was not an eye witness to the event, but he did get info from witnesses. If you look at verse 46, you may notice that Jesus' "last words" was Him calling in a loud voice. This to me says that a lot of people heard Him say it. If you look at John 19:28, you will see that John heard what may have been very soft words, "I thirst."
(continue)
Jman3000 1 year ago
I can't say this for sure, right now anyway, but I think that Jesus and John were close relationally, meaning they were good friends. It would be understandable that John was nearer or at least stayed around Jesus more often than anyone else. This, theory may be supported by the fact the he did not record His loud declarations or exclamations (see 28-30). Mark is said to have been dictated by Peter. As we see early in the story, Peter denies Jesus and may still be afraid or ashamed.
(cont)
Jman3000 1 year ago
Being ashamed, Peter perhaps stayed hidden in the crowds. This seems to be evident in the account. If Mark was not dictated by Peter to Mark, but is the account of Mark himself, the same may still be true. I can not say that I know enough about Mark to confirm this. Since Matthew was a tax collector, he may have also had reason to hide. He may have even been next to Peter/Mark. This would explain the similarities of their accounts.
It is a believable scenario to me.
Jman3000 1 year ago
@Jman3000 thats kinda what i was tihnking... they were all standing in different positions and heard different things. and i like your take on that. it makes a lot of sense. but what does this say about the bible being inerrant or not? does this mean that there is human error there? or at least the possiblity of it/ or is it just as simple as saying its inerrant and this is the explaination?
wlchambers 1 year ago
@wlchambers In this particular case, unless the accounts of Jesus' death are indeed human error, it is inherent, ie contains no errors. I can not determine, by simple reading the accounts, that Matthew, Mark, Luke or John recorded anything that was thought to have been said by Jesus, but was just misunderstood. I think I would have had to have been there. I'm in no position to say they heard wrong.
Btw, John 19:24-27 shows that John, along with two others, was near Jesus.
Jman3000 1 year ago
@Jman3000 btw i was assuming that all recorded words of jesus WERE correct and he did say them but at different times.... (the timeline that can be deduced)... interesting though
wlchambers 1 year ago
Luke 23:44-46 gives an account of Christ yelling out "Father......my spirt" as his quoted last words while John 19:30 gives an account of his quoted last words as "It is finished". That's like two people quoting the last sentence of a speech and their accounts turn out to be different, which were his quoted last words?
HybridD91 1 year ago
@HybridD91 Nowhere does it say "Jesus' last words were..." Luke says, "Jesus called out with a loud voice..." John says, "Jesus said..."
If you watch my video, I believe I made good points about how Jesus said everything in all 4 accounts before He died.
To answer your question, I think Jesus' last words were, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." from Luke. My reasoning is that right after He said this, He died.
Jman3000 1 year ago
Well, your right, I strongly believe he definetely said "it's finished" because a little before, John says "And so that the Scripture would be fulfilled" so that means it was already written that he would have said that,,, about saying "I'm thirsty" yeah that makes sense and so giving him the vinegar, but between "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" and drinking there's a big period of time. Yeah, what you said makes sense, but don't try to rationalize.
clois95 1 year ago
@clois95
Just trying to show that there is no contradiction
Jman3000 1 year ago
@Jman3000 yeah, I know I know ur right :P
clois95 1 year ago
4. On an unrelated note, I noticed that you mentioned the tearing of the curtain in only one Gospel. That is a shame, because there is a nice contradiction there as well...
Luke 23:25
"The sun stopped shining, and the curtain in the temple split down the middle... Then he died."
Mark 15:37
"Jesus shouted and then died. At once the curtain in the temple tore in two from top to bottom."
In Luke, the curtain tears BEFORE Jesus' death, but in Mark, it tears AFTER.
Captain42x 2 years ago
For one, the curtain isn't torn until Luke 23:45
Jesus dieing and the curtain tearing are mentioned right next to each other in both Luke and Mark. The time between these event could be a matter of seconds. Both Luke and Mark states the curtain was torn at about the time Jesus died
Jman3000 2 years ago
In one, it's torn BEFORE the death, in the other it's torn AFTER. This is a very significant distinction, Jman.
Captain42x 2 years ago
My point is that Jesus' death and the curtain tearing happened a pretty much the same time. Therefore if either one is mention first it is still correct.
Jman3000 2 years ago
3. The sequence, second problem.
You proposed that Jesus said "It is finished" as in John, and then said "Into your hands..." as in Luke, just before he died. I have a few problems with this:
a. John does NOT indicate that any loud cry followed his words. You seem to have invented this sequence.
b. Both John AND Luke indicate that their versions of the words occurred DIRECTLY BEFORE Jesus died.
c. Luke does NOT suggest that Jesus said anything before his last words. Again, you invented.
Captain42x 2 years ago
Luke mentions that Jesus talked to a criminal next to Him on the cross
Jesus' quotes in John and Luke did happen right before He died.
Jman3000 2 years ago
I'm not quite sure what you are saying here.
Captain42x 2 years ago
I'm saying that both John and Luke mention the last words of Jesus.
Jman3000 2 years ago
2. The sequence, first problem.
If indeed this was the sequence of Jesus' words, then why is it that none of the authors has this sequence as a standalone in their gospel?
Captain42x 2 years ago
I don't know
Jman3000 2 years ago
That's strange. I though Christians were guided to truth by the Holy Spirit?
Captain42x 2 years ago
What I do know is that each gospel was written to a specific group of individuals. For example, John was written primarily to the Jews and was meant to show the divinity of Jesus. This is also a possible reason why the agony was not stressed in John.
Jman3000 2 years ago
Yes, that is very true, and I completely agree with you on that point.
Each author had a different goal in mind, some wanted to show Jesus' suffering, whereas others wanted to show him composed and in control.
Therefore, when you try to lump all their stories together into one mega-story (in order to resolve contradictions), you lose altogether the individual message that each author was trying to convey!
Captain42x 2 years ago
Your argument is that the gospels contradict each other. This is not the case, I am simply pointing that out.
Jman3000 2 years ago
Jesus said everything in the 4 gospels before He died in a sequence. Each gospel writer took a specific phrase that Jesus said for the point they are trying to make.
As I have pointed out in the video, the last words of Jesus mentioned in each gospel can be logically fitted together to show how it is possible that He said all of them before dieing.
The literal last words were probably the words in Luke said just after what is said in John.
Jman3000 2 years ago
Well Jman, I maintain my disagreement, and I maintain that you have invented a sequence where none was intended.
If one were intended, it would appear chronologically in each gospel, or AT LEAST, the gospels of John and Luke would indicate that Jesus at least said other things. They do not.
Both John and Luke present their phrases as the very last thing that Jesus said - they are indeed in contradiction.
Captain42x 2 years ago
Do you not see the connection between John 19:30 and Luke 23:46?
John 23:46 ...With that, he bowed his head and *gave up his spirit*
Luke 23:46 ..."Father, into your hands *I commit my spirit.*" ...
Jman3000 2 years ago
I do see what you are talking about, but again I point out:
1. In john's version he does NOT say anything when he gives up his spirit. In Luke's, he DOES.
2. Luke does NOT indicate that Jesus said anything before giving up his spirit like this.
3. If either author had intended to present the lumped-together narrative that you have created, then they would have done so.
I maintain that you are misrepresenting each author's intended purpose by combining them.
Captain42x 2 years ago
As I have tried to show, it is COMPLETELY POSSIBLE that Jesus said everything in the gospels. Therefore it can not be a conclusive contradiction being that there is no indication He didn't say anything else in Luke or John. There are in fact logical windows in which these things can be said.
Common sense tells me that there is no contradiction.
I am not suggesting we read the gospels clumped together, I am however building a logical time line to show that these verses don't contradict.
Jman3000 2 years ago
Very well, Jman. I maintain my disagreement with your view, for the reasons stated below.
However, I can say that I liked how you created a video that attempts to solve the problem with reasoning that is not absurd.
From this point on, it will be up to those who watch our videos to form their own opinions.
Captain42x 2 years ago
Thanks for the response! Now...
1. After the drink, Matthew says he gave up his breath with a "loud cry" - he was clearly in agony here.
But in John, after the drink, he gives up his spirit with "it is finished", and then peacefully dies. Jesus is decidedly NOT in agony in John's version of the story..
This is a key point on which the authors disagree - Did Jesus not understand why he was suffering? Or did he know all along that this was his plan?
Depends which author you choose to read.
Captain42x 2 years ago
John doesn't say He peacefully dies, he says that Jesus bowed His head and gave up His spirit
Jman3000 2 years ago
Read the context, Jman. There little to no agony is the entire John story. Jesus seems to be in complete, voluntary control of whats going on, and is fulfilling a bunch of scriptures.
But in Matthew, Jesus is constantly in agony.
Captain42x 2 years ago
I would say being crucified would cause some serious agony.
Jman3000 2 years ago
If I'm not mistaken, Matthew talks more about Jesus' humanity
Jman3000 2 years ago