Building America: Who should Control Urban Growth?

[muhammadzahmad]

i guess markets should control development...

[katheryncruz24]

Ako lang ata nakakindit sa sarili ko dito.

[flyoverjoe]

Boy these oil companies must've paid off O'Toole, along with Bush, Cheney, and thousands of others who don't claim Big Oil to be Satan's offspring. How DO they do it? It must be from their obscene record profits.

[1x93cm]

O' Toole is a tool.

the debate is not whether we should drive cars or ride trains-

its about whether we are running out of cheap and easy sources of energy to power civilization- which is not really a debate at all since any fool knows there is no such thing as infinite resources on a finite planet

[670Kiester]

I would just so love to watch James make a lecture in the future basically saying:

HA HA I TOLD YOU SO.

But it probably won't work out that way, even If peak oil truly hits there will be people to totally deny it or accuse the middle east of hiding the oil or something.

[biry0501]

I am not sure where O'Toole gets his "facts", but I would love to know where he gets his funding. Something tells me that has something to do with his obtuse approach.

[strongbad635]

Typical sprawl defenses. They always say that #1: Americans live in sprawl, so they must choose it and therefore it must be good. Traditional neighborhood developments ALWAYS sell for far above the prices of comparable homes in suburban developments. Clearly Americans prefer traditional development, there just isn't enough of it. #2: Sprawl represents freedom, liberty, etc. Then why is sprawl mandated by governments? Most communities forbid anything BUT sprawl. The opposite of freedom.

[Cyrus992]

I barely see the liberty that is recieved from sprawl aka. post WWII development patterns.

Dont listen and STOP Randal O Toole! He seems like a fraud. He and Wendell Cox are part of the lobbyist groups that created this WWII type growth in the first place to CONTROL us.

They falsely act as libertarians to support the oil, cement, big box, asphalt, etc.. companies because Kunstler's ideas destroy their revenues!

Notice how O Toole does not support a "free market" New Urbanism like I do

[Scottit]

@Cyrus992 Still drinking the [un]cool-aid & ignoring many facts & unintended consqeunces?

[Cyrus992]

You are forced to live in isolated subdivision and driving through meaning less collector roads

You are forced to deal with HOA, Mello Ross, and high property tax payments to maintain the masterplan

You are forced to deal with land-use segregation and codes by public planners who DICTATE on where we should live.

You do not have the option of living above the store if you work there

You are limited in the street dimensions by the public planners

A lot of sprawl is subsidized.

[Scottit]

@Cyrus992 Oh what terrible invisible force. I thought that while growing up my parents "freely chose" to move from a Chicago high rise, to a suburban townhouse, then to a half acre, where I mostly grew up. Since I moved out, they were coerced into a 5-acre estate, which is now only used for winter, because they were somehow pushed into buying a 2nd estate on 10 acres in AZ.

[Cyrus992]

@Scottit

Honestly, I am not taking in the side of both Kunstler and O'Toole. I understand that Kunstler is over exaggerating over the oil issue.

What is upsetting and hypocritical about O'Toole is that he tends go against government-involved planning but fails to realize that in these car-dependent cities that even he supports, has tons of regulations, codes, and subsidies. He loves to hide things and distract facts.

CATO, Reason, and Heritage are bunch of thugs funded by Koch Oil.

[Cyrus992]

@AynManRand

What do you mean?

[AynManRand]

@Cyrus992 I have been with the "right wing" now since 2008, We opposed the bailouts, we lambasted McCain for -among other things- the ethanol subsidy, we've even pushed Ron Paul into contention for high office. You want a "hand made world" come over here and help cut the government apron strings and see which lifestyle can make it on its own.

[Cyrus992]

@AynManRand

Well I am neither right-wing or left-wing.

I have disagreements with both O'Toole and Kunstler.

[AynManRand]

@Cyrus992 Well the left wing has no interest in forgoing pages of code, any agencies, or reduction of fines. So any interesting idea which could advance mankind must come begging to perpetual fiefdoms run by dour tyrants. This type of government is the liberals favorite kind of lever for their bad ideas.

[Cyrus992]

@AynManRand

We do not really have a "liberal" government.

We have a corporate controlled governmental system.

[AynManRand]

@Cyrus992 Not Classical Liberal. But people who call themselves liberal have identifiable tendencies. Corporate control is the inevitable result of the activities and ideas that modern liberals (progressives) have invented and championed.

[Cyrus992]

How in the world you are getting freedom in sprawl?

The house you choose is limited by codes and restrictions where is isolated from the daily needs of the household.

Business cannot choose to be in a marketable mixed of retail and office

People cannot choose what tranpoortation choice they have and are forced to pay car payments, registration, DMV, maintenance, gas, insurance, land to store the cars, and traffic tickets.

People do not have the option to meet their social needs.

[Potlickerdotorg]

O'Toole's theory relies heavily on the creamy nougat center of oil.

[Cyrus992]

@Potlickerdotorg

Exactly, what is about sprawl that benefits O'Toole?

His special interest group that benefits from sprawl. He poses himself as a libertarian to get some attention when he support a development that controlled by building codes and land use segregation.

His Houston example is a joke, but mixed-use and diverse planning is profitable and marketable to developers, and residents.

Same can be mentioned about Wendell Cox

[fuggybootnling]

Best part? Kunstler's multiple choice question to this incredibly delusional douche...like seriously, you are saying that governments at all levels spend less on maintaining the GIGANTIC infrastructure of car culture than they do on mass transit?!!?! Like, really?!?!!? Really? No, really, fucking REALLY?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[nak807]

I'm surprised no one mentioned the higher cost of densely populated areas because of the greater demand to live there.

[vladabuba]

Rarely there is a chance to see two schools of thought together. Options to broad parts of our society are made available by cheap oil and energy. If there is no more cheap oil and energy then available options to choose from are much smaller than what we have known or 'used to' before. And forget about cars, what about food production which is 90% petrochemical based, health services, education. Even the basic services are based on premise of cheap energy.

[RpKingman]

O Toole is constantly talking about government planned new urbanism. I don't think Kunstler is in favor of that.

[Cyrus992]

@RpKingman

Thanks for pointing that out! Stop the myths!

[biry0501]

@RpKingman I noted that too. And, perhaps, the government should get out of the way and stop adding lanes onto highways.

[Cyrus992]

The concern is O Toole is BLAMING Kunstler and others for destroying freedom and taking property rights. Not really true, he is just against the LAYOUT of North American suburbs that are heavily drivable. We had mixed use, free market, pedestrian friendly planning with mostly single family homes back in the late 1800's to the early 1900's which compromises both O Toole's and Kunstler ideas.

[Cyrus992]

Both have great view points.. One Solution: Do planning from the late 1800's..