Lordship Salvation is Biblical Historic Protestant Teaching (Dr. James White)

[RomansGalatians]

"Fruit" merely means that you will reap the NECESSARY IMPLICATIONS from your false prophesy.

You can't say desire to drink poison, but not reap the necessary implications, death.

If you persist in a performance-based gospel, you will be judged by your performance, and thus reap the NECESSARY IMPLICATION, damnation!

[RomansGalatians]

Galatians 3:3. Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

My favorite verse in the Bible on sanctification.

[RomansGalatians]

Collossians 2:6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him...

Salvation and sanctification, both, are free, not earned and based on grace.

God gets all the glory for our salvation as well as for our sanctification. It is all by freely receiving grace and not trusting in any of our own useless works, EVEN AFTER SALVATION.

[FinalCountdown2Jesus]

@RomansGalatians Lordship salvation is not the belief that you're saved by works,,,its the idea that a saved man will bear good fruit,,, how do you know that you're saved? is there any way to know for sure that you're saved? The bible tells us to examine ourselves,,,examine ourselves for what? examine ourselves for the fruits of repentence

[RomansGalatians]

@FinalCountdown2Jesus Fruit is just another word for result or conclusion. It can mean works but in the context of false prophecy it means the results of the teaching. So, what are you going to say to Christ in the end? And what will be the result of your defense?

Will you stand before the Lord and say "God, I used your grace and then did good works, thus I am justified." or are you going to say "all my works are filthy rags, I am justified by Christ alone." ???

[RomansGalatians]

@RomansGalatians If you are to be judged by your own works rather than Jesus's works, you will not like the logical conclusion of that premise.

Btw, how perfect do you have to live? Do you sin at all during the day? Because that might be good to know what this new lowered standard is that God will judge us by. "God I just looked at porn I didn't commit adultery."

God: "Hmm, well, that's just quazi-sin, and I can see you've got a good heart. Lower the standard, the full Law need not be met"

[RomansGalatians]

@FinalCountdown2Jesus Just whisper one word about your own works when you stand before the holy Lord, and you will find out the end or fruits of the false prophecy called Lordship salvation.

[RomansGalatians]

@FinalCountdown2Jesus Let me put it this way: We are transformed by the renewing of our mind. That renewal is by the propositional revelation from God's words.

Thre first proposition that you start with is irrevocable salvation: once saved always saved. If, instead, you consult YOUR performance for truth, then you are no longer being transformed by the Word. You are conforming your beliefs to your works

If you abandon grace in sanctification teaching, then you don't believe in sola gratia

[RomansGalatians]

@FinalCountdown2Jesus The issue is whether you believe that your righteousness is TOTALLY ALIEN. That it is IMPUTED to you fully already, and it's not something that will happen in the future. It's something that happened 2000 years ago, and we just found out.

[RomansGalatians]

@FinalCountdown2Jesus And you might say "yes, but how do we KNOW that WE are saved?"

And I ask how do we know anything at all? What is the epistemology of Reformers? Empiricism? Or the propostional revelation from scripture.

I know because the Bible says so. Period.

[RomansGalatians]

The way that we are saved is the SAME WAY that we are sanctified. The same way a skid row drunk (totally hopeless of earning salvation) is saved by faith through grace, alone. That is how each step in his transformation takes place.

We tell a drunk that salvation is free and that when he ceases trusting in his works that he is humbled to throw himself on God's mercy. Well that is the same AFTER he is saved for each step in his sanctification.

[RomansGalatians]

I just don't see how this isn't legalism. The paradox is that legalism DOESN'T produce holiness in the life of an unbeliever. But belief in grace DOES produce holiness in the life of the believer.

"Repent and believe" means that we are to repent of unbelief. The only Sin with a capital S is UNBELIEF. Unbelief in what? Well, unbelief in the justification of the cross. Belief means that we are justified by grace alone.

[RomansGalatians]

Bible says: "No one who abides in Him sins. No one who sins has seen Him or knows Him."

Then White Says: "We know that we are talking about a life of sin. Doesn't it seem that repentance is a part of this."

IS IT talking about a "life" of sin? What about a habitual sin such as gluttony?

[RomansGalatians]

What does White mean by "purity is NOT an option"? @8:10.

Does he mean that under God's sovereignty that we will do as we are predestined.

Or does he mean that we have a choice to be pure or not be pure, but if we want to be a Christian, then that is our only option if we want to belong?

[RomansGalatians]

Repentance isn't so much "turning from our sins" as it is "turning from Sin". Disbelief is the only Sin. The other little s sins are symptoms. Disbelief is when you don't believe that the cross justifies you.

[jasonc0065]

You only posted James White.

[KeithTruth]

@jasonc0065 As I said: I posted the full debate for everyone in the description under the video. I can't post the full debate on youtube. Stop complaining - the other guy lost badly anyways. Go watch the full thing for yourself.

[jasonc0065]

You give only one side of a debate.

[KeithTruth]

@jasonc0065 No I posted the full debate in the description. And after hearing this and you are still not convinced of the Biblical truth of necessary sanctification then I don't know what else one can say. The Spirit enables those who belong to God to hear and receive the word of God. But you can't force someone to accept Biblical historic fact.

[cranmer1959]

Lordship salvation is nothing more than substituting sanctification for justification by faith alone. White's view is semi-pelagianism posing as Calvinism.

[paradoxincorporated]

@cranmer1959 Lordship salvation is nothing more than distinguishing between sanctification and justification rather than mixing them together (like the RCC and any other works based cultist or apostate movement). There is a real legal act in justifying the believer just as there is a real work of sanctification within the believer. To say otherwise, would be to disqualify the category of a false profession and works would not be a real act to follow the real work of regeneration.

[RomansGalatians]

@paradoxincorporated Well, but here's a paradox for you: It is only when we know that we are unconditionally forgiven that we begin to produce fruits of the Spirit. So, a person who knows that he is unconditionally forgiven will live a holier life on accident than someone, who focused on their works, will live on purpose.

The law and fear of wrath LEADS you to hopelessly throwing yourself on God's mercy. It has no other role in a Christian's life. Besides, the fruit of LS is not holiness.

[RomansGalatians]

@paradoxincorporated But then again, it cannot be taken in the other direction too far either. I don't really know how to discern between focusing on God's grace on the one hand, but having no fear of God's holiness on the other. It really is a paradox. But I am not Van Tilian, so they can be harmonixed. I just don't know how to.

[88momart]

Beautiful. Leave it to James White to present this issue, succinctly. Have been listening to every argument, from both sides, and especially note, that those who oppose L. S., do so with rude and mean spirited remarks. Where is the evidence of the "indwelling Spirit", in hostile remarks? Why is there no "correcting in meekness and humility", as Scripture teaches? Do we want to lead one another into truth, or just win an argument?

[Bewareofthewolves]

Great presentation by Dr White. Thanks Keith !

[ChristusVlCTOR]

I can't believe I'm about to say this, but other than the "All doesn't mean all" part, I AGREE WITH JAMES WHITE! The LORD Jesus, will not save any man He cannot Command, for He is the Author of Eternal Salvation to all those who OBEY HIM (Hebrews 5:9)

[SavedNations]

@ChristusVlCTOR I think we had a misunderstanding in our other conversation. I just noticed that you put emphisis on the word *refuse* in your other post. It was just the way you were coming at it made me think that you were stating that you HAD to be baptized to be saved. I agree totally with Dr. White here. This really cleared up my misunderstanding of your other comments. Thanks for clarifying.

[ChristusVlCTOR]

@SavedNations Hey mate, awesome. I just responded to the other thread, I had a feeling you might have been over looking the *refuses* I should readdressed it. Sorry for calling you a Wolf ;) I'm dealing with ALOT of false teaching here where I live, and I don't feel equipped to handle it, when I get online and see the chaos it overwhealms me, and sometimes my emotions get the better of me.

God bless you mate, take care.

[SavedNations]

No worries my friend. There are a lot of false teachers in general running around out there right now. I think we're all on dead-set ready right now because of it. I know I'm guilty of being a little too quick to jump here lately myself. I'm glad we got things worked out and are on the same page. May God bless you too.

[inspiralight]

Good video. I've just begun watching videos on both sides of the Lordship Salvation issue.

What I find incredibly revealing is that many of the videos arguing against "L.S." are filled with hate and anger condeming people as liars and heretics.

As for those arguing in favor of L.S. NOT A SINGLE ONE is spewing hate and anger towards those with a contrary opinion.

One is forced to conclude there is a shortage of true, loving christians among those angrily attacking Lordship Salvation.

[RockSprites]

@inspiralight The same thing got my interested in Calvinism and reformed theology; everyone was viciously attacking it, yet the arguments they were making were in clear contradiction to the word of God. No election? But it's right in the text!

[ChildOL]

The Apostle Paul said in Romans 7:19, "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." Even the Apostle Paul, commits sin.

“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.” ---Mark 1:4, The Bible does NOT mention salvation via baptism; but rather, the baptism of repentance. It is repentance that brings the remission of sins, repentance toward Jesus Christ, not a sinner ceasing from living in sin.

[ChildOL]

The problem is that Lordship Salvation confuses the ROOT of a believer's faith, i.e., faith in Christ (Romans 4:5), with the FRUIT of that faith, i.e., good works (James 2:18). The ROOT should bring forth the FRUIT; but the FRUIT cannot come before the ROOT. DO you understand the difference? Lordship Salvationists are demanding the FRUIT as a prerequisite to salvation. They are putting the cart before the horse.

[KeithTruth]

@ChildOL No Lordship proponant teaches that the full fruit comes before faith - however regeneration does and it progresses into a daily lived out righteousness and hatred of sin. One may be regenerated and believe on the gospel that he is sinful and needs a saviour only to grow in holiness a while later. The emphasis is that if you believe yourself saved and yet PERSEVERE in wickedness with no regard for your sin and no conviction to grow into your new self, then there is something wrong.

[ChildOL]

@KeithTruth

If a person claims to be a Christian but is living a wicked life, then I would sincerely doubt that person's salvation as well. However, I am not going to start teaching damnable heresy by saying that sinners must forsake their sins in order to be saved, and that if you're living in sin you must not saved.

[KeithTruth]

@ChildOL No one says that unless you forsake all your sins you're not saved - you're reading in to much friend. The Lordship position is that the Christian will not persevere in a mindset that states "because I am saved I am can live as wickedly as I want." Instead the Bible teaches that altough we slip up at times and even fall off track, that doesn't change the fact that your constant mindset is honoring Christ, living for him, seeking righeousness and seeking to submit to Christ.

[ChildOL]

"And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." -Mark 1:15

Carefully notice in Mark 1:15 above that Jesus didn't say “repent ye, and turn from your sins.” No, Jesus clearly stated, “repent ye, and BELIEVE THE GOSPEL.” It is plain to see that Biblical repentance is a change of one's mind concerning sin and unbelief, which causes that soul to turn in faith to the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness and salvation.

[KeithTruth]

@ChildOL Repent is seperated from believing the Gospel with the word "kai" or "and" which means you are doing two different things. You don't repent from not believing to believing, you repent of your sin AND also believe. A faith without repentance of sin is a faith that does not understand what He is believing since to have faith in Jesus is to recognize you are a wicked sinner in need of Jesus' righteousness and deliverance from depravity and sin - not only in statuts but also in daily living

[ChildOL]

@KeithTruth

There are only a few references in the Bible where the word "repentance" is used with sin. The Bible usually speaks of "the remission of sins"; but never commands anyone to repent from sins to be saved. Search the Bible and you will find that "repentance" is almost always mentioned with salvation; but it never tells us that forsaking sins is the way to be saved.

[ChildOL]

@KeithTruth

In Mark 1:4, John the Baptist speaks of "...repentance for the remission of sins"; NOT "repentance of sins." Acts 20:21 reads... "Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." Notice that Biblical repentance is TOWARD God. In Acts 11:21 we read, "And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord."

[KeithTruth]

@ChildOL repentance, metanoeō: "to change one’s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one’s past sins."

[ChildOL]

@KeithTruth

Salvation is not a process as some teach. You don't repent and then have faith in the Lord. There are not two steps to salvation; but rather, two parts to just one step. Repentance and faith are inseparable. In the Gospel of John, the word “believe” is mentioned 85-times; but the word “repent” is never mentioned even once. This clearly evidences that the sinner who believes on the Lord for salvation has also repented.

[KeithTruth]

@ChildOL No one claims salvation is a process. We say that upon truly believing you are justified once and for all and the evidnce of this rebirth that led to believing is persevering in faith and growing in holiness with the mindset of living for Christ despite our falls at times. Thats Lordship - so why distort it friend? Ask any proponant and all will reject the idea that full fruit is immediate, if you go off track God will chastize you and brng you to him and you will grow though

[ChildOL]

@KeithTruth

You continue to overly complicate the gospel and obfuscate the simple truth of the gospel.

My position regarding salvation can be summed up in one verse:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

[KeithTruth]

@ChildOL Fine have it your way, persevere going to the whore house and see what happens, not saying you do but it gets the point across. Would you be able to do that? If not U submit its because those saved persevere away from such a mindset. GB

[ChildOL]

@KeithTruth

You have created a straw-man in your argument. You allege that I believe people can happily indulge in open sin with no remorse whatsoever. That is simply not the case at all. God doesn't give anyone permission to sin (Romans 3:31).

As I said before the issue here is SALVATION and what is REQUIRED for someone to be SAVED, and that is to BELIEVE THE GOSPEL. Whether or not they continue to commit sin or go to a "whore house" as you put it is beside the point.

[KeithTruth]

@ChildOL We agree that faith alone is required for salvation and if its true faith it will justify you once for all. The difference is you seem to think faith is mere human assent as opposed to a superatural work of God that is part and parcel with a later new attitude towards life, repentance etc.

[ChildOL]

@KeithTruth

No, again you create a straw-man... I believe in order to be saved you must put your faith (belief & trust) in Jesus Christ's payment of your sins, not in your own works or abilities to save yourself or help save yourself.

We all sin... we all come short... we all need a Saviour, to save us from our sin and ourselves.

[ChildOL]

The commandment of the new testament is to believe the gospel

Liars and adulterers will be damned but saved liars and adulterers will be saved

It's that simple... anyone who adds to the simplicity of the gospel is preaching another gospel

[KeithTruth]

@ChildOL You'r not getting what is being said and you're being influence by 1800's Finney easy believism. Salvation is by faith alone yes, but to define faith as a past tense one time superficil acknowledgement is to distort what Scripture says about saving faith and what the true believers life is marked by because of truly exersizingsaving faith - its a faith that lasts aqnd perseveres and produces sanctification. Did you listen to the presentation?

[ChildOL]

@KeithTruth

You must understand that adding to what the scriptures plainly teach corrupts it's simplistic message and causes others to stumble and end up substituting works for faith. The gospel teaches you must be born again, by faith, in order to be saved. It is impossible to lose your salvation since in order to be saved in the first place you must be BORN AGAIN and undoing that is impossible by it's very nature.

Call it "easy believism" if you want, I call it the gospel.

[dragonzith]

see, I don't understand, why people have to debate about this and other things withing Christianity.

[KeithTruth]

@dragonzith Its because many are teaching the heresy of the Nicolaitans which Revelation 2 condemned. This heresy says that if you superficially believe and yet your life is conformed to pure wickedness you can expect to be saved. This view was condemned in the Bible. Therefore, I post presentations like this one to refute that and prove from the Bible that those who truly believe unto salvation are made into new creatures and will not persevere in wickedness.

[dragonzith]

@KeithTruth Thanks Keith. I first commented because I watch this video like 3 times and couldn't really understand what Dr. White was talking about. But now its clear =)

[IAteBrownies]

Great post, thanks Keith.

[orlibonurb]

No, it's not. Lordship salvation is NOT Biblical, no matter how hard you want to try.

For God so loved the world that whosoever REPENTS OF THEIR SINS shall be saved ?! Do you know this verse ? Me neither. I really could go on and on, but it's futile. A willingly deceived person can not be enlightned at all.

Believe / put your trust in Jesus and you will be saved. Go as you are. You'll THEN be born again and start producing good fruit.

[KeithTruth]

@orlibonurb There's no contradiction between affirming that whoever believes in Jesus will be saved, with affirming that those who believe unto salvation are made new creatures who strive to live for Him. Do you deny that repentance is a necessary componant of salvation? "Luk 13:3 ...unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." If you don't believe that people saved by faith get created into new creatures explain: Heb 12:14 "Strive...for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord"

[stack45ny]

@orlibonurb "Go as you are..." I can only take this to mean that you would tell new believers to not worry at all about their sinful ways. If so, I would highly encourage you to read all of Romans 6 very carefully: "16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?" God does not FORCE anyone to be obedient.

[KeithTruth]

This is one of the best presentations arguing for the Lordship view out there. Praise Christ.