Potential Flaw in the Freethinking Community

[ASKaPHYSICIST]

I agree 100% thanks for posting.

Gotta love the ending "This video seems a lot better than the others I made. Thanks for wa..." :D

[TheRyander]

First I thumbed down

Then I kept listening to the end

Then I thumbed up

[markitymark90]

0:35-0:45

that's called ad hominem for those who don't know

[Kerouac0deciple]

Our flaw is their flaw too.

Once you commit yourdelf to an idea and all of its implications, once you've read all about it and heard every oposing argument, you have tricked yourself into a sense of security that doesn't exist.

Spirituality, the soul, and the true nature of concioussness almost become taboo to the "rational freethinker"

[TheLizwalker]

I dont think we should bitch slap the mo foes....So very well said and pretty damn accurate.

The minute, the nanosecond you become so base that you call someone a retard for beliveng something...you become the name you just used.  Fight the thought not the thinker!

[TowerGuardDM]

I really appreciate your sincerity here. I attended a "Freethinking" group in my community only to find it filled with hatemongers. There was nothing free about it. They lived in cages of venom and vitriole and spent little time thinking, engaging, building relationships, seeking understanding and wisdom. All they were interested in was this militant view and when I questioned it and offered otherwise, I was ostracized for it. Very non-productive and non-progressive, just the same spew.

[beermn56]

I think we should bitch-slap the ignorant godtard fuckers. They deserve it.

[TroyxPry]

see all the stuff in the background, you got like 500 bongs and shit.....you think you do these videos bc your high and you cant stop talking lol?

[pauswa1966]

This is also applies to any belief, not just religious. Also, in romantic relationships. Whenever someone starts saying, "You...", it's not going to be good. The best way to be a free thinker is to say, "I believe this and that because I..." That is what I do, anyway. I'm not perfect, but I'm happy to learn new things and listen to others' views. Often, however, they are condascending that I will "not to go heaven" for thinking their way. Whatever.

Good video. Peace to you.

[Bigwill0208]

I did enjoy the video though.. Nice one (:

Also, try k-holing. That's a REALLY thought provoking experience. You'll know what i mean if you try it..

[Bigwill0208]

I think you're missing my point mate..

Ultimately i find if you ever go "deep" with physics, philosophy or even psychology iv found. You just go back to infinity. Which no human can comprehend, so i shalnt bother..

I think a more thought provoking idea is this:

Trees don't know we exist, they don't have the senses to accommodate or comprehend our existence. Perhaps we are the same. In fact i find it quite convincing that we live amongst many other living things in the same realm.

[apathyinmortalform]

The whole atheist community on youtube does nothing but intellectually bitch-slap not only theists, but deists, gnostics, agnostics, etc. You can't 'give people what religion gives them'. Even exoteric rel. has some function. Those w/ more esoteric 'beliefs', like myself usu. don't bother to argue. Descartes already knew about the physical and chemical nature of regular human consciousness. The idea that one may not accept the theory of natural selection w/o being an atheist is absurd.

[apathyinmortalform]

...to evolve and time and chance will continue to be as inbuilt into reality and i have to admit a quirk. stochastic processes, the very idea of randomness convinces me of the existence of god but the argument behind that is seemingly abdruse.

[apathyinmortalform]

franklin and voltaire considered themselves libre-penseurs w/o being atheists, and i only mention these examples, as fledgling as science & tech were in their time, as proof that if some think freely they may come to any imaginable conclusion including say , deism. some rabbis i've read insisted on evolutionary theories as far back as the middle ages. you sound like a social planner but you should perhaps be aware that many theists see no conflict w/ natural selection. humans will continue...

[pescadoygamba]

Hmmm I think your wrong,i think that religious people understand bitchslapping best...however i did only see the first 2 mins,i had to go listen to a motley crue song then.

[mounatinman157]

Nice bongs, you must be a grower with that drying rack hanging there, nice.

[999Thip]

FOR THE SON OF MAN IS GOING TO COME IN THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER WITH HIS ANGELS, AND THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS..

MATTHEW 16:27

[SolRosenberg84]

@999Thip

PRAISE JEBUS, THE ONE WHO TAUGHT US THAT CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL.

Writing in caps lock doesn't make you look loud, it makes you look insane or stupid. Stop it, and please tell other Christians to stop it too.

[999Thip]

@SolRosenberg84 does it bother you,?? and why ?

[SolRosenberg84]

@Bigwill0208

Funny, I've never dropped acid. I've done shrooms though, and absolutely loved it. Best experience I've had by far.

Science creates models of better accuracy over time based on an accumulation of physical evidence.  We find the patterns in nature, and make testable predictions based on that. The models we make are not reality itself, just useful and accurate ways of interpreting it that fit the evidence.

[SolRosenberg84]

@Bigwill0208

A good example of a question science cannot answer at the moment, or perhaps even in principle, is this - Everything in the universe is made of a common "stuff", given the moniker "energy" by many people; What is it? What is that "stuff"?

There might be an answer to this, but I seriously question whether we could understand it at all. We are made of the stuff, and all interactions we have ever made or observed were all this stuff. How could we understand something that isn't it?

[ASKaPHYSICIST]

@Bigwill0208 lol, comprehend-able? Are you serious?

[pbrskater26]

Freethinking is basicly thinking for yourself and not letting a supernatural being think for you, which is what the traditinal christian theology wonts; to think for yourself is self rightioius and herricy. Thats why i'm no longer christian

[latterdayhertic]

the flaw with the freethinking community is the freethinkers themselves, just like a revolution or a political idea, we are all flawed and full of ego.

[skywize]

ok...a few things...

One, I think you may need to up the meds a bit, lol. But it makes you a great public speaker!

Two, you should look into the Jewish Atheist movement. It's a group of people devoted to truth an science that have taken their traditions with them regardless of faith. It's rather cool.

Three, you should read the Neo-Tech Discoveries. It's an Atheist book written by a genius....mind you, slightly insane, but genius. You'll love it.

[fortruth8989]

You are smart and funny... but incorrect.

[ufee]

While the "eternal ego" doesn't exist, I support pursuing it. I like being alive, so I am going to support any medical advances that help us increase our lifespan.

[LaerenMisha]

Not quite sure this is where he's going regarding the eternal ego, since medical advances are geared towards preserving the physical life, whereas the eternal ego just assumes the consciousness will continue after death (therefore, why waste time prolonging physical life).

It's the same argument of why Xtians don't just commit suicide, if they firmly believe they are going to a better place when they die. Surely they can just ask for forgiveness and be saved right at the end, so why not?

[MonkayMan]

Nicely put! 5*s I spot an Arizer behind you : P

[deftone86]

are those bongs on your shelf? lol

[eltamin1966]

Irrespective of whether religion is just wishful thinking (I suspect it is), it may propagate useful values encouraging people to fight injustice:

Christian vicars played an important role in toppling East Germany's dictatorship in 1989 when they encouraged non-violent mass demonstrations, thereby inspired by the peaceful role-model Jesus. And Stauffenberg, who's bomb narrowly failed to kill Hitler in 1944 (see Singer's film "Valkyrie") was also

motivated by Christian beliefs.

[SolRosenberg84]

Unfortunately, it was also Christianity that allowed many Germans to get behind the whole "Fuck the Jews" thing. The holocaust can easily be viewed as an extension of the pogroms that had been going on in Europe since the middle ages.

Religion can be used for a driving force for good, but can so easily be used to justify complete evil.

[eltamin1966]

I think genocide is never spontaneous, it's always ordered by the state leadership and centrally planned by bureaucrats. But yes, the anti-Jewish propaganda by Christian clergics over the centuries ("They murdered God") has made the Jews at least outsiders in the eyes of the majority: "They do not belong to us". And when the Nazis systematically isolated and eventually killed the Jews, too few identified with them, the majority remained indifferent. And the killers had a free hand.

[kokofan50]

Your wrong look at Africa for spontaneous genocide. Mostly the tutu and tuties (my spelling is most likey wrong can't find it)

[eltamin1966]

@kokofan50

I also read there had been unusually strong hatred between many Hutu and Tutsi in Ruanda. Nevertheless the genocide of 1994 was exactly planned for month's by Hutu radicals before they used an occasion to set it in motion.

Btw the UN stood completely aside and played a poor role during these heinous incidents. Bill Clinton later said it was the greatest mistake during his presidency that the West were just onlookers and did not interfere.

[kokofan50]

thanks for informing me about that then

[turtlen]

@SolRosenberg84 same with athiesm

[1mind1humanity]

@eltamin1966 That is a very functionalist view. But those who side with conflict theory, like myself, think that religion is an institution that works primarily for the benefit of the ruling class. Napolean Bonaparte recognized that religion was wonderful because it was what kept the poor from killing the rich. Furthermore, emphasizing the functionality of religion does not imply the validity of religious beliefs concerning the supernatural. One of the wonderful things about humans, is ...(cont)

[1mind1humanity]

@1mind1humanity ...our ability to actively adapt to our environment through culture. If religious paradigms begin to fail as valid and useful approaches to reality they must either be discarded or else be kept around like vestigial organs of society, stunting the human ability to adapt.

[eltamin1966]

@1mind1humanity

Do you refer to my post about East Germany and Stauffenberg? I only cited facts, reality is complex and often contradictory, and cannot just be pressed into an orthodox theory. I usually prefer empirical evidence over theories who pretend to "explain the world".

Power control is most important, without it any regime is tempted to use violence, even up to heinous mass murder - no matter if the system is religious, communist or fascist.

[PiratGeneralen]

Cool stuff

[jrev37]

you got it love it when he says there should be zero ego when discussing these things and then he says "the concept of the eternal ego has to FUCKING DIE"

[MarkComrade]

I've always thought people make fun of the way people look or speak or sound rather than make fun of what they say which is usually quite stupid.

[MarkComrade]

In other words, they should just say how stupid or bogus someone's statements in a video are, rather than making fun of something the person has really no control over like their voice, looks, or a speech impediment. .

[Jmanlol]

I really dig what you said about the flower. I find the simple beauty of a flower but when I found out the complex process that it takes to make that simple beauty made it ten times more amazing to me.

[xXRoBeRtXHaYdNXx]

It's pronounced "coin". At least that's how I pronounce it. BTW "why creationism has to die" sounds like it should be a real book. write a book and title it that, pleeeeeeaaaaseeee????!!!!!????­

[meowsthi]

Is this some sort of repentance video where you are suddenly realizing ad hominem is wrong? Sol, buddy, you've slung insults at fundamentalists since the first video I watched from you. Clearly you are of the opinion that Atheists are more intelligent than Christians, which is just a ridiculous claim. Ridiculous and insulting.

[SolRosenberg84]

Well, no. I don't think atheists are automatically smarter than Christians. Claiming your philosophy or allegiances does not boost your stats in real life.

Intelligence is way too complicated and compartmentalized to make broad sweeping generalizations. Even if someone is a damn simpleton when it comes to school smarts they may make up for it with other cognitive functions in other environments more useful to their day to day life.

[SolRosenberg84]

A more reasonable claim would be that anti-reality beliefs such as creationism cannot survive a real education. One could also argue that the more educated in the sciences one is the less likely they are to find religious dogma compelling. This is certainly supported by studies looking at religiosity between the general public, the main scientific community, and the upper echelons of the scientific community.

[meowsthi]

While I must agree with most everything you say, I have to at least sway slightly from your thinking in one point. I can not say I've recieved the benefits of 8 years of college, but science has always been a favored subject of mine. I pick up it's reasoning quite easily, and still, "knowledgeable" as I am, I love spirituality. There is no mass religion I could ever claim as mine, except perhaps discordianism, but I still love the questions. I find the questions compelling.

[SolRosenberg84]

My only problem with your position is your stance on spirituality and science - you seem to suggest the two are incompatible in your comment.

I would argue the complete opposite. I've found that my understanding of science has greatly increased my feelings of connection to everything and everyone around me. Understanding my deep and profound connection to the cosmos and everything in it has given me a sense of peace I wish could have been discovered years ago.

[meowsthi]

Oh heavens no! Science and Spirituality are deeply connected. I wouldn't have it any other way, myself. I just don't value one over the other. I like them both the same, as they both serve many of the same purposes in life. Both are just machines of answering questions. Both are wrong, both are right. Both are fun, and both will always be with humanity. Religion and Science are two sides of the same candle, and I am its wick.

[pilby]

on giving people what they need:

i agree that that feeling of awe and connectedness is important, which is why passionate "spiritual" scientists like Sagan and Feynman are so helpful.

community is also very necessary. agreed.

but can we also make people be comfortable with the idea of ceasing to exist?

can we make people comfortable with the idea that there is no referee? no ultimate justice? no benevolent guiding hand? no destiny?

[meowsthi]

Further more, can we get people comfortable with the fact that they don't know anything? Can the scientists out there get behind the fact that everything they "know" might be completely backwards? Can anyone understand that knowledge is as much an illusion as intellect? Can we convince the world to just worship the questions, and not defend meaningless answers like they are absolute truth? Can we ever understand that questions unite, an answers divide?

[Jmanlol]

I do respect your point of view however I cant totally agree with your claim that answers divide. An answer can only divide us when people refuse to except them.

[meowsthi]

But you see, that is the root of all the problems. Humans are different. We are different culturally, and we are different mentally. There is no answer that can ever apply to everyone. Once we start laying down answers like concrete fact, we begin the process of division. When we have only questions, and speculation, everyone can debate, because no one is right. But once you have even 1 person claiming to the know the truth, sides have to be taken and lines have to be drawn.

[Jmanlol]

So do you believe the capital of Ohio to be Columbus?

[meowsthi]

I understand what you might be getting at here, but this also works for my side of the argument. A great many people believe that it's the capitol, however that does not make it so. In reality, it's just dirt. Dirt that humans have given a name. Geography is a perception of Humanity, not an actual truth.

[ghostdog564]

we should not attack what people think, rather HOW people think if we can acheive that the latter will take care of itself.

[donnachaidh]

"Potential flaw" is too polite and tentative a way to put it. It's a serious, very visible crisis in the very prospect of there ever being a "free thinking community," and like most major large scale social problems people are either in denial about it, see it and don't know what can really be done to remedy it on any large scale, or see it but don't grasp why it's a problem.

[TheJesusrox]

Praise jesus!

hey friends, leave away from this fag and join my channel and we can pray together!!!

[thestranger11]

Really now?..

[atticana]

You say that it was your brain chemistry that led you from religion to atheism. No sir, it was your experiences, your reading and your reasoning that led you away from religion (mine led me the other way). So your brain chemistry was simply a tool in the service of your intellect. An indication I feel that mind precedes matter and goes beyond it, even through and beyond the gates of death.

[SolRosenberg84]

I made a video response for this comment specifically.

/watch?v=sZNjzwVHs84

[skewed12]

Whilst I agree with you in that the damaging parts of religion need to be removed, I oftentimes find myself thinking that what one might characterize as "damaging" another, like the religious, certainly might not.

Even if the religious recognizes that some of the religious laws that he forces himself to keep DO cause him a lot of stress, I think that he believes that disobeying these laws would bring to his mind much more stress, seeing as how he believes in Heaven.

Thus, he does as he does.

[DonQuixotedeKaw]

If we were talking about people who are actually religious, your opinion would be 100% valid. We are not. Theocrats use religion as an excuse to manipulate people to political ends. We actually need to attack these psychopaths, MORE. At least the ones who show their hands, as knowing spewers of propaganda. If there is doubt, give benefit. If not, show no mercy, expose the scumbags to their own sheep. Agreed?

[xXSceilusXx]

User FFreethinker should mirror this... post as a video response to one of their videos so they can expose it more?

[destronia123]

Any perceived value of religion is a false value.

It's like trying to feed yourself by having to pay $1000 for a grain of rice.

[AmGoDDoGmA]

gr8 vid... and I look forward to all of your vids. Hit the bong once for me, peace!

[helgihg]

I not understand what you're saying, but why it's so ridiculously difficult to describe it without at least going on a tangent about something that the viewer can't see how is connected.

I got it, anyway. And I agree.

[freedom0f5peech]

Excellently presented points... especially regarding the "spiritual oneness" aspect. I might call it "Sagian Oneness" (as in Carl Sagan's description of feeling cosmic consciousness through science and understanding).

[Saalvadaar]

I wholly agree! This is the one thing I've always seen this problem too, and it worries me.

[creationofself]

Belief isnt the problem. It's the insecurity of one's beliefs. It's the domineering conquering mentality which is derived from this insecurity. Being validated is perfectly natural but through these means it will always remain ravenous. One will never be filled. I lay a large factor of blame on the immaturity which views the world in opposition to one's self. What the world requires is more personal awareness and foresight - something which, unfortunately, can't be taught.

[atticana]

We know that humanity can live without science and even be happy, Old Tibet or the South Sea islanders for example. But we do NOT know that humanity can live without religion. That is an untested hypothesis for which there is no hard evidence. And you suggest that spirituality is the product of brain chemistry...so was it changes in your brain chemistry that turned you from a religious teenager into an atheistic young man?

[SolRosenberg84]

>so was it changes in your brain chemistry that turned you from a religious teenager into an atheistic young man?

Yes, of course. Brain chemistry dictates even love. Every amazing soaring high man can feel is ultimately the result of extremely complex chemistry going on in the brain. Everyday experience and all the evidence we have so far supports this.

[wesleyfilms]

Very internesting, now im going to track down that book.

[Akatam0t0ma]

While I sympathize with much of what you say, I must disagree with you. Of course, everyone can use whatever approach one sees fit, but as for me, seeing the immense pride true believers(Mostly, but not limited to, true believers of the Islamo-Christian kind)take in being so utterly stupid, brainwashed, ignorant and disconnected from reality really makes it impossible for me.

Please see this video by the late Sarahon06(Which I will also post as a response to this video):

watch?v=mvE3sMTfoqY

[Akatam0t0ma]

Did I say "the late Sarahon06"? I stand corrected, for he has resurrected! Hoorah! :-D

[agnosticman77]

One of your most insightful videos.

[cyxgun]

I think the central dangers of religion all stem from the faith meme.

My primary goal as a freethinker is to show as many people as possible that faith is no different than make-believe.

It's so obvious that someone of another religion's faith is just self delusion... how can they not see that they are no different?

[xenoneo]

Although you believe that my view of evolution and religion working together is a weak argument, I'll take it as a compliment that you think it's at least better than closed minded creationists.

You don't understand it, and I cant fault you on that, because there are very few of us to explain.

That and most of us don't feel the need to explain to creationists that wouldn't listen.

I personally feel great empathy with atheists, I just don't believe everything that they do.

Good luck on your quest

[lewismurray1]

Americans do that all the time on anything patriotic to another country

[NeedsEvidence]

Well spoken, Sol.

[bobster451]

Another great book is "Your Inner Fish" by Neil Shubin.

A fun and excellent read.

[xKryynx]

Even if we, as a species, begin to work together and think logically to weed out Religion, the first time a large cataclysmic event happens where millions of people are separated and die, religion is going to be the thing that most people turn to. We could work as hard as we want to change the future but it's inevitable, Religion is far more comforting than the harshness of science and people will grow to need it in times of great suffering.

[bamboo4tameshigiri]

"...people will grow to need it in times of great suffering."

*weak minded people*

[Nades129]

Religion gives: Community, catharsis, purpose. But the negatives outnumber the positive.

[kalsolarUK]

very well said!

[Antiks72]

Sol - Ad hominem is the only thing I have for them, because they (creationists et. al) refuse to listen. You can spend hours going around and around with these people.  They're a waste of time.

[SolRosenberg84]

I'd agree to a degree. The majority of creationists are held in a perpetual state of deliberate ignorance due to social pressure and personal brainwashing, and will never change. But, we cannot forget that humans are not static beings, and some of the people locked in the creationist mindset can indeed change. All we can try to do is sow the seeds of change, and hope they flower in a few individuals.

[WookhieManJoe]

good luck with

your seeds of change as always will get killed or runover by the weeds of community as you said before its either you get to the person first or its gonna be tough one to crack

[Anon1696]

This is why I hate church burning.

Church burners think that it actually accomplishes something significant to their cause.

Really, they're just attacking the people and not the ideology, while possibly strengthening the ideology itself.

[rationalhumano]

***** and faved.

[METAL612]

awesome video. its very true. also fear and loathing is awesome so is Thor

[AGrandt]

That is the problem in a brawl, the original issue is drowned in man-to-man fist fights

[AcanLord]

i shall pronounce it coin.

[kiddhitta]

i find that Catholics are the worst for expressing their opinion and then shutting down yours. i dont know how many times i've tried to have a conversation with someone who believes in god and them just say no, no, i cant believe you dont believe in god, thats just ridiculous, like wow. and whenever i try to put my point across they're like nope, nope thats stupid.

[SandInTheWind7]

AMAZING POINTS! especially how excessive individualism brings out the ape lol maybe it is the ape... haha. All human cultures developed very similar structures of world view-- religion. Religion obviously gave humans something necessary or helpful to survival, but now it seems the scientific method has led us to a more direct experience with the cosmos then religion ever has.

[gweegwee3]

i like you you are smart XD

Again, and to think i just happened upon one of your videos randomly.... lucky me.

[smartwarlord]

Since when do the atheists represent Freethinking? That's insanity. The freethinking realm is only opened to an individual who accepts there is one God.

[JOKERSFREAK]

Right.......

Now which "god" would you like to deny? Zeus? Allah? Yahweh? You can't claim that there is only ONE god if you can't even prove A god.

The freethinking realm is only open to people who use rational thought to understand the world and reality. Something you haven't done........

[grits011]

Great video. I feel the same way. One of the biggest problems with religious dogma is the way it separates people that aren't that different. Sometimes I feel like the atheist community is doing just that. You can't reason with someone if you build a wall of intolerance around you. Real communication can only happen when people lower their guard, and you can't gain someone's trust by calling them an idiot for not believing what you do.

[chessdawgz]

Beautifully put, sir

[TelevisionPirate]

Oh that's right now I remember what it was too... It was when Spain found the Mayans Civilization, and they burnt all the books, and not much has been recovered from that.. It was 500 years ago, but still.... We would have a lot more answers if peoples superstition non sense didn't always get in the way. Even Carl Sagan himself said it...

For better or for worse if it wasn't for religion we'd be hundreds even thousands of years ahead. It's also kind of sad people got in trouble for ideas!

[Signofthedollar]

Leggo my ego! Ayn Rand's rational egoism is good stuff. It starts with the law of identity, A is A.

[TelevisionPirate]

Carl Sagan's The Varieties of Scientific Experience A Personal View of the Search for God... Ahh... That's better ... lol ..

READ ALL OF SAGAN'S BOOKS!

That man has made me a lot more understanding about where others are coming from and why people choose religion.

I've been getting into history lately, and the more I hear about the idiotic shit that went on. Like trashing years worth of history because they thought it was possessed or something! You hear all the time! It drives me INSANE!

[ubergossen]

Yeah, in a way, everything is more interesting when you understand it.

Really, it's quite impossible to think deeply about something you have no understanding of because there's nothing to think about.

Without thinking deeply about something, it's impossible to be truly interested in it.

[MicahBuzan]

agree with everything you said, well done. this video is a keeper.

[TelevisionPirate]

I'm coming to that conclusion too, I use to be all about religion AND religious people are stupid, and pathetic. I use to let me anger rule me, but I hold back now and most of the time I don't even argue with creationist anymore.. Bcuz really whats the point?

99.99999999 percent of the time your not going to change that persons mind on the spot especially with something like this.

By the way sol, Ive been reading that other book you mentioned. Sagan's Personal view... running outta room! lol

[TheAtheistApostle]

Right on the money, I've been feeling the same way lately. To be honest, I've caught myself doing this quite a bit. An anger seems to arise after a while of discussing with the religious. If an impact is ever to be made "attacking the messenger" tactics have to end. Great vid 5/5

[flawbertrobert]

yeah this makes me disappoint. I think there are too many people out there in any debate who just end up insulting each other rather than actually making significant arguments. Also, there is a problem with people just taking other ideas and regurgitating, i.e. people reading about evolution, then spewing out what they learned with no real comprehension of what it is that they are arguing, which I think is necessary.

[10sodot]

well said.

exactly how i see it.