Hungry Old People: Rand Paul vs. Bernie Sanders featuring Al Franken

[jneil2007]

How about this Bernie. It's unconstitutional, let's end the empire, phase out welfare at the federal level and let states phase out their own programs. And let's start producing again. The alternative is total abject poverty. Ron Paul 2012!

[TheBoxingCannabyte]

@jneil2007, How about we actually follow models that are WORKING in other countries. Socialized medicine and education work because we the people have a say in it. The LAST thing I want is a state deciding what women's abortion rights are because RP wants to appeal Roe V Wade. He also believes that we never needed de-segregation laws because capitalism would've solved that. Explain to me if money=motivation for medicine and education, then why are countries with socialied versions doing better?

[TheBoxingCannabyte]

@jneil2007,

Also, I've been asking and asking Ron Paul supporters (not economists, not asking for references, I want YOUR opinion) on why and how the gold standard would work, on why and how a bottom line of for-profit businesses in insurance companies are better off denying people coverage based on pre-existing conditions. On why/how people who are disabled should be taken care of. This idea that we should have to go around finding charities to survive is absurd!

[TheBoxingCannabyte]

@jneil2007, What is bankrupting this country is our massive defense budget, our continious corner-cutting in education, the ridiculous price of college. This insane idea that people in Germany, England, and Canada have lower survival rates of cancer because of socialized medicine when there isn't ONE bankruptcy in any of those places for medical emergencies- this insane idea that 18 year olds should wrack up 100k bills for simply wanting an education-all capitalist ideals. Capitalism isn't

[jneil2007]

@TheBoxingCannabyte Can you finish a thought before going to the next one? One of your comments shows you have no clue about how insurance is really supposed to work. Insurance is supposed to measure risk. Making insurance companies, regardless of conditions take care of people would cause insurance to go bankrupt because nobody would purchase it until they were sick!!!! This is like saying I don't have to buy hurricane insurance until the storm is a category 5 and 25 miles of the coast.

[jneil2007]

@TheBoxingCannabyte I agree we spend too much on overseas nonsense. But I will say this, Germany would have serious trouble with their social programs without the U.S. subsidizing it!!! We pay for their defense and have since the end of WW2. We had good health care in this country before LBJ decided to create medicare and medicaid. Also you must look at the monetary system, federal reserve, which allows government to spend more than they collect in taxes, thus devaluing the currency since 1913.

[TheBoxingCannabyte]

-a fucking panacea for societies problems. I don't know if you're one of those people who flips shit every time you here the world "Social, socialized, socialist" but you sure sound like it. Thomas Jefferson wanted the constitution re-written every 17 years to account for the technological growth. We can't be reading the Constitution like it's some infallible document! It isn't! It was written by rich, white slave owning men. Who happened to be brilliant visionaries, but men nontheless

[TheBoxingCannabyte]

like it or not, modern day societies do best when we don't allow corporations to get "too big to fail" when we have a social safety net, when we aren't appealing shit like Roe V Wade. Ron Paul has my support on a few things: Ending the drug war, prison industrial complex, legalizing drugs. Give me a valid argument for why black people would've recieved rights naturally through capitalism. Please, I'm genuinely curious. Because this stuff doesn't make any sense to me.

[HayastanArmenia]

@TheBoxingCannabyte in a true capitalist society (anarcho capitalist society), if police do not get tax money and rely on customers to earn their living, they will have to accept all races. if they turn down a minority, they will not only be deprived of that minority's money but they will be boycotted by people who are against racism. if you own a business, you must be equal to all kinds of people to succeed. letting govt handle things like education, healthcare, law enforcement etc. is flawed

[HayastanArmenia]

@TheBoxingCannabyte (pt 2) for three reasons: 1. if people have to pay for these things and rarely use them, they are getting their money taken for no reason. 2. govt is made to protect people's rights or property; you do not have a right to someone else' time or services, therefore education, healthcare, and all other services are not rights. 3. govt cannot be trusted to monopolize all these industries. i go to public school right now. it is absolutely awful. only 2/8 classes teach me useful

[HayastanArmenia]

@TheBoxingCannabyte (pt 3) information and i learn almost no life skills. i'd much rather have my parents not throw their money away at such shitty education and instead pay a bit more for a more thorough, useful, interesting education (a private one). thats why i think private industries can handle things much, much better than govt. sorry for the long response, you just said it doesnt make sense to you lol.

[SpookeyR]

@svv: "The gov't has screwed up everything it has ever touched."

...volume of mail, much more so than they are doing now, &, very likely, higher prices! Ppl would switch to "Direct Deposit", "Online Bill Pay", etc., to avoid whatever bs that would be created by such a takeover & ppl will scream for the return of the USPS.

Just bc the USPS is fucked doesn't mean that the gov't screw's everything up! The FBI, for example, work's quite well. And you are a politically ignorant moron!

Nice FAIL.

[jayfarrock]

id be pissed if i was the guy sitting with that chart in my face

[Guambahjohn]

@jayfarrock I think it is a Rand Paul staffer or intern.

[dglass81]

@Guambahjohn of course

[dglass81]

@jayfarrock HAHHA

[jimberkt]

Obviously 2 Billioin isnt enough if America has all those poverty problems. Why not give them twenty billion like that guy said? But only 20 Billion. I don't want to save any more people than 20 Billion can save.

[spencerchef]

fuck the pauls, ron and rand. they arte both racist misinformed fools.

[anthonyn31]

Go Bernie Sanders!!!

[JeffersonianTV]

Bernie Sanders is a communist fool

[HBSanta]

@JeffersonianTV And you're an ignorant twat if you honestly believe that.

[hapz3000]

@JeffersonianTV so this video proves that he is no different that kim jong ill or fidel castro?

[creepycraig73]

We now have a person in OUR SENATE named after Ayn Rand. His Bible is Atlas Shrugged. You really think he cares about anyone besides himself and his own immediate needs? Can't "enslave" you to do your job as a doctor, Rand? You took an oath to treat people not just treat people when you see fit or have the time. Any doctor that sees our for-profit healthcare system as a good thing is morally bankrupt and part of the problem. Altruism. Look it up, RAND.

[H1TMANactual]

@creepycraig73 Altruism last I checked was supposed to be voluntary.

[operationNOBO]

It is shocking that some of these people on here believe that the government can solve all their problems. If you support that notion, it is not much different than a child bitching about not getting it's desert after finishing dinner. You are saying, I want you to make decisions for me and in return I will follow what you have put forth. That is completely pathetic and total JV status

[SvenBenson]

Sanders is very principled; just slightly misguided on how to deliver it. How does someone in Washington understand the various individual behaviors of millions of people who are struggling for reasons that are all unique to their current circumstance. The problem is people's morals have switched from actually helping others in need justifying that the government will take care of them. Let me tell you; I know people who have died waiting for their medications because of the DEA; It's disgusting

[BonerMaroner]

This has little to do with food stamps and a lot about how (R)epublicans really feel about the poor. Most of us work hard and benefit from our work, but letting your neighbor go hungry is just another sickness in a (R) Congress.

[MIDWEST507REPIN]

sounds lik a bunch of emotional demagoguery to me...

[ohevshalomel]

My favorite part was Senator Sanders' repeated references to "emergency homes".

[disporting]

If people who have the resources to feed themselves, then they wouldn't be HUNGRY AND ASKING FOR FOOD.

[gulbirk]

"""some of us believe in the ability of private charity to solve problems"" Ok, then would you mind explaining why that private charity doesnt exist when loads of people obviosly have much more money then they need?

[utubehayter]

@gulbirk

Private charity requires private wealth in the hands of producers. But when you have a system that benefits politically connected at the expense of everyone else. Free market types warned them but re-distributionists (Union types, environmentalists, socialists, Marxists, nationalists, militarists) dismissed them as "kooky" and greedy capitalists.They drove the system full throttle into what we have today. Now that you have wrecked a free society, you find the gall to complain?

[gulbirk]

@utubehayter Hahahaha- So you are trying the ""No one has enough money to give to charity"". Sorry, there is no correlation between whats going on now and the left. THe last left winged president you have was so long ago. And one the most left winged you have ever had (FDR), why didnt he ruin it? The country was better under him, even though there were more regulation.

[utubehayter]

@gulbirk

No, I am not saying "no one has enough money".. but if you institute a welfare system, the uncharitable and the crooks are the ones endin up with sizable amounts of money. And no just not being leftist isn't enough. Tell me the last time leftist instituted policies have not been enforced. Many of FDR's measures like price support by reducing supply, are still active and prohibiting economic growth, not to mention the MIC FDR's distraction war, WW2, created...

[goldsmithstudent]

@TheCommonManUSA Its funny that you think that i think your opinion is worthless. I never once said that. All i said was that opinions mean nothing. Now its funny that you took what i said as negative when its JUST MY OPINION and it also means nothing.You Made it negative. But if you pay attention you will notice that most beliefs are based in the opinions of someone else. All opinions are nothing Thats why the socialist system is and will fail. No Facts !! Facts= Freedom

[goldsmithstudent]

@TheCommonManUSA Ah your seeing it!!! thats all opinions are!!!! Its repeating jargon you or i have been told.

[goldsmithstudent]

@TheCommonManUSA Thats your opinion and we know opinions mean nothing:)

[goldsmithstudent]

@TheCommonManUSA And we know that OPINIONS mean NOTHING

[Cookynator]

A mighty hot mug of sit the fuck down served up straight from Vermont

[NoFearOfGod]

That Rand Paul is one disgusting little toad.

[Neosaigo]

The funniest part about nations with universal healthcare is that even the poor is healthy enough to find a job, and thus the poor become capable of becoming a bit better off over time.

Private charity is strange in that it only goes so far as to keep them barely alive. So the poor stay poor no matter how much charity they receive. I suppose that is why the charity circle doesn't have an end in sight.

[Thatmakessense356]

@Neosaigo Maybe it'd go a little farther if you didn't take so much money from people before they could donate it. If liberals spent as much time encouraging people to donate to charity as they did fighting to force them to pay, we'd probably have many, many fewer poor people.

[bluesrockfan36]

@Neosaigo

Your comment has several economic fallacies in place. Which is easily disproved by the increasing dependency on welfare and more pervasive forms of poverty.

There's a fundamental moral principle against universal health care, but you've noted a key element in it... dilapidation of resources.

In a universal health care system the inefficiency comes from the lack of acknowledgment of costs by the patient, creating 'equal' lines for un-equal pathologies.

[bluesrockfan36]

@Neosaigo

You break your arm, and you're in line for an MRI scan, someone is diagnosed with a potential tumor, and he has to wait behind you.

There are much better solutions, private distribution is by far way more efficient than public ones, go visit a VA hospital.

The idea of medical savings accounts tackles both of these issues fairly well.

As for my third contention, you're severely underestimating the power of charities and charity hospitals.

They do much more than 'keep' people alive

[svvmichael1]

@Neosaigo This comment is an tremendous lie. 69-87% of every dollar given to a charity goes to the designated recipients. In gov't, Medicaid has a 21% efficiency, Medicare 37%, Soc Security 44%, and the VA is tops at 57%. Ouch, not too good. Seems like we should privatize the whole thing and save $1.2-$1.6 TRILLION a year immediately.

[dglass81]

@Neosaigo exactly

[TheBoxingCannabyte]

@Neosaigo, you hit the nail on the head. There are some bullshit studies released saying that they "ration out" health care (even if that's true it's still better to have maybe 1 million people having to face rationing over 30 million who simply can't afford shit), or that cancer survival rates are lower. yet we are 38th on quality of life mainly because of the price of education and medical expenses! I'm 25, out of 60 friends I kow, maybe 20 have stable jobs. Only 10 have gone to college

[TheBoxingCannabyte]

@Neosaiga, and were able to finish. The rest came home drained, in debt up to their eyeballs. And 5 of them get whatever they want and are spoiled ass-clowns (not a one of them doesn't have their heads up in the clouds). They either vote republican or don't care about politics at all, and every single one of them is in the top 1-3% because of mommy and daddy. I have no problem giving some of the little I have so you and your family can have health care. Why does that make me a bad guy?

[Xwowplaya]

The reason the U.S pays double than every other industrialized nation is because 1/2 of it goes to profit! The other countries pay for whats needed while the states waste money on giving it to billionaire shareholders, thats where the waste lies not in government run systems, they can be as efficient as any corporation.

Good luck getting your system changed for the better America, get money out of Washington then you can rebuild what the neo cons have destroyed.

[kimhunter2]

@Xwowplaya Yes! There is currently an amendment on the table and a "Petition to Support the Saving American Democracy Amendment"

[H1TMANactual]

@Xwowplaya Umm NO sunshine. The combined profit of all insurance companies is $13 billion, while the medicare fraud alone costs $120 billion every year. Insurance is one of the least profitable sectors in America. Facts they are so annoying eh? If you idiot liberals wouldn't insist on govt running everything, maybe people will have money left over to help others.

[Xwowplaya]

@H1TMANactual Thats $13 billion in waste. The $120 billion was used to provide care for sick, injured or dying people. What is your imaginary number for how much money was taken in by insurance agencies on all the premiums? If you take that number and divid it per person covered it is nearly twice that of what other industrialized nations pay under a public option program. Facts are annoying to people who can't understand them. Your ignorance is costing the country billions!

[H1TMANactual]

@Xwowplaya LOL learn to read and some basic math.

[Xwowplaya]

@H1TMANactual Really, that is your rebuttal? I explain where the waste in the system is and you tell me to learn how to read?!?! I even used your false numbers. Profit before helping sick and dying people is a complete disgrace. The rest of the world knows how to distribute care for the entire society but here we can't get past the idea of billionaires not making billions in profit. You and your ideas is the reason why our country is broken.

[htiberian]

@Xwowplaya And now those European countries you would like to live in are going bankrupt.

[Xwowplaya]

@htiberian European countries and America are going bankrupt do to predatory sub prime lending after deregulation by Bush, which were invested in by other countries masked as securities, then fraudulently swapped by wall street. Universal health care did not cause the financial mess the world is currently in. It is solely due to deregulation and predatory practices by people in charge of banks and government, ideas republicans cling to. Anything else?

[Siegfried881]

@htiberian

I´m from Sweden and we have healthcare for everyone, and we have one the best Economy in the world right now, and Sweden is a Socialist country, Socialism ftw.

[zJLpie77J]

@Xwowplaya the reason the us pays double is because of the FDA's incentives to create a immensely slow process in which if a company has 9 out of ten medicines take 5 years longer than the one that did, they have to charge much higher to cover the losses of the 9 medicines for the next 5 years

[Xwowplaya]

@zJLpie77J Hate to break it to you but the rest of the world have the same exact rules for new drugs on their markets. Big Pharma has even got a patent protection in the world trade organization that says they can have 18 years of an uncompetitive market (monopoly) on their new drugs to recoup costs of research and development. These rules are why their are not many generic brands of pills and how Big Pharma makes billions in profit every year. The rest of the world pays the same price for drugs

[zJLpie77J]

@Xwowplaya well that may be so but why do you think in 2009 1,169 medical innovations came from the U.S., while only Germany was second with about 250, and if you went by state, 9 us states would be in front of Germany still. leading with Massachusetts in spite of the Romney-care, because of MIT and Harvard. and for now all I am asking for is to remove the FDA's veto power so people and doctors can still choose and if the FDA approves something it will say something on the bottle.

[Xwowplaya]

@zJLpie77J The FDA rules are in place to protect people from drugs that are not suitable for human consumption! These agencies are built for protection of the citizenry not to impede progress. Your idea of deregulation (which never works) would make people Guinea pigs for pharmaceutical companies.

Neo-cons will never understand that the problem is for profit pillaging of people in their most desperate time; when they are sick or dying. Understand a system before you rant about it.

[zJLpie77J]

@Xwowplaya first I am not a neo-conservative I am by definition a liberal, second although the FDA did save us from some bad drugs, their is no question, all I am saying is that an because of the mixed incentives to help people is dwarfed by the reluctance to not want to testify before congress, they take much longer on drugs like propranolol, and Approximately 10,000 Americans died needlessly every year for the three years it was against the law for their doctors to treat them with propranolol.

[Xwowplaya]

@zJLpie77J Your argument is a small issue in a larger problem of excess money wasted inside the health care industry. In no way would expediting drug approval help to lower the cost of healthcare as you started this discussion with. Sounds like you have an issue with 1 example and that is it. What about filidamyde being giving to pregnant women for morning sickness, the isomer of which caused birth defects. Caution is required, hind sight is 20/20

[zJLpie77J]

22,000 people died waiting for the FDA to approve streptokinase

More than 8,000 lost their lives while the FDA reviewed misoprostol

A five-year delay in approving Septra -- an anti-bacterial drug -- cost 80,000 lives

3,500 kidney cancer victims died during the three-and-a-half years it took to approve Interleukin

150,000 heart patients were victimized by FDA delays in approving an emergency blood-clotting drug called TPA.[8]

its not worth it.

[Xwowplaya]

@zJLpie77J I would hardly call the time it takes to study a drug and all of the isomers associated with them delays. While it is sad that people die and now we have a drug that may have helped them, the opposite is also true; there are people that receive medicine that compounds their problems. Look at all the class action lawsuits against Avandia, people now have heart failure. Once again the point is this is not the solution to the uneven distribution of healthcare or cost.

[zJLpie77J]

@Xwowplaya and now companies will invest a much larger percent of their profits to research and testing, and companies like Avandia should lose the lawsuit and file for bankruptcy and then they should be investigated for fraudulent miss-representation and halve to serve time in jail for man slaughter if they did use fraudulent miss-representation of the risks. when the FDA kills people as a result of a delay of a life saving drug they rarely are investigated or forced to testify before congress

[Xwowplaya]

@zJLpie77J The added time and money you say companies will put into research and development is exactly what the FDA makes them do now. The only difference is the drugs do not come out until they are proven safe and effective, without people having to suffer then sue. It a system designed to negate collateral damage. Bureaucracy can always be made more efficient, but to say the FDA should fast track drugs is begging for trouble. We don't know how effective a drug is until it's been tested.

[zJLpie77J]

@Xwowplaya how many people did the FDA save from drugs that if not blocked by the FDA, would have killed them.

[Xwowplaya]

@zJLpie77J That question is as arbitrary as your above claims to death by not expediting drugs. No one is able of foreseeing the future or knowing if alterations to the past would have worked. The best we can do is set up a system to account for every possible outcome and control it. Can you prove that each person you claim died because of "stalling" by the FDA would be alive today? NO. We have to appreciate the advancements others are doing in medicine and control the negatives.

[Xwowplaya]

@zJLpie77J Once again I fail to understand your claim that this is the reason healthcare is so expensive in the U.S when other countries have the exact same programs. The only difference being that they are not run for profit.

[zJLpie77J]

@Xwowplaya other country health care systems are terrible, and if they had no profit, how do they invest in making new drugs, they don't relative to the united states, European countries, don't they buy ours, so what happens is you get our for profit company's selling drugs and technology, to these European socialized medicinal programs because their better than the crap they can put out, and at that part they can confine the options so that the drug they get is the drug the're given

[Xwowplaya]

@zJLpie77J Since when do you need profit as a driver for investment into the public good? Taxes are the investment. Everyone helps each other out. As for drugs, Canada is on the forefront of AIDS vaccination, and Europe is light years ahead of the States on Stem cell research. To think that other countries don't have it in their best interests to advance medicine is ridiculous, they just do it as a public good rather than for profit. The profit for these companies is what skyrockets prices.

[zJLpie77J]

@Xwowplaya Getting just one drug approved costs a $400 million dollars, 150 million just to get them to look at it, this is the source of the waste

[svvmichael1]

@Xwowplaya Really? Gov't as efficient as ANY corporation? Lets see. The U.S. Postal Service loses $3-$10 billion/yr WHILE FedEx, UPS, and other companies make great profits WHIILE charging lower prices. Is that the efficiency you speak of? How about Amtrak that loses $550-$900 million/year (an avg of $32 loss PER PASSENGER) is that the efficiency you speak of?

[dglass81]

@svvmichael1 The USPS only loses because of Congress in 2004. See this video:

watch?v=UTfXHTPcEkU

[svvmichael1]

@dglass81 The USPS is slated to lose $18 billiob PER YEAR because the gov't can NOT ever manage anything properly. Look into the financials (if you know how and can understand them) of USPS and the other companies I named. The gov't has screwed up everything it has ever touched.

[SpookeyR]

@svv: "The gov't has screwed up everything it has ever touched."

Well, that's a developmentally stunted, fear, hate, scare, rumor & smear mongering, retardedly-fundamentalisticall­y inclined, tinfoil hat-wearing, Kool-Aid sipping, conspiracy theorist lie!

The USPS should be allowed to fold! Let FedEx & UPS, & whatever other companies that due such shipping there are, take control of the US mail. There will be screw ups & delay's, inevitably, bc they will be handling a massive ..

[dglass81]

@svvmichael1 Watch the video. Yeah the government screwed it up by making them fund pensions for 70 years in the future EVERY YEAR. What a sheep you are. Bah bah follow Paul bah bah free markets bah bah close my eyes to anything that disagrees LOL WHAT A JOKE YOU ARE.

[svvmichael1]

@dglass81 You are wrong. The USPS is running deficits because they overpay in salary and benefits, and they can't/won't make common sense changes (because of congress) that could allow them to break even or better. I have an MBA boy, and I don't get all my info from youtube like you. I read the financial statements.

[TheQuest2quest]

Yes keep giving the Government money on the thinking that "It's the right thing to do" or "We are protecting you".

Keep going till the dollar is worthless and the US Government falls.

[TheQuest2quest]

How about electing Ron Paul. 

[oneirishpoet]

@TheQuest2quest only if he'll retroactively abort his ignorant spawn Randy, sweet jeebus the stupid runs DEEP in that family

[TheStfu1000]

@oneirishpoet yes the critical thinking does run deep in the Paul family-f oh wait,,,...

[praecorloth]

It's kind of interesting, both sides here want the same thing, they just have differing views on how to get there. The thing is for years we've been trying and retrying and retrying the method Bernie Sanders is talking about. Which leads to the massive amounts of overhead and duplication of effort that Rand Paul is pointing out as being a problem. Why WOULDN'T you streamline this mess? If we cut out much of that overhead, we might be able to give people in need more than they're getting now.

[optionsupdate]

@sskinner99 he is paid from a public institution

[thbemky827]

haha private charity thats such a joke. if it were up to rand paul, he would get rid of every federal program that he would consider welfare.. then let the states deal with feeding and or dealing with these people as they slowly die and or become homeless. i am not in favor of that. id rather go bankrupt feeding and educating and healing people than survive by letting other die. find a solution somwhere in the middle and then u have my FULL attention

[bigtex1453]

@thbemky827

People are dying, homeless and hungry now with Federal aid. So we'll all be hungry and all broke?

Isn't there are more efficient delivery system?

[twiedenfeld]

Apparently Mr. Paul has never heard of a Nash Equilibrium.

[optionsupdate]

why did rand paul refuse to say how much money he had earned from medicare when asked by eliot spitzer?

[timfwater]

@Lightmane I might also point out that Paul likewise ignored Sanders point about preventative spending through social investments, or to the extend that he did address it, he believes that "private charities" would fill in the gap. It is foolish to assume that the corporations that would pay these charities would devote anywhere near enough $ (hundreds of billions) over yachts and jets or possess the coordination to do so. The free market has its uses- but not for everything.

[rgiblin6]

Bernie sanders sould move to cuba. Somewhere where his economic policies are already in place. Politicians are the scum of the earth.

[aemull3]

Is glad senator sanders thinks citizens are so incompetent that in their isolation they become confused and die because the government cant take care of them. If only all these people had healh care like a senator and did not leave to their home for food and care. If only he could set up a service to keep everyone in their house and he could give them all the care they needed at no cost. Please provide us with a perfect society congressmen Sanders we are collapsing in our own stupidity.

[suitabledude]

Sanders kicked Paul's ass?!? lol talk about being fool...both Franken and Sanders totally ignored Paul's point on spending limit by snidely confabulating Paul's argument into a straw-man never really responding to the direct point of: How much money is enough if you think merely spending in itself saves money.

Liberal's are today's economic alchemists, charlatans realy. Sanders only answers your problems in so far as he says what you've been pre-programed to accept as true.

[Lightmane321]

You 2 are nuts. Sanders kicked Paul's ass.

Sanders is the ONLY politician I know who actually has the answers to our problems, while the republicans are the cause of most of our problems today.

The fact that everyone in America doesn't know this plain & obvious fact is what's truly alarming. The republicans destroyed America & now they want to destroy the New Deal, which is exactly WHY they destroyed America. SO THAT they can now say that we can't afford the new deal & we have to destroy it

[danbuck333]

Sanders and Franken are the status quo.....they wont change anything until they have no choice

[rightsman123]

Rand is using logic and Sanders is using emotion to appeal to viewers. I think I like Rand's argument better.