Slavery in the Bible: Slavery Dialogs (1 of 3)

[zagros24]

the more people become educate it the less religious they become. A remarkable claim need remarkable proof! some don't need proof for their believe but many do!!

[apostatexp]

Well spoken discovery. I wonder if part of the reason Paul and other NT writers didn't condemn slavery was because they were promoting a system of de facto spiritual slavery in asking Christians to serve god and submit to his will and obey his commands, etc. To condemn slavery in general may have weakened their own position. I'm just speculating here, though.

[DiscoveringReligion]

@apostatexp

That's an extremely insightful comment! :) Although we can't prove it, it makes perfect sense. The Bible constantly speaks of servitude and obedience, in addition to comparing Jesus to a shepherd and his followers to a flock. To undermine the practice of slavery may have served to undermine the very message of Christianity itself. Religion doesn't want freethinkers. Free minds and free people do not make obedient sheep. I REALLY like your comment. Thanks a lot for posting. :)

[MaximusArurealius]

MrDiscoverYourASS, you're a LIAR AND A FRAUD. I have completely PWNED YOU. 

[DiscoveringReligion]

@MaximusArurealius

Ish don't think so... You claim indentured servitude is moral. Why? Because this form of slavery is used to pay off debt? If that is so, then prostitutes that sell sexual favors to pay off their debts are moral as well. We could even say drug dealers selling crack to pay off their debts are performing moral acts. By your logic, so long as they use the money to pay off a debt virtually anything is moral. BTW, do real Christians fling playground insults at their neighbors?

[MaximusArurealius]

@DiscoveringReligion "You claim indentured servitude is moral. Why? Because this form of slavery is used to pay off debt? If that is so, then prostitutes that sell sexual favors to pay off their debts are moral as well." FALSE ANALOGY but what else can we expect from a liar and a fraud? Thanks for proving it here in public.

[transtlantic]

@MaximusRetardus

The Romans were the most advanced people of their time. Slavery inside their rule was the most fair and just form (using your reasoning).

False analogy? LOLOL that's some fun shit. How is it a false analogy? it isn't. His example was perfect.

By your own reasoning you see prostitution as "moral".

Thanks for proving that you promote slavery and prostitution, that explains why prostitution is HUGE and slavery was common in the most religious states in the USA.

fuck off

[MaximusArurealius]

@DiscoveringReligion "BTW, do real Christians fling playground insults at their neighbors?" One true Scotsman fallacy. But thanks for confirming that you know Christianity to be superior to atheism. Nobody EVER says, "Why don't you try to act like a "real" atheist? HAR HAR HAR

[DiscoveringReligion]

@MaximusArurealius

For the time I've debated you and The1066Al I have not once flung an insult. Logic is on my side, I don't need to call you names to prove my point. But you cannot write a single comment without attempting to insult your opponents. You have no argument so you must attack the person in order to evade the issue. Theists claim to transcend petty emotions such as hate, but obviously you are filled with rage against those with opposing beliefs. I feel sorry for you.

[MaximusArurealius]

1. You have set up your own fixed definition of slavery and fail to define it as Christianity defines it. There are different forms of slavery. Slavery is not prostitution. Not all forms are immoral whereas prostitution cannot be moral under any circumstance (another one of your little false analogy and semantic tricks). The Christian moral view is that slavery where the master is the owner of the slave, body, mind, and soul and can do anything with him he wants is wrong (i.e., immoral). cont.

[MaximusArurealius]

2. You fled quickly by the screen shot at 7:00 in order to confuse the listener. Peter was telling Christian "servants" how to act. You took license with the wording and changed "servants" to "slaves." Peter also said that the "servants" who were treated unjustly were WRONGLY treated.

KJV 1 Peter 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters... 1 Peter 2:19 ...suffering wrongfully. This isn't an approval of slavery, but admonishment to Christians who ARE servants. cont.

[MaximusArurealius]

3. Indentured servants (i.e. slaves) are a different matter but you for the sake of discrediting the Bible lump them into the same category. It's because basically you're a liar and intellectually dishonest. So for the record, some forms of slavery (i.e., indentured servitude) are acceptable and others are not. So you fail because not all slavery is immoral. Nowhere in the Bible is "unjust" slavery approved of. cont.

[transtlantic]

@MaximusRetardus

how is any form of slavery...acceptable? are you fucking stupid??? (don't answer, it's rhetorical, everyone knows that you are an uneducated fuck).

No form of slavery is acceptable. But we all know that for a religious fundamentalist selling women is something "acceptable".

"not all slavery is immoral"...that's what the slave ppl used to say while trading slaves a few centuries ago, in america.

[MaximusArurealius]

4. You're a failure AND a Bible literalist. You are just another fundie with your own interpretation of the Bible. You fail at being a Bible scholar or knowing anything about it. You are intellectually dishonest (i.e. a liar). You fail to note that historically there was just slavery where the slave was paid a wage and treated fairly and there was unjust slavery as practiced by the Romans and the Egyptians where the slave was beaten and kept in a state of severe poverty. YOU ARE HEREBY PWNED

[transtlantic]

@MaximusRetardus

You accuse others of being bible literalists...and then you state that you are a creationist... being a creationist IS being a bible literalist. It's obvious that Science already disproved creationism.

"slave was paid a wage"? how is that "Just slavery"? treated fairly? how is that stopping slavery from being slavery? How is not being free...something that allows the conclusion: "treated fairly"? priosioners are treated fairly as well.

[shadowknyght]

This is actually a hard subject to talk about. First off it's a folly to attempt to judge ancient cultures based on the moral standards of this one. It wasn't denounced in the bible for probably one of two reasons. A) Because it wasn't considered wrong by that society or B) Because those who edited the bible before it was put out to the "masses" didn't want to contradict a lifestyle that they themselves enjoyed, whether it was endorsed by the real bible or not.

[davidthecook]

I actually knew a crack dealer that was a wiz on the chess board(rating probably around 1300), and loved preaching. We had some really great discussions. Nicest guy you could meet. I wish I was kidding. lol

[fhab525]

how can anyone even call themselves an apologists ..that title alone makes u full of shit

[deltaxcd]

Instead of arguing with christian in a way you prove that slavery is immoral you shroud argue and prove that slavery is moral because bible says so. then ask why he is objecting to gods will.

there is nothing in the bible that could speak against slavery in any way. all it demands to threat slaves in some semi humane way, like we demand to threat dogs or other animals.

so valid topic would be to ask why that christian believes that god thinks opposite of what he says in bible.

[RogerWazup007]

Christians simply water down any evil in the bible by making excuses on god's behalf. "Slavery wasn't a bad thing since it was voluntary, and the slaves were treated well." "God even allowing us to breathe shows his ultimate mercy, since we deserve the worst torture imaginable for being the way he created us." "God doesn't send people to hell, people send themselves, and willingly."

[bajholster]

What's the movie around the 14:00 mark? Can't put my finger on it.

[tml4873]

It would have been really helpful if you got someone else to voice one of the debaters. This is an entirely verbal presentation, but we're forced to stare at the video for the sole purpose of keeping tracking of who is speaking.

[MathPhysChemSkyNerd]

And also, since the bible says quite clearly that slavery was good, modern christians are actually "twisting the bible".

[MathPhysChemSkyNerd]

And also, when the christian said it wasn't recorded if jesus had said something, well, I don't think jesus said anything or said what his disciples later taught: it was OK. Where else would they derive such doctrine?

[MathPhysChemSkyNerd]

The christian said that paul would have been in danger because it was popular at the time, but there are two problems with this: a) early christians had no problem speaking out against other practices that caused them persecution, and b) paul purposefully gets himself into trouble in this manner, to the point of being killed. Conclusion: paul, being the man he was, had no qualms about slavery, b/c if he did, he would have no problem getting into trouble.

[LordSauceness]

Ephesians 6:5-9 sounds like it was written by some corporate CEO to secure forced labour from his workers and have them actually be happy about it. Sadly, many people have used this verses over the centuries to lay down and allow themselves to be abused by those in power over them. You just know Christians can cough up a 1000 ways to spin these verses for their personal advantage.

[TheOmegadusk]

The argument of being enslaved by circumstances could be made for a shitty factory job too- "I can't make enough money doing something less harsh to my well being so I must do this." In a legal and regulated situation though at least there is a choice, which is a far cry from the typicaly human traffiicking of black market postitution where somone is forced by threat and addictions to do things they may (probably) not choose to do.

[BlackLabelSlushie]

Re: "slavery was prevelant hence GOD had to take at best half-assed measures to to regulate rather than abolish it." Name one other place where God does this? In Soddom (after which anal sex is named) homosexuality was prevalent. So did God say "well since it's prevalent I better leave it alone or just tell them to use a condom"? No, he torched the whole fucking place and everyone in it - including the good people.

[Thayer79]

1 Peter 2:18-21 isn't just telling them to deal with it. The real horror is that he is telling them that their suffering is a good thing and they should be happy they are suffering, because it means they are more like Jesus.

Especially now, Christianity is a religion of self inflicted masochistic victim-hood.

"Immerse yourself in your persecution and then bemoan that it's happening, to show others how pious you are."

[slipcurve]

Of all the lame defences of the bibles atrocities, the ones defending slavery are among the worst. It's clear evidence that the human mind can be twisted to absurd degrees.

[AkasakaS2000]

Problem of religion: at EACH POINT of time in history, every Christians thinks that their own point of view IS right FOREVER. How can any Christians possibly know if their interpretation of the bible is right or not? That bring us to the question that: is something EXTERNAL to the bible that guides our interpretation of the bible? For a science textbook which is not good, we don't use it. We throw it away instead of defending it. So why not the bible?

[rkyeun]

The analogy between slavery and prostitution really is a horrible one.

Prostitution is voluntary and between two consenting parties who both benefit from the arrangement.

Slavery is not.

[byteresistor]

@rkyeun Prostitution is not always voluntary.

[rkyeun]

@byteresistor

Then it's rape.

[DiscoveringReligion]

@rkyeun

If you watched the introduction video I explained why I use this analogy. But consent is not the issue here. I am solely relying on theistic understanding of morality. Christians believe prostitution is immoral, period. However, they make all kinds of excuses for slavery. If you believe something is flat-out immoral, then it doesn't matter how you regulate it, because it is still immoral. That is it the point.

[rkyeun]

@DiscoveringReligion

Right, okay.

[wroth]

@DiscoveringReligion There's still a problem there. Since, both sides agree that slavery is immoral, the initial contention is over whether the bible endorses it or not. If we really did swap slavery with prostitution, a Christian could still say, "The bible does not endorse prostitution, but it was a common practice throughout the ancient world. Prostitution often served a vital purpose, such as allowing people to pay off debts" while still holding the position that prostitution is immoral.

[DiscoveringReligion]

@wroth

Christians are aware the Bible regulates slavery. In order to circumvent this problem Christians will make excuses, such as slavery was a tool, slaves were not treated harshly, and so on. I can easily counter this with the examples of prostitution or bestiality, practices Christians find immoral and would never justify the same way they do with slavery. This shows Christians are not morally consistent. If something is immoral, then no excuse can be given for those who engage in it.

[BlackLabelSlushie]

@rkyeun Actually it's a fine analogy. The fact that prostitution is voluntary, yet eternally immoral to christians, makes the argument against excuses for slavery even stronger.

Homosexuality would be another good one. What if people offered homosexual services to repay their debts. Would christians swallow that?

[rkyeun]

@BlackLabelSlushie

Ted Haggard would.

[DiscoveringReligion]

@BlackLabelSlushie

Nice pun. :)

[kazdek1000]

@rkyeun That might be what you tell yourself when you part with your money.

[rkyeun]

@kazdek1000

That's what everyone tells themselves when they part with their money. For any purchase.

[anzwertree]

@rkyeun I disagree that prostitution is necessarily beneficial to both parties. Even in places where it's legal, there is a strong connection to organized crime, drugs, and even trafficking. Many of these women genuinely "feel" as if they have no other option. Take a trip to Paris or Amsterdam to see what a wonderful life these women have on the streets. At least in Amsterdam it's regulated, but that doesn't mean these women are free. They are enslaved by their circumstances.

[rkyeun]

@anzwertree

No, they are not enslaved by their circumstances. They choose to prostitute as a solution to their problems rather than any other solution.

[anzwertree]

@rkyeun I disagree. It's not that simple. If you had any understanding of psychology and anthropology you'd understand why prostitution isn't a simple "choice" issue. Rarely do any women wake up one morning a willfully choose to sell their body on the street. These women are often extorted. Not that I'm trying to marginalize slavery, but regarding prostitution as mutually beneficial and just as a "solution to their problems," is just ignorant and insulting. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[rkyeun]

@anzwertree

I don't need an understanding of psychology or anthropology to know the definitions of words. Prostitution is voluntary, rape and slavery are not. If someone is forcing you to have sex, it's rape. If someone is forcing you to do work you don't want, it's slavery. It is that simple. You are trying to add on complex other crimes like extortion and slavery to the prostitution to remove the element of choice. That makes it a complex form of rape, not prostitution.

[DiscoveringReligion]

@anzwertree

Actually, I'm friends with a girl that I found out worked as an escort. She is a great person that came from a very poor family and she took an easy way out. She made a ton of money, invested wisely, and now owns several pieces of property, cars, and supports her whole family. She is now retired from being an escort and found a better job. Not all prostitution is how you describe, although it's not something I'd choose for me or anyone I know. It's easy money but not an easy life.

[anzwertree]

@DiscoveringReligion Strippers don't ordinarily sell their bodies on the street. Do you think this anecdotal story of yours somewhere makes prostitution a desirable profession for women to be involved with? My stepfather was a con artist. He has several properties too. But he got it at the expense of others livelihoods. I have a few other stories as well. Most of them didn't end so well. There are those happy with their career, but if you think prostitution is all fun and games you're mistaken.

[DiscoveringReligion]

@anzwertree

You're making broad statements as if all prostitutes are essentially sex slaves. I gave you an example where that is not true. Many women are freelancers, they can stop any time they wish. Plus, the money they make is theirs, or they must pay a fee to an agency that helps find them work. This is much the same how stripping works. But I never said prostitution was desirable, I said, "it's not something I'd choose for me or anyone I know. It's easy money but not an easy life."

[DiscoveringReligion]

@anzwertree

BTW, your stepfather told lies in order to get people to part with their money, or did not deliver services that he promised he would. Either way, your father took money from others on false pretenses, which is not what's going on with consensual sex between escorts and their clients. Some men want to pay for sex and some women want to exchange sex for money. So long as it is consensual we cannot say anything in opposition, even though we do not personally condone their actions.

[anzwertree]

@DiscoveringReligion Fair enough.

[anzwertree]

@DiscoveringReligion My point is that many women are enslaved to prostitution. Pointing out a few successful escorts in no way negates this fact. For the same reasons theists cannot label everything good as "God" and ignore all the negative implications, we also can't take prostitution and pretend it's just about consensual sex. Along with prostitution, you must also to take its bagage into account, and that includes organized crime, drugs, disease, violence....

[DiscoveringReligion]

@anzwertree

You claim, "Rarely do any women wake up one morning a willfully choose to sell their body." Actually, they do. Look at strippers. Many of them wake up one morning and decide to strip, why can't the same be true of prostitution? I lived in London for several months and met a couple girls that ended up being escorts. We became friends and I learned a lot about their lives. Many girls from poor countries like Thailand don't have options, but it's still a choice, they aren't slaves.

[anzwertree]

@DiscoveringReligion I'm a member of TAT. That's "Truckers Against Trafficking." If you only knew the things I've seen out there over the road. Check out their website to see how bad things can be. Slavery is a very good comparison. Granted, some of these women have been successful. But that is hardly an argument in favor of prostitution. Some people successfully quit drugs using prayer -- yet, that hardly supports prayer as an effective strategy, regardless of the "success stories"

[DiscoveringReligion]

@anzwertree

How did you ever get on the topic of human trafficking? That is the opposite of escorting, or the form of prostitution I discuss in my video. I will never argue in favor of anything that makes people do something against their will or violates autonomy. Everyone must be free to do/say whatever they want (w/in reason), even if it makes some of us feel uncomfortable. What consenting adults do in privacy is their business, you have no right to prevent or restrict them.

[Discipol]

@rkyeun woman may be forced into prostitution. This is called human trafficking. I am convinced slaves where used for sex quite a lot. Especially women and children.

[rkyeun]

@Discipol

That's rape, not prostitution. Prostitution is voluntary.

[LetReasonPrevail1]

@rkyeun

You said, "That's rape, not prositution which is voluntary"

You are engaging in nothing more than selective-definitional semantics. This is no better than when a Christian Apologists says, "Well, they aren't REAL Christians"

In either case, it's bollucks & self-serving intellectual dishonesty

The institution & practice of prostitution has always included a large component of the forced or coerced involvement of your girls.

Deal with it. Your flawed thinking got exposed.

[rkyeun]

@LetReasonPrevail1

Yes, when you select a false definition and I correct you on it, I am engaging in nothing more than selective-definitional semantics. And if I tell you the sky is orange and you go on to explain the difference between orange and blue, you will be too, and that won't make me less wrong about the sky.

[tonyLA24]

@rkyeun fyi, prostitution is not voluntary in some cases, people are forced to do it even in USA

[mindwis3]

@rkyeun

"Prostitution is voluntary and between two consenting parties....."

Actually, most of the times prostitution is far from voluntary, never heard of "human trafficking"?

I live in the Netherlands and i think we're pretty progressive wrt prostitution here but even here much of the prostitution is done by women who are exploited, in other countries like Thailand or Saudi the situation is far far worse.... this goes all the way to abduction of young girls who are put to "work".

[anzwertree]

@mindwis3 Thank you for mentioning that!

[TheD0ded0de]

Favoriting this series. You've done it again. Great job!

[billygundum]

Truth to Power

[Mectrixctic]

1:20- er... concubines?

3:23- racist

4:40- Christians suffered for their faith anyways

5:40- Yahweh tolerates other cultures. When he doesn't wipe them out.

Coal plants are immoral, but we need them for electricity. At least I say there will/should be a time we don't need them anymore.

[Stonegoal]

If slavery was wrong christianity would not exist. My family still says thank the lord sometimes before eating a meal. Thank the lord = Thank the (slave)master.

[8WholeThing]

Ever wondered how Noah, a mortal man, could place a curse on the descendants of anybody? I think he is god of polytheism made into a man for monotheism. He's not the only one.

[JuryDutySummons]

@8WholeThing I think the theory is that the Jewish people long ago practiced polytheism and the stories of the old testament were referring to more then one god... and eventually it morphed/evolved into monotheism.

[8WholeThing]

@JuryDutySummons Most likely it was the Egyptian Ogdoad god Nu, god of the Deep, who is depicted in art as holding a boat over his head with 7 people and some animals on deck. Those stories stripped either the godhood or the personality of their gods under Ahkenaten. Notice how the name barely changed?