@ONENIGGER2ANOTHER Absolutely, there are many factors involved in being KO'd. Fatigue, physiology, bone and muscle morphology, diet, angles, forces, wills etc. But to say the term "granite chin" is a bullshit term really just shows that YOU don't know what you're talking about. I've been boxing for almost twenty years and I tell you from a long history of personal experience that certain men just have a god-given ability to absorb punishment, in spite of having all variables against them.
@Tommyc1923 Lesson 1: There are 3 main knockout points on the human head. 1. jaw. 2. temple. 3. occipital region. Lesson 2: The specific causes for a knockout vary between points 1-3, but the main factors that PREVENT the ko from happening are 1. the overall amount of electrical current circulating from the brain to the spine, 2.) the strength of the muscles around bone articulations in points 1-3. Lesson 3: The combination of these 2 factors are what comprises the term known as "chin".
@Tommyc1923 You missed the boat on my last comment redneck! I simply stated the chin itself is NOT the factor. Its a misnomer and yes a BULLSHIT term. Now the fact that some guys like Chavez, Dempsey and Hagler among them are frighteningly impervious I agree on. The fact is that the mental aspect is greater than the physical. I am impressed that you know something because most these bitches on Youtube know shit about shit.
@ONENIGGER2ANOTHER I agree that the chin itself is not the factor. But "chin" is just a commonly used term which symbolizes the quality of being able to take a punch and does not refer to the literal chin of a human being, so you misinterpreted the conversation Jamdowner and I had. And rednecks don't play chess.
@Tommyc1923 Bitch you are wearing this conversation out! And if thats your skinny ass on the video you need to give it up. Man you took almost 10 minutes with that old sloppy ass bald dude? LOL The only reason you won is his old ass just gassed. Why don't you just leave the fighting to the real deals and find another hobby. You remind me of Scott Blevins.
@ONENIGGER2ANOTHER I like how you change the subject to cheapshot me once you realized that you were mistaken. You talk pretty tough for somebody who only has a video of them doing bagwork. You got good hands, but I'd look pretty good too if all I did was two minutes of heavy bag and threw only hooks. Bags don't hit back tho. MMA is different than boxing, but you're right, I'd just wait till you were tired and then take over. And I bet "sloppy ass" would take you down and choke you out.
@Tommyc1923 I got a brown Belt in Judo that says otherwise. You are a fucking presumptious bitch to to think I am one dimensional or a recreational fighter. And I stand by my recommendation that you find another "Hobby".
if i was in watson's corner, who are notorious for leaving him unprotected and taking too much punishment, I WOULD SCREAM, "HOLD 'EM, BUY SOME TIME HOLD EM AND RUN AROUND!!!" but no, he just takes a prolonged beating here and in the eubank fight. so sad, he is such a good guy...
That has to be one of the most one-sided rounds I've EVER seen. If this wasn't in the UK, it the ref would've waived it off a minute earlier. It's pretty much McCallum from :25 onward - Watson basically didn't counter for 2 minutes. Talk about a straight-up ass-whipping.
fuck that he was better than larry holmes. mccallum was a natural of the sport, and could win a fight any which way. larry was just a dude with a long jab and a good chin.
This was too early in his career for Watson. McCallum was rock hard. The only real top fighter to dare challenge him was the great Donald Curry who was summarily knocked spark fucking out.
@toddyhotrox I agree...in some respects it reminded me of Bruno vs Witherspoon, a young Bruno against a more expirenced savvy fighter...Mccallum is neglected in discussing great middleweight fighters
England wept why ? Its an honor to watch McCallum in action he didnt even want to knock out Watson if you watch , rubbish corner work and reffing they should have stopped the fight if i can see it they should have .
Ok, lets dispell a myth right here and right now, ALL fighters dodged people!!! It doesn't mean I respect them any less but it is the truth, I am a fighter too. Mike Mccallum is a prime example of a guy who was too good for his own good. None of the fab 4(Leonard, Duran, Hearns or Hagler) wanted anything to do with Mccallum. He was what is referred to in boxing as a high risk low reward fighter. I don't see how that is the case because Mccallum Had a belt, but no one was eager to risk a fight.
Both fighters were class acts. Its a little harsh to judge Watson on a single performance. Boxing is about learning. Fighters are constantly improving after each bout until they peak (early to mid 30's). Watson's terrible accident occurred when he was around 27. During this bout he was just 25. McCallum became a pro at the same age. Had the accident not happened I'm sure he would got a world championship belt. (Lets not forget he was robbed during Eubank I).
you can see how watson recovered from nearly dying, in rematch with eubank, he"s got so much bottle. gives everything & is outgunned until he falls to the floor, no one with more balls than michael watson! hope he is getting better & better!
2briliant fighters.Watson had so much to come,Mccallum is a legend the guy gets zero on the forums but is a better fighter than jones and toney.Watson did so well to take a prime mccalum to 11.I remember when they offered Benn a mcallum fight and i quote"no fuc ing way"Mike took it
mccallum only just scraped a split decision from the tap dancer herol graham. he wouldn"t have beaten the benn who beat mclellan, maybe not even gunshy roy jones that nite!!! watson came back from the dead after 2nd eubank fight, thats real courage in a real fight, there is no bigger fight than the one for your life!!!
Benn would of knocked McCallum out, Watson could have beat him if he'd had a bit more belief, Eubank would definately of beat McCallum, who is a very overrated fighter for me
Belief was not the problem, Watson was INJURED and ILL before the fight, he had a broken nose from sparring AND a cold.
Had Watson been 100% he would have won the fight which is why he was the favourite.
Benn AND Eubank actually avoided McCallum, not because they couldn't win, but because it was not a guarentee as McCallum was so good and more than capable of beating both guys.
Pound 4 pound Watson was superior to Benn AND Eubank but had ALOT of bad luck.
@sportty89 Let's see, Watson kayos Benn and you say Benn would have knocked out McCallum? You have no idea what you are talking about. McCallum was never knocked out in his entire career! McCallum would have done what he did to Jackson, a much harder puncher than Benn. He'd have ridden out the storm and then knocked him out. Eubank would have been comprehensively outboxed. There was no one on the British domestic scene that could touch Mike. No one!
@dan32113 Do you think McCellan and McCallum are in the same category? The only thing they had in common is similarity in last names. McClellan was a kayo artist who usually knocked guys out in the first couple of rounds. He had no stamina for a full 12 round fight. McCallum on the other hand was a well conditioned fighter who got better the longer the fight went on. Benn would've come out like he normally does, in a fury. Mike would weather the storm and knock him out at the latest in round 10.
@dan32113 McCallum was a great fighter. So was Bomber Graham. Benn was good, but both McCallum and Graham were better fighters. That's why so few wanted to fight the bomber.
@dan32113 you're insane, McCallum had a great chin was a very smart fighter and was avoided by all the great fighters of the 80's, Hagler, Hearns, Duran and Ray Leonard. You don't think he would've beaten Benn. He would've eaten Benn alive with his body attack remember this is the same Michael Watson that had just beaten Benn. You're giving Benn too much credit for the McClellan, McClellan blew his wade in rd 1, and he got hit with dozens of punches behind the head, not to mention the ref suxd
@cstrait mccallum knocked out Jackson, but Graham only lost a split decision to him! style"s make fights here is an examlpe, Hagler wpts 15 Duran, Hearns ko 2 Duran so you would think Hearns should beat Hagler, but Marvin stopped Hearns in the 3rd rd! It is simplistic to compare different fighters & how they fare against common opponent...
Complete mismatch. One of the worst one-sided beatings that I I've ever seen in a boxing ring.
I've never rated Mr Watson. I think that many people are reluctant to give their true opinion of his abilities because of the tragic events surrounding his second fight with Eubank.
In my opinion. he may have been worthy of a crack at a domestic title; but world class - no chance.
what rubbish, he gave nigel benn a boxing lesson tko6, won the first fight with eubank although robbed by the judges, and was pissing the second eubank fight when eubank landed that freak uppercut. i know i was at the fight! he had won at least 7 of the completed rds you know shit about boxing, or was benn shit as well because watson ko"d him!
Say what you want, Benn and Watson was not world class at the time. To many great americans at the time. Today they would've been, like Calzaghe was. he would have been shit at the time. And no, Watson didnt win many rounds in this fight, he was doing ok until round 5 but then it was downhill and it was obvious that he was not able to land anything on McCalumn.
He might have been sick I dont know..but it doesnt change the facts. MCcallum has shown then and later on in his career that he is head and shoulders above an just above average plodder/slugger like Watson. Watson was ok and had heart, and he was entertaining but DONT rate him higher than a Jedi-Master like McCallum. The man was a boxing guru and is an all time great. Watson is not.
Benn,Eubank,watson was all good but below the great Americans at the time, Toney,Nunn,McCallum,Roy Jones.
I'm not saying Watson was better than McCallum, but he was better than this performance shows, for christs sake Watson was exhausted by round 3 so that shows us something wasn't right.
Well, I think Barkley AND McClellan were regarded as TOP CLASS Yanks and guess who beat them BOTH?
Thats right, a BRITISH fighter who beat Barkley in 1 round, but it took the 'great' Toney 10 bloody rounds. Thats the same Toney who was Disgraced by Jones and EASILY whipped by Nunn until a lucky stoppage.
Good, as long as u dont say watson is better than McCallum. None denies that it was a good period for the brits. It's a shame that fights like Eubank-RJJ or the likes never were made.
Lucky stoppage? Nunn was unable to stand, that's not luck, that's punching power. And Nunn wasn't winning that fight from the start of it, he won MAYBE three rounds at most. You need to watch that fight again.
@Tommyc1923 Nunn was waaaaayyyyyy ahead on points. 99-91, 98-92, 97-93! Toney's own corner said at the end of round 10, "You're running out of rounds." That's why Nunn was coasting & he got kayoed. It was a lucky stoppage. I remember watching Nunn's title winning fight against Frank Tate & there were times he kept his hands low & I thought Tate would counter. I don't care how tough you are, if you give someone a clean shot at your chin you're going DOWN!!!
@jamdowner A.) Judges don't get the video view that we. The judges perspective is never as accurate as what the camera shows. That's a fact. B.) Close rounds which could either way almost always default to champion on the scorecards. C.) I DO care how tough someone is. Not everyone goes down from a good shot to the chin, That's where "solid chin" comes from. Nunn is a great boxer, but doesn't have a world class chin. Toney is a great boxer AND has a world class chin. He's never been KO'd.
@Tommyc1923 (1) The point is that Nunn was winning the fight regardless of your opinion. At the end of the day the three judges are the ones who decide victory or failure and not your opinion. Nunn was way ahead on points at the time. My opinion is that Nunn was way ahead as well. Even Toney's OWN CORNER knew he was behind! (2) There are a number of guys with great chins who have been kayoed by one punch. No one is invincible.
@jamdowner Okay, judges determine the outcome and not the fans, even though it's not always accurate, I see your point. However, if someone is kayoed by one punch, they by definition DO NOT have a great chin. Who with a great chin got taken down by one punch? Maybe by body blows, but body blows are an entirely different element by themselves. Toney, Ali, Marciano, Monzon, Calzaghe, they've been tagged by the biggest punchers known and none of them were ever ko'd by one punch.
@Tommyc1923 Exceptions to the rule do not make the exception the rule! True that Ali & Monzon have been tagged by kayo artists (I can't say the same for Toney, Marciano and definitely not Calzaghe). Duran was one of toughest fighters of all time yet he was kayoed in two rounds by Hearns. Gene Fullmer was beautifully knocked out by Robinson yet went on to win the middleweight title and beat Robinson in the process. A classic example is Robbie Peden vs Nate Campbell. That's what I'm talking about!
@jamdowner Toney fought Roy jones jr, Macallum, Sam Peter, Barkley and Rahman; Marciano fought Walcott, Layne, Moore and an old Joe Louis, but punch is the last thing to leave a fighter. Calzaghe ate shots from Jones, Eubanks and Kessler. All of them can punch. And great chins finishing careers without being KO'd is not the exception by any standard. Ray Robinson was never KO'd by a punch, nor were Laguna, Jofre, Hagler, Hopkins, graham or gavilan. Fullmer was ko'd by Tiger: not a puncher.
@Tommyc1923 (1) Fullmer was stopped by Tiger in his last fight! His manager stopped the fight. He was not kayoed. (2) McCallum was called the body snatcher. He was not a kayo artist like Julian Jackson. Neither was Barkley, Rahman and Peter knocked out only bums. When they increased the level of their competition their kayo ratings fall dramatically. (3) Yes punch is the last thing to leave a fighter but what are the odds if a young promising boxer fights an old faded great?
@jamdowner Barkley was definitely a known puncher, that's not really in dispute by anybody. And Macallum was also listed on the Ring's top 100 list of punchers, just watch the donald curry fight. And you're missing the point with Marciano and Louis. The point is that Marciano took joe louis's best shots, quite a few of them, and louis was ranked in that same list as the greatest puncher of all time. Marciano had an iron chin, like Robinson, and chin matters, alot, that's my point.
@Tommyc1923 (4) Jones was never a kayo artist in the classic sense. He relied on speed and it was the quickness that his opponents never saw coming that knocked them out. Which is just my point. (5) Jersey Joe was ancient when he fought Marciano along with Moore and Louis. Joe was not a kayo artist. Moore was a light heavyweight and Louis was shot. Just because you can punch doesn't mean you get the opportunity to do so especially when you are old.
@Tommyc1923 Using your logic about Marciano then it means that Kevin McBride who knocked out Mike Tyson has a great chin because he fought Tyson and won. But we know that Tyson was SHOT!!!! (6) You seem to have a different view on what a kayo artist is. To me a kayo artist is Julian Jackson, Mike Tyson, Gerald McClellan, Ernie Shavers, George Foreman, Ruben Olivares, etc. Kessler, Eubanks and Jones are not kayo artists. Calzaghe never took shots from Jackson or McClellan.
@jamdowner Using your logic then, since Watson KO'd Benn and McClellan did not, then Watson is a bigger puncher than McClellan. And most of Jackson's KOs were against lesser competition.
@Tommyc1923 The equation I used is completely different from yours and you know it. The point I was making is that you said that Marciano had a good chin because he beat Joe Louis who was a kayo artist in his time. We both know that Louis was too old just like Tyson was too old when he fought McBride. So McBride beating Tyson doesn't mean he has a good chin.
Your point about Benn, Watson and McClellan is a completely different variable as these were men in their primes not like Tyson or Louis.
@jamdowner Louis being out of his prime would have little bearing on whether or not he could punch hard, because as you agreed, punch is the last to thing to go, and if you watch the fight you can see Marciano absorbing alot of punches, louis's best shots, who, even beyond his prime, still had ko power.
@jamdowner I don't how you concluded that from anything I've said. My entire point is that Marciano had an IRON jaw. The Louis fight proves that. You can literally see marciano getting tagged by the hardest shots of a legendary slugger and not being ko'd. Louis's age was irrelevant because his power, which is primary factor of a ko, was still present. And as trash talked as Marciano's defense is, one would have to conclude that since he was never ko'd in his entire career, it was due to chin.
@Tommyc1923 And we're getting away from the original point. My first comment was in reply to someone trash-talking Toney's skills and they used the Nunn fight as an example, calling it a "lucky stoppage". My contention is that it was not luck, but a matter of toughness, chin. Nunn was ko'd by a single shot from Toney. U made a blanket, hyperbolic statement = "...I don't care how tough someone is...", I don't agree with that. Marciano is an example of a fighter who persevered on toughness.
you are right marciano is a damn tank it,s like them people who was hitting him was weak they are strong they have the power for a one punk Ko but marciano is tuff ass nails
@Tommyc1923 (7) Yes, Robinson, Hopkins, Hagler were never kayoed but there are going to be fighters who were never kayoed. I fail to see your point. There are some people who have had great chins who later on in their careers no longer have punch resistance. (8) I'm saying had Hagler stuck his head out against Thomas Hearns the way Nate Miller left his head open against Peden he'd have been knocked out!!! Just like tough guy Gene Fullmer was kayoed by Robinson.
@jamdowner Hagler did stick head out Hearns, and ate punches! Go watch the fight. The difference is he could take the punches, Hearns could not. Chin was the determining factor. Yes, chin does fade, faster than punching power, but both nunn and toney were in their prime when they fought. U = "I don't care how tough someone is, if you give someone a free shot to your chin, you're going down" and that's just not true to the reality of boxing. Toney had a better chin, hands down and chin matters.
@Tommyc1923 Hagler did not stick his head out. He got tagged and you know Hearns broke his hand in the first round. But that's besides's the point. In boxing you're always told "Protect yourself at all times". If you have a cast iron chin why keep your hands up? You give anyone a free shot at your chin at some point of your career you are going down. How many examples of tough fighters have I got to give before you actually see this as a reality?
@jamdowner There's so many reasons to protect yourself besides the fear of a ko. A. the points on the scorecards, b. long term brain damage, which has nothing to do with chin, c. it doesn't feel good to get tagged. I'm not advocating that anyone is invincible, but certain people get knocked out easier than others, period, and that matters in boxing. Just because you speculate that although they've never been ko'd doesn't mean they couldn't be, it doesn't mean they could be either.
@Tommyc1923 And it DOES matter who you are. Besides, you haven't provided a copious amount of examples, more like 3, which makes that appear more like the exception. Toney has a legendary chin, end of story, he claims no one on the earth can knock him out, and since it hasn't happened yet, and he's faced big-time punchers and been hit, it's presumptuous to say that he could be since there's no evidence of that. Just cause it happened to Nunn and Fullmer doesn't it could have happened to Robinson
@Tommyc1923 Furthermore, I didn't want to bring this up because it's something anybody could lie about to try and prove a point, but I have personal experience in the ring, amateur and professional, and a large part of my opinion regarding chin stems from that experience. I know men who've been boxing for more than forty years and have never been ko'd. For you to say that they could be has little weight when they haven't been. 40 years! And sparred champions. CHIN matters, why don't you get that
@Tommyc1923 Hey Tommy, I know that chin matters. I do get it! I'm just saying that no one is invincible. I'm not disputing that Toney had a tough chin. He went up middleweight to heavyweight and never got kayoed. I understand that! But even Toney was knocked down by Reggie Johnson & Johnson was a light hitter! My opinion is that under certain circumstances even the toughest guy can be kayoed. Why is it that kayo artists usually end up being kayoed themselves? Because they leave themselves open!
@Tommyc1923 Maybe it's just my pet peeve but I hate absolutes in boxing. For example, they always say that you lose power when you step up in weight but there are a number of guys I know who have kept their power. David Haye for one. Manny Pacquiao, Thomas Hearns, Michael Moorer, the list goes on. Yet that somehow gets overlooked. It's the same with the so-called granite chin. I refuse to believe that someone could never get knocked out, no matter how tough they really are!
@jamdowner I understand that anything can happen in a fight, and I'm not speaking in absolutes so much as in extreme statistical improbabilities. Take Ali. One of the most resilient fighters ever. Was he physically impossible to ko? No. But, given how he performed in his career, regardless of whether or not he saw the punch coming, IMO the statistical probability of him getting ko'd is so incredibly small that it's a more than safe bet he won't be, irrelevant of the variables.
@Tommyc1923 AND iamdowner Neither of you known what you are talking about. The chin or jaw has nothing at all to so with it and cliches like "Granite Chin" are Bullshit. There are many factors in knocking a guy down or out and every situation is unique. Culmative punishment -overall fatigue and even mental pressures as well as physiology are all valid as well as sheer force of will. You don't have to be a huge puncher to take a guy out either another false-hood. Go study kinesioogy!
@Tommyc1923 The fact that some guys didn't get kayoed in their careers doesn't mean that they wouldn't have under different circumstances. For example, no one can deny that Marlon Starling didn't have a good chin yet against Tomas Molinares, as the bell rang, he dropped his hands and got clocked big time. HE NEVER SAW THE SHOT COMING! Had the bell not rang Starling wouldn't have gotten hit and he'd not have gotten knocked out and he couldn't retired like that.
@Tommyc1923 It doesn't matter who you are. We are all human beings and yes some are tougher than others but the reality is no one is Clark Kent or Bruce Banner.
If I get tagged with a left hook coming out of nowhere and I did not see it there is a very good likelihood that I'm going down. You can ask Gene Fullmer, Nate Campbell, Marlon Starling, etc. You said that Nunn doesn't have a world class chin. You tell me when has Nunn ever been kayoed before or after the Toney fight!
@imperialpod Hagler beats Duran by a point. Hearns kayos Duran in 2. Does that make Hearns better than Hagler? We know that Hagler destroyed Hearns in three. Pavlik kayos Jermain Taylor in 7. Taylor beats Hopkins twice over 12. Does that make Pavlik better than Hopkins? We know Hopkins ran rings around Pavlik and he has never been the same!!! Styles makes fight. One man's better result doesn't make him the better fighter!
With your description of yourself as 'I'm the best', it's highly likely.
Michael Nunn and Toney were typically over rated, over hyped protected domestic US fighters. They were even protected from other domestic American fighters.
Never hear protected US fighters do you?
Just protected European ones from unwordly American commentators, because some yanks think the US is the Mecca of boxing and yanks are the greatest.
"Michael Nunn and Toney were typically over rated"..
Nunn where, Toney werent..toney is a future HOF, amazing career. To compare it with watsons is dumb. To compare any British boxer ever with either Toney, McCalumn or is plain ignorant. They are not up there, the closest you have is Calslappy , and all his "big" wins came when the big names where in their forties and shot. lol at britsh fighters..rofl
I notice Mr (or is it Miss?) onlineboxingdotnet that you are from Denmark.
So where exactly do you rate Mikkel Kessler (Danish), who Joe Calzaghe beat then?
Why are you Rolling On the Floor Laughing anyway, have you been taking drugs, or did you just look at a list of Denmark's ten greatest fighters and discover you had to go back as far as the Vikings to find one?
@onlineboxingdotnet I'm British and I have to agree with you. Toney is definitely a hall of famer. Nunn had the talent but lost his way even before he lost his fight with Toney. Now he's doing life in prison! A waste. I like Benn and Calzaghe but these guys couldn't put a finger on McCallum or Toney or Nunn. Nunn in his prime would have ran rings around Calzaghe.
@Maxshard Toney over protected & over rated? The man who fought #1 contender & future light heavyweight champion Reggie Johnson 6 WEEKS after winning the title? Who fought Mike McCallum in his 3rd defence? Who beat Barkley for his 2nd title? Who fought Roy Jones? Who beat Vasilly Jirov, gold medalist, Val Barker winner & cruiserweight champ? Who held his own against heavyweights Ruiz, Peter, Rahman? Who kayoed Holyfield? Who started as a middleweight & ended as a serious heavyweight contender?
both men are class mccallum was dodged , watson was just unlucky , reminds me of junior witter a great fighter who is dodged and plagued with bad luck
McCallum was almost too good.....A lot of big money fighters avoided him because he was too dangerous........He could have very well beaten a lot of them, and even if you won,you wouldn't look good. Used to watch him train at a gym on Atlantic Ave in Queens.
McCallum showed his worth by coming over here to the UK and winning against both Watson and Herol Graham - both quality boxers themselves. Not bad going at all!
i was there at the albert hall for this fight- lennox lewis on undercard = 9th fight ! watson showed huge grit + nuts of steel but little else i'm afraid, he didn't trouble mike m' at all= leagues below. indeed of the british 'set' at the time watson to me was always at the bottom. tactically naive with a workrate that dropped at the wrong times. you need more than just courage. yes he was beating eubank until the terrible end..but it was eubank that finished it. wrong management i always think.
Very well put. I agree, Mike was at a totally different "skill level". And, indeed, with better management there would have been more successful longevity in Watson's career.
Watson had his moments, but your right he was outclassed overrall, cant say i agree with the workrate bit though, Michael was a grafter, but i have always felt Eubank would of been too clever for McCallum
Eubank could nt outsmart Calzaghe so how do you think hes going to outsmart McCallum eubanks hated bodyshots watch the kid milo fight so how would he cope with the The Bodysnatcher
Eubank could not outsmart McCallum..thats insane..none could, and defo not Eubank, he wasnt the slick type. Its a fight that I would have liked to see but sadly those fights never happened. But on an all time scale, it's pretty obvious that McCallum is ahead of Eubank, Watson, or Benn. And I think this fight pretty much shows that, Watson had grit and determination, but lacked in the finer points of boxing,like footwork, counterpunching and defense. U just dont eat up punches round after round.
Bringer dont judge Watson just on this fight cos thats daft , Watson learnt alot from this fight an became a better boxer , actually id rate him as one of the most balanced boxers ever, McCallum was fortunate Watson was a liitle immature with his boxing at the time if theyd had a rematch Watson wokd have given him a different fight like he did Eubank
yea watson was great really, at this particular time toney and mccalum were faboulous, not beatable if u where a mere human. But whatson and Benn and Eubank were not far behind, just this was so chillingly perfect.
@DaveyBoyEssexUK You're saying that McCallum and Eubank are more or less on the same level. Listen! When Watson fought McCallum he was fighting a man with YEARS of experience behind him. Who did Eubank fight? Kid Milo! The only name fighter was Benn. McCallum would knock Watson out every day of the week!
What was interesting about Mccallum is that he kept fighting as a middleweight at the same time as holding the light middleweight title. He would defend his title, then gain weight and fight a fight as a middleweight between each of his title defences.
They're called none title, tune-up or over the weight fights. Typically meaningless fights against trial horses - Keeping sharp fights where there's absolutely no point making 154 if you don't need to i.e. no title at stake.
McCallum in his prime could hardly be beaten by anyone. Only the great technician Sumbu Kalambay managed to beat him on points. And it was a narrow decision. Then Toney also beat him on points. But that was later on.
after the end of the 10th micky duff gets blamed for sending watson out for this round after the end of the 10th round rally by mcallum - I dont blame duff watson fought his ass off and was still firing back right up till the end , ichael Watson is one of the un-crowned greats of british boxing .
There you pretty much see the difference between world class fighters and sub world class fighters. Mccalum had it all and he would have beaten Benn, Eubank and watson every time. These guys were real good but didnt have the complete package, like mccalum.
McCallum, Watson, Benn, Eubank, Collins, Graham, Kalambay, Julian Jackson..... It's crazy how often these guys are overlooked while the careers of Jones and Toney are praised so heavily.
I like hearing people saying things about Benn being a ducker. But look who he fought. He had the balls to get in the ring with McClellan. And he hung in there to win. Shame about what ultimately happened, but no one was giving Benns much of a chance.
Agree,and do not forget Steve Collins who gave McCallum a very hard fight towards the latter part of his fight with him.He lost a razor thin decision to Reggie Johnson for the title and I think his other loss was to Kalambay! He is also one of the very few guys who sparred with Hagler and survived the sparring sessions!
in my opinion tho McCallum was overrated he took the credit of beating Curry, Honey was the one who made that quitter go downhill not McCallum, Nigel Benn would of destroyed McCallum and Eubank would of given him a boxing lesson, And Herol Graham well if he hadnt of been silly and turned him around he would of beat him
i met the guy.... at a dinner supper hes amazeing i mean to go all 12 rounds with roy jones jr in his prime and have it a close fight wow? i mean roy jones went 9 years without loseing a single round
In Watson's final fight vs Eubank he set a ridiculous pace which he kept up right until he got caught at the end of round 11, yet here he was exhausted. Did he have flu close to the fight or something?
A real shame that every time Watson fought for a world title. The champion he was challenging had the wrong style. IE: McCalloum a true world class counter puncher. Eubank ? Not much different. It forced Watson to fight aggressively. A style not suited to him at all.
'the fight was postponed twice and when it did finally take place Watson had been out of the ring for almost an entire year and was going into the fight with a bout of the flu and a fractured nose'.source wikipedia.
I liked the body snatcher, he was there to fight & entertain & earned his money.
Agreed that he was underated and most definately avoided!
good fight between great fighters.
Im convinced Watson would have been a bigger player in this division with a lil more luck.
Agreed, lets face it, Watson holds a 6 round K.0. over Nigel Benn and was nano-metres away from being the 1st man to beat Eubank, Michael was SOOO unlucky!
He was also the favourite to take McCallum here but, as you said, he had the flu and had been out for a year so this was forgivable, had he been fit he woud've won,probably on points.
This McCallum also went on to Draw against Toney, so you HAVE to rank Micheal Watson alongside EVERYONE from that time, including Roy Jones!
Sugar Ray Leonard, Thomas Hearns, Marvin Hagler, Roberto Duran...McCallum never got a fight with any of them. Why? because they knew how good he was and kept well away.
The guy was never knocked out or stopped either in 55 bouts (a very rare feat) after facing top men like Toney and Roy Jones Jnr when McCallum was way past his best. He must go down as one of the most underrated boxers ever.
Amen!! I made a comment just like this in a Jackson vs McCallum posting!What a shame.There is also another fighter you left out,Benitez!Also there were a lot of others in that weight class class that did not go near him.Hardrock Green ,Fletcher,Mugabi,Shuler,Kinchen,Csyz,Sims,Moore,Ect.Hard to believe on would duck a fighter who has the WBA belt! Yes ,a great chin also!!
Hearns and Duran should have fought him. McCallum was Duran's mandatory challenger at 154, but Duran took the big-money fight with Hearns instead, and got stripped of his title for it. At the time there was little talk of McCallum vs Hagler. Hagler had already retired after the SRL fight by the time of McCallum's big breakthrough against Curry at 154.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
hagler wud of knocked him out. so wud of a blown up lightweight duran. and so wud ray leonard and tommy hearns. mcclenan a gr8 fighter, but not as gd as them.
because he was high risk low reward, if u were a fighter ud kno thts a stupid fight to take, he lacked the fan base, and lack of name.Duran ducked and dodged no1, thats the p4p of all time best right there.
Amen my brother. Today's young fans need to be shown McCallum videos, together with those of McClellan and Julian Jackson, to get a better idea of why this is a great sport when done right. Too many young folks see Mixed Martial artists and think that they are superior to boxers. Generally they are judging by the crappy boxing that they are seeing today.
There's always one person that brings up the boxing vs. MMA thing.
You're right, though. The problem isn't boxing itself, it's the way it's being run these days. Too many aspects of boxing these days are a joke, and when those problems are resolved I'm sure you'll see more balanced viewership between boxing and MMA fans.
I think so. You could argue that Terry Norris achieved more at 154, but no way he beats McCallum if they fought, in my mind. Thomas Hearns has a case as well, he only had a few fights at 154 but in terms of who would win, Hearns vs McCallum is as big a toss up as there is. Apparently Hearns gave McCallum his nickname, "the bodysnatcher", as they used to spar regularly at Kronk.
Without qestion the greatest Light Middleweight of all time I was lucky enough to interview Mike last week for Setanta sports I was got to talk to Roy Jones,Calzaghe,Hopkins,Khan,Daiz,Barerra,Vinny Paz,Haye,Peter,Tony Tucker,Judah,Kevin Kelly,Mayweather,And Mike Tyson all on the Fight weekend at Vegas. Man I love my job
imo mike was always dodged. james toney was one of the few who faced up.
251mandem 1 month ago
EA Sports!
dagreatcapri82 2 months ago
jesus that ref i cant believe he bothered counting! jerk!!!
SmackNcrack01 5 months ago
Watson was coming back from the sidelines for 18 months, thats why he lost.
TheMRJabyouintheFace 7 months ago
@TheMRJabyouintheFace He lsot because McCallum was a great fighter, simple
DHTCF 4 months ago
Hands down two of the greatest tecnicians in boxing history
uglybabashouse2 11 months ago
@uglybabashouse2 i dont think so
FIGHTFANNERD3 7 months ago
Guys lose their ability to shake off damage with age and they are more suceptable to being knocked out.
ONENIGGER2ANOTHER 1 year ago
@ONENIGGER2ANOTHER Absolutely, there are many factors involved in being KO'd. Fatigue, physiology, bone and muscle morphology, diet, angles, forces, wills etc. But to say the term "granite chin" is a bullshit term really just shows that YOU don't know what you're talking about. I've been boxing for almost twenty years and I tell you from a long history of personal experience that certain men just have a god-given ability to absorb punishment, in spite of having all variables against them.
Tommyc1923 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 Lesson 1: There are 3 main knockout points on the human head. 1. jaw. 2. temple. 3. occipital region. Lesson 2: The specific causes for a knockout vary between points 1-3, but the main factors that PREVENT the ko from happening are 1. the overall amount of electrical current circulating from the brain to the spine, 2.) the strength of the muscles around bone articulations in points 1-3. Lesson 3: The combination of these 2 factors are what comprises the term known as "chin".
Tommyc1923 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 Alright Mister Spock go back to your 3 level chess game are wearing the point thin.
ONENIGGER2ANOTHER 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 You missed the boat on my last comment redneck! I simply stated the chin itself is NOT the factor. Its a misnomer and yes a BULLSHIT term. Now the fact that some guys like Chavez, Dempsey and Hagler among them are frighteningly impervious I agree on. The fact is that the mental aspect is greater than the physical. I am impressed that you know something because most these bitches on Youtube know shit about shit.
PEACE NIGGA!
ONENIGGER2ANOTHER 1 year ago
@ONENIGGER2ANOTHER I agree that the chin itself is not the factor. But "chin" is just a commonly used term which symbolizes the quality of being able to take a punch and does not refer to the literal chin of a human being, so you misinterpreted the conversation Jamdowner and I had. And rednecks don't play chess.
Tommyc1923 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 Bitch you are wearing this conversation out! And if thats your skinny ass on the video you need to give it up. Man you took almost 10 minutes with that old sloppy ass bald dude? LOL The only reason you won is his old ass just gassed. Why don't you just leave the fighting to the real deals and find another hobby. You remind me of Scott Blevins.
ONENIGGER2ANOTHER 1 year ago
@ONENIGGER2ANOTHER I like how you change the subject to cheapshot me once you realized that you were mistaken. You talk pretty tough for somebody who only has a video of them doing bagwork. You got good hands, but I'd look pretty good too if all I did was two minutes of heavy bag and threw only hooks. Bags don't hit back tho. MMA is different than boxing, but you're right, I'd just wait till you were tired and then take over. And I bet "sloppy ass" would take you down and choke you out.
Tommyc1923 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 I got a brown Belt in Judo that says otherwise. You are a fucking presumptious bitch to to think I am one dimensional or a recreational fighter. And I stand by my recommendation that you find another "Hobby".
ONENIGGER2ANOTHER 1 year ago
@ONENIGGER2ANOTHER Who did you get your brown belt in Judo under?
pearcemark2 7 months ago
@pearcemark2 Mas Tamura and Yasuhide Torigoshi.
ONENIGGER2ANOTHER 7 months ago
if i was in watson's corner, who are notorious for leaving him unprotected and taking too much punishment, I WOULD SCREAM, "HOLD 'EM, BUY SOME TIME HOLD EM AND RUN AROUND!!!" but no, he just takes a prolonged beating here and in the eubank fight. so sad, he is such a good guy...
rediculousnicholas 1 year ago
he was as good as any= both of these were
equally dodged at best by americans
ikarljoseph 1 year ago
the greatest jamaican boxer ever that man mike mcCallum
zipipis787 1 year ago
why count?
ThimplyTheBestht 1 year ago
Brutal. It's hardly surprising Watson ended up in such trouble with a non existent defence and such toughness.
huthut91 1 year ago
It takes a helluva fighter to do that to the likes of Michael Watson.
shire2005 1 year ago
That has to be one of the most one-sided rounds I've EVER seen. If this wasn't in the UK, it the ref would've waived it off a minute earlier. It's pretty much McCallum from :25 onward - Watson basically didn't counter for 2 minutes. Talk about a straight-up ass-whipping.
nduchene1 1 year ago
Dang that was a fast count. He was gone away. Mike was awesome!
shanemc68 1 year ago
mike mccallum never really got the credit he deserved,he was rock solid,the larry holmes of the middleweights.
garethella 1 year ago 7
@garethella
fuck that he was better than larry holmes. mccallum was a natural of the sport, and could win a fight any which way. larry was just a dude with a long jab and a good chin.
Robstailey 5 months ago
@Robstailey , dont talk bollocks mate, if you think that larry holmes was "just a dude with a long jab and a good chin" then you havent a clue.
garethella 4 months ago
This was too early in his career for Watson. McCallum was rock hard. The only real top fighter to dare challenge him was the great Donald Curry who was summarily knocked spark fucking out.
toddyhotrox 1 year ago
@toddyhotrox I agree...in some respects it reminded me of Bruno vs Witherspoon, a young Bruno against a more expirenced savvy fighter...Mccallum is neglected in discussing great middleweight fighters
Indul1 1 year ago
The body snatcher took Watson to school and England wept.
BufordStone 1 year ago
England wept why ? Its an honor to watch McCallum in action he didnt even want to knock out Watson if you watch , rubbish corner work and reffing they should have stopped the fight if i can see it they should have .
enlighten09 1 year ago
they think they are all good fighters! hurting each other, ow come on! think it over and over again! is it right!
MrJanuary1969 1 year ago
Ok, lets dispell a myth right here and right now, ALL fighters dodged people!!! It doesn't mean I respect them any less but it is the truth, I am a fighter too. Mike Mccallum is a prime example of a guy who was too good for his own good. None of the fab 4(Leonard, Duran, Hearns or Hagler) wanted anything to do with Mccallum. He was what is referred to in boxing as a high risk low reward fighter. I don't see how that is the case because Mccallum Had a belt, but no one was eager to risk a fight.
diamondbreaker23 1 year ago 2
Which one is McCallum? What color shorts is he wearing?
MrToastmaster2009 2 years ago
He is the one still standing lol
BringerOfTheTruth 2 years ago 4
Both fighters were class acts. Its a little harsh to judge Watson on a single performance. Boxing is about learning. Fighters are constantly improving after each bout until they peak (early to mid 30's). Watson's terrible accident occurred when he was around 27. During this bout he was just 25. McCallum became a pro at the same age. Had the accident not happened I'm sure he would got a world championship belt. (Lets not forget he was robbed during Eubank I).
roccosting 2 years ago
when you just stand there your going to get knocked out, no movement, what did watson expect
008maguire 2 years ago
you can see how watson recovered from nearly dying, in rematch with eubank, he"s got so much bottle. gives everything & is outgunned until he falls to the floor, no one with more balls than michael watson! hope he is getting better & better!
dan32113 2 years ago 2
Well said mate,what a warrior
STEVEEATON666 2 years ago
2briliant fighters.Watson had so much to come,Mccallum is a legend the guy gets zero on the forums but is a better fighter than jones and toney.Watson did so well to take a prime mccalum to 11.I remember when they offered Benn a mcallum fight and i quote"no fuc ing way"Mike took it
3rdpug 2 years ago 2
great fitness by mccallum to keep throwing at that rate, love how he always went back to the body when he got his opponents hands up
markdemoridotcom 2 years ago
mccallum only just scraped a split decision from the tap dancer herol graham. he wouldn"t have beaten the benn who beat mclellan, maybe not even gunshy roy jones that nite!!! watson came back from the dead after 2nd eubank fight, thats real courage in a real fight, there is no bigger fight than the one for your life!!!
dan32113 2 years ago 5
Benn would of knocked McCallum out, Watson could have beat him if he'd had a bit more belief, Eubank would definately of beat McCallum, who is a very overrated fighter for me
sportty89 2 years ago
Belief was not the problem, Watson was INJURED and ILL before the fight, he had a broken nose from sparring AND a cold.
Had Watson been 100% he would have won the fight which is why he was the favourite.
Benn AND Eubank actually avoided McCallum, not because they couldn't win, but because it was not a guarentee as McCallum was so good and more than capable of beating both guys.
Pound 4 pound Watson was superior to Benn AND Eubank but had ALOT of bad luck.
imperialpod 2 years ago
@sportty89 Let's see, Watson kayos Benn and you say Benn would have knocked out McCallum? You have no idea what you are talking about. McCallum was never knocked out in his entire career! McCallum would have done what he did to Jackson, a much harder puncher than Benn. He'd have ridden out the storm and then knocked him out. Eubank would have been comprehensively outboxed. There was no one on the British domestic scene that could touch Mike. No one!
jamdowner 1 year ago
@dan32113 Do you think McCellan and McCallum are in the same category? The only thing they had in common is similarity in last names. McClellan was a kayo artist who usually knocked guys out in the first couple of rounds. He had no stamina for a full 12 round fight. McCallum on the other hand was a well conditioned fighter who got better the longer the fight went on. Benn would've come out like he normally does, in a fury. Mike would weather the storm and knock him out at the latest in round 10.
jamdowner 1 year ago
@dan32113 McCallum was a great fighter. So was Bomber Graham. Benn was good, but both McCallum and Graham were better fighters. That's why so few wanted to fight the bomber.
DHTCF 1 year ago
@dan32113 you're insane, McCallum had a great chin was a very smart fighter and was avoided by all the great fighters of the 80's, Hagler, Hearns, Duran and Ray Leonard. You don't think he would've beaten Benn. He would've eaten Benn alive with his body attack remember this is the same Michael Watson that had just beaten Benn. You're giving Benn too much credit for the McClellan, McClellan blew his wade in rd 1, and he got hit with dozens of punches behind the head, not to mention the ref suxd
sinusbradycardia 11 months ago 2
@dan32113 mccallum ko2 julian jackson in 2 rounds. graham was destroyed by him.
cstrait 11 months ago
@cstrait mccallum knocked out Jackson, but Graham only lost a split decision to him! style"s make fights here is an examlpe, Hagler wpts 15 Duran, Hearns ko 2 Duran so you would think Hearns should beat Hagler, but Marvin stopped Hearns in the 3rd rd! It is simplistic to compare different fighters & how they fare against common opponent...
dan32113 11 months ago
@dan32113 mccallum's amazing chin would have frustrated benn, and his body attack would have beaten him
cstrait 11 months ago
Too much heart
johnatspray 2 years ago
Complete mismatch. One of the worst one-sided beatings that I I've ever seen in a boxing ring.
I've never rated Mr Watson. I think that many people are reluctant to give their true opinion of his abilities because of the tragic events surrounding his second fight with Eubank.
In my opinion. he may have been worthy of a crack at a domestic title; but world class - no chance.
originalsky 2 years ago
what rubbish, he gave nigel benn a boxing lesson tko6, won the first fight with eubank although robbed by the judges, and was pissing the second eubank fight when eubank landed that freak uppercut. i know i was at the fight! he had won at least 7 of the completed rds you know shit about boxing, or was benn shit as well because watson ko"d him!
dan32113 2 years ago
Say what you want, Benn and Watson was not world class at the time. To many great americans at the time. Today they would've been, like Calzaghe was. he would have been shit at the time. And no, Watson didnt win many rounds in this fight, he was doing ok until round 5 but then it was downhill and it was obvious that he was not able to land anything on McCalumn.
onlineboxingdotnet 2 years ago
Watson was ill and injured before this fight, he was actually favourite to win and would/should have done.
imperialpod 2 years ago
You nob head, read my other posts and you'll see why he lost this fight.
Watson WAS world class and you are ill-educated and foolish if you think different!
imperialpod 2 years ago 2
He might have been sick I dont know..but it doesnt change the facts. MCcallum has shown then and later on in his career that he is head and shoulders above an just above average plodder/slugger like Watson. Watson was ok and had heart, and he was entertaining but DONT rate him higher than a Jedi-Master like McCallum. The man was a boxing guru and is an all time great. Watson is not.
Benn,Eubank,watson was all good but below the great Americans at the time, Toney,Nunn,McCallum,Roy Jones.
BringerOfTheTruth 2 years ago
Yeah ok..McCallum is Jamaican..sorry.
BringerOfTheTruth 2 years ago
I'm not saying Watson was better than McCallum, but he was better than this performance shows, for christs sake Watson was exhausted by round 3 so that shows us something wasn't right.
Well, I think Barkley AND McClellan were regarded as TOP CLASS Yanks and guess who beat them BOTH?
Thats right, a BRITISH fighter who beat Barkley in 1 round, but it took the 'great' Toney 10 bloody rounds. Thats the same Toney who was Disgraced by Jones and EASILY whipped by Nunn until a lucky stoppage.
imperialpod 2 years ago
Good, as long as u dont say watson is better than McCallum. None denies that it was a good period for the brits. It's a shame that fights like Eubank-RJJ or the likes never were made.
BringerOfTheTruth 2 years ago
Lucky stoppage? Nunn was unable to stand, that's not luck, that's punching power. And Nunn wasn't winning that fight from the start of it, he won MAYBE three rounds at most. You need to watch that fight again.
Tommyc1923 2 years ago
@Tommyc1923 Nunn was waaaaayyyyyy ahead on points. 99-91, 98-92, 97-93! Toney's own corner said at the end of round 10, "You're running out of rounds." That's why Nunn was coasting & he got kayoed. It was a lucky stoppage. I remember watching Nunn's title winning fight against Frank Tate & there were times he kept his hands low & I thought Tate would counter. I don't care how tough you are, if you give someone a clean shot at your chin you're going DOWN!!!
jamdowner 1 year ago
@jamdowner A.) Judges don't get the video view that we. The judges perspective is never as accurate as what the camera shows. That's a fact. B.) Close rounds which could either way almost always default to champion on the scorecards. C.) I DO care how tough someone is. Not everyone goes down from a good shot to the chin, That's where "solid chin" comes from. Nunn is a great boxer, but doesn't have a world class chin. Toney is a great boxer AND has a world class chin. He's never been KO'd.
Tommyc1923 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 (1) The point is that Nunn was winning the fight regardless of your opinion. At the end of the day the three judges are the ones who decide victory or failure and not your opinion. Nunn was way ahead on points at the time. My opinion is that Nunn was way ahead as well. Even Toney's OWN CORNER knew he was behind! (2) There are a number of guys with great chins who have been kayoed by one punch. No one is invincible.
jamdowner 1 year ago
@jamdowner Okay, judges determine the outcome and not the fans, even though it's not always accurate, I see your point. However, if someone is kayoed by one punch, they by definition DO NOT have a great chin. Who with a great chin got taken down by one punch? Maybe by body blows, but body blows are an entirely different element by themselves. Toney, Ali, Marciano, Monzon, Calzaghe, they've been tagged by the biggest punchers known and none of them were ever ko'd by one punch.
Tommyc1923 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 Exceptions to the rule do not make the exception the rule! True that Ali & Monzon have been tagged by kayo artists (I can't say the same for Toney, Marciano and definitely not Calzaghe). Duran was one of toughest fighters of all time yet he was kayoed in two rounds by Hearns. Gene Fullmer was beautifully knocked out by Robinson yet went on to win the middleweight title and beat Robinson in the process. A classic example is Robbie Peden vs Nate Campbell. That's what I'm talking about!
jamdowner 1 year ago
@jamdowner Toney fought Roy jones jr, Macallum, Sam Peter, Barkley and Rahman; Marciano fought Walcott, Layne, Moore and an old Joe Louis, but punch is the last thing to leave a fighter. Calzaghe ate shots from Jones, Eubanks and Kessler. All of them can punch. And great chins finishing careers without being KO'd is not the exception by any standard. Ray Robinson was never KO'd by a punch, nor were Laguna, Jofre, Hagler, Hopkins, graham or gavilan. Fullmer was ko'd by Tiger: not a puncher.
Tommyc1923 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 Ok, TKO'd to be fair, but still.
Tommyc1923 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 (1) Fullmer was stopped by Tiger in his last fight! His manager stopped the fight. He was not kayoed. (2) McCallum was called the body snatcher. He was not a kayo artist like Julian Jackson. Neither was Barkley, Rahman and Peter knocked out only bums. When they increased the level of their competition their kayo ratings fall dramatically. (3) Yes punch is the last thing to leave a fighter but what are the odds if a young promising boxer fights an old faded great?
jamdowner 1 year ago
@jamdowner Barkley was definitely a known puncher, that's not really in dispute by anybody. And Macallum was also listed on the Ring's top 100 list of punchers, just watch the donald curry fight. And you're missing the point with Marciano and Louis. The point is that Marciano took joe louis's best shots, quite a few of them, and louis was ranked in that same list as the greatest puncher of all time. Marciano had an iron chin, like Robinson, and chin matters, alot, that's my point.
Tommyc1923 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 (4) Jones was never a kayo artist in the classic sense. He relied on speed and it was the quickness that his opponents never saw coming that knocked them out. Which is just my point. (5) Jersey Joe was ancient when he fought Marciano along with Moore and Louis. Joe was not a kayo artist. Moore was a light heavyweight and Louis was shot. Just because you can punch doesn't mean you get the opportunity to do so especially when you are old.
jamdowner 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 Using your logic about Marciano then it means that Kevin McBride who knocked out Mike Tyson has a great chin because he fought Tyson and won. But we know that Tyson was SHOT!!!! (6) You seem to have a different view on what a kayo artist is. To me a kayo artist is Julian Jackson, Mike Tyson, Gerald McClellan, Ernie Shavers, George Foreman, Ruben Olivares, etc. Kessler, Eubanks and Jones are not kayo artists. Calzaghe never took shots from Jackson or McClellan.
jamdowner 1 year ago
@jamdowner Using your logic then, since Watson KO'd Benn and McClellan did not, then Watson is a bigger puncher than McClellan. And most of Jackson's KOs were against lesser competition.
Tommyc1923 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 The equation I used is completely different from yours and you know it. The point I was making is that you said that Marciano had a good chin because he beat Joe Louis who was a kayo artist in his time. We both know that Louis was too old just like Tyson was too old when he fought McBride. So McBride beating Tyson doesn't mean he has a good chin.
Your point about Benn, Watson and McClellan is a completely different variable as these were men in their primes not like Tyson or Louis.
jamdowner 1 year ago
@jamdowner Louis being out of his prime would have little bearing on whether or not he could punch hard, because as you agreed, punch is the last to thing to go, and if you watch the fight you can see Marciano absorbing alot of punches, louis's best shots, who, even beyond his prime, still had ko power.
Tommyc1923 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 Are you telling me that Marciano would have beaten Louis in his prime?
jamdowner 1 year ago
@jamdowner I don't how you concluded that from anything I've said. My entire point is that Marciano had an IRON jaw. The Louis fight proves that. You can literally see marciano getting tagged by the hardest shots of a legendary slugger and not being ko'd. Louis's age was irrelevant because his power, which is primary factor of a ko, was still present. And as trash talked as Marciano's defense is, one would have to conclude that since he was never ko'd in his entire career, it was due to chin.
Tommyc1923 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 And we're getting away from the original point. My first comment was in reply to someone trash-talking Toney's skills and they used the Nunn fight as an example, calling it a "lucky stoppage". My contention is that it was not luck, but a matter of toughness, chin. Nunn was ko'd by a single shot from Toney. U made a blanket, hyperbolic statement = "...I don't care how tough someone is...", I don't agree with that. Marciano is an example of a fighter who persevered on toughness.
Tommyc1923 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923
you are right marciano is a damn tank it,s like them people who was hitting him was weak they are strong they have the power for a one punk Ko but marciano is tuff ass nails
alphared10 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 (7) Yes, Robinson, Hopkins, Hagler were never kayoed but there are going to be fighters who were never kayoed. I fail to see your point. There are some people who have had great chins who later on in their careers no longer have punch resistance. (8) I'm saying had Hagler stuck his head out against Thomas Hearns the way Nate Miller left his head open against Peden he'd have been knocked out!!! Just like tough guy Gene Fullmer was kayoed by Robinson.
jamdowner 1 year ago
@jamdowner Hagler did stick head out Hearns, and ate punches! Go watch the fight. The difference is he could take the punches, Hearns could not. Chin was the determining factor. Yes, chin does fade, faster than punching power, but both nunn and toney were in their prime when they fought. U = "I don't care how tough someone is, if you give someone a free shot to your chin, you're going down" and that's just not true to the reality of boxing. Toney had a better chin, hands down and chin matters.
Tommyc1923 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 Hagler did not stick his head out. He got tagged and you know Hearns broke his hand in the first round. But that's besides's the point. In boxing you're always told "Protect yourself at all times". If you have a cast iron chin why keep your hands up? You give anyone a free shot at your chin at some point of your career you are going down. How many examples of tough fighters have I got to give before you actually see this as a reality?
jamdowner 1 year ago
@jamdowner There's so many reasons to protect yourself besides the fear of a ko. A. the points on the scorecards, b. long term brain damage, which has nothing to do with chin, c. it doesn't feel good to get tagged. I'm not advocating that anyone is invincible, but certain people get knocked out easier than others, period, and that matters in boxing. Just because you speculate that although they've never been ko'd doesn't mean they couldn't be, it doesn't mean they could be either.
Tommyc1923 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 And it DOES matter who you are. Besides, you haven't provided a copious amount of examples, more like 3, which makes that appear more like the exception. Toney has a legendary chin, end of story, he claims no one on the earth can knock him out, and since it hasn't happened yet, and he's faced big-time punchers and been hit, it's presumptuous to say that he could be since there's no evidence of that. Just cause it happened to Nunn and Fullmer doesn't it could have happened to Robinson
Tommyc1923 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 Furthermore, I didn't want to bring this up because it's something anybody could lie about to try and prove a point, but I have personal experience in the ring, amateur and professional, and a large part of my opinion regarding chin stems from that experience. I know men who've been boxing for more than forty years and have never been ko'd. For you to say that they could be has little weight when they haven't been. 40 years! And sparred champions. CHIN matters, why don't you get that
Tommyc1923 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 Hey Tommy, I know that chin matters. I do get it! I'm just saying that no one is invincible. I'm not disputing that Toney had a tough chin. He went up middleweight to heavyweight and never got kayoed. I understand that! But even Toney was knocked down by Reggie Johnson & Johnson was a light hitter! My opinion is that under certain circumstances even the toughest guy can be kayoed. Why is it that kayo artists usually end up being kayoed themselves? Because they leave themselves open!
jamdowner 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 Maybe it's just my pet peeve but I hate absolutes in boxing. For example, they always say that you lose power when you step up in weight but there are a number of guys I know who have kept their power. David Haye for one. Manny Pacquiao, Thomas Hearns, Michael Moorer, the list goes on. Yet that somehow gets overlooked. It's the same with the so-called granite chin. I refuse to believe that someone could never get knocked out, no matter how tough they really are!
jamdowner 1 year ago
@jamdowner I understand that anything can happen in a fight, and I'm not speaking in absolutes so much as in extreme statistical improbabilities. Take Ali. One of the most resilient fighters ever. Was he physically impossible to ko? No. But, given how he performed in his career, regardless of whether or not he saw the punch coming, IMO the statistical probability of him getting ko'd is so incredibly small that it's a more than safe bet he won't be, irrelevant of the variables.
Tommyc1923 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 That being said, I respect your opinion and we'll just have to agree to slightly disagree. I have enjoyed our passionate debate.
Tommyc1923 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 AND iamdowner Neither of you known what you are talking about. The chin or jaw has nothing at all to so with it and cliches like "Granite Chin" are Bullshit. There are many factors in knocking a guy down or out and every situation is unique. Culmative punishment -overall fatigue and even mental pressures as well as physiology are all valid as well as sheer force of will. You don't have to be a huge puncher to take a guy out either another false-hood. Go study kinesioogy!
ONENIGGER2ANOTHER 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 The fact that some guys didn't get kayoed in their careers doesn't mean that they wouldn't have under different circumstances. For example, no one can deny that Marlon Starling didn't have a good chin yet against Tomas Molinares, as the bell rang, he dropped his hands and got clocked big time. HE NEVER SAW THE SHOT COMING! Had the bell not rang Starling wouldn't have gotten hit and he'd not have gotten knocked out and he couldn't retired like that.
jamdowner 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 It doesn't matter who you are. We are all human beings and yes some are tougher than others but the reality is no one is Clark Kent or Bruce Banner.
If I get tagged with a left hook coming out of nowhere and I did not see it there is a very good likelihood that I'm going down. You can ask Gene Fullmer, Nate Campbell, Marlon Starling, etc. You said that Nunn doesn't have a world class chin. You tell me when has Nunn ever been kayoed before or after the Toney fight!
jamdowner 1 year ago
@Tommyc1923 I meant Nate Campbell not Nate Miller.
jamdowner 1 year ago
(imperialpod) wait your talking about nigel benn, but then you lose me when you start talking about toney. toney never fought nigel benn.
tealbluewhite 2 years ago
I was was talking about how Nigel Benn whipped Barkley in only 1 round, whereas it took Toney 10 rounds to win his fight with Barkley.
Watson beat Benn and was VERY close to beating Eubank so he was without doubt world class.
Toney is regarded as a HOFer so to say Watson wasn't world class (as the other guy had said) was stupid as he beat Benn.
imperialpod 2 years ago
(imperialpod) ok i get you. i thought you said that it took benn 10 rounds to beat toney. you clarified it.
tealbluewhite 2 years ago
@imperialpod Hagler beats Duran by a point. Hearns kayos Duran in 2. Does that make Hearns better than Hagler? We know that Hagler destroyed Hearns in three. Pavlik kayos Jermain Taylor in 7. Taylor beats Hopkins twice over 12. Does that make Pavlik better than Hopkins? We know Hopkins ran rings around Pavlik and he has never been the same!!! Styles makes fight. One man's better result doesn't make him the better fighter!
jamdowner 1 year ago
You a yank BringerOfTheTruth?
With your description of yourself as 'I'm the best', it's highly likely.
Michael Nunn and Toney were typically over rated, over hyped protected domestic US fighters. They were even protected from other domestic American fighters.
Never hear protected US fighters do you?
Just protected European ones from unwordly American commentators, because some yanks think the US is the Mecca of boxing and yanks are the greatest.
What a jingoistic crock.
Maxshard 2 years ago 2
"Michael Nunn and Toney were typically over rated"..
Nunn where, Toney werent..toney is a future HOF, amazing career. To compare it with watsons is dumb. To compare any British boxer ever with either Toney, McCalumn or is plain ignorant. They are not up there, the closest you have is Calslappy , and all his "big" wins came when the big names where in their forties and shot. lol at britsh fighters..rofl
onlineboxingdotnet 2 years ago
I notice Mr (or is it Miss?) onlineboxingdotnet that you are from Denmark.
So where exactly do you rate Mikkel Kessler (Danish), who Joe Calzaghe beat then?
Why are you Rolling On the Floor Laughing anyway, have you been taking drugs, or did you just look at a list of Denmark's ten greatest fighters and discover you had to go back as far as the Vikings to find one?
Maxshard 2 years ago 2
I think Kessler and Slappy are good fighters, but not great. They are at the level of Watson and Benn.
onlineboxingdotnet 2 years ago
@onlineboxingdotnet I'm British and I have to agree with you. Toney is definitely a hall of famer. Nunn had the talent but lost his way even before he lost his fight with Toney. Now he's doing life in prison! A waste. I like Benn and Calzaghe but these guys couldn't put a finger on McCallum or Toney or Nunn. Nunn in his prime would have ran rings around Calzaghe.
jamdowner 1 year ago
@Maxshard Toney over protected & over rated? The man who fought #1 contender & future light heavyweight champion Reggie Johnson 6 WEEKS after winning the title? Who fought Mike McCallum in his 3rd defence? Who beat Barkley for his 2nd title? Who fought Roy Jones? Who beat Vasilly Jirov, gold medalist, Val Barker winner & cruiserweight champ? Who held his own against heavyweights Ruiz, Peter, Rahman? Who kayoed Holyfield? Who started as a middleweight & ended as a serious heavyweight contender?
jamdowner 1 year ago
@jamdowner Yes, that's the one.
Maxshard 1 year ago
@Maxshard Oh, I thought you meant someone else.
jamdowner 1 year ago
both men are class mccallum was dodged , watson was just unlucky , reminds me of junior witter a great fighter who is dodged and plagued with bad luck
wricey 2 years ago
McCallum was almost too good.....A lot of big money fighters avoided him because he was too dangerous........He could have very well beaten a lot of them, and even if you won,you wouldn't look good. Used to watch him train at a gym on Atlantic Ave in Queens.
playboymaxim 2 years ago
McCallum showed his worth by coming over here to the UK and winning against both Watson and Herol Graham - both quality boxers themselves. Not bad going at all!
ssww1976 2 years ago
agreed sensible words
davedewaltdaysh 2 years ago
McCallum was a superb technician, a real pro. i always enjoyed watching him box. And he had one of the great chins
Wamz1978 2 years ago
People say this McCallum would have beaten Tommy Hearns. Don't know if I see it, but he looks like one hell of a great fighter.
masrock 2 years ago
i was there at the albert hall for this fight- lennox lewis on undercard = 9th fight ! watson showed huge grit + nuts of steel but little else i'm afraid, he didn't trouble mike m' at all= leagues below. indeed of the british 'set' at the time watson to me was always at the bottom. tactically naive with a workrate that dropped at the wrong times. you need more than just courage. yes he was beating eubank until the terrible end..but it was eubank that finished it. wrong management i always think.
elainesman 3 years ago
Very well put. I agree, Mike was at a totally different "skill level". And, indeed, with better management there would have been more successful longevity in Watson's career.
jperez9805 3 years ago
Watson had his moments, but your right he was outclassed overrall, cant say i agree with the workrate bit though, Michael was a grafter, but i have always felt Eubank would of been too clever for McCallum
sportty89 2 years ago
McCullum would have destroyed Eubank with body shots
originalsky 2 years ago
your comment below is silly Watson beat Benn, who was a 2 time world champ, Eubank would of outsmarted McCallum
sportty89 2 years ago
Eubank could nt outsmart Calzaghe so how do you think hes going to outsmart McCallum eubanks hated bodyshots watch the kid milo fight so how would he cope with the The Bodysnatcher
hoodtop 2 years ago 2
Eubank could not outsmart McCallum..thats insane..none could, and defo not Eubank, he wasnt the slick type. Its a fight that I would have liked to see but sadly those fights never happened. But on an all time scale, it's pretty obvious that McCallum is ahead of Eubank, Watson, or Benn. And I think this fight pretty much shows that, Watson had grit and determination, but lacked in the finer points of boxing,like footwork, counterpunching and defense. U just dont eat up punches round after round.
BringerOfTheTruth 2 years ago
Bringer dont judge Watson just on this fight cos thats daft , Watson learnt alot from this fight an became a better boxer , actually id rate him as one of the most balanced boxers ever, McCallum was fortunate Watson was a liitle immature with his boxing at the time if theyd had a rematch Watson wokd have given him a different fight like he did Eubank
DaveyBoyEssexUK 2 years ago
yea watson was great really, at this particular time toney and mccalum were faboulous, not beatable if u where a mere human. But whatson and Benn and Eubank were not far behind, just this was so chillingly perfect.
BringerOfTheTruth 2 years ago 2
You got it right bro
nurvrax 2 years ago
@DaveyBoyEssexUK You're saying that McCallum and Eubank are more or less on the same level. Listen! When Watson fought McCallum he was fighting a man with YEARS of experience behind him. Who did Eubank fight? Kid Milo! The only name fighter was Benn. McCallum would knock Watson out every day of the week!
jamdowner 1 year ago
@jamdowner I hear you but my opinion is my opinion. :o)
DaveyBoyEssexUK 1 year ago
What was interesting about Mccallum is that he kept fighting as a middleweight at the same time as holding the light middleweight title. He would defend his title, then gain weight and fight a fight as a middleweight between each of his title defences.
Jorsalfar 3 years ago
They're called none title, tune-up or over the weight fights. Typically meaningless fights against trial horses - Keeping sharp fights where there's absolutely no point making 154 if you don't need to i.e. no title at stake.
orbtastic 3 years ago
McCallum in his prime could hardly be beaten by anyone. Only the great technician Sumbu Kalambay managed to beat him on points. And it was a narrow decision. Then Toney also beat him on points. But that was later on.
Jorsalfar 3 years ago
after the end of the 10th micky duff gets blamed for sending watson out for this round after the end of the 10th round rally by mcallum - I dont blame duff watson fought his ass off and was still firing back right up till the end , ichael Watson is one of the un-crowned greats of british boxing .
chisacat 3 years ago
There you pretty much see the difference between world class fighters and sub world class fighters. Mccalum had it all and he would have beaten Benn, Eubank and watson every time. These guys were real good but didnt have the complete package, like mccalum.
onlineboxingdotnet 3 years ago
That's what it looks like when a Jamaican kicks an Englishman's butt.
BufordStone 3 years ago
McCallum, Watson, Benn, Eubank, Collins, Graham, Kalambay, Julian Jackson..... It's crazy how often these guys are overlooked while the careers of Jones and Toney are praised so heavily.
jorgekluney 3 years ago 6
That's right.1987 to 1995 was the golden age of 160 168 lb boxing.
flegsiboy 3 years ago
You know it, flegsiboy.
Those were guys always willing to mix it up.
I like hearing people saying things about Benn being a ducker. But look who he fought. He had the balls to get in the ring with McClellan. And he hung in there to win. Shame about what ultimately happened, but no one was giving Benns much of a chance.
jorgekluney 3 years ago
Michael nunn was good too.He was ahead of toney on points most of the fight & that one punch knockout of kalambay.Too bad he's in jail now.
flegsiboy 3 years ago
Agree,and do not forget Steve Collins who gave McCallum a very hard fight towards the latter part of his fight with him.He lost a razor thin decision to Reggie Johnson for the title and I think his other loss was to Kalambay! He is also one of the very few guys who sparred with Hagler and survived the sparring sessions!
1975tooto 3 years ago
I remember seeing this at the time, hell of a fight. Watson ran out of steam & took too many head punches. McCallum was relentless that night.
HowardIrwin 3 years ago
what a great performance by McCallum here.
ichbingott18 3 years ago
Apparently Hagler avoided McCallum.
peaceman1234567 3 years ago
Thats true and Duran too
charliebrownw11 3 years ago
worrying how slow Watson's corner men came over to him when it was obvious he was totally fucked.
little69111 3 years ago 2
I've always been a McCallum fan,he is a BEAST!!
jonnyblaze0187 3 years ago
very, very slow though
stevenmacca89 3 years ago
If ya got the skill,ya don't need to be fast or slow or have a lot of power or no power..Those are just bonuses..
jonnyblaze0187 3 years ago
in my opinion tho McCallum was overrated he took the credit of beating Curry, Honey was the one who made that quitter go downhill not McCallum, Nigel Benn would of destroyed McCallum and Eubank would of given him a boxing lesson, And Herol Graham well if he hadnt of been silly and turned him around he would of beat him
stevenmacca89 3 years ago
i met the guy.... at a dinner supper hes amazeing i mean to go all 12 rounds with roy jones jr in his prime and have it a close fight wow? i mean roy jones went 9 years without loseing a single round
fornever5656 3 years ago
everyone spread the word about mike mccallum and get this video watched hes to underrated feel sorry for the guy
fornever5656 3 years ago
you are right Mike McCallum is the most underrated fighter in the world !
frenchgoldenboyfan 3 years ago 3
No shame in losing to one of the finest boxers of all time and certainly one of the most underrated.
SimonDolan 3 years ago
In Watson's final fight vs Eubank he set a ridiculous pace which he kept up right until he got caught at the end of round 11, yet here he was exhausted. Did he have flu close to the fight or something?
sitiyzaltv 3 years ago
NICE
chillenx420 3 years ago
A real shame that every time Watson fought for a world title. The champion he was challenging had the wrong style. IE: McCalloum a true world class counter puncher. Eubank ? Not much different. It forced Watson to fight aggressively. A style not suited to him at all.
ianandori 3 years ago
watson was a cracking fighter..if only he was abit fitter in this fight. mke mcallum..hell of a fighter
rossow88 3 years ago 2
'the fight was postponed twice and when it did finally take place Watson had been out of the ring for almost an entire year and was going into the fight with a bout of the flu and a fractured nose'.source wikipedia.
I liked the body snatcher, he was there to fight & entertain & earned his money.
Agreed that he was underated and most definately avoided!
good fight between great fighters.
Im convinced Watson would have been a bigger player in this division with a lil more luck.
harrio7 3 years ago 3
Agreed, lets face it, Watson holds a 6 round K.0. over Nigel Benn and was nano-metres away from being the 1st man to beat Eubank, Michael was SOOO unlucky!
He was also the favourite to take McCallum here but, as you said, he had the flu and had been out for a year so this was forgivable, had he been fit he woud've won,probably on points.
This McCallum also went on to Draw against Toney, so you HAVE to rank Micheal Watson alongside EVERYONE from that time, including Roy Jones!
imperialpod 3 years ago
Sugar Ray Leonard, Thomas Hearns, Marvin Hagler, Roberto Duran...McCallum never got a fight with any of them. Why? because they knew how good he was and kept well away.
The guy was never knocked out or stopped either in 55 bouts (a very rare feat) after facing top men like Toney and Roy Jones Jnr when McCallum was way past his best. He must go down as one of the most underrated boxers ever.
Panthera0nca 3 years ago 4
Amen!! I made a comment just like this in a Jackson vs McCallum posting!What a shame.There is also another fighter you left out,Benitez!Also there were a lot of others in that weight class class that did not go near him.Hardrock Green ,Fletcher,Mugabi,Shuler,Kinchen,Csyz,Sims,Moore,Ect.Hard to believe on would duck a fighter who has the WBA belt! Yes ,a great chin also!!
1975tooto 3 years ago 2
Dig that list of fighters you posted here! The game of boxing ain't what it used to be. Can you make such a list today? Same quality? No fuckin' way.
pkt171 3 years ago
Hearns and Duran should have fought him. McCallum was Duran's mandatory challenger at 154, but Duran took the big-money fight with Hearns instead, and got stripped of his title for it. At the time there was little talk of McCallum vs Hagler. Hagler had already retired after the SRL fight by the time of McCallum's big breakthrough against Curry at 154.
Aurelian147 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
hagler wud of knocked him out. so wud of a blown up lightweight duran. and so wud ray leonard and tommy hearns. mcclenan a gr8 fighter, but not as gd as them.
alectrifyingalex 3 years ago
Why did Duran and Hagler openly avoid McCallum in the mid 80s?
karlos81 3 years ago
because he was high risk low reward, if u were a fighter ud kno thts a stupid fight to take, he lacked the fan base, and lack of name.Duran ducked and dodged no1, thats the p4p of all time best right there.
alectrifyingalex 3 years ago
Because they would have got beaten
charliebrownw11 3 years ago
Amen my brother. Today's young fans need to be shown McCallum videos, together with those of McClellan and Julian Jackson, to get a better idea of why this is a great sport when done right. Too many young folks see Mixed Martial artists and think that they are superior to boxers. Generally they are judging by the crappy boxing that they are seeing today.
pkt171 3 years ago
There's always one person that brings up the boxing vs. MMA thing.
You're right, though. The problem isn't boxing itself, it's the way it's being run these days. Too many aspects of boxing these days are a joke, and when those problems are resolved I'm sure you'll see more balanced viewership between boxing and MMA fans.
vjnctn 3 years ago
As a pure 154 pound fighter is he the best?
ojsucksit 3 years ago 2
I think so. You could argue that Terry Norris achieved more at 154, but no way he beats McCallum if they fought, in my mind. Thomas Hearns has a case as well, he only had a few fights at 154 but in terms of who would win, Hearns vs McCallum is as big a toss up as there is. Apparently Hearns gave McCallum his nickname, "the bodysnatcher", as they used to spar regularly at Kronk.
Nangus01 3 years ago
Without qestion the greatest Light Middleweight of all time I was lucky enough to interview Mike last week for Setanta sports I was got to talk to Roy Jones,Calzaghe,Hopkins,Khan,Daiz,Barerra,Vinny Paz,Haye,Peter,Tony Tucker,Judah,Kevin Kelly,Mayweather,And Mike Tyson all on the Fight weekend at Vegas. Man I love my job
SpiritFearon 3 years ago
hows it goin spencer just saw your interview hope your blessed, its your boy, wont reveal myself here but will visit you in the gym soon, 1.
astralwarrior8 3 years ago
McCallum's body shot's really wore down his opponet's.
86pimp3 3 years ago 2
watson was unlucky to get knocked out he was a brilliant fighter, mccallum is just sheer class
wricey 3 years ago