If people think that comparing the writings of the Biblical authors to the Classic Greek myths is nothing but meaningless speculation which shows nothing, they do not understand just how unoriginal humans are and just how frequently they copy their predecessors.
@shrikechan especially when so many stories are identical, apart from the hero himself. If there weren't so many glaring similarities, if you had to try to see something in common, then I could understand someone concluding the this comparison is nothing but someone's imagination creating connections that aren't really there. But when it's so plain that it seems like the author is throwing it in your face on purpose? No.
-This approach is pretty much non-falsifiable. Looking for a pattern between literary works will yield patterns if you look long and hard enough.
-You don't just allow for copying plot elements from Odyssey, but you give yourself extra wiggle room by allowing for "improvements" and even "inversion". Which interactions between people is then not covered before you even start comparing? You see similar ad hoc adjustments with people who fit Nostradamus to historic events.
@smaakjeks do me a small favor, watch the vids until 9b and THEN tell me Mark didn't copy the Odyssey and Greek myths. Deal? At that time, I'll answer/reply to any criticisms you have. thanks.
I've watched them now, and even commented. I thoroughly enjoyed the whole video series so far and I think it's likely that Mark copied from Odyssey and other myths. Notice that I never stated otherwise. But, the method is still pretty ad hoc with lots of wiggle-room. Thus, there is a risk of finding more patterns than there actually are. It weakens the case presented. To be extra critical against positions I agree with is important to me; that's why I wrote what I wrote.
@smaakjeks 6) interpretability or intelligibility -- the capacity of the original text to make sense of some detail in the new work (e.g. why does Jesus want his Messiahship kept secret?)
All this is covered in MacDonald's book which you would enjoy if you haven't had a chance to read it. There has to be a limit in how much info I include in a vid and how "scholarly" it becomes. I chose to simply let the stuff speak for itself mostly. hope that makes sense.
To me, the most convincing aspect is how much like contemporary fiction Mark wrote. He doesn't write a historical document, but a work using dramatic tools of the trade, as you pointed out. I think the comparisons between Mark and the Odyssey stories in this video are those that are the biggest stretch of plausibility. To me they seem quite different. There are probably other works that fit better, as other commentators have pointed out.
@smaakjeks I agree ref the fictional format and disagree ref the Odyssey pt. Many other ancient authors COPIED those older stories and reworked them. I think if you'd read MacDonald's book, you'd likely change your mind.
anyway, thanks for watching! I'm trying to churn out more of these but the faster i go, the more likely it is for me to make a flub that I'll have to annote which I don't like. :)
@smaakjeks if you didn't want to read the whole book, you could find reviews of it and sort of glean some of the stuff and what the reviewers say which might just be what you are looking for. search Richard Carrier and MacDonald. he did a review of it. Here's another page about it. vridar (dot) info/xorigins/homermark/mkhmrfiles/index (dot ) htm
@smaakjeks And as for falsifiable... I don't think that comes into play. This is always going to be somewhat of a speculation and the evidence either convinces you or it doesn't. :( just my take.
@727Phoenix Yeah, I wish I had more time to bone up on the geography of that whole area. It would put a few more puzzle pieces in place, I'm sure. thank ya
Interesting. But any attempt to find literary models incorporated by Gospel authors should take into account Hellenistic romances. There were lots of interesting adventure stories composed long after Homer, though no doubt indebted to him, that might offer narrative elements far more specific than the very loose analogies to Homer. Especially those with cliff hangers where friends seek for a friend imprisoned in a tomb ... only to find that the body is gone!
@epweissengruber I cover the "missing hero" motif in this series as well as some VERY specific Odyssey and Greek mythology connections to Mark. But this series is not about that, per se. It's trying to put a FEW items out showing the unreliability of the NT ref historical support for Jesus' resurrection. As such, I think I've actually covered way more than I really need to ref Homer/Mark. That section ends at part 9b. thanks!
Again, I could say the author of Mark was purposefully paralleling the known narratives of the Odyssey in order to demonstrate to the widest audience (meaning he could then include those who believed Greek mythological narratives; he didn't need to disprove them, just show how this very real Jesus was better) that Jesus is superior in every way, thus demonstrating that fact through narrative parallels.
Great video, im going to have to save some for this sunday morning, so i can attend my own personal, private "bible study" the way its -ment to be studied.. ps that is true, why would jesus Sail in bad weather?? for a Pilot, that is a Big No, No, you stay on the ground, But im still stuck on this almighty God thing, jesus certainly does'nt need a Man made device to travel, why not a Star Gate?
@karlbuttler almost EVERYTHING about the Jesus story is clear fiction when you sit back and think about it logically. some people can, some can't and some just need more time and maturity and time away from their clique and clans to grow up and think for themselves.
the way you go about this subject is what we need,well thought out educated content.coming at believers in a way that puts them on the defense and implies that to believe as they do they must be uneducated isnt the answer.at that point listening stops. ive found the best way of opening minds is by actually studying the bible with them.most believers even your most ardent and literal ones dont really know there bible.keep it up
@bryankorth I agree. IF you can present the stuff in a non-aggressive way, more CHristians may watch it and think about it. I do this kind but I also do my rants. It's hard to not rant when you know that so many people are caught up in what I believe is a falsehood. I want to wave a wand and fix them. :)
13 miles is quite big for a lake... I think quite strong winds are possible, depends on the regions climate. However the odyssey paralel is interesting, I was thinking on a concidence at the begining but it's kind of too many..
@dumbnetworks Not really. Winds blow west to east and that means they will only blow across left to right which is about 8 miles at it's widest AND it is sunk below the surrounding hills (not open ocean like Mark's tale would imply). Once you get out onto flat ocean, yes, waves could reach that high and strong enough to capsize a boat of 12 men. No way could wind blow up waves tall enough with only 8 miles to work with and the level BELOW surrounding hills.
@TruthSurge It's possible if the boat suck. I went sailing on a smaller lake than this one and was suprised by a quite fast storm, I didn't expect big waves but acually they don't have to be big on a low level lake its enough to throw your boat up and hit it hard to the bottom of the lake, so basically you can die quite easily and surpisingly.
@dumbnetworks I suppose you COULD capsize if your captain ALSO sucked. HAHAHA but this is a debatable point. I say why would Jesus even be out on the lake DURING a storm? you look up, lightning, clouds, rain? cmon man. it's fiction.
@TruthSurge the prpoblem is with these kind of books that they are fuckin old, and is very hard to find "the truth". I apreciate your research. Keep on doin it :) subbed
@TruthSurge Oh no, I'm not making fun of you! I thought it was rather cool, and I do the same thing sometimes, it makes people laugh :p okay now im gonna sit here and wait patiently for the next vid ^_^
@TheMorriganLeFay I was just doing another rhyme! hahaha "fun of ME, then you'll SEE" so daz all. yeah, part 11... it'll happen. I need to just take one more pass at the script and make sure I beez happy with it b4 I voice it.
@Foxcanine1 yeah, it's Mark 4:36 And when they had sent away the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship. And there were also with him other little ships.
This is directly prior to them sailing to meet the demon-possessed man. :)
@Foxcanine1 Ya gotta wonder why there would be OTHER ships with Jesus here unless it was just because Mark was copying the Odyssey since Odysseus was sailing with several ships. Just another straw on the camel's back.
Straws? More like bricks if you asked me. This camel isn't just lying on its stommach from the exhaustion. It's down right being crushed by bricks. I have to go find a copy of Homer's odyssey as well as the book you mentioned ( which I can't remember off hand) but if this all pans out it is incredible evidence against Jesus Resurrection.
A personal suggestion on my part would be The Jesus Puzzle. Cruise the site. More material than can count.
@Foxcanine1 I've done like 6 hrs of vids on the jesus myth theory so I'm totally aware of Doherty's stuff and G.A. Wells. :) It all fits together too. That's what's so amazing. You know it's on the right track when it doesn't contradict anything else and it answers MORE puzzles than it creates and more puzzles than the other theories answer. thank ya
I am curious though as to why Mark would use The Odyssey. After all, there were other Greek stories that matched the son of god hero comes to save the day and defeat the evil monster type stories circulating in Greece. like Perseus, Hercules, and such. So why choose the story he did. Does this author try to delve into that?
I wonder, Did Mark solely write the gospel because of the Temple or were there other reasons? You have repeaked my interest in this subject. Another thought comes to mind. Why do you think would Mark see a need to appeal to Greeks by incorporating stories if he thought the end times were imminent? What made him, and Paul and others, try to covert others. Compassion or possibly previous teachings from Q?
@Foxcanine1 I don't know that he was appealing to Greeks that much as in trying to convert them but some of that is in there for sure. It's a big pot of this and that. Mark didn't have ONE motive only. He had many. He wanted to pwn the Jews for rejecting God's message (that he had a son) which he does by having Jesus himself pwn them verbally. He wanted to paint the jews as wrong and Christians as right. He wanted to absolve Rome of any wrongdoing (remember the soldier at jesus death?)
@Foxcanine1 ref endtimes... that's why I say he wasn't trying so much to appeal as in convert. I think the main thing for mark was to paint Christians as right and jews as horribly wrong. that'd be the main purpose in his gospel. I don't believe Q ever existed, fyi.
I agree that there was probably multiple reasons. My guess would have partly been to make sense of the Temple's destruction as well as to appeal to Greeks and to show Jews are wrong.
Still, the idea that Mark would use and improve Greek works would show that he had Greeks in mind. I'm Curious as to your reasoning for not accepting Q. Or is this something that would take far too much space for comments to handle?
@Foxcanine1 Q... I need some Q proponent to explain to me the NECESSITY of the document. I simply don't see how it's necessary. It may be that I haven't seen a good enough explanation yet because tons of people seem to think it's a necessary document. Doherty is one. MacDonald is one. So, I asked MacDonald to send me his Q writing and... nothing. :( so, if you have a working idea of the necessity of it, feel free to tel me! hahaha private msg or comment here.
@Foxcanine1 yes, yes, there's wiki but nothing I've read has clicked in my head as it being a necessary source. Maybe you have something along those lines that will make some sense. But also, admittedly, I have not devoted a lot of time just studying the Q hypothesis (or theory?). I've really wanted to read MacDonald's thoughts on it but he never mailed me his writing as he said he would dammit!! hahahha
so, that's where I stand on Q right now but hey, I am open to see why it's needed.
@AussieNaturalist It's not really plagiarising. . .Mark switched it up enough that it took almost 2000 years to discover! :)
Kinda like the difference between "Jeannie" and "Bewitched", both about supernatural chicks who live with a man and turn his life into a living hell, but just different enough to avoid copyright squabbles.
@kirafan68 of course it is. Greece was way ahead of Palestine and the Middle-East in 800 BCE. The tiny group of nomads wandering deserts in robes and getting conquered every few hundred years had no way of competing with Greece on an intellectual level. Poor blokes. They spent all their time ass up praying to a non-existent god instead of figuring out the world like the Greeks were trying to do.
Gerasenes, probably of the ancient city of Gadara a Greek settlement is opposite of Galilee. They were opposite in that they were non-Jews
Travel took a long time then so it was unlikely Gerasenians had heard of Jesus. But as soon as Jesus arrives the demoniac knows Jesus right away calling Jesus the Son of the Most High
So that's another inverted parallel you missed, the Cyclops didn't know who Odysseous was but the demoniac knew who Jesus was
@lungay009 Yes, you could make that point. Or it may be that Mark was simply continuing to adhere to his "demons know Jesus' true identity because they were... demons" motif. ALTHOUGH, I recall one human SOMEHOW knowing Jesus as the son of god also. So, it seems Mark has Jesus being recognized by many but the common thread is Jesus telling them to keep silent so that holds true in the demon possessed man scene as well. Thanks for point that out. But to cross the sea of G. could take 2 hrs
@lungay009 It is about 8 miles across so you could conceivably sail or row across it in a few hours. That's not a long journey and another clue that Mark was writing fiction as he makes it sound like some long journey to a distant land instead of the 8 miles or so it really was. :)
@lungay009 well if you had to walk from one side to the other around, it would be about oh, 12 miles or so. you can walk that in probably several hours if you were hustling or maybe 6 hrs. again, Mark makes it seem as if they journeyed 100 miles or something. Just my take.
@cosmicskydaddy1 I shall have no other AGs before me, dammit!!!! Thou shalt grovel at the feet of the one true AG! Grovel and salivate and... bring me ice cream once in a while. yeah. what? three commandments aren't enough???? why you...
@TheCurmudgen You are correct. I guess i was letting my mind roam from Mark and shouldn't have. :( But you are right. In Mark's text, there is no mention of Judas dying so all 12 are assumed to live if you just read Mark's tale. I think I will at least annotate that in the vid. thanks!
@TeesByTruthSurge I have downloaded all the 6 videos in this series and watched them consecutively a couple of times in search of something convincing, as I am always searching for ammunition against religionists. your "most revolutionary idea in New Testament studies in the last 1900 years" better gain some substance to it. otherwise it is nothing more than a target for ridicule from the religious side.
worse than religion is bad arguments against religion.
@TruthSurge btw, even if mark was indeed using stylistic and narrative elements from homer he could still be telling the real story of the man jesus (of course adding the fantastic and supernatural stuff).
@Meskiagkasher sure. using details from a fictional story as the details of his and it's still a valid story of Jesus! what then could we believe about Jesus if it's all mashed up with fiction?
@TruthSurge you have not yet demonstrated that mark is using details of homer's story. your method is equal to that of biblical "historians" who try to tie the biblical israelites to egyptian history.
@Meskiagkasher Once again, if the story is at least part fiction, why should one believe any of it? How does one separate the fiction from the supposed history? It keeps coming back to ones' choice to believe which in the end is utterly meaningless.
@MacNutz2 the story is at least part fiction because it contains supernatural stuff, and not because the auther may have used a writing style borrowed from homer. it would be necessary to see whether the greek is in fact similar.
however, if mark actually believed in the miracle stuff he would not have been wrinting a deliberate work of fiction.
@Meskiagkasher It is still horse shit. I for one do believe he consciously used Homer as a template. The mix of fiction and possible (note, possible) fact has the same effect as mentioned previously. There is no way to separate one part of the narrative from the other and therefore NO reason to believe any of it. No matter the motives of the writer(s) and subsequent editors.
Besides, it appears the writer borrowed more than 'style'.
@MacNutz2 that's what I've been saying but I think some people have a bias that will simply cause them to reject whatever is presented. In my NEXT video, I begin to actually show some stunning parallels that I'd love to hear someone try to dismiss as coincidence. I have only begun to bring it! hahaha man... my final parallel.... it's going to be like that uppercut that put Mike Tyson on the mat. POW!
@TeesByTruthSurge Yeah man, I see that. I see a lot of comments always nagging you to put out the next video, HURRY, put it out!!! Let me say this: Take as much time as you fucking need, we'll wait 'cause we know the finished product will have your signature: Accuracy.
OK. Listen up. I am fucking SICK of giving you compliments. I'm beginning to sound like a groupie, but at risk of JUST THAT I have to say:
I'm very impressed. Combined with your knowledge, technical abilities, humor and MOST OF ALL a genuine person who interacts with people online JUST like he would if face to face, (not abusing anonymity) you are quickly becoming one of my favorite youtubers.
@pakleglia I know there seems to be a hard-on by ancients for the number 12 tho more than 13. Just do a search for 12 or (twelve) in the Odyssey. It does turn up tons of times. 12 zodiac symbols, 12 tribes of israel, 12 disciples, 12 inches in a foot !
12 is a neat number mathmatically, you can divide it by 2,3,4, and6 and get a whole number. And by 5 and 10 and still just go to one decimal place. Ten on the other hand can only be divided by 2 and 5 to get a whole number and any thing else results in an infinitely repeating decimal.
@TruthSurge and you think you can convince a religionist if you can't even convince an atheist ?
what is the purpose of this video series? the completely arbitrary manner in which the two works are compared could be applied to *any* two narratives on the planet. i bet you could also show that mark is derived from moby dick.
@Meskiagkasher "and you think you can convince a religionist if you can't even convince an atheist ?"
Again, I'm not done presenting my evidence. Who stands up during the middle of prosecuting attorney's talking and yells in the courtroom "NOT GUILTY! That's my final answer, your honor!" My assumption is that if you don't listen to all the evidence, you are not interested in whether it is true but in merely keeping your current beliefs intact. continued....
@TruthSurge you have not presented any *evidence* yet. in your analogy the judge would stand up during the middle of prosecuting attorney's talking and yell in the courtroom "get to a point and finally make a case".
you have presented numerous comparisons of the texts were the stories differ substantially, yet you claim similarity. your summary of parallels is devoid of real *parallels*.
can you demonstrate that mark *copied* phrases from homer or used the *same* analogies or play on words?
@Meskiagkasher "get to a point and finally make a case".
and there's the difference between the lawyer analogy and actual research. There is no time constraint on learning but you seem to have an aversion to it.
@Meskiagkasher The purpose is to show that Mark was writing deliberate fiction WHICH undermines the historicity of the resurrection, ya think?
ALSO, if you can find specific parallels to Moby Dick in Mark's gospel, you could write a book and make a LOT of money - especially since Mark would have to have been prophetic. :)
"ALSO, if you can find specific parallels to Moby Dick in Mark's gospel, you could write a book and make a LOT of money - especially since Mark would have to have been prophetic. :)"
Hey... if Mark can plagiarise from My friend Homer, then my friend Herman can steal from Mark.. that bastard got way more credit than all of them together deserved anyway.
@TruthSurge the point i was trying to make is that your method of comparing the narratives is so arbitrary and speculative that you could construe "parallels" between any two works of fiction.
of course the gospel of mark is a work of fiction, deliberate or otherwise. and the assumptions about the author among biblical scholars suggest that he was familiar with greek literature. yet your claim of mark directly copying from homer is not sustained by the arguments you have presented so far.
@AtheistReport ah, but I must correct you. The Homer/Mark link is not my original research. I first heard it from a book by Dennis R. MacDonald so as far as I know he is the first person to link Mark to Homer but not 100% sure. thank ya!!!
Brilliant series, @TruthSurge! I've heard this idea of Mark's gospel being based on the Odyssey before and thought it compelling, but you've pretty much convinced me it's true.
Who's your source? It should have long been in the critical literature.
Great work. Much appreciated, even if not your own synthesis. I had never come across such a fascinating literary parallel, but had also not taken the intellectual pains.
@AtheistCitizen Dennis R. MacDonald's great book, "The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark". it's awesome. He first did this with Acts of Andrew which I have not read though. He's working on two new books and I think an article on the necessity of Q but I am fairly convinced Q never existed and there is no necessity for such a document. It was only necessary to the Christians who could not buy that an evangelist would invent part of their gospel. thanks!
great series TS - I have not read the Greek epic but if what you say is true with all these parallels, it totally dumbfounds me that whole cultures throughout history have been changed because of a TOTAL fable.I of course doubted the resurrection b/c of inconsistencies in the gospels but reserved my opinion of Jesus even existing. I am quite intrigued. - btw Mark trying to hit a Homer that cracked me up. I look forward to the next vid with great anticipation.
@ModernDeism Your feeling of "dumbfoundedness" heheh is shared. When I pause to think (as I often do throughout the day) and consider that one fictional allegory about the heavenly jesus of early christianity became seen as historical just 100 years later and 1800 years of people believing it literally and murdering millions in the name of it (when it's all fiction anyway), I just have no words. it's worse than any horror or sci-fi plot I've ever read.
Okay, my mind is hereby blown. Even knowing the Cyclops story, I didn't think to look for inversions. That's actually kind of clever of Mark. I may have to start watching for those sorts of inversions more often, now.
I told my dad about this piece, and it got his attention.
@TheBronzeDog thank ya. YES, you see, when the author is copying a work like Homer's Odyssey (which was like a blueprint for aspiring authors), they wanted to emulate but not necessarily copy outright. the point was to become a good author yourself and so they copied themes and aspects and a few oddities almost verbatime BUT they also inverted and edited to try and IMPROVE upon the blueprint (as they saw improvement). If Odysseus needed 12 men to fight, Jesus might go alone. etc. thank ye.
I like this Homeric epic fiction hypotheses. but am not convinced yet. I hope you got more and even better arguments in the upcoming videos. I'll be waiting eagerly.
Is it significant that the Gospel of Mark by scholars is estimated to have been written shortly after the death of Paul?
@greyman000 thanks. yes, I have about 2 or 3 more vids and yes, I'm saving one parallel that's going to blow your mind! hahahaha I can't even wait. I'm drooling. hehehe
Um, I date Mark's gospel to about 72CE (see my dating the NT vid for why) so if you believe Acts (and I don't) that would still correlate to being after Paul's death. but no, I see no significance in that. Mark was written right after Rome sacked the Jews. There is no better explanation as it explains too much.
@TruthSurge Yes, I know that Mark's gospel was written about at the end of the Great Jewish Revolt. But I asked about an eventual connection with the death of Paul just in the hope that this project was connected to the Jesus Myth hypotheses you presented in other videos. Perhaps the author of Mark's gospel just made up a story about the Messiah that Paul was preaching about, combining different oral traditions (from among others the mystery cults) with the Odyssey as a narrative template.
@greyman000 Oh, I see. I think "Mark" was a Gentile Christian MOST likely living IN Rome and would likely have been a recipient of Pauline Christianity. As such, he would believe in a heavenly Jesus like Paul but when Jerusalem fell in 70-72CE, he would have seen that as God's retribution for the jews rejecting his son and the msg of his son's great salvific act. So, in general, the Gentile Christians were anti-semitic and Mark's work shows this.
@greyman000 But mark seems to be more against jewish leaders than the jew in general BUT still he does lay the blame upon ALL the jews for the destruction because ALL the jews were yelling to crucify jesus. So, not sure if mark was a direct disciple of Paul but it doesn't seem as likely. Mark might have gotten a more proto-orthodox flavor of it and included that in his gospel. his gospel DOES have more OT references than Paul's theology shows.
Name Game and the Animal Riding getaway would be the linchpins. They seem to be unique in use and placement. Though not carbon copies. Jesus does look like a "reboot" .
I'm trying to remember other cases of those elements in stories but I can't think of anything that close.
Sinbad rode a Roc to an adventure. Stories borrow from the Odyssey in general.
John Crichton used aliases Butch (as in Butch Cassidy) and John Clarence. Traveled by living ship. But, those episodes didn't include escapes.
@xdassinx Oh, I'm sure if we searched enough like you say we'd find COPIES from Homer but as Homer's works are considered the first of their kind in the western world, what we find would be copies of Homer. But the obvious place to look for Christian sources besides Greek and Roman culture is the OT. So, I'd say most of CHristianity can be traced to LITERARY sources, not oral. Yeah, Jesus is kind of a reboot. but not a carbon copy of anything.
I had initially considered your constructed parallels between two stories to possibly be the result of an attempt to fit data to a predetermined conclusion; I concede the evident parallels, but enough disparity exists between the two stories for me to consider the possibility that they are coincidental rather than the result of deliberate derivation. However, your noting that the Sea of Galilee as described within the book differs from reality has convinced me of the viability of your argument.
@Dimensiom Well, I totally understand. WHen I first read MacDonald's book (well, began to read) I was like anyone. You are going to have to SHOW me the MONEY. I am naturally skeptical. His book convinced me BEYOND a reasonable doubt and that's not easy to do. It's not that one parallel seals the deal. It's the opposite.. HOW could so many parallels exist between Mark and Homer? THAT is the question that must be answered and one answer does it for me elegantly: mark copied from homer.
these are really excellent videos. I wish a Bible as Literature course had been available to me, back in the Dark Ages, either in High School or college. All the literature courses I took, and I never learned ANY of this. Thanks!
@rriverstone1 Me either. Guess what? I went to a private CHRISTIAN school from 1975 to 1981 and was taught the Bible every day and forced to go to "chapel" and I'm lucky I got out with my sanity intact. It sucked me in for over 10 years b4 I escaped riding on the underside of reason and logic. :)
@TruthSurge I went to pub school, but was indoctrinated into So. Baptist church; spent nearly EVERY DAY there. What amazes me is I went to college in '70s; had pretty radical and sometimes intellectual teachers and was an English major. We discussed ALL KINDS of esoteric, cerebral, lofty junk, but never Bible as literature? With xianity so pervasive in the culture? How the hell were we supposed to deconstruct an alienating, toxic system w/out analyzing xianity? WTF? denial...
I bet Jebus was spewing his guts out all the time while sailing. LOL.
cleticprincess1956 2 weeks ago
If people think that comparing the writings of the Biblical authors to the Classic Greek myths is nothing but meaningless speculation which shows nothing, they do not understand just how unoriginal humans are and just how frequently they copy their predecessors.
shrikechan 2 weeks ago
@shrikechan especially when so many stories are identical, apart from the hero himself. If there weren't so many glaring similarities, if you had to try to see something in common, then I could understand someone concluding the this comparison is nothing but someone's imagination creating connections that aren't really there. But when it's so plain that it seems like the author is throwing it in your face on purpose? No.
shrikechan 2 weeks ago
Loving the series, so far... looking forward to the piece de resistance :D
COEXISTential 2 weeks ago in playlist Excavating The Empty Tomb (beyond a reasonable doubt)
@COEXISTential thanks
TruthSurge 2 weeks ago
Some considerations:
-This approach is pretty much non-falsifiable. Looking for a pattern between literary works will yield patterns if you look long and hard enough.
-You don't just allow for copying plot elements from Odyssey, but you give yourself extra wiggle room by allowing for "improvements" and even "inversion". Which interactions between people is then not covered before you even start comparing? You see similar ad hoc adjustments with people who fit Nostradamus to historic events.
smaakjeks 2 weeks ago in playlist Excavating The Empty Tomb (beyond a reasonable doubt)
@smaakjeks do me a small favor, watch the vids until 9b and THEN tell me Mark didn't copy the Odyssey and Greek myths. Deal? At that time, I'll answer/reply to any criticisms you have. thanks.
TruthSurge 2 weeks ago
@TruthSurge
I've watched them now, and even commented. I thoroughly enjoyed the whole video series so far and I think it's likely that Mark copied from Odyssey and other myths. Notice that I never stated otherwise. But, the method is still pretty ad hoc with lots of wiggle-room. Thus, there is a risk of finding more patterns than there actually are. It weakens the case presented. To be extra critical against positions I agree with is important to me; that's why I wrote what I wrote.
smaakjeks 2 weeks ago
@smaakjeks MacDonald gives 6 criteria for determining a legitimate case of copying.
I'll list them in the next comment as 500 char won't do.
TruthSurge 2 weeks ago
@smaakjeks
1) accessibility to the author of the potential borrowed text
2) analogy with borrowings of the text by other authors (did other authors also borrow and re-write the same stories?)
3) density of the numbers of similarities between the texts
4) order or sequence of the parallels
5) distinctiveness of special features of the stories
and the last in ANOTHER reply.
TruthSurge 2 weeks ago
@smaakjeks 6) interpretability or intelligibility -- the capacity of the original text to make sense of some detail in the new work (e.g. why does Jesus want his Messiahship kept secret?)
All this is covered in MacDonald's book which you would enjoy if you haven't had a chance to read it. There has to be a limit in how much info I include in a vid and how "scholarly" it becomes. I chose to simply let the stuff speak for itself mostly. hope that makes sense.
TruthSurge 2 weeks ago
@TruthSurge
To me, the most convincing aspect is how much like contemporary fiction Mark wrote. He doesn't write a historical document, but a work using dramatic tools of the trade, as you pointed out. I think the comparisons between Mark and the Odyssey stories in this video are those that are the biggest stretch of plausibility. To me they seem quite different. There are probably other works that fit better, as other commentators have pointed out.
smaakjeks 2 weeks ago
@smaakjeks I agree ref the fictional format and disagree ref the Odyssey pt. Many other ancient authors COPIED those older stories and reworked them. I think if you'd read MacDonald's book, you'd likely change your mind.
anyway, thanks for watching! I'm trying to churn out more of these but the faster i go, the more likely it is for me to make a flub that I'll have to annote which I don't like. :)
TruthSurge 2 weeks ago
@TruthSurge
So many books to read, so little time... Thanks for responding to my concerns.
smaakjeks 2 weeks ago
@smaakjeks if you didn't want to read the whole book, you could find reviews of it and sort of glean some of the stuff and what the reviewers say which might just be what you are looking for. search Richard Carrier and MacDonald. he did a review of it. Here's another page about it. vridar (dot) info/xorigins/homermark/mkhmrfiles/index (dot ) htm
TruthSurge 2 weeks ago
@smaakjeks And as for falsifiable... I don't think that comes into play. This is always going to be somewhat of a speculation and the evidence either convinces you or it doesn't. :( just my take.
TruthSurge 2 weeks ago
I recall the trouble I always had about the size of Galilee; It is smaller than Cape Cod Bay, Massachussetts, yet..... Now I get it!! Thank you!!!
727Phoenix 3 weeks ago
@727Phoenix Yeah, I wish I had more time to bone up on the geography of that whole area. It would put a few more puzzle pieces in place, I'm sure. thank ya
TruthSurge 3 weeks ago
Interesting. But any attempt to find literary models incorporated by Gospel authors should take into account Hellenistic romances. There were lots of interesting adventure stories composed long after Homer, though no doubt indebted to him, that might offer narrative elements far more specific than the very loose analogies to Homer. Especially those with cliff hangers where friends seek for a friend imprisoned in a tomb ... only to find that the body is gone!
epweissengruber 3 weeks ago
@epweissengruber I cover the "missing hero" motif in this series as well as some VERY specific Odyssey and Greek mythology connections to Mark. But this series is not about that, per se. It's trying to put a FEW items out showing the unreliability of the NT ref historical support for Jesus' resurrection. As such, I think I've actually covered way more than I really need to ref Homer/Mark. That section ends at part 9b. thanks!
TruthSurge 3 weeks ago
Again, I could say the author of Mark was purposefully paralleling the known narratives of the Odyssey in order to demonstrate to the widest audience (meaning he could then include those who believed Greek mythological narratives; he didn't need to disprove them, just show how this very real Jesus was better) that Jesus is superior in every way, thus demonstrating that fact through narrative parallels.
perichoresis7 1 month ago
Great video, im going to have to save some for this sunday morning, so i can attend my own personal, private "bible study" the way its -ment to be studied.. ps that is true, why would jesus Sail in bad weather?? for a Pilot, that is a Big No, No, you stay on the ground, But im still stuck on this almighty God thing, jesus certainly does'nt need a Man made device to travel, why not a Star Gate?
karlbuttler 1 month ago
@karlbuttler almost EVERYTHING about the Jesus story is clear fiction when you sit back and think about it logically. some people can, some can't and some just need more time and maturity and time away from their clique and clans to grow up and think for themselves.
TruthSurge 1 month ago
the way you go about this subject is what we need,well thought out educated content.coming at believers in a way that puts them on the defense and implies that to believe as they do they must be uneducated isnt the answer.at that point listening stops. ive found the best way of opening minds is by actually studying the bible with them.most believers even your most ardent and literal ones dont really know there bible.keep it up
bryankorth 1 month ago in playlist Excavating The Empty Tomb (beyond a reasonable doubt)
@bryankorth I agree. IF you can present the stuff in a non-aggressive way, more CHristians may watch it and think about it. I do this kind but I also do my rants. It's hard to not rant when you know that so many people are caught up in what I believe is a falsehood. I want to wave a wand and fix them. :)
TruthSurge 1 month ago
13 miles is quite big for a lake... I think quite strong winds are possible, depends on the regions climate. However the odyssey paralel is interesting, I was thinking on a concidence at the begining but it's kind of too many..
dumbnetworks 1 month ago
@dumbnetworks Not really. Winds blow west to east and that means they will only blow across left to right which is about 8 miles at it's widest AND it is sunk below the surrounding hills (not open ocean like Mark's tale would imply). Once you get out onto flat ocean, yes, waves could reach that high and strong enough to capsize a boat of 12 men. No way could wind blow up waves tall enough with only 8 miles to work with and the level BELOW surrounding hills.
TruthSurge 1 month ago
@TruthSurge It's possible if the boat suck. I went sailing on a smaller lake than this one and was suprised by a quite fast storm, I didn't expect big waves but acually they don't have to be big on a low level lake its enough to throw your boat up and hit it hard to the bottom of the lake, so basically you can die quite easily and surpisingly.
dumbnetworks 1 month ago
@dumbnetworks I suppose you COULD capsize if your captain ALSO sucked. HAHAHA but this is a debatable point. I say why would Jesus even be out on the lake DURING a storm? you look up, lightning, clouds, rain? cmon man. it's fiction.
TruthSurge 1 month ago
@TruthSurge the prpoblem is with these kind of books that they are fuckin old, and is very hard to find "the truth". I apreciate your research. Keep on doin it :) subbed
dumbnetworks 1 month ago
@dumbnetworks that's very true. thanks!
TruthSurge 1 month ago
"Hit a homer"... No pun intended i suppose :)
sebbuku 1 month ago
@sebbuku hehehehehhe
TruthSurge 1 month ago
Mommie Cake
2eelShmeal 2 months ago
@2eelShmeal tasty
TruthSurge 2 months ago
Hatchet Wound
2eelShmeal 2 months ago
@2eelShmeal bloody hell!
TruthSurge 2 months ago
@TruthSurge ah frickin sweet!
:waits patiently:
TheMorriganLeFay 3 months ago
This is interesting. I'm definitely going to pick up the book concerning Mark and Homer and research further.
ReasonNegatesFaith 3 months ago
@ReasonNegatesFaith thanks
TruthSurge 3 months ago
do you rhyme on purpose or it just comes out that way? :p
TheMorriganLeFay 3 months ago
@TheMorriganLeFay just happens I guess when I'm under duress. OOPS... dang it, I did it again! :)
TruthSurge 3 months ago
@TruthSurge LOL nice, you're a poet and didn't even know it
TheMorriganLeFay 3 months ago
@TheMorriganLeFay why, are you making fun of me? I'll just keep rhyming, THEN you'll see!!! oh damn. I did it again, didn't i? GRRRRRRRRR. hehe
TruthSurge 3 months ago
@TruthSurge Oh no, I'm not making fun of you! I thought it was rather cool, and I do the same thing sometimes, it makes people laugh :p okay now im gonna sit here and wait patiently for the next vid ^_^
TheMorriganLeFay 3 months ago
@TheMorriganLeFay I was just doing another rhyme! hahaha "fun of ME, then you'll SEE" so daz all. yeah, part 11... it'll happen. I need to just take one more pass at the script and make sure I beez happy with it b4 I voice it.
TruthSurge 3 months ago
@TruthSurge
Where are you getting the "Jesus sails with several ships"?
Foxcanine1 3 months ago
@Foxcanine1
Never mind.
Foxcanine1 3 months ago
@Foxcanine1 yeah, it's Mark 4:36 And when they had sent away the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship. And there were also with him other little ships.
This is directly prior to them sailing to meet the demon-possessed man. :)
TruthSurge 3 months ago
@Foxcanine1 Ya gotta wonder why there would be OTHER ships with Jesus here unless it was just because Mark was copying the Odyssey since Odysseus was sailing with several ships. Just another straw on the camel's back.
TruthSurge 3 months ago
@TruthSurge
Straws? More like bricks if you asked me. This camel isn't just lying on its stommach from the exhaustion. It's down right being crushed by bricks. I have to go find a copy of Homer's odyssey as well as the book you mentioned ( which I can't remember off hand) but if this all pans out it is incredible evidence against Jesus Resurrection.
A personal suggestion on my part would be The Jesus Puzzle. Cruise the site. More material than can count.
Foxcanine1 3 months ago
@Foxcanine1 I've done like 6 hrs of vids on the jesus myth theory so I'm totally aware of Doherty's stuff and G.A. Wells. :) It all fits together too. That's what's so amazing. You know it's on the right track when it doesn't contradict anything else and it answers MORE puzzles than it creates and more puzzles than the other theories answer. thank ya
TruthSurge 3 months ago
@TruthSurge
I am curious though as to why Mark would use The Odyssey. After all, there were other Greek stories that matched the son of god hero comes to save the day and defeat the evil monster type stories circulating in Greece. like Perseus, Hercules, and such. So why choose the story he did. Does this author try to delve into that?
Foxcanine1 3 months ago
@Foxcanine1 I don't think he does and I don't have any answer either except that Homer's two epics were widely know AND popular. ?
TruthSurge 3 months ago
@TruthSurge
I wonder, Did Mark solely write the gospel because of the Temple or were there other reasons? You have repeaked my interest in this subject. Another thought comes to mind. Why do you think would Mark see a need to appeal to Greeks by incorporating stories if he thought the end times were imminent? What made him, and Paul and others, try to covert others. Compassion or possibly previous teachings from Q?
Foxcanine1 3 months ago
@Foxcanine1 I don't know that he was appealing to Greeks that much as in trying to convert them but some of that is in there for sure. It's a big pot of this and that. Mark didn't have ONE motive only. He had many. He wanted to pwn the Jews for rejecting God's message (that he had a son) which he does by having Jesus himself pwn them verbally. He wanted to paint the jews as wrong and Christians as right. He wanted to absolve Rome of any wrongdoing (remember the soldier at jesus death?)
TruthSurge 3 months ago
@Foxcanine1 ref endtimes... that's why I say he wasn't trying so much to appeal as in convert. I think the main thing for mark was to paint Christians as right and jews as horribly wrong. that'd be the main purpose in his gospel. I don't believe Q ever existed, fyi.
TruthSurge 3 months ago
@TruthSurge
I agree that there was probably multiple reasons. My guess would have partly been to make sense of the Temple's destruction as well as to appeal to Greeks and to show Jews are wrong.
Still, the idea that Mark would use and improve Greek works would show that he had Greeks in mind. I'm Curious as to your reasoning for not accepting Q. Or is this something that would take far too much space for comments to handle?
Foxcanine1 3 months ago
@Foxcanine1 Q... I need some Q proponent to explain to me the NECESSITY of the document. I simply don't see how it's necessary. It may be that I haven't seen a good enough explanation yet because tons of people seem to think it's a necessary document. Doherty is one. MacDonald is one. So, I asked MacDonald to send me his Q writing and... nothing. :( so, if you have a working idea of the necessity of it, feel free to tel me! hahaha private msg or comment here.
TruthSurge 3 months ago
@Foxcanine1 yes, yes, there's wiki but nothing I've read has clicked in my head as it being a necessary source. Maybe you have something along those lines that will make some sense. But also, admittedly, I have not devoted a lot of time just studying the Q hypothesis (or theory?). I've really wanted to read MacDonald's thoughts on it but he never mailed me his writing as he said he would dammit!! hahahha
so, that's where I stand on Q right now but hey, I am open to see why it's needed.
TruthSurge 3 months ago
So good brotha! You win at life.
TylerOmega 3 months ago
@TylerOmega thanks! part 9a and 9b should blow yer mind. :)
TruthSurge 3 months ago
"or was Mark trying to hit a Homer?" Good one. . .
I really like this series, man.
jdh501 4 months ago
Again, nicely done TruthSurge...★★★★★
Katalyzt
Katalyzt 4 months ago
Excellent parallel comparisons on both. Well done well done!
zeistermeist 4 months ago
@zeistermeist thank ya. part 7 is hot off the presses!
TruthSurge 4 months ago
Very interesting, it certainly does seem possible that the author of Mark was plagiarising Homer.
AussieNaturalist 4 months ago
@AussieNaturalist It's not really plagiarising. . .Mark switched it up enough that it took almost 2000 years to discover! :)
Kinda like the difference between "Jeannie" and "Bewitched", both about supernatural chicks who live with a man and turn his life into a living hell, but just different enough to avoid copyright squabbles.
jdh501 4 months ago
I'm rubbing my chin as I say: Interesting. Very interesting.
Zentz29 4 months ago
@Zentz29 good! The next vid... oh man, it's the best so far. You'll be rubbing more than your chin. DOH hahahahhah
TruthSurge 4 months ago
I still think the tale of Odisseus is the better story by far!
kirafan68 4 months ago
@kirafan68 of course it is. Greece was way ahead of Palestine and the Middle-East in 800 BCE. The tiny group of nomads wandering deserts in robes and getting conquered every few hundred years had no way of competing with Greece on an intellectual level. Poor blokes. They spent all their time ass up praying to a non-existent god instead of figuring out the world like the Greeks were trying to do.
TruthSurge 4 months ago
Well it's very interesting, but so far it doesn't seem that convincing yet.
Mithcoriel 4 months ago
@Mithcoriel 2 or 3 more vids and then let's talk. :)
TruthSurge 4 months ago
Gerasenes, probably of the ancient city of Gadara a Greek settlement is opposite of Galilee. They were opposite in that they were non-Jews
Travel took a long time then so it was unlikely Gerasenians had heard of Jesus. But as soon as Jesus arrives the demoniac knows Jesus right away calling Jesus the Son of the Most High
So that's another inverted parallel you missed, the Cyclops didn't know who Odysseous was but the demoniac knew who Jesus was
lungay009 4 months ago
@lungay009 Yes, you could make that point. Or it may be that Mark was simply continuing to adhere to his "demons know Jesus' true identity because they were... demons" motif. ALTHOUGH, I recall one human SOMEHOW knowing Jesus as the son of god also. So, it seems Mark has Jesus being recognized by many but the common thread is Jesus telling them to keep silent so that holds true in the demon possessed man scene as well. Thanks for point that out. But to cross the sea of G. could take 2 hrs
TruthSurge 4 months ago
@lungay009 It is about 8 miles across so you could conceivably sail or row across it in a few hours. That's not a long journey and another clue that Mark was writing fiction as he makes it sound like some long journey to a distant land instead of the 8 miles or so it really was. :)
TruthSurge 4 months ago
@TruthSurge It is about 8 miles across so you could conceivably sail or row across it in a few hours. That's not a long journey
How long would the journey have been if they went around the lake on foot in those days?
lungay009 4 months ago
@lungay009 well if you had to walk from one side to the other around, it would be about oh, 12 miles or so. you can walk that in probably several hours if you were hustling or maybe 6 hrs. again, Mark makes it seem as if they journeyed 100 miles or something. Just my take.
TrustingDoubt 4 months ago
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lungay009 4 months ago
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lungay009 4 months ago
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lungay009 4 months ago
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lungay009 4 months ago
OK, I may be fat, but there's no reason to bring up my collective chins right at the beginning of this! Great vid!
astrophonix 4 months ago
@astrophonix thank ya!
TruthSurge 4 months ago
"Top drawer, top... draw-er". - Eric Foreman - watch?v=FuvaHbm5pZU&feature=related. ; )
yeshuahfullofit 4 months ago
@yeshuahfullofit :) thanks
TruthSurge 4 months ago
Episodically speaking ,you are an Atheist God (But don't let it go to your head) :)
cosmicskydaddy1 4 months ago
@cosmicskydaddy1 I shall have no other AGs before me, dammit!!!! Thou shalt grovel at the feet of the one true AG! Grovel and salivate and... bring me ice cream once in a while. yeah. what? three commandments aren't enough???? why you...
TruthSurge 4 months ago
@TruthSurge You forgot, "Rub my bunions,or I shall smite thee!"
cosmicskydaddy1 4 months ago
@cosmicskydaddy1 I haveth not bunions! nor onions. I willeth maketh moreth commandmenths doh ... soon! haha
TruthSurge 4 months ago
Very entertaining, TruthSurge. I can't wait for episode 7.
0gods 4 months ago
@0gods thank ya
TruthSurge 4 months ago
I love this series, big thanks for the effort that goes into this.
MacNutz2 4 months ago
@MacNutz2 thanks. The best parallels are on the way.
TruthSurge 4 months ago
Well done again! This is an excellent series. One thing though, I thought the death of Judas was gone over in Matthew and Acts only?
TheCurmudgen 4 months ago
@TheCurmudgen You are correct. I guess i was letting my mind roam from Mark and shouldn't have. :( But you are right. In Mark's text, there is no mention of Judas dying so all 12 are assumed to live if you just read Mark's tale. I think I will at least annotate that in the vid. thanks!
TruthSurge 4 months ago
@TeesByTruthSurge I have downloaded all the 6 videos in this series and watched them consecutively a couple of times in search of something convincing, as I am always searching for ammunition against religionists. your "most revolutionary idea in New Testament studies in the last 1900 years" better gain some substance to it. otherwise it is nothing more than a target for ridicule from the religious side.
worse than religion is bad arguments against religion.
Meskiagkasher 4 months ago
@TeesByTruthSurge well, you see similarities where others see none. those others being those who are actually looking at the respective narratives.
Meskiagkasher 4 months ago
@TruthSurge btw, even if mark was indeed using stylistic and narrative elements from homer he could still be telling the real story of the man jesus (of course adding the fantastic and supernatural stuff).
Meskiagkasher 4 months ago
@Meskiagkasher sure. using details from a fictional story as the details of his and it's still a valid story of Jesus! what then could we believe about Jesus if it's all mashed up with fiction?
TruthSurge 4 months ago
@TruthSurge you have not yet demonstrated that mark is using details of homer's story. your method is equal to that of biblical "historians" who try to tie the biblical israelites to egyptian history.
Meskiagkasher 4 months ago
@Meskiagkasher Once again, if the story is at least part fiction, why should one believe any of it? How does one separate the fiction from the supposed history? It keeps coming back to ones' choice to believe which in the end is utterly meaningless.
MacNutz2 4 months ago
@MacNutz2 the story is at least part fiction because it contains supernatural stuff, and not because the auther may have used a writing style borrowed from homer. it would be necessary to see whether the greek is in fact similar.
however, if mark actually believed in the miracle stuff he would not have been wrinting a deliberate work of fiction.
Meskiagkasher 4 months ago
@Meskiagkasher It is still horse shit. I for one do believe he consciously used Homer as a template. The mix of fiction and possible (note, possible) fact has the same effect as mentioned previously. There is no way to separate one part of the narrative from the other and therefore NO reason to believe any of it. No matter the motives of the writer(s) and subsequent editors.
Besides, it appears the writer borrowed more than 'style'.
MacNutz2 4 months ago
@MacNutz2 that's what I've been saying but I think some people have a bias that will simply cause them to reject whatever is presented. In my NEXT video, I begin to actually show some stunning parallels that I'd love to hear someone try to dismiss as coincidence. I have only begun to bring it! hahaha man... my final parallel.... it's going to be like that uppercut that put Mike Tyson on the mat. POW!
TrustingDoubt 4 months ago
@MacNutz2 oh, this is truthsurge. was just on another channel uploading a vid for a lady.
TrustingDoubt 4 months ago
@TeesByTruthSurge Yeah man, I see that. I see a lot of comments always nagging you to put out the next video, HURRY, put it out!!! Let me say this: Take as much time as you fucking need, we'll wait 'cause we know the finished product will have your signature: Accuracy.
Oh, I almost forgot... NOM NOM
2eelShmeal 4 months ago
OK. Listen up. I am fucking SICK of giving you compliments. I'm beginning to sound like a groupie, but at risk of JUST THAT I have to say:
I'm very impressed. Combined with your knowledge, technical abilities, humor and MOST OF ALL a genuine person who interacts with people online JUST like he would if face to face, (not abusing anonymity) you are quickly becoming one of my favorite youtubers.
2eelShmeal 4 months ago in playlist Empty Tomb
@pakleglia I know there seems to be a hard-on by ancients for the number 12 tho more than 13. Just do a search for 12 or (twelve) in the Odyssey. It does turn up tons of times. 12 zodiac symbols, 12 tribes of israel, 12 disciples, 12 inches in a foot !
TruthSurge 4 months ago
@TruthSurge
12 is a neat number mathmatically, you can divide it by 2,3,4, and6 and get a whole number. And by 5 and 10 and still just go to one decimal place. Ten on the other hand can only be divided by 2 and 5 to get a whole number and any thing else results in an infinitely repeating decimal.
JamesThWilliams 4 months ago
Thank you for using a fellow Dominican hitting the Home Run. You are a smart man!
jolulipa 4 months ago
@jolulipa I mean... hitting a "Homer". You, devilish you!
jolulipa 4 months ago
The textbook for this series?
"The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark" by Dennis Macdonald.
douglet55 4 months ago
Simply amazing series.
I'm learning a lot.
Xgya2000 4 months ago
Brilliant. Really enjoying this series.
th30r3m 4 months ago
this becomes less and less convincing. the similarities appear more and more construed.
Meskiagkasher 4 months ago
@Meskiagkasher well, I've got 2, maybe 3 vids left so after that, if you aren't convinced, I'm fine with that. :)
TruthSurge 4 months ago
@TruthSurge and you think you can convince a religionist if you can't even convince an atheist ?
what is the purpose of this video series? the completely arbitrary manner in which the two works are compared could be applied to *any* two narratives on the planet. i bet you could also show that mark is derived from moby dick.
Meskiagkasher 4 months ago
@Meskiagkasher "and you think you can convince a religionist if you can't even convince an atheist ?"
Again, I'm not done presenting my evidence. Who stands up during the middle of prosecuting attorney's talking and yells in the courtroom "NOT GUILTY! That's my final answer, your honor!" My assumption is that if you don't listen to all the evidence, you are not interested in whether it is true but in merely keeping your current beliefs intact. continued....
TruthSurge 4 months ago
@TruthSurge you have not presented any *evidence* yet. in your analogy the judge would stand up during the middle of prosecuting attorney's talking and yell in the courtroom "get to a point and finally make a case".
you have presented numerous comparisons of the texts were the stories differ substantially, yet you claim similarity. your summary of parallels is devoid of real *parallels*.
can you demonstrate that mark *copied* phrases from homer or used the *same* analogies or play on words?
Meskiagkasher 4 months ago
@Meskiagkasher "get to a point and finally make a case".
and there's the difference between the lawyer analogy and actual research. There is no time constraint on learning but you seem to have an aversion to it.
TruthSurge 4 months ago
@TruthSurge i only have aversions to boasters who do not provide the substance that they promised. did you not
say you would put your money where your mouth is? you have started off rather weakly and I fear it does not end well.
so far, your argumentation reminds me of The Bible Code by Michael Drosnin.
Meskiagkasher 4 months ago
@Meskiagkasher The purpose is to show that Mark was writing deliberate fiction WHICH undermines the historicity of the resurrection, ya think?
ALSO, if you can find specific parallels to Moby Dick in Mark's gospel, you could write a book and make a LOT of money - especially since Mark would have to have been prophetic. :)
TruthSurge 4 months ago
@TruthSurge
"ALSO, if you can find specific parallels to Moby Dick in Mark's gospel, you could write a book and make a LOT of money - especially since Mark would have to have been prophetic. :)"
Hey... if Mark can plagiarise from My friend Homer, then my friend Herman can steal from Mark.. that bastard got way more credit than all of them together deserved anyway.
Mark, share the cookies bitch! :D
realbojay 4 months ago
@TruthSurge the point i was trying to make is that your method of comparing the narratives is so arbitrary and speculative that you could construe "parallels" between any two works of fiction.
of course the gospel of mark is a work of fiction, deliberate or otherwise. and the assumptions about the author among biblical scholars suggest that he was familiar with greek literature. yet your claim of mark directly copying from homer is not sustained by the arguments you have presented so far.
Meskiagkasher 4 months ago
@Meskiagkasher it will be.
TruthSurge 4 months ago
@AtheistReport ah, but I must correct you. The Homer/Mark link is not my original research. I first heard it from a book by Dennis R. MacDonald so as far as I know he is the first person to link Mark to Homer but not 100% sure. thank ya!!!
TruthSurge 4 months ago
Brilliant series, @TruthSurge! I've heard this idea of Mark's gospel being based on the Odyssey before and thought it compelling, but you've pretty much convinced me it's true.
Metalcultistmike 4 months ago
@Metalcultistmike thanks. just wait till the next 2 vids. it gets better. :)
TruthSurge 4 months ago
@TruthSurge, Thank you! I can't wait for the next two vids, I love this series!
Metalcultistmike 4 months ago
fantastic vid!!! TSurge getting better and better =)
razrX 4 months ago
@razrX thank ya!
TruthSurge 4 months ago
Who's your source? It should have long been in the critical literature.
Great work. Much appreciated, even if not your own synthesis. I had never come across such a fascinating literary parallel, but had also not taken the intellectual pains.
AtheistCitizen 4 months ago
@AtheistCitizen Dennis R. MacDonald's great book, "The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark". it's awesome. He first did this with Acts of Andrew which I have not read though. He's working on two new books and I think an article on the necessity of Q but I am fairly convinced Q never existed and there is no necessity for such a document. It was only necessary to the Christians who could not buy that an evangelist would invent part of their gospel. thanks!
TruthSurge 4 months ago
This documentation is great, just perfect, can't wait for the next episode.
MardasMan 4 months ago in playlist Weitere Videos von TruthSurge
@MardasMan thank ya!
TruthSurge 4 months ago
Got me hooked!! Can't wait to see what comes next!!
AthenaSchroedinger 4 months ago
@AthenaSchroedinger thanks
TruthSurge 4 months ago
Maybe Jesus was a viking.
SAsgarters 4 months ago
@SAsgarters sounds likely. He had long hair, white skin and a northern european facial structure. :)
TruthSurge 4 months ago
great series TS - I have not read the Greek epic but if what you say is true with all these parallels, it totally dumbfounds me that whole cultures throughout history have been changed because of a TOTAL fable.I of course doubted the resurrection b/c of inconsistencies in the gospels but reserved my opinion of Jesus even existing. I am quite intrigued. - btw Mark trying to hit a Homer that cracked me up. I look forward to the next vid with great anticipation.
ModernDeism 4 months ago
@ModernDeism Your feeling of "dumbfoundedness" heheh is shared. When I pause to think (as I often do throughout the day) and consider that one fictional allegory about the heavenly jesus of early christianity became seen as historical just 100 years later and 1800 years of people believing it literally and murdering millions in the name of it (when it's all fiction anyway), I just have no words. it's worse than any horror or sci-fi plot I've ever read.
TruthSurge 4 months ago
Okay, my mind is hereby blown. Even knowing the Cyclops story, I didn't think to look for inversions. That's actually kind of clever of Mark. I may have to start watching for those sorts of inversions more often, now.
I told my dad about this piece, and it got his attention.
TheBronzeDog 4 months ago
@TheBronzeDog thank ya. YES, you see, when the author is copying a work like Homer's Odyssey (which was like a blueprint for aspiring authors), they wanted to emulate but not necessarily copy outright. the point was to become a good author yourself and so they copied themes and aspects and a few oddities almost verbatime BUT they also inverted and edited to try and IMPROVE upon the blueprint (as they saw improvement). If Odysseus needed 12 men to fight, Jesus might go alone. etc. thank ye.
TruthSurge 4 months ago
I like this Homeric epic fiction hypotheses. but am not convinced yet. I hope you got more and even better arguments in the upcoming videos. I'll be waiting eagerly.
Is it significant that the Gospel of Mark by scholars is estimated to have been written shortly after the death of Paul?
greyman000 4 months ago
@greyman000 thanks. yes, I have about 2 or 3 more vids and yes, I'm saving one parallel that's going to blow your mind! hahahaha I can't even wait. I'm drooling. hehehe
Um, I date Mark's gospel to about 72CE (see my dating the NT vid for why) so if you believe Acts (and I don't) that would still correlate to being after Paul's death. but no, I see no significance in that. Mark was written right after Rome sacked the Jews. There is no better explanation as it explains too much.
TruthSurge 4 months ago
@TruthSurge Yes, I know that Mark's gospel was written about at the end of the Great Jewish Revolt. But I asked about an eventual connection with the death of Paul just in the hope that this project was connected to the Jesus Myth hypotheses you presented in other videos. Perhaps the author of Mark's gospel just made up a story about the Messiah that Paul was preaching about, combining different oral traditions (from among others the mystery cults) with the Odyssey as a narrative template.
greyman000 4 months ago
@greyman000 Oh, I see. I think "Mark" was a Gentile Christian MOST likely living IN Rome and would likely have been a recipient of Pauline Christianity. As such, he would believe in a heavenly Jesus like Paul but when Jerusalem fell in 70-72CE, he would have seen that as God's retribution for the jews rejecting his son and the msg of his son's great salvific act. So, in general, the Gentile Christians were anti-semitic and Mark's work shows this.
TruthSurge 4 months ago
@greyman000 But mark seems to be more against jewish leaders than the jew in general BUT still he does lay the blame upon ALL the jews for the destruction because ALL the jews were yelling to crucify jesus. So, not sure if mark was a direct disciple of Paul but it doesn't seem as likely. Mark might have gotten a more proto-orthodox flavor of it and included that in his gospel. his gospel DOES have more OT references than Paul's theology shows.
TruthSurge 4 months ago
@greyman000 so, I'm no expert but I'd love to know exactly how all the writings interconnect and all the lost writings that would explain it! haha
TruthSurge 4 months ago
Name Game and the Animal Riding getaway would be the linchpins. They seem to be unique in use and placement. Though not carbon copies. Jesus does look like a "reboot" .
I'm trying to remember other cases of those elements in stories but I can't think of anything that close.
Sinbad rode a Roc to an adventure. Stories borrow from the Odyssey in general.
John Crichton used aliases Butch (as in Butch Cassidy) and John Clarence. Traveled by living ship. But, those episodes didn't include escapes.
xdassinx 4 months ago
@xdassinx Oh, I'm sure if we searched enough like you say we'd find COPIES from Homer but as Homer's works are considered the first of their kind in the western world, what we find would be copies of Homer. But the obvious place to look for Christian sources besides Greek and Roman culture is the OT. So, I'd say most of CHristianity can be traced to LITERARY sources, not oral. Yeah, Jesus is kind of a reboot. but not a carbon copy of anything.
TruthSurge 4 months ago
Intriguing!! Keep it up
calmreason 4 months ago
@calmreason thank ye!
TruthSurge 4 months ago
this is MY kind of bible study!
great video, ts!
MrWaddefak 4 months ago
@MrWaddefak thanks!
TruthSurge 4 months ago
Your video are dame good, this kind staff I really get into, keep it up.
mahender6969 4 months ago
@mahender6969 thank ya!
TruthSurge 4 months ago
I had initially considered your constructed parallels between two stories to possibly be the result of an attempt to fit data to a predetermined conclusion; I concede the evident parallels, but enough disparity exists between the two stories for me to consider the possibility that they are coincidental rather than the result of deliberate derivation. However, your noting that the Sea of Galilee as described within the book differs from reality has convinced me of the viability of your argument.
Dimensiom 4 months ago
@Dimensiom Well, I totally understand. WHen I first read MacDonald's book (well, began to read) I was like anyone. You are going to have to SHOW me the MONEY. I am naturally skeptical. His book convinced me BEYOND a reasonable doubt and that's not easy to do. It's not that one parallel seals the deal. It's the opposite.. HOW could so many parallels exist between Mark and Homer? THAT is the question that must be answered and one answer does it for me elegantly: mark copied from homer.
TruthSurge 4 months ago
They're all gay sailors, to me.
;^)
nishbrown 4 months ago
@nishbrown Isn't there a theory about that? hahahha I mean, Jesus DID say, "Get thee behind me, Satan!"
TruthSurge 4 months ago
these are really excellent videos. I wish a Bible as Literature course had been available to me, back in the Dark Ages, either in High School or college. All the literature courses I took, and I never learned ANY of this. Thanks!
rriverstone1 4 months ago
@rriverstone1 Me either. Guess what? I went to a private CHRISTIAN school from 1975 to 1981 and was taught the Bible every day and forced to go to "chapel" and I'm lucky I got out with my sanity intact. It sucked me in for over 10 years b4 I escaped riding on the underside of reason and logic. :)
TruthSurge 4 months ago
@TruthSurge I went to pub school, but was indoctrinated into So. Baptist church; spent nearly EVERY DAY there. What amazes me is I went to college in '70s; had pretty radical and sometimes intellectual teachers and was an English major. We discussed ALL KINDS of esoteric, cerebral, lofty junk, but never Bible as literature? With xianity so pervasive in the culture? How the hell were we supposed to deconstruct an alienating, toxic system w/out analyzing xianity? WTF? denial...
rriverstone1 4 months ago