@candiceevans1 Sabbath is from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. The Jewish feasts, trumpets, and so on, are all fulfilled in Christ though, but His 7th day will remain forever. God bless and may Christ be with you always, and look up, watch, He comes with clouds in a very short time! <3
The vast divide between the Jewish requirement of a Messiah and Jesus and Jesus' failure to fulfill it....IS YOUR OPINION AND FROM THOSE THAT SEE IT THAT WAY..Doesnt mean its true..does It ?....The jews should admit that they screwed up a lot and made some really bad decisions...Like making themselves into the whipped culture whos suffering deserves more attention than the rest.of us who suffer as well....Get over it !
The modern state of Israel does not currently have a genetic or demographic platform for the sovereignty of the Hebrew. Twelve tribes will belong to Israel. The mixed Jewish have claimed themselves as Jews although actually they are not real Jews. They have imposed their pseudo-religious, matrilineal succession laws upon Israel as a genetic culture, whereas the proper genetic inheritance of the country is patrilineal, as given in Numbers 36: 5-13 by Moses. Hence, they should allow others there.
Bravo David, as a Christian Orthodox, you make me proud that GOD blessed your heart and gave you access to the light and you see, please don't ever be tempted and fall prey to deception or misleading of your Chrstian Faith, Hang in there, the power of Christ is unstoppable as it will unfold as it is written in the book of revelation.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.-Rom 1:16.
Its interesting that despite the aggressive proselytizing (christianity spends more funds on proselytizing than any religion imaginable) and yet their numbers are still going down. Europe is lost to Christianity as will soon be North America. All we infidels have to do is wait, give it time and slowly christianity will extinguish
It's a logical contradiction. If you believe Jesus is the "messiah", then you are not a Jew, you are a Christian. Except maybe by race but what is that? Jews in modern times no longer conform to singular race since they are now mixed with every race in the world.
I would argue that: Jesus was Jew (racially and by faith) who brought reform to the one-god-faith (Judaism) like many before him (like Solomon). His reform was revolutionary because he extended the possibility of salvation to all races which was considered heresy by the nation that regards it's self as God's favorite. So in essence this debate is between "cosmopolitan" and "nationalist" Jews. From that perspective it doesn't look like such a big contradiction.
Not really. When christians are actually living like Yeshua (which I admit is rare) then they are more Jewish than Reform Jews. Why is that Lubavitchers can believe that Reb Manachem ben Schneerson is going to be resurrected i 3DAYS, and that he is Messiah and still be Jewish, homosexuals are still considered Jewish, atheists are still considered Jewish but if you believe the Tanakh, Talmud, and even Zohar are pointing to Yeshua as Messiah your no longer Jewish?
Torah forbids you to fool yourself and others. Fooling others regarding Yoska, makes you an enticer for which the Torah prescribes death. The chain of the Jewish Mesorah does not permit belief that Yoska was Mashiach. A Jew, who opts to believe such things shakes off the berit between Hashem and Israel and is a meshumad. As an apostate Jew, his shechitah, Sefer Torah, mezuzah, and sacrifices are void. He is still a Jew but almost only in the sense that he can do teshuvah.
I agree with everything you have said as it relates to mainstreams "xianity" and the blond - haired, blue - eyed "Jsus" but that is an anti-semitic misrepresentation and in many cases deliberate lie meant to distort the true Torah observant Rabbi, who taught, lived and brought other unobservant Jews to Torah and Talmud. I don't see how following Yeshua shakes of the berit when He followed Torah perfectly as I attempt to do. Following Yeshua's example is actually what brought me TO the Torah :)
Yoshka did not follow Torah. See Luke 6: 1 - 6 where he and his "talmidim" desecrate Sabbat and then Yoshka misquotes the Tanach to try and exculpate himself and them.
Actually in this passage Rabbi Yeshua is teaching the deeper meaning of Torah (compassion, mercy and truth) as well as using a Talmudic principle to justify thier actions. The pharisees were making their own regulations more important than the basic human need to eat. Is that merciful? yet they routinely broke the Sabbath even to pull their mule out of a ditch. (Matt 12;1-14). Would Hashem want them to starve to follow rabbinic legislation?
... And the Talmudic principle that Yeshua was applying is "asei docheh lo saaseh" when a negative commandment and a positive commandment contradict eachother as in the cases Yeshua stated (David eating the shewbread inspite of the neg commandment not to and the cohenim working on Shabbat) the POSITIVE commandment overrules the negative one. So if a Divine negative commandment is overrulled by a Divine positive commandment how much more is a RABBINIC neg. commandment overruled?
You miss the point. Some Lubavitchers claim that the Rebbe Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is Mashiach, but none claim he is G-d- You claim that Yoshka is not just Mashiach but G_d. That puts you entirely beyond the pale of Judaism. There is nothing is the Mesorah that permits believe in the pagan idea that a man can become G_d.
I beg to differ Rabbi Yeshua HaMashiach said "both the Law and Prophets spoke concerning me, if you believe Moses you would believe in me."
The Tanach says "Unto us a Child is born, a Son is given, the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, and ETERNAL FATHER, Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6
It is obvious that the Nevi'im fortold the awesome miracle of a child being born who would be called Mighty God and Eternal Father.
It makes no sense to cite Yoshka as proof of Yoshka in a debate with someone who rejects him. Your quote from Yeshayahu refers to the son of Ahaz, King Hezekiah. See Sanhedrim daf 94a. The names you capitalise, EL GIBOR and AVI AD, are part of a long name or series of names, Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom. There are many Hebrew names, which incorporate the word EL. e.g. Eli, Nataniel, Putiel, Eliezer.
Yes there are many names the have EL in them but there is a very distinct difference between a passage that has a persons name such as one discussing Eli and a passage that discusses a mighty ruler who will be born to us and calls Him El Gibor and Avi Ad MIghty God and Eternal Father. I think the context is clear that these titles were all applied to one child and taken with other scriptures in Yeshayahu they clearly are messianic references.
NOT what the Jewish tradition teaches. Is the Talmud wrong that the reference is to King Hezekiah? You cannot cherry-pick your Judaism. If you choose to read the text through Christian spectacles, you are a Christian and an apostate Jew. You cannot be a Christian and an observant Jew. The Yoshka you see in the text has little to do with the historic figure, (if he existed). Read Dr. James Tabor on this. Remember that the NT was written more than a lifetime after the events supposedly recorded.
As far as cherry - picking I don't think that's fair since we both know that the Jewish tradition is very diverse and there are many rabbis prior to the Rambam who disagreed with his interpretation of Isaiah 9:6. So the oldest commentators in the Jewish tradition support Isa. 9:6 being a messianic prophecy. The fist "christians" were Jews and Paul was a Pharisee trained at the feet of Gamliel, the leader of the Sanhedrin and greatest Rabbi of his generation.
Also the NT couldn't have been written that long after the life of Yeshua since it was written by many of His disciples who obviously couldn't have written about their experiences after they died.
Here are just a few rabbis from the Jewish Tradition that asert that Isa. 9:6 and 53 are messianic prophecies:
"I will proceed to explain these verses of our own Messiah, who G-d willing, will come speedily in our days. I am surprised that Rashi and Rabbi David Kimchi have not , with the Targums
"I am plesed to interpret it in accordance of our rabbis, of the King Messiah, and will be careful so far as I am able to adhere to the litereal sense..."
Rabbi Moshe Kohen Ibn Crispin of Cordova and Toledo Spain ca. 1350
"Our rabbis of blessed memory with one voice accept and affirm the opion that the prophet (Yeshayahu) is speaking of the King Messiah, and we ourselves also adhere to this same..
...view." Rabbi Moshe Le Sheich, second half of the 16th centruy.
"But he was wounded... meaning thaat since the Messiah bears our iniquitiies which porduce the effect of His being bruised, it folows that whoeoever will not admit that Messiah thus suffers for our iniquities, must endure and suffer for them himself." Rabbi Elijah de Vidas
The jewish tradition also speaks of the ten martyrs whose "death atones for the sins of our people during Yom Kippur". We do need a martyr to die for us.
What is the Rambam's interpretation of Isaiah 9:6? Who are the rabbis you refer to? The prophecy is messianic (Hezekiah was a potential mashiach according to some see Sanhedrim ad loc.) but you cannot be say Yoshka is Mashiach that is outside the mesorah. There are two distinct Messiah concepts. The Jewish and the Xian. Did Rabbi Gamliel agree with Saul his student? I think not. The Talmud forbids a Jew to seek refuge from pursuers in the house of a Jewish Xian.
Your "evidence" is somewhat anecdotal. You make three statements, which are logically unrelated. Are we then to draw any serious conclusion from them? Serious enquiry will reveal that you are mistaken.
Your contention that most Chabadniks consider the Rebbe to be Moshiach is be based on 2 not 3 statements:
a) your step-father is a Chabadnik,
b) you have a card that says so.
Not exactly compelling. There is no such thing as a Torah observant Messianic Community, because Torah observance includes the acceptance of certain axiomatic statements about the nature of Hashem and the relationship between Him, Creation and his People, which they reject.
All of us Yehudim, who know Yeshua are! But "Jews" For Jesus are teaching many anti-Torah/anti-Yeshua things, such as sending Jews to Christian Church's instead of to Messianic Torah observant Communities as well as they endorse holidays that have nothing to do with G-d's holy word, such as Christmas and Easter!
If the second coming is indeed a messianic event, why doesn't the Torah ever say the messiah will a) die, or b) return from the dead for a second coming?
Actually The Tanakh, Talmud and Zohar all fortell the death, burial and ressurection of Yeshua Messiah as well as His second coming.
Isaiah 53:8 says "He was cut off from the land of the living... for the sin's of my people (Israel) He was stricken."
The Talmud tells us Messiah will come first riding on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9 Tanakh) as Messiah ben Yosef the suffering servent, then again as Messiah Ben David.
My quote from Yeshua was not to prove that He is Mashiach but to prove He was a Law Abiding Rabbi not a gentile demigod.
The titles Mighty God and Everlasting Father are used in reference to a child who was born in Israel what did Hezekiah do to deserve these titles? Moses was much greater than Hezekiah and he was never called Mighty God or Eternal Father.
And Isaiah 53 fortells messiah being "cut off" or dying for the sins of "my people" which is Israel. Yeshua died as our kaparah.
Jews make far better Christians than Christians do. Most Christians are crazy. They hold Jesus up like a vodoo doll in pure idolotry. And most don't follow the 10 Commandments. Celebrating Sunday as the Sabbath for example. But try to point that out and see what happens. You can;t reason with them and you find out that they really believe the Sabbath is Jewish and that ALONE is why they don't observe it. So most Christians are Jew haters even though Jesus was from Gallalee?? Crazy...
It's sad to say but you are exactly right. Anti - semitism is deeply rooted in christianity but many chrisitians are beginning to realize that and are trying to change.
tage, and know that they are Jews, I don't care what your last name is! Today, 3 are practicing Jews, and I'm working on the other 2. Make sure your kids get a real Jewish education, Hebrew school, set an example. Believe me, it rewards you and the kids in the end. My beautiful daughters do not drink, do drugs, basically have balanced lives. They love history, law, ethics, and it didn't come out of the blue, but by being taught by me (Mom) and by having a Jewish education as well as a secular 1.
Yoski, if he even existed, was a Jew. And a very naughty boy as well. He is not the messiach. Grow up and face Reality, stop looking for an excuse Brickner and co.
(con't) Semitism in my entire life, yet, especially as a student, this constant, chronic attempt to convert me had me hanging by my last nerve. So I began telling people to just leave me alone! How stupid can you possibly be to think you'll convert someone with a Talmud Torah education? No, go for some low hanging fruit, because Jews that know Judism, will never convert to your illogical way of thinking. Yes, there is intermarriage, but I made sure my nephews (5) of them knew all about our heri-
And may the words of the Prophet be fulfilled in your case and many others:
"O L-rd, my strength and stronghold, my refuge in day of trouble, nations shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say: "Our fathers have inherited nothing but lies, vanity, and worthless things. Shall a man make for himself gods? Such are no gods!"
jfjweb and everyone else MUST surely ask themselves:
1) Could these 'prophecies' refer to anyone? e.g. riding a donkey - quite unusual in the Middle East hey? Have the following happened? 2)World peace? Isaiah2:4, 3) death ceased? Isaiah25:8 4) resurrection of dead? Isaiah26:9, Temple rebuilt (Ezek40), all Jews back in Israel (Ez 37:21), etc.... Oh. I forgot. The 2nd coming... hmmm. Where's that concept in the Scripture you love so much?
Surely you have forgotten that the messiah was prophesied to come before the destruction of the 2nd Temple. But I guess that one doesn't count since it doesn't fit in with rejecting Jesus.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
There is indisputably an etnacta (Hebrew version of a Semi-Colon) separating 7 weeks and 62 weeks changing the meaning to:
25 Know, therefore, and discern that seven weeks [of years] will elapse between the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalayim until an anointed prince comes. It will remain built for sixty-two weeks [of years], with open spaces and moats; but these will be troubled times.
This completely changes the time of birth. Interestingly even the 1611 KJV translates the semicolon correctly. It was changed in the 19th century to help aid the Jesus as Messiah myth.
You see jfjweb, deleting my comments as you did last week just hinders all your readership from finding Truth honestly. It doesn't help anyone.
It's important to note, that the world has RULES. Set things that do not change. If one takes off their hat, it will always fall to the floor. 2+2 always equals 4. Baring that in mind, when the Torah says certain unequivocal things necessary for messiach, that is what has to be. No conveniently forgetting these things out of vested interests.
So, I suppose you don't believe in a God who can perform miracles. How many times did the Lord turn our understanding of Him on it's head? What makes you think you know everything about how God operates? My problem with the outright rejection of Jesus is that you do not consider the whole of the evidence and circumstance. If someone does this and is willing to ask God if it's true, there is nothing else I can say to them, then it is between that person and God.
I agree with what you said, that the Torah has not been usurped by the message of Jesus. Jesus came to fulfill the promises of God and bring eternal forgiveness and salvation to all the world.
In the passages you mention always read the context... read the verse before and the verse after... for example:
"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached..." (Luke 16:16).
To give you one last attempt to try and convince your viewers that the Eternal Word of G-d as Written in the Torah and transmitted Orally to this day has (G-d-Forbid) been usurped, contrary to EXPLICIT TORAH to the contrary (Gen17:9-10; Ex12:17; Ex31:16; Ex12:14, Ex28:43, Lev3:17, 7:36, 10:9, 16:29,31,34; 23:14,21,31,41; 24:3,Num15:15, 18:23; Deut 4:2, 13:1) and even in your own writings (Matt5:19, 19:16-17; 23:1-3; Luke4:16, 16:17,22:8-AND-23:56, James2:10, Matt9:20-AND-Num15:37) PLEASE TRY NOW
'In the over 3,000 years since Moses received the original Scripture from Mt. Sinai and wrote the 13 copies (twelve of which were distributed among the Tribes), spelling variants have emerged on a total of nine words -- with absolutely no effect on their meaning. The Christian Bible,in comparison, has over 200,000 variants and in 400 instances, the variants change the meaning of the text; 50 of these are of great significance.' - must surely be the new word of G-d hey!!?
Are you talking about translations that interpreted the meaning of original manuscripts? How many different interpretations are there in the Talmud of many significant passages of the Torah and Tenach? The original manuscripts of the New Testament have been very well preserved.
your book is less than 2000 years old. As i quoted before, nine mistakes in the Torahs found way way after G-d Spoke to the entire Jewish People. i think you'll find by that quote how many MiSTAKES your book has, how many of these are deemed 'significant', and how many of these actually affect the reading of the text.
Re the words of the Sages (of Righteous Memory) contained within the Talmud, the whole thing is argument. But all are True. But this authority is contained within Scripture
How many people will argue that the Torah is flawed and that the writings in it are just myth? There are miracles and inconsistencies in it that fly in the face of science and reason and yet they are all true right? How can you believe the signs and miracles that Moses performed, and yet say that what Jesus did, which is much more recent is riddled with mistakes?
Listen, you seem to be waking up a tiny tiny bit. This is really the crux of the matter, which you're starting to understand.
As the Rambam quite clearly states, Israel did not believe in Moses because of burning bushes, miracles or other wonders - and often signs and wonders ARE put in the hands of charlatans to test Israel's faith (The Torah states that all Command's remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)...
Maimonides states: "...What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, "Face to face, God spoke with you..." The Torah also states: "God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us -- who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3)
Judaism is the personal eyewitness experience of 3million people standing at Mt Sinai 3,300 years ago!
Exactly! I'm proud to know that I am decendent of some of the people THAT WERE STANDING @ THE FOOT OF MT. SINAI. What most Christains do not know is that G-d revealed the LAW to US, and our decendents. To be a Jew, an eyewitness to the Revelation @ Sinai, is the most wonderous thing! That all LIVING JEWS ON THE ENTIRE PLANET were there, and we continue our covenent with Avinu Malkanu, through our children and grandchildren, just as they will do into the future. I have never experienced anti-
"According to the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do; thou shalt not turn aside from the sentence which they shall declare unto thee, to the right hand, nor to the left". ['they' later being the Wise of Israel]. That most certainly does not include a (lone) man [read the verse] rejected by the Wise of Israel as a false prophet, liable for death!
4)Over 1000years before alleged birth of your 'god', the following was written in the Tenach:
Numbers 23:19: God is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor the son of man, that He should repent. Would He say and not do, or speak and not confirm?
Psalms 146:3: Do not rely on princes nor in the son of man, for he holds no salvation.
(as if these would be necessary to rebut any suggestion in the subsequent (and present times!) that the word of G-d had been edited, G-d-Forbid.)
Now, it looks like you are just looking for reasons not to believe. If you were sincere, you would not use such passages of scripture out of context to make a point!
I don't think the verses are quoted out of context at all, I think they are in their plain meaning quite telling. I am not one of your missionaries quoting 'messianic verses' to support my apriori conclusion that a certain Jewish boy is the Messiah. Look around you pal.
According to the Torah, the world is not created evil. Everything is neutral, but within ourselves we have an 'other side' the side of negativity. This side can irrationalise things that suit its desires.
Everyone needs to make sure they are being objective, not 'believing' because it suits to believe.
Where do we go from here? After the sacrifices comments (once we've finished that) I'm not going to waste anymore time on here with brainwashed nutters. I spoke to some of your lot and the lot of you are crackers... 'Praise the Lor*...Praise the Lor*'... - 'don't you want salvation?' [er, yeh, according to how the Torah tells me that will come...]
2) In Judaic texts, the term messiah was used for all kings, high priests, certain warriors, but never saviour figures. In the Tanach, 'moshiach' is used 38 times for: two patriarchs, six high priests, once for Cyrus, 29 Israelite kings such as Saul and David. Even in Daniel (an End of Days prophet), it is only mentioned in relation to a murdered High Priest!
3) Show me anywhere in Tenach that mentions a 2nd coming.
I like these arguments because they are based on scripture. Now as to your question, why were there so many messianic figures? If there was supposed to be only one messiah you mention 38 references. Sounds like 38 comings, let alone a 2nd coming?!? Is that really an argument against receiving forgiveness of sin from God? Where in the scriptures does it say that there should be no more sacrifice for atonement of sin, and yet where is the blood sacrifice now?
I'm so pleased you like them, I do try. You know you should read the verses in Hebrew along with the commentaries that accompany them, you will find out a lot more interesting thing within the Torah.
To this forgiveness from G-d nonsense. Let me ask you a question. Based on your love of 'Scripture', and presumed knowledge of, would you remind me how deliberate sins were forgiven in the times of the Temple. Then we may be able to proceed...
Let's go back a little further... even before the temple... Gen 2:17b "...from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." God established that the penalty for sin is death.
Now let's fast forward to Moses... Lev 17:11'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'
You may say that sacrifices were only for unintentional sins and that prayer was enough, but that's not the way the prophets saw it! Look up 2 Chronicles 7:19 and see that God rejected the Temple in judgment against the people, leaving them with no means of atonement. That's why Daniel, in chapter 9, is looking toward Jerusalem and crying.
So when did this understanding change to say we don't need blood sacrifice? The answer is after the destruction of the second temple.
Nowhere does God tell us, that the penalty of sin has changed, so why would the way we receive atonement change? What we have seen from the death of Jesus is the provision of God of an offering for us by one who is without sin, laying down His life for us as a one for all sacrifice in the line of the sacrificial system that God had established for us through animal sacrifice. The miracle is not the death, but His resurrection 3 days later and He has promised the same to all who believe in Him.
"So when did this understanding change to say we don't need blood sacrifice?"
Hosea 3:4 For the children of Israel shall sit solitary many days without king, and without prince, and without sacrifice, and without pillar, and without ephod or teraphim;
As for your claims on atonement, your teachings are neither Jewish nor biblical. See Lev 5:11; Is 1:11; Micah 6:6-8; Hosea 14:2; Ps 40:6;
As for a 2nd coming. I think you are more hung up on it than Christians are! After all it is the Jews themselves who had the understanding of two prototypical views of the Messiah. For those who are truly interested look up Messiah Ben David and Messiah Ben Joseph for more...
"God requires a response from us. For those who respond, Jesus will come as savior and victorious king. But to those who scoff and deny, Messiah's second coming will not bring peace, but judgment."
From an article by Larry Brandt in the Jews for Jesus Ministry's publication, Issues, published on March 1st, 1988.
I'm wondering if the fellow who's managing Jews for Jesus's YT account is familiar with his employers' views on the issue of eschatology, lol.
I was referring to your comment on Larry Brandt's article. If you want to see what Jews for Jesus thinks about atonement and blood sacrifice you can see our article on our website: "Atonement: Questions and answers" by Karol Joseph
Yes, I was just simply stating that Mr. Brandt's article displayed quite some fascination with the Second Coming of Christ. It seems to be a major preoccupation of most Christian fundamentalists.
You know the Messiah has three roles. Prophet, Priest and King. The first two roles have been fulfilled, but Jesus said himself that He was coming back to fulfill the last role of King. This is Good News! We should all look forward to it! If He wasn't coming back, then what's the point?
The bible teaches that prayer works without blood (I Kings 8:46-50), that repentance works without blood (II Samuel 12:13), and that charity works without blood (Proverbs 10:2). Leviticus 17:10-11 prohibits consumption of blood and gives a reason, but does not limit atonement to blood services.
Tanak also teaches both national and individual atonement comes only by a blood sacrifice. repentence, charity and prayer avail nothing without a sacrifice.
for the record, some info about your god and religion:
1) archetypal ancient pagan religions beliefs: that the archetypal saviour figure was always born of virgin birth very near 25th dec, in a private location like a barn, leading a life of toil for mankind, rising from dead after being persecuted, and this event being commemorated by meals.
Ring any bells?
2) 25th Dec was originally celebration of the 'sun god'. (One of the tricks of early xns to increase pagan converts)
Please only bring intelligent and valid evidence. You harp about evidence. Where is your evidence for this statement? Do the research instead of just believing false evidence to prove your point.
I am always amazed when people say Jews don't evangelize. But scripture gives us plenty of accounts of Jewish prophets who ere commanded by God to spread his word to their non-Jewish neighbors. Jonah was one such prophet. His mission was a mission of evangelization because it was his message that initially saved the city of Nineveh and brought them to repentance.
I was wondering if someone can come up with the historical connection from the apostles (which I consider the original Jews for Jesus) to the modern Messianic Jews. I believe these are the 144,000 Jews in the NT that will be saved by Jesus.
Messianic Judaism is not Christianity in disguise, it is a legitimate branch of Judaism. The Torah has many prophecies that describes the real and true Jewish Messiah and they point to Yeshua (JESUS).
disgusting. Jews don't evangelise because they know they're right. They do try to save their own from these sinister cults who try to steal Jewish souls from their rightful place in Torah. These sinister cults want love and harmony but at the same time this is at the expense of Truth, regardless of if that involves keeping G-d's laws.
David Brickner personally uses superiority tactics in his communications with Jews he seeks to convert. DON'T BE SUCKED IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you know you are right and know the truth wouldn't you share it with other people who are in the dark? I don't see these people as sinister. Was Jesus (not only a Jew for Jesus but Jesus the Jew himself) sinister? Would a sinister person die for the sins of people? I don't think so.
Jesus did die for all the sins of humanity. Only god can pay for our sins. Which he did! Jesus proved it with both his words and actions that he is the messiah of the world. It is written in the bible of the new testment. If we accept Jesus as our savior and only god ,and if we behave better then he would pardon us and save us from the punishment we all deserve hell.
Isaiah 53 4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
This passage is about Israel who was crushed because of evil from their host nations, led like sheep to the slaughter when Christians persecuted them and many of whom went astray as Ezekiel predicted. If Jesus was G-d (John1:1) he can't be stricken by G-d or get punished if He is the ultimate judge and ruler. He was no slaughtered sheep as he voluntarily went instead of using his powers to rid the dangers from him. He didn't really bear our sorrows as Deut 24:16 teaches of individual liability.
Have you read the rest of that passage and analyzed it carefully josh? Was it Israel who bore the iniquities "of us all"? And is it the soul of Israel , that we should provide as an offering for sin? Was it Israel that was buried with the wicked and the rich? Was it Israel that had done no violence and spoke no deceit? Did Israel bear the griefs and sorrows of others?
And finally is it Israel that God is speaking about when he says "by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many, for he shall bear their iniquities"? Because the scripture says elsewhere that "all have sinned and there is none righteous". Only Jesus was sinless and only he willingly offered his life as a sin sacrifice. This prophecy is on the coming servant who will suffer, atone and die for his people and justify them. This prophecy is on none other than Jesus Christ.
Really? He's a misguided liar? So the 500 plus people who witnessed Jesus die on the cross and rose from the dead were also lying? I seriously doubt that. From the deaths of the Jewish/Christian martyrs, I don't think they'd die to propagate a lie.
what evidence is there that '500 plus' people saw this event?
cf - the Jewish National Revelation - where G-d spoke to the entire people 'Israel' - the Torah in Exodus 12:37 tells us that there were '600,000 adult males on foot'. Add the same amount of women, and people younger than 'adult' i.e. less than 20, and you have approx 3MILLION people witnessing the Infinite Event. What is your claim - 500 people? (which needs evidence in itself.) If G-d wanted His people to abandon...
Then Paul goes said: "and that he(Jesus) appeared to Cephas; then to the twelve; then he(Jesus) appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain until now, but some are fallen asleep;" 1 Cor. 15:5-6.
Acts 9:3-7: "And he...heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."
Ok let's talk evidence. Legally, relevant evidence is evidence that makes an assertion of fact more probable or less probable. A testimony is evidence, e.g testimonies of witnesses to Jesus death and resurrection. It's called testimonial evidence. Once it is written its called documentary evidence, e.g. the scriptures. It is admissible in court if it is relevant. Is that the evidence you are referring to?
Oh don't bother arguing it's hearsay. The "evidence" e.g. the Bible, the dead sea scrolls are over 20 years old. As such it is an exception to the hearsay rule. So, legally, it is considered competent evidence.
To recapitulate: There were many witnesses to the Resurrection: (1) Paul lists many of these witness in 1 Co 15 (Jesus was seen by Cephas (Simon Peter) Lk 24:34; (2) Jesus was seen by the twelve (apostles) Lk 24:36-43; Ac 1:2-3; (3) He was seen by five hundred people at one time (in Galilee) - cf. Mt 28:10,16-17; (4) He was seen by James, the Lord's brother
(5) He was seen by Paul, on the road to Damascus - Ac 22:6-10;
6) To Mary Magdalene - Mk 16:9; Jn 20:14; (7) To ther women returning from the tomb - Mt 28:9,10; (8) To two disciples on the road to Emmaus - Lk 24:13-33; (9) To the apostles, Thomas absent - Jn 20:19-24; (10) To the apostles, Thomas present - Jn 20:26-29; (11)
To seven disciples by the Lake of Tiberias (Sea of Galilee)Jn 21:1-23; (12) To the apostles at the ascension - Ac 1:3-12. Therefore, over a period of forty days, over 500 people saw Jesus after His death!
But don't worry if you missed Yeshua at that time. You will definitely see him again with your very eyes when he comes again: "BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen." Revelation 1:7.
Torah (Heaven Forbid - the Torah forbids such a disloyalty many many many times, and according to Jewish Law A JEW WHO PURPORTS TO CONVERT TO J4J OR ANYTHING ELSE, OR ACCEPT JOSKI is a RENUNCIATION of Judaism.) it makes sense that He would most certainly have given the 'stiff-necked' Jews a way of knowing the 'replacement truth' and so they would not hav been subjected to massacre after massacre by christians purpoting to be fulfilling the Will of G-d - (Inquisition for example).
To confirm that the New Testament is the continuation of the Old Testament (as oppose to the Book of Mormon being a continuation of the Bible), watch youtube's "Fulfilled Bible prophecies." This will prove every prophecy in the old testament concerning Yeshua came true in the old testament.
Your comment sounds like rhetoric masquerading as a sincere statement. We aren't masquerading as anything, we are Jews who have found the Jewish Messiah: Jesus.
I'm not a Messianic Jew but a Christian. I was wondering, doesn't the Freedom of Religion Clause under the First Amendment protect their fundamental right to believe what they want to believe in? Is persecting a person by reason of their faith immoral, illegal and unbiblical? Didn't the Nazis persecute the Jews by reason of their faith? Thus, if you persecute the Messianic Jews because of what they believe what does that make you? Aren't we commanded to love our enemies?
JFJ are God-fearing descendents of Abraham , Isac and Jacob, who come to realize that Yeshua was indeed the long awaited Messiah, who came first as a messiah-priest (who gave an attoning sacrifice on behalf of all of us - Isaiah 53), and will come again as messiah-king, to rule an eternal kingdom (Isaiah 9).
go talk to one of them, and you will change your mind about calling them bad names.
@candiceevans1 Sabbath is from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. The Jewish feasts, trumpets, and so on, are all fulfilled in Christ though, but His 7th day will remain forever. God bless and may Christ be with you always, and look up, watch, He comes with clouds in a very short time! <3
Mekelsior 1 month ago in playlist David Brickner
Shalom praise & glory to HOLY ETERNAL GOD YHWH what is origin of this STAR(David) that is on ISRAEL NATIONAL FLAG
mRwhite298 1 month ago
don't ever give up David -- don't ever give up :) God has truly blessed you
Yizlanu 1 year ago
Christian Jews keep doing God's work. I love it I'am a Christian and consider myself a Jew by faith. Jesus is the way to the father.
JohnnyRoastbeef21 1 year ago
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Happy Hanukkah Candles, "Got a Light???
John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world:
he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness,
but shall have the light of life.
hemet92544 1 year ago
The vast divide between the Jewish requirement of a Messiah and Jesus and Jesus' failure to fulfill it....IS YOUR OPINION AND FROM THOSE THAT SEE IT THAT WAY..Doesnt mean its true..does It ?....The jews should admit that they screwed up a lot and made some really bad decisions...Like making themselves into the whipped culture whos suffering deserves more attention than the rest.of us who suffer as well....Get over it !
stegyi 1 year ago
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The modern state of Israel does not currently have a genetic or demographic platform for the sovereignty of the Hebrew. Twelve tribes will belong to Israel. The mixed Jewish have claimed themselves as Jews although actually they are not real Jews. They have imposed their pseudo-religious, matrilineal succession laws upon Israel as a genetic culture, whereas the proper genetic inheritance of the country is patrilineal, as given in Numbers 36: 5-13 by Moses. Hence, they should allow others there.
hesedken 1 year ago
Bravo David, as a Christian Orthodox, you make me proud that GOD blessed your heart and gave you access to the light and you see, please don't ever be tempted and fall prey to deception or misleading of your Chrstian Faith, Hang in there, the power of Christ is unstoppable as it will unfold as it is written in the book of revelation.
MTLBOBIRAS 1 year ago
The Jews For Jesus has yet to reconcile the vast divide between the Jewish requirement of a Messiah and Jesus' failure to fulfill it.
laceup1967 1 year ago
i wanna debate with a jew...a jew needs to write me.
champ23100 1 year ago
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.-Rom 1:16.
sldeyo 2 years ago 6
Praise Jesus!!
sldeyo 2 years ago 2
the problem is with espn and kevin howard and too tall jones and storm...they tug sirs....the dominant cultures burns em up...
johnsmdm 2 years ago
Very funny! If this didn't exist you couldn't make it up! Hilarious satire!
EdnaSweetlove 2 years ago
Its interesting that despite the aggressive proselytizing (christianity spends more funds on proselytizing than any religion imaginable) and yet their numbers are still going down. Europe is lost to Christianity as will soon be North America. All we infidels have to do is wait, give it time and slowly christianity will extinguish
koroigetsuga 2 years ago
It's a logical contradiction. If you believe Jesus is the "messiah", then you are not a Jew, you are a Christian. Except maybe by race but what is that? Jews in modern times no longer conform to singular race since they are now mixed with every race in the world.
What's next Muslims for Jesus?
sweetsweatyfeet 2 years ago
Good analysis all the way...
I would argue that: Jesus was Jew (racially and by faith) who brought reform to the one-god-faith (Judaism) like many before him (like Solomon). His reform was revolutionary because he extended the possibility of salvation to all races which was considered heresy by the nation that regards it's self as God's favorite. So in essence this debate is between "cosmopolitan" and "nationalist" Jews. From that perspective it doesn't look like such a big contradiction.
archay1 2 years ago
Not really. When christians are actually living like Yeshua (which I admit is rare) then they are more Jewish than Reform Jews. Why is that Lubavitchers can believe that Reb Manachem ben Schneerson is going to be resurrected i 3DAYS, and that he is Messiah and still be Jewish, homosexuals are still considered Jewish, atheists are still considered Jewish but if you believe the Tanakh, Talmud, and even Zohar are pointing to Yeshua as Messiah your no longer Jewish?
I am a Torah Jew.
baalteshuva 2 years ago
Torah forbids you to fool yourself and others. Fooling others regarding Yoska, makes you an enticer for which the Torah prescribes death. The chain of the Jewish Mesorah does not permit belief that Yoska was Mashiach. A Jew, who opts to believe such things shakes off the berit between Hashem and Israel and is a meshumad. As an apostate Jew, his shechitah, Sefer Torah, mezuzah, and sacrifices are void. He is still a Jew but almost only in the sense that he can do teshuvah.
hillel1950 2 years ago
I agree with everything you have said as it relates to mainstreams "xianity" and the blond - haired, blue - eyed "Jsus" but that is an anti-semitic misrepresentation and in many cases deliberate lie meant to distort the true Torah observant Rabbi, who taught, lived and brought other unobservant Jews to Torah and Talmud. I don't see how following Yeshua shakes of the berit when He followed Torah perfectly as I attempt to do. Following Yeshua's example is actually what brought me TO the Torah :)
baalteshuva 2 years ago
Yoshka did not follow Torah. See Luke 6: 1 - 6 where he and his "talmidim" desecrate Sabbat and then Yoshka misquotes the Tanach to try and exculpate himself and them.
hillel1950 2 years ago
Actually in this passage Rabbi Yeshua is teaching the deeper meaning of Torah (compassion, mercy and truth) as well as using a Talmudic principle to justify thier actions. The pharisees were making their own regulations more important than the basic human need to eat. Is that merciful? yet they routinely broke the Sabbath even to pull their mule out of a ditch. (Matt 12;1-14). Would Hashem want them to starve to follow rabbinic legislation?
baalteshuva 2 years ago
... And the Talmudic principle that Yeshua was applying is "asei docheh lo saaseh" when a negative commandment and a positive commandment contradict eachother as in the cases Yeshua stated (David eating the shewbread inspite of the neg commandment not to and the cohenim working on Shabbat) the POSITIVE commandment overrules the negative one. So if a Divine negative commandment is overrulled by a Divine positive commandment how much more is a RABBINIC neg. commandment overruled?
baalteshuva 2 years ago
You miss the point. Some Lubavitchers claim that the Rebbe Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is Mashiach, but none claim he is G-d- You claim that Yoshka is not just Mashiach but G_d. That puts you entirely beyond the pale of Judaism. There is nothing is the Mesorah that permits believe in the pagan idea that a man can become G_d.
hillel1950 2 years ago
I beg to differ Rabbi Yeshua HaMashiach said "both the Law and Prophets spoke concerning me, if you believe Moses you would believe in me."
The Tanach says "Unto us a Child is born, a Son is given, the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, and ETERNAL FATHER, Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6
It is obvious that the Nevi'im fortold the awesome miracle of a child being born who would be called Mighty God and Eternal Father.
baalteshuva 2 years ago
It makes no sense to cite Yoshka as proof of Yoshka in a debate with someone who rejects him. Your quote from Yeshayahu refers to the son of Ahaz, King Hezekiah. See Sanhedrim daf 94a. The names you capitalise, EL GIBOR and AVI AD, are part of a long name or series of names, Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom. There are many Hebrew names, which incorporate the word EL. e.g. Eli, Nataniel, Putiel, Eliezer.
hillel1950 2 years ago
Yes there are many names the have EL in them but there is a very distinct difference between a passage that has a persons name such as one discussing Eli and a passage that discusses a mighty ruler who will be born to us and calls Him El Gibor and Avi Ad MIghty God and Eternal Father. I think the context is clear that these titles were all applied to one child and taken with other scriptures in Yeshayahu they clearly are messianic references.
baalteshuva 2 years ago
NOT what the Jewish tradition teaches. Is the Talmud wrong that the reference is to King Hezekiah? You cannot cherry-pick your Judaism. If you choose to read the text through Christian spectacles, you are a Christian and an apostate Jew. You cannot be a Christian and an observant Jew. The Yoshka you see in the text has little to do with the historic figure, (if he existed). Read Dr. James Tabor on this. Remember that the NT was written more than a lifetime after the events supposedly recorded.
hillel1950 2 years ago
As far as cherry - picking I don't think that's fair since we both know that the Jewish tradition is very diverse and there are many rabbis prior to the Rambam who disagreed with his interpretation of Isaiah 9:6. So the oldest commentators in the Jewish tradition support Isa. 9:6 being a messianic prophecy. The fist "christians" were Jews and Paul was a Pharisee trained at the feet of Gamliel, the leader of the Sanhedrin and greatest Rabbi of his generation.
baalteshuva 2 years ago
Also the NT couldn't have been written that long after the life of Yeshua since it was written by many of His disciples who obviously couldn't have written about their experiences after they died.
Here are just a few rabbis from the Jewish Tradition that asert that Isa. 9:6 and 53 are messianic prophecies:
"I will proceed to explain these verses of our own Messiah, who G-d willing, will come speedily in our days. I am surprised that Rashi and Rabbi David Kimchi have not , with the Targums
baalteshuva 2 years ago
... applied it to the Messiah as likewise."
Rabbi Naphtali ben Asher Altshuler, ca. 1650 c.e.
"I am plesed to interpret it in accordance of our rabbis, of the King Messiah, and will be careful so far as I am able to adhere to the litereal sense..."
Rabbi Moshe Kohen Ibn Crispin of Cordova and Toledo Spain ca. 1350
"Our rabbis of blessed memory with one voice accept and affirm the opion that the prophet (Yeshayahu) is speaking of the King Messiah, and we ourselves also adhere to this same..
baalteshuva 2 years ago
...view." Rabbi Moshe Le Sheich, second half of the 16th centruy.
"But he was wounded... meaning thaat since the Messiah bears our iniquitiies which porduce the effect of His being bruised, it folows that whoeoever will not admit that Messiah thus suffers for our iniquities, must endure and suffer for them himself." Rabbi Elijah de Vidas
The jewish tradition also speaks of the ten martyrs whose "death atones for the sins of our people during Yom Kippur". We do need a martyr to die for us.
baalteshuva 2 years ago
What is the Rambam's interpretation of Isaiah 9:6? Who are the rabbis you refer to? The prophecy is messianic (Hezekiah was a potential mashiach according to some see Sanhedrim ad loc.) but you cannot be say Yoshka is Mashiach that is outside the mesorah. There are two distinct Messiah concepts. The Jewish and the Xian. Did Rabbi Gamliel agree with Saul his student? I think not. The Talmud forbids a Jew to seek refuge from pursuers in the house of a Jewish Xian.
hillel1950 2 years ago
My Step-Father is a Chabadnik, most Chabadniks consider him Melemkh Ha Mashiach, infact I have a Card that says it on it!
MenechemShaul 2 years ago
Your "evidence" is somewhat anecdotal. You make three statements, which are logically unrelated. Are we then to draw any serious conclusion from them? Serious enquiry will reveal that you are mistaken.
hillel1950 2 years ago
What evidence are you refering to?
MenechemShaul 2 years ago
Your contention that most Chabadniks consider the Rebbe to be Moshiach is be based on 2 not 3 statements:
a) your step-father is a Chabadnik,
b) you have a card that says so.
Not exactly compelling. There is no such thing as a Torah observant Messianic Community, because Torah observance includes the acceptance of certain axiomatic statements about the nature of Hashem and the relationship between Him, Creation and his People, which they reject.
hillel1950 2 years ago
All of us Yehudim, who know Yeshua are! But "Jews" For Jesus are teaching many anti-Torah/anti-Yeshua things, such as sending Jews to Christian Church's instead of to Messianic Torah observant Communities as well as they endorse holidays that have nothing to do with G-d's holy word, such as Christmas and Easter!
MenechemShaul 2 years ago
If the second coming is indeed a messianic event, why doesn't the Torah ever say the messiah will a) die, or b) return from the dead for a second coming?
DukeMordy 2 years ago
Because that is revealed in the New Testament. The book of our Lord Jesus Christ.
dannyVulture 2 years ago
Actually The Tanakh, Talmud and Zohar all fortell the death, burial and ressurection of Yeshua Messiah as well as His second coming.
Isaiah 53:8 says "He was cut off from the land of the living... for the sin's of my people (Israel) He was stricken."
The Talmud tells us Messiah will come first riding on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9 Tanakh) as Messiah ben Yosef the suffering servent, then again as Messiah Ben David.
שׁלום
baalteshuva 2 years ago
My quote from Yeshua was not to prove that He is Mashiach but to prove He was a Law Abiding Rabbi not a gentile demigod.
The titles Mighty God and Everlasting Father are used in reference to a child who was born in Israel what did Hezekiah do to deserve these titles? Moses was much greater than Hezekiah and he was never called Mighty God or Eternal Father.
And Isaiah 53 fortells messiah being "cut off" or dying for the sins of "my people" which is Israel. Yeshua died as our kaparah.
baalteshuva 2 years ago
Jews make far better Christians than Christians do. Most Christians are crazy. They hold Jesus up like a vodoo doll in pure idolotry. And most don't follow the 10 Commandments. Celebrating Sunday as the Sabbath for example. But try to point that out and see what happens. You can;t reason with them and you find out that they really believe the Sabbath is Jewish and that ALONE is why they don't observe it. So most Christians are Jew haters even though Jesus was from Gallalee?? Crazy...
clarkewi 2 years ago
It's sad to say but you are exactly right. Anti - semitism is deeply rooted in christianity but many chrisitians are beginning to realize that and are trying to change.
baalteshuva 2 years ago
tage, and know that they are Jews, I don't care what your last name is! Today, 3 are practicing Jews, and I'm working on the other 2. Make sure your kids get a real Jewish education, Hebrew school, set an example. Believe me, it rewards you and the kids in the end. My beautiful daughters do not drink, do drugs, basically have balanced lives. They love history, law, ethics, and it didn't come out of the blue, but by being taught by me (Mom) and by having a Jewish education as well as a secular 1.
hebrewschoolgrad 3 years ago
thank G-d!
Yoski, if he even existed, was a Jew. And a very naughty boy as well. He is not the messiach. Grow up and face Reality, stop looking for an excuse Brickner and co.
bestfootie 3 years ago
(con't) Semitism in my entire life, yet, especially as a student, this constant, chronic attempt to convert me had me hanging by my last nerve. So I began telling people to just leave me alone! How stupid can you possibly be to think you'll convert someone with a Talmud Torah education? No, go for some low hanging fruit, because Jews that know Judism, will never convert to your illogical way of thinking. Yes, there is intermarriage, but I made sure my nephews (5) of them knew all about our heri-
hebrewschoolgrad 3 years ago
Wow, another chameleon front for Zionist aspirations. But we may rest assured - most of the goyim are to dull to even notice ...
kluetenkloeter 3 years ago
yeah, us dumb old goyim have no clue do we?? :)
apologeticsman 3 years ago
And may the words of the Prophet be fulfilled in your case and many others:
"O L-rd, my strength and stronghold, my refuge in day of trouble, nations shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say: "Our fathers have inherited nothing but lies, vanity, and worthless things. Shall a man make for himself gods? Such are no gods!"
Jeremiah 16:19--20
May that happen speedily in our days, and may the world merit the real Anointed's coming.
We need him, whoever he is, I'm sure you'll attest.
bestfootie 3 years ago
jfjweb and everyone else MUST surely ask themselves:
1) Could these 'prophecies' refer to anyone? e.g. riding a donkey - quite unusual in the Middle East hey? Have the following happened? 2)World peace? Isaiah2:4, 3) death ceased? Isaiah25:8 4) resurrection of dead? Isaiah26:9, Temple rebuilt (Ezek40), all Jews back in Israel (Ez 37:21), etc.... Oh. I forgot. The 2nd coming... hmmm. Where's that concept in the Scripture you love so much?
Join b'nei noach and earn share of World to Come.
bestfootie 3 years ago
Surely you have forgotten that the messiah was prophesied to come before the destruction of the 2nd Temple. But I guess that one doesn't count since it doesn't fit in with rejecting Jesus.
jfjweb 3 years ago
Terribly and deliberately mistranslated:
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
(cont.'d)
TurdSnatcher777 2 years ago
There is indisputably an etnacta (Hebrew version of a Semi-Colon) separating 7 weeks and 62 weeks changing the meaning to:
25 Know, therefore, and discern that seven weeks [of years] will elapse between the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalayim until an anointed prince comes. It will remain built for sixty-two weeks [of years], with open spaces and moats; but these will be troubled times.
TurdSnatcher777 2 years ago
This completely changes the time of birth. Interestingly even the 1611 KJV translates the semicolon correctly. It was changed in the 19th century to help aid the Jesus as Messiah myth.
TurdSnatcher777 2 years ago
You see jfjweb, deleting my comments as you did last week just hinders all your readership from finding Truth honestly. It doesn't help anyone.
It's important to note, that the world has RULES. Set things that do not change. If one takes off their hat, it will always fall to the floor. 2+2 always equals 4. Baring that in mind, when the Torah says certain unequivocal things necessary for messiach, that is what has to be. No conveniently forgetting these things out of vested interests.
bestfootie 3 years ago
So, I suppose you don't believe in a God who can perform miracles. How many times did the Lord turn our understanding of Him on it's head? What makes you think you know everything about how God operates? My problem with the outright rejection of Jesus is that you do not consider the whole of the evidence and circumstance. If someone does this and is willing to ask God if it's true, there is nothing else I can say to them, then it is between that person and God.
jfjweb 3 years ago
I agree with what you said, that the Torah has not been usurped by the message of Jesus. Jesus came to fulfill the promises of God and bring eternal forgiveness and salvation to all the world.
In the passages you mention always read the context... read the verse before and the verse after... for example:
"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached..." (Luke 16:16).
jfjweb 3 years ago
To give you one last attempt to try and convince your viewers that the Eternal Word of G-d as Written in the Torah and transmitted Orally to this day has (G-d-Forbid) been usurped, contrary to EXPLICIT TORAH to the contrary (Gen17:9-10; Ex12:17; Ex31:16; Ex12:14, Ex28:43, Lev3:17, 7:36, 10:9, 16:29,31,34; 23:14,21,31,41; 24:3,Num15:15, 18:23; Deut 4:2, 13:1) and even in your own writings (Matt5:19, 19:16-17; 23:1-3; Luke4:16, 16:17,22:8-AND-23:56, James2:10, Matt9:20-AND-Num15:37) PLEASE TRY NOW
bestfootie 3 years ago
5) an interesting fact:
'In the over 3,000 years since Moses received the original Scripture from Mt. Sinai and wrote the 13 copies (twelve of which were distributed among the Tribes), spelling variants have emerged on a total of nine words -- with absolutely no effect on their meaning. The Christian Bible,in comparison, has over 200,000 variants and in 400 instances, the variants change the meaning of the text; 50 of these are of great significance.' - must surely be the new word of G-d hey!!?
bestfootie 3 years ago
Are you talking about translations that interpreted the meaning of original manuscripts? How many different interpretations are there in the Talmud of many significant passages of the Torah and Tenach? The original manuscripts of the New Testament have been very well preserved.
jfjweb 3 years ago
your book is less than 2000 years old. As i quoted before, nine mistakes in the Torahs found way way after G-d Spoke to the entire Jewish People. i think you'll find by that quote how many MiSTAKES your book has, how many of these are deemed 'significant', and how many of these actually affect the reading of the text.
Re the words of the Sages (of Righteous Memory) contained within the Talmud, the whole thing is argument. But all are True. But this authority is contained within Scripture
bestfootie 3 years ago
How many people will argue that the Torah is flawed and that the writings in it are just myth? There are miracles and inconsistencies in it that fly in the face of science and reason and yet they are all true right? How can you believe the signs and miracles that Moses performed, and yet say that what Jesus did, which is much more recent is riddled with mistakes?
jfjweb 3 years ago
Listen, you seem to be waking up a tiny tiny bit. This is really the crux of the matter, which you're starting to understand.
As the Rambam quite clearly states, Israel did not believe in Moses because of burning bushes, miracles or other wonders - and often signs and wonders ARE put in the hands of charlatans to test Israel's faith (The Torah states that all Command's remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)...
bestfootie 3 years ago
Maimonides states: "...What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, "Face to face, God spoke with you..." The Torah also states: "God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us -- who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3)
Judaism is the personal eyewitness experience of 3million people standing at Mt Sinai 3,300 years ago!
bestfootie 3 years ago
Exactly! I'm proud to know that I am decendent of some of the people THAT WERE STANDING @ THE FOOT OF MT. SINAI. What most Christains do not know is that G-d revealed the LAW to US, and our decendents. To be a Jew, an eyewitness to the Revelation @ Sinai, is the most wonderous thing! That all LIVING JEWS ON THE ENTIRE PLANET were there, and we continue our covenent with Avinu Malkanu, through our children and grandchildren, just as they will do into the future. I have never experienced anti-
hebrewschoolgrad 3 years ago
Yes, truly born again believers in Y'shua, the Messiah - and He IS - most certainly DO know that as we know and honour our
Father's special covenant relationship w/
Israel through Abraham.
That is a given with us!!!!
Read Is.53 and 61 and ps.22....and Gen.
22. - Y'shua is the TRUE Lamb was provided for the burnt offering. He is God's
PASSOVER without spot or blemish.....
BARUCH HA SHEM ADONAI!!! :-)
pepsiprincess48033 2 years ago
You can have the tablets of the Law GOLD-PLATED, but trying to keep them will NOT save anyone....and that is exactly
God's point...It is only the BLOOD of the LAMB, Y'shua, that can save you for alll
eternity.
pepsiprincess48033 2 years ago
(see Deuteronomy 17:11).
"According to the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do; thou shalt not turn aside from the sentence which they shall declare unto thee, to the right hand, nor to the left". ['they' later being the Wise of Israel]. That most certainly does not include a (lone) man [read the verse] rejected by the Wise of Israel as a false prophet, liable for death!
Kind of rules him out don't you think?
bestfootie 3 years ago
4)Over 1000years before alleged birth of your 'god', the following was written in the Tenach:
Numbers 23:19: God is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor the son of man, that He should repent. Would He say and not do, or speak and not confirm?
Psalms 146:3: Do not rely on princes nor in the son of man, for he holds no salvation.
(as if these would be necessary to rebut any suggestion in the subsequent (and present times!) that the word of G-d had been edited, G-d-Forbid.)
bestfootie 3 years ago
Now, it looks like you are just looking for reasons not to believe. If you were sincere, you would not use such passages of scripture out of context to make a point!
jfjweb 3 years ago
I don't think the verses are quoted out of context at all, I think they are in their plain meaning quite telling. I am not one of your missionaries quoting 'messianic verses' to support my apriori conclusion that a certain Jewish boy is the Messiah. Look around you pal.
According to the Torah, the world is not created evil. Everything is neutral, but within ourselves we have an 'other side' the side of negativity. This side can irrationalise things that suit its desires.
bestfootie 3 years ago
Everyone needs to make sure they are being objective, not 'believing' because it suits to believe.
Where do we go from here? After the sacrifices comments (once we've finished that) I'm not going to waste anymore time on here with brainwashed nutters. I spoke to some of your lot and the lot of you are crackers... 'Praise the Lor*...Praise the Lor*'... - 'don't you want salvation?' [er, yeh, according to how the Torah tells me that will come...]
bestfootie 3 years ago
2) In Judaic texts, the term messiah was used for all kings, high priests, certain warriors, but never saviour figures. In the Tanach, 'moshiach' is used 38 times for: two patriarchs, six high priests, once for Cyrus, 29 Israelite kings such as Saul and David. Even in Daniel (an End of Days prophet), it is only mentioned in relation to a murdered High Priest!
3) Show me anywhere in Tenach that mentions a 2nd coming.
....
bestfootie 3 years ago
I like these arguments because they are based on scripture. Now as to your question, why were there so many messianic figures? If there was supposed to be only one messiah you mention 38 references. Sounds like 38 comings, let alone a 2nd coming?!? Is that really an argument against receiving forgiveness of sin from God? Where in the scriptures does it say that there should be no more sacrifice for atonement of sin, and yet where is the blood sacrifice now?
jfjweb 3 years ago
I'm so pleased you like them, I do try. You know you should read the verses in Hebrew along with the commentaries that accompany them, you will find out a lot more interesting thing within the Torah.
To this forgiveness from G-d nonsense. Let me ask you a question. Based on your love of 'Scripture', and presumed knowledge of, would you remind me how deliberate sins were forgiven in the times of the Temple. Then we may be able to proceed...
bestfootie 3 years ago
Let's go back a little further... even before the temple... Gen 2:17b "...from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." God established that the penalty for sin is death.
Now let's fast forward to Moses... Lev 17:11'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'
jfjweb 3 years ago
You may say that sacrifices were only for unintentional sins and that prayer was enough, but that's not the way the prophets saw it! Look up 2 Chronicles 7:19 and see that God rejected the Temple in judgment against the people, leaving them with no means of atonement. That's why Daniel, in chapter 9, is looking toward Jerusalem and crying.
So when did this understanding change to say we don't need blood sacrifice? The answer is after the destruction of the second temple.
jfjweb 3 years ago
Nowhere does God tell us, that the penalty of sin has changed, so why would the way we receive atonement change? What we have seen from the death of Jesus is the provision of God of an offering for us by one who is without sin, laying down His life for us as a one for all sacrifice in the line of the sacrificial system that God had established for us through animal sacrifice. The miracle is not the death, but His resurrection 3 days later and He has promised the same to all who believe in Him.
jfjweb 3 years ago
"So when did this understanding change to say we don't need blood sacrifice?"
Hosea 3:4 For the children of Israel shall sit solitary many days without king, and without prince, and without sacrifice, and without pillar, and without ephod or teraphim;
As for your claims on atonement, your teachings are neither Jewish nor biblical. See Lev 5:11; Is 1:11; Micah 6:6-8; Hosea 14:2; Ps 40:6;
Ps 50:7-15; Ex 30:15-16; Num 17:11; Num 31:50
GrouchyJew1939 2 years ago
As for a 2nd coming. I think you are more hung up on it than Christians are! After all it is the Jews themselves who had the understanding of two prototypical views of the Messiah. For those who are truly interested look up Messiah Ben David and Messiah Ben Joseph for more...
jfjweb 3 years ago
FROM JEWS FOR JESUS'S WEBSITE:
"God requires a response from us. For those who respond, Jesus will come as savior and victorious king. But to those who scoff and deny, Messiah's second coming will not bring peace, but judgment."
From an article by Larry Brandt in the Jews for Jesus Ministry's publication, Issues, published on March 1st, 1988.
I'm wondering if the fellow who's managing Jews for Jesus's YT account is familiar with his employers' views on the issue of eschatology, lol.
GrouchyJew1939 2 years ago
This is what the bible teaches.
jfjweb 2 years ago
Blood atonement as the sole means of atonement? That it's permissible and intended for a man-avatar of G-d to be sacrificed for sins??
This is what the Christian Bible teaches, yes...but that's not what Jews believe nor understand from the Bible.
GrouchyJew1939 2 years ago
I was referring to your comment on Larry Brandt's article. If you want to see what Jews for Jesus thinks about atonement and blood sacrifice you can see our article on our website: "Atonement: Questions and answers" by Karol Joseph
jfjweb 2 years ago
Yes, I was just simply stating that Mr. Brandt's article displayed quite some fascination with the Second Coming of Christ. It seems to be a major preoccupation of most Christian fundamentalists.
GrouchyJew1939 2 years ago
You know the Messiah has three roles. Prophet, Priest and King. The first two roles have been fulfilled, but Jesus said himself that He was coming back to fulfill the last role of King. This is Good News! We should all look forward to it! If He wasn't coming back, then what's the point?
jfjweb 2 years ago
It's been 2,000 years. You're still waiting on that guy?
GrouchyJew1939 2 years ago
The bible teaches that prayer works without blood (I Kings 8:46-50), that repentance works without blood (II Samuel 12:13), and that charity works without blood (Proverbs 10:2). Leviticus 17:10-11 prohibits consumption of blood and gives a reason, but does not limit atonement to blood services.
DukeMordy 2 years ago
Tanak also teaches both national and individual atonement comes only by a blood sacrifice. repentence, charity and prayer avail nothing without a sacrifice.
baalteshuva 2 years ago
for the record, some info about your god and religion:
1) archetypal ancient pagan religions beliefs: that the archetypal saviour figure was always born of virgin birth very near 25th dec, in a private location like a barn, leading a life of toil for mankind, rising from dead after being persecuted, and this event being commemorated by meals.
Ring any bells?
2) 25th Dec was originally celebration of the 'sun god'. (One of the tricks of early xns to increase pagan converts)
....
bestfootie 3 years ago
Please only bring intelligent and valid evidence. You harp about evidence. Where is your evidence for this statement? Do the research instead of just believing false evidence to prove your point.
jfjweb 3 years ago
I am always amazed when people say Jews don't evangelize. But scripture gives us plenty of accounts of Jewish prophets who ere commanded by God to spread his word to their non-Jewish neighbors. Jonah was one such prophet. His mission was a mission of evangelization because it was his message that initially saved the city of Nineveh and brought them to repentance.
christreigns12 3 years ago
I was wondering if someone can come up with the historical connection from the apostles (which I consider the original Jews for Jesus) to the modern Messianic Jews. I believe these are the 144,000 Jews in the NT that will be saved by Jesus.
Jossher700 3 years ago
Messianic Judaism is not Christianity in disguise, it is a legitimate branch of Judaism. The Torah has many prophecies that describes the real and true Jewish Messiah and they point to Yeshua (JESUS).
knightsofstjoan2004 4 years ago
disgusting. Jews don't evangelise because they know they're right. They do try to save their own from these sinister cults who try to steal Jewish souls from their rightful place in Torah. These sinister cults want love and harmony but at the same time this is at the expense of Truth, regardless of if that involves keeping G-d's laws.
David Brickner personally uses superiority tactics in his communications with Jews he seeks to convert. DON'T BE SUCKED IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
bestfootie 4 years ago
If you know you are right and know the truth wouldn't you share it with other people who are in the dark? I don't see these people as sinister. Was Jesus (not only a Jew for Jesus but Jesus the Jew himself) sinister? Would a sinister person die for the sins of people? I don't think so.
Jossher700 3 years ago
Jesus did die for all the sins of humanity. Only god can pay for our sins. Which he did! Jesus proved it with both his words and actions that he is the messiah of the world. It is written in the bible of the new testment. If we accept Jesus as our savior and only god ,and if we behave better then he would pardon us and save us from the punishment we all deserve hell.
SpacerAM2 4 years ago
Jesus didn't die for our sins, deut 24:16 states that all people are responsible for there own sins. David Brickner is a misguided liar.
joshtakos 4 years ago
Isaiah 53 4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
bigchisholm 4 years ago
This passage is about Israel who was crushed because of evil from their host nations, led like sheep to the slaughter when Christians persecuted them and many of whom went astray as Ezekiel predicted. If Jesus was G-d (John1:1) he can't be stricken by G-d or get punished if He is the ultimate judge and ruler. He was no slaughtered sheep as he voluntarily went instead of using his powers to rid the dangers from him. He didn't really bear our sorrows as Deut 24:16 teaches of individual liability.
joshtakos 4 years ago
Have you read the rest of that passage and analyzed it carefully josh? Was it Israel who bore the iniquities "of us all"? And is it the soul of Israel , that we should provide as an offering for sin? Was it Israel that was buried with the wicked and the rich? Was it Israel that had done no violence and spoke no deceit? Did Israel bear the griefs and sorrows of others?
christreigns12 3 years ago
And finally is it Israel that God is speaking about when he says "by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many, for he shall bear their iniquities"? Because the scripture says elsewhere that "all have sinned and there is none righteous". Only Jesus was sinless and only he willingly offered his life as a sin sacrifice. This prophecy is on the coming servant who will suffer, atone and die for his people and justify them. This prophecy is on none other than Jesus Christ.
christreigns12 3 years ago
Really? He's a misguided liar? So the 500 plus people who witnessed Jesus die on the cross and rose from the dead were also lying? I seriously doubt that. From the deaths of the Jewish/Christian martyrs, I don't think they'd die to propagate a lie.
Jossher700 3 years ago
what evidence is there that '500 plus' people saw this event?
cf - the Jewish National Revelation - where G-d spoke to the entire people 'Israel' - the Torah in Exodus 12:37 tells us that there were '600,000 adult males on foot'. Add the same amount of women, and people younger than 'adult' i.e. less than 20, and you have approx 3MILLION people witnessing the Infinite Event. What is your claim - 500 people? (which needs evidence in itself.) If G-d wanted His people to abandon...
bestfootie 3 years ago
Then Paul goes said: "and that he(Jesus) appeared to Cephas; then to the twelve; then he(Jesus) appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain until now, but some are fallen asleep;" 1 Cor. 15:5-6.
Jossher700 3 years ago
1 Cor 15:7-8: "After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time."
Jossher700 3 years ago
Acts 9:3-7: "And he...heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."
Jossher700 3 years ago
Ok let's talk evidence. Legally, relevant evidence is evidence that makes an assertion of fact more probable or less probable. A testimony is evidence, e.g testimonies of witnesses to Jesus death and resurrection. It's called testimonial evidence. Once it is written its called documentary evidence, e.g. the scriptures. It is admissible in court if it is relevant. Is that the evidence you are referring to?
Jossher700 3 years ago
Oh don't bother arguing it's hearsay. The "evidence" e.g. the Bible, the dead sea scrolls are over 20 years old. As such it is an exception to the hearsay rule. So, legally, it is considered competent evidence.
Jossher700 3 years ago
To recapitulate: There were many witnesses to the Resurrection: (1) Paul lists many of these witness in 1 Co 15 (Jesus was seen by Cephas (Simon Peter) Lk 24:34; (2) Jesus was seen by the twelve (apostles) Lk 24:36-43; Ac 1:2-3; (3) He was seen by five hundred people at one time (in Galilee) - cf. Mt 28:10,16-17; (4) He was seen by James, the Lord's brother
(5) He was seen by Paul, on the road to Damascus - Ac 22:6-10;
Jossher700 3 years ago
6) To Mary Magdalene - Mk 16:9; Jn 20:14; (7) To ther women returning from the tomb - Mt 28:9,10; (8) To two disciples on the road to Emmaus - Lk 24:13-33; (9) To the apostles, Thomas absent - Jn 20:19-24; (10) To the apostles, Thomas present - Jn 20:26-29; (11)
To seven disciples by the Lake of Tiberias (Sea of Galilee)Jn 21:1-23; (12) To the apostles at the ascension - Ac 1:3-12. Therefore, over a period of forty days, over 500 people saw Jesus after His death!
Jossher700 3 years ago
But don't worry if you missed Yeshua at that time. You will definitely see him again with your very eyes when he comes again: "BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen." Revelation 1:7.
Jossher700 3 years ago
Torah (Heaven Forbid - the Torah forbids such a disloyalty many many many times, and according to Jewish Law A JEW WHO PURPORTS TO CONVERT TO J4J OR ANYTHING ELSE, OR ACCEPT JOSKI is a RENUNCIATION of Judaism.) it makes sense that He would most certainly have given the 'stiff-necked' Jews a way of knowing the 'replacement truth' and so they would not hav been subjected to massacre after massacre by christians purpoting to be fulfilling the Will of G-d - (Inquisition for example).
bestfootie 3 years ago
You didn't answer the question. Would you die for a lie?
Jossher700 3 years ago
To confirm that the New Testament is the continuation of the Old Testament (as oppose to the Book of Mormon being a continuation of the Bible), watch youtube's "Fulfilled Bible prophecies." This will prove every prophecy in the old testament concerning Yeshua came true in the old testament.
Jossher700 3 years ago
Your comment sounds like rhetoric masquerading as a sincere statement. We aren't masquerading as anything, we are Jews who have found the Jewish Messiah: Jesus.
jfjweb 4 years ago
Yes, that's EXACTLY what a christian is.
macman13 4 years ago
jews for jesus sounds like christians masquerading as jews.
macman13 4 years ago
that's because that is indeed what they are
JaredEricFusia 4 years ago
I'm not a Messianic Jew but a Christian. I was wondering, doesn't the Freedom of Religion Clause under the First Amendment protect their fundamental right to believe what they want to believe in? Is persecting a person by reason of their faith immoral, illegal and unbiblical? Didn't the Nazis persecute the Jews by reason of their faith? Thus, if you persecute the Messianic Jews because of what they believe what does that make you? Aren't we commanded to love our enemies?
Jossher700 3 years ago
JFJ are God-fearing descendents of Abraham , Isac and Jacob, who come to realize that Yeshua was indeed the long awaited Messiah, who came first as a messiah-priest (who gave an attoning sacrifice on behalf of all of us - Isaiah 53), and will come again as messiah-king, to rule an eternal kingdom (Isaiah 9).
go talk to one of them, and you will change your mind about calling them bad names.
cptspok 5 years ago