Realize what you are watching? Not that long after the war, a Westerner comes in to shoot a TV show and then wants to do some randori. Though outweighed by 50+ pounds, Tohei sensei is just keeping him off him and putting him down gently. Then the guest goes home. Relief.
If you know even a little about Japanese culture and history, you realize this.
Aikido is a martial art first and foremost, regardless of how some may chose to practice it.
My understanding is you must first learn the principle, so that you can create the technique. The technique is the formula an expression of the principles.
Roy Suenaka explico esta situacion los norteamericanos eran visitas en el dojo y por lo tanto no se les podia lastimar severamente como en una pelea real
My Shihan always is very clear about Aikido NOT being self defense.
I various talks with martial artists I always came to the conclusion that Aikido ultimately is the "formless" martial art.
Also for the attacker it feels that way. Any Aikidoka who trains with good blackbelts knows what I mean... It feels like you are facing nature itself. Sucking you in, letting you fly away, pushing you without being able to resist.
That is what Aikido is about. The katas are there to understand it.
i think to pull off the basics and advanced moves is both technique and principle but timing is also a key i think. because if someone punches you and you go to do ikkyo for example if you leave it too long then your going to get punched if you do it to slow then the other person depending on there style /fight smarts will ether counter or dismiss the technique they would see it coming.
I think you are asking an intelligent question recshooter, and I suspect that the answer is that while the classic techniques and training-exercises form a body of 'fundamentals', in a real, unpredictable fight all of these should be forgotten and sort of blend seamlessly into your spontaneous, exactly appropriate response to challenges in real-time.
Look at the classic depictions of wrestling samurai in the paintings of the era: the combatants are never displaying pretty, recognisable form; they are struggling rather like two bears or gorillas. When I first noticed this I took it as instructive, rather than as a mistake on the part of all the great feudal painters.
My guess is, the aikidoka is like the bear and the gorilla except with more strategy and 'moves' he can pull out when the opportunity arises.
By the way, Ueshiba also said that anyone who really understood the core principle of Aikido could become as good as him in six months.
While I suspect that this is an exaggeration, it is I think intended to be demonstative of how much Aikido was essentially about spirituality and state of mind rather than technical wizardry.
Still, Ueshiba trained his body and technique relentlessly.
To be fair some have said that Ueshiba banned Tohei from doing any techniques here. IF that is true then that brings up another set of questions, namely that aikido is not "safe" to apply on non-practitioners. The film is kind of jerky but it looks like a kotegaeshi at 39 seconds. Some said that Ueshiba was furious at Tohei for roughing this guy up too much...I don't know
@recshooter Ueshiba's old dojo was known as hell dojo, because the students were injured frequently. His pre war stuff was VERY rough. I have never heard of Tohei as being a rough guy. Having trained in both Aikikai and KI society, I would have to say that Aikikai is more rough and alive. This is just my observation. I'm not aware of Tohei being too rough in any way. A lot of Aikido guys I know say that he was too "nice" when they trained with him, but that doesn't mean he couldn't deliver pain.
I don't know what 's going on in this video but I can say two things. The guy in hakama is way too close for good mai-ai and two, he is the one attacking! Unless I'm confused Aikido techniques don't begin by grabbing at the other guy. No wonder he's have such a tough time.
The white belt was a big american journalist that was not convinced Aikido was an effective self defense technique so he asked the other guy (one of Ueshiba' student) to fight him. The Aikido guy wasn't allowed to use some of the more advanced and dangerous techniques and the american wasn't allow to throw punches at him.
The point here is that it's 'real' in the sense that uke is resisting and not doing elegant ukemi. So what? Isn't the constant complaint that aikido doesn't work 'for real'? Well: it does - who wins here, do you think? No: not pretty - but real fights aren't pretty. Lots of people seem to think that this video discredits aikido. I just don't see why.
if a truly great master of aikido such as Koichi Tohei has to fall back on his judo technique in a sparring match with an not pre-conditioned uke, it is a strong indication that aikido isn't that great for a "real" fight - but i might be wrong.
I haven't really seen a judo technique in this vid. Could you please point out where it's supposed to be?
And of course aikido isn't great in a real fight. Aikido and fighting are two different things. At my dojo we're always told that aikido is a study in martial principles, NOT self-defense.
That doesn't mean, of course, that aikido as a whole is ineffective. One could distill the principles or simplify techniques and use them for self-defense purposes.
well put. When asked if Aikido works for self defense, my teacher always answers with a big smile : "I've been doing Aikido for 40 years now and I never got in a fight, so yeah it works".
Train to fight and you will get into fights, train not to fight and you wont have to.
It seems alot harder in a real situation to get deep behind them and control their center of balance since they always change their stance more often. I once read about how you should form a triangle behind their feet or something like that. It would be easier to use their center to push or pull them straight back or forward. Don't some of these techniques require you to pull them downward to make them lose balance or backwards.
The video is not very interesting, but the question is. I used to practice an aikido variant where many external influences where actively referenced. This was interesting because the purity of the origin could more easily be separated and understood. And in that light, I quite lean towards principles. To some extent, this can be seen in the video since there are few actual techniques being used. Maybe that was the point of the video:)
I personally believe that aikido is principle taught through the examples of technique. I think these techniques are examples only, not to be followed slavishly. I don't practice aikido anymore but I do think it is very interesting.
It should be both. These are grappling applications in aikido. Even if this was the extent of aikido (which it isn't) aikido's principle of no way, tenacity, respect etc. should allow practitioners to broaden the scope of their techniques. Techniques enhance philosophy, and philosophy enhances techniques. I'm very idealistic.
Realize what you are watching? Not that long after the war, a Westerner comes in to shoot a TV show and then wants to do some randori. Though outweighed by 50+ pounds, Tohei sensei is just keeping him off him and putting him down gently. Then the guest goes home. Relief.
If you know even a little about Japanese culture and history, you realize this.
Aikido is a martial art first and foremost, regardless of how some may chose to practice it.
shinjukool 3 months ago
its cool how in reality, when you use it, all aikido is pretty much koykunage
nasgaf 5 months ago
imagine people add this to their stand up grappling arsenal??
iexcalibui2 7 months ago
Aikido pode até ser eficiente, mas contra leigos e desde que o praticante esteja num nível muito avançado.
Ricarmem 1 year ago
My understanding is you must first learn the principle, so that you can create the technique. The technique is the formula an expression of the principles.
Godfathergame 1 year ago
Roy Suenaka explico esta situacion los norteamericanos eran visitas en el dojo y por lo tanto no se les podia lastimar severamente como en una pelea real
salisburyross 1 year ago
My Shihan always is very clear about Aikido NOT being self defense.
I various talks with martial artists I always came to the conclusion that Aikido ultimately is the "formless" martial art.
Also for the attacker it feels that way. Any Aikidoka who trains with good blackbelts knows what I mean... It feels like you are facing nature itself. Sucking you in, letting you fly away, pushing you without being able to resist.
That is what Aikido is about. The katas are there to understand it.
FinalKenny2 1 year ago
what would beyond spontanity in aikido?
LibraryLies 1 year ago
i think its both, just like a real martial style should be
ikterion 2 years ago
i think to pull off the basics and advanced moves is both technique and principle but timing is also a key i think. because if someone punches you and you go to do ikkyo for example if you leave it too long then your going to get punched if you do it to slow then the other person depending on there style /fight smarts will ether counter or dismiss the technique they would see it coming.
TheBmike1 2 years ago
I think you are asking an intelligent question recshooter, and I suspect that the answer is that while the classic techniques and training-exercises form a body of 'fundamentals', in a real, unpredictable fight all of these should be forgotten and sort of blend seamlessly into your spontaneous, exactly appropriate response to challenges in real-time.
FrogmortonHotchkiss 2 years ago
My thoughts exactly...didn't Ueshiba himself say that aikido, at the highest level, was supposed to be spontaneous?
recshooter 2 years ago
Look at the classic depictions of wrestling samurai in the paintings of the era: the combatants are never displaying pretty, recognisable form; they are struggling rather like two bears or gorillas. When I first noticed this I took it as instructive, rather than as a mistake on the part of all the great feudal painters.
My guess is, the aikidoka is like the bear and the gorilla except with more strategy and 'moves' he can pull out when the opportunity arises.
FrogmortonHotchkiss 2 years ago
By the way, Ueshiba also said that anyone who really understood the core principle of Aikido could become as good as him in six months.
While I suspect that this is an exaggeration, it is I think intended to be demonstative of how much Aikido was essentially about spirituality and state of mind rather than technical wizardry.
Still, Ueshiba trained his body and technique relentlessly.
FrogmortonHotchkiss 2 years ago
@FrogmortonHotchkiss
To be fair some have said that Ueshiba banned Tohei from doing any techniques here. IF that is true then that brings up another set of questions, namely that aikido is not "safe" to apply on non-practitioners. The film is kind of jerky but it looks like a kotegaeshi at 39 seconds. Some said that Ueshiba was furious at Tohei for roughing this guy up too much...I don't know
recshooter 2 years ago
@recshooter Ueshiba's old dojo was known as hell dojo, because the students were injured frequently. His pre war stuff was VERY rough. I have never heard of Tohei as being a rough guy. Having trained in both Aikikai and KI society, I would have to say that Aikikai is more rough and alive. This is just my observation. I'm not aware of Tohei being too rough in any way. A lot of Aikido guys I know say that he was too "nice" when they trained with him, but that doesn't mean he couldn't deliver pain.
jmikejapan 8 months ago
ı dont understand why the tohei can't do ikkyo nikkyıo kokyu nage e.x he is wrestling but aikido isn't this:(:(
maanyaah 2 years ago
I don't know what 's going on in this video but I can say two things. The guy in hakama is way too close for good mai-ai and two, he is the one attacking! Unless I'm confused Aikido techniques don't begin by grabbing at the other guy. No wonder he's have such a tough time.
fakeyf9 2 years ago
The white belt was a big american journalist that was not convinced Aikido was an effective self defense technique so he asked the other guy (one of Ueshiba' student) to fight him. The Aikido guy wasn't allowed to use some of the more advanced and dangerous techniques and the american wasn't allow to throw punches at him.
bmaiabhe 2 years ago
The point here is that it's 'real' in the sense that uke is resisting and not doing elegant ukemi. So what? Isn't the constant complaint that aikido doesn't work 'for real'? Well: it does - who wins here, do you think? No: not pretty - but real fights aren't pretty. Lots of people seem to think that this video discredits aikido. I just don't see why.
MrUserbill 2 years ago
It is a passive resistance therefore not real. He never attempted takedowns for example.
gespilk 2 years ago
if a truly great master of aikido such as Koichi Tohei has to fall back on his judo technique in a sparring match with an not pre-conditioned uke, it is a strong indication that aikido isn't that great for a "real" fight - but i might be wrong.
mahsafagga 2 years ago
I haven't really seen a judo technique in this vid. Could you please point out where it's supposed to be?
And of course aikido isn't great in a real fight. Aikido and fighting are two different things. At my dojo we're always told that aikido is a study in martial principles, NOT self-defense.
That doesn't mean, of course, that aikido as a whole is ineffective. One could distill the principles or simplify techniques and use them for self-defense purposes.
cryodragoon 2 years ago
well put. When asked if Aikido works for self defense, my teacher always answers with a big smile : "I've been doing Aikido for 40 years now and I never got in a fight, so yeah it works".
Train to fight and you will get into fights, train not to fight and you wont have to.
Fangen88 2 years ago 3
It seems alot harder in a real situation to get deep behind them and control their center of balance since they always change their stance more often. I once read about how you should form a triangle behind their feet or something like that. It would be easier to use their center to push or pull them straight back or forward. Don't some of these techniques require you to pull them downward to make them lose balance or backwards.
fightnight79 2 years ago
The video is not very interesting, but the question is. I used to practice an aikido variant where many external influences where actively referenced. This was interesting because the purity of the origin could more easily be separated and understood. And in that light, I quite lean towards principles. To some extent, this can be seen in the video since there are few actual techniques being used. Maybe that was the point of the video:)
BenFiesta 3 years ago
I personally believe that aikido is principle taught through the examples of technique. I think these techniques are examples only, not to be followed slavishly. I don't practice aikido anymore but I do think it is very interesting.
recshooter 3 years ago
@recshooter What do you practice currently?
Ronnock 1 year ago
@Ronnock I practice Systema although that might be an overstatement lol
recshooter 5 months ago
Interesting question, why didn't anybody comment already?
It should be both. These are grappling applications in aikido. Even if this was the extent of aikido (which it isn't) aikido's principle of no way, tenacity, respect etc. should allow practitioners to broaden the scope of their techniques. Techniques enhance philosophy, and philosophy enhances techniques. I'm very idealistic.
What do you think?
ireallyloveyou91 3 years ago