Is Taxation Moral?

[KidBlondie]

thanks for doing this guys!

[SonjaSmith]

You guys are great. Invest in some wireless lapel mics. or something similar.

Why werent you guys at Libertopia which we just had in SD Oct 21st?

[centerrightpunk]

i'm curious, though. what if you believe you have the right to shoot someone if they steal from you? LOL.

[centerrightpunk]

i have to admit, this is pretty funny. haha.

[howser12]

You guys are my heros!!!!

[robin22391]

its called implied consent and you did give it.

[CredoVeritas]

14th Amendment Citizenship is the shackle they grab at to pick you up and toss you around.

It's one of the unspoken truths that is avoided in "school".

The greatest lie is that of omission.

[amanuscar]

Who is the douchebag who disliked this video????? Seriously, what a tool!

[1RationalMind]

The bureaucrat simply exclaims "it's not theft... because we passed a law... and so it's not theft"

Some argument. Under that "logic" any law the government passes is moral- just because they passed a law that says it is.

[SW627]

Firemen, Police and Schools were all payed for in society before income tax was imposed. How did it get payed for then? School kids were alot smarter back then too ! In Canada the mear threat of Rescinding your SIN can stop an Audit from happening.....unless you really owe them alot of money. The name of the game is to "KEEP YOU IN THE FOLD" They don't want people to know the voluntary nature of it all. This is why they are offering to give people their SSN or SIN at birth now. What a scam

[SW627]

A good guy to listen to is George Gordon. I don't agree with everything he says but he's spot on when it comes to the income tax. Go to "george gordon.org" and in his radio library go to page 40. He has 7 shows on the income tax in America. It will open your eyes. Social Security participation is voluntary and makes you a taxpayer. Always remember ANYTHING YOU APPLY FOR IS VOLUNTARY. Try going to court and say " The Government forced me to fill out and submit an application". It was your doing.

[chorizo1337]

@SW627 LMAO, Nothing in government is voluntary. I would love to pay for the neccesities in life, but that is not possible. You mean to tell me that paying for soldiers to kill innocents overseas is "voluntary"?

[SW627]

@chorizo1337 ANYTHING YOU APPLY FOR IS VOLUNTARY. How can anyone be that stupid? Oh yeah........Public School. LMAO. You'll never get into Law School with a brain like yours. LoL LoL LoL..................LoL.

[chorizo1337]

@SW627 Fuck dude look at your grammar, you will never get into any school. Law school is for assfucks anyways. Public school is not voluntary, you have to choose to subject your kids to the states school, or your own curriculum. Children dont have a choice not to be educated at all.

[SW627]

You all applied for a Social Security Number which is a voluntary action. You are also dealing with Federal Reserve Notes instead of "property". Furthermore you've never even looked into how the courts have defined "Income". Therefore YOU MUST PAY TAX. Get out of Social Security if you don't like paying. It's simple.

[chorizo1337]

@SW627 As if thats possible you little bitch

[sethfulton]

Joe: "Do you consider yourself a moral person?"

Dan McA: "Sure..."

Joe: "and...do you see stealing as being immoral, taking someone's property?"

Dan McA: "NO....No...we're not stealing!"

HI-larious...

[younitehumanity]

If you don't claim your land...you can never own it...so you will pay the property tax.

[thegreatfish]

The judge was trying to explain the legal system to these people, but what they really needed explained was the difference between fantasy and reality. Fantasy: We all stop paying taxes and continue on with our lives in the same exact manner, except with a bit more cash. Reality: Living within civilized society costs money. Who's paying those firemen to come to your home in an emergency? The city. Who's paying for your kid's educations? The state. Where do they get their money? Taxes.

[chorizo1337]

@thegreatfish I dont know why you leftists think like such communists. Firemen and other "civilized" services can be private businesses too. They would be way better off than some shittty collective need like today

[thegreatfish]

@chorizo1337 Yeah, it would be great to keep the fire department out of the hands of those who can't afford it. And what about when a brush fire is heading toward a neighborhood? Do they save all the homes? Or just the ones who pay for the service? Unfortunately, privatization doesn't work for everything. In fact, most of the operations that fell under government control only did so after they failed privately, like the highway system.

[ladyevet]

Tax does not discriminate. Taxes are charged on legal and illegal income sources

[MaikUniversum]

HAHAHA "none of us signed it, but.. reality is we gotta bla bla bla" :DDDD He goes in circles, he KNOWS he is wrong, he KNOWS taxation is immoral, he KNOWS that "social contract" is no contract at all, and still he: "well, reality is we are all slaves to this system, it always was and always will be". LOL

[MaikUniversum]

is murder moral? You gotta be insance to say "yes". Same applies to taxation. Statists are insane.

[ben5017]

We own nothing true, if you pay never ending property taxes, you lease the land just as we did from King George of England before the revolution.

[OldSmellyCrotch]

The law says that stealing is wrong, that robbery is wrong. The law defines "robbery" as:

robbery

n. 1) the direct taking of property (including money) from a person (victim) through force, threat or intimidation.

Well, that is the act of taxation, the threat of incarceration or homelessness if your don't handover your money. It fits the definition perfectly. However, the gentleman representing the tax office seems to be of the impression that it's okay because someone made it a law to steal.

[Tyler4981]

0 in 84 people dislikes this video.

[ericfontainejazz]

You guys are awesome! Playing dumb is a great strategy to expose the government as the fraudulent gang they are...

[MSM586]

Amen brothers they don't like to admit there a bunch of crooks stand up for your rights

[totheman]

The tall guys face at 4:03 when he tries to side step the issue.

[VoteLib3rty]

Thanks for working to end slavery.

[AircooledJohn]

it's HIS law; the "law" states who it applies to, they have to prove it applies TO YOU (They can't). The basis of everything is that CONTRACTS MUST BE VOLUNTARY, or it's extortion. It MUST be voluntary. They are trying to pretend it's a "social obligation" when in fact it's a voluntary contract. Opt out of their "society". If the guy in the suit wants to pay, that's 100% ok, but it can't be "required" or it's unlawful.

[somaobsidian]

"Neither you nor I, nor would 99 percent of the farmers, walk up and ring a man's doorbell, hold out a hand and say, 'Give me what you've earned even though I have not.' We simply wouldn't do it because we would be facing directly the violation of a moral law, 'Thou shalt not steal.' In short, we would be held accountable for our actions."

The Proper Role of Government - Ezra Taft Benson.

It helped me understand the immorality of taxation more than anything else. Allegories are powerful tools.

[somaobsidian]

Telling an allegorical story often helps.

"Assume, for example, that we were farmers, and that we received a letter from the government telling us that we were going to get a thousand dollars this year for plowed up acreage. But rather than the normal method of collection, we were to take this letter and collect $69.71 from Bill Brown, at such and such an address, and $82.47 from Henry Jones, $59.80 from a Bill Smith, and so on down the line; that these men would make up our farm subsidy.

[mouser98k]

basically what the official told them is they can have their opinion, but he has got the guns :)

[marquise108]

Awesome job guys!!!!!

[aymfl]

Brilliant work guys. Thank you for your non-cooperation with the empire!

[Jalu3]

This begs the question, that has generally looked down upon, should property owners be the only ones allowed to vote for or against property tax proposals?

[CommonAtheist]

Basically you guys are asking a thug to admit he's a thug. He's a bureaucrat, a politician, an extortionist, and a thief rolled into one. Do you really expect him to say "yes, I admit it, I'm a doing wrong" He's gonna say and do everything in his power to weasel his way out of any trap you set for him. Besides, the guns are on his side so he'll speak to you only as long as he's comfortable. After that you'll be asked to leave, and if you don't leave you go to jail. He wins either way.

[somaobsidian]

@CommonAtheist Yes, he wins. But only until more people start paying attention, and start thinking.

Unfortunately, the situation won't get anywhere productive before they start flaunting some sort of martial law. However, at this point, the issue will have been brought to head and hopefully more people will become morally troubled by what they're doing.

[billburns2]

What a lame argument:

"I never signed anything"

This legal eagle should try refusing to pay a restaurant bill on the basis that he didn't sign anything - see how far he gets with that defense.

I'm sure that paying in dollar bills caused the IRS to grind to a halt and gave Obama some sleepless nights.

[russiantraitor]

@billburns2 When you enter a restaurant you're given a bill of exactly what you ordered: The order is an agreement, albeit a verbal one.

When the government forces you to pay a bill which you did not agree to, with the threat of confiscating your property or imprisonment if you do not pay, that is extortion, it is theft, and it is immoral.

[billburns2]

The government is of the people for the people and spends the people's money on services for the people. Every penny is accounted for. It's a bill of what you ordered.

By deciding to live in a country you are agreeing to abide by the law of the land. Ensuring that payment is levied from everyone for services that are available to everyone is not immoral. Nor is it theft or extortion.

[russiantraitor]

First off, all this talk about the government being of and for the people is illogical collectivist-speak, there is no "the people" just individuals. There's no way some corrupt bureaucrat is going to figure out what is good for every individual they presume to represent. Also, I didn't choose to live in the US I was born here, my living here doesn't justify the "mafia with the flag" dictating to me what services I will receive and at what price.

[russiantraitor]

Secondly, you're saying it's moral to FORCE a service on someone and then force them to pay for it. No one but the government works in this way - Walmart can't just send you stuff in the mail and force you to pay for it. Government services suck because they get your money whether they do a good job, provide a good service, or not.

You realize I'm arguing from the side of freedom and your arguing against it, right?

[billburns2]

Nothing is being forced on you other than payment of services provided. Want to pay zero tax? Leave the country. You can retain your citizenship and you'll be liable for no tax whatsoever. If you want to stay then you need to abide by the laws created by THE PEOPLE.

Let's say I rent an apartment from you and a few years into the tenency I decide that I don't want to pay for any of the stuff I'm using - water, gas, electric, rent. Will you be OK with me staying in your apartment?

[russiantraitor]

I feel like I'm repeating myself here: Just like when you order at a restaurant or buy something at WalMart, when you rent an apartment there is an agreement! Not only that there are a million different properties you can choose to rent from as opposed to one government.

[billburns2]

You're repeating the same erroneous statement. By living in an apartment you agree to abide by the lease. By deciding to live in a country you agree to abide by its laws. If you don't agree you're free to go somewhere that suits you better. You have 192 countries to choose from. You can also choose to have a different government if you like. Governments are voted in, remember?

[somaobsidian]

@billburns2 Those are suggestions that don't hold water. The other countries have governments, too -- none of which voluntaryists prefer. And do you really think you get to decide what kind of government you can have? No, the powers that be do that for you. Do the Democrat and Republican ruling parties really differ that much from each other? No, they give us a choice between two parties that make up a small fraction of the political spectrum.

[billburns2]

@somaobsidian

Then the voluntaryists are SOL. The fact remains that you DO have a choice of 191 other countries. They are the product of an anarcho-capitalist free market, there is no uber-government dictating to those sovereign nations, they have simply found that it is most cost-efficient to defend themselves territorially and run their countries through government.

As with other markets, nobody is obliged to supply you with something just because you want it.

[chorizo1337]

@billburns2 "government is effective" Oh geez, you know how much money the government spends on simple crap? They always overspend, they are very inefficient, what a retard

[billburns2]

@chorizo1337

Why don't you try quoting what I've actually written?

Yes, I do know how much money the government spends as its accounts are in the public domain.

[russiantraitor]

As for the utilities, there is also an agreement for this service, but there's another problem here - most utility companies are government enforced monopolies - which is a slightly different topic - but it's the same state coersion we have communized roads rather than privately owned roads.

[billburns2]

communized roads? You mean everyone gets to use them? That sounds like an very fair system to me. You'd prefer to limit road transport to only those who could afford to pay to use them? What other limitations would owners be able to put on private roads? Howabout roads for whites only? Women-free lanes maybe?

Get a grip son.

[kfconme]

@russiantraitor Granted it is immoral to force someone to pay for something, but in our country we have to elect these people into thier positions.

If anything it seems you dissagree with how the feds govern. They talk about how they like free enterprise, unfortunitely the federal government is the only centralized government. The problem is that our state governments are too closely tided to special interests and not the people they should be representing.

[qubei]

Great video, although I disagree with your beliefs (as you seem to imply all government is immoral and illegitimate, where as I don't think anarchism works for large populations)

[mecher3k]

Okay you retards, don't like taxes? Go live in the middle of the ocean.

[MoneyIsSilver]

This video almost brought tears of joy to my eyes. People are waking up! Awesome.

The idiot bureaucrats look stunned!! LMAO

[hotforliberty]

Wow, thanks for the great comment! None of the bureaucrats we've encountered have ever had these sorts of questions asked of them. So yes, they are a bit shocked.

[MoneyIsSilver]

Did you get my email from the meetup mailing list about the silver barter online marketplace? Sometimes I suspect tampering with my email.

[MrDivitiae]

It is refreshing to see fellow-San Diegans exposing the Gun in the Room. Like the man in the end of the video promises, I too quit a government contracting job because of the immorality of it, after being exposed to Mises, Rothbard, and Reason. It took a big toll on my career and life: the counterfeiters were paying well with the money they printed, but my shame could no longer be bought. Good luck to him and very nice job on the video.

[hotforliberty]

Thanks so much! Since you live in the same area I certainly do hope I get the chance to meet you. That is great that you took action to live your values. You can be an inspiration to many others.

[chris532008]

@MrDivitiae you must go further, address the churches who sit lamely by allowing this immorality to protect thier tax exempt status. lean on them to take thier responsibility and start the movement to remove all these idiotic taxes which have deposed the people into slavery

[wallyb77]

Is that the host of the complete liberty podcast?

[hotforliberty]

Yes, that is Wes Bertrand in there. Check out the hotforliberty DMV video to see Wes featured.

[Claytrainor]

Excellent activism!

[hotforliberty]

Thanks so much!

[giggan1]

I wasn't expecting to see something like this outside of NH, thanks for standing up to the mob.

[hotforliberty]

NH has definitely been the hub of such activity, but the number of liberty-minded individuals in San Diego has been steadily growing and starting to make their presence felt. Thanks for the comment!

[MoneyIsSilver]

Just curious, was the lady who chimed in that her assessment was way over the value of her house even part of your group? I'd love to know if some random person agreed with you guys.

[russiantraitor]

@MoneyIsSilver LOL, that woman was not part of us, she was just a pissed off bystander. Mr. McAlliser's attempt to spark the slave-on-slave violence back-fired here.

[MoneyIsSilver]

Hey, did you get my email from the meetup mailing list about my online silver barter marketplace?

[UtubeMyAccountName]

@hotforliberty, Why did you count out the money?

Is there a LAW that says you must. If there isn't you should not have done it. Next time pay in pennies.

...and unless he can show you a LAW that says you must count it out, DON"T!

The real problem is that people have allowed the government to convince them that they are constrained by the law, when in reality it is the government that is supposed to be constrained, not the people.

That's how the Founding Fathers saw it anyway.

[hotforliberty]

If you were with us that day, you would have been one among a chorus of people asking the same question: Where is the law? But they made it very clear that even though there was no law, that they would no accept the money and would then impose fines on Joe. Evidently the "law" was whatever they decided it was. Maybe when this point is reached next time though, we can be even more resolute in our position of not counting out the bills (or pennies).

[UtubeMyAccountName]

They cannot refuse payment, and then make a claim of refusal to pay on your part.

...and you have all of this on tape. This is what the courts, and juries are for fellas.

[hotforliberty]

Good point. We'll have to give that a go next time.

[chris3443]

Subscribed!

[Probesoul]

Income and property tax is evil:

Property tax means you can never own land and what is built upon it.

Income tax means you can never own the produce of your labor, which is the produce of your flesh. This means you can never own your own body.

So in the so-called "free world", you can never own your flesh or the ground from which your flesh came from: (we all come from the earth since we need things that grow from the earth and things that are made from the earth to sustain our lives).

[Spideynw]

Awesome job!

[hotforliberty]

Thanks, Spidey!

[freestatereport]

make sure to call free talk live about it.

[hotforliberty]

Great idea.

[TackleTheWorld]

I can't believe that guy wanted you to count out the bills. What a jerk! Does he demand that of other people at the cashier at taco bell? I don't think so. Thanks for speaking up Joe and Wes and Former Military Man. Well Done.

[hotforliberty]

Yes, we were all peeved at this power trip. Thanks for the comment!

[wyomingliberty]

Free Keene is in the news again. Ian wins again.

[saintmichaelsarmoury]

Isn't there a sign in there that says something to the effect that every "customer's business is private and it should be kept private like at a bank or a doctor's office? If so, I wonder if that tax collector could get in trouble for broadcasting your personal grievance to the entire room.

[hotforliberty]

I don't know, but I think that is one of the best parts because his question completely backfires.

[TheLiberalssuckdick]

you should have given pennies, your to kind giving them $1 bills.

[hotforliberty]

Yes, but unfortunately this is where they chose to have their power trip. They made Joe count out every $1 bill in front of them. If he had done the same thing with pennies, we would have been there for weeks! They wouldn't accept the money unless he counted it out in front of them. Of course there is no rational behind it.

[TheLiberalssuckdick]

I think you should have done it.

Its worth it.

and at the end of the day, they must accept it by law.

Your taxes is a debt and federal reserve notes and coins must be accepted as payments of debt otherwise your not obligated to pay it.

I think you can ask the bank to give you those $500 penny boxes that are rolled up.

[Michaelbenoit7]

Joe is a great guy and I like him, but how can he claim a moral high ground when his existance is by way of state'sconfiscation of peoples labor for the military industrial complex? Some of his supporters are in the same camp as him.

Mike

[askwhatifdotorg]

That's a tough one Mike. Lots of people are just waking up to how things really operate, but they may be locked into their current careers for any number of reasons. It's time for a mass awakening and a whole new system.

[Michaelbenoit7]

Well, stop stealing or living off the plunder before we condemn others for doing it. I think that is the proper order or at least call yourself a thief while you complain about the other thieves.

[duryeajm2]

"Stop stealing or living off the plunder before we condemn others for doing it"? --- Well, I'll tell you what: anyone who who ALREADY pays half of his taxes to the Federal, state, and municipal mafias has a right to his aliquot share of the pelf. . . I'll quit my government job when you abolish my taxes. Government, as even George Washington admitted, is not reason; it is not eloquence-- it is force. Escrasez l'infame. Anarchy forever.

[duryeajm2]

You have every right to your aliquot share of what you are forced to pay for anyway.

All you're saying in principle is that the government has the 'right' to steal my money, but that I have no right to drive on a public road, go to a public library, or to get a civil service job.

You are not living off of plunder when its YOUR money which finances government to begin with.

Nota bene: check out Ayn Rand's essay "Tax Credits for Education."

[russiantraitor]

@Michaelbenoit7 It's true that the federal government paid for my college degree, paid me for military service for 4 years and is still paying me in the reserves. However, when I entered into these agreements I was ignorant of the ideas of liberty and the nature of coercive government. Once I became enlightened to these ideas I made a plan to end my association with the military and minimize my involvement with government. I hope to spread these ideas to convince others to do the same.

[Michaelbenoit7]

russiantraitor are you Joe? I take it you are and your Reserve pay is good size from what I remember as they have activated you. I dont think it is at all appropiate to go into the property tax collectors office with a high and mighty approach about your property taxes when you money comes from income taxes stolen off the back of labor. Since you are an anarchist there is no justifying what you do for a living.

[Michaelbenoit7]

I would not criticize you either for complaining about the property taxes if you believed in minimal government were fighting to reduce it to its limited role, but to be against it in all forms and then to live off it is plain and simply wrong.

[Michaelbenoit7]

Why you complain about the property taxes they will take my life and my property from for refusing to be a involuntary slave to pay for the unconstitution act of the miltary you draw money from. Most anarchist wont even serve on juries to save their fellows from the tyranny of government is that you?

[Michaelbenoit7]

remove the hyprocracy and I will support you or at least treat those people you chastised at the tax collectors office with a little humility as you are in their camp accept they dont think they are doing wrong and you know you are.

[russiantraitor]

Wow, Mike, you really want to go down this road? I oppose the principle of taxation, whether its from taxing property, partial slavery (income), production(excise), or voluntary transactions whether foreign or domestic (tarrif or sales tax). YOU choose to condone some of these taxes and object to others depending on whether theyre part of a 200 year old document that neither of us has ever signed or has ever agreed to. I object to the principle of taxation because it is theft -

[russiantraitor]

one party forces the other to give them their money. Look, Mike, were all victims of coercive government, they threaten your life if youre not a partial slave to them (income tax), they threaten my life if I dont pay them rent on the property that I own (property tax) and they threatened the life of farmers during the Whiskey Rebellion circa 1794 (excise tax).

[russiantraitor]

As for the source of my income, all I can do is acknowledge that I am associated with a violent monopoly, I recognize this, am now doing much more work in a voluntary manor (private sector) than I have in the past and by the end of next year will no longer be associated with the military at all. I cant just up and quit immediately as the military is the only job you can be put in jail for quitting before your contract is finished.

[russiantraitor]

But I realize its wrong, Im making plans to stop and am trying to spread these ideas by planning smart acts of civil disobedience, filming it and spreading it through the internet. You on the other hand are trying to run for congress; and what will happen if you are elected and are earning a full-time salary from the same IRS-enforced tax that youve had so many problems with? You call me a hypocrite, yet you want to be part of this organization which terrorizes so many innocent people.

[ninjabunnyman]

ditto. I have worked for the government but I plan to quit.

Thank you for taking your stand.

[ninjabunnyman]

I also do think there is a difference between being the recipient of government money and actually being involved in the collection of such money. Compare the mob muscle, actually involved in burning people's houses down, to the cousin who gets money from the "family" for school.

Yes, he should turn it down -- but it's not morally equivalent.

[askwhatifdotorg]

Dan McAllister:

"It's not an issue for me, it's an issue for you."

"If you don't pay your taxes for five years, we sell your house".

You can't sell something that you don't own, Dan. Please explain how you would acquire lawful ownership of Joe's house, when as he said he has no contract with you. The flimsy "your representatives enacted the tax laws" isn't going to cut it.

Great job guys!

[hotforliberty]

Great points, "Ask".

Thank you!

[russiantraitor]

Awesome!