i've seen guys walk on broken ankles for weeks in ranger school. Saw a guy with his arm blown off, blown off, blown the fuck off get out of his burning truck return fire on the enemy kill 2 insurgent and then drop, due to blood lose. So Fuck you young turks, You can all kiss my mother fucking ass. I would love to lay the beating of your life down on you and half way thru give you a chance to run and see how fast you can move.
So people who believe in Health care can beat people up who don't just to prove they need health care. I think this is TYT argument. I think this is how Stalin and Mao dealt with things before they killed more people then Hitler ! TYT should be sued for misinformation !
Universal Healthcare... is a disaster for the United States... well if you don't consider all the great socialized healthcare programs across europe, even in Canada. I suspect that theoretically you would be acurrate in your assumptions.
@FrankinFingerz If its so grate why is Canada's Healthcare starting to move in the direction of what we have in the US? And why are most of the programs across Europe heading going belly up from no funds?
@FrankinFingerz About 90% of medical advances come out of the US. In Socialized Health-care People literally wait months or years for surgery, not to mention horrible service. There is also mass rationing in every socialized healthcare system. Also if the government wants they can force doctors to move to another location.
It's true that if you're rich, the U.S. has the best health care system in the world. For 95% of our population, that is not the case. Also, I don't know where you're getting your information from, but countries with universal health care have lower infant mortality rates and longer life expectancies than we do. Lastly, the liberals were pushing for would only allow the government to administer cost of health care. It wouldn't be able to interfere with doctors or medicine.
@ThatHaloGuy117 China, Canada, Finland, England, Israel and Russia all have socialized healthcare and it has a majority approval rating for each country.
The percentage of total health expenditure financed by taxation in Finland (78%) The quality of service in Finnish health care, as measured by patient satisfaction, is excellent. 88% of Finnish respondents were satisfied compared with the EU (wikipedia paraphrase)
@ThatHaloGuy117 Socialized healthcare would be cheaper,corporations charging excessive fees and being interested in their own personal gain should not have the responsibility of managing healthcare. Socialized Healthcare would ensure that you are always covered even when you have no money. Next time you are at a doctors office I fucking dare you to ask for a free checkup or free surgery that is what socialized healthcare would allow.
hahah, oh my gosh, i laughed so hard at this one, i cant believe they tried to defame that guy like that, i mean its sad, but i laughed, keep up with these videos, good job
I like how some people in America think countries with universal healthcare are somehow worse off. Waiting in line for "hours or days"? You think they're put in waiting rooms if they've been stabbed and blood is gushing out of their throat? That's powerful ignorance right there. Universal healthcare is the only reasonable way to go. Private coorporations earn more money the less they have to pay you. How hard is that to understand?
@AsifIcarebear3 Dude, you can come over here illegally and get healthcare! Don't worry about our system. It's the best in the world. It just needs to be made more accessible to legal citizens rather than these border jumpers.
@dowder6 The system in USA in nowhere near the best. compared to a country with universal healthcare like Canada child mortality is higher, life expectancy is lower, general happiness about the system is lower. Around 90-95% of people in Denmark are happy with the system.
To be quite honest, I don't think a country should throw anyone out just because they aren't legal citizens. Even if that person hasn't contributed to the country it gets treatment from, he/she shouldn't die. Call me immoral.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Look how they judge infant mortality between countries and find out why ours is higher. Life expectancy? Look at what Americans eat and the studies on them health wise and get back to me. And it doesn't matter how happy people are with the system. Are these systems in the black or in the red? Can they stand on their own? And is the situation getting better or worse?
@LinuxGeek350 For every 1k live children born you measure how many died. So? Your diet plays a role, but the fact that not everybody can afford to receive health care prooobably also has a thing or two to say.
Happiness does matter. Or do you really think a country would be happy with a system that killed them? In civilized countries with healthcare, people are happy because they can go see a doctor and receive any treatment needed; without having to fear their insurance company going after them
@AsifIcarebear3 : I went over your head with the baby mortality rate. Look at other ours and other countries on what is considered a baby mortality and what is a still birth. And no one is restricted health care. I've gone on minimal pay for years with no health insurance and I got plenty of care. Diet plays a MAJOR role in it, don't pass something off because it hurts your ideology.
Happiness doesn't matter if the system collapses... (C)
@LinuxGeek350 When the babies are dying, no matter how, at a higher rate than in other countries, something is amiss.
What happens if you get seriously ill? If you get cancer or such? You're fucked. Diet obviously plays a huge role, but it doesn't cover all babies.
You're assuming the system is about to collapse over here. How funny. Especially when your own country already has, and will be owned by the Chinese in a few years.
@AsifIcarebear3 :Please try to do some research first before posting something like this. I asked you to look into what is considered a baby mortality and what is considered a stillbirth. You still are lost. You think when you add the two together the US still ranks high? Please do some research, but I guess I can help a little. Baby mortality rate isnt higher in the US if you factor in the baby moralities that happen in other countries that are counted off as stillbirths. Again, research please
@LinuxGeek350 Maybe you should provide some sources to your claims. Besides, why should I factor in something the study specifically mentions isn't relevant to it?
@AsifIcarebear3 : You made the claim, maybe you should learn to look deeper into things instead of just agreeing with any study that fits your side. I'll try to find something if you insist on accepting whatever is given to you. And it is reliant. You made a claim that our healthcare is bad because of our infancy mortality rate, and I pointed you in a little fact that many who make this claim never seem to look into.
@LinuxGeek350 Infant mortality rate was just a small part of my argument. Besides, if you just think about it you'll realise that tax-funded healthcare is in fact the way to go. USA will eventually adopt it as well, but it'll take some time for you guys to come to your senses. I don't even have to argue against you, because there's no reasonable doubt I'm right.
@AsifIcarebear3 : You made the argument, I showed how flawed it was, so again you dodge it. Btw the argument style of "Im right you're wrong!" is a little childish. You say its the way to go without really building any sort of case for it, I have built a case and you ran from it.
@LinuxGeek350 You haven't built anything. You haven't even tried arguing against me. You just said "your country is in dept" without even knowing how my country is run. It's hard not saying I'm right and you're wrong, because that's the case. You tax people a lot, and those who can afford it more - the wealthy, obviously - and everyone in society benefits. No one is held back. In fact, those with brains and will power are propped up, because they don't have to take huge loans to go to school.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Excuse me? Please go back and reread my posts. I built a case for the problems with our current system and the direction it needs to go, you ignored it. You aren't even being honest with what I am saying! Everything you just claimed I am talking about is factually wrong. I think you have me confused with someone else you are arguing with, because you definitely aren't referring to me.
@AsifIcarebear3 : The original argument? I explained what was wrong with our system, and the reason it got that way. You did read my early posts didn't you?
@LinuxGeek350 I haven't bothered reading any posts not directed to me, because I had no real reason.
If you'd bothered with reading my posts you'd see that I already answered your question regarding my country's financial state; no one is going haywire or losing their minds over our massive deficit, so I'll assume we aren't owing anyone half our country. If that's not good enough for you, go google the shit out of denmark.
@AsifIcarebear3 (C) you really don't know what is wrong with our current system do you? You have to have a system that is bearable yes, but one that can stand on its own. Let me ask you. Can you use your car insurance to get an oil change? Or a broken head light? No. It handles emergencies only. You don't buy fire insurance when your house is on fire right? No, because no system could survive something like that. Thats what medical insurance has become. (c)
@LinuxGeek350 Exactly, that's what medical insurance has become; something that denies treatment to those with pre-existing conditions. They die. They die because they were poor. In civilized countries people who need help receive it. How is that wrong? We've put up a system that helps people who need medical care; something your country lacks.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Yeah my post went way over your head... You ignored what I said was the problem with your system, AND ignored everything I said about what was wrong with our system. Please reread what I said and take some time to think about it before coming back to me. Maybe then your response will actually be on topic and hold more water.
@LinuxGeek350 I ignored what you assumed about my system because it's wrong. Pretty damn simple, but I guess you can't expect too much from someone who thinks private healthcare is the way to go.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Then show they are in the black and not in the red. If its just an assumption and not true, then back it up. I asked you from the beginning the status of them, if they are in the red or black, and you've dodged the question again and again, so I'll ask it again. whats the economic situation of these programs. Are they in the black or red?
@LinuxGeek350 I haven't tried dodging anything. I'm not quite sure where the programs are, but my country isn't in massive dept. No one is going batshit insane about universal healthcare throwing us into peril. Last time I checked my country had almost no dept whatsoever. Besides, when you tax people a lot, you'll afford to give a lot; in this case education and healthcare.
@AsifIcarebear3 (C) once insurance started covering basic care, people no longer saw the cost from one doctor to the next, which destroyed competition. What happens to prices when the buyers cant see them? Thats right class, they go up. You think hiding the cost even further is going to help our medical situation? Wrong. And if you think the other countries care is so wonderful, why are they all falling deeper and deeper into debt?
@LinuxGeek350 You think those insurance companies won't rip you to tiny itty bitty shreds if they could squeeze a few extra dollars out of you, because you had the flu 20 years ago, meaning you yourself were responsible for your cancer now? (If you take this analogy literally you're a moron, just so we don't have to go through that.) If we're falling into dept it's because of the economical environment. Not because we don't shit on the poor. We have high(er) taxes, and in return receive tons.
@LinuxGeek350 When the doctors are hired by the state, and therefore get a set pay, prices won't go up. Hospitals aren't private institutions payed for by the government, you know. They're owned and run by the government. Of course, in your third world country they're not, meaning the little man gets ripped off completely. Don't even think about saying this results in bad doctors; medical school will always be very popular, meaning only the top students are accepted.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Oh how little you know about economics... I'll save my response till you give me the financial situation of the health care systems that you love so much. Then we can talk.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Besides. I'd tone the insults down a bit on the US, me, and what I believe. You insult my views but offer nothing that shows me you even understand it or the problems you believe it has. If you don't agree, then we can debate civilly. But insulting it before even attempting to debate it shows me you don't really want answers or understand the truth, you just want to push what you believe and dismiss any opposing views.
@LinuxGeek350 It's hard to take the viewpoint of privatized healthcare seriously, and therefore hard to take an argument about it seriously; because it's not the best way to go. When medicare isn't available to anyone and everyone who needs it, your system has problems. This is currently the case in the USA, and not in civilized countries.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Then build a case against my proposal! You cant just dodge the statement by saying it cant be taken seriously! Tell me how it will fail. Your argument is flawed because everyone has access to health care, even without insurance. I have gone for years without it and had major and minor care given to me. I broke it up into payment plans and paid them off in time (Long time). When I got more I added them together and paid them off gradually. (C)
@LinuxGeek350 You haven't even made a proposal, what's there to shred? The system in the USA is flawed because people end up paying much more for their care than if it was simply run by the government. If you paid for it through taxes, and doctors were hired by the government, the required pay for a certain procedure would be lower, since no huge company needs to pay hundreds of thousands dollars worth of bonuses to their executives.
@AsifIcarebear3 : This is why its so difficult to take you seriously. My proposal went so far over your head its laughable. What thousands of dollars in bonus's? What are you debating against? My proposal the money goes simply to the doctors... Again. REREAD my posts! You clearly don't understand them. And how can cost go up when you go back to true competition? You're arguing with the system thats in place now, not my proposal. Focus on that.
@LinuxGeek350 When you let the money go directly to the doctors, people won't be able to pay up, because treatments cost so much. This means insurance companies and therefore a huge added cost to the price of treatment, because that company needs to profit. If you want the money to go to doctors without any middle man at all, people won't be able to pay without getting in massive dept.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Excuse me. You still can't get my proposal right. This is getting embarrassing... I mean look at it from my side. I build a logical case for my side, you ignore it and continue to say your side. I point that out and you say my points cant be taken seriously, without giving any sort of counter case. Then when I challenge you, you can't even seem to understand what I proposed and the workings of it. Please take your time and try to understand my case before posting...
@LinuxGeek350 So before you regurgitate more useless "rawr you're not getting it rawr" shit, why don't you try and explain it from start to finish, since this lowly peasant apparently cannot fathom your awe inspiring and amazingly keen intelligent argument for how healthcare management should be handled.
If you spam more "you're not understanding rawr" we will never get beyond this petty little stage that you seemingly want to be on so badly. Give me your argument and reasoning or piss off.
@AsifIcarebear3 : I have given you the entire explanation from start to finish and summarized it two more times. But lets go into where you was mistaken shall we? People wont be able to pay up if money goes directly to the doctor? Apparently you didn't listen when I told you how cost got completely out of control. To summarize it started when people started pushing insurance for basic health care. Basic health care cost was not out of control long ago. (C)
@AsifIcarebear3 : People paid for medicine as well, and if costs were too high, you would go to a doctor whoms cost you could afford. Was it always perfect? No. However we have technology now that helps us create payment plans and help, as well as so many charity programs to help people in need. What insurance was for was something you would pay into in case a massive emergency happened, like every other insurance program in existence. (C)
@AsifIcarebear3 : However it eventually got screwed up when people decided to put basic care in the insurance program. Oh it sounded good at first and worked for awhile, but it was unstable. It hid the cost from people and the cost of each section. And that will always cause cost to go up, because you also have no competition. So your argument that they couldn't afford it shows me you ether don't understand what I'm telling you or don't understand free markets. (C)
@LinuxGeek350 In short, your proposal is silly. You cannot rely on competition to lower prices of all treatments; some will always be waaay above what the little man with the bad job, or no job at all, can handle. With my system we all get treatment. The wealthy have to pay a little more in taxes, but it's cool, because at the end of the day they're still wealthy.
By the way, it's amusing how angry you get over my inability to read your mind. You never explained anything. You just raged. Funny.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Again, nothing but rhetoric. I'm not really angry, this is kinda amusing. You offered no real objections, only showing that you have no idea how economics work. You cant tell me the financial status of your countries health care. You can only parrot what you've been taught, with no real mind of your own. I'm going to have to call check mate on this, because you've shown no ability to think outside of your little box. Its kind of a shame, I was hoping for more out of you.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Though I should post again, because you wont understand what I just stated, so I'll have to spell it out for you. You ignored the fact we have payment plans. That anyone can get health care right now. I did for years off minimum wage and. NO HEALTH INSURANCE. You cant/wont give me the financial situation of your country because if it is like you propose, it is unsustainable. That is a hard reality for people like you to admit. Its been shown and is being shown today.
@AsifIcarebear3 : I mean you have no answers. Just put it all to the government and taxes magically fixes the problem. This only makes it worse. You propose we add massive amounts of people, creating more demand. Then force the markets at a certain price. You realize how complicated the health care system is? You realize how much cost control you have to do? Markets change, you cant control cost like that. You only make the problem worse. Thats why I asked you if they are in the black or red.(C)
@AsifIcarebear3 (C) because they are in the red, usually deep red. And getting worse each year. Free markets used wisely had produced the fastest growth in a country in history, and its the reason why most countries that have gone away from free markets long ago are suddenly turning back to them. Government cant artificially control a market, at least not for a long period of time. Look at the countries now that have tried. And before you jump all over the US, (C)
@LinuxGeek350 No point trying to convince you of anything else. I too am deeply disappointed in you. I really thought you'd at least try to put forth a decent solution instead of this sad pseudo intellectual excuse for an alternative. You apparently aren't even able to read; it's pretty damn difficult to convince of, or even just convey anything to you. Oh well, you'll be fine. Unless you lose your job and get sick, of course. Then you're freaking dead.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Wow.. projectionism anyone? You've given no solutions at all except government health care. You cant give any real financial information on why this is a sound solution. I have given you a plan, a direction to go, a reason for that direction, how it can work financially. I have taken time to give you information filled responses, only to be met with half assed posts of you laughing and childish responses. Come back when you grow up a little and learn something about economics
@LinuxGeek350 No no no, you haven't given me anything. You've basically given me a sentence; pay directly to the doctors, and then explained why insurance got to the point it is today. It won't "work", because people won't be able to receive sufficient healthcare. But of course, you've just pole-vaulted right over that. Some people have no jobs, no money to pay with, nothing. I've tried debating with you, but you've consistently just spurted out "you don't get it lol" without saying much else.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Excuse me? Look at my post after post! I've given a heck of a lot more than a once sentence response. Its called detail and explanations, but apparently you skimmed my posts. I have said you dont understand on many occasions because you dont seem to be listening at all to my posts, but just give me half assed responses that fail, and then i go into how they fail and yet you still repeat it. And I havent gone "lol" that would be you my friend. Stop giving me empty statements.
@AsifIcarebear3 (C) we have not been a free country for a long long time. The government control you love has taken this country and put it in the hole. This is a historic fact that every time these types of spending practices are tried, they have resulted in collapse. Its been true for the US and other countries. What you propose is the same failed strategy that is bankrupting most countries to date. Show me otherwise
@LinuxGeek350 You're calling check mate? I think I might get a seizure from laughing too hard. Good thing I won't have to pay a single dime for that. But before you triumphantly knock down any imaginary chess pieces maybe you yourself should do what you're telling me to do. Read my freaking posts. If you're poor or without any money whatsoever it won't matter how efficient or long-term your payment plans are. You're basically trying to say my round shape is a square.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Please take an economics class. So far you've shown nothing of intelligence on the subject. And in case you've already forgotten.. IVE BEEN IN THAT SITUATION FOR YEARS! I was paying long after I finally got some small insurance, but I paid a small amount. Thats with the huge prices we have atm because of what I've been telling you all this time. I've read everything you said and its empty. You cant even combat one thing I've said effectively.
@LinuxGeek350 It's easy to combat what you say, because it's void of any strength. The hard part is to convince you I just explained to you why you're so incredibly wrong.
@AsifIcarebear3 : If its so easy, then why haven't you combated anything I've said correctly? I give you reasons and examples of why your half assed responses fail to understand reality and economics. And all I get is another half assed response like this one. Seriously, what grade are you in?
@LinuxGeek350 As I've said, refuting your silly proposition is easy. Making your realise what you're suggesting won't work is hard, for whatever reason.
@AsifIcarebear3 : I mean seriously. Its like this. I give a massive response explaining my idea, and get met with a "They cant afford it." response. So I go into why they can, and get met with a "No they cant afford it" response... So I explain more. and get a "Raise taxes and control prices" response. I explain in detail why that idea will fail and get a "No you're wrong" response... Seriously? And you act like you somehow have some sort of intellectuality superiority?
@LinuxGeek350 I'm not saying people can't afford it - "they" obviously can today. I'm saying some people who are poor or in massive debt already have no chance. If you owe hundreds of thousands of dollars, without any bright light at the end of the tunnel, you're fucked. You have yet to explain how such people can receive treatment.
By the way, your explanations can be condensed to "they pay over a long period". How can I not claim every conceivable superiority over anyone claiming this?
@AsifIcarebear3 : Have you ever been poor? I have. I have had thousands in debt. I have had little to no income to speak of. I worked myself out of it gradually. I am still there for the most part, but I never thought to go after government handouts. I have been there. Thats the problem with this argument. You speak of these things as far off "little people". When I speak to this from experience.
@LinuxGeek350 And you're acting as if "if I can do it, everyone can!" is a decent argument. Explain to me how someone who has no education in a country with no jobs is going to be able to pay - even in the long term - for a procedure that could cost $200k. Don't say competition will solve it, unless you want old women with no concept of hygiene and a rusty old kitchen knife performing surgery on poor people because some treatments are simply too expensive.
@AsifIcarebear3 : competition will help lower the cost, and seeing the cost first hand will also help. Look at the things in this country and how they've gotten cheeper and better. Its because companies are constantly on the lookout at how to improve their product. And this works its way up to each level. Its only when the costs are hidden to prices go upward like they have. Ok now to get to your question. The answer is hard work. Everyone has an opportunity for education in this country. (C)
@AsifIcarebear3 : Learn a little about innovation and changing procedures. Computers used to be the size of a room. They got better but still were slow for some time. No one could see how they could amount to anything more. Until a company found a way to make silicon chips. And changed the shape of computers forever. This is something government has never been able to help, because it cant adapt like a business can. You know how slow governments are when it comes to change.
@LinuxGeek350 Furthermore, concerning education, if your family is only just able to put food on the table education isn't within arm's reach, which is why education should be free - so that you can tap into the brains of the poor part of society.
The government isn't completely unable to pump money into research or hire private companies to invent stuff. Not every single thing has to be privatized in order to prosper.
@AsifIcarebear3 : I somewhat agree with your last statement. Not everything has to be privatized. But it makes sense to in a lot more places than you think. But as far as education. My parents couldn't afford education at all. I did go to college using full financial aid. And am still paying them off. You seem to overlook simple answers to these problems.
And I didn't say government was completely unable to handle it, but just look at their track record. Its embarrassing. and always will be.
@LinuxGeek350 Wouldn't it be better if you could go to school, get your education, and immediately start making tons of money - and therefore be able to pay more in taxes? And spend more money, creating jobs? It might be a simple answer, but it's a simple answer that means "the man" has you by the balls before you even set foot on the market. Furthermore, if you can't get a job, that debt won't exactly help you get by. Paying for such things through tax makes way more sense.
@AsifIcarebear3 : What if answers don't fit too well with reality. I could sit and ask for the government to pay for everything for me, or to give me everything I want in life. But I don't. A few things you probably should know. I could easily have my loans reduced, and get a monthly check from the government. I have enough disabilities to live pretty decently without doing any work. Yet I refuse. I dont want that kind of life, Dependant on the government for my well being. Thats not America.
@LinuxGeek350 Okay? Fact of the matter is that the charity you mentioned earlier should be made mandatory so that you're sure that the money are there when you need them. The next step is to extend the base of society that can have access to this "charity" - which they pay to themselves their entire lives, by the way, possibly saving the life of a loved one.
It's not something you just get from the government. Free education means a well educated society. Education breeds prosperity.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Many problems with this. Whats made charities so effective is when they are free. Many millionaires give to them and many people volunteer in them to help. You put government into them, they become like every other failed government organization. When you take away the incentive, you lose the will. Another thing is you try to push people to not get into these situations, trying to keep the base level at a minimal. People who have safety nets in plane sight make more mistakes(C)
@LinuxGeek350 A safety net is like a fish? No, the knowledge that you won't have to rely on the generosity of rich people is not something that will just make people slack off. People are greedy, and they want more than simply getting by, if they can help it. I highly, highly doubt any significant amount of people will think "no need to work hard and become rich because I've got healthcare all covered". No one has that mentality in my country; we all want to be doctors.
@AsifIcarebear3 : That doesn't mean the safety nets are there, but if you keep handing people fishes, they will never learn to fish for themselves. Charities accomplish this. They help those that truely need it without making it a right or a mandate. This helps keep people from relying on it too heavily. Some still will, but far less. Now for the education part. I got education and I respected it, why? Because I paid for it. I worked hard, knowing I was on my own dime, not the governments.
@LinuxGeek350 You might respect it more, so what? If you have a huge amount of people who aren't able to go to school because their family is poor, they're unable to raise the money themselves or simply to avoid having to get enormous debt you're keeping society uneducated. When its tax-funded more people choose to go to school, meaning more scientists, more businesses, more money in the public and therefore more spending and job creating. Some genius might be working at McD because he's poor.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Everyone has a choice. I was poor but I got into school. You quickly push that aside saying some dont want to get into big debt. Well then they made their choice. What we need is those with drive to be educated and push forward, not swamp the schools with people who are getting a free ride. I already said I focused much more on college than highschool because I knew it was my money I was using. That genius working at McD wouldnt be there if he had the drive to go for it. (C)
@LinuxGeek350 You're saying it's perfectly fine that people are thrown into massive debt because they want an education? What if their education doesn't necessarily yield tons of profit, so that they can only barely get by for decades? This stuff is happening. If you paid for it through taxes you'd be without debt. How is that bad? You say we filter out those without drive. Do you think they'd have any less drive if it was tax-funded? With free education you have a much bigger pool of people...
@AsifIcarebear3 : You missed the point. Those that have drive will get in reguardless, because they have the will to do it. But increasing the "pool" as you say means youll have much more without drive involved, lessening the education of those that do. You require more teachers and thus spend more and more, meaning taxes will have to continue to go up.
As for the first question, yes. Because the risk means they will be much more careful in jumping into a profession in if they (C)
@AsifIcarebear3 Know there will be consequences for their actions. And you keep painting a grim picture on it. Though everyone I know that went into college and built up debt has survived. Some became very sucessful and others struggled, but all were bettered because of it. Look life happens, life is hard. Why must you believe you have to get the government involved in anything thats "hard"? We cant accommodate the lazy at the expense of the driven. The answer is already in your argument.
@LinuxGeek350 All were bettered because they had a negative worth for many, many years after being done with their education? Sounds silly. Just buy way too big a house if that's how you feel.
How is a country that wants its society to be well educated accommodating the lazy? Come on. Some simply have to not choose education because of that.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Because believe it or not, many dont want to be educated. We all have opportunities in this country to be educated and make lives better for ourselves. Like I said the most brilliant minds in the world usually had no education, in fact our school systems ended up bringing them down to the point many dropped out. Many of the top business men didn't even go to college of even dropped out of highschool. Think of it this way. (C)
@LinuxGeek350 I think you'll find that most brilliant minds went to some sort of university. Lower level education means nothing, but you won't become a physicist by not educating yourself. There's a difference between skills acquired by experience, such as business-oriented ones, and knowledge based on other people's findings, such as physics, maths, biology, technology and what have you.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Actually... no. Did you not hear what I said? Most brilliant minds ether never went to college or didn't even go to highschool. Kinda like the fact that Michael Jordan was kicked off his basketball team in school. I have looked into many important figures and their life's stories. Its amazing to study. You should try it, you might learn a lot like I did.
@LinuxGeek350 So what are you saying, education doesn't work? Michael Jordan played basketball man, you don't need a ton of education for that. But show me a guy who built a satellite or a rocket without going to school for it. All the technology you're looking at right now; made by people who went to school. Perhaps sold and traded by people who didn't, but you wouldn't be using all of this had it not been for some people's education. What a weird thing to say.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Strange how you came to that conclusion, but I do where you could see that in my posts. I probably focused that point a bit much. My focus though is on drive. Those who want to push themselves will, but those that dont, wont. You can give everyone a free ride all you want, but its not going to create more educated people. Like in my last post I mentioned how many of us in my school had to fend for ourselves because the professors had to take too much time on those that (C)
@LinuxGeek350 Yes, it will create much more educated people. Some of my friends are going to study microbiology, meaning they might invent something very revolutionary. If it hadn't been free, they might've just worked some lowly job. Drive is obviously very good, but sometimes simple opportunity can create the same effect. Besides, it's not exactly a "free ride" when we just pay for it through taxes over the course of many years, interest-free.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Its like talking to a brick wall here. If you're friends are driven enough to create some breakthrough, they would get the education regardless of the hurdles. Drive creates opportunity, but opportunity does not create drive. Its like the guy that has the most expensive guitar equipment out there, but cannot play worth anything. Yet you have someone who worked hard for a small used guitar and creates beautiful music.
@LinuxGeek350 But what if you have two guitarists who worked hard to get there, and you may get one hit. But if you have 10 guitarists, you might get three.
Opportunity can easily create drive. My friend loves his education, and just might make it big. If it had been with a price tag of $200k or whatever, he wouldn't have even considered it.
@AsifIcarebear3 : wasn't cut out to be programmers. In a perfect world, we all could get free everything and it would all be rainbows and sunshine. But in the real world, these things cost money. And the more and more programs you burden on the average taxpayer, the less and less the country has to survive. As I said, study whats going on in the world right now. Everything is falling apart.
@LinuxGeek350 Why does the country have less and less to survive? If the tax is set low, yes. But it's not - it's somewhat high. Many people are cool with that, however, because they got their sweet jobs for "free" and can therefore earn a lot now. When I become a lawyer I'll gladly pay maybe 60% in taxes knowing that my country provided me with education and the knowledge I wouldn't have loan tons of money to get said education and healthcare.
@AsifIcarebear3 : But its not a lot. Taxpayers are barely making due around the world now. You miss the point here anyway. If I get everything handed to me, where is the drive to get it? Like I said in the last post, Opportunity doesn't create drive, but drive creates Opportunity. The US became the strongest country in the world when it lived by these principals. If no one can truely get ahead, then where is the push to go? If most of my money gets taxed away so someone who works about 10% (C)
@LinuxGeek350 I have tons of drive to become a lawyer. I might not have wanted to try if it hadn't been free right now.
Don't think I'm arguing for communism. While it's a beautiful thought, people are too selfish. However, a percentage of 60% means my family, my friends, my children and their children will receive health and education when need be.
People won't lack drive, by the way. We're greedy. We want to succeed and not just get by.
@AsifIcarebear3 : You just defeated your entire argument. How can someone have drive is most of their wealth is taken away? You think its going to stop at 60%? Tell me when a government that had so much "invested" in these types of programs didn't eventually climb. Eventually it will become 62. 64. 65, 70. Whens it going to be enough? The "Rich" in the US already pay more than 50% of their taxes. If you cant succeed, you lose your drive.
@LinuxGeek350 Why should it increase? It certainly hasn't where I live. You still have incentive to succeed, because you're greedy. You want to earn a lot. And if you have to settle for 5 cars instead of 6, I think you'll just be able to survive. That whole argument is pretty weak. You think people would just go "fuck it" if everyone had to pay 60% of their taxes? No, because we want more than our neighbour. It's how man rolls.
@AsifIcarebear3 : you live an extremely sheltered life my friend. 5 cars instead of 6? I'm barely affording the one I have. And I worked damn hard to get it. Costs always go up, thats the way the world has been. You want to succeed more than your neighbour. How can you when all you earn is taxed away? If you are naive enough to believe that it will just stay at 60%, then obviously there is little I can do for you my friend. I'll wait till you get a bit more experience in the world.
@LinuxGeek350 Yeah, those 6 cars were ooobviously aimed at the normal guy. No! We were talking rich people people. Can you honestly say that you'd just lay back and accept less money ´to obtain stuff if your tax was at 60%? I'd want to work hard, because I want sweet items and trinkets.
Why would the tax increase? It hasn't. Most certainly not at the levels you're proclaiming.
@AsifIcarebear3 : What makes your system so special? How is it you succeeded where everyone else has failed all throughout history? The truth is these systems take time to build. You sometimes experience bliss for a season, then it falls quickly like all have before. Governments can only control costs for so long before the world eats them up. Costs dont just go up because of greed, they increase because of need. Its like putting up a damn to cover to stop a waterfall. (C)
@LinuxGeek350 "everyone else has failed"? What are you talking about? The idea of taxing the people in order to provide for them with universal healthcare and education isn't some weird fringe idea that only a few freak countries have attempted and failed miserably at.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Never said it was. My statement still stands. Most countries have tried something similar and they have failed, in the process of failing, or are still in the early stages (that can last artificially for many years) You simply cannot control every part of the market successfully and not expect it to crash in time. Markets change. Simple things like roads are possible because there isn't too many changing parts, and can be put off in time. Health care is far too complex.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Sure for awhile you can keep the water under control, but as it grows, eventually its going to bust and flood the entire area. The world and markets are too complicated for a selective few to handle and understand, they can only be controlled successfully when everyone has some control over it. You put a government in control of all cost, one that could not even handle a normal business, how can you possibly think its going to end well? You can believe what you want. (C)
@AsifIcarebear3 : You have given me test after test, question after question of things you thought were unsolvable by free markets, and I have answered every one of them with real world examples and experience. At some point you have to stop and at least agree my solutions make sense, even if you dont agree with them. Early on in this argument, you treated me as though I was clueless and mocked my ideas. But in time I have shown you that these solutions are not doom and gloom. (C)
@AsifIcarebear3 : My goal is not to change you right here and now. But to at least show you that there are answers, that free markets and the rights ideas are not so skaterbrained. If you at least remember 10% of what I told you, then I was a success. Because when your world comes crashing down, you may be one of the few that jumps ship before it all falls apart. I dont think the US is going to fall just yet to this pie in the sky ideas, but it eventually will. (C)
@AsifIcarebear3 : All I can do is hope for the best and try and explain to those that have been tempted under these lies. Do I think your ideas are nuts and absurd? Of course not. In a perfect world they would be ideal. But it isn't a perfect world, its a cruel world at times. Just to go back to what we was talking about before for a sec. Hardships make people stronger. I wouldnt be the man I am today without hardships. My fiancée wouldn't be the amazingly strong woman she is if (C)
@AsifIcarebear3 : wasnt given hardships that both me and you could never understand, even in our worst nightmares. Getting a free ride makes people soft. Do you know how to tame a pet? You dont break them and punish them, you feed them, coddle them. Eventually they're life becomes in your hand, and they need you. People are being tamed gradually. Pain and hardship taken away, turning them into subjects, sheep. Not people. USA wasnt built by people that had everything (C)
@LinuxGeek350 and remember that I was indeed correct. When you provide a nation with free education, you prop up those on the bottom who have the brains and willpower to succeed, without plunging them into massive, massive debts making the wealthy just a wee bit wealthier.
You can try and argue that my circle is a square all you want. Doesn't make it any less round. It fits through all the round holes. Once your triangle gains a few more corners you might realise your mistakes.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Nice revision of history there, you only claimed you was correct, but couldn't make a single point that I couldn't successfully counter. I pulled back a bit because the argument has now gone into "Its going to go past 60%" "No its not" back and forth. I keep trying to point you in the right direction but you dig your heals in and keep fighting, so the argument will only circle. But if you cant even admit that I withstood each and every question/trap you put on me (C)
@LinuxGeek350 You haven't made an argument why the tax would ever explode above those 60%, you just zealously claimed it. It hasn't where I live for many years, so why should I believe your silly claim?
@AsifIcarebear3 : (C) with logical and sane explanations, then it would seem I expected too much. I'm not asking you to agree with me, but to at least acknowledge that my side and points do in fact make sense. You can use the square and circle analogy all you want but you have nothing to back it up with, just opinions you was taught probably most of your life. My arguments are formed from history and basic economics.
@LinuxGeek350 There are several questions you haven't answered at all of sufficiently. Why do you keep insisting on trying to argue against communism? I've said about three times now that I don't want the government to control the entire market, because that's more or less impossible in the globalised world we live in. If you want to talk indoctrination, look at yourself and how you're trying to defend a system that's crumbling before your eyes; one that plummets people into debt for education.
@LinuxGeek350 If you're so into hardships Africa must be a super awesome place. Getting limbs chopped off every now and then, getting raped and killed. Hardship breeds strong people, doesn't it, so we can expect the best businessmen coming from there any second now.
History has shown that uncontrolled free market capitalism creates a super elite of society, certainly not equal opportunity for all.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Are you seriously trying to make that an argument? You cant even get it correct. Africa will indeed produce strong individuals, those that survive. But you seem to jump from strength to business men, what kind of argument is that? Notice the strongest Christians in the world and in history were from places where Christians were murdered and killed for their faith. I mean come on, are you really trying to disappoint me this much? Now lets get into your next statement. (C)
@LinuxGeek350 Oh, so you're saying that the resistance an African man encounters only breeds physical strength? You said that hardship brings forth strength. That should mean that in one of the worst areas imaginable we should see some killer results.
@AsifIcarebear3 : We do. Have you ever spoken with a Holocaust surviver? A person who made it through the great depression? A Christian man that survived in countries where you are killed for having even a bible? You will not find stronger people than those. Have you ever spent time with a handicap person? I have, and live with one. And let me tell you, you know nothing of strength until you see someone whose been and survived great hardships. I dont know where you are trying to go with this.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Capitalism creates super elite of society? What does that even mean? You mean people that work their ways up out of the class they was in and move up the ladder? I mean your statement sounds cute and all, but what does it even mean? That some rise up and create businesses while others work for those businesses? Giving to charities to help those at the bottom. I mean thats how it works, that show the US went from nothing to top in speed never seen before.
@LinuxGeek350 When you have a total free market capitalistic system you succeed in creating one thing; a super elite. Those who once fought themselves to the top have now been there for years and years, because everyone else are held down. Look at Rome. Or look at the USA. If you're a poor man in a poor neighbourhood, you aren't exactly going to Harvard any time soon. The wealthy owns everything. An indirect consequence of this is corruptions - bought politicians.
@AsifIcarebear3 : I think you need to see the movie blind side. You sadly have a misguided view of the US. I never went to harvard but let me tell you, you will be hard pressed to find a more creative and flexible programmer. I am doing well for myself so far. I have already gotten to a place my parents only dreamed of. Despite my handicaps. I've been on the bottom. I think you need to learn to question things you hear a bit more, because you are sadly misinformed.
@LinuxGeek350 Assuming you're somewhat educated, do you think that you'd never gone to where you are now, if you didn't hadn't to borrow tons of money in order get there? The fact that you suggest or support ribbing people off for them to get a shot a the good life seems so self-backstabbing. I've read your argument several times now, but would you really only accept that someone has education and hence a good job if they're facing massive debts?
@AsifIcarebear3 : Im well educated because I worked hard for it. I borrowed money to get where I am. Many have managed to get through college without spending a dime, but worked their entire way through it and have become very rich because of what they learned outside of the classrooms. You have no argument here, you just say its unfair, which is the way the world is. How is it not fair that I work hard and pay for MY education, but its fair to make everyone else pay for MY education?
@LinuxGeek350 You're paying for your own education down the line, because you become a tax payer; one that may very well end up paying much more in taxes because of said education. The difference is that you don't have to pay tons of interests to some bank and that you're helping the youth that doesn't necessarily have wealthy parents. Whichever way you slice or dice it, paying for education is a good thing. It creates an educated society, if it's funded well enough.
@AsifIcarebear3 : I noticed you seemed to have run from your argument against me on how hardships make strength. The reason I bring this up is because it all ties together. Just like what I said about the kids who's parents bought them cars verses the people who bought their own cars. Look who gets the mosts accidents, the ones that got a free ride. Those that pay for their own education work harder for it. Those that take a risk take more time making sure they make the right decision (C)
@LinuxGeek350 Run from your argument? Don't flatter yourself. Say you're right and people who pay for their own education values it more. What good does that do when only a tiny part of the country actually does educate itself? Then you have a massive, overwhelming majority of ignorant (not necessarily stupid) people who draw conclusions such as "evolution isn't true because the apes are still here". Tax-funded education leads to a much more well-educated country. Is that bad?
@AsifIcarebear3 : micahporter.blogspot.com/2011/03/health-care.html (You will probably have to copy and paste this into notepad and remove special characters) Here is a little response to you that was far too big for a youtube post. Enjoy
@LinuxGeek350 I think you're putting too much faith in wealthy people and their desire to give to charity. Sure, some people do, but I somehow doubt that when your greed has put you on the top you'd suddenly start giving to those in need. That seemingly hasn't quite been the case in the USA - or can you give me figures of how much those huge corporations, or their CEOs, give to charity?
@AsifIcarebear3 Well well well, interesting proposal. Lets start out by stating that most of the successful industries have created their OWN charioty programs, besides giving. Like Microsoft, Mcdonalds. But lets look here. wwwDOTamerica.gov/st/washfile-english/2007/June/200706261522251CJsamohT0.8012354.html (Change wwwDOT to an actual . And use notepad to remove any hidden characters youtube puts in.) Notice the amount? (C)
@LinuxGeek350 How would I be able to recognize what characters youtube puts in? Your link is broken. Besides, I really don't see the huge difference between higher taxation and charity. The difference is choice, but I see too many problems with it. That the flow can suddenly stop if big contributor merges with another that has another policy, that the charity program gets cut during a financial crisis and that there is too little money to deal with.
@AsifIcarebear3 : The link is not broken. Post a link on here and see if you can then click on it, youll find the same problem. If its too difficult for you to copy and paste into notepad and remove special characters that appear, then just type it out manually! by the way look at my blog post earlier, it explains a ton of things about all this. But the problem IS lack of choice. There is no, and has been no, problems with Charities, they have stood the test of time. (C)
@AsifIcarebear3 : Try posting a link on youtube then clicking on it. You don't seem to understand this... Youtube adds hidden characters in their post for security reasons. Look don't worry about that link, its hardly important. Did you look at my blog post? Its much easier to type that in manually if you have to. I am a computer programmer, I know a little about computers here :P I am trying to help you here.
@LinuxGeek350 Look, I copy/pasted your link, removed the "DOT" and spaces, and hammered Enter. Post wasn't found on the site. How can I know what characters in your link are bad? Links aren't exactly known for only using lower case letters. I'm trying to help you here.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Help me how? I know how this works and you do not. I explained what they do, and how to fix it and you act like I am somehow in the wrong here. Its been like this with every debate we've had. Look. type this in for my blog post. micahporter.blogspot.com, don't copy and paste it. write it down character by character. then look for the latest of the two posts. Its that simple. I tried to explain how to do it with copy and paste, but you don't understand. So just do this.
@LinuxGeek350 Help you understand what you're making me do. You asked me to copy the link, remove the "DOT" and any "false characters" in the link. How am I supposed to know which characters are false? I've said this many times now. This part of our discussion is seriously becoming absurdly silly and boring. Your posted link didn't work, even with your directions, and that's it.
By the way, you haven't linked me your blog before just now.
@AsifIcarebear3 : I have above, but you might of missed it. Again youtubes forum system is horrible at times and its easy to overlook things. If you want to know where the hidden characters are. paste it in notepad. look at the two links. the one in youtube and the one in notepad, and find weird characters that dont exist in the youtube link. Its annoying I agree, but thats youtube for you. I hope you take time reading my post, I did my best for you.
@LinuxGeek350 You need to link me that chart of charity again to be honest. It seems peculiar that charity solely focussed on helping the needy would be able to help anyone of very low income, especially when I've seen so many people get rejected and not get proper treatment. I've seen and read much about this topic, and come across a lot of people who were unable to pay their medical bills. There's a reason why the USA can make movies about people robbing banks to pay for "that big surgery".
@AsifIcarebear3 : They are given to people that care and use the money wisely, which laws protecting from corruption. The government has interests in politics and politics alone, its all about power. They care more about politics than helping others, and that has been shown again and again. And there is no checks or balances to government, and if they blow all the money, and are in the deep red, they can just keep going with other peoples money.
@LinuxGeek350 You have corrupt politicians partly because you allow lobbying. That doesn't mean a government is a bad thing, that just means the people needs to wake up and start electing some smart men and women on their political views and intelligence rather than how much they believe in God or how much money they can spend on campaigning. But that's a different discussion altogether.
@LinuxGeek350 What if this charity organisation has a bias against gays or blacks or people who aren't Christian and therefore refuses giving any help to them? They can feasibly do this because they aren't obligated by law to give help to anyone.
No matter what you say, this private sector charity instead of taxation is unnecessary if you have a decent government. It has worked for Scandinavian countries for many, many years now.
@AsifIcarebear3 : Then dont give to that charity, thats how simple it is. Each charity is by law supposed to give records of all they do, governments are not. If you don't agree with one, give to another! How hard is that to understand?
So you ignore the corruption that I just gave by pretending it doesn't exist and its just better than charities. So far your reasons against charities is incredibly weak and false.
@LinuxGeek350 But what if the general consensus is that gays and blacks don't deserve charity, and only those biased organisations are well-funded? In an overly Christian country like USA I can easily see an organisation that wouldn't help women that had abortions, gays or perhaps atheists. How hard is that to understand?
I don't ignore the corruption, I'm merely stating that if you make some sweeping changes along with removing corrupt politicians, it works. Just as it does here.
@AsifIcarebear3 : I make statements that are backed up by history on every single country in existence and that has existed. Power corrupts, and there is no greater power than government. There is corruption because there is no checks of balances. With charities there is.
Again, if you don't agree with a charity, you have a CHOICE! You can choose something else. You choose to go with what you agree with. What if I don't agree with abortions, but my money is used to fund them?
@LinuxGeek350 I've heard your choice argument, don't worry. In your society, I will. But if the general consensus is that faggots are evil, how much money do you really think an organisation that provides for gays will really get? Not much. The government cannot discriminate. They have to give aid to anyone, no matter political views, sexual orientation or social status. At least, that's how it should be, and how it is in some countries.
@AsifIcarebear3 : They cant discriminate? If so many people think gay people are evil, then how whats to stop the government? If you are going down the road that SO many people hate gays, to the point that charities will not get much money to help, then you cant seriously think the government will magically go be nonbias. Governments are bias to politics. If they wont get voted for if they help gays, they wont. I cant understand this logic here.
@LinuxGeek350 Why are Scandinavian countries not absolutely falling apart? Seeing as how "every single country in existence and that has existed" does so when they adopt a welfare-state-model it's odd that they're somehow still up and running.
i've seen guys walk on broken ankles for weeks in ranger school. Saw a guy with his arm blown off, blown off, blown the fuck off get out of his burning truck return fire on the enemy kill 2 insurgent and then drop, due to blood lose. So Fuck you young turks, You can all kiss my mother fucking ass. I would love to lay the beating of your life down on you and half way thru give you a chance to run and see how fast you can move.
mrrossn 4 days ago
So people who believe in Health care can beat people up who don't just to prove they need health care. I think this is TYT argument. I think this is how Stalin and Mao dealt with things before they killed more people then Hitler ! TYT should be sued for misinformation !
supremeobliterator 1 month ago
Great videos, glad someone finally exposed these phonies!
TreeSmoke1999 2 months ago
@0:40 "Nee-ither is true". lolz
zoszo19sl 2 months ago
What a fucking asshole.
Partisanship robs people of all compassion and common sense. It happens on both sides and it needs to stop.
No one is fully democrat or fully republican. But we ARE all Americans.
Stop the in-fighting. Fight the politicians. ALL OF THEM.
Ron Paul is the one most interested in doing the tough thing. Bite the bullet, lets stop printing money NOW.
The sooner you guys realize that BOTH parties are robbing us blind, the sooner you will realize that neither party gives a fuck.
2eelShmeal 4 months ago in playlist How the world works
The Young TURDS
ajsaccount1991 5 months ago
if cenk went to law school he should ask for a refund
nphanlon1973 5 months ago
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KingdomAwaits 6 months ago
The Documentary Hot Coffee shows how Corporations don't want to be held responsible when they screw up.
ubermisogynist 6 months ago
Universal Healthcare... is a disaster for the United States... well if you don't consider all the great socialized healthcare programs across europe, even in Canada. I suspect that theoretically you would be acurrate in your assumptions.
FrankinFingerz 9 months ago
@FrankinFingerz If its so grate why is Canada's Healthcare starting to move in the direction of what we have in the US? And why are most of the programs across Europe heading going belly up from no funds?
agamimnon423 9 months ago
@FrankinFingerz About 90% of medical advances come out of the US. In Socialized Health-care People literally wait months or years for surgery, not to mention horrible service. There is also mass rationing in every socialized healthcare system. Also if the government wants they can force doctors to move to another location.
ThatHaloGuy117 5 months ago
@ThatHaloGuy117
It's true that if you're rich, the U.S. has the best health care system in the world. For 95% of our population, that is not the case. Also, I don't know where you're getting your information from, but countries with universal health care have lower infant mortality rates and longer life expectancies than we do. Lastly, the liberals were pushing for would only allow the government to administer cost of health care. It wouldn't be able to interfere with doctors or medicine.
icannotthinkofone3 3 months ago
@ThatHaloGuy117 China, Canada, Finland, England, Israel and Russia all have socialized healthcare and it has a majority approval rating for each country.
The percentage of total health expenditure financed by taxation in Finland (78%) The quality of service in Finnish health care, as measured by patient satisfaction, is excellent. 88% of Finnish respondents were satisfied compared with the EU (wikipedia paraphrase)
pobloman1 3 weeks ago
Comment removed
pobloman1 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@ThatHaloGuy117 Socialized healthcare would be cheaper,corporations charging excessive fees and being interested in their own personal gain should not have the responsibility of managing healthcare. Socialized Healthcare would ensure that you are always covered even when you have no money. Next time you are at a doctors office I fucking dare you to ask for a free checkup or free surgery that is what socialized healthcare would allow.
pobloman1 3 weeks ago
"Socialized Health would be a disaster for this nation!" You guys are already in an abyss xD and YOU guys don't even HAVE SOCIAL HEALTH CARE xD
KpopManiacSFL 9 months ago
this cenk guy is seriously the worst in the media, i think hes even worse than olbermann
packerfan748 10 months ago
hahah, oh my gosh, i laughed so hard at this one, i cant believe they tried to defame that guy like that, i mean its sad, but i laughed, keep up with these videos, good job
packerfan748 10 months ago
If 3 people stomped the "Young Turk",he'd understand.
Visinicus 10 months ago
filthy little turkish douchbag.
joejoe4812 10 months ago
TheYoungTurks really are stupid radicals. Look up their analysis of the World Cup KFC commerical..
Infinity161 11 months ago
I like how some people in America think countries with universal healthcare are somehow worse off. Waiting in line for "hours or days"? You think they're put in waiting rooms if they've been stabbed and blood is gushing out of their throat? That's powerful ignorance right there. Universal healthcare is the only reasonable way to go. Private coorporations earn more money the less they have to pay you. How hard is that to understand?
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 Dude, you can come over here illegally and get healthcare! Don't worry about our system. It's the best in the world. It just needs to be made more accessible to legal citizens rather than these border jumpers.
dowder6 11 months ago
@dowder6 The system in USA in nowhere near the best. compared to a country with universal healthcare like Canada child mortality is higher, life expectancy is lower, general happiness about the system is lower. Around 90-95% of people in Denmark are happy with the system.
To be quite honest, I don't think a country should throw anyone out just because they aren't legal citizens. Even if that person hasn't contributed to the country it gets treatment from, he/she shouldn't die. Call me immoral.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Look how they judge infant mortality between countries and find out why ours is higher. Life expectancy? Look at what Americans eat and the studies on them health wise and get back to me. And it doesn't matter how happy people are with the system. Are these systems in the black or in the red? Can they stand on their own? And is the situation getting better or worse?
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 For every 1k live children born you measure how many died. So? Your diet plays a role, but the fact that not everybody can afford to receive health care prooobably also has a thing or two to say.
Happiness does matter. Or do you really think a country would be happy with a system that killed them? In civilized countries with healthcare, people are happy because they can go see a doctor and receive any treatment needed; without having to fear their insurance company going after them
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : I went over your head with the baby mortality rate. Look at other ours and other countries on what is considered a baby mortality and what is a still birth. And no one is restricted health care. I've gone on minimal pay for years with no health insurance and I got plenty of care. Diet plays a MAJOR role in it, don't pass something off because it hurts your ideology.
Happiness doesn't matter if the system collapses... (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 When the babies are dying, no matter how, at a higher rate than in other countries, something is amiss.
What happens if you get seriously ill? If you get cancer or such? You're fucked. Diet obviously plays a huge role, but it doesn't cover all babies.
You're assuming the system is about to collapse over here. How funny. Especially when your own country already has, and will be owned by the Chinese in a few years.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 :Please try to do some research first before posting something like this. I asked you to look into what is considered a baby mortality and what is considered a stillbirth. You still are lost. You think when you add the two together the US still ranks high? Please do some research, but I guess I can help a little. Baby mortality rate isnt higher in the US if you factor in the baby moralities that happen in other countries that are counted off as stillbirths. Again, research please
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 Maybe you should provide some sources to your claims. Besides, why should I factor in something the study specifically mentions isn't relevant to it?
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : You made the claim, maybe you should learn to look deeper into things instead of just agreeing with any study that fits your side. I'll try to find something if you insist on accepting whatever is given to you. And it is reliant. You made a claim that our healthcare is bad because of our infancy mortality rate, and I pointed you in a little fact that many who make this claim never seem to look into.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 Infant mortality rate was just a small part of my argument. Besides, if you just think about it you'll realise that tax-funded healthcare is in fact the way to go. USA will eventually adopt it as well, but it'll take some time for you guys to come to your senses. I don't even have to argue against you, because there's no reasonable doubt I'm right.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : You made the argument, I showed how flawed it was, so again you dodge it. Btw the argument style of "Im right you're wrong!" is a little childish. You say its the way to go without really building any sort of case for it, I have built a case and you ran from it.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 You haven't built anything. You haven't even tried arguing against me. You just said "your country is in dept" without even knowing how my country is run. It's hard not saying I'm right and you're wrong, because that's the case. You tax people a lot, and those who can afford it more - the wealthy, obviously - and everyone in society benefits. No one is held back. In fact, those with brains and will power are propped up, because they don't have to take huge loans to go to school.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Excuse me? Please go back and reread my posts. I built a case for the problems with our current system and the direction it needs to go, you ignored it. You aren't even being honest with what I am saying! Everything you just claimed I am talking about is factually wrong. I think you have me confused with someone else you are arguing with, because you definitely aren't referring to me.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 I reread some of your posts to me. You haven't really said much that I can respond to. Exactly what case have you built?
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : The original argument? I explained what was wrong with our system, and the reason it got that way. You did read my early posts didn't you?
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 I haven't bothered reading any posts not directed to me, because I had no real reason.
If you'd bothered with reading my posts you'd see that I already answered your question regarding my country's financial state; no one is going haywire or losing their minds over our massive deficit, so I'll assume we aren't owing anyone half our country. If that's not good enough for you, go google the shit out of denmark.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 (C) you really don't know what is wrong with our current system do you? You have to have a system that is bearable yes, but one that can stand on its own. Let me ask you. Can you use your car insurance to get an oil change? Or a broken head light? No. It handles emergencies only. You don't buy fire insurance when your house is on fire right? No, because no system could survive something like that. Thats what medical insurance has become. (c)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 Exactly, that's what medical insurance has become; something that denies treatment to those with pre-existing conditions. They die. They die because they were poor. In civilized countries people who need help receive it. How is that wrong? We've put up a system that helps people who need medical care; something your country lacks.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Yeah my post went way over your head... You ignored what I said was the problem with your system, AND ignored everything I said about what was wrong with our system. Please reread what I said and take some time to think about it before coming back to me. Maybe then your response will actually be on topic and hold more water.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 I ignored what you assumed about my system because it's wrong. Pretty damn simple, but I guess you can't expect too much from someone who thinks private healthcare is the way to go.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : What did I assume? Please tell me. That its in the red? Show me I'm wrong. Or did you mean something else?
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 You assume countries with universal healthcare are plumetting into dept because of it. This is simply not the case.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Then show they are in the black and not in the red. If its just an assumption and not true, then back it up. I asked you from the beginning the status of them, if they are in the red or black, and you've dodged the question again and again, so I'll ask it again. whats the economic situation of these programs. Are they in the black or red?
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 I haven't tried dodging anything. I'm not quite sure where the programs are, but my country isn't in massive dept. No one is going batshit insane about universal healthcare throwing us into peril. Last time I checked my country had almost no dept whatsoever. Besides, when you tax people a lot, you'll afford to give a lot; in this case education and healthcare.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 (C) once insurance started covering basic care, people no longer saw the cost from one doctor to the next, which destroyed competition. What happens to prices when the buyers cant see them? Thats right class, they go up. You think hiding the cost even further is going to help our medical situation? Wrong. And if you think the other countries care is so wonderful, why are they all falling deeper and deeper into debt?
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 You think those insurance companies won't rip you to tiny itty bitty shreds if they could squeeze a few extra dollars out of you, because you had the flu 20 years ago, meaning you yourself were responsible for your cancer now? (If you take this analogy literally you're a moron, just so we don't have to go through that.) If we're falling into dept it's because of the economical environment. Not because we don't shit on the poor. We have high(er) taxes, and in return receive tons.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Please reread my post, then comment on the insurance companies. Because you obviously got lost in the argument.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 When the doctors are hired by the state, and therefore get a set pay, prices won't go up. Hospitals aren't private institutions payed for by the government, you know. They're owned and run by the government. Of course, in your third world country they're not, meaning the little man gets ripped off completely. Don't even think about saying this results in bad doctors; medical school will always be very popular, meaning only the top students are accepted.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Oh how little you know about economics... I'll save my response till you give me the financial situation of the health care systems that you love so much. Then we can talk.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Besides. I'd tone the insults down a bit on the US, me, and what I believe. You insult my views but offer nothing that shows me you even understand it or the problems you believe it has. If you don't agree, then we can debate civilly. But insulting it before even attempting to debate it shows me you don't really want answers or understand the truth, you just want to push what you believe and dismiss any opposing views.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 It's hard to take the viewpoint of privatized healthcare seriously, and therefore hard to take an argument about it seriously; because it's not the best way to go. When medicare isn't available to anyone and everyone who needs it, your system has problems. This is currently the case in the USA, and not in civilized countries.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Then build a case against my proposal! You cant just dodge the statement by saying it cant be taken seriously! Tell me how it will fail. Your argument is flawed because everyone has access to health care, even without insurance. I have gone for years without it and had major and minor care given to me. I broke it up into payment plans and paid them off in time (Long time). When I got more I added them together and paid them off gradually. (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 You haven't even made a proposal, what's there to shred? The system in the USA is flawed because people end up paying much more for their care than if it was simply run by the government. If you paid for it through taxes, and doctors were hired by the government, the required pay for a certain procedure would be lower, since no huge company needs to pay hundreds of thousands dollars worth of bonuses to their executives.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : This is why its so difficult to take you seriously. My proposal went so far over your head its laughable. What thousands of dollars in bonus's? What are you debating against? My proposal the money goes simply to the doctors... Again. REREAD my posts! You clearly don't understand them. And how can cost go up when you go back to true competition? You're arguing with the system thats in place now, not my proposal. Focus on that.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 When you let the money go directly to the doctors, people won't be able to pay up, because treatments cost so much. This means insurance companies and therefore a huge added cost to the price of treatment, because that company needs to profit. If you want the money to go to doctors without any middle man at all, people won't be able to pay without getting in massive dept.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Excuse me. You still can't get my proposal right. This is getting embarrassing... I mean look at it from my side. I build a logical case for my side, you ignore it and continue to say your side. I point that out and you say my points cant be taken seriously, without giving any sort of counter case. Then when I challenge you, you can't even seem to understand what I proposed and the workings of it. Please take your time and try to understand my case before posting...
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 So before you regurgitate more useless "rawr you're not getting it rawr" shit, why don't you try and explain it from start to finish, since this lowly peasant apparently cannot fathom your awe inspiring and amazingly keen intelligent argument for how healthcare management should be handled.
If you spam more "you're not understanding rawr" we will never get beyond this petty little stage that you seemingly want to be on so badly. Give me your argument and reasoning or piss off.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : I have given you the entire explanation from start to finish and summarized it two more times. But lets go into where you was mistaken shall we? People wont be able to pay up if money goes directly to the doctor? Apparently you didn't listen when I told you how cost got completely out of control. To summarize it started when people started pushing insurance for basic health care. Basic health care cost was not out of control long ago. (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : People paid for medicine as well, and if costs were too high, you would go to a doctor whoms cost you could afford. Was it always perfect? No. However we have technology now that helps us create payment plans and help, as well as so many charity programs to help people in need. What insurance was for was something you would pay into in case a massive emergency happened, like every other insurance program in existence. (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : However it eventually got screwed up when people decided to put basic care in the insurance program. Oh it sounded good at first and worked for awhile, but it was unstable. It hid the cost from people and the cost of each section. And that will always cause cost to go up, because you also have no competition. So your argument that they couldn't afford it shows me you ether don't understand what I'm telling you or don't understand free markets. (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 In short, your proposal is silly. You cannot rely on competition to lower prices of all treatments; some will always be waaay above what the little man with the bad job, or no job at all, can handle. With my system we all get treatment. The wealthy have to pay a little more in taxes, but it's cool, because at the end of the day they're still wealthy.
By the way, it's amusing how angry you get over my inability to read your mind. You never explained anything. You just raged. Funny.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Again, nothing but rhetoric. I'm not really angry, this is kinda amusing. You offered no real objections, only showing that you have no idea how economics work. You cant tell me the financial status of your countries health care. You can only parrot what you've been taught, with no real mind of your own. I'm going to have to call check mate on this, because you've shown no ability to think outside of your little box. Its kind of a shame, I was hoping for more out of you.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Though I should post again, because you wont understand what I just stated, so I'll have to spell it out for you. You ignored the fact we have payment plans. That anyone can get health care right now. I did for years off minimum wage and. NO HEALTH INSURANCE. You cant/wont give me the financial situation of your country because if it is like you propose, it is unsustainable. That is a hard reality for people like you to admit. Its been shown and is being shown today.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : I mean you have no answers. Just put it all to the government and taxes magically fixes the problem. This only makes it worse. You propose we add massive amounts of people, creating more demand. Then force the markets at a certain price. You realize how complicated the health care system is? You realize how much cost control you have to do? Markets change, you cant control cost like that. You only make the problem worse. Thats why I asked you if they are in the black or red.(C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 (C) because they are in the red, usually deep red. And getting worse each year. Free markets used wisely had produced the fastest growth in a country in history, and its the reason why most countries that have gone away from free markets long ago are suddenly turning back to them. Government cant artificially control a market, at least not for a long period of time. Look at the countries now that have tried. And before you jump all over the US, (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 No point trying to convince you of anything else. I too am deeply disappointed in you. I really thought you'd at least try to put forth a decent solution instead of this sad pseudo intellectual excuse for an alternative. You apparently aren't even able to read; it's pretty damn difficult to convince of, or even just convey anything to you. Oh well, you'll be fine. Unless you lose your job and get sick, of course. Then you're freaking dead.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Wow.. projectionism anyone? You've given no solutions at all except government health care. You cant give any real financial information on why this is a sound solution. I have given you a plan, a direction to go, a reason for that direction, how it can work financially. I have taken time to give you information filled responses, only to be met with half assed posts of you laughing and childish responses. Come back when you grow up a little and learn something about economics
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 No no no, you haven't given me anything. You've basically given me a sentence; pay directly to the doctors, and then explained why insurance got to the point it is today. It won't "work", because people won't be able to receive sufficient healthcare. But of course, you've just pole-vaulted right over that. Some people have no jobs, no money to pay with, nothing. I've tried debating with you, but you've consistently just spurted out "you don't get it lol" without saying much else.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Excuse me? Look at my post after post! I've given a heck of a lot more than a once sentence response. Its called detail and explanations, but apparently you skimmed my posts. I have said you dont understand on many occasions because you dont seem to be listening at all to my posts, but just give me half assed responses that fail, and then i go into how they fail and yet you still repeat it. And I havent gone "lol" that would be you my friend. Stop giving me empty statements.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 (C) we have not been a free country for a long long time. The government control you love has taken this country and put it in the hole. This is a historic fact that every time these types of spending practices are tried, they have resulted in collapse. Its been true for the US and other countries. What you propose is the same failed strategy that is bankrupting most countries to date. Show me otherwise
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 You're calling check mate? I think I might get a seizure from laughing too hard. Good thing I won't have to pay a single dime for that. But before you triumphantly knock down any imaginary chess pieces maybe you yourself should do what you're telling me to do. Read my freaking posts. If you're poor or without any money whatsoever it won't matter how efficient or long-term your payment plans are. You're basically trying to say my round shape is a square.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Please take an economics class. So far you've shown nothing of intelligence on the subject. And in case you've already forgotten.. IVE BEEN IN THAT SITUATION FOR YEARS! I was paying long after I finally got some small insurance, but I paid a small amount. Thats with the huge prices we have atm because of what I've been telling you all this time. I've read everything you said and its empty. You cant even combat one thing I've said effectively.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 It's easy to combat what you say, because it's void of any strength. The hard part is to convince you I just explained to you why you're so incredibly wrong.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : If its so easy, then why haven't you combated anything I've said correctly? I give you reasons and examples of why your half assed responses fail to understand reality and economics. And all I get is another half assed response like this one. Seriously, what grade are you in?
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 As I've said, refuting your silly proposition is easy. Making your realise what you're suggesting won't work is hard, for whatever reason.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : I mean seriously. Its like this. I give a massive response explaining my idea, and get met with a "They cant afford it." response. So I go into why they can, and get met with a "No they cant afford it" response... So I explain more. and get a "Raise taxes and control prices" response. I explain in detail why that idea will fail and get a "No you're wrong" response... Seriously? And you act like you somehow have some sort of intellectuality superiority?
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 I'm not saying people can't afford it - "they" obviously can today. I'm saying some people who are poor or in massive debt already have no chance. If you owe hundreds of thousands of dollars, without any bright light at the end of the tunnel, you're fucked. You have yet to explain how such people can receive treatment.
By the way, your explanations can be condensed to "they pay over a long period". How can I not claim every conceivable superiority over anyone claiming this?
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Have you ever been poor? I have. I have had thousands in debt. I have had little to no income to speak of. I worked myself out of it gradually. I am still there for the most part, but I never thought to go after government handouts. I have been there. Thats the problem with this argument. You speak of these things as far off "little people". When I speak to this from experience.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 And you're acting as if "if I can do it, everyone can!" is a decent argument. Explain to me how someone who has no education in a country with no jobs is going to be able to pay - even in the long term - for a procedure that could cost $200k. Don't say competition will solve it, unless you want old women with no concept of hygiene and a rusty old kitchen knife performing surgery on poor people because some treatments are simply too expensive.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : competition will help lower the cost, and seeing the cost first hand will also help. Look at the things in this country and how they've gotten cheeper and better. Its because companies are constantly on the lookout at how to improve their product. And this works its way up to each level. Its only when the costs are hidden to prices go upward like they have. Ok now to get to your question. The answer is hard work. Everyone has an opportunity for education in this country. (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 As I said, some treatment just has a bottom level cost. Some medicine can't be much cheaper, some procedures are just too expensive.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Learn a little about innovation and changing procedures. Computers used to be the size of a room. They got better but still were slow for some time. No one could see how they could amount to anything more. Until a company found a way to make silicon chips. And changed the shape of computers forever. This is something government has never been able to help, because it cant adapt like a business can. You know how slow governments are when it comes to change.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 Furthermore, concerning education, if your family is only just able to put food on the table education isn't within arm's reach, which is why education should be free - so that you can tap into the brains of the poor part of society.
The government isn't completely unable to pump money into research or hire private companies to invent stuff. Not every single thing has to be privatized in order to prosper.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : I somewhat agree with your last statement. Not everything has to be privatized. But it makes sense to in a lot more places than you think. But as far as education. My parents couldn't afford education at all. I did go to college using full financial aid. And am still paying them off. You seem to overlook simple answers to these problems.
And I didn't say government was completely unable to handle it, but just look at their track record. Its embarrassing. and always will be.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 Wouldn't it be better if you could go to school, get your education, and immediately start making tons of money - and therefore be able to pay more in taxes? And spend more money, creating jobs? It might be a simple answer, but it's a simple answer that means "the man" has you by the balls before you even set foot on the market. Furthermore, if you can't get a job, that debt won't exactly help you get by. Paying for such things through tax makes way more sense.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : What if answers don't fit too well with reality. I could sit and ask for the government to pay for everything for me, or to give me everything I want in life. But I don't. A few things you probably should know. I could easily have my loans reduced, and get a monthly check from the government. I have enough disabilities to live pretty decently without doing any work. Yet I refuse. I dont want that kind of life, Dependant on the government for my well being. Thats not America.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 Okay? Fact of the matter is that the charity you mentioned earlier should be made mandatory so that you're sure that the money are there when you need them. The next step is to extend the base of society that can have access to this "charity" - which they pay to themselves their entire lives, by the way, possibly saving the life of a loved one.
It's not something you just get from the government. Free education means a well educated society. Education breeds prosperity.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Many problems with this. Whats made charities so effective is when they are free. Many millionaires give to them and many people volunteer in them to help. You put government into them, they become like every other failed government organization. When you take away the incentive, you lose the will. Another thing is you try to push people to not get into these situations, trying to keep the base level at a minimal. People who have safety nets in plane sight make more mistakes(C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 A safety net is like a fish? No, the knowledge that you won't have to rely on the generosity of rich people is not something that will just make people slack off. People are greedy, and they want more than simply getting by, if they can help it. I highly, highly doubt any significant amount of people will think "no need to work hard and become rich because I've got healthcare all covered". No one has that mentality in my country; we all want to be doctors.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : That doesn't mean the safety nets are there, but if you keep handing people fishes, they will never learn to fish for themselves. Charities accomplish this. They help those that truely need it without making it a right or a mandate. This helps keep people from relying on it too heavily. Some still will, but far less. Now for the education part. I got education and I respected it, why? Because I paid for it. I worked hard, knowing I was on my own dime, not the governments.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 You might respect it more, so what? If you have a huge amount of people who aren't able to go to school because their family is poor, they're unable to raise the money themselves or simply to avoid having to get enormous debt you're keeping society uneducated. When its tax-funded more people choose to go to school, meaning more scientists, more businesses, more money in the public and therefore more spending and job creating. Some genius might be working at McD because he's poor.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Everyone has a choice. I was poor but I got into school. You quickly push that aside saying some dont want to get into big debt. Well then they made their choice. What we need is those with drive to be educated and push forward, not swamp the schools with people who are getting a free ride. I already said I focused much more on college than highschool because I knew it was my money I was using. That genius working at McD wouldnt be there if he had the drive to go for it. (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 You're saying it's perfectly fine that people are thrown into massive debt because they want an education? What if their education doesn't necessarily yield tons of profit, so that they can only barely get by for decades? This stuff is happening. If you paid for it through taxes you'd be without debt. How is that bad? You say we filter out those without drive. Do you think they'd have any less drive if it was tax-funded? With free education you have a much bigger pool of people...
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : You missed the point. Those that have drive will get in reguardless, because they have the will to do it. But increasing the "pool" as you say means youll have much more without drive involved, lessening the education of those that do. You require more teachers and thus spend more and more, meaning taxes will have to continue to go up.
As for the first question, yes. Because the risk means they will be much more careful in jumping into a profession in if they (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 Know there will be consequences for their actions. And you keep painting a grim picture on it. Though everyone I know that went into college and built up debt has survived. Some became very sucessful and others struggled, but all were bettered because of it. Look life happens, life is hard. Why must you believe you have to get the government involved in anything thats "hard"? We cant accommodate the lazy at the expense of the driven. The answer is already in your argument.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 All were bettered because they had a negative worth for many, many years after being done with their education? Sounds silly. Just buy way too big a house if that's how you feel.
How is a country that wants its society to be well educated accommodating the lazy? Come on. Some simply have to not choose education because of that.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Because believe it or not, many dont want to be educated. We all have opportunities in this country to be educated and make lives better for ourselves. Like I said the most brilliant minds in the world usually had no education, in fact our school systems ended up bringing them down to the point many dropped out. Many of the top business men didn't even go to college of even dropped out of highschool. Think of it this way. (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 I think you'll find that most brilliant minds went to some sort of university. Lower level education means nothing, but you won't become a physicist by not educating yourself. There's a difference between skills acquired by experience, such as business-oriented ones, and knowledge based on other people's findings, such as physics, maths, biology, technology and what have you.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Actually... no. Did you not hear what I said? Most brilliant minds ether never went to college or didn't even go to highschool. Kinda like the fact that Michael Jordan was kicked off his basketball team in school. I have looked into many important figures and their life's stories. Its amazing to study. You should try it, you might learn a lot like I did.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 So what are you saying, education doesn't work? Michael Jordan played basketball man, you don't need a ton of education for that. But show me a guy who built a satellite or a rocket without going to school for it. All the technology you're looking at right now; made by people who went to school. Perhaps sold and traded by people who didn't, but you wouldn't be using all of this had it not been for some people's education. What a weird thing to say.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Strange how you came to that conclusion, but I do where you could see that in my posts. I probably focused that point a bit much. My focus though is on drive. Those who want to push themselves will, but those that dont, wont. You can give everyone a free ride all you want, but its not going to create more educated people. Like in my last post I mentioned how many of us in my school had to fend for ourselves because the professors had to take too much time on those that (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 Yes, it will create much more educated people. Some of my friends are going to study microbiology, meaning they might invent something very revolutionary. If it hadn't been free, they might've just worked some lowly job. Drive is obviously very good, but sometimes simple opportunity can create the same effect. Besides, it's not exactly a "free ride" when we just pay for it through taxes over the course of many years, interest-free.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Its like talking to a brick wall here. If you're friends are driven enough to create some breakthrough, they would get the education regardless of the hurdles. Drive creates opportunity, but opportunity does not create drive. Its like the guy that has the most expensive guitar equipment out there, but cannot play worth anything. Yet you have someone who worked hard for a small used guitar and creates beautiful music.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 But what if you have two guitarists who worked hard to get there, and you may get one hit. But if you have 10 guitarists, you might get three.
Opportunity can easily create drive. My friend loves his education, and just might make it big. If it had been with a price tag of $200k or whatever, he wouldn't have even considered it.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : wasn't cut out to be programmers. In a perfect world, we all could get free everything and it would all be rainbows and sunshine. But in the real world, these things cost money. And the more and more programs you burden on the average taxpayer, the less and less the country has to survive. As I said, study whats going on in the world right now. Everything is falling apart.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 Why does the country have less and less to survive? If the tax is set low, yes. But it's not - it's somewhat high. Many people are cool with that, however, because they got their sweet jobs for "free" and can therefore earn a lot now. When I become a lawyer I'll gladly pay maybe 60% in taxes knowing that my country provided me with education and the knowledge I wouldn't have loan tons of money to get said education and healthcare.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : But its not a lot. Taxpayers are barely making due around the world now. You miss the point here anyway. If I get everything handed to me, where is the drive to get it? Like I said in the last post, Opportunity doesn't create drive, but drive creates Opportunity. The US became the strongest country in the world when it lived by these principals. If no one can truely get ahead, then where is the push to go? If most of my money gets taxed away so someone who works about 10% (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 I have tons of drive to become a lawyer. I might not have wanted to try if it hadn't been free right now.
Don't think I'm arguing for communism. While it's a beautiful thought, people are too selfish. However, a percentage of 60% means my family, my friends, my children and their children will receive health and education when need be.
People won't lack drive, by the way. We're greedy. We want to succeed and not just get by.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : You just defeated your entire argument. How can someone have drive is most of their wealth is taken away? You think its going to stop at 60%? Tell me when a government that had so much "invested" in these types of programs didn't eventually climb. Eventually it will become 62. 64. 65, 70. Whens it going to be enough? The "Rich" in the US already pay more than 50% of their taxes. If you cant succeed, you lose your drive.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 Why should it increase? It certainly hasn't where I live. You still have incentive to succeed, because you're greedy. You want to earn a lot. And if you have to settle for 5 cars instead of 6, I think you'll just be able to survive. That whole argument is pretty weak. You think people would just go "fuck it" if everyone had to pay 60% of their taxes? No, because we want more than our neighbour. It's how man rolls.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : you live an extremely sheltered life my friend. 5 cars instead of 6? I'm barely affording the one I have. And I worked damn hard to get it. Costs always go up, thats the way the world has been. You want to succeed more than your neighbour. How can you when all you earn is taxed away? If you are naive enough to believe that it will just stay at 60%, then obviously there is little I can do for you my friend. I'll wait till you get a bit more experience in the world.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 Yeah, those 6 cars were ooobviously aimed at the normal guy. No! We were talking rich people people. Can you honestly say that you'd just lay back and accept less money ´to obtain stuff if your tax was at 60%? I'd want to work hard, because I want sweet items and trinkets.
Why would the tax increase? It hasn't. Most certainly not at the levels you're proclaiming.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : What makes your system so special? How is it you succeeded where everyone else has failed all throughout history? The truth is these systems take time to build. You sometimes experience bliss for a season, then it falls quickly like all have before. Governments can only control costs for so long before the world eats them up. Costs dont just go up because of greed, they increase because of need. Its like putting up a damn to cover to stop a waterfall. (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 "everyone else has failed"? What are you talking about? The idea of taxing the people in order to provide for them with universal healthcare and education isn't some weird fringe idea that only a few freak countries have attempted and failed miserably at.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Never said it was. My statement still stands. Most countries have tried something similar and they have failed, in the process of failing, or are still in the early stages (that can last artificially for many years) You simply cannot control every part of the market successfully and not expect it to crash in time. Markets change. Simple things like roads are possible because there isn't too many changing parts, and can be put off in time. Health care is far too complex.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Sure for awhile you can keep the water under control, but as it grows, eventually its going to bust and flood the entire area. The world and markets are too complicated for a selective few to handle and understand, they can only be controlled successfully when everyone has some control over it. You put a government in control of all cost, one that could not even handle a normal business, how can you possibly think its going to end well? You can believe what you want. (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : You have given me test after test, question after question of things you thought were unsolvable by free markets, and I have answered every one of them with real world examples and experience. At some point you have to stop and at least agree my solutions make sense, even if you dont agree with them. Early on in this argument, you treated me as though I was clueless and mocked my ideas. But in time I have shown you that these solutions are not doom and gloom. (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : My goal is not to change you right here and now. But to at least show you that there are answers, that free markets and the rights ideas are not so skaterbrained. If you at least remember 10% of what I told you, then I was a success. Because when your world comes crashing down, you may be one of the few that jumps ship before it all falls apart. I dont think the US is going to fall just yet to this pie in the sky ideas, but it eventually will. (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : All I can do is hope for the best and try and explain to those that have been tempted under these lies. Do I think your ideas are nuts and absurd? Of course not. In a perfect world they would be ideal. But it isn't a perfect world, its a cruel world at times. Just to go back to what we was talking about before for a sec. Hardships make people stronger. I wouldnt be the man I am today without hardships. My fiancée wouldn't be the amazingly strong woman she is if (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : wasnt given hardships that both me and you could never understand, even in our worst nightmares. Getting a free ride makes people soft. Do you know how to tame a pet? You dont break them and punish them, you feed them, coddle them. Eventually they're life becomes in your hand, and they need you. People are being tamed gradually. Pain and hardship taken away, turning them into subjects, sheep. Not people. USA wasnt built by people that had everything (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 and remember that I was indeed correct. When you provide a nation with free education, you prop up those on the bottom who have the brains and willpower to succeed, without plunging them into massive, massive debts making the wealthy just a wee bit wealthier.
You can try and argue that my circle is a square all you want. Doesn't make it any less round. It fits through all the round holes. Once your triangle gains a few more corners you might realise your mistakes.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Nice revision of history there, you only claimed you was correct, but couldn't make a single point that I couldn't successfully counter. I pulled back a bit because the argument has now gone into "Its going to go past 60%" "No its not" back and forth. I keep trying to point you in the right direction but you dig your heals in and keep fighting, so the argument will only circle. But if you cant even admit that I withstood each and every question/trap you put on me (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 You haven't made an argument why the tax would ever explode above those 60%, you just zealously claimed it. It hasn't where I live for many years, so why should I believe your silly claim?
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : (C) with logical and sane explanations, then it would seem I expected too much. I'm not asking you to agree with me, but to at least acknowledge that my side and points do in fact make sense. You can use the square and circle analogy all you want but you have nothing to back it up with, just opinions you was taught probably most of your life. My arguments are formed from history and basic economics.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 There are several questions you haven't answered at all of sufficiently. Why do you keep insisting on trying to argue against communism? I've said about three times now that I don't want the government to control the entire market, because that's more or less impossible in the globalised world we live in. If you want to talk indoctrination, look at yourself and how you're trying to defend a system that's crumbling before your eyes; one that plummets people into debt for education.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 If you're so into hardships Africa must be a super awesome place. Getting limbs chopped off every now and then, getting raped and killed. Hardship breeds strong people, doesn't it, so we can expect the best businessmen coming from there any second now.
History has shown that uncontrolled free market capitalism creates a super elite of society, certainly not equal opportunity for all.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Are you seriously trying to make that an argument? You cant even get it correct. Africa will indeed produce strong individuals, those that survive. But you seem to jump from strength to business men, what kind of argument is that? Notice the strongest Christians in the world and in history were from places where Christians were murdered and killed for their faith. I mean come on, are you really trying to disappoint me this much? Now lets get into your next statement. (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 Oh, so you're saying that the resistance an African man encounters only breeds physical strength? You said that hardship brings forth strength. That should mean that in one of the worst areas imaginable we should see some killer results.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : We do. Have you ever spoken with a Holocaust surviver? A person who made it through the great depression? A Christian man that survived in countries where you are killed for having even a bible? You will not find stronger people than those. Have you ever spent time with a handicap person? I have, and live with one. And let me tell you, you know nothing of strength until you see someone whose been and survived great hardships. I dont know where you are trying to go with this.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Capitalism creates super elite of society? What does that even mean? You mean people that work their ways up out of the class they was in and move up the ladder? I mean your statement sounds cute and all, but what does it even mean? That some rise up and create businesses while others work for those businesses? Giving to charities to help those at the bottom. I mean thats how it works, that show the US went from nothing to top in speed never seen before.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 When you have a total free market capitalistic system you succeed in creating one thing; a super elite. Those who once fought themselves to the top have now been there for years and years, because everyone else are held down. Look at Rome. Or look at the USA. If you're a poor man in a poor neighbourhood, you aren't exactly going to Harvard any time soon. The wealthy owns everything. An indirect consequence of this is corruptions - bought politicians.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : I think you need to see the movie blind side. You sadly have a misguided view of the US. I never went to harvard but let me tell you, you will be hard pressed to find a more creative and flexible programmer. I am doing well for myself so far. I have already gotten to a place my parents only dreamed of. Despite my handicaps. I've been on the bottom. I think you need to learn to question things you hear a bit more, because you are sadly misinformed.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 Assuming you're somewhat educated, do you think that you'd never gone to where you are now, if you didn't hadn't to borrow tons of money in order get there? The fact that you suggest or support ribbing people off for them to get a shot a the good life seems so self-backstabbing. I've read your argument several times now, but would you really only accept that someone has education and hence a good job if they're facing massive debts?
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Im well educated because I worked hard for it. I borrowed money to get where I am. Many have managed to get through college without spending a dime, but worked their entire way through it and have become very rich because of what they learned outside of the classrooms. You have no argument here, you just say its unfair, which is the way the world is. How is it not fair that I work hard and pay for MY education, but its fair to make everyone else pay for MY education?
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 You're paying for your own education down the line, because you become a tax payer; one that may very well end up paying much more in taxes because of said education. The difference is that you don't have to pay tons of interests to some bank and that you're helping the youth that doesn't necessarily have wealthy parents. Whichever way you slice or dice it, paying for education is a good thing. It creates an educated society, if it's funded well enough.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : I noticed you seemed to have run from your argument against me on how hardships make strength. The reason I bring this up is because it all ties together. Just like what I said about the kids who's parents bought them cars verses the people who bought their own cars. Look who gets the mosts accidents, the ones that got a free ride. Those that pay for their own education work harder for it. Those that take a risk take more time making sure they make the right decision (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 Run from your argument? Don't flatter yourself. Say you're right and people who pay for their own education values it more. What good does that do when only a tiny part of the country actually does educate itself? Then you have a massive, overwhelming majority of ignorant (not necessarily stupid) people who draw conclusions such as "evolution isn't true because the apes are still here". Tax-funded education leads to a much more well-educated country. Is that bad?
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 (C) and work harder for it. Its just a fact of human nature.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@AsifIcarebear3 : micahporter.blogspot.com/2011/03/health-care.html (You will probably have to copy and paste this into notepad and remove special characters) Here is a little response to you that was far too big for a youtube post. Enjoy
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 I think you're putting too much faith in wealthy people and their desire to give to charity. Sure, some people do, but I somehow doubt that when your greed has put you on the top you'd suddenly start giving to those in need. That seemingly hasn't quite been the case in the USA - or can you give me figures of how much those huge corporations, or their CEOs, give to charity?
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 Well well well, interesting proposal. Lets start out by stating that most of the successful industries have created their OWN charioty programs, besides giving. Like Microsoft, Mcdonalds. But lets look here. wwwDOTamerica.gov/st/washfile-english/2007/June/200706261522251CJsamohT0.8012354.html (Change wwwDOT to an actual . And use notepad to remove any hidden characters youtube puts in.) Notice the amount? (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 How would I be able to recognize what characters youtube puts in? Your link is broken. Besides, I really don't see the huge difference between higher taxation and charity. The difference is choice, but I see too many problems with it. That the flow can suddenly stop if big contributor merges with another that has another policy, that the charity program gets cut during a financial crisis and that there is too little money to deal with.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : The link is not broken. Post a link on here and see if you can then click on it, youll find the same problem. If its too difficult for you to copy and paste into notepad and remove special characters that appear, then just type it out manually! by the way look at my blog post earlier, it explains a ton of things about all this. But the problem IS lack of choice. There is no, and has been no, problems with Charities, they have stood the test of time. (C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 special characters? Links are full of weird characters. I tried following your link but I ended up nowhere.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Try posting a link on youtube then clicking on it. You don't seem to understand this... Youtube adds hidden characters in their post for security reasons. Look don't worry about that link, its hardly important. Did you look at my blog post? Its much easier to type that in manually if you have to. I am a computer programmer, I know a little about computers here :P I am trying to help you here.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 Look, I copy/pasted your link, removed the "DOT" and spaces, and hammered Enter. Post wasn't found on the site. How can I know what characters in your link are bad? Links aren't exactly known for only using lower case letters. I'm trying to help you here.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Help me how? I know how this works and you do not. I explained what they do, and how to fix it and you act like I am somehow in the wrong here. Its been like this with every debate we've had. Look. type this in for my blog post. micahporter.blogspot.com, don't copy and paste it. write it down character by character. then look for the latest of the two posts. Its that simple. I tried to explain how to do it with copy and paste, but you don't understand. So just do this.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 Help you understand what you're making me do. You asked me to copy the link, remove the "DOT" and any "false characters" in the link. How am I supposed to know which characters are false? I've said this many times now. This part of our discussion is seriously becoming absurdly silly and boring. Your posted link didn't work, even with your directions, and that's it.
By the way, you haven't linked me your blog before just now.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : I have above, but you might of missed it. Again youtubes forum system is horrible at times and its easy to overlook things. If you want to know where the hidden characters are. paste it in notepad. look at the two links. the one in youtube and the one in notepad, and find weird characters that dont exist in the youtube link. Its annoying I agree, but thats youtube for you. I hope you take time reading my post, I did my best for you.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 You need to link me that chart of charity again to be honest. It seems peculiar that charity solely focussed on helping the needy would be able to help anyone of very low income, especially when I've seen so many people get rejected and not get proper treatment. I've seen and read much about this topic, and come across a lot of people who were unable to pay their medical bills. There's a reason why the USA can make movies about people robbing banks to pay for "that big surgery".
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : They are given to people that care and use the money wisely, which laws protecting from corruption. The government has interests in politics and politics alone, its all about power. They care more about politics than helping others, and that has been shown again and again. And there is no checks or balances to government, and if they blow all the money, and are in the deep red, they can just keep going with other peoples money.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 You have corrupt politicians partly because you allow lobbying. That doesn't mean a government is a bad thing, that just means the people needs to wake up and start electing some smart men and women on their political views and intelligence rather than how much they believe in God or how much money they can spend on campaigning. But that's a different discussion altogether.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 What if this charity organisation has a bias against gays or blacks or people who aren't Christian and therefore refuses giving any help to them? They can feasibly do this because they aren't obligated by law to give help to anyone.
No matter what you say, this private sector charity instead of taxation is unnecessary if you have a decent government. It has worked for Scandinavian countries for many, many years now.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : Then dont give to that charity, thats how simple it is. Each charity is by law supposed to give records of all they do, governments are not. If you don't agree with one, give to another! How hard is that to understand?
So you ignore the corruption that I just gave by pretending it doesn't exist and its just better than charities. So far your reasons against charities is incredibly weak and false.
(C)
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 But what if the general consensus is that gays and blacks don't deserve charity, and only those biased organisations are well-funded? In an overly Christian country like USA I can easily see an organisation that wouldn't help women that had abortions, gays or perhaps atheists. How hard is that to understand?
I don't ignore the corruption, I'm merely stating that if you make some sweeping changes along with removing corrupt politicians, it works. Just as it does here.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : I make statements that are backed up by history on every single country in existence and that has existed. Power corrupts, and there is no greater power than government. There is corruption because there is no checks of balances. With charities there is.
Again, if you don't agree with a charity, you have a CHOICE! You can choose something else. You choose to go with what you agree with. What if I don't agree with abortions, but my money is used to fund them?
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 I've heard your choice argument, don't worry. In your society, I will. But if the general consensus is that faggots are evil, how much money do you really think an organisation that provides for gays will really get? Not much. The government cannot discriminate. They have to give aid to anyone, no matter political views, sexual orientation or social status. At least, that's how it should be, and how it is in some countries.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago
@AsifIcarebear3 : They cant discriminate? If so many people think gay people are evil, then how whats to stop the government? If you are going down the road that SO many people hate gays, to the point that charities will not get much money to help, then you cant seriously think the government will magically go be nonbias. Governments are bias to politics. If they wont get voted for if they help gays, they wont. I cant understand this logic here.
LinuxGeek350 11 months ago
@LinuxGeek350 Why are Scandinavian countries not absolutely falling apart? Seeing as how "every single country in existence and that has existed" does so when they adopt a welfare-state-model it's odd that they're somehow still up and running.
AsifIcarebear3 11 months ago