My only arguement is that Messi isn't fullproof. Give him more respect/space on the ball and allow him to commit to his side FIRST. Defenders have stopped rushing at CR for this same reason. Because its much harder to commit a defender and thus beat him if he's determined not to commit until you do. The whole point of "tricks" is to commit the defender or at least make them hesitate. Tricks aren't showboating exclusively. Thats all I'm trying to say really.
As far as beating 6-7 players, I'm guessing you're refferring to those clips where 2 or 3 defenders wildly slide after him and miss completely. You're failing to notice that that alone doesn't constitute "beating" a defender especially 1s who overcommit and beat themselves. Almost all those tackles force Messi away in a safer direction towards another defender. Seeing as his shot is weak forcing him to run along the 18 line & not penetrate into the box reduces his effectiveness considerably.
Those 2-3 defenders are the victim of his lighting quick feet. You know whats coming but its near impossible to stop without fouling.
Messi has a hard shot indeed. Watch his goal vs Osasuna last season and his goal vs brazil in the under 17 world cup. Not quite on the same level as Teemu Tawio or Mark Van Bommel but hard indeed :)
You're missing the point. Those "lightning quick feet" are being channeled into more defenders and away from the goal directly. I'm not talking about stopping him altogether neccesarily. Making the other team play predictably and thus be more defendable is the goal. You can do this with a single dribbling player but that often forces you to deveote more players wherein lies and the a great advantage any dribbler gives his team. Open players. And one or two hard shots does not a striker make.
Funneling players into less dangerous spaces. It makes perfect sense and every good team does it in one way or another. If you can force the opposition to play the ball into smaller compact areas you can effectively stifle "open" attacking play and use numbers to your advantage. The job of the defense is to compact play whereas offenses try to keep it open with more room to work with. Its much easier to invite passes into less dangerous areas. Dribbling can ruin this as it opens things up more.
Tricks are essentially the epitome of ball control my friend. Some of them to a degree that learning them yields diminishing returns but rollover, stepover, chop, etc are ball control believe it or not. Are you implying Ronaldo has a bad first touch? Far from it. And furthermore, dribbling accuracy (which means what exactly) is way more difficult on Ronaldo's part as his pace is that much better. The faster you go the less ball control you'll have or Ronaldo would be maiming everyone.
No, no no lool tricks are totally seprate to ball control.
Ball control requires precision, compsure and much practice and consistency.
Stuff like tricks such as step overs etc.. are along the same exact lines of learning a dance move. TBH learing that stupid solja boy dance is the same as learning a step over, feint etc...
When i play football i can do many tricks like ratface with relative ease but can't dribble to a high standard. Drogba can't dribble well but can do many tricks also.
TBH all ball skills are relevant and overlap/enhance each other. Juggling tricks enhance ball control even if you'd never use it in a game. Precision, compusure,...muchpractice/consistencyblahblah all of that can just as easily be applied to what you call "tricks". So an elastico is a trick that requires no ball control? Tell Robinho that stepovers are a dance, essentially, a showboat move without real game applications. If you can do moves and aren't beating people ur to slow or to predictable
LOL Robinho knows his step overs are pretty much just showboating. But he likes to play like that. Remember Messi can do all the tricks robinho does but he dosen't need them.
I like Showboating and skills but it's not hard to do, beating 6-7 players is genuis. Doing a few tricks is rather easy.
Robinho said in an interview that his style Brazillian soccer in fact was to respect your opponent but always play with boldness, thus Ginga. Showboating is disrespectful and stepovers r far from useless showboating. Being able to do stepovers (other moves aswell) and applying them are 2 different dimensions. I've never seen Messi apply more than body feints. Being so short and quick he's very difficult to keep up with & dfndrs overcommit. Then again his top speed/shot power r marginal at best.
Like i said, in other interviews with Messi's teammates at barca they have all said messi is more than caperble at doing step overs and much more but he dosen't need them. You don't see Robinho jinking past 4-5 defenders at a time because it's exceptional hard to do at the top level. Ask yourself, why bother doing tricks which is to fool just one defender on a one on one than just dribbling past them?
Ofcourse their different but as I said out of all them they're the most similar. The combinations of stepovers, the chop, the rabona, the haircut . . . Anyway, saying one is better technically is such a broad statement it can't even be addressed. "Technically", "technique" could be applied to any number of skill sets both of these guys possess. Basically, to say Quaresma is better "technically" is either a justication cop-out or u really need to qualify that word better at the very least.
U do know out of all the now famous players to come out of sporting lisbon academy Quaresma and Ronaldo are by far the most similar? I just don't see any justification for braggin about him and villifyng CR. Then again you never responded to my PM anyway.
Yes they both use many tricks but they're different!
Quaresma is VERY much a winger who's insticts are to cross. Ratface is an attacker who best played on the wing where he has space to operate.
Quaresma dosen't have ratface's pace and is a far better crosser of the ball, ratface is a better finisher.
Quaresma is better techincally and has a move called the Trivela in which he caan put an insanne amount of curl on the ball with the outside of the foot.
2011/2012 uefa europe league 2nd round: braga vs beşiktaş
go q7
zomb1e89 2 months ago
My only arguement is that Messi isn't fullproof. Give him more respect/space on the ball and allow him to commit to his side FIRST. Defenders have stopped rushing at CR for this same reason. Because its much harder to commit a defender and thus beat him if he's determined not to commit until you do. The whole point of "tricks" is to commit the defender or at least make them hesitate. Tricks aren't showboating exclusively. Thats all I'm trying to say really.
hcdangerfield211 2 years ago
As far as beating 6-7 players, I'm guessing you're refferring to those clips where 2 or 3 defenders wildly slide after him and miss completely. You're failing to notice that that alone doesn't constitute "beating" a defender especially 1s who overcommit and beat themselves. Almost all those tackles force Messi away in a safer direction towards another defender. Seeing as his shot is weak forcing him to run along the 18 line & not penetrate into the box reduces his effectiveness considerably.
hcdangerfield211 2 years ago
Those 2-3 defenders are the victim of his lighting quick feet. You know whats coming but its near impossible to stop without fouling.
Messi has a hard shot indeed. Watch his goal vs Osasuna last season and his goal vs brazil in the under 17 world cup. Not quite on the same level as Teemu Tawio or Mark Van Bommel but hard indeed :)
nocternalD 2 years ago
You're missing the point. Those "lightning quick feet" are being channeled into more defenders and away from the goal directly. I'm not talking about stopping him altogether neccesarily. Making the other team play predictably and thus be more defendable is the goal. You can do this with a single dribbling player but that often forces you to deveote more players wherein lies and the a great advantage any dribbler gives his team. Open players. And one or two hard shots does not a striker make.
hcdangerfield211 2 years ago
this has been a good debate but i have lost you at the end there sorry lol
nocternalD 2 years ago
Lost me like I didn't make sense or I'm not following what you said.
hcdangerfield211 2 years ago
you didn't make much sense lol. anyway were going to keep going on and on so lets agree to disagree.
nocternalD 2 years ago
Funneling players into less dangerous spaces. It makes perfect sense and every good team does it in one way or another. If you can force the opposition to play the ball into smaller compact areas you can effectively stifle "open" attacking play and use numbers to your advantage. The job of the defense is to compact play whereas offenses try to keep it open with more room to work with. Its much easier to invite passes into less dangerous areas. Dribbling can ruin this as it opens things up more.
hcdangerfield211 2 years ago
ok now i understand.
What you said is true but it's much easier said than done when taking on Messi.
nocternalD 2 years ago
Tricks are essentially the epitome of ball control my friend. Some of them to a degree that learning them yields diminishing returns but rollover, stepover, chop, etc are ball control believe it or not. Are you implying Ronaldo has a bad first touch? Far from it. And furthermore, dribbling accuracy (which means what exactly) is way more difficult on Ronaldo's part as his pace is that much better. The faster you go the less ball control you'll have or Ronaldo would be maiming everyone.
hcdangerfield211 2 years ago
No, no no lool tricks are totally seprate to ball control.
Ball control requires precision, compsure and much practice and consistency.
Stuff like tricks such as step overs etc.. are along the same exact lines of learning a dance move. TBH learing that stupid solja boy dance is the same as learning a step over, feint etc...
When i play football i can do many tricks like ratface with relative ease but can't dribble to a high standard. Drogba can't dribble well but can do many tricks also.
nocternalD 2 years ago
TBH all ball skills are relevant and overlap/enhance each other. Juggling tricks enhance ball control even if you'd never use it in a game. Precision, compusure,...muchpractice/consistencyblahblah all of that can just as easily be applied to what you call "tricks". So an elastico is a trick that requires no ball control? Tell Robinho that stepovers are a dance, essentially, a showboat move without real game applications. If you can do moves and aren't beating people ur to slow or to predictable
hcdangerfield211 2 years ago
@hcdangerfield211
LOL Robinho knows his step overs are pretty much just showboating. But he likes to play like that. Remember Messi can do all the tricks robinho does but he dosen't need them.
I like Showboating and skills but it's not hard to do, beating 6-7 players is genuis. Doing a few tricks is rather easy.
nocternalD 2 years ago
Robinho said in an interview that his style Brazillian soccer in fact was to respect your opponent but always play with boldness, thus Ginga. Showboating is disrespectful and stepovers r far from useless showboating. Being able to do stepovers (other moves aswell) and applying them are 2 different dimensions. I've never seen Messi apply more than body feints. Being so short and quick he's very difficult to keep up with & dfndrs overcommit. Then again his top speed/shot power r marginal at best.
hcdangerfield211 2 years ago
Like i said, in other interviews with Messi's teammates at barca they have all said messi is more than caperble at doing step overs and much more but he dosen't need them. You don't see Robinho jinking past 4-5 defenders at a time because it's exceptional hard to do at the top level. Ask yourself, why bother doing tricks which is to fool just one defender on a one on one than just dribbling past them?
nocternalD 2 years ago
Ofcourse their different but as I said out of all them they're the most similar. The combinations of stepovers, the chop, the rabona, the haircut . . . Anyway, saying one is better technically is such a broad statement it can't even be addressed. "Technically", "technique" could be applied to any number of skill sets both of these guys possess. Basically, to say Quaresma is better "technically" is either a justication cop-out or u really need to qualify that word better at the very least.
hcdangerfield211 2 years ago
Nah, Alexis Sanchez is proberly more similar to ratface. There are others that i can't be fucked to mention
when i mean technically better i mean in terms of
Ball control, first touch and dribbling accuracy.
Stuff like, rabonas, tricks etc.. are actually totally seperate to ball control.
nocternalD 2 years ago
U do know out of all the now famous players to come out of sporting lisbon academy Quaresma and Ronaldo are by far the most similar? I just don't see any justification for braggin about him and villifyng CR. Then again you never responded to my PM anyway.
hcdangerfield211 2 years ago
Yes they both use many tricks but they're different!
Quaresma is VERY much a winger who's insticts are to cross. Ratface is an attacker who best played on the wing where he has space to operate.
Quaresma dosen't have ratface's pace and is a far better crosser of the ball, ratface is a better finisher.
Quaresma is better techincally and has a move called the Trivela in which he caan put an insanne amount of curl on the ball with the outside of the foot.
nocternalD 2 years ago