Fred, great videos, I, II and III. Just one question, why is Kamokoi so negative and arrogant? Oh well, maybe nobody will listen to him...I wonder why. Great to see you and Melinda again, it was way too long in between trips. Keep up the good work! Duane
@Fredgbscuba I'm not sure what part of this comment you think is false. Do you deny that parrotfishes are effective grazers? Or do you deny that lionfish are eating them? Both of these claims are backed up by real-life published data (not to mention my own personal observations). It doesn't matter how many hours you spend underwater, these are known facts.
Look at my videos again. Parrotfish do not eat any seaweed other than some small amounts of Halimeda. Our reef was completely overgrown with Microdictyon and Lobophora before the introduction of Lionfish, in spite of an overabundance of parrotfish. While you say you have done stomach content studies on lionfish (which means you were not underwater, BTW) and observed certain things, have you done stomach content studies on parrotfish? And if so, what species and at what size?
@Fredgbscuba Since the Diadema die-off in the early 1980s, parrotfishes have become the dominant grazer on most Caribbean coral reefs. See R. C. Carpenter, Ecol. Monogr. 56, 345 (1986) and P. J. Mumby et al, Science. 311, 5757 (2006). This is well established in the scientific literature.
@Fredgbscuba I have done stomach content analyses on lionfish. I have also conducted over 1000 scientific research dives over the last five years, specifically for the purpose of investigating invasive lionfish and their effects on native communities. I do not say this because I want to get into a bragging match with you. However, I do want you to understand that I have spent a considerable amount of time and effort towards understanding this invasion.
@Fredgbscuba Respectfully, your opinion, although it may be based on thousands of hours of underwater time, as you claim, goes completely against the hundreds of thousands of hours of underwater time that have been put in by dedicated coral-reef ecologists over the years. These folks don't just observe and make guesses about what's happening, they conduct numerous controlled experiments and base their conclusions on the results.
When I started diving, male and female parrotfish were classified as separate species and everyone 'knew' they ate coral and crapped sand. In fact there were calculations stating that a large male parrotfish would be responsible for 5 tons of beach sand each. This was considered scientific fact. Just recently two species of damselfish were determined to be one species. Knowledge marches on, you should not confuse a literature search for research.
@Fredgbscuba Parrotfishes do eat a certain amount of coral (usually this is dead coral skeleton covered in turf algae rather than live coral), and they do "crap sand" and contribute to beach sand accumulation. They also eat a large proportion of fleshy macroalgae. I'm not sure how this is relevant to the discussion.
@Fredgbscuba As you say, knowledge marches on. However, the fact that science is in a constant state of refinement doesn't mean that we should throw out hypothesis that have a lot of empirical support because we don't like them. That's why rigorous experimentation and quantitative observations are conducted. You have done neither, and yet you expect folks to throw out supported hypotheses based on your best guesses as to why you are seeing what you are seeing.
@Fredgbscuba The fact that science corrects itself does not represent a good argument for ignoring it. You should not confuse your undocumented unquantified observations as research.
@kamokoi.....i'm not experienced in any way of this area.......but what i do want to know is, why is most of your comments about other people's work, and research with only of few of actually your own research. How about you post some videos to educate the rest of us, and explain your research and observation and not some other people's work, facts, or hypotheses. To me, this video shows the sea life that Fred has recorded which also shows the actions with him explaining it.
Lionfish are actually very effective predators of small crustaceans. Lionfish are just as likely to prey on native crustaceans (including the small crabs in your video) as are native predators. Therefore, your logic (that lionfish will reduce the number of native predators, in turn reducing predation on native crabs, in turn increasing grazing of seaweeds, in turn benefiting corals) is inherently flawed.
You really need to spend more time underwater and less time reading stuff by people who also don't spend enough time underwater. Another 5 to 10 thousand hours underwater and you might start to see what is going on.
@Fredgbscuba Are you really so quick to deny the experience of someone you know nothing about? How do you know how many hours I've spent underwater? I've dissected thousands of lionfish stomachs, and many of them contain small crabs. Do you deny that lionfish are eating native crustaceans?
I do not deny that lionfish eat. Why do you deny that everything else eats? When you find crabs in a lionfish stomach, do you determine species? If so, I'd be interested. If not, it is not significant data.
You were quite quick to deny my education, experience and observations, just saying...
@Fredgbscuba Obviously lionfish eat. Obviously other native organisms eat. I am not, "...denying that everything else eats." There is, however, no evidence (quantitative or experimental) that small crustaceans (like the small crabs in your video) contribute significantly to overall grazing rates on coral reefs. It is great that you are thinking outside the box. However, I don't think that you should be presenting your ideas as if they are facts without the data to back them up.
@Fredgbscuba We have found crabs and crab parts that we have identified as belonging to members of the genus Mithrax (clinging crabs) among others. We do not have verified species level identifications, however I do not believe that this makes the data insignificant as you suggest. Do you?
@Fredgbscuba I do not deny your education, experience or observations. I do deny your arguments in favor of hypotheses supported solely by anecdotal evidence when they go against hypotheses that are backed by quantitative data and experiments conducted by scientists (particularly those that have made it through the rigorous peer-review process).
Very informative. I have been reading over the last couple days the lion fish thread on scubaboard and enjoy your point of view. Keep up the great work!
Fred, great videos, I, II and III. Just one question, why is Kamokoi so negative and arrogant? Oh well, maybe nobody will listen to him...I wonder why. Great to see you and Melinda again, it was way too long in between trips. Keep up the good work! Duane
duanefey 1 month ago
Great video!
domdiver1 2 months ago
In fact, some of the most effective grazers of seaweeds are parrotfishes, a known prey of invasive lionfish.
kamokoi 2 months ago
Not true, totally not true. Stayed tuned for upcoming video.
Fredgbscuba 2 months ago
@Fredgbscuba I'm not sure what part of this comment you think is false. Do you deny that parrotfishes are effective grazers? Or do you deny that lionfish are eating them? Both of these claims are backed up by real-life published data (not to mention my own personal observations). It doesn't matter how many hours you spend underwater, these are known facts.
kamokoi 2 months ago
Look at my videos again. Parrotfish do not eat any seaweed other than some small amounts of Halimeda. Our reef was completely overgrown with Microdictyon and Lobophora before the introduction of Lionfish, in spite of an overabundance of parrotfish. While you say you have done stomach content studies on lionfish (which means you were not underwater, BTW) and observed certain things, have you done stomach content studies on parrotfish? And if so, what species and at what size?
Fredgbscuba 2 months ago
@Fredgbscuba Since the Diadema die-off in the early 1980s, parrotfishes have become the dominant grazer on most Caribbean coral reefs. See R. C. Carpenter, Ecol. Monogr. 56, 345 (1986) and P. J. Mumby et al, Science. 311, 5757 (2006). This is well established in the scientific literature.
kamokoi 2 months ago
@Fredgbscuba I have done stomach content analyses on lionfish. I have also conducted over 1000 scientific research dives over the last five years, specifically for the purpose of investigating invasive lionfish and their effects on native communities. I do not say this because I want to get into a bragging match with you. However, I do want you to understand that I have spent a considerable amount of time and effort towards understanding this invasion.
kamokoi 2 months ago
@Fredgbscuba Respectfully, your opinion, although it may be based on thousands of hours of underwater time, as you claim, goes completely against the hundreds of thousands of hours of underwater time that have been put in by dedicated coral-reef ecologists over the years. These folks don't just observe and make guesses about what's happening, they conduct numerous controlled experiments and base their conclusions on the results.
kamokoi 2 months ago
When I started diving, male and female parrotfish were classified as separate species and everyone 'knew' they ate coral and crapped sand. In fact there were calculations stating that a large male parrotfish would be responsible for 5 tons of beach sand each. This was considered scientific fact. Just recently two species of damselfish were determined to be one species. Knowledge marches on, you should not confuse a literature search for research.
Fredgbscuba 2 months ago
@Fredgbscuba Parrotfishes do eat a certain amount of coral (usually this is dead coral skeleton covered in turf algae rather than live coral), and they do "crap sand" and contribute to beach sand accumulation. They also eat a large proportion of fleshy macroalgae. I'm not sure how this is relevant to the discussion.
kamokoi 2 months ago
@Fredgbscuba As you say, knowledge marches on. However, the fact that science is in a constant state of refinement doesn't mean that we should throw out hypothesis that have a lot of empirical support because we don't like them. That's why rigorous experimentation and quantitative observations are conducted. You have done neither, and yet you expect folks to throw out supported hypotheses based on your best guesses as to why you are seeing what you are seeing.
kamokoi 2 months ago
@Fredgbscuba The fact that science corrects itself does not represent a good argument for ignoring it. You should not confuse your undocumented unquantified observations as research.
kamokoi 2 months ago
@kamokoi.....i'm not experienced in any way of this area.......but what i do want to know is, why is most of your comments about other people's work, and research with only of few of actually your own research. How about you post some videos to educate the rest of us, and explain your research and observation and not some other people's work, facts, or hypotheses. To me, this video shows the sea life that Fred has recorded which also shows the actions with him explaining it.
NaguShiiaRen 2 months ago
Lionfish are actually very effective predators of small crustaceans. Lionfish are just as likely to prey on native crustaceans (including the small crabs in your video) as are native predators. Therefore, your logic (that lionfish will reduce the number of native predators, in turn reducing predation on native crabs, in turn increasing grazing of seaweeds, in turn benefiting corals) is inherently flawed.
kamokoi 2 months ago
You really need to spend more time underwater and less time reading stuff by people who also don't spend enough time underwater. Another 5 to 10 thousand hours underwater and you might start to see what is going on.
Fredgbscuba 2 months ago
@Fredgbscuba Are you really so quick to deny the experience of someone you know nothing about? How do you know how many hours I've spent underwater? I've dissected thousands of lionfish stomachs, and many of them contain small crabs. Do you deny that lionfish are eating native crustaceans?
kamokoi 2 months ago
I do not deny that lionfish eat. Why do you deny that everything else eats? When you find crabs in a lionfish stomach, do you determine species? If so, I'd be interested. If not, it is not significant data.
You were quite quick to deny my education, experience and observations, just saying...
Fredgbscuba 2 months ago
@Fredgbscuba Obviously lionfish eat. Obviously other native organisms eat. I am not, "...denying that everything else eats." There is, however, no evidence (quantitative or experimental) that small crustaceans (like the small crabs in your video) contribute significantly to overall grazing rates on coral reefs. It is great that you are thinking outside the box. However, I don't think that you should be presenting your ideas as if they are facts without the data to back them up.
kamokoi 2 months ago
@Fredgbscuba We have found crabs and crab parts that we have identified as belonging to members of the genus Mithrax (clinging crabs) among others. We do not have verified species level identifications, however I do not believe that this makes the data insignificant as you suggest. Do you?
kamokoi 2 months ago
@Fredgbscuba I do not deny your education, experience or observations. I do deny your arguments in favor of hypotheses supported solely by anecdotal evidence when they go against hypotheses that are backed by quantitative data and experiments conducted by scientists (particularly those that have made it through the rigorous peer-review process).
kamokoi 2 months ago
Excellent description on what actually takes place on our reef in a balanced biosphere...
shamierolle1 4 months ago
Very informative. I have been reading over the last couple days the lion fish thread on scubaboard and enjoy your point of view. Keep up the great work!
bmcssteve 4 months ago
Excellent video, Fred! It is very informative, and interesting to watch.
looneytoobs 5 months ago