I am one to have faith, one to believe,but I am also one to know that if I was born In India I OBVIOUSLY would not be the same religion I am today.And for that I think we can all learn something
Not only about faith but about coming together as one.We don't all have to have the same views,nor are you right or anyone else.It is clear that you,me,and everyone else could have different views based on where we grew up.Its not about who's right,its about WHATS RIGHT.And treating others well is right
I'm sorry, but you don't make any sense. I'm glad we live in a diverse society. I don't like nor do I respect fundamentalist individuals pushing their views on others who are content to live as they live, to question the meaning of life, and to challenge those who are sure they have the truth. I prefer to get along with people, so I will just wish you well and say goodnight. : )
@TheAmestris Again, most people who label the Universe 'god' don't know that we are in the Universe and the Universe is in us. The incredible vastness makes many feel insignificant, which is why people label it for emotional reasons. But you've deluded yourself into thinking that I hate people who use labels. I could care less what others label or believe.
@TheAmestris Labeling another person 'friend' or 'mother' is not the same thing a labeling the Universe. It wouldn't make sense to label the Universe 'father'' or 'love'. Other people try to spin this around by saying, "you don't actually need to label the women who gave birth to you 'mother' either, do you?" But these are people who completely missed the point because it's not the same thing. You don't need to label the Universe to express a connection. Cont...
@TheAmestris "Reality is so diverse that there will never be enough labels, not to mention the fact that labels are a part of reality, so stop complaining and start labeling."
What does any of that have to do with what I said? I don't have a problem with people labeling. But it doesn't make sense to label the Universe 'god' or 'love' when it already has a label - Universe. Slapping the Universe with another label doesn't add anything new, and people do it for emotional reasons. Cont...
Michael Krasny: The things children endure. It never fails to break my heart. It hurts to imagine this man as a young boy suffering this. I wish I still believed in a loving, powerful, protecting God, but I do not. I see no evidence of this in the world. In a way, it frees me up from resenting an omnipotent figure who is supposed to be there, always on the watch. All-seeing, all-knowing, yet this "entity" stands by and does not assist, come to the aid, etc.
@ScotlandMy LOL, it is so funny that I have heard what you just said from so many people. Seriously when will you realize that the attitude towards suffering is not representing God's character but yours. For the same suffering, some people come to realize the existence of God and found hope in suffering. The other people becomes pessimistic and starts to deny God's beauty, grace and mercy, but blames God for what happened. I have sympathy for you, if you are just making up human excuses.
@wormite "The other people becomes pessimistic and starts to deny God's beauty, grace and mercy, but blames God for what happened."
Perhaps people do blame God, but I've never seen it. I think you're just confused. What philosophers and theologians call "the problem of evil" is an old and well-recognized problem. It's not about blaming God; it's about recognizing that there are things in the world that one would not expect if there were an all-powerful, loving God.
To be honest, you can argue in million hours about whether God exists or who God is, what character he has. But make no mistake in estimating God as someone you would fully understand, ever, unless you think you are the creator of everything and yourself. The relationship between God and us is like Shakespeare and Hamlet, Hamlet would never be able to understand what Shakespeare is thinking, unless, of course, Shakespeare writes something about himself into the story.
@wormite Gods in books or gods that have attributes attributed to them by man are easilly done away with. They do not exist. The more vague god concept, the concept that is far away, blurry and ill defined is rather a stupid concept to argue about seeing as there is no evidence in any direction that we should even consider such an entity.
@retepvosnul If you describe God as something that you can not characterize with any kind of men's thinking. Then you are saying basically we can't understand even a bit of God, that would be true if the creator of everything does not want that to happen. But your very understanding of God being not knowable is also not possible. Realize that by saying God with any human interpretation does not exist, you just attributed attributes to God by yourself, as a man. Sorry, it is not easily done with.
@wormite You did not fully grasp what I said. I clearly stated that any and all god concepts we know of, namely the man made variety, are most likely entirely false constructs. This is no esoteric hypothetical reasoning, it is just the fact of the matter.
Any other potential god concept you could argue for outside this group are so vague, remote, detached and unlike anything considered worth having faith in, that it simply hasn't got merit even considering them as they add nothing of substance.
@retepvosnul LOL are you trying to say that you are claiming all the beliefs are essentially wrong as "a fact of matter"? Then let me ask you this, why would it be that you happened to be the one knowing exactly your understanding of God, either as different from all the existing understandings, or as "remote, detached, and unlike anything worth having faith in", is correct? See in the matter of God, you can not avoid making universal conclusion, and by doing so, you just had your own God.
@wormite Yes the Abrahamic accounts on which the 3 major religions are based, when interpreted literally and that is what they are for, are factually wrong.
I never made a claim knowing a god, I made a claim not seeing one happen.
I postulated a hypothetical god like entity, one that could, with a stretch be considered "not completely impossible" unlike biblical entities.
I think you conclusion is absurd, it is just semantics around the word "god".
@retepvosnul I think I understand what you are saying now. You are postulating a God that is, even if it exists, has nothing to do with ME, and just let it exist in that remote, detached way. LOL I think what you mean is:"God, as long as you don't mess with me, we are fine", and you truly believe in that. Sadly my brother, that can not be true, the very fact that Abrahamic religions accounts 70% of the global population already means God is messing with you.
@wormite And do you think that 3 radically different interpretations of the same mythology, split up in a myriad of groups with various degrees and methods of practitioning with a combined score of 70% actually believe the same thing ? It has been shown that the variety of god concept within 1 community will vary enormously. It just shows, what we know, that humans are inclined to have religious tendencies, not that any of it actually had any truth potential. That is bugger logic.
@retepvosnul Nonetheless all these 70% are claiming there is only one God, which is still different from the atheist's understanding. And I think the believers of any of these 3 religions have no problem dealing with other beliefs, for them simply, others are wrong! It is atheist who can't deal with this, who often claims that they are all partially right, and create a God for themselves that are non-existent, or remote. And why in the world natural selection would make people monotheistic?
@wormite No, that's why Jerusalem is such a fun party town !
Your argumentation is bogus, these numbers mean nothing.
Selection did not make people religious and especially not monotheistic. The latter is just a random development. The tendency for religion or superstition are "mis firings" of an evolved sense of cause and effect that helps the brain make snap description based on a small amount of information.
Many good papers are available on the net for reading on the subject.
@retepvosnul And btw, I think only atheists need a God that is vaguely or ill defined, which is their definition of God. They need this definition, to some extent, so that they can keep God away and out of the business. Depending on your own understanding to explain everything(without God ) is good, sometimes, but at other times can be very improper. All the other religions either have a book or ritual to define God in some very descriptive way, being God connected with Jesus or Muhammad.
@wormite Are we calling Atheism a religion again ? come on, you can do better then that. Seeing as that really isn't an argument you could just take my word for it that I really understand that there very likely is no faith and worship demanding god. Be he known by scripture or unknown on all accounts.
I have no need for such a construct in reality. They do not fit.
@retepvosnul Well, if you don't like the word religion, which is ironically made into a bad name by atheists, and believers who disrespected other beliefs, let's call it faith. The way I see it, atheism is just another faith, which does not necessarily stop bad things to happen, as its believers hope for. (Which is the same as all the other beliefs). And some of the believers in atheism is just as disrespectful towards other religions as some of Christians, which I hate.
@wormite Religions have done that all by themselves, I'm afraid. Any motivation individuals have regarding religion is another matter all together. You see, atheists and agnostics are not a group as such.
Even if not believing in something impossible is "faith", at least it would not be meritless.
You assume that religion automatically deserves respect. I respect you right to believe, but I see no reason why to respect the nature/institution of that believe.
@retepvosnul I know one thing for sure, in China, millions of people that have beliefs that claimed the existence of God are persecuted, hanged, and shot, and you think atheists and agnostics are PERFECT in this! Yes, even denying the existence is faith, unless you have concrete evidence for everyone that they can repeat your experience to produce the same result of the non-existence of it. For the matter of God, that's not true. Respect is to be earned, but don't disrespect out of bias.
@wormite So now not only am I a member of a group, but also a homicidal one. I think that you are behaving a bit like a feather brain on this issue. Is also does not really deal with the debate, so I'm lending towards assuming that it is no more that a retarded stab at trolling. Lets ignore this non sense and continue on topic.
Could you refrain from off topic rants and baseless accusations towards my person? It would keep the board so much cleaner.
@retepvosnul Sorry if I gave you the impression I was in any sense attacking you personally, I was just trying to show that atheism is not better in the sense of being cruel, it is the same with all other religions, and we have a tie here. I did not mean either you as an individual would commit anything bad, or suggesting you would do something because you are an atheist, that would be so stereotyping. I have personally been atheist for 24 years too.
@wormite 1. You group all atheists, and secondly you tell me that WE do a great job in genocide or what not. Pull the other one if you think you can weasel yourself out of that one. It is poor but all to common debating tactic.
It was precisely that, a baseless rant directed at my person.
@retepvosnul If you think I personally hate you therefore I would be discussing all these with you. What can I say, hopefully I am not that limited and obsessed with attacking someone. In that case it would not help you to discuss with me. I am not saying all atheists are bad people, or, all believers are good and perfect. Please understand that in every belief, people can somehow twist a good thing into cruelty. This is a "fact of matter" if u read history. No one is better in this.
@retepvosnul LOL it is interesting for an archaeologist to be having such an attitude. I am not trying to anger you in anyway, and I apologize if you think so. But it is the truth that we as human beings have something in us that eventually can base our cruel behaviors on all good reasons. And it is shown in history again and again. Oftentimes bad things started with a good purposes. Even for Starlin/Hitler's case.
@wormite You argue 2 gods in 1 argument. The god you believe in and the one that you could potentially believe in. This does not work. For some theoretical god concepts we, indeed, have no evidence against. This obviously does not mean that this automatically translates to any other god concept. The fact that we have no proof against the bunny-god of abdominal bacteria does not mean that we have non against the god of the bible. Keep your god concepts separated !
@retepvosnul I hope I can be clearer here, but I have always been arguing about the God(s) the religions believe in, more specifically, the biblical God. And I hope you realize that by denying such a God's existence, you are creating your own understanding of this biblical God. Even if you are talking about Abrahamic religions, they are the same God from old testament. I just checked, sorry for the mistake, Abrahamic 50%, 70% is for all religions.
Sad! Why is it those who become academic, itellectual and from that become agnostic or atheist think that they can't be spiritual, emotional? Is it that they connect emotions with religion only. A person can feel elation at a beautiful sunrise or sunset, seing the millions of stars on an inkblot sky without attributing it to religion or deity.
@humanist7117 I can answer this one, because human weakness is to box his knowledge and make what he knows a tool, then uses this tool without feeling anything. Learning something without the happiness of enjoying the knowledge can quickly harden a person's heart. In our education system, it is the pressure and fame at stake, people already forgot the beauty and appreciation of the knowledge, just the same as a lot of religions. Real scientists are passionate about this world and very spiritual.
i lost nothing when i stop believing except for the fear and guilt. science offers plenty of stuff to keep one self spiritually fulfilled, such as the large scales of time or space involved in the universe or the emergence of our sense of beauty through natural selection. if this guy does not find any of science awe inspiring he has simply no sense for the numinous
@emcsqrt To be honest, you are definitely not someone who loves science. For someone who really enjoys physics and maths, you can only be so amazed by the beauty of the world which is definitely not created by human's effort, but by something with so much harmony. The whole science is about observing and witnessing the existing elegant laws of the world. It will be so lame to claim that because we are beautiful therefore what we found is graceful. But the rules behind are from a wonderful God.
@wormite - Who named you "anointed" to set everyone straight on this board?
You keep responding to individuals telling them where they are in error in their lives/outlook. Your comments don't provide any real wisdom. You can' t explain anything, really.
@ScotlandMy It is sad that you would think that way, all I am trying is to use my own experience to show that atheism has its holes and traps, and in a lot of cases bigger than other beliefs, it is just not as good as you imagine. I said so because I came from an atheist country. I do not wish to change anyone, but I do want to warn against the wrong doings and the horrible results. If I did something good to cause blaming on myself, I'll live with it. As long as it is beneficial to you.
Agnostics are closet atheists. They only hold that view, I suspect, in order to appease the religious. By nullifying the argument about god's existence, and therefore the legitimacy of religion they actually undermine the true debate - the delusion, divisiveness, and downright stupidity it demands and the complete lack of evidence for any deity whatsoever.
@dubaipete Try living in China, Russia, Cuba, and North Korea, which are called the enemies by your new liberals. There we are all atheists, and see what happens to your view of the righteousness of atheists. Believing in God or not, in this world, has absolutely nothing to do with your possible cruel attitudes towards others. I have seen atheists do the most horrible thing to people, and because they believe if they can get by in this life, they get by forever, they are more cruel.
god is your subcoscious. you [and it] are part of the universal mind. you need believe nothing to have faith. just listen to your inner voice and you will know religion
How moving!!!! I think that many of us have found a bit a sadness with the knowledge that we have found (or lost). It is a maturation that I hope that mankind can experience. We might miss religion, but should let it go. We must; our existence depends on it.
What a wuss. He is still afraid to call his teacher a thug. If the events he describes occurred today, the 'teacher' would be in jail.
Sweden banned all forms of child corporeal punishment in the early 1960s. That generation is now the least religious on earth. Proof that religion is and always has been a lame excuse for adults to beat up children. Never mind god, what kind of adult thinks it's alright to beat children?
@geezzerboy I grew up in an atheist family, and we looked down upon the people who are religious, and we beat our child. I remember that I see parents who are absolutely atheist going to school, telling the teacher :" Please beat my child as much as you want to so they can learn, we will thank you for that". Do not tell me being religious or not has something to do with beating the child, actually only in certain cultures you start to see this phenomenon calling beating children abuse.
@ScotlandMy Why is it insane? I have asked my German, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Polish, French friends, they all say in their culture you will see the child's ass getting whooped. In Chinese culture it is even said, if they child is not properly educated with physical method, it is the father's fault. Only in US culture have I ever seen something called child abuse ... All the other cultures are either neglecting it, or advocating it. I don't even know which is better now, beat them or not.
C.S. Lewis to this day, has encouragement for you, Mr. Krasny. While I understand your views intellectually, I don't swallow them as hook line and sinker. Neither should your hope.
Am I the only one really off put by someone saying mentioning the Founding Fathers makes them feel "like Glen Beck"? Come on, people, I'm not a fan of Mr.Beck and I think noting the Founders were deists does not make you some kind of Beck fan.
@wormite Faith, by definition, is belief without evidence, or with evidence to the contrary, in which case the act of observation is rejected, so that belief can be preserved.
That must be one strange breed of logic, for it to prove one thing in one place and its negation in another, while in its global distribution strictly adheres to borders of states and ethnic groups.
You likely gained your faith for the reason most people do - upbringing || credulity
Faith in what? An irrational concept conceived before mankind got over his fear of death? Come now; what logic can be found in believing something without valid cause?
@Mitsuraga LOL, Calling faith irrational, tbh, I have been there too. I was a firm atheist and then agnostic person for 26 years before I finally realized that there is no way to justify your own rationality as reflecting either truth or beneficial to anyone. So tell me, if you are just rational for the purpose of rationality, what is your difference with the people who are believing just for the sake of belief? Aren't your own rationality just another religion you created for yourself?
I'd reply, if your argument made any sense. And anyway, you're clearly here to troll away at everyone with enough sense to not believe anything for which there is no proof, so say whatever you want about Jesus' award-winning smile and how it's so much neater than being rational. I'm done here.
I envy religious joy no more than I envy a heroin addict's trip.
We have a tendency to unfairly deprecate reality. Yes, it sucks sometimes. But for most of us in the Western world, it's usually pretty damn decent. To flee then to comforting religious delusions is to be totally unappreciative of the good that we already have.
@LeLimeLine If you are truly appreciative of what you have, you wouldn't have a single problem of the religious people at all. They are part of what you called "reality".
@wormite And religious people, like most everything else in reality, are great for the most part. Like I said, reality has some problems, but it is decent for most of us Westerners. And identifying a fault in religious people that can have dangerous consequences is not an equivalent dissatisfaction to that which motivates the religious to latch onto the monumental delusion of perpetual paternal monitoring by a deity. I would say I am more content with reality than most religious.
@wormite Thats what the mayan priest told his prisoner before he continued his ritual to rip out his still beating heart with an obsidian blade so the sun could continue to shine tommorrow.
@MilitantPeaceist I guess it could be, but when he suggested that most people lose faith for emotional reasons I lost interest. Is the whole thing like that?
@diomedes39 Well it is actually the truth, don't forget the majority of people are religious .. only some atheists are born, so to speak, most come to atheism from religion & often it is a turning point that does it.
The whole speech makes you think, it doesn't give you answers. It's not the holy grail ;)
@MilitantPeaceist Every single non-believer left the faith due to logical reasons and agree that emotional reasons aren't very good reasons at all when it comes to this.
Then why do so many react to religious people like the roles are reversed & see evil religious people?
"Every single non-believer left the faith due to logical reasons and agree that emotional reasons aren't very good reasons at all when it comes to this." - sorry, don't buy it at all. Have you asked all those people yourself?
@diomedes39 no, that's not true. There are several bad atheists out there who are atheists purely for illogical reasons. Example: hells angels who commit crimes and justify violent risky lifestyles because there is no god, there is no sin, etc. People do not just leave religion because of logical reasons. I did, but not all people do. You did, probably too. But not all people. There are plenty of idiot atheists out there
People just dont understand true religion. It is not about dogma. They dont know what faith is. Faith is not "believe in the impossible". The man Jesus never created a religion. He was killed by religious people. When humans understand this fact and just love each other as he said we will have a real revolution in this world. The people are blind and follow the false teachers. Jesus told only to follow the truth and nothing more. Wake up.
he had to read nietzsche and darwin, socrates and russell. very sophisticated! i didn't need to read any of those to come to the realization that the little man in the sky doesn't exist! it happened around the same time i started to question the existence of santa, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy!
Theodicy - a branch of theology (phylosophy), trying to find excuses for god, allowing, or even causing, bad things to happen to people, even believers; and coming up with unbelievably contrived, twisted reasoning...
The founding fathers were on the right way, shedding certain beliefs in god, they couldn't shed him entirely, because of years of conditioning - there must be 'something', 'somebody' who has started it all. Well, now we know better.
If God is infinite, then is not something else & God.
Religion alone sets out to divide the indivisible God concept into magical warring beings.
'worthy' & 'unworthy' are a supreme arrogance.
Religion is lifting a part above everything else, onto a throne to sit beside. begging God to be different, crying to God because it is not good enough in some way.
Religion defines itself as sin in it's own terms. God in a stick for authority.
Lost sheep in a superstitious landscape to be left behind them.
We atheists have thousands of reasons to feel this "spiritual" joy.
There is the wonder of nature, the awesome view of the universe delivered to us by science, true love with a life partner, parental love, friendship, achievement...
We don't need faith to have these things. Why does this guy envy anything? He need not. It is his for the taking.
Losing faith is like losing your virginity......you think about it, you wonder what it'll be like, will it be as good as they say etc....and then when it happens, you wonder why you waited so long.
God,what a sick teacher.I went to a Catholic school staffed only by nuns,and they never did anything like that to us.Why do people like that enter into fields in which they will have any interaction with kids?My heart goes out to the speaker.
"School corporal punishment" in wikipedia is a good article. The trend seems to be it is being outlawed by more and more countries...Britain in the late 80's. But the schools themselves are a punishment to the mind, body and emotions!
The US, where states started outlawing school torture early, (NJ in the 1860's) still hasn't finished the job, with many states still practicing it.
That's why I hate religion and I see it STEALING love and Goodness as properties of their gods. They stole the sense of community, the sense of getting together for the community, and ALL those things and poisoned it with their dogmas, and NOW, every time someone wants to get along and do good stuff, is ALWAYS related to religion.
I hope that, in the future, it could be seen as it really is: JUST DOGMAS. Love and Goodness are present in each one of us, and MUST be cultivated with KNOWLEDGE.
@TemporalOnline I sympathize with what you're trying to get at, but I think that you miss the point. People use symbols and narratives as a kind of shorthand to mediate the common bonds that tie community together. Occasionally faults in narratives get in the way of the bonds they represent, but more often, real conflicts are represented through those narratives. While dogma is arbitrary, so too are words, gestures, art, and all other forms of expression.
@TemporalOnline Yes you are right that LOVE and goodness are in everyone of us, but I wonder how far you would go about doing things to show them before you stop at the threshold of being selfishness. We all have limitations buddy, and people have different ways to push that limit.Try your best to understand others' ways instead of condemning them.
To understand enlightenment deism one should read Spinoza, particularly the first half of The Ethics.
It is not God as an absent ruler, it is rather that God is the universe.
Nature, everything.
Consider if the universe was a lego brick in a lego representation of Pi.
Questions of infinity out-scope themselves and are not trivial.
Faced with the seemingly infinite vastness of space and time, Pride pisses on what it cannot comprehend, proclaiming the fault is in the very properties required.
@marsCubed If god is the Universe, then why label it 'god'? Makes no sense. It already has a label - Universe or Nature. Slapping another label (a label - god - that means different things to different people) just clutters everything. Labeling something god doesn't prove a thing, nor does it explain.
Man: "Hey, my pen is God."
Boy: "What?!? Why call it God? It already has a label- pen."
The concept of an infinite states, infinite time.. did not come from religion etc. it came from the naturalists, ppl like Parmenides of ancient Greece.
It's the realm of mathematics & multiverses, least action as supreme elegance.
Religion persecuted such ideas as atheist for millennia & hijacked with twisted theology, as it attempts to do today with ID.
Sets of sets is more like geometry.. no big ape on a cloud necessary.
@TheLegendarySkeptic Why indeed! To identify the universe as God is to credit it as a thing worthy of reverence, awe, love, etc. It is not too different from calling a particular person a friend; to do so is not making a claim that that person is different from the one referred to by their given name; it merely recognizes a relationship to that person. All gods have names and are identified with different phenomenon. MarsCubed identifies his with the universe at large. No problem.
@hasatum I think you're missing the point. People can label the Universe all they want, but it doesn't change the fact that it's still The Universe. It's already labeled. You can label the Universe "friend," "god," "allah," or "pickachu" - none of those labels add anything new other than making people feel good. The Universe is grand and magnificent, but the incredible vastness makes a lot people feel insignificant. Sadly, this is why people create labels.
@TheLegendarySkeptic When I call you a "friend" it makes a great difference. It may describe no new feature of you per se, but then that's not the point. Rather, it's meant to represent my relationship with you to myself and others. Calling the universe by what largely amounts to a term of endearment is not an attempt to avert feelings of inadequacy if the term is describing sincere expression of a felt connection with the universe. Fair enough?
@hasatum You wouldn't label the Universe ' friend, ' would you? Sure, you can if you want, but it wouldn't make sense. So it's not the same thing as calling another person 'friend'. You don't need to label the Universe to express a felt connection. People who label the Universe (god, allah, love, spiritual, etc.) don't realize that we are in the Universe - and the Universe is in us. I don't have a problem with people slapping labels on things to make them feel good, though.
@TheLegendarySkeptic Why wouldn't someone call the universe their friend? It provides for us. As for applying labels to express connection, you don't actually need to label the woman who gave birth to you "mother" either, do you? Do we apply that label simply to "feel good"? A proper pantheist is very aware of their place as a part of the universe. That's why I mentioned expressing a connection.
@TheLegendarySkeptic because it helps pave the way for christians to become atheists without it being such an abrupt loss for them. Like how Einstein was a pantheists at some times.
@TheLegendarySkeptic People just don't want to have to admit "God" doesn't exist, so they therefore pretend that the word "God" can mean anything as a means of avoiding the admission. "God" is not the universe. "God" is not love. We have a word for the universe, it's universe. We have a word for love, it's love. "God" is a hypothetical conscious entity that supposedly designed and created the universe. That's what the word means. If you stoop to denying this, you've SEVERELY lost the argument.
@LeLimeLine It's funny that atheists think we can always fully comprehend or define the creator of the world just as being the creator of the world. It's as if Hamlet is saying:"I fully understand what you are thinking, Shakespeare". I call everything inside of reasoning the atheist's god then I found another God in religion. Which actually stopped me from being addicted to the "reasoning", self-righteousness and worshiping of myself. To me atheist is no more than a heroin addict's trip.
@wormite Haha, the "you can't define God" argument. Yes, we can define "God". If we couldn't define that word to some degree, if we couldn't outline some attributes, the word would be meaningless. There would be no reason to even attempt to communicate. "God" refers to a conscious creator of the universe. That definition (like ALL definitions) is not the beginning and end of that which it defines (as you imply). Also, you accuse atheists of having a religion as if that's a bad thing ;)
Boy: "What?!? Why call it God? It already has a label- pen."
Man: "Well, it makes me feel good."
"
My answer:
You should change the Man's answer to this: "Well, it makes me feel good, and I hope that it makes you feel good too. If it makes both of us feel good too then I will be happy because I got a friend in this world"
The boy answered:"No way, now you are telling me that we can both feel good? You are crazy! Only one of us can feel good"
You should change the boy's answer to "The best explanation for why merely changing the name of your pen to "God" makes you feel good is that you're conflating the word "God", sneaking attributes or attitudes in from other conceptions of God. Your word for anyone with brown eyes could be "pedophile", but the fact the label helps you dislike brown-eyed people isn't an argument for the name change, it's a sign the language is loaded and should be avoided for accuracy's sake."
@marsCubed "It is not God as an absent ruler, it is rather that God is the universe. Nature, everything."
Spinoza's philosophy has sometimes been called poetic atheism. You haven't made that take on Spinoza and those like him appear any less accurate or reasonable.
the answer for me is that in the after life God will judge us and everything will be redeemed
rocknrose99 9 months ago
I am one to have faith, one to believe,but I am also one to know that if I was born In India I OBVIOUSLY would not be the same religion I am today.And for that I think we can all learn something
Not only about faith but about coming together as one.We don't all have to have the same views,nor are you right or anyone else.It is clear that you,me,and everyone else could have different views based on where we grew up.Its not about who's right,its about WHATS RIGHT.And treating others well is right
danesters 1 year ago
I'm sorry, but you don't make any sense. I'm glad we live in a diverse society. I don't like nor do I respect fundamentalist individuals pushing their views on others who are content to live as they live, to question the meaning of life, and to challenge those who are sure they have the truth. I prefer to get along with people, so I will just wish you well and say goodnight. : )
ScotlandMy 1 year ago
@TheAmestris And I never said using labels was a bad thing.
TheLegendarySkeptic 1 year ago
@TheAmestris Again, most people who label the Universe 'god' don't know that we are in the Universe and the Universe is in us. The incredible vastness makes many feel insignificant, which is why people label it for emotional reasons. But you've deluded yourself into thinking that I hate people who use labels. I could care less what others label or believe.
TheLegendarySkeptic 1 year ago
@TheAmestris Labeling another person 'friend' or 'mother' is not the same thing a labeling the Universe. It wouldn't make sense to label the Universe 'father'' or 'love'. Other people try to spin this around by saying, "you don't actually need to label the women who gave birth to you 'mother' either, do you?" But these are people who completely missed the point because it's not the same thing. You don't need to label the Universe to express a connection. Cont...
TheLegendarySkeptic 1 year ago
@TheAmestris "Reality is so diverse that there will never be enough labels, not to mention the fact that labels are a part of reality, so stop complaining and start labeling."
What does any of that have to do with what I said? I don't have a problem with people labeling. But it doesn't make sense to label the Universe 'god' or 'love' when it already has a label - Universe. Slapping the Universe with another label doesn't add anything new, and people do it for emotional reasons. Cont...
TheLegendarySkeptic 1 year ago
Michael Krasny: The things children endure. It never fails to break my heart. It hurts to imagine this man as a young boy suffering this. I wish I still believed in a loving, powerful, protecting God, but I do not. I see no evidence of this in the world. In a way, it frees me up from resenting an omnipotent figure who is supposed to be there, always on the watch. All-seeing, all-knowing, yet this "entity" stands by and does not assist, come to the aid, etc.
ScotlandMy 1 year ago
@ScotlandMy LOL, it is so funny that I have heard what you just said from so many people. Seriously when will you realize that the attitude towards suffering is not representing God's character but yours. For the same suffering, some people come to realize the existence of God and found hope in suffering. The other people becomes pessimistic and starts to deny God's beauty, grace and mercy, but blames God for what happened. I have sympathy for you, if you are just making up human excuses.
wormite 1 year ago
@wormite "The other people becomes pessimistic and starts to deny God's beauty, grace and mercy, but blames God for what happened."
Perhaps people do blame God, but I've never seen it. I think you're just confused. What philosophers and theologians call "the problem of evil" is an old and well-recognized problem. It's not about blaming God; it's about recognizing that there are things in the world that one would not expect if there were an all-powerful, loving God.
AdamdeMalyns 1 year ago
I will pray for you Mr Krasny.
LeGioNoFZioN 1 year ago
To be honest, you can argue in million hours about whether God exists or who God is, what character he has. But make no mistake in estimating God as someone you would fully understand, ever, unless you think you are the creator of everything and yourself. The relationship between God and us is like Shakespeare and Hamlet, Hamlet would never be able to understand what Shakespeare is thinking, unless, of course, Shakespeare writes something about himself into the story.
wormite 1 year ago
@wormite Gods in books or gods that have attributes attributed to them by man are easilly done away with. They do not exist. The more vague god concept, the concept that is far away, blurry and ill defined is rather a stupid concept to argue about seeing as there is no evidence in any direction that we should even consider such an entity.
retepvosnul 1 year ago
@retepvosnul If you describe God as something that you can not characterize with any kind of men's thinking. Then you are saying basically we can't understand even a bit of God, that would be true if the creator of everything does not want that to happen. But your very understanding of God being not knowable is also not possible. Realize that by saying God with any human interpretation does not exist, you just attributed attributes to God by yourself, as a man. Sorry, it is not easily done with.
wormite 1 year ago
@wormite You did not fully grasp what I said. I clearly stated that any and all god concepts we know of, namely the man made variety, are most likely entirely false constructs. This is no esoteric hypothetical reasoning, it is just the fact of the matter.
Any other potential god concept you could argue for outside this group are so vague, remote, detached and unlike anything considered worth having faith in, that it simply hasn't got merit even considering them as they add nothing of substance.
retepvosnul 1 year ago
@retepvosnul LOL are you trying to say that you are claiming all the beliefs are essentially wrong as "a fact of matter"? Then let me ask you this, why would it be that you happened to be the one knowing exactly your understanding of God, either as different from all the existing understandings, or as "remote, detached, and unlike anything worth having faith in", is correct? See in the matter of God, you can not avoid making universal conclusion, and by doing so, you just had your own God.
wormite 1 year ago
@wormite Yes the Abrahamic accounts on which the 3 major religions are based, when interpreted literally and that is what they are for, are factually wrong.
I never made a claim knowing a god, I made a claim not seeing one happen.
I postulated a hypothetical god like entity, one that could, with a stretch be considered "not completely impossible" unlike biblical entities.
I think you conclusion is absurd, it is just semantics around the word "god".
retepvosnul 1 year ago
@retepvosnul I think I understand what you are saying now. You are postulating a God that is, even if it exists, has nothing to do with ME, and just let it exist in that remote, detached way. LOL I think what you mean is:"God, as long as you don't mess with me, we are fine", and you truly believe in that. Sadly my brother, that can not be true, the very fact that Abrahamic religions accounts 70% of the global population already means God is messing with you.
wormite 1 year ago
@wormite What are you lolling about ?. You seemingly haven got an iotem of what I am saying.
I mean that the Aabrahamic god does not exist. How hard is it to get though your skull that people can actually contain that notion in their head !
retepvosnul 1 year ago
@wormite And do you think that 3 radically different interpretations of the same mythology, split up in a myriad of groups with various degrees and methods of practitioning with a combined score of 70% actually believe the same thing ? It has been shown that the variety of god concept within 1 community will vary enormously. It just shows, what we know, that humans are inclined to have religious tendencies, not that any of it actually had any truth potential. That is bugger logic.
retepvosnul 1 year ago
@retepvosnul Nonetheless all these 70% are claiming there is only one God, which is still different from the atheist's understanding. And I think the believers of any of these 3 religions have no problem dealing with other beliefs, for them simply, others are wrong! It is atheist who can't deal with this, who often claims that they are all partially right, and create a God for themselves that are non-existent, or remote. And why in the world natural selection would make people monotheistic?
wormite 1 year ago
@wormite No, that's why Jerusalem is such a fun party town !
Your argumentation is bogus, these numbers mean nothing.
Selection did not make people religious and especially not monotheistic. The latter is just a random development. The tendency for religion or superstition are "mis firings" of an evolved sense of cause and effect that helps the brain make snap description based on a small amount of information.
Many good papers are available on the net for reading on the subject.
retepvosnul 1 year ago
@retepvosnul And btw, I think only atheists need a God that is vaguely or ill defined, which is their definition of God. They need this definition, to some extent, so that they can keep God away and out of the business. Depending on your own understanding to explain everything(without God ) is good, sometimes, but at other times can be very improper. All the other religions either have a book or ritual to define God in some very descriptive way, being God connected with Jesus or Muhammad.
wormite 1 year ago
@wormite Are we calling Atheism a religion again ? come on, you can do better then that. Seeing as that really isn't an argument you could just take my word for it that I really understand that there very likely is no faith and worship demanding god. Be he known by scripture or unknown on all accounts.
I have no need for such a construct in reality. They do not fit.
retepvosnul 1 year ago
@retepvosnul Well, if you don't like the word religion, which is ironically made into a bad name by atheists, and believers who disrespected other beliefs, let's call it faith. The way I see it, atheism is just another faith, which does not necessarily stop bad things to happen, as its believers hope for. (Which is the same as all the other beliefs). And some of the believers in atheism is just as disrespectful towards other religions as some of Christians, which I hate.
wormite 1 year ago
@wormite Religions have done that all by themselves, I'm afraid. Any motivation individuals have regarding religion is another matter all together. You see, atheists and agnostics are not a group as such.
Even if not believing in something impossible is "faith", at least it would not be meritless.
You assume that religion automatically deserves respect. I respect you right to believe, but I see no reason why to respect the nature/institution of that believe.
retepvosnul 1 year ago
@retepvosnul I know one thing for sure, in China, millions of people that have beliefs that claimed the existence of God are persecuted, hanged, and shot, and you think atheists and agnostics are PERFECT in this! Yes, even denying the existence is faith, unless you have concrete evidence for everyone that they can repeat your experience to produce the same result of the non-existence of it. For the matter of God, that's not true. Respect is to be earned, but don't disrespect out of bias.
wormite 1 year ago
@wormite So now not only am I a member of a group, but also a homicidal one. I think that you are behaving a bit like a feather brain on this issue. Is also does not really deal with the debate, so I'm lending towards assuming that it is no more that a retarded stab at trolling. Lets ignore this non sense and continue on topic.
Could you refrain from off topic rants and baseless accusations towards my person? It would keep the board so much cleaner.
retepvosnul 1 year ago
@retepvosnul Sorry if I gave you the impression I was in any sense attacking you personally, I was just trying to show that atheism is not better in the sense of being cruel, it is the same with all other religions, and we have a tie here. I did not mean either you as an individual would commit anything bad, or suggesting you would do something because you are an atheist, that would be so stereotyping. I have personally been atheist for 24 years too.
wormite 1 year ago
@wormite 1. You group all atheists, and secondly you tell me that WE do a great job in genocide or what not. Pull the other one if you think you can weasel yourself out of that one. It is poor but all to common debating tactic.
It was precisely that, a baseless rant directed at my person.
retepvosnul 1 year ago
@retepvosnul If you think I personally hate you therefore I would be discussing all these with you. What can I say, hopefully I am not that limited and obsessed with attacking someone. In that case it would not help you to discuss with me. I am not saying all atheists are bad people, or, all believers are good and perfect. Please understand that in every belief, people can somehow twist a good thing into cruelty. This is a "fact of matter" if u read history. No one is better in this.
wormite 1 year ago
@wormite I do archaeology, what do you think ? Don't fucking lecture me about history. You made a stupid comment, so leave it at that.
retepvosnul 1 year ago
@retepvosnul LOL it is interesting for an archaeologist to be having such an attitude. I am not trying to anger you in anyway, and I apologize if you think so. But it is the truth that we as human beings have something in us that eventually can base our cruel behaviors on all good reasons. And it is shown in history again and again. Oftentimes bad things started with a good purposes. Even for Starlin/Hitler's case.
wormite 1 year ago
@wormite You argue 2 gods in 1 argument. The god you believe in and the one that you could potentially believe in. This does not work. For some theoretical god concepts we, indeed, have no evidence against. This obviously does not mean that this automatically translates to any other god concept. The fact that we have no proof against the bunny-god of abdominal bacteria does not mean that we have non against the god of the bible. Keep your god concepts separated !
retepvosnul 1 year ago
@retepvosnul I hope I can be clearer here, but I have always been arguing about the God(s) the religions believe in, more specifically, the biblical God. And I hope you realize that by denying such a God's existence, you are creating your own understanding of this biblical God. Even if you are talking about Abrahamic religions, they are the same God from old testament. I just checked, sorry for the mistake, Abrahamic 50%, 70% is for all religions.
wormite 1 year ago
Sad! Why is it those who become academic, itellectual and from that become agnostic or atheist think that they can't be spiritual, emotional? Is it that they connect emotions with religion only. A person can feel elation at a beautiful sunrise or sunset, seing the millions of stars on an inkblot sky without attributing it to religion or deity.
humanist7117 1 year ago
@humanist7117 I can answer this one, because human weakness is to box his knowledge and make what he knows a tool, then uses this tool without feeling anything. Learning something without the happiness of enjoying the knowledge can quickly harden a person's heart. In our education system, it is the pressure and fame at stake, people already forgot the beauty and appreciation of the knowledge, just the same as a lot of religions. Real scientists are passionate about this world and very spiritual.
wormite 1 year ago
There are many man made substitutes for religion and god. They are like the sugar substitutes. Some people swear by them, but they aren't sugar.
YawnXen 1 year ago
i lost nothing when i stop believing except for the fear and guilt. science offers plenty of stuff to keep one self spiritually fulfilled, such as the large scales of time or space involved in the universe or the emergence of our sense of beauty through natural selection. if this guy does not find any of science awe inspiring he has simply no sense for the numinous
emcsqrt 1 year ago
@emcsqrt To be honest, you are definitely not someone who loves science. For someone who really enjoys physics and maths, you can only be so amazed by the beauty of the world which is definitely not created by human's effort, but by something with so much harmony. The whole science is about observing and witnessing the existing elegant laws of the world. It will be so lame to claim that because we are beautiful therefore what we found is graceful. But the rules behind are from a wonderful God.
wormite 1 year ago
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@wormite "To be honest, you [emcsqrt] are definitely not someone who loves science."
Where in the world is this claim coming from?
"It will be so lame to claim that because we are beautiful therefore what we found is graceful."
It's a good thing, then, that nobody is doing that.
AdamdeMalyns 1 year ago
@wormite - Who named you "anointed" to set everyone straight on this board?
You keep responding to individuals telling them where they are in error in their lives/outlook. Your comments don't provide any real wisdom. You can' t explain anything, really.
ScotlandMy 1 year ago
@ScotlandMy It is sad that you would think that way, all I am trying is to use my own experience to show that atheism has its holes and traps, and in a lot of cases bigger than other beliefs, it is just not as good as you imagine. I said so because I came from an atheist country. I do not wish to change anyone, but I do want to warn against the wrong doings and the horrible results. If I did something good to cause blaming on myself, I'll live with it. As long as it is beneficial to you.
wormite 1 year ago
Agnostics are closet atheists. They only hold that view, I suspect, in order to appease the religious. By nullifying the argument about god's existence, and therefore the legitimacy of religion they actually undermine the true debate - the delusion, divisiveness, and downright stupidity it demands and the complete lack of evidence for any deity whatsoever.
dubaipete 1 year ago
@dubaipete
Any chance you will humble yourself enough to admit you don't understand everything, agnosticism obviously being one. Rhetorical.
1HumanKind 1 year ago
@dubaipete Try living in China, Russia, Cuba, and North Korea, which are called the enemies by your new liberals. There we are all atheists, and see what happens to your view of the righteousness of atheists. Believing in God or not, in this world, has absolutely nothing to do with your possible cruel attitudes towards others. I have seen atheists do the most horrible thing to people, and because they believe if they can get by in this life, they get by forever, they are more cruel.
wormite 1 year ago
Now that Fora charges for viewing just about everything, I'm going to unsubscribe. This is ridiculous.
The world is thinking? Family Guy is free over on Hulu.
KRA3030 1 year ago
god is your subcoscious. you [and it] are part of the universal mind. you need believe nothing to have faith. just listen to your inner voice and you will know religion
superfuzz 1 year ago
How moving!!!! I think that many of us have found a bit a sadness with the knowledge that we have found (or lost). It is a maturation that I hope that mankind can experience. We might miss religion, but should let it go. We must; our existence depends on it.
billyprogym 1 year ago 2
What a wuss. He is still afraid to call his teacher a thug. If the events he describes occurred today, the 'teacher' would be in jail.
Sweden banned all forms of child corporeal punishment in the early 1960s. That generation is now the least religious on earth. Proof that religion is and always has been a lame excuse for adults to beat up children. Never mind god, what kind of adult thinks it's alright to beat children?
geezzerboy 1 year ago
@geezzerboy I grew up in an atheist family, and we looked down upon the people who are religious, and we beat our child. I remember that I see parents who are absolutely atheist going to school, telling the teacher :" Please beat my child as much as you want to so they can learn, we will thank you for that". Do not tell me being religious or not has something to do with beating the child, actually only in certain cultures you start to see this phenomenon calling beating children abuse.
wormite 1 year ago
@wormite - That's insane.
ScotlandMy 1 year ago
@ScotlandMy Why is it insane? I have asked my German, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Polish, French friends, they all say in their culture you will see the child's ass getting whooped. In Chinese culture it is even said, if they child is not properly educated with physical method, it is the father's fault. Only in US culture have I ever seen something called child abuse ... All the other cultures are either neglecting it, or advocating it. I don't even know which is better now, beat them or not.
wormite 1 year ago
C.S. Lewis to this day, has encouragement for you, Mr. Krasny. While I understand your views intellectually, I don't swallow them as hook line and sinker. Neither should your hope.
DontEncourageHim 1 year ago
Am I the only one really off put by someone saying mentioning the Founding Fathers makes them feel "like Glen Beck"? Come on, people, I'm not a fan of Mr.Beck and I think noting the Founders were deists does not make you some kind of Beck fan.
GOPsithlord 1 year ago
I lost my faith for the reason most people do - LOGIC!
Mitsuraga 1 year ago
@Mitsuraga I gained my faith for the reason most people do - LOGIC!
wormite 1 year ago
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@wormite Faith, by definition, is belief without evidence, or with evidence to the contrary, in which case the act of observation is rejected, so that belief can be preserved.
That must be one strange breed of logic, for it to prove one thing in one place and its negation in another, while in its global distribution strictly adheres to borders of states and ethnic groups.
You likely gained your faith for the reason most people do - upbringing || credulity
Lihinel 1 year ago
@wormite
Faith in what? An irrational concept conceived before mankind got over his fear of death? Come now; what logic can be found in believing something without valid cause?
Mitsuraga 1 year ago
@Mitsuraga LOL, Calling faith irrational, tbh, I have been there too. I was a firm atheist and then agnostic person for 26 years before I finally realized that there is no way to justify your own rationality as reflecting either truth or beneficial to anyone. So tell me, if you are just rational for the purpose of rationality, what is your difference with the people who are believing just for the sake of belief? Aren't your own rationality just another religion you created for yourself?
wormite 1 year ago
@wormite
I'd reply, if your argument made any sense. And anyway, you're clearly here to troll away at everyone with enough sense to not believe anything for which there is no proof, so say whatever you want about Jesus' award-winning smile and how it's so much neater than being rational. I'm done here.
Mitsuraga 1 year ago
I envy religious joy no more than I envy a heroin addict's trip.
We have a tendency to unfairly deprecate reality. Yes, it sucks sometimes. But for most of us in the Western world, it's usually pretty damn decent. To flee then to comforting religious delusions is to be totally unappreciative of the good that we already have.
LeLimeLine 1 year ago
@LeLimeLine If you are truly appreciative of what you have, you wouldn't have a single problem of the religious people at all. They are part of what you called "reality".
wormite 1 year ago
@wormite And religious people, like most everything else in reality, are great for the most part. Like I said, reality has some problems, but it is decent for most of us Westerners. And identifying a fault in religious people that can have dangerous consequences is not an equivalent dissatisfaction to that which motivates the religious to latch onto the monumental delusion of perpetual paternal monitoring by a deity. I would say I am more content with reality than most religious.
LeLimeLine 1 year ago
@wormite Thats what the mayan priest told his prisoner before he continued his ritual to rip out his still beating heart with an obsidian blade so the sun could continue to shine tommorrow.
Lihinel 1 year ago
Sad story but he didn't really add anything to the subject.
diomedes39 1 year ago
@diomedes39 Should watch the full speech, It is incredibly interesting.
MilitantPeaceist 1 year ago
@MilitantPeaceist I guess it could be, but when he suggested that most people lose faith for emotional reasons I lost interest. Is the whole thing like that?
diomedes39 1 year ago
@diomedes39 Well it is actually the truth, don't forget the majority of people are religious .. only some atheists are born, so to speak, most come to atheism from religion & often it is a turning point that does it.
The whole speech makes you think, it doesn't give you answers. It's not the holy grail ;)
MilitantPeaceist 1 year ago
@MilitantPeaceist Every single non-believer left the faith due to logical reasons and agree that emotional reasons aren't very good reasons at all when it comes to this.
diomedes39 1 year ago
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@diomedes39
Then why do so many react to religious people like the roles are reversed & see evil religious people?
"Every single non-believer left the faith due to logical reasons and agree that emotional reasons aren't very good reasons at all when it comes to this." - sorry, don't buy it at all. Have you asked all those people yourself?
MilitantPeaceist 1 year ago
@MilitantPeaceist I mistyped, I apologize. What I meant to say was that all the ones that I met did it for logical reasons.
diomedes39 1 year ago
@diomedes39 No probs - I apologise also for being grumpy 8( Someones god got my periods reversed 8p
MilitantPeaceist 1 year ago
@diomedes39 no, that's not true. There are several bad atheists out there who are atheists purely for illogical reasons. Example: hells angels who commit crimes and justify violent risky lifestyles because there is no god, there is no sin, etc. People do not just leave religion because of logical reasons. I did, but not all people do. You did, probably too. But not all people. There are plenty of idiot atheists out there
SeeProfileForDetails 1 year ago
@SeeProfileForDetails I mistyped, I apologize. What I meant to say was that all the ones that I met did it for logical reasons.
diomedes39 1 year ago
i now, this is a comming out, but i belive he is bagging for exorcissem
wdh1550 1 year ago
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krstcmjns 1 year ago
People just dont understand true religion. It is not about dogma. They dont know what faith is. Faith is not "believe in the impossible". The man Jesus never created a religion. He was killed by religious people. When humans understand this fact and just love each other as he said we will have a real revolution in this world. The people are blind and follow the false teachers. Jesus told only to follow the truth and nothing more. Wake up.
atessmann 1 year ago
he had to read nietzsche and darwin, socrates and russell. very sophisticated! i didn't need to read any of those to come to the realization that the little man in the sky doesn't exist! it happened around the same time i started to question the existence of santa, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy!
58robbo 1 year ago
Theodicy - a branch of theology (phylosophy), trying to find excuses for god, allowing, or even causing, bad things to happen to people, even believers; and coming up with unbelievably contrived, twisted reasoning...
The founding fathers were on the right way, shedding certain beliefs in god, they couldn't shed him entirely, because of years of conditioning - there must be 'something', 'somebody' who has started it all. Well, now we know better.
dewinthemorning 1 year ago
If God is infinite, then is not something else & God.
Religion alone sets out to divide the indivisible God concept into magical warring beings.
'worthy' & 'unworthy' are a supreme arrogance.
Religion is lifting a part above everything else, onto a throne to sit beside. begging God to be different, crying to God because it is not good enough in some way.
Religion defines itself as sin in it's own terms. God in a stick for authority.
Lost sheep in a superstitious landscape to be left behind them.
marsCubed 1 year ago
We atheists have thousands of reasons to feel this "spiritual" joy.
There is the wonder of nature, the awesome view of the universe delivered to us by science, true love with a life partner, parental love, friendship, achievement...
We don't need faith to have these things. Why does this guy envy anything? He need not. It is his for the taking.
freesk8 1 year ago 7
I'll tell you why there's no god. Because there's injustice.
etniko 1 year ago
Losing faith is like losing your virginity......you think about it, you wonder what it'll be like, will it be as good as they say etc....and then when it happens, you wonder why you waited so long.
HisTruthbeUNKOWN 1 year ago
Who would envy that? I dont understand this impulse.
Saktoth 1 year ago
God,what a sick teacher.I went to a Catholic school staffed only by nuns,and they never did anything like that to us.Why do people like that enter into fields in which they will have any interaction with kids?My heart goes out to the speaker.
elzakrasz 1 year ago 3
@elzakrasz Yes, I was lucky too..
"School corporal punishment" in wikipedia is a good article. The trend seems to be it is being outlawed by more and more countries...Britain in the late 80's. But the schools themselves are a punishment to the mind, body and emotions!
The US, where states started outlawing school torture early, (NJ in the 1860's) still hasn't finished the job, with many states still practicing it.
givebirthathome 1 year ago
That's why I hate religion and I see it STEALING love and Goodness as properties of their gods. They stole the sense of community, the sense of getting together for the community, and ALL those things and poisoned it with their dogmas, and NOW, every time someone wants to get along and do good stuff, is ALWAYS related to religion.
I hope that, in the future, it could be seen as it really is: JUST DOGMAS. Love and Goodness are present in each one of us, and MUST be cultivated with KNOWLEDGE.
TemporalOnline 1 year ago 40
@TemporalOnline love goodness & truth is replaced by hate fear & a bunch of lies
nayanmalig 1 year ago
@TemporalOnline Right on. The word is alienation.
The theists alienate the good, the love, the justice, the wonder that is in each of us, and project it on to some alien, imaginary other.
They attempt to alienate the best in us.
They do this to break our will, to make us weak, to make us dependent.
They alienate us from the best within us in order to control us.
Glad you've seen it too.
freesk8 1 year ago 3
@TemporalOnline I sympathize with what you're trying to get at, but I think that you miss the point. People use symbols and narratives as a kind of shorthand to mediate the common bonds that tie community together. Occasionally faults in narratives get in the way of the bonds they represent, but more often, real conflicts are represented through those narratives. While dogma is arbitrary, so too are words, gestures, art, and all other forms of expression.
hasatum 1 year ago
@TemporalOnline Yes you are right that LOVE and goodness are in everyone of us, but I wonder how far you would go about doing things to show them before you stop at the threshold of being selfishness. We all have limitations buddy, and people have different ways to push that limit.Try your best to understand others' ways instead of condemning them.
wormite 1 year ago
@TemporalOnline What you say is very deep and philosophical. I agree with it.
tempemonkey2323 1 year ago
@TemporalOnline Well said.
dubaipete 1 year ago
He "processed it somehow". Tell us how.
stephenetienne 1 year ago
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TemporalOnline 1 year ago
That's pretty pathetic.
Phelan666 1 year ago
To understand enlightenment deism one should read Spinoza, particularly the first half of The Ethics.
It is not God as an absent ruler, it is rather that God is the universe.
Nature, everything.
Consider if the universe was a lego brick in a lego representation of Pi.
Questions of infinity out-scope themselves and are not trivial.
Faced with the seemingly infinite vastness of space and time, Pride pisses on what it cannot comprehend, proclaiming the fault is in the very properties required.
marsCubed 1 year ago
@marsCubed If god is the Universe, then why label it 'god'? Makes no sense. It already has a label - Universe or Nature. Slapping another label (a label - god - that means different things to different people) just clutters everything. Labeling something god doesn't prove a thing, nor does it explain.
Man: "Hey, my pen is God."
Boy: "What?!? Why call it God? It already has a label- pen."
Man: "Well, it makes me feel good."
TheLegendarySkeptic 1 year ago 29
@TheLegendarySkeptic "If god is the Universe, then why label it 'god'?"
The concept of an infinite states, infinite time.. did not come from religion etc. it came from the naturalists, ppl like Parmenides of ancient Greece.
It's the realm of mathematics & multiverses, least action as supreme elegance.
Religion persecuted such ideas as atheist for millennia & hijacked with twisted theology, as it attempts to do today with ID.
Sets of sets is more like geometry.. no big ape on a cloud necessary.
marsCubed 1 year ago
@TheLegendarySkeptic Why indeed! To identify the universe as God is to credit it as a thing worthy of reverence, awe, love, etc. It is not too different from calling a particular person a friend; to do so is not making a claim that that person is different from the one referred to by their given name; it merely recognizes a relationship to that person. All gods have names and are identified with different phenomenon. MarsCubed identifies his with the universe at large. No problem.
hasatum 1 year ago
@hasatum I think you're missing the point. People can label the Universe all they want, but it doesn't change the fact that it's still The Universe. It's already labeled. You can label the Universe "friend," "god," "allah," or "pickachu" - none of those labels add anything new other than making people feel good. The Universe is grand and magnificent, but the incredible vastness makes a lot people feel insignificant. Sadly, this is why people create labels.
TheLegendarySkeptic 1 year ago
@TheLegendarySkeptic When I call you a "friend" it makes a great difference. It may describe no new feature of you per se, but then that's not the point. Rather, it's meant to represent my relationship with you to myself and others. Calling the universe by what largely amounts to a term of endearment is not an attempt to avert feelings of inadequacy if the term is describing sincere expression of a felt connection with the universe. Fair enough?
hasatum 1 year ago 2
@hasatum You wouldn't label the Universe ' friend, ' would you? Sure, you can if you want, but it wouldn't make sense. So it's not the same thing as calling another person 'friend'. You don't need to label the Universe to express a felt connection. People who label the Universe (god, allah, love, spiritual, etc.) don't realize that we are in the Universe - and the Universe is in us. I don't have a problem with people slapping labels on things to make them feel good, though.
TheLegendarySkeptic 1 year ago
@TheLegendarySkeptic Why wouldn't someone call the universe their friend? It provides for us. As for applying labels to express connection, you don't actually need to label the woman who gave birth to you "mother" either, do you? Do we apply that label simply to "feel good"? A proper pantheist is very aware of their place as a part of the universe. That's why I mentioned expressing a connection.
hasatum 1 year ago
@TheLegendarySkeptic because it helps pave the way for christians to become atheists without it being such an abrupt loss for them. Like how Einstein was a pantheists at some times.
SeeProfileForDetails 1 year ago
@TheLegendarySkeptic People just don't want to have to admit "God" doesn't exist, so they therefore pretend that the word "God" can mean anything as a means of avoiding the admission. "God" is not the universe. "God" is not love. We have a word for the universe, it's universe. We have a word for love, it's love. "God" is a hypothetical conscious entity that supposedly designed and created the universe. That's what the word means. If you stoop to denying this, you've SEVERELY lost the argument.
LeLimeLine 1 year ago
@LeLimeLine It's funny that atheists think we can always fully comprehend or define the creator of the world just as being the creator of the world. It's as if Hamlet is saying:"I fully understand what you are thinking, Shakespeare". I call everything inside of reasoning the atheist's god then I found another God in religion. Which actually stopped me from being addicted to the "reasoning", self-righteousness and worshiping of myself. To me atheist is no more than a heroin addict's trip.
wormite 1 year ago
@wormite Haha, the "you can't define God" argument. Yes, we can define "God". If we couldn't define that word to some degree, if we couldn't outline some attributes, the word would be meaningless. There would be no reason to even attempt to communicate. "God" refers to a conscious creator of the universe. That definition (like ALL definitions) is not the beginning and end of that which it defines (as you imply). Also, you accuse atheists of having a religion as if that's a bad thing ;)
LeLimeLine 1 year ago
@TheLegendarySkeptic
"
Man: "Hey, my pen is God."
Boy: "What?!? Why call it God? It already has a label- pen."
Man: "Well, it makes me feel good."
"
My answer:
You should change the Man's answer to this: "Well, it makes me feel good, and I hope that it makes you feel good too. If it makes both of us feel good too then I will be happy because I got a friend in this world"
The boy answered:"No way, now you are telling me that we can both feel good? You are crazy! Only one of us can feel good"
wormite 1 year ago
@wormite
You should change the boy's answer to "The best explanation for why merely changing the name of your pen to "God" makes you feel good is that you're conflating the word "God", sneaking attributes or attitudes in from other conceptions of God. Your word for anyone with brown eyes could be "pedophile", but the fact the label helps you dislike brown-eyed people isn't an argument for the name change, it's a sign the language is loaded and should be avoided for accuracy's sake."
AtSwimTwoBricks 1 year ago
@marsCubed "It is not God as an absent ruler, it is rather that God is the universe. Nature, everything."
Spinoza's philosophy has sometimes been called poetic atheism. You haven't made that take on Spinoza and those like him appear any less accurate or reasonable.
justicecallicles 1 year ago