"There is more evidence of credibility of the bible than any history.Therefore, to throw out the bible is to throw out any profane history of the world." - Sir Isaac Newton
Kelly - you should really check your scholarly consensus on the existence of Jesus Christ. Most disagree with you. In fact in Richard Dawkins God Delusion book he only referenced one scholar to show the non existence of Christ. And he was a German professor. He didn't even interview specialists in the field of history, archaeology or theology. Se Dr Gary Habermas' work also on this and other Christ gods in history.
Jesus / Yeshua is mentioned numerous times in Jewish manuscripts (Talmud), but there are also numerous historical documents of Jesus by non believers. If you want to reject Him as Messiah I can understand but to dismiss Him historically is preposterous.
so ray's basic argument is that the bible is true by default and anything in it should be believed without recourse to any other inquiry? what a ridiculous thing to say. there is not a shred of evidence that the bible is accurate about jesus and who he was or what he did. to say otherwise is to be a credulous fool. extraordinary claims require extaordinary evidence. why would i believe such claims just because some book says it happened?
So this woman says there is no proof that Jesus even existed? So the Apostles were willing to die horrible deaths for a myth? I don't think so. The five hundred or so witness who saw HIm after his resurrection were all mass hallucinating? I don't think so! There were several others that confirmed the historicity of Jesus besides only Josephus. It is sad when people hate the Savior so much, they are willing to blasphemy God & His Son Just like the pharisees did.
@mRUSSIA firstly, the reference to josephus is considered by historians to be a forgery which was added by someone else much later. please enlighten me as to who these several others that referenced jesus are? not a single person at the time jesus was supposedly preaching and doing miracles ever seems to have thought it worthy of mention. any mention of him at all came decades after his death. i find that highly suspicious. give me one person who mentions him at the time he supposedly lived.
@lordscully Pliny Governor of Bithynia, the Roman historian Tacitur, Suetonius a Roman writer all testify to the historicity of Jesus Christ. Also even though some claim that the writings of Josephus concerning Christ were a forgery, "the passage stands in all standard texts and can be defended." Jackson. Also these people that claim Jesus didn't exist weren't there. The apostles were. Also do you really think someone would be willing to die for a mythical character?
@mRUSSIA There have been quite a few cults who committed mass suicide or died fighting for their leaders. Fanaticism does not prove the truth of what they believed.
The mind will argue intelligently as best as it is equipped to, on any subject, but will limit the discussions based on the structure of belief or knowledge that it has made for itself which is solely dependent on its own limitations.
The question isn't so much about a 'Jesus' existing - but that he was some mortal aspect of a supposed God...that is why I'll never believe in that. If I found absolute evidence that a man called Jesus existed and was good to people (don't mention miracles please) then crucified by the Romans ...it would make no difference to my belief in the sciences over religion.
She brought out the bomb...Jesus never existed. Ray on the ropes. Josephus never mentioned Jesus. That one quote supposedly from Josephus was proven fraudulent.
@bryanttillman In his Annals, written around 116 AD, Roman historian and senator Tacitus refers to Christ's crucifixion by Pontius Pilate and mentions the fact that Christians lived in Rome. Historians consider this to be a reliable history. There are others. It's an historical fact that Nero persecuted Christians. Of whom were these Christians disciples if not Jesus? Plus, whether you believe them are not, there are eyewitness accounts which mockers deny.
@chesster423 If one accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior -- and does their best to live a holy and righteous life (because that's what Jesus is) -- then all the sins become washed away and one has eternal paradise with God(!!!) ... to look forward to when their spirit leaves this world.
Jesus, who was a carpenter in this world, also says that He builds each person a mansion that is theirs to keep. (One can't begin to imagine how plush and beautiful those mansions must be!!!)
@chesster423 You're being a brick. You seem to think everything about Biblical truth is either or. But things are such that deep and meaningful discussions can be derived ... .
@chesster423 In my view the Christian Bible is VERY significant. As Socrates said long ago, truth is like a barn door; one can't help but hit some of it while at the same time one can't hit all of it. But does that mean that the Bible is totally true? I'm not sure due to a great deal coming down to whether or not the individual reflecting on it feels it's true for him or her.
I know I've had things that I thought were BS about it come back years later to show me that I was wrong in my assesment
@supbiznatches well if you are supposed to be a self respecting athiest like these people thinking in such a way where you have to use vulgar language to prove a point when you could simply show if you actually know if what you believe to be true yet you cannot present any information to me or the other people yet you just persecute and ridicule people of this belief without knowing whether what you are saying is true or not
u know what i would actually believe kirk and ray only because of how mature they are being throughout the entire debate. they had every opportunity to flip out just like these atheists are. i can't believe how immature those two were just by looking away from ray and how horrible they are acting. kirk and ray have been calm, reasonable, and patient the entire time.
@DaBluedude100 "The truth lies in science, logic, and philosophy." The Holy Bible contains all these. The Book of Proverbs would be a great example for logic and philosophy. Did you know that in the Bible it mentions that the Universe is expanding? Or that the Earth is a sphere instead of flat ground? Read the Bible more please.
I understand how religion can easily make profit out of people. We see how scientology can manipulate people's emotions which isn't right. But is the point of insulting religion to make them sound stupid, or to make them understand the importance of science and logic? My main mission is to make religious people allow kids to learn true science and evolution.
@David325ful The bible is a collection of bs written by men. It holds no truth, it provides very little moral guidance, and it provides justification for everything when put in different lights. Its stupid, holds nothing of value other than the heat that can be released from the pages upon combustion. If you are shaped by it then you are miss-shapen and twisted. The truth lies in science, logic, and philosophy. Religion is holding mankind back. Wake the fuck up!
I skipped around these videos, but I assume the lady and the big guy are anti religion?
Perhaps if those two spoke in a manner that was more polite like Kirk and his dude, perhaps other religious viewers wouldn't feel like they were being attacked and criticized.
The lady and guy's rhetoric and mannerisms was disrespectful.
I would give those two a plus because they are for logical thinking and a plus for the pro religion because they were speaking politely. Both sides need to reconsider.
@jedidavisWAMPA maybe because atheists have had the short stick and are still being bullied and discriminated in a lot of countries that they are fed up with it
@toverkleet 1st: may be so. however, when one representative acts in a way that is hostile towards the other, the rest of the group will remember the bad things the most and assume every single atheist are trying to attack them; the one rotten apple in the barrel. perhaps if atheists with outspoken ideas did not speak vehemently, perhaps there could be a better understand towards evolutionary theory or science or example.
@toverkleet 2: BUT, i do feel your part of the stick because it's so hard to get through their thick skulls. i mean their rebuttals don't even get to the point, but lingers to tangents. even the audience get ticked off lol.
@jedidavisWAMPA and their responses are incredibly stupid. The bible is a book right why does it holdd more value then the history books? History books at least have been researched. The bible is just taken blindly, by these types of 'christians'(cause I dont know which way they swing, mormon, catholic protestant). Its the pinacle of ignorance and in a way, hypocritical to call atheists out on history books bdlievin in them and at the same time hold no question against their own book.
@jedidavisWAMPA I think you miss the point. The point is not to be polite, the point is to insult and jeer Religion out of mainstream society. It should be poked and prodded out of existence in the most direct, peaceful ways possible. I have had enough of religious nuts coming to my door or littering me with pamphlets about how their god is going to save me for just 3 easy payments of 69.95 and a lifetime of mind enslavement. I think religion should be exposed for fraud and driven from society.
@DaBluedude100 2nd reply: It's unfortunate that we learn early proponents of anti-Christianity and science were too outspoken that their ego has made science seem so suspicious because people think science is trying to get rid of religion. Even current atheists or anti-Christians still act the same way, speaking vehemently towards them. A true scientist shows humility and constructive criticism, and science never was meant to replace religion, only to see a new way of understanding life.
@jedidavisWAMPA I must disagree with you. Science seeks truth through theory, repeatable, testable, and logical testing. The pursuit for actual knowledge is science. Sure there are ego driven scientists but they are not lying about their true results. No one would claim they could prove something only to have it dis-proven immediately. Sure science has never sought to replace religion but it now explains much of what religion laid claim to. Religion now seeks a dangerous anti science view.
@DaBluedude100 Yes, the part about repeatable, testable parts, I agree with you. I guess what I'm trying to say is some egotistical atheists may act pretentious, similar to a religious studies person. But what i would like is to have religious people to not interfere with scientific teachings. You dont like them knocking on your door, I don't like how people send their kids to private schools teaching about creationism, rather evolution.
I can't believe thewayofthemaster uploaded this clip as though it supported their case. "ALL RECORDED HISTORY IS A LIE!". Yea, great arguement fucking morons.
I would recommend several of Bart Ehrman's books such as "Jesus Interrupted" and "Jesus Misquoted". If you would like to see a basic overview of Ehrman's position on the historical Jesus you can also find a youtube video called "Did Jesus Exist - Bart Ehrman vs. Reginald Finley".
According to renowned best selling author and New Testament scholar, Dr. Bart Ehrman (agnostic btw), there is not one serious historian who disputes the existence of Jesus in 1st century Palestine. In fact, there is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than any other figure in antiquity. For Kelly to assert that Jesus never existed only shows her massive ignorance on the topic. Historians do dispute the veracity of his sayings and the events of his life but certainly not his existence.
@wlemusic Can you send me a personal message with those sources? I'm an atheist and all I could search for historical evidence of jesus was the new testament (that was written after the death of jesus) and some authors that lived AFTER the supposed death of jesus.
I want to contrast that with your sources so I can challenge my views.
@lautaa33 Jesus was a real person and if you would like to know a saints opinion of Jesus then read about Paramahansa Yogananda who had visions of Jesus...notovitch wrote a book in late 1800s about Jesus going to india, nepal and tibet during the 18 years that the bible doesnt say much about him..it is well known in India that JC traveled there
@leonetski When it comes to wether jesuschris existed or not, you can't rely on accounts. We have accounts of people with aliens. Do you believe in aliens because of that? Historians search other things to prove the existance of something.
@lautaa33 Dr ehrman basically laughs at people who say Jesus did not exist and he is a historian...i believe aliens visited this earth too and so does apollo astronaut dr edgar mitchell who grew up in roswell and personally knew many of the people who saw the aliens and spacecraft...i live near the famous betty and barney hill abduction scene and that is a legiititmate case and i have also known credible people who have seen UFOs the size of a aircraft carrier
O that cunning plan of the evil one ! O the vainness and the frailties , and the foolishness of men ! When they are learned they think they are wise , and they hearken not unto the counsel of God , for they set it aside , supposing they know of themselves, wherefore their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not . And they shall perish .
And whoso knocketh ,to him will he open ;and the wise and the learned ,and they that are rich ,who are puffed up because of their learning ,he despiseth
brian as well. dont get so defensive. atheism takes belief as well. if you believe there is no God. then you are putting your FAITH in it and backing it up. athism contridicts it self. the atheist side is a turn off anyway becasue of the anger they hold when they speak. i'll follow the christians because of their character. there must be a Jesus son of God.
on kelly's part....she shouldnt be so attitudy when kirk and ray are being so nice with soft answers. A gift from God is peace. thats what kirk and ray have. kelly is being attitudy and looking for claps and responses from the audiences, kirk and ray are not. read Proverbs 15:1. this is a good example of not being ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Every knee will bow and tongue confess romans 14:11
@BFFFL16 Atheism isn't a belief, it's a lack thereof. I don't believe in your god for the same reason i don't believe in any other god, because there is no testable, repeatable, proven evidence. The burden of proof lies on why you believe in your god and not all the other thousands of religions, including the ones that historically/anthropologically predated your religion.
@8bitasplode atheist ask alot of "why" questions when everything does not need and answer. to many whys will confuse u and cause u not to believe, digging a hole deeper than u wanna go, just to be honest. its way more energy to try to deny God than just to believe. no rock can tell me that he lived and no rock can tell me that he created it or not. i feel it in my HEART. the word of God Stands on its own so i dont need to defend it. Read it for yourself. its no harm done, alot a good for YOU:)
Regardless of who's right, the Atheist party comes across as proud while the Christian party comes across as ignorant. Neither party are good debating material.
" THIS IS THE "SWINE" THE BIBLE SPEAKS ABOUT , DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME TALKING TO THIS "WOMAN" ABOUT "GOD" BECAUSE AS THE "BIBLE PUTS IT DON'T CAST YOUR PEARLS BEFORE "SWINE"...!
You can condemn that we have faith in dozens of consistent history books, while you have faith in a book full of self-inconsistencies. What's that guys? Double standard!
I just want to laugh at that guy who says: you have faith in history books, I have faith in the words (or just a book?) of the living God. <-------Time to forget about the biological definition of "living"
@pyrobryan The bible is the word of God, the bible says its the word of God and the bible prophecies also prove its the word of God. When you move from intellect into experience through having a personally relationship with God himself you will know it's the word of God also. Untill then, you can argue as much as you like but it doesn't change the facts.
@devonbiker Priceless! Your response to the circular logic that the bible is the word of god because it says so is that that the bible is the word of god because it says so.
Circular logic within circular logic. We must go deeper. BWOOOOOONNNNGGGGG!
This comment is also the word of god. (It says it is so it must be, right?)
@pyrobryan Wrong, you obviously have never read AND understood it. There's no other book like it. Just cause the book itself says it is the word of God is only part of it. The fact that it is, is because of how reliable it is, how truthful it is, how accurate it is. Sixty six books, written by 40 people, different walks of like shepherds to kings, written over 1500 years, written in 3 different languages, is it remarkably coherent. Every bible prophecy about Jesus 1st coming was fulfilled 100%.
Rays Response was spot on when he replied to Kelly..... "you have got so much faith in history books, you quote history books like their gospel but you ignore the gospel records. Whenever you quote history books it shows you've got blind faith in the words of man - we have the words of the living God in the bible" says it all. Kelly was quoting from history books to suit her viewpoint but ignored the bible which has loads more weighty evidence in its' favor.
@MrNicMachiavelli You need to check your facts, the historical evidence for the bible (new testiment in particular) embarrasses other secular historical figures of the time. So it's not magic and we don't follow Jesus on blind faith either. have you researched the evidence yourself?
@pyrobryan The word of god, maybe you should look at historical evidence proclaiming jesus' existence after 2-years after his death speaking of his divinity and his existence
@kingseho I think you are lying. who mentions jesus and his miracles 2 years after his death? I'll be happy to concede if it checks out. i have read up on the historicity of jesus and historian's seem to be unaware of this author. please do share this important information with the rest of us. until you can do so i'll consider you to be full of shit.
Poor Kelly thinks she knows a lot more and even better she thinks she is correct. Thing is she knows nothing of what she speaks of. Ignorance is the only thing i see and hear when i look at her and the other man.
*Comment on my statement if you simply cannot help yourselves youtubers but you will all come to find out later.
2) I'm sure it's a Freudian slip on his part, but Comfort equates his gospel with history books, which he calls also calls "gospel". I've found this to happen a lot, by calling atheism a "religion just like other religions". This is a fundamental (pardon the pun) misunderstanding about atheism; Atheism is a lack of belief in the supernatural. We are waiting for extraordinary evidence to prove this extraordinary claim, regardless of the faith involved. The onus is not on us.
first off the pharisee wanted to silence Jesus and they said look how the world goes after Him, so no they wouldn't keep records of His excistance, second I find it amazing if Jesus was not that well known I find it amazing He is a household name today, and don't give me the Catholics made it up because they contradict the very bible they helped preserve which to me is more evendence God preserves His word
My issue with this is the complete "disrespect" that was showed when the Christians were speaking. I will NEVER listen to someone who when being shown politeness while they spoke returned a "sigh", "rolling of the eyes", and yes.. I wanted to slap that wink right off her face when she spoke so rudely to the other people. Whatever FAITH they have... I don't want it.
They christian guy with the moustache has an interesting blind spot. His tries to refute the idea that the conclusions to be drawn from the pagan written historical record aren't valid because it is just a book. He then goes on to argue that the information in the bible, a book, is valid.
For this to work, he has to have it both ways by saying, "evidence derived from scholarship is only valid when it is the scholarship that *I* accept as valid."
She starts off talking about first century and then she says that Josephus isn't contemporaneous. The thing is, these people thing that the extant records of history from that period are exhaustive. They are not. But the New Testament was written closer to that period than what these people can come up with, and they choose to discount it.
Well according to Kelly several roman historians of the era where all liars then. Go look up the records of Mara Bar Serapio. Or is that Syrian historical records don't count in Kelly's mind? Kelly ignores evidence that disagrees with her position and then she makes sweeping generalizations that are wrong
Yes Ray we all read the bible so we know it is crap. Stop pretending we don't know.
The world sitting on turtles backs was never a scientific belief is was religion and folklaw that claimed this, was it a deliberate lie or ignorance Ray.
These two don't care about reality or facts just promoting thier position and boost sales of the DVD's. He has a quick mouth but no substance, I note many staments are strait from the sales training to trap the other with deciet.
Brian and Kelly look like they were just forced to take castor oil. What a shame Kirk and Ray didn't bring up the archaeological finds of; Noah's ark, the scorched black mountain top where Moses received the Ten Commandments, parts from chariots and skeletal remains in the Red Sea, Ninevah (which scholars say never existed). Additionally, the Jews didn't want any knowledge or gospel of Jesus Christ spread.They rejected him as Messiah. So logically they wouldn't have recorded any information pe
The Gospels prove what the Gospels say? That's like saying the story of Paul Bunyan must be true, because he is mentioned in the Story of Paul Bunyan.
It's only a "best seller" because it tells the desperate/downtrodden what they want to hear and conjures up unfalsifiable answers to unknowable questions. It is popular because it is an opiate.
Even IF the Gospels were written around the time of Jesus' life (and there is no evidence at all to support this contention, only wishful thinking) why is it no other historian of the day remarked upon any of Jesus' exploits between the ages of twelve and thirty?
@pynic29 the New testament had many eye witness, See ACTs of the Apostles and read it. It tell the story right after Jesus died and tell of the jewish history of what the leadership of the Jews understood and tells of the witnesses of Jesus life, death and resurrection. Even the leaders of the Jews knew what had happened and tried to cover it up lest they loose money from temple income. Read it and see what you think. Is it real? Does it sound fake? Give it a try. you might learn something
@vipersdragband How so, like it is staged. Why would some one fake thier time in Jail or stoning or how about getting run through with a sword? CS Lewis said he when something was real or not real and He came to the conclusion that is was an eye witness account.
@MRGV7373 Why would you need to assume that anything you listed was faked? It was not the "actors" in the story who potentially faked the events, but the author who wrote about them. And CS Lewis is no more an authority on what is an eyewitness account than you or I am...
@vipersdragband So why would the author write down something that was not real and spend all the time writing Luke and Acts? Other real witness would know that the materials were "fake" and discard the writing as nonhistorical which no one ever did. Luke was a doctor and considered quite briliant and sincere. Why would Luke go to such ends if he is writng this as an eye witness of Paul's journeys?
@MRGV7373 For conversion purposes obviously :-) Why do you assume that Israel 2000 years ago had the capability of mass printing and communication whereby the "witnesses" would know what Luke wrote? All of the "writings" in the bible were decided upon hundreds of years after being written far past when all witnesses ceased to exist. Ask yourself why the 4 main gospel writers don't agree on WHO came to see Jesus' empty tomb, or who was waiting there when they did....
@vipersdragband The writing that got into the New Testament where widely circulated before the bible was put together in 325 AD. Lukes writing are much referenced by 150ad and later. So their were read by many churches across the Roman Empire. Other witnesses never discredit Lukes accounts. The 4 accounts vary on what time, people, number or Angels, sequance of visits becasue they are written by 4 different poeple. . No one tried to sync them up. More believable this way.
@MRGV7373 And which "witnesses" do you think were around in 150 ad to argue? And why would clear examples of human error within the Gospels make the bible more believable as being the unerring word of God?
@vipersdragband Differnece of view point is not error. Is still dark and early morning the same or dirrerent? John 20:1-3 It was still dark and Mary magdalene show up first, She goes back to Peter and John and tells them that someone took the body of Jesus. No Angels Luke 241-5. Some women go to the tomb, very early Morning (dark). Both have Mary M. onsite and Peter running to the tomb. Mark 16: 1-9 Just after sun rise (dark?) 3 named women go to he tomb, No Jesus, One angel, Matt;28 Guards
@MRGV7373 What kind of error? HUMAN error? It is not a "difference of point of view" to have differing and often CONFLICTING information... And whose point of view are you discussing? That of the gospel writers who weren't there when these things took place?
@vipersdragband What I am getting at is that Conflicts don't mean error. "conflicts" just show different view points and different understandings of what went on, but are not Human errors. The 4 gospel writer write 4 similar event stories but they not the same. So they can have "conflicts" as you call them, and be true from an historical viewpoint. Jesus rose from the dead is the main point. 3 women and 2 men atleast can attest that who were at the tomb.
@MRGV7373 Actually all the 3 women and 2 men can attest to is that the tomb was empty. One can not have multiple truths of different facts and still say they are all true. Just as my analogy about your car accident, the one witness "believes" only 3 cars were involved (due to the tree in his way of seeing) but if there was potentially also video of the accident recorded, we could clearly show that he was in error. The same is tru of biblical stories. No vid provided yet SOMEONE is in error...
@vipersdragband Truth is what a person see and can attest to. the 5 would agree on the main story and they would have some difference in what they see and understand. If you if had it all recorded then you would know the exact truth. Since video recording did not exit, the best you get are eye witnesses and they will never be 100 the same story. Humans are not that perfect. The real question comes to: did Jesus rise from the dead? All 5 said so, they saw him later that night. John 20:19.
@MRGV7373 So the humans who witnessed and wrote the testimony are "not perfect" but the bible is the infallable word of God? Yet the same bible is filled with their imperfect writings? And once that's established as you have, then why should we suddenly believe what all 5 saw later that night?
@vipersdragband Humans will never be perfect and at the same time God will use what they write and witness to as what God wants humans to know. God's infallable word as writen by humans has the message of God even if humans don't write the full story. God uses imperfect humans all the time for His perfect message. God has done this for all of human history. I trust the 4 Gospel writers and they wrote what really happened. They saw tomb empty in the AM and saw Jesus alive in the PM.
@MRGV7373 Ah, I see the use of logic is now over :-) How do you know what "God's perfect message is" if it can only be written by imperfect humans? Trust has nothing to do with the logic you were previously attempting. The bible and its stories are from people 2000 years ago who had no concept of the workings of the natural world. There is no reason to trust their "word" any more than any other religious author of antiquity. And no, God has NOT done this for all human history...
@vipersdragband God's word can come in different forms and view points. It does not make the word an error, it just make it different. All the gospel accounts of the resurrection have the same baseline story, and they do have differences in darkness, morning, one or two angel, some have guards some omit the guards. Same 3 women show up, Jesus nowhere to be seen at first. Peter shows up. John only once shows up. The story line is consistant but each story has some different perspectives.
@vipersdragband No, the Prophet only tells of His dream and no one can verify a dream. Dreams are totally subjective. The death and resurrection of Jesus is seem by multiple people and Jewish soldiers, 120 desiples and other witnesses. If Jesus did not rise from the dead, the jews could just pull out the body of Jesus and show the people. The jewish leaders could not do it since it was Gone, a dead man came alive. Objective truth vs subjective dreams. Much better proof.
@MRGV7373 Telling his dream is the same thing that the Paul does (since he never met the living Jesus) Also your quote of "Jesus is seen by multiple people and Jewish soldiers, 120 desiples and other witnesses" is just that, a quote. We do not HAVE any of these testimonies by the soldiers or the 120 disciples or the "other witnesses." Two other things: its possible Jesus really wasn't dead and awoke and walked away. Its also possible that almost no one at the time cared.
@vipersdragband The Roman soldiers werer very good and getting people to die on crosses and making sure that they were truely dead. No one disputes that Jesus died unless you think that roman soldiers did not know what they were doing. The 120 plus witnesses stories are never recorded that have been found. You are right on Paul, he never met Jesus face to face with other people present. Only in dreams or visions. Paul can attest to Jesus from a subjective veiw point only. not as credible.
@MRGV7373 Actually some do dispute that Jesus died :-) Jesus was said to have a twin brother also, so who knows what happened? Also as you admit the 120 witnesses are a moot point. And sadly with regards to Paul almost all of our concepts of Christianity are based on his writings moreso than those who DID know the living Jesus.
@vipersdragband No historian, gospel writers, Jewish historians or roman historians have ever proposed that Jesus had a twin. I have read just about every writing on Jesus in 40 years and you are the first one to ever propose the idea. If this was so, a twin, every source of Jesus' life and family would have written about it. No one did, so it would be most unlikely, 100% unlikely. Jesus did die, no twin or swoning where involved. Funny ideas you propose.
@MRGV7373 Oh ye of little faith, it is not my problem that you have remained ignorant of the finer details of Christian history :-) You think I made that up? Merely google "did jesus have a twin?" and you will see for yourself that I don't make these things up...
I suggest you start reading writings on Jesus that were not written by "believers."
@vipersdragband Yes, the Gospel of Thomas, no credable historians have every take this writing to be true. Nice try even non-christians take the "gospel" of thomas as valid.
@MRGV7373 No "credible historians" take the Gospels to be true either. Besides what you wrote was "No historian, gospel writers, Jewish historians or roman historians have ever proposed that Jesus had a twin" so your first statement was not accurate and I have refuted it. Also have you read the Gospel of Thomas? Most of its sayings are identical to those in the main Gospels. So are you saying that all those shared sayings are ALSO not true?
@vipersdragband No credible historians have ever proposed it,as valid, hearsay only. Show me a valid source for the Gosple of St. Thomas. "Let none read the Gospel according to Thomas: for it is the work not of one of the twelve Apostles, but of one of the three wicked disciples of Manes..The 5th century Decretum Gelasianum includes "A Gospel attributed to Thomas which the Manichaean use" in its list of heretical books. Even the early church fathers knew it was bad history. See wikipedia.
@MRGV7373 Of course the "church fathers" considered it bad, they were the ones who CHOSE the books which became the bible. Also again, have you READ the Gospel of Thomas? There's no "history" in it, it is a list of sayings of Jesus. And again, I don't believe "credible" historians consider the bible "true" either. And yet AGAIN the main point was that you believed I had made my twin statement up. I didn't say I believed the gospel of Thomas any more than the other gospels :-)
@vipersdragband Yes, you did make the statement that Jesus has a twin. it is right their in writing, and it was the first time I had ever heard it. Now I know that you just copied it from some place else. How original!! So you have yet to disprove the Gospels and Jesus rising from the dead. bye bye, I have had enough.
@vipersdragband The bible has ancient ruins to show it has validity, 100s of witnesses and 2000 years of history to show its validity. What does yours have??Skiptics that only throw stones at history, can see no order in the universe, can't see God in the order of the universe, Life by accident. Do you really think this world and universe came into being be some random events.?Our lives show us that something created, somethng brought this into being.Do we fully understand it? No God Does.
@MRGV7373 The ruins do not show that Jesus was the divine son of God, only that the places existed. 2000 years of belief does not make them true. Skeptics do not throw stones at history but at Christian dogma. And the possibility of a godlike presence also does not make the bible any truer than any other religion...
@vipersdragband Ruins show that the places, times and events that are recorded about Jesus took place. You can only come to God in Jesus by faith. You can never prove God by science or history. Sceptics will doubt history which is not proven by science. No history is proven by science. So you have to make a choice. Do you trust that what was writen about Jesus is true or False? That is the question.You either trust in history or you don't. I could be wrong or you could be. I will trust it
@MRGV7373 Ruins do not show "events." History has nothing to do with the dogma of Christianity. And considering you are commenting upon a video which had Kirk Cameron as your spokesperson nothing you have just said surprises me or inspires me. But thanks for trying :-)
@vipersdragband I have come to the conclusion that faith is the only way to know God. Faith is believing in thing not seen.. Fairth is the only way to know God. This faith is not blind faith, but faith with a faith in history. I can never inspire you, God has to do that. I got myself in so much trouble that I needed a savior. I would have destroyed myself without Jesus. I could do all things well as a human but I had no love. Love drove me to God. Which I Give thanks to God. peace
@vipersdragband The apocryphal Acts of Thomas, apparently written in Syria in the third century, is the source of the legend that this disciple became a missionary in India. The text also asserts that Thomas was the brother of Jesus. Likwise, this claim appears in one of the gnostic Nag Hammadi documents. So not the twin but brother. Not listed as a brother by John in his Gospel. 300 years after Jesus lived. John, Matt, Mark and Luke 30 -70 years after Jesus lived were written.
@vipersdragband Funny the name means twin, and the twin was Thomas twin, the other brother is never talked about. So why do you bring it up, so that Jesus really died and than Thomas took his place.? Thomas did not even trust what the other Apostles said tha Jesus rose from the dead. So Thomas, who did not believe, tooks Jesus place? What fantacy do you live in??
@MRGV7373 Again you are erroneously assuming that I am the source for these ideas. I have given no indication that I believe this possibility any more than any others. It was merely in answer to one of your previous claims. There are also stories that Simon of Cyrene took Jesus' place on the cross. I don't believe it more than other stories either, but I also did not just make it up. Also, I thought you had had enough?
@vipersdragband If you saw a car crash and 3 other people saw the crash from 4 different view points and wrote about the crash, would the writing be the same? Each view point would have a different view, what sequence the crash happened, who saw the event. What you would write would be right on the main events but the details would have conflicts, timing issues, who came first, second... If you are wrote the same thing, I would conclude that you made up the story. Same event, diifferent story
@MRGV7373 But what are you referring to? Are you implying that when the various women came to the empty tomb and "witnessed" it, that there were ALSO 4 different observers (not mentioned in the bible) to that event and that they each wrote a different account?
@vipersdragband The example of a car accident is to point out one historical event - the crash - could have 4 different stories, all true from the writers perspectve. Just like the 4 gospel writers about Jesus death and resurrection. Different view but the same true story. No conflicts just different story lines. All true but different.
@MRGV7373 Yes, it COULD have 4 different stories, but that does NOT make them all true. One story from an eyewitness could say 3 cars were involved in an accident because a tree blocked his view of the 4th car which the others saw. The eyewitness who saw only 3 cars is completely telling the "truth" of what he saw, yet that doesn't make his eyewitness account true.
@pynic29 the Apostles John and Matthew are both eye witness of Jesus Life, death and resurrection. Gospel of John and Mat. Peter in Acts is an eye witness. Paul met many eye witnesses. 1 john tell has t
She raises great points, but I hate how her voice sounds.
KulTobin 4 days ago
"There is more evidence of credibility of the bible than any history.Therefore, to throw out the bible is to throw out any profane history of the world." - Sir Isaac Newton
Singetally 6 days ago
i wish she would explain her dress...sheesh
jamomma500 1 week ago
Kelly - you should really check your scholarly consensus on the existence of Jesus Christ. Most disagree with you. In fact in Richard Dawkins God Delusion book he only referenced one scholar to show the non existence of Christ. And he was a German professor. He didn't even interview specialists in the field of history, archaeology or theology. Se Dr Gary Habermas' work also on this and other Christ gods in history.
MrAliyak 2 weeks ago
Try the YouTube video "Jesus was a real person. PROOF outside of the Bible".
MrJgkeeling 3 weeks ago
Jesus / Yeshua is mentioned numerous times in Jewish manuscripts (Talmud), but there are also numerous historical documents of Jesus by non believers. If you want to reject Him as Messiah I can understand but to dismiss Him historically is preposterous.
MrJgkeeling 3 weeks ago
none of the sides seems rational.
giorgiv18 1 month ago
0:29 what was that wink for???
1KevinsFamousChili1 1 month ago
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1KevinsFamousChili1 1 month ago
so ray's basic argument is that the bible is true by default and anything in it should be believed without recourse to any other inquiry? what a ridiculous thing to say. there is not a shred of evidence that the bible is accurate about jesus and who he was or what he did. to say otherwise is to be a credulous fool. extraordinary claims require extaordinary evidence. why would i believe such claims just because some book says it happened?
lordscully 1 month ago
So this woman says there is no proof that Jesus even existed? So the Apostles were willing to die horrible deaths for a myth? I don't think so. The five hundred or so witness who saw HIm after his resurrection were all mass hallucinating? I don't think so! There were several others that confirmed the historicity of Jesus besides only Josephus. It is sad when people hate the Savior so much, they are willing to blasphemy God & His Son Just like the pharisees did.
mRUSSIA 1 month ago
@mRUSSIA firstly, the reference to josephus is considered by historians to be a forgery which was added by someone else much later. please enlighten me as to who these several others that referenced jesus are? not a single person at the time jesus was supposedly preaching and doing miracles ever seems to have thought it worthy of mention. any mention of him at all came decades after his death. i find that highly suspicious. give me one person who mentions him at the time he supposedly lived.
lordscully 1 month ago
@lordscully Pliny Governor of Bithynia, the Roman historian Tacitur, Suetonius a Roman writer all testify to the historicity of Jesus Christ. Also even though some claim that the writings of Josephus concerning Christ were a forgery, "the passage stands in all standard texts and can be defended." Jackson. Also these people that claim Jesus didn't exist weren't there. The apostles were. Also do you really think someone would be willing to die for a mythical character?
mRUSSIA 1 month ago
@mRUSSIA There have been quite a few cults who committed mass suicide or died fighting for their leaders. Fanaticism does not prove the truth of what they believed.
backwoodsninja 4 weeks ago
@backwoodsninja w
MrJgkeeling 3 weeks ago
@mRUSSIA
So you're saying that Allah ins't the one true God and Muhammad isn't his prophet? So some muslims were willing to commit suicide for a myth?
See how absurd that logic is?
alienisuntverus 4 weeks ago
The mind will argue intelligently as best as it is equipped to, on any subject, but will limit the discussions based on the structure of belief or knowledge that it has made for itself which is solely dependent on its own limitations.
shimwah 1 month ago
The question isn't so much about a 'Jesus' existing - but that he was some mortal aspect of a supposed God...that is why I'll never believe in that. If I found absolute evidence that a man called Jesus existed and was good to people (don't mention miracles please) then crucified by the Romans ...it would make no difference to my belief in the sciences over religion.
March6371 1 month ago
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Manahyde 1 month ago
intonation Haparanda.
we31ku58vk 1 month ago
matt slick schools these atheist clowns
DeJay14 1 month ago
She brought out the bomb...Jesus never existed. Ray on the ropes. Josephus never mentioned Jesus. That one quote supposedly from Josephus was proven fraudulent.
bryanttillman 2 months ago 2
@bryanttillman not true
yahwehforeternity 1 month ago
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@bryanttillman In his Annals, written around 116 AD, Roman historian and senator Tacitus refers to Christ's crucifixion by Pontius Pilate and mentions the fact that Christians lived in Rome. Historians consider this to be a reliable history. There are others. It's an historical fact that Nero persecuted Christians. Of whom were these Christians disciples if not Jesus? Plus, whether you believe them are not, there are eyewitness accounts which mockers deny.
luvmusic09 1 month ago
and 02:00 exactly how i feel about these biblebangers...
preetor1 2 months ago
00:29 she did the sarah palins...
preetor1 2 months ago
The problem that these non-believers have is that many, many people living today, myself included, have had encounters with Jesus.
Sin is real and God sent Jesus to deal with the removal of it. Soon He'll be returning!!
guyNbluejeans 2 months ago
@guyNbluejeans
what will happen if that "sin" removed?
chesster423 2 months ago
@chesster423 If one accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior -- and does their best to live a holy and righteous life (because that's what Jesus is) -- then all the sins become washed away and one has eternal paradise with God(!!!) ... to look forward to when their spirit leaves this world.
Jesus, who was a carpenter in this world, also says that He builds each person a mansion that is theirs to keep. (One can't begin to imagine how plush and beautiful those mansions must be!!!)
guyNbluejeans 2 months ago
@guyNbluejeans
oh... so that's what you believe then....
If I rape many girls, shoot any human and accept Jesus as my savior, will all my sins be forgiven and avoid eternal punishment?
chesster423 2 months ago
@chesster423 Jesus will make what decision He feels is best in that scenario.
guyNbluejeans 2 months ago
@guyNbluejeans
therefore your belief is not absolute. Thanks!
chesster423 2 months ago
@chesster423 You're being a brick. You seem to think everything about Biblical truth is either or. But things are such that deep and meaningful discussions can be derived ... .
guyNbluejeans 2 months ago
@guyNbluejeans
Is the bible really true? In your own honest opinion.
chesster423 2 months ago
@chesster423 In my view the Christian Bible is VERY significant. As Socrates said long ago, truth is like a barn door; one can't help but hit some of it while at the same time one can't hit all of it. But does that mean that the Bible is totally true? I'm not sure due to a great deal coming down to whether or not the individual reflecting on it feels it's true for him or her.
I know I've had things that I thought were BS about it come back years later to show me that I was wrong in my assesment
guyNbluejeans 2 months ago
@supbiznatches well if you are supposed to be a self respecting athiest like these people thinking in such a way where you have to use vulgar language to prove a point when you could simply show if you actually know if what you believe to be true yet you cannot present any information to me or the other people yet you just persecute and ridicule people of this belief without knowing whether what you are saying is true or not
crazyman2994 2 months ago
u know what i would actually believe kirk and ray only because of how mature they are being throughout the entire debate. they had every opportunity to flip out just like these atheists are. i can't believe how immature those two were just by looking away from ray and how horrible they are acting. kirk and ray have been calm, reasonable, and patient the entire time.
dascienceguy 3 months ago 2
Ive heard someone say this debate is like Ned Flanders debating Otto the bus driver Lol I agree.
MrBakura91 3 months ago
@thinkertank I agree. Somebody shut her up
MegaSleep1 3 months ago
@DaBluedude100 "The truth lies in science, logic, and philosophy." The Holy Bible contains all these. The Book of Proverbs would be a great example for logic and philosophy. Did you know that in the Bible it mentions that the Universe is expanding? Or that the Earth is a sphere instead of flat ground? Read the Bible more please.
David325ful 3 months ago
I understand how religion can easily make profit out of people. We see how scientology can manipulate people's emotions which isn't right. But is the point of insulting religion to make them sound stupid, or to make them understand the importance of science and logic? My main mission is to make religious people allow kids to learn true science and evolution.
jedidavisWAMPA 3 months ago
how can you debate banana-man and keep a straight-face??? come on!!!!
eggius 3 months ago
@eggius Id like to stick a banana up his ass and tell him it must be proof that he is a fag...
DaBluedude100 3 months ago
idiots shall always outnumber the learned, it's a sad fact that the mob shall always be the anchor that keeps us from true enlightenment.
TheIronomega 3 months ago
the bible is self-proven without a doubt.. it has even shaped me. I recommend you people to read it and stop resisting the truth.
David325ful 3 months ago
@David325ful The bible is a collection of bs written by men. It holds no truth, it provides very little moral guidance, and it provides justification for everything when put in different lights. Its stupid, holds nothing of value other than the heat that can be released from the pages upon combustion. If you are shaped by it then you are miss-shapen and twisted. The truth lies in science, logic, and philosophy. Religion is holding mankind back. Wake the fuck up!
DaBluedude100 3 months ago
I skipped around these videos, but I assume the lady and the big guy are anti religion?
Perhaps if those two spoke in a manner that was more polite like Kirk and his dude, perhaps other religious viewers wouldn't feel like they were being attacked and criticized.
The lady and guy's rhetoric and mannerisms was disrespectful.
I would give those two a plus because they are for logical thinking and a plus for the pro religion because they were speaking politely. Both sides need to reconsider.
jedidavisWAMPA 3 months ago
@jedidavisWAMPA maybe because atheists have had the short stick and are still being bullied and discriminated in a lot of countries that they are fed up with it
toverkleet 3 months ago
@toverkleet 1st: may be so. however, when one representative acts in a way that is hostile towards the other, the rest of the group will remember the bad things the most and assume every single atheist are trying to attack them; the one rotten apple in the barrel. perhaps if atheists with outspoken ideas did not speak vehemently, perhaps there could be a better understand towards evolutionary theory or science or example.
jedidavisWAMPA 3 months ago
@toverkleet 2: BUT, i do feel your part of the stick because it's so hard to get through their thick skulls. i mean their rebuttals don't even get to the point, but lingers to tangents. even the audience get ticked off lol.
jedidavisWAMPA 3 months ago
@jedidavisWAMPA and their responses are incredibly stupid. The bible is a book right why does it holdd more value then the history books? History books at least have been researched. The bible is just taken blindly, by these types of 'christians'(cause I dont know which way they swing, mormon, catholic protestant). Its the pinacle of ignorance and in a way, hypocritical to call atheists out on history books bdlievin in them and at the same time hold no question against their own book.
toverkleet 3 months ago
@jedidavisWAMPA I think you miss the point. The point is not to be polite, the point is to insult and jeer Religion out of mainstream society. It should be poked and prodded out of existence in the most direct, peaceful ways possible. I have had enough of religious nuts coming to my door or littering me with pamphlets about how their god is going to save me for just 3 easy payments of 69.95 and a lifetime of mind enslavement. I think religion should be exposed for fraud and driven from society.
DaBluedude100 3 months ago
@DaBluedude100 2nd reply: It's unfortunate that we learn early proponents of anti-Christianity and science were too outspoken that their ego has made science seem so suspicious because people think science is trying to get rid of religion. Even current atheists or anti-Christians still act the same way, speaking vehemently towards them. A true scientist shows humility and constructive criticism, and science never was meant to replace religion, only to see a new way of understanding life.
jedidavisWAMPA 3 months ago
@jedidavisWAMPA I must disagree with you. Science seeks truth through theory, repeatable, testable, and logical testing. The pursuit for actual knowledge is science. Sure there are ego driven scientists but they are not lying about their true results. No one would claim they could prove something only to have it dis-proven immediately. Sure science has never sought to replace religion but it now explains much of what religion laid claim to. Religion now seeks a dangerous anti science view.
DaBluedude100 3 months ago
@DaBluedude100 Yes, the part about repeatable, testable parts, I agree with you. I guess what I'm trying to say is some egotistical atheists may act pretentious, similar to a religious studies person. But what i would like is to have religious people to not interfere with scientific teachings. You dont like them knocking on your door, I don't like how people send their kids to private schools teaching about creationism, rather evolution.
jedidavisWAMPA 3 months ago
She is right. There is no mention to Jesus...only the gospels, about 30 years later...weird, isn' t?
LowresTV 3 months ago
I can't believe thewayofthemaster uploaded this clip as though it supported their case. "ALL RECORDED HISTORY IS A LIE!". Yea, great arguement fucking morons.
xMADD1x 3 months ago
Oh man I really know how the atheists feel. My expressions mimick the guys before I even see him grimacing. This is so annoying.
MrNicMachiavelli 3 months ago
I wanna hear this woman say " Deep down in my heart.... I still love you!"
joestudio901 4 months ago
is deffinitly says circle not sphere
chasev619 4 months ago
get over it! jesus is a myth!
temujin667 4 months ago
this lady, hot though she is, is either very ignorant, lying or trying to find excuses that Jesus was a myth...at the very least he was a real human
leonetski 4 months ago
I would recommend several of Bart Ehrman's books such as "Jesus Interrupted" and "Jesus Misquoted". If you would like to see a basic overview of Ehrman's position on the historical Jesus you can also find a youtube video called "Did Jesus Exist - Bart Ehrman vs. Reginald Finley".
wlemusic 4 months ago
According to renowned best selling author and New Testament scholar, Dr. Bart Ehrman (agnostic btw), there is not one serious historian who disputes the existence of Jesus in 1st century Palestine. In fact, there is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than any other figure in antiquity. For Kelly to assert that Jesus never existed only shows her massive ignorance on the topic. Historians do dispute the veracity of his sayings and the events of his life but certainly not his existence.
wlemusic 4 months ago
@wlemusic Can you send me a personal message with those sources? I'm an atheist and all I could search for historical evidence of jesus was the new testament (that was written after the death of jesus) and some authors that lived AFTER the supposed death of jesus.
I want to contrast that with your sources so I can challenge my views.
thanks.
lautaa33 4 months ago
@lautaa33 Jesus was a real person and if you would like to know a saints opinion of Jesus then read about Paramahansa Yogananda who had visions of Jesus...notovitch wrote a book in late 1800s about Jesus going to india, nepal and tibet during the 18 years that the bible doesnt say much about him..it is well known in India that JC traveled there
leonetski 4 months ago
@leonetski When it comes to wether jesuschris existed or not, you can't rely on accounts. We have accounts of people with aliens. Do you believe in aliens because of that? Historians search other things to prove the existance of something.
lautaa33 4 months ago
@lautaa33 Dr ehrman basically laughs at people who say Jesus did not exist and he is a historian...i believe aliens visited this earth too and so does apollo astronaut dr edgar mitchell who grew up in roswell and personally knew many of the people who saw the aliens and spacecraft...i live near the famous betty and barney hill abduction scene and that is a legiititmate case and i have also known credible people who have seen UFOs the size of a aircraft carrier
leonetski 4 months ago
@leonetski oh so you are just a joiner. so you also believe in spirits, alternative medicine, mind control and all things right?
lautaa33 4 months ago
More bad news for Kirk and Ray:
cbsnews.com/stories/2011/09/08/scitech/main20103228.shtml
cutis1000 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
O that cunning plan of the evil one ! O the vainness and the frailties , and the foolishness of men ! When they are learned they think they are wise , and they hearken not unto the counsel of God , for they set it aside , supposing they know of themselves, wherefore their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not . And they shall perish .
And whoso knocketh ,to him will he open ;and the wise and the learned ,and they that are rich ,who are puffed up because of their learning ,he despiseth
mollymu1 4 months ago
brian as well. dont get so defensive. atheism takes belief as well. if you believe there is no God. then you are putting your FAITH in it and backing it up. athism contridicts it self. the atheist side is a turn off anyway becasue of the anger they hold when they speak. i'll follow the christians because of their character. there must be a Jesus son of God.
BFFFL16 5 months ago
on kelly's part....she shouldnt be so attitudy when kirk and ray are being so nice with soft answers. A gift from God is peace. thats what kirk and ray have. kelly is being attitudy and looking for claps and responses from the audiences, kirk and ray are not. read Proverbs 15:1. this is a good example of not being ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Every knee will bow and tongue confess romans 14:11
BFFFL16 5 months ago
@BFFFL16 Atheism isn't a belief, it's a lack thereof. I don't believe in your god for the same reason i don't believe in any other god, because there is no testable, repeatable, proven evidence. The burden of proof lies on why you believe in your god and not all the other thousands of religions, including the ones that historically/anthropologically predated your religion.
8bitasplode 4 months ago
@8bitasplode atheist ask alot of "why" questions when everything does not need and answer. to many whys will confuse u and cause u not to believe, digging a hole deeper than u wanna go, just to be honest. its way more energy to try to deny God than just to believe. no rock can tell me that he lived and no rock can tell me that he created it or not. i feel it in my HEART. the word of God Stands on its own so i dont need to defend it. Read it for yourself. its no harm done, alot a good for YOU:)
BFFFL16 4 months ago
This woman's voice is like nails on a chalkboard.
thinkertank1 5 months ago 22
@thinkertank1 It is very difficult to listen to and that's why I'm glad she doesn't speek to much.
Belial21319 3 months ago
@thinkertank1
I agree!!!! Oh wow, she just said something totally stupid!!!!
hope1029384756 2 months ago
@thinkertank1 Actually, It's like nails on a cross.
BluePlaca73 1 month ago
"they were looming around every corner!!" XD
speedx50 5 months ago
guilty athiests?! 1:58
KJFilmProductions 5 months ago
Regardless of who's right, the Atheist party comes across as proud while the Christian party comes across as ignorant. Neither party are good debating material.
H0tkebab 5 months ago
This video = Face palm.
H0tkebab 5 months ago
Lol, you can't trust books now trust our book.
biggingeryeti 5 months ago
Abraham was not a Jew.
Jesus was not a Xtian.
Muhammad was not a Muslim.
Get real people, and please think critically of whom you worship.
ShawnsterVideos 6 months ago
" THIS IS THE "SWINE" THE BIBLE SPEAKS ABOUT , DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME TALKING TO THIS "WOMAN" ABOUT "GOD" BECAUSE AS THE "BIBLE PUTS IT DON'T CAST YOUR PEARLS BEFORE "SWINE"...!
robbypjr 6 months ago
You can condemn that we have faith in dozens of consistent history books, while you have faith in a book full of self-inconsistencies. What's that guys? Double standard!
I just want to laugh at that guy who says: you have faith in history books, I have faith in the words (or just a book?) of the living God. <-------Time to forget about the biological definition of "living"
AkasakaS2000 6 months ago
I love how Comfort's proof that the bible is the word of god is that the bible says it's the word of god.
P.S. This comment is the word of god.
pyrobryan 6 months ago 25
@pyrobryan
That's why creationists said the fossil record is a circular fallacy, they know that fallacy VERY well!!
GvsoMagnvs 4 months ago
@pyrobryan The bible is the word of God, the bible says its the word of God and the bible prophecies also prove its the word of God. When you move from intellect into experience through having a personally relationship with God himself you will know it's the word of God also. Untill then, you can argue as much as you like but it doesn't change the facts.
devonbiker 3 months ago
@devonbiker Priceless! Your response to the circular logic that the bible is the word of god because it says so is that that the bible is the word of god because it says so.
Circular logic within circular logic. We must go deeper. BWOOOOOONNNNGGGGG!
This comment is also the word of god. (It says it is so it must be, right?)
pyrobryan 3 months ago
@pyrobryan Wrong, you obviously have never read AND understood it. There's no other book like it. Just cause the book itself says it is the word of God is only part of it. The fact that it is, is because of how reliable it is, how truthful it is, how accurate it is. Sixty six books, written by 40 people, different walks of like shepherds to kings, written over 1500 years, written in 3 different languages, is it remarkably coherent. Every bible prophecy about Jesus 1st coming was fulfilled 100%.
devonbiker 3 months ago
Rays Response was spot on when he replied to Kelly..... "you have got so much faith in history books, you quote history books like their gospel but you ignore the gospel records. Whenever you quote history books it shows you've got blind faith in the words of man - we have the words of the living God in the bible" says it all. Kelly was quoting from history books to suit her viewpoint but ignored the bible which has loads more weighty evidence in its' favor.
devonbiker 3 months ago
@devonbiker no it doesn't. One is arguing for faith and magic. The other is not.
MrNicMachiavelli 3 months ago
@MrNicMachiavelli You need to check your facts, the historical evidence for the bible (new testiment in particular) embarrasses other secular historical figures of the time. So it's not magic and we don't follow Jesus on blind faith either. have you researched the evidence yourself?
devonbiker 3 months ago
@pyrobryan The word of god, maybe you should look at historical evidence proclaiming jesus' existence after 2-years after his death speaking of his divinity and his existence
kingseho 2 months ago
@kingseho I think you are lying. who mentions jesus and his miracles 2 years after his death? I'll be happy to concede if it checks out. i have read up on the historicity of jesus and historian's seem to be unaware of this author. please do share this important information with the rest of us. until you can do so i'll consider you to be full of shit.
lordscully 1 month ago
shes goofy
Sk8gangsta1 6 months ago
Kelly and the other guy are correct
MrLovejoy91 6 months ago 3
Poor Kelly thinks she knows a lot more and even better she thinks she is correct. Thing is she knows nothing of what she speaks of. Ignorance is the only thing i see and hear when i look at her and the other man.
*Comment on my statement if you simply cannot help yourselves youtubers but you will all come to find out later.
MegaLoveRevolution 6 months ago
1) Proported?
2) I'm sure it's a Freudian slip on his part, but Comfort equates his gospel with history books, which he calls also calls "gospel". I've found this to happen a lot, by calling atheism a "religion just like other religions". This is a fundamental (pardon the pun) misunderstanding about atheism; Atheism is a lack of belief in the supernatural. We are waiting for extraordinary evidence to prove this extraordinary claim, regardless of the faith involved. The onus is not on us.
quj0r 6 months ago
first off the pharisee wanted to silence Jesus and they said look how the world goes after Him, so no they wouldn't keep records of His excistance, second I find it amazing if Jesus was not that well known I find it amazing He is a household name today, and don't give me the Catholics made it up because they contradict the very bible they helped preserve which to me is more evendence God preserves His word
JessaMesss 6 months ago
Don't tell me Ray Comfort is not coveting in this debate.
homeofbrokendreams 6 months ago
@homeofbrokendreams What's he coveting? What is he after?
HemmHon 6 months ago
@HemmHon The lady?
homeofbrokendreams 6 months ago
I have to admit that Kelly is a terrible speaker...but shes beautiful and intelligent, score 1 for the atheists
bucketheadkfc 7 months ago
I'd like to try some 1 on 1 creationism with Kelly.
Yallniggasbetrollin 7 months ago
Typical disrespectful and ignorant Atheists...
Wunji1 7 months ago
My issue with this is the complete "disrespect" that was showed when the Christians were speaking. I will NEVER listen to someone who when being shown politeness while they spoke returned a "sigh", "rolling of the eyes", and yes.. I wanted to slap that wink right off her face when she spoke so rudely to the other people. Whatever FAITH they have... I don't want it.
PrincessZorlon 7 months ago 2
2:09. "Self-proving."
If you believe that, you'll believe anything.
Which you do.
StrumstickJoe 7 months ago
They christian guy with the moustache has an interesting blind spot. His tries to refute the idea that the conclusions to be drawn from the pagan written historical record aren't valid because it is just a book. He then goes on to argue that the information in the bible, a book, is valid.
For this to work, he has to have it both ways by saying, "evidence derived from scholarship is only valid when it is the scholarship that *I* accept as valid."
Kinda silly.
sorokahdeen 7 months ago
It's sad that this is all that Kirk can get a gig at nowadays. lol
TwistedDrummer69 7 months ago
LOL all the stupid comments crack me up what fools
greenhornet123 7 months ago
She starts off talking about first century and then she says that Josephus isn't contemporaneous. The thing is, these people thing that the extant records of history from that period are exhaustive. They are not. But the New Testament was written closer to that period than what these people can come up with, and they choose to discount it.
usenetposts 7 months ago
Well according to Kelly several roman historians of the era where all liars then. Go look up the records of Mara Bar Serapio. Or is that Syrian historical records don't count in Kelly's mind? Kelly ignores evidence that disagrees with her position and then she makes sweeping generalizations that are wrong
Proemed 7 months ago
Yes Ray we all read the bible so we know it is crap. Stop pretending we don't know.
The world sitting on turtles backs was never a scientific belief is was religion and folklaw that claimed this, was it a deliberate lie or ignorance Ray.
These two don't care about reality or facts just promoting thier position and boost sales of the DVD's. He has a quick mouth but no substance, I note many staments are strait from the sales training to trap the other with deciet.
VideoAudioDisco09 7 months ago
Kelly.. email me.
TheGrahamBrechin 7 months ago
Jesus was written about by the famous historian Josephus, who was a contemporary of Jesus, and not a Christian.
GaileHarms 7 months ago
Kelly is hot and convincing.
tyroy57 7 months ago
Brian and Kelly look like they were just forced to take castor oil. What a shame Kirk and Ray didn't bring up the archaeological finds of; Noah's ark, the scorched black mountain top where Moses received the Ten Commandments, parts from chariots and skeletal remains in the Red Sea, Ninevah (which scholars say never existed). Additionally, the Jews didn't want any knowledge or gospel of Jesus Christ spread.They rejected him as Messiah. So logically they wouldn't have recorded any information pe
brianb1269 7 months ago 2
The Gospels prove what the Gospels say? That's like saying the story of Paul Bunyan must be true, because he is mentioned in the Story of Paul Bunyan.
purpleminnow 7 months ago
I don't know how many times I smacked my forehead at Kirk and his buddy. What a bunch of delusional idiots
oceanis23 8 months ago
How funny is that thru this whole debate they pulled the crocoduck idiousy!
joctheviper1 8 months ago 2
It's only a "best seller" because it tells the desperate/downtrodden what they want to hear and conjures up unfalsifiable answers to unknowable questions. It is popular because it is an opiate.
Damienf77 8 months ago
Even IF the Gospels were written around the time of Jesus' life (and there is no evidence at all to support this contention, only wishful thinking) why is it no other historian of the day remarked upon any of Jesus' exploits between the ages of twelve and thirty?
zapkvr 8 months ago
@pynic29 the New testament had many eye witness, See ACTs of the Apostles and read it. It tell the story right after Jesus died and tell of the jewish history of what the leadership of the Jews understood and tells of the witnesses of Jesus life, death and resurrection. Even the leaders of the Jews knew what had happened and tried to cover it up lest they loose money from temple income. Read it and see what you think. Is it real? Does it sound fake? Give it a try. you might learn something
MRGV7373 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 Yes, it sounds fake.
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@vipersdragband How so, like it is staged. Why would some one fake thier time in Jail or stoning or how about getting run through with a sword? CS Lewis said he when something was real or not real and He came to the conclusion that is was an eye witness account.
MRGV7373 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 Why would you need to assume that anything you listed was faked? It was not the "actors" in the story who potentially faked the events, but the author who wrote about them. And CS Lewis is no more an authority on what is an eyewitness account than you or I am...
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@vipersdragband So why would the author write down something that was not real and spend all the time writing Luke and Acts? Other real witness would know that the materials were "fake" and discard the writing as nonhistorical which no one ever did. Luke was a doctor and considered quite briliant and sincere. Why would Luke go to such ends if he is writng this as an eye witness of Paul's journeys?
MRGV7373 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 For conversion purposes obviously :-) Why do you assume that Israel 2000 years ago had the capability of mass printing and communication whereby the "witnesses" would know what Luke wrote? All of the "writings" in the bible were decided upon hundreds of years after being written far past when all witnesses ceased to exist. Ask yourself why the 4 main gospel writers don't agree on WHO came to see Jesus' empty tomb, or who was waiting there when they did....
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@vipersdragband The writing that got into the New Testament where widely circulated before the bible was put together in 325 AD. Lukes writing are much referenced by 150ad and later. So their were read by many churches across the Roman Empire. Other witnesses never discredit Lukes accounts. The 4 accounts vary on what time, people, number or Angels, sequance of visits becasue they are written by 4 different poeple. . No one tried to sync them up. More believable this way.
MRGV7373 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 And which "witnesses" do you think were around in 150 ad to argue? And why would clear examples of human error within the Gospels make the bible more believable as being the unerring word of God?
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@vipersdragband Differnece of view point is not error. Is still dark and early morning the same or dirrerent? John 20:1-3 It was still dark and Mary magdalene show up first, She goes back to Peter and John and tells them that someone took the body of Jesus. No Angels Luke 241-5. Some women go to the tomb, very early Morning (dark). Both have Mary M. onsite and Peter running to the tomb. Mark 16: 1-9 Just after sun rise (dark?) 3 named women go to he tomb, No Jesus, One angel, Matt;28 Guards
MRGV7373 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 What kind of error? HUMAN error? It is not a "difference of point of view" to have differing and often CONFLICTING information... And whose point of view are you discussing? That of the gospel writers who weren't there when these things took place?
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@vipersdragband What I am getting at is that Conflicts don't mean error. "conflicts" just show different view points and different understandings of what went on, but are not Human errors. The 4 gospel writer write 4 similar event stories but they not the same. So they can have "conflicts" as you call them, and be true from an historical viewpoint. Jesus rose from the dead is the main point. 3 women and 2 men atleast can attest that who were at the tomb.
MRGV7373 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 Actually all the 3 women and 2 men can attest to is that the tomb was empty. One can not have multiple truths of different facts and still say they are all true. Just as my analogy about your car accident, the one witness "believes" only 3 cars were involved (due to the tree in his way of seeing) but if there was potentially also video of the accident recorded, we could clearly show that he was in error. The same is tru of biblical stories. No vid provided yet SOMEONE is in error...
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@vipersdragband Truth is what a person see and can attest to. the 5 would agree on the main story and they would have some difference in what they see and understand. If you if had it all recorded then you would know the exact truth. Since video recording did not exit, the best you get are eye witnesses and they will never be 100 the same story. Humans are not that perfect. The real question comes to: did Jesus rise from the dead? All 5 said so, they saw him later that night. John 20:19.
MRGV7373 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 So the humans who witnessed and wrote the testimony are "not perfect" but the bible is the infallable word of God? Yet the same bible is filled with their imperfect writings? And once that's established as you have, then why should we suddenly believe what all 5 saw later that night?
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@vipersdragband Humans will never be perfect and at the same time God will use what they write and witness to as what God wants humans to know. God's infallable word as writen by humans has the message of God even if humans don't write the full story. God uses imperfect humans all the time for His perfect message. God has done this for all of human history. I trust the 4 Gospel writers and they wrote what really happened. They saw tomb empty in the AM and saw Jesus alive in the PM.
MRGV7373 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 Ah, I see the use of logic is now over :-) How do you know what "God's perfect message is" if it can only be written by imperfect humans? Trust has nothing to do with the logic you were previously attempting. The bible and its stories are from people 2000 years ago who had no concept of the workings of the natural world. There is no reason to trust their "word" any more than any other religious author of antiquity. And no, God has NOT done this for all human history...
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@vipersdragband God's word can come in different forms and view points. It does not make the word an error, it just make it different. All the gospel accounts of the resurrection have the same baseline story, and they do have differences in darkness, morning, one or two angel, some have guards some omit the guards. Same 3 women show up, Jesus nowhere to be seen at first. Peter shows up. John only once shows up. The story line is consistant but each story has some different perspectives.
MRGV7373 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 It could be then that the Koran is true as well....
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@vipersdragband No, the Prophet only tells of His dream and no one can verify a dream. Dreams are totally subjective. The death and resurrection of Jesus is seem by multiple people and Jewish soldiers, 120 desiples and other witnesses. If Jesus did not rise from the dead, the jews could just pull out the body of Jesus and show the people. The jewish leaders could not do it since it was Gone, a dead man came alive. Objective truth vs subjective dreams. Much better proof.
MRGV7373 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 Telling his dream is the same thing that the Paul does (since he never met the living Jesus) Also your quote of "Jesus is seen by multiple people and Jewish soldiers, 120 desiples and other witnesses" is just that, a quote. We do not HAVE any of these testimonies by the soldiers or the 120 disciples or the "other witnesses." Two other things: its possible Jesus really wasn't dead and awoke and walked away. Its also possible that almost no one at the time cared.
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@vipersdragband The Roman soldiers werer very good and getting people to die on crosses and making sure that they were truely dead. No one disputes that Jesus died unless you think that roman soldiers did not know what they were doing. The 120 plus witnesses stories are never recorded that have been found. You are right on Paul, he never met Jesus face to face with other people present. Only in dreams or visions. Paul can attest to Jesus from a subjective veiw point only. not as credible.
MRGV7373 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 Actually some do dispute that Jesus died :-) Jesus was said to have a twin brother also, so who knows what happened? Also as you admit the 120 witnesses are a moot point. And sadly with regards to Paul almost all of our concepts of Christianity are based on his writings moreso than those who DID know the living Jesus.
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@vipersdragband No historian, gospel writers, Jewish historians or roman historians have ever proposed that Jesus had a twin. I have read just about every writing on Jesus in 40 years and you are the first one to ever propose the idea. If this was so, a twin, every source of Jesus' life and family would have written about it. No one did, so it would be most unlikely, 100% unlikely. Jesus did die, no twin or swoning where involved. Funny ideas you propose.
MRGV7373 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 Oh ye of little faith, it is not my problem that you have remained ignorant of the finer details of Christian history :-) You think I made that up? Merely google "did jesus have a twin?" and you will see for yourself that I don't make these things up...
I suggest you start reading writings on Jesus that were not written by "believers."
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@vipersdragband Yes, the Gospel of Thomas, no credable historians have every take this writing to be true. Nice try even non-christians take the "gospel" of thomas as valid.
MRGV7373 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 No "credible historians" take the Gospels to be true either. Besides what you wrote was "No historian, gospel writers, Jewish historians or roman historians have ever proposed that Jesus had a twin" so your first statement was not accurate and I have refuted it. Also have you read the Gospel of Thomas? Most of its sayings are identical to those in the main Gospels. So are you saying that all those shared sayings are ALSO not true?
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@vipersdragband No credible historians have ever proposed it,as valid, hearsay only. Show me a valid source for the Gosple of St. Thomas. "Let none read the Gospel according to Thomas: for it is the work not of one of the twelve Apostles, but of one of the three wicked disciples of Manes..The 5th century Decretum Gelasianum includes "A Gospel attributed to Thomas which the Manichaean use" in its list of heretical books. Even the early church fathers knew it was bad history. See wikipedia.
MRGV7373 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 Of course the "church fathers" considered it bad, they were the ones who CHOSE the books which became the bible. Also again, have you READ the Gospel of Thomas? There's no "history" in it, it is a list of sayings of Jesus. And again, I don't believe "credible" historians consider the bible "true" either. And yet AGAIN the main point was that you believed I had made my twin statement up. I didn't say I believed the gospel of Thomas any more than the other gospels :-)
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@vipersdragband Yes, you did make the statement that Jesus has a twin. it is right their in writing, and it was the first time I had ever heard it. Now I know that you just copied it from some place else. How original!! So you have yet to disprove the Gospels and Jesus rising from the dead. bye bye, I have had enough.
MRGV7373 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 Everything you have said was copied from someplace else, its called the bible. How original :-)
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@vipersdragband The bible has ancient ruins to show it has validity, 100s of witnesses and 2000 years of history to show its validity. What does yours have??Skiptics that only throw stones at history, can see no order in the universe, can't see God in the order of the universe, Life by accident. Do you really think this world and universe came into being be some random events.?Our lives show us that something created, somethng brought this into being.Do we fully understand it? No God Does.
MRGV7373 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 The ruins do not show that Jesus was the divine son of God, only that the places existed. 2000 years of belief does not make them true. Skeptics do not throw stones at history but at Christian dogma. And the possibility of a godlike presence also does not make the bible any truer than any other religion...
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@vipersdragband Ruins show that the places, times and events that are recorded about Jesus took place. You can only come to God in Jesus by faith. You can never prove God by science or history. Sceptics will doubt history which is not proven by science. No history is proven by science. So you have to make a choice. Do you trust that what was writen about Jesus is true or False? That is the question.You either trust in history or you don't. I could be wrong or you could be. I will trust it
MRGV7373 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 Ruins do not show "events." History has nothing to do with the dogma of Christianity. And considering you are commenting upon a video which had Kirk Cameron as your spokesperson nothing you have just said surprises me or inspires me. But thanks for trying :-)
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@vipersdragband I have come to the conclusion that faith is the only way to know God. Faith is believing in thing not seen.. Fairth is the only way to know God. This faith is not blind faith, but faith with a faith in history. I can never inspire you, God has to do that. I got myself in so much trouble that I needed a savior. I would have destroyed myself without Jesus. I could do all things well as a human but I had no love. Love drove me to God. Which I Give thanks to God. peace
MRGV7373 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 Well good luck with that :-)
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@vipersdragband The apocryphal Acts of Thomas, apparently written in Syria in the third century, is the source of the legend that this disciple became a missionary in India. The text also asserts that Thomas was the brother of Jesus. Likwise, this claim appears in one of the gnostic Nag Hammadi documents. So not the twin but brother. Not listed as a brother by John in his Gospel. 300 years after Jesus lived. John, Matt, Mark and Luke 30 -70 years after Jesus lived were written.
MRGV7373 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 And what? Your claim was that "I" had made this up. Obviously you now know I didn't.
The name means twin twin : Thomas is Hebrew for twin. Didymos is Greek for twin
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@vipersdragband Funny the name means twin, and the twin was Thomas twin, the other brother is never talked about. So why do you bring it up, so that Jesus really died and than Thomas took his place.? Thomas did not even trust what the other Apostles said tha Jesus rose from the dead. So Thomas, who did not believe, tooks Jesus place? What fantacy do you live in??
MRGV7373 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 Again you are erroneously assuming that I am the source for these ideas. I have given no indication that I believe this possibility any more than any others. It was merely in answer to one of your previous claims. There are also stories that Simon of Cyrene took Jesus' place on the cross. I don't believe it more than other stories either, but I also did not just make it up. Also, I thought you had had enough?
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 Also you DO realize that the Gospel of Thomas and the Acts of Thomas are not the same book, right?
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@vipersdragband If you saw a car crash and 3 other people saw the crash from 4 different view points and wrote about the crash, would the writing be the same? Each view point would have a different view, what sequence the crash happened, who saw the event. What you would write would be right on the main events but the details would have conflicts, timing issues, who came first, second... If you are wrote the same thing, I would conclude that you made up the story. Same event, diifferent story
MRGV7373 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 But what are you referring to? Are you implying that when the various women came to the empty tomb and "witnessed" it, that there were ALSO 4 different observers (not mentioned in the bible) to that event and that they each wrote a different account?
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@vipersdragband The example of a car accident is to point out one historical event - the crash - could have 4 different stories, all true from the writers perspectve. Just like the 4 gospel writers about Jesus death and resurrection. Different view but the same true story. No conflicts just different story lines. All true but different.
MRGV7373 8 months ago
@MRGV7373 Yes, it COULD have 4 different stories, but that does NOT make them all true. One story from an eyewitness could say 3 cars were involved in an accident because a tree blocked his view of the 4th car which the others saw. The eyewitness who saw only 3 cars is completely telling the "truth" of what he saw, yet that doesn't make his eyewitness account true.
vipersdragband 8 months ago
@pynic29 the Apostles John and Matthew are both eye witness of Jesus Life, death and resurrection. Gospel of John and Mat. Peter in Acts is an eye witness. Paul met many eye witnesses. 1 john tell has t