Well done and presented in TRUTH. There is no pre-trib rapture of Jesus Christ written. But there may something in the planning regarding the "rapture deception" as we are warned over and over about the false christ who comes first on the 6th trump, who arrives before the 7th trump and the return of our TRUE King of Kings and Lord of Lords Jesus Christ.
Actually, your view is not post trib, but a modified post trib, sort of a pre-wrath post trib, which I also believe. Look for my book on the subject in a few months, followed by videos.
"Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."
that early church believd it does not make it right. they were no more spiritual than we are, after all, if they were as wonderful as that most of the NT would not have been written, eg the letters of paul written to correct some heresy or conflict.
But post trib is solidly biblical, because scripture and NOT the church, early or otherwise
Rapture means the snatching up of believers and those people will be taken to Heaven by Jesus, right? Well, if that is correct then then there can be NO POST-TRIB rapture because when Jesus actually comes to the Earth the second time, he will come and defeat Satan and set up his kingdom on the new earth. The bible does not say he returns to Heaven with anyone. We will return with Jesus and live with him in his kingdom.
@cnj4200 Where in I thess 4:16-17 does it say that the raptured believers are carried to heaven? Nowhere. It says we meet him in the air. Why is Jesus in the air? Read it again: Because he's DESCENDING from heaven to earth. He's descending to battle against satan at the battle of armageddon on the day of the Lord. Believers are simply joining the returning army of God. The whole "believers are taken to heaven for 7 years" is a concocted story and is unsupported by Scripture.
@skydiver626 Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
i believe this is the rapture that paul speaks of in 1thes4 and 2thes2 and is an exact parellel of mat24 and luke 21.ofcourse the rapture occurs after the trib.u would have to either be confused or a straight out liar to say any different.but doesnt mark13:27 say the elect is taken FROM earth TO heaven?
@skydiver626 also we know that the sun/moon are darkened just b4 the rapture.we see this in rev6 and then in rev7,we see the raptured/ressurected church in heaven.Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne....the throne is in heaven,and where do we see the raptured saints?...Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God...after the trib,we are rapture and taken to heaven while wrath(trumps/viles)is poured
@prewrathrapture333 ......... Prewrath is basically the same, comfortable, feel-no-problem laodicean doctrine of Pre-trib. ..... just 3.5 years later. ................... You need to take a hard look at the sequence of all the cups, seals and teruahs of the book. ....... It's not chronologic.
@cnj4200 Read II Thess 1. Paul comforted the troubled Thessalonians with the fact that Christ was coming back with fiery vengeance upon the wicked and also to be glorified in his saints. Then in verse 11 he states: pray that you are accounted worthy of THIS calling. He makes absolutely no mention of a pre-tribulation raptured church ascending to heaven with a u-turning Messiah.
@cnj4200 cheers, I'm pre tribber unless proven otherwise but even then i've read that there could be a staged fake rapture (theory of ufos) prior to the real one ! have to be careful when it comes to this - even if there was no pre rapture we still need to be ready now 100% holiness- cheers
@incognita1989 ........ Out of your own confession, whether you know it or not. .........readiness = holiness = watchfullness = faithful walking = refinement. ............. That's an enormous message throughout the entire bible. The pretrib doctrine is designed to avoid all of that... and brings no glory to God.
Read again. We are appointed to Refinement and we this occurs in (thlypsis). We are not appointed to suffer (thumos & orge).. id est, "wrath." 1- Yes, study the actual Hebrew traditions.. not the fairy tale the pharisee-turned messianic believers have handed to yur milk-drinking seminary ear-itching teachers. 2 - Its the feast of Yahweh, not "yehuda" & think about what u just said about who will be there to witness the new moon. 3 - Rosh hShanah = Yom Teruah, the Voices are unison
I agree Sky, What we must realize is that God does not reveal all to 1 person. He uses the entire Body and gifts. Here a little there a little. We interpret scripture as the H/S teaches us. email me and I will send you a PDF of my book. Prophecy Hidden in Plain sight, By (johnmichaelpoirier@yahoo.com) There is another level to the prophecies.The video "Daniels time line" is part of it. Jesus said that the sun would not shine and the moon would not give her light. The day that happens is Tishri 1
There is no pretrib rapture, we are infact just 6 months and some days to the end of the final tribulation, and on MAY 21 2011 THE RAPTURE WILL OCCUR AND JUDGMENTDAY WILL BEGIN.
@makeme708 Yes, the pre-trib rapture is false but no, the rapture will not occur next May. Please research further before setting dates. In order for the rapture to occur, the antichrist must rise and overtake the ENTIRE world during the great tribulation. This has not occured. There's not enough time between now and May for this prophecy to come to pass. Do not be deceived my friend. We have many hardships to endure before the rapture.
@skydiver626 Dude, the seals and trumpets are BEFORE the anti christ shows his face. They are before revelation 13, we will be gone at the seals and trumpets because we are not to suffer gods wrath
@Kr0n1k4Lyfe .......... so... basically, you think that the book is chronologic.. and you missed the messages within. The Antichrist is revealed MULTIPLE times throughout the book....... so there is an easy way right there to sink that ship you jumped on. We are not appointed to "orge" ........ but we are appointed to thlypsis, aka, refinement... aka tribulation. We can go over any verse in any language in any translation. The message i just shared is the same.
@makeme708 ...i know it's nice to think scotty will beam you up out of the richest, most comfortable planet on the earth - so they other billions of poor people will have it even worse while you leave your comfortable lifestyle to go into a reclining chair in heaven to watch others suffer. --However, Camping... like so many many other prosperity teachers have robbed the laodicean church, selling them a false ticket, "fleecing them" and mocking their nature. Time to pray and dig into His Truth
So like Hogwash to me so I did something about it. Since this is the way you believe you may like a book I wrote just search for the gentile witness on google
you think that the pre-trib view is prevalent, but no, the post-trib is more popular. Why? Go to YouTube and type in pre-trib, all the vids you see is people trying to disprove the pre-trib truth!
@receivejesusnow ........ No, it means that post-tribbers are more vigilant. ....... The calvinist view is the minority view ... but the internet is full of cult-like calvin spouters. The loudest voice does not make it the right one or the majority voice. ...... there are no famous post-trib movies, post-trib books. Nope... escapism is the message of the pre-tribbers and it sells like hotcakes. Period.
I have come over many years to know that the pre trib rapture is a false teaching!! I had for many years had been so taken by the pre trib, and believed all the teachers that preached it. Till one day turned off all those teachers and read the word for my self!! that is all i had to do is just read the word and lisen to what it had to say and now I know and am glad that I will live and preach the word through the trib. till the lord takes us out at the end!! Praise God!!!
Even if the 7 year trib teaching were true (which it isnt) the rapture would b @ the end of it (post tri rapture). Paul states that the Rapture happends @ the LAST TRUMPET. Now if u interpret Rev as Futuristic (which it isnt) the 7th trumpet happends @ the end. The trumpets happen DURING the Trib. How can the rapture happen @ the beginning when there r 7 more trumpets 2 come during the Trib? When the Holy Spirit says LAST He means last, if you are a pre trib then LAST does not mean LAST to you.
These are not celestial events. The sun being darkended means the light of the true gospel would fade (that is the falling away), the moon is the church that reflects the light of the sun (SON) and the stars fall from heaven are deceived Christians that have fallen from grace and truth. It has already happened. Babylon is the fallen church. The end comes with a flood of lies.
Makes sense too me. Didn't the early church also believe that they were already in the Tribulation, but not yet in "DAY of the LORD"? They expected the return of Jesus in their lifetime.
To me, the main reason there's going to be a great falling away is because too many Christians worship the doctrine & theology of their church MORE than Jesus Christ. It’s like Jesus is secondary to the letter of the THEIR law.
I have never seen a more prevalent time when Christians argue over the word rather than DOING the word; we are in the beginning of the last days I do believe. Return to your FIRST LOVE – Jesus Christ, before it’s too late!!
Great Video....I believe that this is a very important issue because I believe the The Great Falling away or apostasy is going to happen because millions of Christians are going to expect to just disappear. Its not going to happen....and things are going to get really bad...and the love of most will grow cold. That is why it concerns me that people are so taken by this new pre tribulation rapture idea.
the Lord Jesus will return at the last day, whenever that is and at that time is the resurection of all and some to everlasting life with the Lord Jesus and others to damnation as even Daniel said.
thank you for this biblical view of the trib :) many of the mainstream christians think there will be a pre trib because thats what they were told and didnt question it or look in the scriptures to see if it was true
Peace and safety is declared by THEM-the unbelievers. They will be in total subjection to the antichrist. THEY will not suffer persecution. The physical coming of Christ will be with the saints of heaven. The church is to meet him in the air upon his descent. Christians are saved from God's wrath on the post trib day of the Lord.(the true context of I Thess 5:9) The great trib is not God's wrath. Pre-trib building blocks are flawed. You can't build post with pre - that's why you are confused.
First of all, the hail you mentioned is to occur after the great trib. Secondly, did people continue to marry and were given in marriage during WWII? Even though that was a massive tragedy, people went on with their lives. Thus it will be the same during the coming great trib. Even though many earthly tragedies will be revealed, people will continue to go about their flagrant sin under the false sense of security that antichrist will provide them - so long as the worship him.
You have to have a clear understanding of how Revelation is constructed. First, Rev 12-14 is a third perspective view of endtime events ending with the battle of Armageddon. Notice that the terminology associated with the 7th vial matches Rev 14:8-10. Notice that it occurs well after the great trib depicted in Rev 13. Secondly, you are again, confusing the GT with God's wrath. It is not. It's a time of Satan's wrath.
@coreva If Revelation isn't future, then please tell me when Christ returned the second time where "every eye will see him"? (Rev 1:7) It can't be referring to his first coming because John wrote Revelation many decades later after Christ's acension.
@skydiver626 Notice it continues to say "even those who pierced him". It is speaking about the destruction in Jerusalem in 66-70AD. Those that pierced Him are long dead now so this cannot be referring to His 2nd PHYSICAL coming. It is speaking about His coming in judgement to destroy Israel for rejecting the Messiah, every eye there was going to see Him coming in judgement. It continues to read "and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him", that should be translated LAND not earth.
@coreva -------- not only were there hundreds of Tribes of the Earth missing, ... but there many tribes of Israel missing. And they did NOT look on Christ. No Jewish or gentile reported anything of that massive importance. Unlike the Return of Christ from the Grave and the ascencion, when hundreds witnessed him. Here, in 70ad they looked on a roman seige. You can stop equating Christ to a seige.
Ok. Not one of these verses claims that the church is to be exempt from the GT. I must reiterate once again that you are confusing the time of God's wrath with the GT. You need to watch my vid on wrath. This is your place of confusion. Christ applies the flood of noahs's day to his post trib return - not the GT. Noah was saved on the same day that the wicked were destroyed. So it will be on the DAY OF THE LORD for the church.
@IDH77 So what do you do with 2 Thess chapter 1 were Paul tells the church that rest will occur at the time Jesus Christ comes with flaming fires and He's Angel's to judge the unbelieving world with eternal punishment, Paul again tells the church there is only one body, one bride that rest occurs at the 2nd coming not 7 years before as pre tribers teach.........
@xena1973 Paul mentions both in one sentence as a simple summing up of what is to happen. He doesn’t give any thought to sequence of events because that was not his intent in this passage.
So no contradiction.
Revelation gives the sequence. Chs 1-3 the Church Age. Ch 4-5 the Rapture and the scenes from Heaven. Ch6 the beginning of the judgements on earth. etc
@IDH77 It was John not the church that was taken up he was the one who had visions in Heaven and Earth, John was going up and down it was not the church, even thu the church is not mentioned after Revelation 4 the word saints are mentioned which is connected to the church not unless you believe in two bodys, two brides, for Christ Jesus two elect people there is only one body of saints the born again believer
@IDH77 In Revelation chapter 4 its is again John the Apostle seeing the visions who is writing the book to the church, if you believe in rapture occuring in Revelation chapter 4 then you believe in two church body's and are contradicting yourself and not harmonizing the scriptures
@IDH77 In conclusion I have proven to you that the pre tribers favorite verses found in Matthew 24:37-42, 1 Thess 4, 2 Thess 2, which many believe is the rapture is speaking of the 2nd coming when Jesus Christ comes Matthew 24:29-31 in power and glory, and the elect, saints, brethern, one body, one church, will be here till the end seperated at the 2nd coming one for eternal glory the other for eternal punishment
@IDH77 Secong Coming and rapture happening at the same time not unless you believe in rapture after rapture twice happening once 7 years before and another at the 2nd coming do you ????
@IDH77 As well Paul the apostle would contradict himself as say rest for the church at the 2nd coming in 2 Thess chapter 1 and then say rapture of the church 7 years before as pre tribers teach found in 2 Thess chapter 2, two events must take place the apostasy and the man of sin before Jesus Christ appears.
@xena1973 2Th 2:7-8 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. (8) And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Church is taken away THEN the man of sin is revealed.
@IDH77 2 Thess 2:7-8 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only Hewho now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming
@IDH77 So in your view Jesus Christ comes 7 years before He's epiphanio and parousia 2nd coming, can you explain to me in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, were Jesus Christ says He will come before the tribulation, because when you read the Chapters Jesus Christ comes "after" the tribulation not before that. As well Jesus Christ comes in v 8 to destroy lawlessness and it occurs at the 2nd coming He's parousia, epiphanio not 7 years before that
Please note that Matt 24 is NOT in strict chronological order. He goes back and describes the events BEFORE the GT. In verses 38-42 he describes the events (that is the Rapture) BEFORE the 2nd Coming.
@IDH77 Matthew 24:38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be
@IDH77 taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. You intrepert Matthew 24:38-42 as you say In verses 38-42 he describes the events (that is the Rapture) BEFORE the 2nd Coming. In verse 39 the word coming is translated in the greek parousia 2nd Coming
@IDH77 You say In verses 38-42 he describes the events (that is the Rapture) BEFORE the 2nd Coming, the word parousia "coming" is found in v. 39 which is always referring to the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ just as He said would happen after the tribulation look up the word coming in a Strongs Exhaustive Concordance #3952.
@IDH77 1 Thess 4:16-18 did you forget to include the chapter in context How Jesus Christ does not come alone but with those who sleep with Jesus found in v. 14 as which is connected to 1 Thess 3:13, 1 Thess 2:19 as well the word "coming" is found as well in 1 Thess 4:15 which translated parousia #3952 strongs exhaustive greek concordance
@IDH77 1 Thess chapter 4 the word again is found "coming" in v. 15 The Greek "parousia" (Strongs #G3952) means "coming to a place, presence, arrival". This is a clear reference to Christ's glorious second coming not 7 years before it seems pre tribers quote 1 Thess 4:16-18 by heart but forget v. 15 referring to the 2nd coming
@IDH77 So how can you say rapture in Matthew 24:29-30, 1 Thess 4:16-18, when the word coming is translated parousia 2nd coming which is after the tribulation............and yes the rapture does occur not 7 years before the 2nd coming but at the 2nd coming when Jesus Chris gathers He's elect found in Matthew 24:29-31
@IDH77 In Matthew 24:37-42 the word "coming" is found in v. 37 The Greek "parousia" (Strongs #G3952) means "coming to a place, presence, arrival". This is a clear reference to Christ's glorious second coming (see Matthew 24:39).
V. 39 "coming" The Greek "parousia" (Strongs #G3952) means "coming to a place, presence, arrival".
@IDH77 To use Matthew 24:37-42 and say its is rapture 7 years before the 2nd coming is incorrect, Matthew 24:37-42 speaks of the 2nd coming after the tribulation linked with Matthew 24:29-31 not unless you believe in two 2nd comings one before 7 year tribulaton and one aftrwords ??? when Jesus Christ only spoke of one more 2nd coming!!!!!
@IDH77 So its seems the god you believe in can't do the impossible, He raised the dead, cured the sick and casted out demons as well created the heavens and earth and resurrected !!!!!! nothing is impossible for God Almighty are Lord Jesus Christ........................
@IDH77 No because there no proof that He will come before the tribulation not unless you can pull out a chapter, verse, saying He will come before tribulation, He's appearance occurs after the tribulation
@IDH77 Matthew 24:29-31 29 (“Immediately after the tribulation) of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Jesus Christ coming after the tribulation not before as pre tribers say, were your evidence He will be coming before the tribulation were the chapter and verse ???
@IDH77 But of course there is a physical coming at the 2nd coming, as for the word elect who are they church or another group ??? because in the pre trib view they should be gone and if you say church your saying one group of church will be raptured and another left behind that sounds like your dividing the bride of christ into two groups, as well I will give you verses to show you who the elect are Matthew 24:29-31
@IDH77 So I see you preach two bodies, two brides, for christ one at the rapture and one at the 2nd coming, did not Jesus Christ say one sheep one shepard, Paul speaks of one body only in Galations and again Paul speaking the church in 2 Thess chapter 1 rest will occur when at the 2nd coming not before that and the church is still on earth................so again how do you fit 2 Thess chapter 1 with your pre trib view, the church is on earth not in heaven ???????
@IDH77 The answer to your question is that in the Pre trib view the church is gone 7 years before, but the scriptutres say 2 Thess chapter 1 Paul speaking to the church one body, one people, that "rest" will occur when Jesus Christ is revealed from Heaven in flaming fire, so in your belief systm your splitting up the church one leaving at the rapture and one at the 2nd coming when in fact the church will be here till the 2nd coming not before but after the tribulation
@xena1973 1st all it shows that you don’t understand what you are supposed to be refuting! If you are going to criticise the Pre-Trib Rapture then at least take the time to understand it so you don’t misrepresent it as you are doing.
2nd your objection makes no sense. It is the SAME Church who will return with him at the Second Coming which was Raptured at 1Thess 4:16-18. See Rev 19:14
Some will be saved DURING the GT. See Rev 7:14-17. Perhaps you are getting confused with that?
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
So these is the verse u say is the rapture I need more evidence then that were does it say it will happen before the tribulation ?? I can prove it will happen at the 2nd coming in v. 15 the word "coming" parousia in the greek referring to the 2nd coming occuring after the tribulation
@IDH77 Well lets see deceitful would be you lets scroll down and see how you quoted 1 Thess 4:16-18 and forgot about v. 15 the word "coming" parousia if you like read the whole chapter but it seems you forge the word "coming" parousia found in v. 15 2nd coming 1 Thess 4 is a 2nd coming chapter and the rapture will occur at the 2nd coming not before that can you point out in the chapter were Jesus Christ says He will come before the tribulation........
@IDH77 Rev 7:14-17 I read it but these has nothing to do with what we are speaking about which is the rapture of the church, so please don't change the subject.....
@IDH77 Rev 19:14 is the church coming with Jesus Christ in Heaven
1 Thess 2:19 19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming? 20 For you are our glory and joy.
1 Thess 3:13 13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.
@IDH77 1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
1 Thess 2:19 "coming" parousia, 1 Thess 3:13 "coming" parousia, 1 Thess 4:15 "coming" parousia 2nd advent 2nd coming connected to Matthew 24:29-31, coming for the church and coming with He's own from Heaven as well 2 Thess 1
@IDH77 Paul speaking to the church not in Heaven but on earth that "rest" from persecution, tribulation, will occur when Jesus Christ flaming fire taking vengeance with everlasting punishment, Paul is writing to the church on earth, there is only one body, one elect, saints who are born again jew and gentile making one new man creation in Jesus Christ one sheep if you like I can give you scripture Jesus Christ preached one sheep, Paul as well......the church will be on earth till the 2nd coming
@IDH77 I believe in one body of elect, saints, that will be gathered at the 2nd coming not before that...............again I need a chapter or verse were Jesus Christ says that He will appear before the GT
@xena1973 1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
Rapture happens THEN when men are saying "Peace and safety!"! They think they have achieved lasting peace!
2nd coming happens at the height of the Battle of Armageddon.
@IDH77 It seems you can pull out verse's but forget to study them you say:
Rapture -7 year tribulation-2nd coming are two seperate events, so can you explain to me how you fit 2 Thess chapter 1 the church is still on earth till the 2nd coming, with a pre trib rapture because in your belief system your dividing the church in two one at the rapture as you believe and Paul saying rest will occur at the 2nd coming not before.
I told you that I would not stand for being lied about. I do not split the church in 2 and I told you that if you continue lying about my beliefs that I would end this conversation.
@IDH77 The elect lets see is it Israel or the church, 2 Tim 2:10, Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:1, the elect is the church the three books I have noted were written to the church not Israel as well Matthew 24:29-31 fits with what Paul is speaking about in 2 Thess chapter 1, no contradiction there.
@IDH77 Romans 8: 1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, Yes there is no condemnation for the church when the wrath of God is revealed at the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ when He appears again..........
@IDH77 So in your view your putting Jesus Christ 2nd advent parousia 1 Thess 4:16-18 7 years before the 2nd coming parousia and you believe Jesus Christ is coming 2 more times can you find were Jesus Christ said would come before the tribulation instead of going over the same verse over and over 1 Thess 4:16 is that all you can come up with................
@IDH77 Matthew 24:37-42, 1 Thess 4:15-18, 2 Thess 2:1-3 the word coming is found meaning parousia and the verses are written to the church no other group all three verses are referring to the 2nd coming not a rapture to occur 7 years before that
@IDH77 Yes the 2nd coming is after the GT but the rapture I need a chapter, verse to show me that Jesus Christ said that He would come before the tribulation the key is "before" give me chapter and verse...........
@IDH77 Thru out the Gospels Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Jesus Christ says He will appear when aftr the tribulation not before then, could you find me the chapter, verse, that says Jesus Christ will appear before tribulation in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21.
@IDH77 Pre tribers say that the rapture of the church occurs in Revelation Chapter 4 but thru out the book of Revelation it is John the apostle who is receiving vision of heaven and earth going back and forth not the church. The words I saw, I heard, it was John the apostle and it was John the apostle who was taken up to see a vision in Chapter 4 in the book of Revelation
@IDH77 If you believe in a rapture occuring in Revelation chapter 4 then there is a contradiction for Paul the apostle speaks of rest occuring at the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ found in 2 Thess Chapter 1, remember there is only one bride, one sheep, your either born again or not, jew and gentile are one body Paul says many times thru out the N.T.
@IDH77 Paul is speaking to the church telling them that they will have persecution, tribulation from the world till Jesus Christ comes in flaming fire which is a description of the 2nd coming not 7 years before Jesus Christ will come with He's Angels and judge the world with everlasting destruction from He's presence if you like to read the whole chapter its plain and simple to understand
@xena1973 Paul actually writes to CORRECT them because they were deceived into thinking that the persecution they were facing was the GT. Of course the Church will go through persecution in this age.
You are thinking like a pseudo-Roman Catholic with an Amillennial outlook.
Sure that Church will go through the GT but that is the Great Whore of Rev 17.
@IDH77 The wrath of God is not the great tribulation but the occurs at the 2nd coming when Jesus Christ comes to judge the world that is the wrath of God, not the great tribulation.
@xena1973 Actually the coming of Christ signals the END of the Tribulation not the beginning of it since that is when he will set up his Millenial Kingdom.
@IDH77 - What wrath will we not be here to witness, the "thymos" wrath of the "orge" wrath of God? There is a huge difference. Check the Greek text to find out.
@IDH77 1. "the Church" is Israel. Ekklesia (Greek) and Qahal/Eda (Hebrew) both mean: assembly, community, congregation. So, the "mixed multitude" called Israel was formed in Exodus 12, not in Acts 2.
2. "the Church" is a false teaching like "Heaven" is. We aren't going to "Heaven" to be with YHVH. If you are not in 1 of the 12 tribes, you won't get into the New Jerusalem (Rev. 20). I don't see a gate for "the Church".
So why does the Rapture happen when men are saying peace and Safety (1Thess 5:3) and the actual second coming happen at a time of World war? (Zech 14 & Rev 19)
Is it possible for a person to be amillennial and futurist? That is, seeing the millennium as an extended period of time, but then after the millennium, the rise of the Antichrist and the Tribulation, rather literally?
The bible is overtly clear that the millennial reign occurs after the battle of Armageddon. (Rev 20) Studying the timeline of Revelation of 13/14 it is also clear that the great trib and the antichrist's rampage occurs prior to the battle of Armageddon. So no. Secondly, Satan is bound throughout the millennial reign. There's no way that this has occurred yet. History proves that. Also, remember that Christ came physically the first time. He will the 2nd time also.
I'm not suggesting that amillennialism is correct or not.
I'm just wondering whether it is possible for someone who is amillennial to believe that a literal interpretation of the Tribulation will occur after the allegorical millennium, which, presumably, would be when Satan's chains are dissolved, allowing him to roam free and usher the Tribulation, the apostasy, and persecution.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. One God, "Man"ifesting Himself as He see fit, for nothing is impossible for Him. Prepare your lamps, trim the wicks, be full of "oil" for the darkness is coming. Bless Yahshua who will lead us through it all as we endure "until the end". No one gets a "get out of tribulation free" card, all must endure and overcome him through the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony
I have someone sending me messages at the moment who thinks Paul was the antichrist and the only book in the new testament he will accept as Scripture is Matthew.
People will believe what they want to believe and the pre-trib rapture gets them out of having to suffer and possibly die a horrible death.
But Christ will either keep us through it, or comfort us if we have to suffer for Him.
@DIETOSELFREPENT ....... yeah, you probably have a bhi-cultist on your hands. They hate the greek words that refute their doctrine so they place all their hope in the Shem-Tov. The hebrew-Mattiyahu still refutes them ... and the Tanakh is more than enough to show that we are grafted into the olive branches of Israel. All Glory to Him !!!!!!!! shalom
If you read I Thess 4:16-5:2, you will clearly see that Paul contextually links the rapture to the the day of the Lord. While the day of the Lord is a day of wrath against those who denied the gospel, it is also a day of salvation for the church who will be caught up on that day.
Well done and presented in TRUTH. There is no pre-trib rapture of Jesus Christ written. But there may something in the planning regarding the "rapture deception" as we are warned over and over about the false christ who comes first on the 6th trump, who arrives before the 7th trump and the return of our TRUE King of Kings and Lord of Lords Jesus Christ.
RememberPaulRevere 1 month ago
Actually, your view is not post trib, but a modified post trib, sort of a pre-wrath post trib, which I also believe. Look for my book on the subject in a few months, followed by videos.
okmedia 4 months ago in playlist More videos from skydiver626
great teaching thanks!
MsCread 6 months ago
Luke 21:36
"Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."
Kr0n1k4Lyfe 6 months ago
that early church believd it does not make it right. they were no more spiritual than we are, after all, if they were as wonderful as that most of the NT would not have been written, eg the letters of paul written to correct some heresy or conflict.
But post trib is solidly biblical, because scripture and NOT the church, early or otherwise
Strefanasha 7 months ago
Rapture means the snatching up of believers and those people will be taken to Heaven by Jesus, right? Well, if that is correct then then there can be NO POST-TRIB rapture because when Jesus actually comes to the Earth the second time, he will come and defeat Satan and set up his kingdom on the new earth. The bible does not say he returns to Heaven with anyone. We will return with Jesus and live with him in his kingdom.
cnj4200 11 months ago
@cnj4200 I meant return with Jesus from Heaven to the Earth where he will set up his kingdom.
cnj4200 11 months ago
@cnj4200 Where in I thess 4:16-17 does it say that the raptured believers are carried to heaven? Nowhere. It says we meet him in the air. Why is Jesus in the air? Read it again: Because he's DESCENDING from heaven to earth. He's descending to battle against satan at the battle of armageddon on the day of the Lord. Believers are simply joining the returning army of God. The whole "believers are taken to heaven for 7 years" is a concocted story and is unsupported by Scripture.
skydiver626 11 months ago 2
@skydiver626 Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
i believe this is the rapture that paul speaks of in 1thes4 and 2thes2 and is an exact parellel of mat24 and luke 21.ofcourse the rapture occurs after the trib.u would have to either be confused or a straight out liar to say any different.but doesnt mark13:27 say the elect is taken FROM earth TO heaven?
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@skydiver626 also we know that the sun/moon are darkened just b4 the rapture.we see this in rev6 and then in rev7,we see the raptured/ressurected church in heaven.Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne....the throne is in heaven,and where do we see the raptured saints?...Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God...after the trib,we are rapture and taken to heaven while wrath(trumps/viles)is poured
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@prewrathrapture333 ......... Prewrath is basically the same, comfortable, feel-no-problem laodicean doctrine of Pre-trib. ..... just 3.5 years later. ................... You need to take a hard look at the sequence of all the cups, seals and teruahs of the book. ....... It's not chronologic.
KeyboardPacifist 6 months ago
@cnj4200 Read II Thess 1. Paul comforted the troubled Thessalonians with the fact that Christ was coming back with fiery vengeance upon the wicked and also to be glorified in his saints. Then in verse 11 he states: pray that you are accounted worthy of THIS calling. He makes absolutely no mention of a pre-tribulation raptured church ascending to heaven with a u-turning Messiah.
skydiver626 11 months ago
I disagree wtih you 1st we are not appointed to wrath.,
1- Study ancient Jewish wedding where the groom takes the bride away for 7 days then comes to publicly declare their marriage- you need to study this.
2- Feasts of the Jews - Jesus fulfilled some of them the next one is Feast of Trumpets Rosh Hashana where 2 witness view the new moon
3- The Trump of God refer to Trump of God not trump of the angles of Revelation. God also sounded his trump once previously in the old Testament
incognita1989 11 months ago
@incognita1989 Completely agreed!
cnj4200 11 months ago
@cnj4200 cheers, I'm pre tribber unless proven otherwise but even then i've read that there could be a staged fake rapture (theory of ufos) prior to the real one ! have to be careful when it comes to this - even if there was no pre rapture we still need to be ready now 100% holiness- cheers
incognita1989 11 months ago
@incognita1989 ........ Out of your own confession, whether you know it or not. .........readiness = holiness = watchfullness = faithful walking = refinement. ............. That's an enormous message throughout the entire bible. The pretrib doctrine is designed to avoid all of that... and brings no glory to God.
KeyboardPacifist 6 months ago
Read again. We are appointed to Refinement and we this occurs in (thlypsis). We are not appointed to suffer (thumos & orge).. id est, "wrath." 1- Yes, study the actual Hebrew traditions.. not the fairy tale the pharisee-turned messianic believers have handed to yur milk-drinking seminary ear-itching teachers. 2 - Its the feast of Yahweh, not "yehuda" & think about what u just said about who will be there to witness the new moon. 3 - Rosh hShanah = Yom Teruah, the Voices are unison
KeyboardPacifist 6 months ago
I agree Sky, What we must realize is that God does not reveal all to 1 person. He uses the entire Body and gifts. Here a little there a little. We interpret scripture as the H/S teaches us. email me and I will send you a PDF of my book. Prophecy Hidden in Plain sight, By (johnmichaelpoirier@yahoo.com) There is another level to the prophecies.The video "Daniels time line" is part of it. Jesus said that the sun would not shine and the moon would not give her light. The day that happens is Tishri 1
goldmakers 1 year ago
Very good. Thanks
jamesbabyar 1 year ago
There is no pretrib rapture, we are infact just 6 months and some days to the end of the final tribulation, and on MAY 21 2011 THE RAPTURE WILL OCCUR AND JUDGMENTDAY WILL BEGIN.
makeme708 1 year ago
@makeme708 Yes, the pre-trib rapture is false but no, the rapture will not occur next May. Please research further before setting dates. In order for the rapture to occur, the antichrist must rise and overtake the ENTIRE world during the great tribulation. This has not occured. There's not enough time between now and May for this prophecy to come to pass. Do not be deceived my friend. We have many hardships to endure before the rapture.
skydiver626 1 year ago 6
@skydiver626 Dude, the seals and trumpets are BEFORE the anti christ shows his face. They are before revelation 13, we will be gone at the seals and trumpets because we are not to suffer gods wrath
Kr0n1k4Lyfe 1 year ago
@Kr0n1k4Lyfe .......... so... basically, you think that the book is chronologic.. and you missed the messages within. The Antichrist is revealed MULTIPLE times throughout the book....... so there is an easy way right there to sink that ship you jumped on. We are not appointed to "orge" ........ but we are appointed to thlypsis, aka, refinement... aka tribulation. We can go over any verse in any language in any translation. The message i just shared is the same.
KeyboardPacifist 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@makeme708 "But of that day and hour no one knows, no, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only." Matthew 24:36
Mryousonastyful 11 months ago
@makeme708 :0)
Gr8eskape 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@makeme708 :o)
Gr8eskape 7 months ago
@makeme708 ...i know it's nice to think scotty will beam you up out of the richest, most comfortable planet on the earth - so they other billions of poor people will have it even worse while you leave your comfortable lifestyle to go into a reclining chair in heaven to watch others suffer. --However, Camping... like so many many other prosperity teachers have robbed the laodicean church, selling them a false ticket, "fleecing them" and mocking their nature. Time to pray and dig into His Truth
KeyboardPacifist 6 months ago
So like Hogwash to me so I did something about it. Since this is the way you believe you may like a book I wrote just search for the gentile witness on google
gentile59 1 year ago
The Day of the Lord can mean the day where all people suffer the Seven Judgements/Vials or Bowls/Thunders/Seals
receivejesusnow 1 year ago
you think that the pre-trib view is prevalent, but no, the post-trib is more popular. Why? Go to YouTube and type in pre-trib, all the vids you see is people trying to disprove the pre-trib truth!
receivejesusnow 1 year ago
@receivejesusnow ........ No, it means that post-tribbers are more vigilant. ....... The calvinist view is the minority view ... but the internet is full of cult-like calvin spouters. The loudest voice does not make it the right one or the majority voice. ...... there are no famous post-trib movies, post-trib books. Nope... escapism is the message of the pre-tribbers and it sells like hotcakes. Period.
KeyboardPacifist 6 months ago
I love this truth!
CrackerJayherber 1 year ago
I have come over many years to know that the pre trib rapture is a false teaching!! I had for many years had been so taken by the pre trib, and believed all the teachers that preached it. Till one day turned off all those teachers and read the word for my self!! that is all i had to do is just read the word and lisen to what it had to say and now I know and am glad that I will live and preach the word through the trib. till the lord takes us out at the end!! Praise God!!!
egatz4u 1 year ago
Pretribulationalism is due largely to the widespread use of the Scofield Bible, For
1800 years after the death of Christ not one of the early church fathers or writers ever taught that the Lord would come before the tribulation!
Prophets4Christ 1 year ago
SkyDiver626...thanks for showing what the Word says and using basic reasoning and deduction to draw conclusions...and leaving your opinion out of it.
Great work my friend.
kevinseanob 1 year ago
Even if the 7 year trib teaching were true (which it isnt) the rapture would b @ the end of it (post tri rapture). Paul states that the Rapture happends @ the LAST TRUMPET. Now if u interpret Rev as Futuristic (which it isnt) the 7th trumpet happends @ the end. The trumpets happen DURING the Trib. How can the rapture happen @ the beginning when there r 7 more trumpets 2 come during the Trib? When the Holy Spirit says LAST He means last, if you are a pre trib then LAST does not mean LAST to you.
coreva 1 year ago
You are all wrong. There is NO TRIBULATION of 7 YEARS. Thats an incorrect teaching. Show me where the bible teaches a 7 year tribulation?
coreva 1 year ago
These are not celestial events. The sun being darkended means the light of the true gospel would fade (that is the falling away), the moon is the church that reflects the light of the sun (SON) and the stars fall from heaven are deceived Christians that have fallen from grace and truth. It has already happened. Babylon is the fallen church. The end comes with a flood of lies.
Formertelecomguy 1 year ago
Makes sense too me. Didn't the early church also believe that they were already in the Tribulation, but not yet in "DAY of the LORD"? They expected the return of Jesus in their lifetime.
fwfassett 1 year ago
To me, the main reason there's going to be a great falling away is because too many Christians worship the doctrine & theology of their church MORE than Jesus Christ. It’s like Jesus is secondary to the letter of the THEIR law.
I have never seen a more prevalent time when Christians argue over the word rather than DOING the word; we are in the beginning of the last days I do believe. Return to your FIRST LOVE – Jesus Christ, before it’s too late!!
norrisonian 1 year ago
@norrisonian Your right
xena1973 1 year ago
Amen, amen, amen, amen, amen, amen, amen. In the world ye shall have tribulation.
redlisab 1 year ago
yea
lkevins1 1 year ago
Great Video....I believe that this is a very important issue because I believe the The Great Falling away or apostasy is going to happen because millions of Christians are going to expect to just disappear. Its not going to happen....and things are going to get really bad...and the love of most will grow cold. That is why it concerns me that people are so taken by this new pre tribulation rapture idea.
TheFlash1944 1 year ago
excellent video, keep up the good work!
lkevins1 1 year ago
good work!
lkevins1 1 year ago
maybe you can do a break down of rev 20 and he 1000 year reign the part where the devil is loosed is confusing
530HELP 1 year ago
the Lord Jesus will return at the last day, whenever that is and at that time is the resurection of all and some to everlasting life with the Lord Jesus and others to damnation as even Daniel said.
buzzobug 1 year ago
@skydiver626
thank you for this biblical view of the trib :) many of the mainstream christians think there will be a pre trib because thats what they were told and didnt question it or look in the scriptures to see if it was true
i use to believe the view of pre trib
yourlovebrokethrough 1 year ago
Why is it that the Rapture happens FOR the Church when men are saying peace and safety BFORE their destruction? (1 Thess 5:3)
And why is it that the physical Second Coming WITH the Church will happen at the height of the battle of Armageddon? (Zech 14 & Rev 19)
How is it that Christians are saved from the wrath to come? (1Thess 1:10 & 5:9) Does that sound as though we are to go through the Tribulation?
Perhaps a bit more study is needed on your part!
IDH77 1 year ago
Peace and safety is declared by THEM-the unbelievers. They will be in total subjection to the antichrist. THEY will not suffer persecution. The physical coming of Christ will be with the saints of heaven. The church is to meet him in the air upon his descent. Christians are saved from God's wrath on the post trib day of the Lord.(the true context of I Thess 5:9) The great trib is not God's wrath. Pre-trib building blocks are flawed. You can't build post with pre - that's why you are confused.
skydiver626 1 year ago
@skydiver626 Right so when hail stones weighing seventy five pounds fall it is not going to bother you?
When a third of the water is gone, when wars and a third of all mankind is wiped out by nuclear warfare NONE OF THIS IS GOING TO BOTHER YOU?
Yeah right!
IDH77 1 year ago
First of all, the hail you mentioned is to occur after the great trib. Secondly, did people continue to marry and were given in marriage during WWII? Even though that was a massive tragedy, people went on with their lives. Thus it will be the same during the coming great trib. Even though many earthly tragedies will be revealed, people will continue to go about their flagrant sin under the false sense of security that antichrist will provide them - so long as the worship him.
skydiver626 1 year ago
@skydiver626 Where on earth do you get the idea that those events are not part of the GT?
An unbiased reading shows that it is PART of the GT!
WWII is not to be compared with the time of Gods Wrath upon the earth!
You my friend are clutching at straws to back up your man-made traditions!
IDH77 1 year ago
You have to have a clear understanding of how Revelation is constructed. First, Rev 12-14 is a third perspective view of endtime events ending with the battle of Armageddon. Notice that the terminology associated with the 7th vial matches Rev 14:8-10. Notice that it occurs well after the great trib depicted in Rev 13. Secondly, you are again, confusing the GT with God's wrath. It is not. It's a time of Satan's wrath.
skydiver626 1 year ago
@skydiver626 Your views on Revelation are way off. Futurism is not the correct interpretation of Revelation.
coreva 1 year ago
@coreva If Revelation isn't future, then please tell me when Christ returned the second time where "every eye will see him"? (Rev 1:7) It can't be referring to his first coming because John wrote Revelation many decades later after Christ's acension.
skydiver626 1 year ago
@skydiver626 Notice it continues to say "even those who pierced him". It is speaking about the destruction in Jerusalem in 66-70AD. Those that pierced Him are long dead now so this cannot be referring to His 2nd PHYSICAL coming. It is speaking about His coming in judgement to destroy Israel for rejecting the Messiah, every eye there was going to see Him coming in judgement. It continues to read "and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him", that should be translated LAND not earth.
coreva 1 year ago
@coreva .... did ALL the tribes of the land wail on HIM ?......... oh wait... 10 went missing. Oops on that full-preterist theory.
KeyboardPacifist 6 months ago
@KeyboardPacifist All the tribes did wail when the Roman army came. The Roman army then destroyed the unrepentant. Your refutation has failed.
coreva 6 months ago
@coreva -------- not only were there hundreds of Tribes of the Earth missing, ... but there many tribes of Israel missing. And they did NOT look on Christ. No Jewish or gentile reported anything of that massive importance. Unlike the Return of Christ from the Grave and the ascencion, when hundreds witnessed him. Here, in 70ad they looked on a roman seige. You can stop equating Christ to a seige.
KeyboardPacifist 6 months ago
@skydiver626 It is when the Lord comes back to defeat the Antichrist!
receivejesusnow 1 year ago
I would be more than happy to consider any scripture you might have that literally states that the church is to experience a pre-tribulation rapture.
skydiver626 1 year ago
@skydiver626 First the Church is not Israel. There is no wrath on the Church. Eph 2:15 Rom 8:1. 1Thess 5:9
The Rapture is for those in Christ not unbelievers. John representing the Church is caught up in Rev 4:1 and the GT starts in chap 6.
Noah is used as a figure of the Church and he is saved BEFORE one drop fell. Same for Lot.
It is only the persecution that starts in ch 13.
Post-Tribulation is a-priori assumptions not exegesis.
IDH77 1 year ago
Ok. Not one of these verses claims that the church is to be exempt from the GT. I must reiterate once again that you are confusing the time of God's wrath with the GT. You need to watch my vid on wrath. This is your place of confusion. Christ applies the flood of noahs's day to his post trib return - not the GT. Noah was saved on the same day that the wicked were destroyed. So it will be on the DAY OF THE LORD for the church.
skydiver626 1 year ago
@skydiver626 ..... lol. Imma let you run with this guy. I'm tired of the self-refuting pretrib babblers. lol. Shalom and give it your best, brother!
KeyboardPacifist 6 months ago
@IDH77 So what do you do with 2 Thess chapter 1 were Paul tells the church that rest will occur at the time Jesus Christ comes with flaming fires and He's Angel's to judge the unbelieving world with eternal punishment, Paul again tells the church there is only one body, one bride that rest occurs at the 2nd coming not 7 years before as pre tribers teach.........
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 Paul mentions both in one sentence as a simple summing up of what is to happen. He doesn’t give any thought to sequence of events because that was not his intent in this passage.
So no contradiction.
Revelation gives the sequence. Chs 1-3 the Church Age. Ch 4-5 the Rapture and the scenes from Heaven. Ch6 the beginning of the judgements on earth. etc
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 In chapter 4 The Book Of Revelation it was John the apostle who was taken up not the church.
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 As I wrote before John REPRESENTS the Church.
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 It was John not the church that was taken up he was the one who had visions in Heaven and Earth, John was going up and down it was not the church, even thu the church is not mentioned after Revelation 4 the word saints are mentioned which is connected to the church not unless you believe in two bodys, two brides, for Christ Jesus two elect people there is only one body of saints the born again believer
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 I see!! Do you actually understand what the word REPRESENTS means?
Perhaps you need a dictionary?
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 In Revelation chapter 4 its is again John the Apostle seeing the visions who is writing the book to the church, if you believe in rapture occuring in Revelation chapter 4 then you believe in two church body's and are contradicting yourself and not harmonizing the scriptures
xena1973 1 year ago
@IDH77 In conclusion I have proven to you that the pre tribers favorite verses found in Matthew 24:37-42, 1 Thess 4, 2 Thess 2, which many believe is the rapture is speaking of the 2nd coming when Jesus Christ comes Matthew 24:29-31 in power and glory, and the elect, saints, brethern, one body, one church, will be here till the end seperated at the 2nd coming one for eternal glory the other for eternal punishment
xena1973 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@IDH77 One final question ?? In 2 thess 2:1-3 is the gathering the rapture or not I just want a simple yes or no ???
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 It is actually both the Second Coming and the Rapture. Paul merely makes mention of both in one sentence.
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 Secong Coming and rapture happening at the same time not unless you believe in rapture after rapture twice happening once 7 years before and another at the 2nd coming do you ????
xena1973 1 year ago
@IDH77 As well Paul the apostle would contradict himself as say rest for the church at the 2nd coming in 2 Thess chapter 1 and then say rapture of the church 7 years before as pre tribers teach found in 2 Thess chapter 2, two events must take place the apostasy and the man of sin before Jesus Christ appears.
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 2Th 2:7-8 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. (8) And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Church is taken away THEN the man of sin is revealed.
Again no contradiction!
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 2 Thess 2:7-8 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only Hewho now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming
xena1973 1 year ago
@IDH77 The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Church is taken away THEN the man of sin is revealed.
Again no contradiction!
The word coming found in v. 8 means parousia referring to the 2nd coming, brightness means epiphanio again referring to the 2nd coming
xena1973 1 year ago
@IDH77 So in your view Jesus Christ comes 7 years before He's epiphanio and parousia 2nd coming, can you explain to me in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, were Jesus Christ says He will come before the tribulation, because when you read the Chapters Jesus Christ comes "after" the tribulation not before that. As well Jesus Christ comes in v 8 to destroy lawlessness and it occurs at the 2nd coming He's parousia, epiphanio not 7 years before that
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 The 2nd Coming will be in two parts. One FOR the Church and another WITH the Church. Compare 2Thess 4:16-18 & Rev 19:11-16.
Matt 24:29-30 the 2nd coming is AFTER the GT.
Please note that Matt 24 is NOT in strict chronological order. He goes back and describes the events BEFORE the GT. In verses 38-42 he describes the events (that is the Rapture) BEFORE the 2nd Coming.
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 Matthew 24:38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be
xena1973 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@IDH77 taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. You intrepert Matthew 24:38-42 as you say In verses 38-42 he describes the events (that is the Rapture) BEFORE the 2nd Coming. In verse 39 the word coming is translated in the greek parousia 2nd Coming
xena1973 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@IDH77 You say In verses 38-42 he describes the events (that is the Rapture) BEFORE the 2nd Coming, the word parousia "coming" is found in v. 39 which is always referring to the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ just as He said would happen after the tribulation look up the word coming in a Strongs Exhaustive Concordance #3952.
xena1973 1 year ago
Comment removed
xena1973 1 year ago
@IDH77 1 Thess 4:16-18 did you forget to include the chapter in context How Jesus Christ does not come alone but with those who sleep with Jesus found in v. 14 as which is connected to 1 Thess 3:13, 1 Thess 2:19 as well the word "coming" is found as well in 1 Thess 4:15 which translated parousia #3952 strongs exhaustive greek concordance
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 Actually the context is BOTH living and dead caught up not simply returning.
Souls of Christians passed on are reunited with physical bodies and living Christians get new ones.
NO mention of judgment on unbelievers in this passage only those in Christ will be taken up. The rest will be left behind.
IDH77 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@IDH77 1 Thess chapter 4 the word again is found "coming" in v. 15 The Greek "parousia" (Strongs #G3952) means "coming to a place, presence, arrival". This is a clear reference to Christ's glorious second coming not 7 years before it seems pre tribers quote 1 Thess 4:16-18 by heart but forget v. 15 referring to the 2nd coming
xena1973 1 year ago
@IDH77 So how can you say rapture in Matthew 24:29-30, 1 Thess 4:16-18, when the word coming is translated parousia 2nd coming which is after the tribulation............and yes the rapture does occur not 7 years before the 2nd coming but at the 2nd coming when Jesus Chris gathers He's elect found in Matthew 24:29-31
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 So according to you the Saints go up and then immediately come down again yes?
So what is the point in that?
Matthew 24:37-42 is a recapitulation of events they do not FOLLOW the parousia but PRECEDE it.
You have to look at more than Matt 24 to get the events fixed. Revelation does that perfectly.
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 In Matthew 24:37-42 the word "coming" is found in v. 37 The Greek "parousia" (Strongs #G3952) means "coming to a place, presence, arrival". This is a clear reference to Christ's glorious second coming (see Matthew 24:39).
V. 39 "coming" The Greek "parousia" (Strongs #G3952) means "coming to a place, presence, arrival".
xena1973 1 year ago
@IDH77 To use Matthew 24:37-42 and say its is rapture 7 years before the 2nd coming is incorrect, Matthew 24:37-42 speaks of the 2nd coming after the tribulation linked with Matthew 24:29-31 not unless you believe in two 2nd comings one before 7 year tribulaton and one aftrwords ??? when Jesus Christ only spoke of one more 2nd coming!!!!!
xena1973 1 year ago
@IDH77 So its seems the god you believe in can't do the impossible, He raised the dead, cured the sick and casted out demons as well created the heavens and earth and resurrected !!!!!! nothing is impossible for God Almighty are Lord Jesus Christ........................
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 So by the same argument he can Rapture the Christians before the GT.
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 No because there no proof that He will come before the tribulation not unless you can pull out a chapter, verse, saying He will come before tribulation, He's appearance occurs after the tribulation
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 Chapter and verse? By the same argument there is no proof that he will come AFTER the GT!
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 Matthew 24:29-31 29 (“Immediately after the tribulation) of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
xena1973 1 year ago
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Jesus Christ coming after the tribulation not before as pre tribers say, were your evidence He will be coming before the tribulation were the chapter and verse ???
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 I KEEP SAYING THAT THE PHYSICAL SECOND COMING IS AFTER THE GT!
Why won’t you listen?
Actually that is NOT the Rapture as that involves Angels not the power of the Lord alone as in 1Thess 4.
That is the surviving elect saved on earth during the Gt.
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 But of course there is a physical coming at the 2nd coming, as for the word elect who are they church or another group ??? because in the pre trib view they should be gone and if you say church your saying one group of church will be raptured and another left behind that sounds like your dividing the bride of christ into two groups, as well I will give you verses to show you who the elect are Matthew 24:29-31
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 Sorry can't you read?
The elect saved in the Church age will be raptured but those saved DURING the GT will either be martyred (Rev 7) or will be gathered on the last day.
You see you are still determined to misrepresent what I say!
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 So I see you preach two bodies, two brides, for christ one at the rapture and one at the 2nd coming, did not Jesus Christ say one sheep one shepard, Paul speaks of one body only in Galations and again Paul speaking the church in 2 Thess chapter 1 rest will occur when at the 2nd coming not before that and the church is still on earth................so again how do you fit 2 Thess chapter 1 with your pre trib view, the church is on earth not in heaven ???????
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 I am spending more and more time simply repeating what I have to say!
Are you actually reading my posts or are you so entrenched you cannot see anothers point of view even if you disagree with it?
People saved and martyred or gathered alive after the GT will all be part of the same HEAVENLY body!
If you still insist on accusing me of something I do not believe I will not come back to this discussion.
IDH77 1 year ago
Comment removed
xena1973 1 year ago
@IDH77 I'm sorry but I don't actually understand your reasoning. Why must a Pre-tribulation Rapture entail the belief in two bodies of believers?
I certainly don't believe that and neither does anyone else I know or read believe that.
xena1973 1 year ago
@IDH77 The answer to your question is that in the Pre trib view the church is gone 7 years before, but the scriptutres say 2 Thess chapter 1 Paul speaking to the church one body, one people, that "rest" will occur when Jesus Christ is revealed from Heaven in flaming fire, so in your belief systm your splitting up the church one leaving at the rapture and one at the 2nd coming when in fact the church will be here till the 2nd coming not before but after the tribulation
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 1st all it shows that you don’t understand what you are supposed to be refuting! If you are going to criticise the Pre-Trib Rapture then at least take the time to understand it so you don’t misrepresent it as you are doing.
2nd your objection makes no sense. It is the SAME Church who will return with him at the Second Coming which was Raptured at 1Thess 4:16-18. See Rev 19:14
Some will be saved DURING the GT. See Rev 7:14-17. Perhaps you are getting confused with that?
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 1 Thessalonians 4:16
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
So these is the verse u say is the rapture I need more evidence then that were does it say it will happen before the tribulation ?? I can prove it will happen at the 2nd coming in v. 15 the word "coming" parousia in the greek referring to the 2nd coming occuring after the tribulation
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 You stopped one verse SHORT! Deceitful!
1 Thess 4:17 THEN WE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air…
This is the Rapture! How much proof do you need? It will happen at the same time as the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
But non-believers will not resurrected until AFTER the Millennium. Rev 20:5
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 Well lets see deceitful would be you lets scroll down and see how you quoted 1 Thess 4:16-18 and forgot about v. 15 the word "coming" parousia if you like read the whole chapter but it seems you forge the word "coming" parousia found in v. 15 2nd coming 1 Thess 4 is a 2nd coming chapter and the rapture will occur at the 2nd coming not before that can you point out in the chapter were Jesus Christ says He will come before the tribulation........
xena1973 1 year ago
@IDH77 Rev 7:14-17 I read it but these has nothing to do with what we are speaking about which is the rapture of the church, so please don't change the subject.....
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 I I am not changing the subject as you are so determined to misrepresent me.
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 Rev 19:14 is the church coming with Jesus Christ in Heaven
1 Thess 2:19 19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming? 20 For you are our glory and joy.
1 Thess 3:13 13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.
xena1973 1 year ago
@IDH77 1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
1 Thess 2:19 "coming" parousia, 1 Thess 3:13 "coming" parousia, 1 Thess 4:15 "coming" parousia 2nd advent 2nd coming connected to Matthew 24:29-31, coming for the church and coming with He's own from Heaven as well 2 Thess 1
xena1973 1 year ago
@IDH77 Paul speaking to the church not in Heaven but on earth that "rest" from persecution, tribulation, will occur when Jesus Christ flaming fire taking vengeance with everlasting punishment, Paul is writing to the church on earth, there is only one body, one elect, saints who are born again jew and gentile making one new man creation in Jesus Christ one sheep if you like I can give you scripture Jesus Christ preached one sheep, Paul as well......the church will be on earth till the 2nd coming
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 Tell me are you a Calvinist? Are you Amillennial?
I believe in only ONE body too! Please stop misrepresenting me as that is a form of LYING!
The GT is the judgment of God upon the earth but we are under no condemnation. Rom 8:1 So it does not make sense for the Church to go through it.
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 I believe in one body of elect, saints, that will be gathered at the 2nd coming not before that...............again I need a chapter or verse were Jesus Christ says that He will appear before the GT
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
Rapture happens THEN when men are saying "Peace and safety!"! They think they have achieved lasting peace!
2nd coming happens at the height of the Battle of Armageddon.
See Zech 14:1-5, 16:16 & 19:11-21
It is so clear if you have eyes to see and the courage to and throw off the shackles of pseudo-Romanism.
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 It seems you can pull out verse's but forget to study them you say:
Rapture -7 year tribulation-2nd coming are two seperate events, so can you explain to me how you fit 2 Thess chapter 1 the church is still on earth till the 2nd coming, with a pre trib rapture because in your belief system your dividing the church in two one at the rapture as you believe and Paul saying rest will occur at the 2nd coming not before.
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 Are you a bit thick?
I told you that I would not stand for being lied about. I do not split the church in 2 and I told you that if you continue lying about my beliefs that I would end this conversation.
YOU ARE A LIAR!
This conversation is ENDED!
IDH77 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Ok thanks have a good day..........
xena1973 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@IDH77 The elect lets see is it Israel or the church, 2 Tim 2:10, Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:1, the elect is the church the three books I have noted were written to the church not Israel as well Matthew 24:29-31 fits with what Paul is speaking about in 2 Thess chapter 1, no contradiction there.
xena1973 1 year ago
@IDH77 Romans 8: 1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, Yes there is no condemnation for the church when the wrath of God is revealed at the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ when He appears again..........
xena1973 1 year ago
@IDH77 So in your view your putting Jesus Christ 2nd advent parousia 1 Thess 4:16-18 7 years before the 2nd coming parousia and you believe Jesus Christ is coming 2 more times can you find were Jesus Christ said would come before the tribulation instead of going over the same verse over and over 1 Thess 4:16 is that all you can come up with................
xena1973 1 year ago
@IDH77 Matthew 24:37-42, 1 Thess 4:15-18, 2 Thess 2:1-3 the word coming is found meaning parousia and the verses are written to the church no other group all three verses are referring to the 2nd coming not a rapture to occur 7 years before that
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 His second coming IS after the GT!
The Rapture is before it!
Is that simple enough for you to understand?
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 Yes the 2nd coming is after the GT but the rapture I need a chapter, verse to show me that Jesus Christ said that He would come before the tribulation the key is "before" give me chapter and verse...........
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 Questions
Why is it that in the 2 Rapture passages unbelievers are not mentioned?
Why the GT at all if not to judge the world?
Why are the elect still under judgment according to Post Tribbers?
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 The judgement of God is the wrath of God occuring at the 2nd coming as well fits with 2 Thess chapter 1
xena1973 1 year ago
@IDH77 Thru out the Gospels Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Jesus Christ says He will appear when aftr the tribulation not before then, could you find me the chapter, verse, that says Jesus Christ will appear before tribulation in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21.
xena1973 1 year ago
@IDH77 Pre tribers say that the rapture of the church occurs in Revelation Chapter 4 but thru out the book of Revelation it is John the apostle who is receiving vision of heaven and earth going back and forth not the church. The words I saw, I heard, it was John the apostle and it was John the apostle who was taken up to see a vision in Chapter 4 in the book of Revelation
xena1973 1 year ago
@IDH77 If you believe in a rapture occuring in Revelation chapter 4 then there is a contradiction for Paul the apostle speaks of rest occuring at the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ found in 2 Thess Chapter 1, remember there is only one bride, one sheep, your either born again or not, jew and gentile are one body Paul says many times thru out the N.T.
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 The Rapture and the 2nd coming are two separate events separated by 7 years. (Lunar months)
So there is no contradiction!
What do you mean by rest in 2Thess 1?
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 Paul is speaking to the church telling them that they will have persecution, tribulation from the world till Jesus Christ comes in flaming fire which is a description of the 2nd coming not 7 years before Jesus Christ will come with He's Angels and judge the world with everlasting destruction from He's presence if you like to read the whole chapter its plain and simple to understand
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 Paul actually writes to CORRECT them because they were deceived into thinking that the persecution they were facing was the GT. Of course the Church will go through persecution in this age.
You are thinking like a pseudo-Roman Catholic with an Amillennial outlook.
Sure that Church will go through the GT but that is the Great Whore of Rev 17.
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 The wrath of God is not the great tribulation but the occurs at the 2nd coming when Jesus Christ comes to judge the world that is the wrath of God, not the great tribulation.
xena1973 1 year ago
@xena1973 Actually the coming of Christ signals the END of the Tribulation not the beginning of it since that is when he will set up his Millenial Kingdom.
See Rev 19 and Zech 14
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 - What wrath will we not be here to witness, the "thymos" wrath of the "orge" wrath of God? There is a huge difference. Check the Greek text to find out.
MidnightWatcher322 1 year ago
@MidnightWatcher322 Both! Using E-sword I can see that both words are used of the wrath of God.
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 1. "the Church" is Israel. Ekklesia (Greek) and Qahal/Eda (Hebrew) both mean: assembly, community, congregation. So, the "mixed multitude" called Israel was formed in Exodus 12, not in Acts 2.
2. "the Church" is a false teaching like "Heaven" is. We aren't going to "Heaven" to be with YHVH. If you are not in 1 of the 12 tribes, you won't get into the New Jerusalem (Rev. 20). I don't see a gate for "the Church".
kevinseanob 1 year ago
@kevinseanob 1st it’s obvious you aren’t even a Christian so you don’t know what you are talking about.
2nd Salvation is only for those who believe in Jesus Christ. John 14:6 Acts 4:12
3rd Romans 11:28 teaches that Israel are the enemies of the Gospel, so again it is obvious that Paul is talking about physical Israel.
4th The only time the phrase Israel of God is used it is talking about believing Jews not the great mass of Israel.
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 "1st it’s obvious you aren’t even a Christian so you don’t know what you are talking about."
Wow.
kevinseanob 1 year ago
@IDH77 Id like to see the verses proving the pre-trib view aswell
I cant find any
530HELP 1 year ago
@530HELP Do you believe that the Church and Israel are the same thing?
If so then it makes some sense that the church will go throught the GT.
If not then Rom 81 & 1Thess 5:9 tells us that the GT is the day of Gods wrath and the Church is exempt.
Eph 2:15 The church is seperate from Israel. That is 'ONE NEW MAN'.
This poster manke an artificial distinction between the GT and Gods wrath.
IDH77 1 year ago
@IDH77 darby was a liar dispensationalisim is a lie
and i think you know who the father of all lies is
why would you confuse the the day of the lord with the GT
1thess 5:9 is the talkin about the day of the lord and the thief
red rev 3:10 another thief like coming and see if it sounds like the GT or a secret rapture
530HELP 1 year ago
@530HELP Darby was a true defender of the biblical faith as compared to the pseudo Romanists that still infest the church today.
IDH77 1 year ago
So why does the Rapture happen when men are saying peace and Safety (1Thess 5:3) and the actual second coming happen at a time of World war? (Zech 14 & Rev 19)
IDH77 1 year ago
this is good stuff brother
if jesus is truth and his spirit dwells in us we need to decern things.
keep it comming
530HELP 2 years ago
Is it possible for a person to be amillennial and futurist? That is, seeing the millennium as an extended period of time, but then after the millennium, the rise of the Antichrist and the Tribulation, rather literally?
Reazzurro90 2 years ago
The bible is overtly clear that the millennial reign occurs after the battle of Armageddon. (Rev 20) Studying the timeline of Revelation of 13/14 it is also clear that the great trib and the antichrist's rampage occurs prior to the battle of Armageddon. So no. Secondly, Satan is bound throughout the millennial reign. There's no way that this has occurred yet. History proves that. Also, remember that Christ came physically the first time. He will the 2nd time also.
skydiver626 2 years ago
I'm not suggesting that amillennialism is correct or not.
I'm just wondering whether it is possible for someone who is amillennial to believe that a literal interpretation of the Tribulation will occur after the allegorical millennium, which, presumably, would be when Satan's chains are dissolved, allowing him to roam free and usher the Tribulation, the apostasy, and persecution.
Reazzurro90 2 years ago
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. One God, "Man"ifesting Himself as He see fit, for nothing is impossible for Him. Prepare your lamps, trim the wicks, be full of "oil" for the darkness is coming. Bless Yahshua who will lead us through it all as we endure "until the end". No one gets a "get out of tribulation free" card, all must endure and overcome him through the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony
EDMAXWELL2005 2 years ago
I have someone sending me messages at the moment who thinks Paul was the antichrist and the only book in the new testament he will accept as Scripture is Matthew.
People will believe what they want to believe and the pre-trib rapture gets them out of having to suffer and possibly die a horrible death.
But Christ will either keep us through it, or comfort us if we have to suffer for Him.
All Glory to Him!!!
DIETOSELFREPENT 2 years ago
@DIETOSELFREPENT ....... yeah, you probably have a bhi-cultist on your hands. They hate the greek words that refute their doctrine so they place all their hope in the Shem-Tov. The hebrew-Mattiyahu still refutes them ... and the Tanakh is more than enough to show that we are grafted into the olive branches of Israel. All Glory to Him !!!!!!!! shalom
KeyboardPacifist 6 months ago
Skydiver,
I'm not pre or post -- undecided, but you are confusing "The Day of the Lord" with the rapture, which may or may not be at the same time.
junkacc11 2 years ago
If you read I Thess 4:16-5:2, you will clearly see that Paul contextually links the rapture to the the day of the Lord. While the day of the Lord is a day of wrath against those who denied the gospel, it is also a day of salvation for the church who will be caught up on that day.
skydiver626 2 years ago
@junkacc11 ....... the DOTL = The Rapture = the Resurrection.
KeyboardPacifist 6 months ago
pre trib and the trinity are the 2 biggest lies in the church
seaneire 2 years ago
The trinity isn't a lie.
Proverbs1x26refurbed 2 years ago
prove it.
seaneire 2 years ago