7:30 exactly the problem; Reza Aslan wants only to identify the social aspect of the problem, Sam Harris wants only to identify the religious aspect of the problem. how did it take a half hour to get to this basic point?
"Muslims NEED to be offended because the truth about the cult they have the misfortune of being born to is offensive and most muslims are too afraid or brainwashed to face these truths."
Jews lived in Arab lands without any problem at all? Really, Reza? And you have the gall to accuse others of not understanding the region? That was the most innaccurate statement uttered so far during this entire debate.
Also, if we stop thinking about Palestine in religious terms than the conflict makes absolutely no sense. The ONLY reason Muslims opposed the creation of Israel is because it was created as a state with a Jewish majority. Why didn't the Arab League invade Jordan?
Are you saying that if Christians, Hindus, or another Muslim nation came to Palestine blundered, killed, terrorised and stole the land and forced the inhabitants out, Palestinians out of their 5000 years old country, that Palestinians would just meet them with roses and vacate the land and go and live in camps. Some common sense please!
5000???? and where did I say that? Jews did not steal the land of Palestine. They have lived there for 3500 years. Muslims have only been there for about 1300 years. Jews in Israel legally petitioned for a state to be created from lands that had previously belonged to the Ottoman Empire but which at the time were under British control. In response, Muslims declared a war of extermination against the state of Israel, creating the Palestinian refugee crisis in the process.
@arraba99 I'm sorry I just have to reply a second time because what you said was so ridiculous. You really believe that "Palestinians" had a country for 5000 years? I mean first, there has NEVER been a country of Palestine, not even for 1 day, much less for 5000 years which would make it BY FAR the oldest country in the world, going back an impressive 2000 years before any recorded history!! that's amazing. Muslim propaganda is incredible...
You are either ignorant of history or a hopeless Zionist.
The golden age of Judaism is considered to be the period during which they lived and prospered under Islamic empire rule.
Check real history, not Zionistory propaganda.
There was no problem between Islam/Arabs and Jews till the Pseudo-Semitic Zionist "jews" of Europe were imported to Palestine; and expelled their inhabitants through massacres and systematic terror campaign to establish their genocidal entity.
@arraba99 I am an extremely well-informed student of history and a pragmatic and realistic objective observer who does not support any nationalist movement including historic Zionism (I feel the term today is obsolete and don't use it), and Arab Nationalism. I know the real history. By the things you've said, obviously you do not. If you think the golden age of Jews was living under the heel of Muslims you are just flat out stupid. Islam was a curse in every land it spread to. Ask the Hindus.
You may be a good student of Zionistory, but not real history
Golden age of Judaism under Muslim rules was coined and described as such by Jews not "revisionist pseudo- Semitic Zionist" as being that under Islam
Check history of Jews under Abbasside period (Bagdad) and Jews in Spain "Andalusia"
They were so well treated, when the Muslims were defeated in Spain they left with them rather than stay under Christian rules. Some settled in Istanbul and others in Palestine
You disagreed with me, yet repeated what I essentially stated; You should learn how to say , I agree; even to an opponent in a dialogue.
I know Jews were afraid of being slaughtered under Christian rules in Spain after Muslims lost the war. Jews did not leave Spain while Muslims were there! I wonder why? When Christians took over Jews left! I wonder why? Jews left to settle in Muslim land! Again I wonder why?
Reza the Retard thats cant bring himself to concede that Islam is a religion and a cult of death and so he constructs all these deluded non sensical non sequiturs to direct the audience away from the Truth. I wonder how Reza the Retard would try and explain away how Muhammad beheaded 700 Jews, or how he ordered the assisination of countless dissenters including pregnant women, or how he had sex with a 9 year old and then try to justify how he can possibly be the highest example for all Muslims.
@gunner23 Were Moses or Samuel more moral? Leading genocide against Arabic tribes and taking slaves? Reza favors liberal interpretations of the Koran. I happen to agree with Harris for the most part but I don't see the Quran as more morally objectionable than the old testament.
@MrNicMachiavelli Youve never read the old testament nor have you read the Quran. Only a delinquint with a reading level of a 6 year old would say the Old testament is as violent as the Koran. I dont think your a delinquint so by elimination your statement clearly shows you havent read either. I used to think the same until i read both books.
@gunner23 I have read much of the old testament, including all of the Torah. I have read pieces of the Koran. In the first five books of the old testament alone God condones slavery, theft, genocide (including murdering women and children), unprovoked attacks and conquest, sacrifice (it did occur once), rape, stoning for breaking the sabbath, mass murder, and pretty much every crime imaginable. I can provide examples. I am a secular atheist and so this isn't about an affection for the Koran.
@MrNicMachiavelli Parts of the Quran? try reading the Hadiths with them. The hadiths are the works and sayings of Muhammad, basically his bio. Once youve done that, then itll be interesting to hear whether you think Muhammad is morally the same as Moses.Muhammad took sex slaves. In the old Testament the slaves were willing servants paying of debts .Books for you to read "Is God a moral monster" by Copan and an article written by Clay Jones on the old testament slaughter of the cannanites.
@gunner23 Ooooh no they weren't. The Jewish ones were working off debts. The non-Jewish slaves had NO rights ever. Sex slaves? In Exodus if you raped a virgin it was acceptable if you married her. God's law. The Haddiths are deplorable. Some of them are authentic, some are not, but I think you can simply use the Quran for immoral teachings. But to say it is any less moral than the old testament is wrong.
@MrNicMachiavelli Your a bit dim. No one says that moses or any other person in the old testament is the exemplar human being, but Muhammad in islam is, therefore if its okay for Muhammad to kill a family and keep the wife as a sex slaves than its permissable for Muslims to do so today. In Christianity Jesus is the highest moral example. So to say these are morally equivalent is absurd. Simple
@gunner23, when flaming always make sure you understand the other person's arguments first before replying with one that demonstrates a lack of knowledge about the one you are making. God directly tells Moses in those passages to do these things. Word for word.
@gunner23 obviously there is a limit to the amount of data I can fit into these passages but you really need to read Exodus, Samuel, and Leviticus, and the entire old testament actually. God directly tells these prophets what to do word for word.
And your original statement is following in Rezas footsteps of employing non sequiturs. What old testament violenc has to do with Islam is anyones guess. You dont understand what Islam is, all the peaceful verses are abrogated by the latter violent verses. Terrorists are just being good muslims.
@gunner23 I understand what Islam is... I agree with Harris on more than I do with Aslan on religious matters. I think most religion propituates problems and all of it is superstition. But given moderate Muslims exist, and there is so much immorality written in the Bible which comes directly from the words and behavior of God himself, and not just the actions of the characters in it, religious people can pick and choose what to believe from these passages.
@MrNicMachiavelli So why did you feel the need to use "the old testament is violent too" statement ? what the hell has the old testament got to do with anything thats being discusses here! hence your panache for non sequiturs.
@gunner23 I was pointing out that the demands in the old testament are equally or even more violent and offensive but people have learned to ignore those passages. Hopefully that will eventually happen in Islam.
@MrNicMachiavelli The difference between Islam and Christianity is that we have the new covenant of Jesus Christ. We have a new Testament which supercedes the Old. We havent "ignore(d)" the Old testament violence, its basic understanding, that all that violence as a result of Sin fell on the head of Jesus on that cross. He paid the punishment for sin for all of us. Therefore no one is to put to death, like in the OT, becuase Jesus already did it. As for Islam its just straight out barbarism...
@gunner23 there are plenty of horrors in the new testament. and Jesus supports the cruelties in the old testament (Matthew 5:17) The bible was used for a long time to succe:ssfully support slavery and womens rights. There is plenty of murder in the bible that is justified by God (Genesis 38:7) The lord killed an infant because he was "wicked in the sight of him" God pays back Ahab by killing his son (2 kings9:24). Supports slavery (Eph 6:5)There are too manhy for me to list here. Take care
The rather blatant fallacy to be observed with this type of perspective is that to believe what this man is saying you must then also believe that they are not somehow aware of the fact that they are giving religious justifications for their behavior or the direct implications of that fact! Why? Apparently because Western apologists like him know better than them!
All Aslan does when he visits the Muslim world is sight seeing cause he seems to know nothing near reality. What complete nonsense. He should not be allowed to sit on the same podium as Sam Harris.
@Cynicleese I was thinking the same thing. The audacity is really incredible considering the function of his position, especially to interrupt Sam with paltry comments that amount to little more than declaring that he's offended. I think it speaks to Harris' cool, sober rationality that he handles this so well.
Majority of muslims (appox. 1 Billion) are extremely poor and they live in Bangladesh, India (40% out of 1 billion), Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia and African countries for who the rich muslims (arabs) don't even care about!!
When Mr. Aslan says that, "...before 1948, of course, there were tens of thousands of Jews living alongside their Arab neighbors without any problem at all..." he has NO IDEA what he's talking about. Israeli/palestinian conflict had been intense and sustained for decades by that point. I'm not saying which side is right or wrong. I'm merely saying Mr. Aslan is embarrassing himself and has no right to be discussing a complex topic for which he clearly has little context.
Aslan just needs to stop talking. He'd be a great hair model, or maybe an eyeglasses sale model for Lenscrafters, but he should NEVER open his mouth. Tragic.
dorsk 188 misses the subtlety of Reza's point. The Palestine/Israel conflict is being mistakenly characterized as religious AND socio-politico-economic debates are frequently couched in religious language as a rhetorical tool. Solving the problem by banning religion makes as much sense as solving the problem of urban blight in the US by banning racial identifiers. It is natural that humans identify ourselves in smaller subgroups than 'the entire human race'. What next, white man?
@Michaeldiamondmd Are you saying the conflict is exclusively social-political-economic? Religion enables the continuation of the conflict because of the number of people who believe it's bullshit REGARDLESS of whatever the conflicts actual root causes are. Human's identifying themselves in smaller subgroups and then hurting others out of loyalty to a given subgroup INSTEAD of having an overriding loyalty to humanity as a whole IS the problem, and religion (which IS bullshit) enables this.
uh... no conflict whatsoever before 1948, that is a claim that can be quickly verified for those interested. I have to believe that Aslan is not totally ignorant of pre-948 history in Palestine, so he is either quite forgetful (lol) or being dishonest to favor his argument. Clearly social, economic, and religious factors all have the potential to influence the dynamic. No need for mutual exclusion in the tenants of the argument.
Sam Harris I'm afraid has missed the point over what drives people to engage in sectarian violence etc. It is not fundamentally about religion. The sectarian division which was deliberately stoked up by imperialism along the lines of religious differences is based on the fear of oppression as a minority/ geuine fears over living standards etc. The conflict amongst Shia and Sunni in Iraq or Catholic and Protestant is not about religion but over the material resources and prospects for people.
@ramo50ful Reza's continued talking and refusing to concede any points doesn't mean he's right. Sam Harris knows what he's talking about. Reza's arguments just sound good, unfortunately they're not grounded in reality.
@mojacarben No kidding. The moderator should shut the hell up. He has no reason making any points, making his opinion known, or entering the debate at all. Horrible, Horrible moderator.
When you hear Reza saying that Bin Laden's speeches are not religious at all, you can see a big liar in him......in fact, the biggest liar!!!! Mr.Reza, if that's the case, then why did Bin Laden ask the Americans to accept Islam? ......You big LIAR!!!!!!!
Horrible decision to go to questions at that moment. Sam was making a good point and Reza was actually engaged in the conversation, rather than trying to dodge and demure.
Reza essentially conceded at the end, though. Sam: "Jewish/Muslim issue would be easier to resolve without religion." Reza: "If we talked about Israel/Palestine, rather than religion, it would be easier to solve." That's almost exactly what Sam said.
@dorsk188 no, Sam is making the point of Religon being the main instigator of violence in palestine. Whilst Reza makes the point that the fighting is just as much (if not more) a social problem opposed to a religous one.
@bjl34565 That was what Reza said in the beginning, but before the conversation was interrupted, he slipped closer to Sam's thesis. Given time, he probably would have agreed entirely. It takes about 10 minutes of honest conversation on a single point of disagreement for someone to change their position. We'll never know for sure, but I suspect Reza would have been unable to escape the reality at hand. Religion makes this issue substantially harder to solve. Any honest assessment shows it.
@dorsk188 yer true that, i've just read Reza's new Book "How to win a Cosmic war" (which is just a 180 page book on how religon is pretty much as blood thirsty as fascism) and i couldnt help but thinking the same thing, but you have to consider the fact that he is ultimatley defending a harder, and one that (I believe) he doesnt 100% agree with.
The point Reza's been hammering, which, unsurprisingly, evaded the vast majority of commentators, is that the roots of the conflicts are secular, terrestrial, almost pedestrian concerns. Only they are sometimes expressed and formulated using a religious vocabulary as to resonate with the masses; much like a patriotic speech, filled with galvanizing words, is more likely to appeal to the common man. It's not Jews vs Muslims; it's palestinians (or Arabs) vs Israelis. It's about a piece of land...
@Elpistolero29 You're correct, but only on a superficial level. Finkelstein, prominent critic of Israel, went to live with Lebanese families as an act of solidarity. Their initial reaction on learning he was a Jew was distrust, since it's been pounded into them dogmatically from birth, a criteria of eternal life. What other reason could you have for hating someone sharing your ideology? US support of Israel, including nuclear arms, comes from the religious myth of the wandering Jew.
@Elpistolero29 I think that Harris would counter this comment by saying that these conflicts are exacerbated by religion. I don't think it's true that religion is merely there for framing; it's more powerful than that; it removes ambiguity before young minds have a chance to make up their own mind. Nevertheless, this is a good comment.
@dorsk188 That not what Harris said. Aslan asserted that if the real issue was addressed than the problem would be resolved. Harris was busy ignoring the question and taking science fiction. Religion exists, except the reality. Now provide real situations, otherwise your argument is irrelevant.
@paradoxicalparabola HIV doesn't really kill people, it only makes them more susceptible to other diseases, which kill them. Should doctors then say: "AIDS exists, accept it. Let's just try to find a perfect cure for every other possible infectious disease."? Of course not.
Encouraging the eradication of religion altogether IS a solution that would make the world better in a myriad of ways, like curing AIDS would make a patient healthier.
@paradoxicalparabola No one claims it would fix everything, but it is an actual policy we could take. Off the top of my head, we could eliminate automatic tax-exemption for churches and provide good comparative religion courses as part of basic education. There are very straightforward policies that would moderate religious influence in this country and abroad without something radical like prohibition. Just because you don't like the idea, doesn't mean it's not part of the solution.
from 00:22 onwards he completely missed what Sam was saying and reeled back his own perception of what was said. Religious people always do that in these videos...i suppose selective hearing is a necessity if your going to believe all of that claptrap!
I don't think Osama bin Laden would be attacking America if he subscribed to Jainism instead of Islam. On the other hand Reza Aslan has a point, that if it weren't for Israel, and other interventions the U.S. has bungled in the Middle East, Osama wouldn't be attacking us. I think that Sam Harris realizes that it's not just for religious reasons that people strap bombs to themselves.
However, explain to me how the practice of stoning and wearing of burkas aren't products of Islam.
@Setzer Yes but America hasn't waged wars, nor undermined political aspirations of the Jainist world has it? The reason various Muslims HAVE radicalised, AND named the West as the enemy, is MAINLY because of these reasons.
I like to see how quickly Jainists would radicalise to save their adherents and to stop increasing meddling in their affairs, among other offences.
@pretzalman A violent Jainist is a paradox. If a Jainist practiced violence he/she would then not be a Jainist. Violence however is justified and supported by the Koran and the Bible as well. I already stated in my comment that American intervention is responsible for the blow-back we see today from the Muslim community. You cannot deny though that religious extremism exacerbates the problem to the point where it's impossible to reach the hearts and minds of the fanatics.
@Setzer Partially correct my friend. The Qur'an specifies WHEN it is appropriate to carry out violence, overwhelmingly it is in self-defence. This can be examined historically as well, as Muslims were oppressed and fought against often in Arabia by non-Muslims at Islam's advent.
I never advocated religious extremism, frankly I find it disgusting. What I'm saying is that too often these terrorists are too soon written of as simply that, when the actual matter is several layers more deep.
@pretzalman "these terrorists are too soon written of as simply that, when the actual matter is several layers more deep." I've already agreed with you on this point. I was just saying to pretend like the Qu'ran is a book about peace that's being misused by a few people is nonsense. Look the Qu'ran, the Bible they're both full of verses of violence and peace. There's so many contradictions because it's all bullshit.
@pretzalman The thing you don't get is that there are NO circumstances when violence is appropriate.
Pretzalman, your views and those you have linked in your channel epitomise the issues Sam Harris so elegantly describes. Peace and Violence are incompatible, whether it's your religion, or your reading of the tealeaves that's telling you it's justified.
@EvilRoySlad3 I'm an Atheist. But I'm culturally Muslim.
And yes. There is. Violence in self defence is an unalienable right, to any human being. Muslims are told to act in defence, to act passively i.e. reacting, not aggressively i.e. acting.
Jihad of the sword is only for defence, against aggressors.
“Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors." Qur'an. Surah al-Baqarah: 190-193
@Setzer Secondly, Islam most certainly does NOT hold a monopoly on stoning. All the Semitic religions have mentioned them as punishments, Islam is definitely not the catalyst for stoning, it is ignorant to assert so.
The Burka is not prescribed in Islam, only the hijab is. All the others chador, niqab etc are cultural traditions kept often before the advent of Islam. The Burka holds its origins in, I think, Persia as a cultural garb of sorts.
@pretzalman Secondly, just because Islam does not hold a monopoly on stoning does not mean that it's not because of religion that they do it. Show me a secular country that accepts this as a suitable punishment for adultery. Please tell me why burkas are compulsory for women. It doesn't make any practical sense other than for the subjugation of women under a patriarchal society that is based on an intolerant religion.
@Setzer Burkas are NOT compulsory, I refuted that claim in my previous comment, did you read it?
Secondly Islam was a great champion for women's rights in its time. It was the first to grant women unconditional rights (inheritance, ownership of buildings/ businesses, the right to deny marriage, the right to CHOOSE marriage etc).
I'm not denying many of the punishments laid in the Qur'an aren't dated, they are. It's simply unfair though to paint the religion as intolerant in such a bold stroke.
Sam: No No, The problem is so many people believe that it is.
Reza: are you one of those people who, Sam.
The short exchange, above, captures the shallowness of Sam's proposition - flat, contradictory, and ignorance packaged in pseudo-intellectualism
Yes, Sam is one of those people (who believe that the problems are grounded in religion) as shown throughout his arguments, in this and other debates.
It's amazing how a nation can be engaged in three state terrorist/torture operations,Iraq,Afghanistan & Pakistan--all begun by Bush who told Fatah official Nabil Shaath that 'god told me to go fight terrorists in Afghanistan & to free Iraq from tyranny'--and how Isreal,the most brutally terroristic,racist state in the mid-east,run by a far-right fundamentalist military junta can be viewed as purely political in their aims but not Islam.
@thirdshift47 Both USA and Israel get their fair share of criticism though. All we ever seem to talk about is "western imperialism". Almost every conversation about the blatant and systematic abuses perpetuated by Islam, as an institution and as individual motive, quickly descends into a conversation about the 'evil west', or a comparison with Christianity. This is a problem in itself. You can't justify one bad thing by comparing it to another. They don't magically cancel each other out.
On another post i've described actions such as the recent killing of a christian Pakistani MP by Muslims for challenging the nation's blaspheny laws as nothing short of Fascist & blatanly criminal.But that's precisely what happens when you combine the most fundamentalist strains of the Abrahamic faiths with ultraconservatism:you get a strikingly antidemocratic cultural movement;and Islam is no different from 20th century radical protestantism in the US in this regard.
Secondly,the reason so many talks regarding Islam descend into talk about the US & Isreal is because it's beyond ridiculous to suggest that with two nations--both currently engaged in policies uniquely destructive to Muslim populations--that it's somehow fair,or even sane,to speak about Islam's 'evils' in some kind of fantacyland vacuum where our gov't's policies are totally innocent in their implications on actually manufacturing right-wing militants.
@thirdshift47 But we need to stop pretending the systematic execution of homosexuals and adulterers, the regular butchery of thieves, the customary scourging of lovers and drinkers, the routine murder or imprisonment of blasphemers and apostates, the hundreds of acid attacks against women who refuse arranged marriage, and the thousands of honour killings, every year, throughout the centuries, are anything to do with 9/11 or war, or imperialism, or western foreign policy.
Those kinds of acts are obviously horrific,patent human rights abuses.But as i've stated earlier they're also the direct product of less democratically evolved regional cultures.That's not an excuse but only to say it's hardly an adequate reflection of the kind of highly sophisticated,'Jeffersonian' democratic uprisings happening in Muslim nations that are also notable for the huge role that women & other marginal groups have played in their vitality.
@thirdshift47 No, they are the direct product of a long dead puppet master who still holds sway over so many peoples minds, people who believe their figurehead had a direct experience with the grand architect of the universe. This is a hereditory belief, evolved to be resistant against criticism and resistant to change - right now, in its most common strains, perpetuating an endless cycle of abuses.
There's plenty of dead people holding sway over even the most independent minds.
Indeed,the economist John Maynard Keyenes once stated that,"Practical men,who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence,are usually the slaves of some defunct economist."
All conservative is by definition resistant to change.That's why it's called conservatism.To suggest that it's biological,though,is quite weird & scary.lol
@thirdshift47 I'm not suggesting its biological. It was an analogy, obviously. Hereditory as in passed down, normally from parents to children, but broadly from generation to generation. Evolved as a cultural phenomenon and social construct, crafted as a mind virus and as a tool of psychological control by men with political aims, throughout history, a dogmatic ideology that both creates and survives on ignorance.
We'll just disagree on Islam.Right now in America there labor class is getting its ass whupped,& it isn't Muslims & immigrant workers that are responsible;it's the rich & our political class that serves 'em.
So,atleast for me,times are too critical for me to be focusing my energy on something as counterrevolutionary as how to better reinforce divisions in society that can only serve to further entrench my own oppression.
@thirdshift47 Your view of Israel being the most brutal is unjustified. I am not a proponent of Israel or the billions of foreign aid that the US sends them every year but your assertion that they are the most terroristic state in the middle east is idiotic at best and an outright lie at worst. The Israelis are not the ones who take women and children as human shields and blow up civilian buses. Israel makes an attempt to secure its safety against hostile neighbors on all sides.
@MVT44 The view of Israel as brutal is actually completely uncontroversial, unless you think that international law is also "idiotic" (not an uncommon view in the West, I'll concede). No country has had more UN resolutions levelled against it for human rights abuses than Israel (over sixty). And the U.S. has vetoed dozens of these resolutions over the decades. The U.N. has also repeatedly made clear that the settlements are in violation of the Geneva Convention.
@MVT44 What's more, look at Israel's 2009 "war" on Gaza, for which the U.N. rightly criticized Israel for war crimes and possible crimes against humanity and in which the IDF killed around 900 civilians (a third of which were children). About a dozen Israelis were killed. These are just a couple examples of Israel's complete disregard for international law and human life.
The moderators of these talks are always biased against the atheists... it's just the way it goes, and it's probably a part of the sympathetic nonsense that Sam is trying to illuminate in the first place.
Anyone calling Reza here an idiot is just highlighting their own paramount ignorance.
You may disagree with him, but the man is certainly not ignorant. He makes several interesting points and whether you agree with him or not, his questions are valid.
I do tend to side with Harris in this debate, however.
@RJhasFLOW No, really. Reza is an idiot. Sure he is well travelled and has a position at a university, but thats just what makes his case so astonishing. He completely lacks the capacity to put issues into their proper contexts.
If you deny that islam or religion in general is a causal factor in all the violence we see in the middle east, then you are an idiot. You simply dont know what you are talking about.
@JQisAwesome Hey JQ, I think now would be a good time to let you know that im not an actual lawyer, I was just kidding, and even if I was there is no way in hell that I would advise you on your current legal troubles. I suggest you seek professional psychiatric help.
I honestly dont believe you when you tell me that your first sexual experience was touching your infant cousin when you were 19, so please dont contact me again telling me about it.
seems like the man on the right who was, i guess, umpiring (not sure what to call it) this debate was biased against sam. twice he stopped him from talking to firstly refute his claim and then secondly ending the debate and turning to the audience for questions. im surprised that Sam didnt say anything.
Ok, but all Reza is saying is that it is all misunderstanding, the real issue is not tackled etc.......but he's not explaining the issues either - as far as he is concerned things are all alright so 9/11, 7/11, beheadings etc are probably just another way of Islamic life?
I have muslim friends who have better understanding of the situation than this man.
Even the 9/11 commission report cited the reasons for 9/11 which is the support of the apartheid state of Israel, support/ placing dictators in the middle east, US troops in their holy land etc... This is a known fact. You just dont know it cause the mass media hasnt told you this.
7/11 was a response to Iraq war dumbfuck. For what the British has been doing for the past 400 years in the Muslims world from colonialism to dividing and conquering 7/11 is nothing.
Well, then anyone can say that for the unimaginable atrocities that Muslims committed on Hindus in India for 800 years - what USA, Israel, Russia, Britain are doing is nothing.
Well I guess according to your logic, Muslim humiliation death and suffering today is karma for their 1400 years of brutal Imperialism and slave trade. 7/11 has no grand excuse, there aren't enough excuses to go around for the Islamic suicide bombings that kill mostly other Muslims in Muslim dominated countries every day. Why the hell can't you people admit this religion is a problem?
This Raza is an idiot, trying to cover up religious extremism. Crap, these muslim fools kill in the name of religion and this guy says religion is being exploited as language
Aslan's primary strategy in this debate was to direct incredulity towards Harris's knowledge of affairs in the Islamic world, and then barely offer an explanation, much less a rebuttal, to Harris's points.
in a lot of debates the religious side claims that their opponent misunderstands this and grossly simplifies that. Im just waiting to hear Harris say "no you don't understand islam". that would be cool
@peamealbaconrules no that would be falling to their level and would be sort of childish. who would want to sound as pretentious and dismissive as reza? nobody :)
I've watched hundreds of videos on similar subjects, and it seems that religion today is like a deer caught in headlights. For thousands of years, they've been coasting along, confident in their dominance and mind control of the masses. Now, all of a sudden, people are getting tired of it, and are daring to ask questions. As the number of skeptics increase, they realize that they have no defense of their superstition, and resort to backpedaling. They're losing control and don't know what to do.
Reza, but Sams explanation explains why sunny are fighting shia in Iraq. The reason is religious. Nobody ever said that muslims don't fight wars also for other reasons.
was actually quite impressed with reza islam; am a big fan of sam harris but he does a real injustice by pre-judging billions of christians and muslims by the actions of some.
was actually quite impressed with reza islam; am a big fan of sam harris but he does a great injustice by pre-judging billions of christians and muslims by the actions of some.
I would agree to some extent with Reza here ..that blaming religion only, is a bit oversimplification of the situation and a rather misleading one. Social and cultural context are as important.
even Mel Gibson knows Israel is a jewish state. Reza Aslan is completely incompetent and time and time again he proves he knows absolutely nothing about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and continues to babble on desperately trying to sound intelligent against an actual intellectual like Sam Harris.
even the Kirsch's dumb ass gets caught in the crossfire a couple times making idiotic claims that reflect Aslan's moronic and uneducated world views.
I really find Jonathan Kirsch annoying. Is here there to debate Sam, or is he there to moderate? Let the debaters debate, and facilitate it, and keep your idiotic opinions to yourself for once.
Every time I've seen him I wind up just being annoyed with him the whole time.
Reza is such an idiot. Proof you can be educated, well travelled, and quite brilliant, and still sound like a moron when you open you rmouth. He makes me ill with his misunderstanding of what he claims to be an expert on.
Holy shit Aslan is such a point dodger, forget for a moment that if Jews didn't have a religious identity then they would've calmed down and interbred and they wouldn't be so "separate," thus destroying the lines of division that encourage all of this violence in the first place.
If spirits exist, 72 virgins exist, miracles exist, etc, then a fundamentally different ontological context inspires a fundamentally different ethical framework from those ontological propositions. Martyrdom is rational if you believe Allah exists. If they really believed that Allah does not actually exist as an independent supernatural agent and religion is merely a linguistic impetus, I guarantee you would only see as many suicide bombers as there are liberal Muslim suicide bombers: none!
@rollingklouds All crusades in history and in the bible would be just as bad or worse, were the populations and technologies the same as they are today (and going percentage-wise, Yahweh beats them all by wiping out everyone but 1 family in a boat). Hitler, a Christian, killed many millions, doing "the Lord's work." Stalin, an atheist, killed at least twice as many, but his killing was not *in the name of atheism*, it was in the name of the State. An atheist is not a humanist by default.
@rollingklouds It should be obvious to everyone (except, apparently theists) that just because 2 people disbelieve the same thing doesn't mean that they must believe in the same moral system. That's a non-sequitur. Atheism is merely a disbelief in the existence of a gods. This has nothing to do with ethics and morality except to people who believe, erroneously, that they are nece
the "Let me pass you a question" interruption is the best defence.
heettan 2 hours ago
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Sam is being hammered for his stupidity. What a shame for an educated individual.
dalasoft 1 week ago
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Injustice IDIOT is behind the Bombing
How Ignorant is this HARRIS
You can be Architekt, Doctor even King you have to fight the INJUSITCE!!
SAM HARRIS is a ZIONIST that key Word
MUSLIM have to fight INJUSTICE:
In Koran state: you were the best Nation in the World.
Why:??? by fighting Injustice and calling People for justice!!!Not by Race or Religion
almao2006 1 month ago
7:30 exactly the problem; Reza Aslan wants only to identify the social aspect of the problem, Sam Harris wants only to identify the religious aspect of the problem. how did it take a half hour to get to this basic point?
sananima 1 month ago
"Muslims NEED to be offended because the truth about the cult they have the misfortune of being born to is offensive and most muslims are too afraid or brainwashed to face these truths."
Nietzschean1000 1 month ago
@Nietzschean1000
Speaking of satanic cults:
Talmud: Sanhedrin: 59a
“ A heathen who studies the Torah deserves death “
Rab makes nine years the minimum; but if one committed sodomy with a child of lesser age, no guilt is incurred. Samuel makes three the minimum.
The theft of which is regarded as an offence by heathens but not by Jews
Bammidber raba c 21 Every Jew,who spills the blood of the non-Jews,is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God.''
Need I say more!
arraba99 1 month ago
Reza is a confident, but very unengaging speaker. He shits me.
orbital92hotmail 1 month ago
@orbital92hotmail Agreed.
writersblock26 1 month ago
Reza is such an apologist, it makes me sick.
rep300 1 month ago
aslan is trying to defend what is indefensible ...which compels dishonesty.
freakiest421 1 month ago
Jews lived in Arab lands without any problem at all? Really, Reza? And you have the gall to accuse others of not understanding the region? That was the most innaccurate statement uttered so far during this entire debate.
Also, if we stop thinking about Palestine in religious terms than the conflict makes absolutely no sense. The ONLY reason Muslims opposed the creation of Israel is because it was created as a state with a Jewish majority. Why didn't the Arab League invade Jordan?
kalbahamut 2 months ago
Are you saying that if Christians, Hindus, or another Muslim nation came to Palestine blundered, killed, terrorised and stole the land and forced the inhabitants out, Palestinians out of their 5000 years old country, that Palestinians would just meet them with roses and vacate the land and go and live in camps. Some common sense please!
arraba99 1 month ago
5000???? and where did I say that? Jews did not steal the land of Palestine. They have lived there for 3500 years. Muslims have only been there for about 1300 years. Jews in Israel legally petitioned for a state to be created from lands that had previously belonged to the Ottoman Empire but which at the time were under British control. In response, Muslims declared a war of extermination against the state of Israel, creating the Palestinian refugee crisis in the process.
kalbahamut 1 month ago
@arraba99 I'm sorry I just have to reply a second time because what you said was so ridiculous. You really believe that "Palestinians" had a country for 5000 years? I mean first, there has NEVER been a country of Palestine, not even for 1 day, much less for 5000 years which would make it BY FAR the oldest country in the world, going back an impressive 2000 years before any recorded history!! that's amazing. Muslim propaganda is incredible...
kalbahamut 1 month ago
@kalbahamut
You are either ignorant of history or a hopeless Zionist.
The golden age of Judaism is considered to be the period during which they lived and prospered under Islamic empire rule.
Check real history, not Zionistory propaganda.
There was no problem between Islam/Arabs and Jews till the Pseudo-Semitic Zionist "jews" of Europe were imported to Palestine; and expelled their inhabitants through massacres and systematic terror campaign to establish their genocidal entity.
arraba99 1 month ago
@arraba99 I am an extremely well-informed student of history and a pragmatic and realistic objective observer who does not support any nationalist movement including historic Zionism (I feel the term today is obsolete and don't use it), and Arab Nationalism. I know the real history. By the things you've said, obviously you do not. If you think the golden age of Jews was living under the heel of Muslims you are just flat out stupid. Islam was a curse in every land it spread to. Ask the Hindus.
kalbahamut 1 month ago
@kalbahamut
You may be a good student of Zionistory, but not real history
Golden age of Judaism under Muslim rules was coined and described as such by Jews not "revisionist pseudo- Semitic Zionist" as being that under Islam
Check history of Jews under Abbasside period (Bagdad) and Jews in Spain "Andalusia"
They were so well treated, when the Muslims were defeated in Spain they left with them rather than stay under Christian rules. Some settled in Istanbul and others in Palestine
arraba99 1 month ago
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sananima 1 month ago
@sananima
You disagreed with me, yet repeated what I essentially stated; You should learn how to say , I agree; even to an opponent in a dialogue.
I know Jews were afraid of being slaughtered under Christian rules in Spain after Muslims lost the war. Jews did not leave Spain while Muslims were there! I wonder why? When Christians took over Jews left! I wonder why? Jews left to settle in Muslim land! Again I wonder why?
Why not explain away the obvious Genius?
arraba99 1 month ago
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sananima 1 month ago
Reza Aslan seems to believe that hostility against Islam is caused by prejudice. That's a pattern many people fall for.
kibo3232 2 months ago
Lol why won't they admit that sam's right about israel and palestine they just change the point
jadagod 3 months ago
Reza Aslan is right
mustafazakri 4 months ago
Askance is right
mustafazakri 4 months ago
Reza the Retard thats cant bring himself to concede that Islam is a religion and a cult of death and so he constructs all these deluded non sensical non sequiturs to direct the audience away from the Truth. I wonder how Reza the Retard would try and explain away how Muhammad beheaded 700 Jews, or how he ordered the assisination of countless dissenters including pregnant women, or how he had sex with a 9 year old and then try to justify how he can possibly be the highest example for all Muslims.
gunner23 4 months ago in playlist Reza Aslan Debate
@gunner23 Were Moses or Samuel more moral? Leading genocide against Arabic tribes and taking slaves? Reza favors liberal interpretations of the Koran. I happen to agree with Harris for the most part but I don't see the Quran as more morally objectionable than the old testament.
MrNicMachiavelli 4 months ago
@MrNicMachiavelli Youve never read the old testament nor have you read the Quran. Only a delinquint with a reading level of a 6 year old would say the Old testament is as violent as the Koran. I dont think your a delinquint so by elimination your statement clearly shows you havent read either. I used to think the same until i read both books.
gunner23 4 months ago
@gunner23 I have read much of the old testament, including all of the Torah. I have read pieces of the Koran. In the first five books of the old testament alone God condones slavery, theft, genocide (including murdering women and children), unprovoked attacks and conquest, sacrifice (it did occur once), rape, stoning for breaking the sabbath, mass murder, and pretty much every crime imaginable. I can provide examples. I am a secular atheist and so this isn't about an affection for the Koran.
MrNicMachiavelli 4 months ago
@MrNicMachiavelli Parts of the Quran? try reading the Hadiths with them. The hadiths are the works and sayings of Muhammad, basically his bio. Once youve done that, then itll be interesting to hear whether you think Muhammad is morally the same as Moses.Muhammad took sex slaves. In the old Testament the slaves were willing servants paying of debts .Books for you to read "Is God a moral monster" by Copan and an article written by Clay Jones on the old testament slaughter of the cannanites.
gunner23 4 months ago
@gunner23 Ooooh no they weren't. The Jewish ones were working off debts. The non-Jewish slaves had NO rights ever. Sex slaves? In Exodus if you raped a virgin it was acceptable if you married her. God's law. The Haddiths are deplorable. Some of them are authentic, some are not, but I think you can simply use the Quran for immoral teachings. But to say it is any less moral than the old testament is wrong.
MrNicMachiavelli 4 months ago
@MrNicMachiavelli Your a bit dim. No one says that moses or any other person in the old testament is the exemplar human being, but Muhammad in islam is, therefore if its okay for Muhammad to kill a family and keep the wife as a sex slaves than its permissable for Muslims to do so today. In Christianity Jesus is the highest moral example. So to say these are morally equivalent is absurd. Simple
gunner23 4 months ago
@gunner23, when flaming always make sure you understand the other person's arguments first before replying with one that demonstrates a lack of knowledge about the one you are making. God directly tells Moses in those passages to do these things. Word for word.
MrNicMachiavelli 4 months ago
@gunner23 obviously there is a limit to the amount of data I can fit into these passages but you really need to read Exodus, Samuel, and Leviticus, and the entire old testament actually. God directly tells these prophets what to do word for word.
MrNicMachiavelli 4 months ago
And your original statement is following in Rezas footsteps of employing non sequiturs. What old testament violenc has to do with Islam is anyones guess. You dont understand what Islam is, all the peaceful verses are abrogated by the latter violent verses. Terrorists are just being good muslims.
gunner23 4 months ago
@gunner23 I understand what Islam is... I agree with Harris on more than I do with Aslan on religious matters. I think most religion propituates problems and all of it is superstition. But given moderate Muslims exist, and there is so much immorality written in the Bible which comes directly from the words and behavior of God himself, and not just the actions of the characters in it, religious people can pick and choose what to believe from these passages.
MrNicMachiavelli 4 months ago
@gunner23 when did I say Islam was peaceful or that there aren't violent passages in the Quran?
MrNicMachiavelli 4 months ago
@MrNicMachiavelli So why did you feel the need to use "the old testament is violent too" statement ? what the hell has the old testament got to do with anything thats being discusses here! hence your panache for non sequiturs.
gunner23 4 months ago
@gunner23 I was pointing out that the demands in the old testament are equally or even more violent and offensive but people have learned to ignore those passages. Hopefully that will eventually happen in Islam.
MrNicMachiavelli 4 months ago
@MrNicMachiavelli The difference between Islam and Christianity is that we have the new covenant of Jesus Christ. We have a new Testament which supercedes the Old. We havent "ignore(d)" the Old testament violence, its basic understanding, that all that violence as a result of Sin fell on the head of Jesus on that cross. He paid the punishment for sin for all of us. Therefore no one is to put to death, like in the OT, becuase Jesus already did it. As for Islam its just straight out barbarism...
gunner23 4 months ago
@gunner23 there are plenty of horrors in the new testament. and Jesus supports the cruelties in the old testament (Matthew 5:17) The bible was used for a long time to succe:ssfully support slavery and womens rights. There is plenty of murder in the bible that is justified by God (Genesis 38:7) The lord killed an infant because he was "wicked in the sight of him" God pays back Ahab by killing his son (2 kings9:24). Supports slavery (Eph 6:5)There are too manhy for me to list here. Take care
sarainreno30 4 months ago
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Reza Arslan...
The rather blatant fallacy to be observed with this type of perspective is that to believe what this man is saying you must then also believe that they are not somehow aware of the fact that they are giving religious justifications for their behavior or the direct implications of that fact! Why? Apparently because Western apologists like him know better than them!
80EaterPumpkin 5 months ago
All Aslan does when he visits the Muslim world is sight seeing cause he seems to know nothing near reality. What complete nonsense. He should not be allowed to sit on the same podium as Sam Harris.
bhriguaneja 5 months ago
@Cynicleese I was thinking the same thing. The audacity is really incredible considering the function of his position, especially to interrupt Sam with paltry comments that amount to little more than declaring that he's offended. I think it speaks to Harris' cool, sober rationality that he handles this so well.
Diogeneswasright 6 months ago
Muslims in that region have sworn to eliminate Jews not because they are Israeli but because they are Jews.
NefariousVirtuoso88 6 months ago
at some level, it is conceivable that the jews were planted there.
hashpuppy101 6 months ago
Majority of muslims (appox. 1 Billion) are extremely poor and they live in Bangladesh, India (40% out of 1 billion), Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia and African countries for who the rich muslims (arabs) don't even care about!!
zomkhan 7 months ago
lol @6:00
Currently living in BC this was definitely a wtf moment...
frank0570618 7 months ago
When Mr. Aslan says that, "...before 1948, of course, there were tens of thousands of Jews living alongside their Arab neighbors without any problem at all..." he has NO IDEA what he's talking about. Israeli/palestinian conflict had been intense and sustained for decades by that point. I'm not saying which side is right or wrong. I'm merely saying Mr. Aslan is embarrassing himself and has no right to be discussing a complex topic for which he clearly has little context.
amw1978dc 7 months ago 2
Aslan just needs to stop talking. He'd be a great hair model, or maybe an eyeglasses sale model for Lenscrafters, but he should NEVER open his mouth. Tragic.
dantes731 7 months ago 2
1:43 Hammered every night? There's no better wording for this?
therabbiomchomsky 7 months ago
Azlan and Harris are both intelligent, they are definitely not perfect, but they are intelligent.
crazydreams95 7 months ago
aslan can get a little murky with his points, but i much prefer him to all the fundy pastors that hitchens debates
cdphatty 7 months ago
He REALLY likes the word "PROFOUND"
iansaidhi 7 months ago
@Cynicleese
True.
Sam still intellectually destroys both of them 2 on 1.
DarkOnyx 8 months ago 2
Hehehe, his argument seems to be, lets ignore the religious aspect of the conflict and pretend like it doesn't exist and it will go away
crystal clear reasoning there
faarsight 8 months ago
Hehehe, watching Reeza struggle with his own cognitive dissonance is asmusing
faarsight 8 months ago
@Cynicleese indeed, what an idiot...
Totaly taking sides lol.
Kawa856 8 months ago
they keep saying the tribes killing one another are not religiously motivated. they only formed their tribes based off of religious differences
kelbykross1 8 months ago
dorsk 188 misses the subtlety of Reza's point. The Palestine/Israel conflict is being mistakenly characterized as religious AND socio-politico-economic debates are frequently couched in religious language as a rhetorical tool. Solving the problem by banning religion makes as much sense as solving the problem of urban blight in the US by banning racial identifiers. It is natural that humans identify ourselves in smaller subgroups than 'the entire human race'. What next, white man?
Michaeldiamondmd 8 months ago
@Michaeldiamondmd Are you saying the conflict is exclusively social-political-economic? Religion enables the continuation of the conflict because of the number of people who believe it's bullshit REGARDLESS of whatever the conflicts actual root causes are. Human's identifying themselves in smaller subgroups and then hurting others out of loyalty to a given subgroup INSTEAD of having an overriding loyalty to humanity as a whole IS the problem, and religion (which IS bullshit) enables this.
JoshwithaJ 8 months ago
Aslan Wooped. :)
Lejfieg 8 months ago
Hey, it's Grant Shaud from the Murphy Brown-show!
sonykroket 9 months ago
uh... no conflict whatsoever before 1948, that is a claim that can be quickly verified for those interested. I have to believe that Aslan is not totally ignorant of pre-948 history in Palestine, so he is either quite forgetful (lol) or being dishonest to favor his argument. Clearly social, economic, and religious factors all have the potential to influence the dynamic. No need for mutual exclusion in the tenants of the argument.
Saxbyd 9 months ago
Sam Harris I'm afraid has missed the point over what drives people to engage in sectarian violence etc. It is not fundamentally about religion. The sectarian division which was deliberately stoked up by imperialism along the lines of religious differences is based on the fear of oppression as a minority/ geuine fears over living standards etc. The conflict amongst Shia and Sunni in Iraq or Catholic and Protestant is not about religion but over the material resources and prospects for people.
garymulsp 9 months ago
WoW Sam harris knows nothing comared to reza
ramo50ful 10 months ago
@ramo50ful Reza's continued talking and refusing to concede any points doesn't mean he's right. Sam Harris knows what he's talking about. Reza's arguments just sound good, unfortunately they're not grounded in reality.
senortonyful 9 months ago
Horrible, horrible moderator. Just a complete and total idiot.
mojacarben 10 months ago
@mojacarben No kidding. The moderator should shut the hell up. He has no reason making any points, making his opinion known, or entering the debate at all. Horrible, Horrible moderator.
senortonyful 9 months ago
I know tons of muslims, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM HATES THE JEWS. Reza Aslan could not be any more cynical about it.
giovanni9107 10 months ago
sam harris at his best:
'let's make it very, very simple then....'
Buddyvision2010 10 months ago
what a horrible moderator!
abbyrd 10 months ago
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When you hear Reza saying that Bin Laden's speeches are not religious at all, you can see a big liar in him......in fact, the biggest liar!!!! Mr.Reza, if that's the case, then why did Bin Laden ask the Americans to accept Islam? ......You big LIAR!!!!!!!
shikanja 10 months ago
Horrible decision to go to questions at that moment. Sam was making a good point and Reza was actually engaged in the conversation, rather than trying to dodge and demure.
Reza essentially conceded at the end, though. Sam: "Jewish/Muslim issue would be easier to resolve without religion." Reza: "If we talked about Israel/Palestine, rather than religion, it would be easier to solve." That's almost exactly what Sam said.
dorsk188 10 months ago 37
@dorsk188 You're mostly right, but Sam meant territory talks between Israel and Palestine under the exclusion of religion as a factor.
Reza's too retarded competently acclaim props to Sam for underlying the predominant religious aspect in that regional conflict.
=3
TAz69x 8 months ago
@dorsk188 no, Sam is making the point of Religon being the main instigator of violence in palestine. Whilst Reza makes the point that the fighting is just as much (if not more) a social problem opposed to a religous one.
bjl34565 7 months ago
@bjl34565 That was what Reza said in the beginning, but before the conversation was interrupted, he slipped closer to Sam's thesis. Given time, he probably would have agreed entirely. It takes about 10 minutes of honest conversation on a single point of disagreement for someone to change their position. We'll never know for sure, but I suspect Reza would have been unable to escape the reality at hand. Religion makes this issue substantially harder to solve. Any honest assessment shows it.
dorsk188 7 months ago
@dorsk188 yer true that, i've just read Reza's new Book "How to win a Cosmic war" (which is just a 180 page book on how religon is pretty much as blood thirsty as fascism) and i couldnt help but thinking the same thing, but you have to consider the fact that he is ultimatley defending a harder, and one that (I believe) he doesnt 100% agree with.
bjl34565 7 months ago
The point Reza's been hammering, which, unsurprisingly, evaded the vast majority of commentators, is that the roots of the conflicts are secular, terrestrial, almost pedestrian concerns. Only they are sometimes expressed and formulated using a religious vocabulary as to resonate with the masses; much like a patriotic speech, filled with galvanizing words, is more likely to appeal to the common man. It's not Jews vs Muslims; it's palestinians (or Arabs) vs Israelis. It's about a piece of land...
Elpistolero29 7 months ago
@Elpistolero29 You're correct, but only on a superficial level. Finkelstein, prominent critic of Israel, went to live with Lebanese families as an act of solidarity. Their initial reaction on learning he was a Jew was distrust, since it's been pounded into them dogmatically from birth, a criteria of eternal life. What other reason could you have for hating someone sharing your ideology? US support of Israel, including nuclear arms, comes from the religious myth of the wandering Jew.
gamerunknown 6 months ago
@Elpistolero29 I think that Harris would counter this comment by saying that these conflicts are exacerbated by religion. I don't think it's true that religion is merely there for framing; it's more powerful than that; it removes ambiguity before young minds have a chance to make up their own mind. Nevertheless, this is a good comment.
chapaev36 5 months ago
@dorsk188 That not what Harris said. Aslan asserted that if the real issue was addressed than the problem would be resolved. Harris was busy ignoring the question and taking science fiction. Religion exists, except the reality. Now provide real situations, otherwise your argument is irrelevant.
paradoxicalparabola 5 months ago
@paradoxicalparabola HIV doesn't really kill people, it only makes them more susceptible to other diseases, which kill them. Should doctors then say: "AIDS exists, accept it. Let's just try to find a perfect cure for every other possible infectious disease."? Of course not.
Encouraging the eradication of religion altogether IS a solution that would make the world better in a myriad of ways, like curing AIDS would make a patient healthier.
dorsk188 5 months ago
@paradoxicalparabola No one claims it would fix everything, but it is an actual policy we could take. Off the top of my head, we could eliminate automatic tax-exemption for churches and provide good comparative religion courses as part of basic education. There are very straightforward policies that would moderate religious influence in this country and abroad without something radical like prohibition. Just because you don't like the idea, doesn't mean it's not part of the solution.
dorsk188 5 months ago
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dorsk188 5 months ago
reza go fuck urself
hakalaprcko 11 months ago 3
from 00:22 onwards he completely missed what Sam was saying and reeled back his own perception of what was said. Religious people always do that in these videos...i suppose selective hearing is a necessity if your going to believe all of that claptrap!
DrAmorphos 11 months ago
I don't think Osama bin Laden would be attacking America if he subscribed to Jainism instead of Islam. On the other hand Reza Aslan has a point, that if it weren't for Israel, and other interventions the U.S. has bungled in the Middle East, Osama wouldn't be attacking us. I think that Sam Harris realizes that it's not just for religious reasons that people strap bombs to themselves.
However, explain to me how the practice of stoning and wearing of burkas aren't products of Islam.
Setzer 11 months ago
@Setzer Yes but America hasn't waged wars, nor undermined political aspirations of the Jainist world has it? The reason various Muslims HAVE radicalised, AND named the West as the enemy, is MAINLY because of these reasons.
I like to see how quickly Jainists would radicalise to save their adherents and to stop increasing meddling in their affairs, among other offences.
pretzalman 11 months ago
@pretzalman A violent Jainist is a paradox. If a Jainist practiced violence he/she would then not be a Jainist. Violence however is justified and supported by the Koran and the Bible as well. I already stated in my comment that American intervention is responsible for the blow-back we see today from the Muslim community. You cannot deny though that religious extremism exacerbates the problem to the point where it's impossible to reach the hearts and minds of the fanatics.
Setzer 11 months ago
@Setzer Partially correct my friend. The Qur'an specifies WHEN it is appropriate to carry out violence, overwhelmingly it is in self-defence. This can be examined historically as well, as Muslims were oppressed and fought against often in Arabia by non-Muslims at Islam's advent.
I never advocated religious extremism, frankly I find it disgusting. What I'm saying is that too often these terrorists are too soon written of as simply that, when the actual matter is several layers more deep.
pretzalman 11 months ago
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@pretzalman "these terrorists are too soon written of as simply that, when the actual matter is several layers more deep." I've already agreed with you on this point. I was just saying to pretend like the Qu'ran is a book about peace that's being misused by a few people is nonsense. Look the Qu'ran, the Bible they're both full of verses of violence and peace. There's so many contradictions because it's all bullshit.
Setzer 11 months ago
@pretzalman The thing you don't get is that there are NO circumstances when violence is appropriate.
Pretzalman, your views and those you have linked in your channel epitomise the issues Sam Harris so elegantly describes. Peace and Violence are incompatible, whether it's your religion, or your reading of the tealeaves that's telling you it's justified.
EvilRoySlad3 9 months ago
@EvilRoySlad3 I'm an Atheist. But I'm culturally Muslim.
And yes. There is. Violence in self defence is an unalienable right, to any human being. Muslims are told to act in defence, to act passively i.e. reacting, not aggressively i.e. acting.
Jihad of the sword is only for defence, against aggressors.
“Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors." Qur'an. Surah al-Baqarah: 190-193
Read the whole verse, it's illuminating.
pretzalman 9 months ago
@Setzer Secondly, Islam most certainly does NOT hold a monopoly on stoning. All the Semitic religions have mentioned them as punishments, Islam is definitely not the catalyst for stoning, it is ignorant to assert so.
The Burka is not prescribed in Islam, only the hijab is. All the others chador, niqab etc are cultural traditions kept often before the advent of Islam. The Burka holds its origins in, I think, Persia as a cultural garb of sorts.
pretzalman 11 months ago
@pretzalman Secondly, just because Islam does not hold a monopoly on stoning does not mean that it's not because of religion that they do it. Show me a secular country that accepts this as a suitable punishment for adultery. Please tell me why burkas are compulsory for women. It doesn't make any practical sense other than for the subjugation of women under a patriarchal society that is based on an intolerant religion.
Setzer 11 months ago
@Setzer Burkas are NOT compulsory, I refuted that claim in my previous comment, did you read it?
Secondly Islam was a great champion for women's rights in its time. It was the first to grant women unconditional rights (inheritance, ownership of buildings/ businesses, the right to deny marriage, the right to CHOOSE marriage etc).
I'm not denying many of the punishments laid in the Qur'an aren't dated, they are. It's simply unfair though to paint the religion as intolerant in such a bold stroke.
pretzalman 11 months ago
@Setzer
Go look up Sri Lanka and the "peaceful" religion of Buddhism. You're so wrong its unbelievable, I'm sorry to say.
I don't have any historical examples of violence expressed in Jainism but Buddhism isnt too far off
StigRossi 9 months ago
@~8:51 -
Sam: No No, The problem is so many people believe that it is.
Reza: are you one of those people who, Sam.
The short exchange, above, captures the shallowness of Sam's proposition - flat, contradictory, and ignorance packaged in pseudo-intellectualism
Yes, Sam is one of those people (who believe that the problems are grounded in religion) as shown throughout his arguments, in this and other debates.
myyou1 1 year ago
It's amazing how a nation can be engaged in three state terrorist/torture operations,Iraq,Afghanistan & Pakistan--all begun by Bush who told Fatah official Nabil Shaath that 'god told me to go fight terrorists in Afghanistan & to free Iraq from tyranny'--and how Isreal,the most brutally terroristic,racist state in the mid-east,run by a far-right fundamentalist military junta can be viewed as purely political in their aims but not Islam.
thirdshift47 1 year ago 4
@thirdshift47 Both USA and Israel get their fair share of criticism though. All we ever seem to talk about is "western imperialism". Almost every conversation about the blatant and systematic abuses perpetuated by Islam, as an institution and as individual motive, quickly descends into a conversation about the 'evil west', or a comparison with Christianity. This is a problem in itself. You can't justify one bad thing by comparing it to another. They don't magically cancel each other out.
Sinnessa 11 months ago
@Sinnessa
On another post i've described actions such as the recent killing of a christian Pakistani MP by Muslims for challenging the nation's blaspheny laws as nothing short of Fascist & blatanly criminal.But that's precisely what happens when you combine the most fundamentalist strains of the Abrahamic faiths with ultraconservatism:you get a strikingly antidemocratic cultural movement;and Islam is no different from 20th century radical protestantism in the US in this regard.
thirdshift47 11 months ago
Secondly,the reason so many talks regarding Islam descend into talk about the US & Isreal is because it's beyond ridiculous to suggest that with two nations--both currently engaged in policies uniquely destructive to Muslim populations--that it's somehow fair,or even sane,to speak about Islam's 'evils' in some kind of fantacyland vacuum where our gov't's policies are totally innocent in their implications on actually manufacturing right-wing militants.
thirdshift47 11 months ago
@thirdshift47 But we need to stop pretending the systematic execution of homosexuals and adulterers, the regular butchery of thieves, the customary scourging of lovers and drinkers, the routine murder or imprisonment of blasphemers and apostates, the hundreds of acid attacks against women who refuse arranged marriage, and the thousands of honour killings, every year, throughout the centuries, are anything to do with 9/11 or war, or imperialism, or western foreign policy.
Sinnessa 11 months ago
@Sinnessa
Those kinds of acts are obviously horrific,patent human rights abuses.But as i've stated earlier they're also the direct product of less democratically evolved regional cultures.That's not an excuse but only to say it's hardly an adequate reflection of the kind of highly sophisticated,'Jeffersonian' democratic uprisings happening in Muslim nations that are also notable for the huge role that women & other marginal groups have played in their vitality.
thirdshift47 11 months ago
@thirdshift47 No, they are the direct product of a long dead puppet master who still holds sway over so many peoples minds, people who believe their figurehead had a direct experience with the grand architect of the universe. This is a hereditory belief, evolved to be resistant against criticism and resistant to change - right now, in its most common strains, perpetuating an endless cycle of abuses.
Sinnessa 11 months ago
@Sinnessa
There's plenty of dead people holding sway over even the most independent minds.
Indeed,the economist John Maynard Keyenes once stated that,"Practical men,who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence,are usually the slaves of some defunct economist."
All conservative is by definition resistant to change.That's why it's called conservatism.To suggest that it's biological,though,is quite weird & scary.lol
thirdshift47 11 months ago
@thirdshift47 I'm not suggesting its biological. It was an analogy, obviously. Hereditory as in passed down, normally from parents to children, but broadly from generation to generation. Evolved as a cultural phenomenon and social construct, crafted as a mind virus and as a tool of psychological control by men with political aims, throughout history, a dogmatic ideology that both creates and survives on ignorance.
Sinnessa 11 months ago
You've just described religion in general.
We'll just disagree on Islam.Right now in America there labor class is getting its ass whupped,& it isn't Muslims & immigrant workers that are responsible;it's the rich & our political class that serves 'em.
So,atleast for me,times are too critical for me to be focusing my energy on something as counterrevolutionary as how to better reinforce divisions in society that can only serve to further entrench my own oppression.
thirdshift47 11 months ago
Sorry:
I meant to say,'THE labor class is...'
thirdshift47 11 months ago
@thirdshift47 ok
Sinnessa 11 months ago
@thirdshift47 Way to go using multiple usernames to say the exact same thing. Probably giving yourself a thumbs-up too.
m0ssadic 11 months ago
@thirdshift47 Your view of Israel being the most brutal is unjustified. I am not a proponent of Israel or the billions of foreign aid that the US sends them every year but your assertion that they are the most terroristic state in the middle east is idiotic at best and an outright lie at worst. The Israelis are not the ones who take women and children as human shields and blow up civilian buses. Israel makes an attempt to secure its safety against hostile neighbors on all sides.
MVT44 9 months ago
@MVT44 The view of Israel as brutal is actually completely uncontroversial, unless you think that international law is also "idiotic" (not an uncommon view in the West, I'll concede). No country has had more UN resolutions levelled against it for human rights abuses than Israel (over sixty). And the U.S. has vetoed dozens of these resolutions over the decades. The U.N. has also repeatedly made clear that the settlements are in violation of the Geneva Convention.
fromis111 9 months ago
@MVT44 What's more, look at Israel's 2009 "war" on Gaza, for which the U.N. rightly criticized Israel for war crimes and possible crimes against humanity and in which the IDF killed around 900 civilians (a third of which were children). About a dozen Israelis were killed. These are just a couple examples of Israel's complete disregard for international law and human life.
fromis111 9 months ago
The moderators of these talks are always biased against the atheists... it's just the way it goes, and it's probably a part of the sympathetic nonsense that Sam is trying to illuminate in the first place.
LeatherCladVegan 1 year ago
Reza = Snake Oil Salesman
Baadshahforever 1 year ago
Anyone calling Reza here an idiot is just highlighting their own paramount ignorance.
You may disagree with him, but the man is certainly not ignorant. He makes several interesting points and whether you agree with him or not, his questions are valid.
I do tend to side with Harris in this debate, however.
RJhasFLOW 1 year ago 2
@RJhasFLOW No, really. Reza is an idiot. Sure he is well travelled and has a position at a university, but thats just what makes his case so astonishing. He completely lacks the capacity to put issues into their proper contexts.
If you deny that islam or religion in general is a causal factor in all the violence we see in the middle east, then you are an idiot. You simply dont know what you are talking about.
spacecowboy95 1 year ago
@spacecowboy95 Oh, hey spacecowboy. I was watching this debate as well. How's the lawsuit coming?
JQisAwesome 1 year ago
@JQisAwesome Hey JQ, I think now would be a good time to let you know that im not an actual lawyer, I was just kidding, and even if I was there is no way in hell that I would advise you on your current legal troubles. I suggest you seek professional psychiatric help.
I honestly dont believe you when you tell me that your first sexual experience was touching your infant cousin when you were 19, so please dont contact me again telling me about it.
Best
spacecowboy95 1 year ago
This should really be titled :Reza Aslan and Moderator vs. Sam Harris Debate Part 03
AdamDLDixon 1 year ago
seems like the man on the right who was, i guess, umpiring (not sure what to call it) this debate was biased against sam. twice he stopped him from talking to firstly refute his claim and then secondly ending the debate and turning to the audience for questions. im surprised that Sam didnt say anything.
mellettolag 1 year ago
Ok, but all Reza is saying is that it is all misunderstanding, the real issue is not tackled etc.......but he's not explaining the issues either - as far as he is concerned things are all alright so 9/11, 7/11, beheadings etc are probably just another way of Islamic life?
I have muslim friends who have better understanding of the situation than this man.
prodigytechus 1 year ago
@prodigytechus
Even the 9/11 commission report cited the reasons for 9/11 which is the support of the apartheid state of Israel, support/ placing dictators in the middle east, US troops in their holy land etc... This is a known fact. You just dont know it cause the mass media hasnt told you this.
7/11 was a response to Iraq war dumbfuck. For what the British has been doing for the past 400 years in the Muslims world from colonialism to dividing and conquering 7/11 is nothing.
TrueNewz 1 year ago 4
@TrueNewz
Well, then anyone can say that for the unimaginable atrocities that Muslims committed on Hindus in India for 800 years - what USA, Israel, Russia, Britain are doing is nothing.
Do you like it now?
prodigytechus 1 year ago
@TrueNewz what was 7/11???
SHIBBYiPANDA 11 months ago
@TrueNewz
Well I guess according to your logic, Muslim humiliation death and suffering today is karma for their 1400 years of brutal Imperialism and slave trade. 7/11 has no grand excuse, there aren't enough excuses to go around for the Islamic suicide bombings that kill mostly other Muslims in Muslim dominated countries every day. Why the hell can't you people admit this religion is a problem?
Chinomareno 11 months ago 5
@TrueNewz You're a fucking retard
Deuterstomia 10 months ago
@Deuterstomia
What 7/11 was because of fucking Iraq you dumbfuck. The terrorist themselves said that fucking cocksucker.
TrueNewz 10 months ago
This Raza is an idiot, trying to cover up religious extremism. Crap, these muslim fools kill in the name of religion and this guy says religion is being exploited as language
srikargottipati 1 year ago
@srikargottipati I'd like you to prove that claim wrong, for my own edification, and, incidentally, yours.
ScottBrown666 1 year ago
Aslan's primary strategy in this debate was to direct incredulity towards Harris's knowledge of affairs in the Islamic world, and then barely offer an explanation, much less a rebuttal, to Harris's points.
psyquanta 1 year ago
he looks like an indian andy dick
alywilliams1985 1 year ago
Sam Harris is such an idiot. Sunnis do not consider shias as apostates. Why are atheists so stupid?
Wishingstarification 1 year ago
why is george lucas at this debate?
Mike28115 1 year ago
also i like this moderator
peamealbaconrules 1 year ago
in a lot of debates the religious side claims that their opponent misunderstands this and grossly simplifies that. Im just waiting to hear Harris say "no you don't understand islam". that would be cool
peamealbaconrules 1 year ago
@peamealbaconrules no that would be falling to their level and would be sort of childish. who would want to sound as pretentious and dismissive as reza? nobody :)
radscorpion8 1 year ago
I've watched hundreds of videos on similar subjects, and it seems that religion today is like a deer caught in headlights. For thousands of years, they've been coasting along, confident in their dominance and mind control of the masses. Now, all of a sudden, people are getting tired of it, and are daring to ask questions. As the number of skeptics increase, they realize that they have no defense of their superstition, and resort to backpedaling. They're losing control and don't know what to do.
Impalamark64 1 year ago
Israel, Palestine thought game that's not religious??? What is he talking about???
RayThaw 1 year ago
You cant give the Jews BC!!!!!!
amphitrike 1 year ago
@amphitrike i know! give them Quebec, no cares about that province.
kiddhitta 1 year ago
I really enjoyed listening to Reza Aslan, very informative. Too bad this video has been hijacked by Sam Harrison fanatics.
blackstars56 1 year ago
@blackstars56
If only you knew anything about Sam HARRIS...
Jabbowhaa 11 months ago
Reza, but Sams explanation explains why sunny are fighting shia in Iraq. The reason is religious. Nobody ever said that muslims don't fight wars also for other reasons.
bhigr 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
was actually quite impressed with reza islam; am a big fan of sam harris but he does a real injustice by pre-judging billions of christians and muslims by the actions of some.
smokingnome 1 year ago
was actually quite impressed with reza islam; am a big fan of sam harris but he does a great injustice by pre-judging billions of christians and muslims by the actions of some.
smokingnome 1 year ago
I would agree to some extent with Reza here ..that blaming religion only, is a bit oversimplification of the situation and a rather misleading one. Social and cultural context are as important.
astoma199 1 year ago
@setfreejr
Well said!
danrl1973 1 year ago
even Mel Gibson knows Israel is a jewish state. Reza Aslan is completely incompetent and time and time again he proves he knows absolutely nothing about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and continues to babble on desperately trying to sound intelligent against an actual intellectual like Sam Harris.
even the Kirsch's dumb ass gets caught in the crossfire a couple times making idiotic claims that reflect Aslan's moronic and uneducated world views.
DevrorveD 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
the host is just as dumb Aslan.
DevrorveD 1 year ago
What the fuck? 9:00 was just starting to get good and Kirsch ends it.
jambi999 1 year ago
I really find Jonathan Kirsch annoying. Is here there to debate Sam, or is he there to moderate? Let the debaters debate, and facilitate it, and keep your idiotic opinions to yourself for once.
Every time I've seen him I wind up just being annoyed with him the whole time.
dgumbrecht 1 year ago
@dgumbrecht I noticed that as well. Harris handles the circumstance well, though.
jambi999 1 year ago
Reza is such an idiot. Proof you can be educated, well travelled, and quite brilliant, and still sound like a moron when you open you rmouth. He makes me ill with his misunderstanding of what he claims to be an expert on.
rep300 1 year ago
@bigduj Really? 'Cause first Harris said it's a religious problem, but now it's a tribalism problem.
fandanstan 1 year ago
Holy shit Aslan is such a point dodger, forget for a moment that if Jews didn't have a religious identity then they would've calmed down and interbred and they wouldn't be so "separate," thus destroying the lines of division that encourage all of this violence in the first place.
jsteve2112 1 year ago
@bigduj Please give some examples.
yvranx 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Thumbs up if you are constantly tempted to skip over the parts when Reza Aslan opens his mouth.
logfio 1 year ago
Comment removed
gatogreensleeves 1 year ago
If spirits exist, 72 virgins exist, miracles exist, etc, then a fundamentally different ontological context inspires a fundamentally different ethical framework from those ontological propositions. Martyrdom is rational if you believe Allah exists. If they really believed that Allah does not actually exist as an independent supernatural agent and religion is merely a linguistic impetus, I guarantee you would only see as many suicide bombers as there are liberal Muslim suicide bombers: none!
gatogreensleeves 1 year ago
@gatogreensleeves When God doesn't exist Stalin exists, Genrich Yagoda exists, and 30 million Russians, 13 million Ukrainians exist not.
When Buddha does not exist, Pol Pot exists, but 2 million Cambodians exist not.
When a chosen 'god' exists to a übdemensch above the rest, the neighbors do not.
When remotes exist, a drugged man wearing a vest exists not.
rollingklouds 1 year ago
@rollingklouds All crusades in history and in the bible would be just as bad or worse, were the populations and technologies the same as they are today (and going percentage-wise, Yahweh beats them all by wiping out everyone but 1 family in a boat). Hitler, a Christian, killed many millions, doing "the Lord's work." Stalin, an atheist, killed at least twice as many, but his killing was not *in the name of atheism*, it was in the name of the State. An atheist is not a humanist by default.
gatogreensleeves 1 year ago
@rollingklouds It should be obvious to everyone (except, apparently theists) that just because 2 people disbelieve the same thing doesn't mean that they must believe in the same moral system. That's a non-sequitur. Atheism is merely a disbelief in the existence of a gods. This has nothing to do with ethics and morality except to people who believe, erroneously, that they are nece