Though i was sympathetic to the anarchist cause, research into the CNT and anarchist Catalonia has made me realize that anarchist rule was not all that great. There were extra judicial killings and outright murder, high unemployment, forced collectivization in the countryside, an 'anarchist' leadership leading central planning of the factories, closing down many smaller factories leading to unemployment. There were many problems with it,you can't let idealism close your eyes to historical fact.
What's wrong with worker control over hte means of production?
Some anarchists confessed to priests that they were anarchists, the priests told the fascists who were anarchists. What's wrong with killing these priests?
@cauchamar I've just read through some of your comments to other users; what an immature person you are. If you can't get on with people online, what makes you think that a society could remain classless for very long with people like you in it? Already you seem to think you're better than everyone here.
Interesting you classed 'vasgeorge' as a psychopath, because you seem to be the only narcissist I see commenting.
I don't think that was the quote, and even the actual quote (and the popular assumption about hunter-gatherer/anarchic life it led to) has since been thoroughly disproven by many researchers. Read Sahlins, for one.
@cauchamar Anarchism is one of the most fascinating ideologies out there, but likewise most insane. I know it is often misunderstood, but how do you possibly expect naturally greedy and self-serving individuals to live in harmony without any form of authority to guide them? How do you expect to achieve power without elections? Or believe individuals are naturally contempt to go without property or economic incentive? Entirely unpractical and Utopian, but fascinating nonetheless.
In the context of what we think of as civilization, I don't. But then civilization itself, as we know it, was created entirely as a means to satisfy greed and amass power over one's fellows. What people such as you forget, or never knew, is that prior to the advent of civilization/agriculture, all people were more or less anarchists. For a long, long time. So it's not really insane. Civilization is much more insane and is unsustainable.
Read your Sahlins, read Stanley Diamond, read Lewis Mumford. Read Fredy Perlman. Hell, read the Garden of Eden/Fall of Man story. What did you think that was about?
In other words, you're operating under the assumptions of the very evil I'm saying is doomed and is necessary to fight against. You seem to have done no study of anthropology. Society, civilization, agriculture, settled life, is the freak. It's the switch, it's the unsustainable, destructive force. The opposite is the rule. Men will die before they change, but they will die just the same. They'll destroy their own lives (as they have) and then habitat.
@MrEnlighteneddespot That people are naturally greedy and self-serving is one of the myths of capitalism, propaganda whose purpose is to make you believe that your enslavement to the financial elite is good and natural. It is capitalist society that teaches people to be greedy, greed is not a fundamental constant of human nature. Your assumptions that anarchism is unpractical are unfounded. If you would educate yourself you might change your mind. Google "An Anarchist FAQ"
And he also mentions in that book that his experiences, not just in the war but specifically amongst the anarchist society that prevailed there for a time, instilled in him forever after the belief that what he had previously never quite believed could really exist in the world, could indeed exist in the world. It confirmed him in his beliefs, showing him for the first time that it could really happen. So you tell me which passage takes precedence.
How does that make it illusory? Obviously that society, for that brief time, really was what it appeared to be, if the bourgeois and the rich (such as remained) were forced to play along to save their skins.
@cauchamar The elites, the 'masters of the universe' as they call themselves, will utilize all of their power and resources, to crush any uprising that aims to establish a free-society.
@LasagnaIsGood its not anarchism its anarchy , and there is no money in anarchy. learn what anarchy is before being such an idiot.... Money is a tool to rule and manipulate , nothing else...
@vasgeorge money is simply a faster and more efficient way to trade and barter. If you are against money, you are also against people trading with each other. How is that anarchy, when you are commanding people what to do and not do?
@LasagnaIsGood you are stupid and ignorant.Money is a useless piece of paper to manipulate morons like you.Can you eat money idiot?Anarchy is against money and any other manipulative tool. Educate yourself about anarchy.When did i command anyone you moron? In anarchy there is no money you ignorant...
@vasgeorge Money doesn't have to be paper.It can be anything.As long as its portable, and hard to counterfeit it can be used as money.If there was no money we would have to find out exactly what someone wanted just to trade with them (inefficient).
And i never said you were commanding me. I said in a hypothetical situation where someone like you banned money, it would be the opposite of anarchy because you initiated force.
Money is not a manipulative tool,and there is no conspiracy idiot
@LasagnaIsGood why to use money you moron?why not all people have everything for free?You are the one who forces us to use money while we can have everything free and abundant you stupid fascist.Money IS a manipulative tool,like laws,religions,politcs...etc.There is a conspiracy against humanity.You are probably the biggest idiot ever.... LOL :-P but enough time lost with you dumb and ignorant. Now go eat some fucking money...
@vasgeorge Everything for free?! How do we determine scarcity without a functioning supply demand economy? Why would people willingly break their backs to support others for nothing in return? And don't tell me everyone will chip in, that didn't happen in the soviet union and millions died as a result. You are the fascist here. Computer, ipads, books, medicine and everything else don't grow on trees. It takes hard work and dedication to produce them.
@LasagnaIsGood Also one more thing.. money and the free markets are natural and will come about by itself in "anarchy". You cannot stop it without force and that is exactly what you are proposing to do. You are trying to stamp voluntary exchange as a threat to justify your force.
@LasagnaIsGood you fucking moron,we can create abundance and have everything free with a resource based economy.Everything free for all,cooperation of humanity for the common good with the use of science and logic without money,barter,exchanges and shit,these are all stupid like you.The materials needed to make ipads do come from nature you ignorant.Money and free market in anarchy?xaxaxaxaxa,I really have no time more to lose with you moron.
@vasgeorge This just proves how insane you are. You see others voluntarily exchanging goods as an attack on you warranting death.
Resources come from nature, but it takes labor and intellectual creativity to extract the resources let alone create things out of them. We can sell these because our labor and creativity belong to us and no one else. You want to control other people based on your twisted morals, and turn them into slaves because no one will co-operate under your set of rules.
I am an anarchist. But an anarchist leader is a really disturbing contradiction. In anarchy there are no social lasses and no ruling class. Freedom and Liberty to ALL!
@royalstarfish17 "The form assumed by exploitation is mastership, which must not be confused with the leadership of earlier times, which did not involve any kind of exploitation. Mastership is leadership combined with exploitation." ~ oppenheimer, 'the idolotry of the state'
@vasgeorge 'While leaders use the power of attraction to convince people what to do, rulers use the power of authority to tell people what to do'. That should settle it. Anarchy is against all authority.
@Paspiedreamcast anarchy is against leadership AND rulership.... both are authorities. Actually there are no leaders nor rulers in essence.... people have been conditioned by govnts to believe in these things in order to be manipulated easier...
@africandude1 you clearly weren't paying attention to this video. Anarchy has even worked in Somalia for fifteen years, without chaos. Infact, Somalia ended up being one of the fastest improving African countries from 1991-2006. Research, ignorant!
@Paspiedreamcast Somalia? Really? You know Somalia is a hell hole right? Somalia is one of the worst examples of a stable country you could provide. Warlords and Pirates control parts of the country. Even without a centeral government, there are several factions controlling different parts of the places. And what happens when one Warlord or facion becomes most powerful and decides to take control?
Anarchy and chaos are not synonyms and are not even related concepts. You have clearly just watched the most recent Batman movie and (mis)taken a single throwaway line from a Christopher Nolan script for a class on political and economic organization. Google anarchism. Its wikipedia lede paragraph does a nifty job of explaining the basics. It's co-operative, non-hierarchical social and economic organization. No chaos at all.
@cauchamar educate yourself about anarchy ,not anarchism(the word anarchism is wrong). anarchy has nothing to do with money and politics.It's against these. Chaos just means unpredictability,nothing else. Anarchy and chaos are indeed related concepts.Everything is chaotic. Thats the beauty of it, that you cant predict anything,the unknown.Otherwise life would be meaningless.educate yourself
@cauchamar Anarchy is not chaos. Thats not what I meant. But because of the nature of man, anarchy, almost always RESULT in chaos. Anarchy, could only work in a perfect world. But because this is not a perfect world, and because of the nature of human beings, especially when it comes to power. True anarchy cannot work. The only anarchy is what there is between major changes in government form.
No, anarchy implies/entails no bosses. No rulers. It neither implies nor entails no leaders - natural leaders are what they are and will be what they will be, and their skills will be all the more useful and apt to made use of in an anarchist society. But they will not rule. They will help and they will inspire and they will lead, but only so far as anyone is willing, of his own accord, to follow.
@cauchamar [Leader = One who is in charge or in command of others].Is this anarchy moron? Anarchy means total freedom , no leadership ,no rulership. Help and inspiration are totally different things and have nothing to do with leadership. Please educate yourself.
Let's take a fictional character. Is Superman a leader? Obviously. Indisputably. He helps, he inspires. People turn to him and expect him to lead, and he obliges. But is Superman a RULER? Of course not. To fail to understand this distinction is to fail. But then reading the rest of your posts you're clearly a lunatic.
@cauchamar the fact that he/she helps others DOESNT make him/her leader nor ruler you MORON, i have already explained you that.Help and inspiration has NOTHING to do with leadership or rulership.But it seems you are too dumb to understand. A lot of time lost with morons here...:-P
You're a psychopath, nasty, and stupid. You are the exact opposite of everything the people in this video stood for. You could not be a more effective agent against the causes you claim to espouse if you tried.
@cauchamar See thats what I meean. Who is going to stop them from ruling? If a man gathers an army aand decides to establish a government, wh will stop him?
The people who would refuse to be gathered or governed. If push comes to shove, a bullet. Anarchists aren't necessarily pacifists. Spanish anarchists certainly weren't.
@cauchamar Problem is outside reactionary forces will try its best to crush anything like true anarchy! At least we know it is possible! I hope this sort of thing happen with in my life time!
Disturbing fact is there is a similar partisan hatred here in America that will have to be resolved. So far words, political posturing, and cultural chaos has acted as a relief valve concurrent with causation. A civil war in any country is bitter and destructive and while there are the inevitable winners and losers at the end, in Americas case I fear we'd lose our sovereignty. Anarchy cannot defend itself, it can only be absorbed into an existing construction. Democracies abide it tyrannies dont
Democracies abide it? The Nazis and Communists used force to crush the anarchists in Spain, but the British and Americans used lies and propaganda to do so. And there is nothing disturbing at all about there being partisan hatred, when the partisans are partisans of good on the one side, and evil on the other. Those forces are naturally antagonistic. If anything it is reassuring to know that the side of good still has any partisans.
@cauchamar Well I'd love to shuffle Orwell verses at you, however he isn't a flawless human being. And I am in no way going to speak for a deadman, and I'd suggest you do the same.
A classless society, a utopia, is impossible for our species. Our limitations are right under your nose in plain sight - and maybe that's why you can't see them. Because you take them for granted.
What are you even talking about? I never said or implied Orwell was flawless. You cited him back at me as if he were an absolute authority, so I returned to his text and cited him back. As for your senseless pessimism, it's just that. When speaking of man's limitations, speak only for yourself, please. And your last two sentences don't make sense. If I took man's limitations "for granted", I'd be agreeing with you. Obviously I think man has no such limitations.
Says otherwise than what? Do you know how English works? What did I claim or put forward about myself, that my supposedly being unable to have a discussion w/o becoming patronising or insulting belies? And what does that even mean, I'm self-refuting? Are you retarded? I'm being patronising towards you because you're an imbecile. I'm insulting you because you're an asshole. This will happen to you often in life if you don't improve; learn to roll with it.
@cauchamar Again, more insults, more patronising slurs. You are the evidence itself for why our species cannot in the longterm put forth that utopia of cooperation and a classless society. You just spit vitriol and diatribe at any discussion about the topic, and then make ad hominem attacks on the person you're debating with. You need to grow up, mate. And drop the attitude.
You argued disingenuously and incorrectly by misrepresenting something George Orwell said. I countered by citing other things he said that directly contradicted the things you had suggested he really believed, based on other things he'd said. To that point I had not attacked you. You then responded to my post by slamming me for worshipping Orwell as an infallible authority - when all I'd really done was respond to you on the subject of what he said/meant/believed.
@cauchamar glad to hear it. Judging by your recent perusals here on YT I'd have to say you're an undiscerning oaf unfit to assert any degree of literate opinion on matters clearly over your head. How's that for patisanship? Me good you bad simple simon.
Imagine what we could today, where manual labor could be made obsolete trough automation, in an anarcho-socialist society. Everyone could simply dedicate their time to their passion, do a job out of passion instead of the necessity to survive. It would bring about a new age of Enlightenment.
@Ditl2 perfect unity??? are u fkin mad? the communists destroyed the revolution in spain and torture and killed many anarchists and revolutionary socialists like POUM.
Communist party is not are never will be a real revolutonary movement it is authoritarian and an elite will eventually take power over everybody like history has shown over and fkin over
@panzerfausto Before making incorrect remarks such as that, you should first actually make concrete analysis and understand in FACT the Republican army was comprised of anarchists, communists, and socialists. The massacres you speak of where conducted by outside countries(Germany, Portugal, Italy, etc). I suggest you do some more reading and not just skim the top sentence of a work and actually analyze it. I once was like you, why organize to end organization?
@Ditl2 The republican government forced the anarchist militias into the popular army which was controlled by the communists ie the Soviet union so it wasn't a voluntary brotherhood of communists and anarchists like you want to put it. The soviet union was afraid of a popular revolution so the communist party in Spain was AGAINST the collectivization of the land and defended the bourgeois order and that my PATRONIZING mate is a fact;
@panzerfausto I suggest reading accounts from George Orwell, Sartre? I mean come on guy you cant possibly think that marxists were fighting with the anarchists..... I guess they found time when Catalonia was burnt to the ground....
@Ditl2 And you are telling me to read Orwell? in Homage to Catalonia he speaks of this fights in the streets of Barcelona and he explains very clearly the reason is the communist party taking power from the people.
You probably read Orwell edited by Stalin himself, try the original....
every spanish citizen should be proud for these unique historical moments!there is no other moment in human history(maybe with exception of the communa of 1871) in which the working class managed to built a free society based on true solidarity like it happened the first months of the spanish revolution!if the so called "land of the proletariat",russia,had helped the spanish rebels to win the war against facists the world would be now different!venceremos companeros!a friend from greece.....
@ploughat I`ve just watched your excellent short film.I`m very sad to learn Mr Kahn is no longer with us,I`m sure he was a fascinating man to meet.It`s thanks to the international Brigades memorial trust(and people like you) that the these heroes and their sacrifices will never be forgotten.
@ploughat I`ve been thinking about your interview with Mr Kahn.Have you more with him? the reason I ask is that the international brigades memorial trust collect such things,especially if he`s not been interviewed before.Their site has a email address.This stuff can be of real historical significance and the memory should be kept alive,especially as a mere handful are still living.I lecture on political history and know what historical value things like the interview can possess.Thanks again
Do not say that being free cannot work - logic would dictate that it is right to be free so therefore it is obvious that we are capable of being free - if you dont want to be free or make arguments against being free you are ill
hello! Individualist Anarchist here with a quick question for my Socio-Anarchist friends. This seems to be a pretty great system, but if I wanted to run things my way with the property I have worked to maintain, would you still accept me? This may mean a mint for my own currency or a business. Would you still hold freedom of association to be your moral standard?
@allwittynamestaken These Anarchists want hard working people to pay for their do-nothing life and their socialistic/communistic ways. Anarchists are nothing more then savages with no standards, no morals, no ethics, no values and no vision of the future except that of a so-called anarchist sitting in a shit-hole burned down city. Anarchists are nothing more then Hitlers and Nazi types pretending they want freedome, but only want power for themselves
@allwittynamestaken Never said they were, it's the way your mind works and how you process reality. Don't talk like anarchists are good, or that you are special in anyway because you're not. You're violent and when you've torn down every standard value and voice of reason in the world after murdering people like Hitler's in the street, you'll do exactly the same things you think you are fighting against, only worse. You'll turn this world into a dirty ghetto with no standards full of filth
@allwittynamestaken you see how your mind processes information? You have a seriously distorted view of reality. Firstly human being weren't meant to be totally free. When you are totally free to live a "do-nothing" life, with no morals, standards, ethics, education, or integrity you end up being a lazy loud mouthed slob and a punk, sitting around smoking pot, drinking all day and let your cities standards turn into a sewage heap. People need direction and guidance and most of all leadership
@diamonddust22 So you know what`s best for other people then? have you actually read any anarchist writers?(I`m betting not) Nowhere does it mention people the anti social BS you mention.People behave in that way becuse they are worker ants in the bosses world.Your points about guidance is simply fascism.Franco and Hitler said the same stuff,that they knew what was best for people.people are not children and your arrogance about what is best is astounding.I`ll take a guess-you`re religious?
@swfcocs1 If you really took a long hard reflection upon yourself, you'll find that it's you who is facist, as I know people like you just love calling everyone facist. It's your favorite word and you drop that word withing the first 30 seconds of you opening your yap. Secondly, do you know what's best for people? I know you think you do. It's people like you that hate progress, and the advancement of the human race. With you in charge you'd take our globe and plunge it into the dark ages.
@diamonddust22 Hmm,enron,JP morgan what shining examples of "progress" Give the bankers multi million pound bonuses whilst people starve,yet more "progress"Again with the standards and morals? who`s standards and morals exactly? you talk about guidance,what about those who reject your guidance? Answer; there`s coercion and we`re back to authoritarianism again! Apparently I`m lazy minded but your argument is circular,at least if you were religious you`d have fairy tales you justify your nonsense
@swfcocs1 I think you are just an under-achiever that thinks everyone should share in your own failings and miseries while you make others pay for the fact that you can do things on your own. If you can't self govern correctly in society without being a savage & a bully then you deserve to have someone do it for you. I grew up in poverty and lived on the streets for 4 years of my life and I realised that it's you that has to change and no one owes you anything, so stop thinking they do.
@diamonddust22 Actually I have the career I always wanted as I teach political history.if you made something of yourself from a bad start then you deserve respect which I give genuinely.Again,why the idea that libertarianism/anarchism means that somebody owes you something,it`s the exact opposite.With no bosses and ruling elite you have to "put in" to "get out".I think you`re confusing USSR style socialism with other types of leftish opinion.There`s as many left view types as types of capitalism
@swfcocs1 I think that is the best response i've heard. Look I am not into corporate greed, or corporate slavery, but i am also not into lazy under achievers who think the world owes them something because they are a self righteous prick with a smarmy martyrs attitude. Progress and the advancement of the human race will never change, it's a necessary evil. If some people want to live like hippies, hey more power to you.
@swfcocs1 Most left don't believe in this put in, get out. All they want is for others to hand hold them from cradle to grave and to have the government pay for their "do nothing" lives. I wish it were that easy for people to be able to self govern and not be so ignorant, but as i get older human beings have shown me just how savage, uncivilised, and unreasonable they truly are. Personally, there need to be a board, or commity that watch dogs these corporate bullies of greed.
@diamonddust22 Again with the "hippies" mindset.Anarchism demands that people put in to take out.It`s the very essense of the ideal.Humans can be all you say but humans can also be kind,caring and thoughful(I know you`re thinking "hippy" again ha! ha!)Nobody claims that changing society will be easy! Have you ever read any anarchist writers(eg Emma Goldman) I`m not trying to convert you(ha! ha!) but its hard to debate if you`re not read up on the subject.
@swfcoc Not reading your anarchistic handbooks does not make me "not up" on "things." In fact, I don't really have to rise up to anything. Human beings can be kind, and caring, we all know that jargon and those little feel good speeches. Bottom line is, if you are not contributing to society for the progress, advancment, and for the greater good of the earth and the human population as a whole, or the animal population then you don't deserve to take anything at all. No one should pay for you
@diamonddust22 For the 3rd or 4th time who`s asking anyone "to pay" for me or anyone else? I work,pay taxes and contribute like most other people.It rather depend on your definition of contributing.personally I had offers of far better paying jobs than my teaching role,but personally don`t judge people on wagepacket size(i`m not claiming a martyrs complex,just giving an example).The idea that you`ve nothing left to learn is strange as everyone has things to learn throughout their lives.
@swfcocs1 I didn't say I have nothing left to learn. Anarchists have shown who they really are with all of their violence. Look there was a time when big corporations and governments were scaled back and people had their freedoms, it's called the wild wild west. People murdered anyone who got in their way and took what they wanted, and that is just what happens when human beings dont have what they have now. Human beings can be trusted to monitor, or guide themselves.
@diamonddust22 you can`t judge all anarchists by the behaviour of some,just like you can`t judge all capitalists by the behaviour of JP morgan et al.It`s unfair on both counts.You`re claiming to understand anarchist policies whilst happily admitting you`ve read none and have no intention of doing so! You keep failing to state who should be in charge,who should "guide" the people.Situations like the Wild west have many causes.although you are right about the lawlessness.Anarchy isn`t lawlessness!
@swfcocs1 Everything looks great in a text book. You think because it's in a book that it works in real life? Too many people living out of text books in a 2 dimensional existence but as soon as you apply those writing to reality it all goes into the gutter. Bottom line is, the majority of human beings cannot be trusted to self govern and left to their own devices always destroy and become selfish, self absorbed sources of destruction. I'm not willing to play guinea pig nor is anyone else.
@diamonddust22 Anarchism actually worked for nearly 3 years in Catalonia until crushed by Franco`s fascist troops.productivity rose in industry and agriculture,and this in the 1930s.I`m obviously not using this as an example for the whole world,as times change,but simply as an example that it has been tried in the real world.You still seem to be sticking to the belief that people can take out what they want and not bother working,but that`s simply inaccurate.
@swfcocs1 I've never ever said that people can "take out" anything. I am saying that if you do not contribute and are not a productive part of society and you are able to do your part without being a lazy slob and an alcoholic, pot smoking criminal, the you get nothing. If you are a punk, you get nothing. In order to "Take Out" as you like to say, you need to work on your own self developement, and self improvement in life and if you don't, then too bad no one should take mercy on a coward.
@diamonddust22 In fact, self-development and realization of the life of the individual are absolutely crucial to anarchists, especially in relation to work. That is more than can be said for capitalism, in which the privileged have the monopoly on developing their talents, in which there is no truly democratic distribution of educational opportunity. Anarchists advocate individuals shaping and enriching themselves with more accuracy, more sharpness than capitalism allows.
@swfcocs civilised society is thousands and thousands of years old, 3 years is nothing even a drop in the bucket. Anarchists don't like progress, or the advancement and evolution of the human race. Anarchists have dark aged mentalities where they like to put a cap on the successes of over achievers and the hardest workers, because when you work harder then the rest, they make you look bad and Anarchists won't be having any of that. We were in medievil times already, it should stay in the past
@agapeiron I`m afraid if you read our previous debate,I`m afraid "diamonddust" proudly said he didn`t need to read any anarchist "pamphlets" as he could judge the theories of anarchism from watching kids in black breaking windows in TV!
@swfcocs1 Foiled by thsose pesky TV anarcho-kids again! Some of those anarkids that do that shit are Maoists and shit too. It's pretty bad press to have a bunch of kids doing anarchist role playing games and Halloween dress up drawing attention to one's political and philosophical ideal. At least in the days of the attentat, people knew that anarchism was working class and serious.
@agapeiron agreed but I am a little conflicted on the violence as I was fully involved in the poll tax riots here in the UK in 1990.It was different times though,with Thatcher a truly loathed enemy by all the "left".The media now can also portray it negatively so much more efficiently,and make less violence appear so much worse.In general then these kids give the bosses an easy PR win by destroying a McD`s(better than eating it I suppose ha! ha!)
@swfcocs1 Yes, I understand your point. I do not think even the most naive direct action that peters off into crude property destruction is wrong in principle, but rather at a time when the mood of those doing the acts are perceived as external and alien to the majority of the working class and oppressed people. Then the media can use it to reinforce establishment opinion. And of course violence is something that happens between people, not between a person and a McDonalds window.
@agapeiron Anarchist should walk away from society and go set up a world in a forest or a jungle and stop whining about everyone else. If you Anarchist don't like this form of society and it's not for you, leave. Pack your bags, and go build a Utopia somewhere and leave us all alone. Trust me, we won't miss you, and you won't miss us.
@diamonddust22 Why don't you capitalists leave society instead? Advanced technological societies were created by the labor of workers, blue collar and white collar. If you like capitalism so much, go travel to a different planet where every one agrees 100% to profit off each other. You won't be missed, and you will finally be able to start fresh on a utopia built entirely on voluntary private property. I will personally fund you to do so, message me and I'll give you my credit card number.
@agapeir Why don't Capitalists leave? Because Capitalists built it, that's why. Obviously, you and your fellow hippies don't like it here and are all martyrs that are so hard done by, you like it in a Capitalist world so you can cry and whine all the time with how much of a victim you are. Instead of leaving with all your Capitalist money, built by a capitalist society, with your capitalist job, you should have enough money to go build an Anarchist's Utopia, but instead you stay for attention
@diamonddust22 Where did I play a victim role? When did a capitalist ever actually build something and not just suck profits?
You are the one whining on an anarchist page like the typical Youtube conservative whiner. Moaning and howling about evil anarchists that you admitted you don't care to reason against. You are like an irrational Muslim whack job that I've seen whining about gay rights. You're a joke. Learn to make arguments or keep your whining mouth closed.
@agapeiron Conservative? Nope, just a guy that believes in hard work, good ethics and integrity where your actions are your signature and your word is your bond. Something you need to work on. I know you are just a whining cry baby, and a blubbering little boy with a do nothing life. Either work, make a difference or stop your crying. Hey I hear they have tissue on sale for your tears, the kind with the lotion in it.
@diamonddust22 "Nope, just a guy that believes in hard work, good ethics and integrity where your actions are your signature and your word is your bond."
Those beliefs are in perfect alignment with anarchism.
@aga You stay in a Capitalist Society, with your Capitalist Job, your Capitalist money, so you can play the victim role so you can play your role as being so hard done by. Since all you Anarchists don't like the society the "we" no "you" built, pack your bags. You should have enough Anarchists to buy an island in the forest where you can all be vegans, where you can plant your salads, pick your daisies and dance around the camp fire in the dirt with your mud huts and no technology. Grow up
@diamonddust22 Where did I say anything about veganism or any of that silly shit? You're confusing me with an eco-flake or primitivist you dumb cunt. You can't just hurl attacks at someone who doesn't advocate the positions you attack them for. That'd be like me calling you a Nazi or a wife beating chauvinist just because you have a hard on for capitalism and seem conservative.
@agapeiro I don't have a thing for capitalism nor am I conservative, but you've just shown that just under the surface you are violent and like most people like you, given the power and opportunity, you would rule by the end of a gun. At the drop of a hat you like to throw out that Nazi stuff don't you? Calling people Hitler just because you don't get your own way when you stamp your feet and puff out your chest. You have a lot of growing up to do kid. Hard work is the only answer. Be a man
@diamonddust22 How did I show I was violent? When did I call you Hitler? Don't you think you leap to conclusions and just blurt things out, like a crackhead? Do you just make up wild things to say because you actually have nothing to say?
Answer me this, and don't dodge it like a whining coward: do you think the industrial and agrarian anarchists of Catalonia did not believe in hard work?
@agape Those people that were the agrarian anarchists of Catalonia implemented that movement out of desperation and it was a movement that came out of oppresion and desperation. What they did in 3 years was the result of years of oppression and repressive conditions. They had no choice but to do what they did as of course the soviet slime balls were there to try and stick their rat noses into it. But YOU are not under those conditions at all, so stop comparing good people to a whiner like you
@diamonddust22 But do you think what they did in response to repressive conditions was wrong? Answer that, will you? If not, then what is your problem with anarchism? If you think they were good people, why did you show up here to scream in the first place?
It was not merely the result of years of oppression, but also of years of constructive activity, of solidarity and mutual aid. Empathy among peasants in the countryside and workers in the urban areas.
@agapeiron Firstly, what applied in 1936 does not apply now. Those were desperate times calling for desperate measures, and even with the system we have now, if something like that should happen, we as people would band together and help each other. People today, are not the same people as those of 1936 under those conditions. You are not them, and you are not under those conditions. In fact, you have nothing to complain about. You have freedom to do as you wish with your own free will.
@diamonddust22 "People today, are not the same people as those of 1936 under those conditions."
Agreed. With the rise of the welfare state and trade unionism, the lives of the majority of people in advanced industrial societies is better. But these advances have been won BECAUSE of workers' struggles, not just because capitalism makes itself better on its own. The opposition to capitalism that anarchists hold to as a matter of principle is not assuaged by a few social reforms.
@agapeiron The welfare state has been slowly repealed over the last 30 years. The link between labour struggle and such reforms overlooks, that all social reform granted, has occured when capitalist nation states want to expand troop numbers. It absorbs the worker further into the discourse of the nation state. The more modern function of the welfare state is more complex. Its repealed, but not to the extent that the issue of unemployment is (re)politicised.
@diamonddust22 "Those were desperate times calling for desperate measures, and even with the system we have now, if something like that should happen, we as people would band together and help each other."
What about white collar workers from the middle class from those times? There were doctors engineers that were anarchists and took part in workers' self-management, collectivization. Since they were not living under desperate conditions, does that mean they should not have participated?
@diamonddust22 "You have freedom to do as you wish with your own free will."
Yes-- And I see no reason why I should not use my free will to study history, philosophy, political theory, economics.. Which is what I do when I get home from work and have free time. What is wrong with that? Why do you keep saying I am complaining? Do you consider having a vision of a more just socio-economic order to be complaining?
@agapeiron I do if your vision includes living with a dark aged mentality and trying to apply archaic systems to modern issues and problems. Nothing wrong with what you study, as long as you are just living out of text books and not also studying "was is the real world" as opposed to "what was the real world."
@diamonddust22 I agree with you about archaic systems, but not the way you do, I think. Yes, the classical anarchist thinkers were basing their ideas on the real world in the 19th and early 20th century, nowadays there is the problem of having a clear analysis of the contemporary situation. What is more difficult is that the situation is different, say, in the US than it is in Eastern Europe or South America. Among modern issues, I would say technology and workers self-management are crucial.
"What all other men are is of the greatest importance to me. However independent I may imagine myself to be, however far removed I may appear from mundane considerations by my social status, I am enslaved to the misery of the meanest member of society" (Bakunin).
@agapeiron The only thing that is enslaving you, is your own way of thinking. You are a slave to your own thoughts and ideals. You seem to think have this romantic thing going on with Anarchism like it's some trend, or some fashion statement. When someone sings a song and they sing about love you want to believe them, you want to hear the sincerely in their voice. Well, when you tell me about anarchism, I want to hear that in you, but I don't. You sound more like some spoiled bookworm snot
@diamonddust22 I don't have a romantic thing for anarchism, though I do for democracy and cooperation between people, for firm principles and just deeds. But I don't think one can just romanticize and distort actual problems that arise from putting such ideas into practice, which is one of the reasons I am trying to learn more about economics and history so on, so that there are no blind spots, no elbow room for self-deception and so on. What are your thoughts and ideals?
@diamonddust22 "Well, when you tell me about anarchism, I want to hear that in you, but I don't."
My responses to you weren't me singing you a love song; I was annoyed to see another person howling against anarchists, and perhaps I was a bit rough. But you seem like a decent enough guy. There are all sorts of neo-fascists and right wing libertarian capitalist people lurking around on anarchist videos, sneering and gloating, and sometimes it's necessary to turn the hose of shit in reverse
@diamonddust22 I should add that I have at least addressed the things you have said. In return, you avoid answering any of the questions I ask you, avoid any argument or rational discussion. Immense indifference and dishonesty, endless self-absorption. You just keep attacking me, accusing me of comparing myself to the anarchists of Catalonia (where?) and trying to rev yourself up into a frenzy.
You're the one whining and getting emotional, so don't expect to be taken too seriously.
@agapeiron Stop comparing agrarian anarchists of Catalonia from the 1930's to you in this modern day, because you are not under those conditions at all and if you think you are, you are just a cry baby and a whining little kid. And stop using my line bitch. I know that when I respond to you, the only language you have, is what I give to you, you are nothing more then a little wimp who doesn't want to work for a living in your "do nothing" existence.
@diamonddust22 When did I compare my living situation to the conditions of the Catalonian anarchists? By the way, there were plenty of doctors, technicians among them also.
By the way, you haven't answered a single question I've asked you-- You just run and hide, and go straight for the ad hominem. What's more, you just make up stuff to attack me for. Then when I call you on it, you move onto the next delusion. Classic move of a coward with no ability to argue.
@agapeiron I don't need to answer any of your questions at all. Your techique of excessive interogative questioning is rather nothing I need to answer. I don't ask you questions, and you don't need to ask me any. Your annoying questioning is just typical of a socialist/communist punk. Oh, and I don't hide from anyone, if i did I wouldn't be here responding to you. So you can shove that bullshit in your anarchistic bowels. The only coward here is you. You have selective perception.
@diamonddust22 I like how I emphasized the necessity of work in regard to any conceivable vision of life and you keep accusing me of not wanting to work for a living. So let's get it straight: you've said I'm a vegan, you've said I don't want to work for a living, you've said I "throw out Nazi stuff" (?), you've said I compared myself to the Spanish workers. Where did I say these things?
Don't worry, you don't have to answer-- I know you won't anyways.
@agapeir Stop trying to compare yourself to people from a different culture, a different time, a different generation. Anarchism worked for them in their hour of need under extreme conditions and desperate times. You are not those people, you are not from that culture, and you don't live in those times, or under those conditions. You are a spoiled snot nosed brat with your face stuck in a book, living life out of a textbook. You talk too much and you do nothing in life while others do it all
@diamonddust22 Being a man entails free thinking. Hard work is noble, and the greatest thing there is for man to develop himself, to make use of all his talent. But capitalism, friend, does not allow all to develop themselves. It props up a tiny minority of sneering, privileged snobs. Those are the elitists you are protecting when you howl at anarchists-- Your beloved masters, those born into wealth, those who make non-labor incomes and subvert democracy.
@ag So you are saying that you can't develope yourself as a man because you live in a capitalist society? What a load of shit that is. I think you are just a miserable underachiever that is bitter. I was born into poverty and lived on the streets for 4 years of my life and other people had it way worse then me and went on to become so successful. You just have no balls, backbone, resolve, constitution, fortitute, or intelligence to overcome lifes challenges and opportunities. UR too Fragile
@diamonddust22 The challenges of life you are speaking of-- those that exist because of class society-- are not the challenges of life. Capitalism does not equal life. It is noble of you to take responsibility and firm resolve in such unfortunate situations, I am not arguing against that obviously, it is a fine thing and you should be proud. Where did I complain about my own situation? I am a moral person and am concerned with justice.
@diamonddust22 If you really took hard work seriously, then you must know that the reason we have an 8 hour day in the US is because of the sacrifices made in history. In Chicago the capitalist State sent the Haymarket anarchists off to be hanged for protesting for the rights of working men. If you do not appreciate their sacrifice, you are not a serious working person. If you sneer at anarchists, you are sneering at them, in which case you are a crony for the capitalists.
@diamonddust22 The idea of someone as petty as you irrationally howling against the Spanish anarchists, working men and women who lived by good honest work, who wanted a more just society and built one, only to have it crushed by fascism-- The idea of someone like you sneering here does is sickening, you should be ashamed you fucking scum.
@diamonddust22 As I said I only use Catalonia as an example that anarchism had been tried in the "real world",not as an example for all future situations.Again you`re pronouncing on what anarchist theories involve whilst admitting you`ve never read any theory.Do you not see the inherent contradiction with this position?
@swfcocs1 Indeed, there can be no models for future situations. But of course outside of Catalonia, Aragon, Graus, Alcora, Barcelona, etc. And then the more sustained libertarian socialism of the Kibbutzim in the earlier years, though they were less populous.
@agapeironYour point about the kibbutzim is well made.On Spain,I studied the war for my thesis and I disagreed with some of the Anarchists strategy regarding a regular army,although the Stalinists" handling" of the anarchists and the POUM ruined the revolutionary spirit essential to victory.Durruti was a great loss to the CNT/FAI at a crucial time.I do lean towards the argument that victory over franco should have been the priority rather than revolution,but I see the merits of revolution first!
@swfcocs1 I'd like to move in your direction to assess their strategy. I have begun studying the Spanish example only recently. At first I have been more interested in the constructive aspects in rural and industrial self-management. Once I familiarize myself more with the balance of forces and take in a more rigorous narrative of the events of the Civil War, I'll begin thinking about the actions of the CNT/FAI, Friends of Durruti, etc in regard to revolutionary strategy.
@agapeironIf you want THE narrative of the war then it`s "the battle for Spain" by Anthony Beevor.It`s1000 pages but he`s a brilliant writer(he also wrote THE narrative of the battle of Stalingrad) A smaller book is "the Spanish civil war" by P Preston.There`s also a film you must see-"land and freedom" by Ken Loach.A fellow Brit joins the POUM militia and witnesses the Stalinist repression.A look at the history of the POUM is useful to understand the militia`s.If you have any questions pls ask
@agapeiron N o problem.The Spanish civil war was a true tragedy.The irony is that the war was lost largely because of the Stalinists` sectarianism whilst Franco regarded all his opponents as "reds" and killed many thousands in summary executions.communists,socialists,anarchists,liberals,feminists,trade unionists,atheists,protestants all fell in the bastards firing squads.He somehow doesnt have the notoriety of Hitler and mussolini but he was certainly worse than Mussolini in terms of victims.
@swfcocs1 The shining colors of Stalinism came out in the Spanish revolution. Learning of the attempts at sabotaging the libertarian collectives by the Stalinists really hardened my dislike of Leninism in general. And to learn that one such case was done so under the name of the "Karl Marx Brigade."
for more info read: The Anarcho-Statists of Spain: An Historical, Economic, and Philosophical Analysis of Spanish Anarchism by Bryan Caplan.
Ares121288 1 day ago
Though i was sympathetic to the anarchist cause, research into the CNT and anarchist Catalonia has made me realize that anarchist rule was not all that great. There were extra judicial killings and outright murder, high unemployment, forced collectivization in the countryside, an 'anarchist' leadership leading central planning of the factories, closing down many smaller factories leading to unemployment. There were many problems with it,you can't let idealism close your eyes to historical fact.
Ares121288 1 day ago
@Ares121288
By how much did unemployment increase?
What's wrong with worker control over hte means of production?
Some anarchists confessed to priests that they were anarchists, the priests told the fascists who were anarchists. What's wrong with killing these priests?
pulsatingremedy 1 hour ago
People of today do not know true anarchy
WVlandnwater 4 days ago
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@cauchamar I've just read through some of your comments to other users; what an immature person you are. If you can't get on with people online, what makes you think that a society could remain classless for very long with people like you in it? Already you seem to think you're better than everyone here.
Interesting you classed 'vasgeorge' as a psychopath, because you seem to be the only narcissist I see commenting.
EllyMcCormack 1 week ago
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EllyMcCormack 1 week ago
'Life without authority is always nasty, brutish and short'- Thomas Hobbes.
MrEnlighteneddespot 2 weeks ago
@MrEnlighteneddespot
I don't think that was the quote, and even the actual quote (and the popular assumption about hunter-gatherer/anarchic life it led to) has since been thoroughly disproven by many researchers. Read Sahlins, for one.
cauchamar 1 week ago
@cauchamar Anarchism is one of the most fascinating ideologies out there, but likewise most insane. I know it is often misunderstood, but how do you possibly expect naturally greedy and self-serving individuals to live in harmony without any form of authority to guide them? How do you expect to achieve power without elections? Or believe individuals are naturally contempt to go without property or economic incentive? Entirely unpractical and Utopian, but fascinating nonetheless.
MrEnlighteneddespot 1 week ago
@MrEnlighteneddespot
In the context of what we think of as civilization, I don't. But then civilization itself, as we know it, was created entirely as a means to satisfy greed and amass power over one's fellows. What people such as you forget, or never knew, is that prior to the advent of civilization/agriculture, all people were more or less anarchists. For a long, long time. So it's not really insane. Civilization is much more insane and is unsustainable.
cauchamar 1 week ago
@MrEnlighteneddespot
Read your Sahlins, read Stanley Diamond, read Lewis Mumford. Read Fredy Perlman. Hell, read the Garden of Eden/Fall of Man story. What did you think that was about?
cauchamar 1 week ago
@MrEnlighteneddespot
In other words, you're operating under the assumptions of the very evil I'm saying is doomed and is necessary to fight against. You seem to have done no study of anthropology. Society, civilization, agriculture, settled life, is the freak. It's the switch, it's the unsustainable, destructive force. The opposite is the rule. Men will die before they change, but they will die just the same. They'll destroy their own lives (as they have) and then habitat.
cauchamar 1 week ago
@MrEnlighteneddespot That people are naturally greedy and self-serving is one of the myths of capitalism, propaganda whose purpose is to make you believe that your enslavement to the financial elite is good and natural. It is capitalist society that teaches people to be greedy, greed is not a fundamental constant of human nature. Your assumptions that anarchism is unpractical are unfounded. If you would educate yourself you might change your mind. Google "An Anarchist FAQ"
HamidKarzai 5 days ago
@EllyMcCormack
And he also mentions in that book that his experiences, not just in the war but specifically amongst the anarchist society that prevailed there for a time, instilled in him forever after the belief that what he had previously never quite believed could really exist in the world, could indeed exist in the world. It confirmed him in his beliefs, showing him for the first time that it could really happen. So you tell me which passage takes precedence.
cauchamar 2 weeks ago
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@EllyMcCormack
How does that make it illusory? Obviously that society, for that brief time, really was what it appeared to be, if the bourgeois and the rich (such as remained) were forced to play along to save their skins.
cauchamar 2 weeks ago
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cauchamar 2 weeks ago
What is the name of the symphony at 5:30?
Incognitoification1 2 weeks ago
@cauchamar The elites, the 'masters of the universe' as they call themselves, will utilize all of their power and resources, to crush any uprising that aims to establish a free-society.
Incognitoification1 2 weeks ago
how the fuck do you "ban" currency in an anarchism?
LasagnaIsGood 1 month ago
@LasagnaIsGood you fucking moron, uneducated...
vasgeorge 3 weeks ago
@LasagnaIsGood its not anarchism its anarchy , and there is no money in anarchy. learn what anarchy is before being such an idiot.... Money is a tool to rule and manipulate , nothing else...
vasgeorge 2 weeks ago
@vasgeorge money is simply a faster and more efficient way to trade and barter. If you are against money, you are also against people trading with each other. How is that anarchy, when you are commanding people what to do and not do?
LasagnaIsGood 2 weeks ago
@LasagnaIsGood you are stupid and ignorant.Money is a useless piece of paper to manipulate morons like you.Can you eat money idiot?Anarchy is against money and any other manipulative tool. Educate yourself about anarchy.When did i command anyone you moron? In anarchy there is no money you ignorant...
vasgeorge 2 weeks ago
@vasgeorge Money doesn't have to be paper.It can be anything.As long as its portable, and hard to counterfeit it can be used as money.If there was no money we would have to find out exactly what someone wanted just to trade with them (inefficient).
And i never said you were commanding me. I said in a hypothetical situation where someone like you banned money, it would be the opposite of anarchy because you initiated force.
Money is not a manipulative tool,and there is no conspiracy idiot
LasagnaIsGood 2 weeks ago
@LasagnaIsGood why to use money you moron?why not all people have everything for free?You are the one who forces us to use money while we can have everything free and abundant you stupid fascist.Money IS a manipulative tool,like laws,religions,politcs...etc.There is a conspiracy against humanity.You are probably the biggest idiot ever.... LOL :-P but enough time lost with you dumb and ignorant. Now go eat some fucking money...
vasgeorge 1 week ago
@vasgeorge Everything for free?! How do we determine scarcity without a functioning supply demand economy? Why would people willingly break their backs to support others for nothing in return? And don't tell me everyone will chip in, that didn't happen in the soviet union and millions died as a result. You are the fascist here. Computer, ipads, books, medicine and everything else don't grow on trees. It takes hard work and dedication to produce them.
You have already discredited yourself.Im done
LasagnaIsGood 1 week ago
@LasagnaIsGood Also one more thing.. money and the free markets are natural and will come about by itself in "anarchy". You cannot stop it without force and that is exactly what you are proposing to do. You are trying to stamp voluntary exchange as a threat to justify your force.
LasagnaIsGood 1 week ago
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vasgeorge 1 week ago
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vasgeorge 1 week ago
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vasgeorge 1 week ago
@LasagnaIsGood you fucking moron,we can create abundance and have everything free with a resource based economy.Everything free for all,cooperation of humanity for the common good with the use of science and logic without money,barter,exchanges and shit,these are all stupid like you.The materials needed to make ipads do come from nature you ignorant.Money and free market in anarchy?xaxaxaxaxa,I really have no time more to lose with you moron.
vasgeorge 1 week ago
@vasgeorge This just proves how insane you are. You see others voluntarily exchanging goods as an attack on you warranting death.
Resources come from nature, but it takes labor and intellectual creativity to extract the resources let alone create things out of them. We can sell these because our labor and creativity belong to us and no one else. You want to control other people based on your twisted morals, and turn them into slaves because no one will co-operate under your set of rules.
LasagnaIsGood 1 week ago
@LasagnaIsGood if you tried to force me to use money I'd cut your throat in pieces right away you stupid fascist....
vasgeorge 1 week ago
I am an anarchist. But an anarchist leader is a really disturbing contradiction. In anarchy there are no social lasses and no ruling class. Freedom and Liberty to ALL!
royalstarfish17 1 month ago 2
@royalstarfish17 "The form assumed by exploitation is mastership, which must not be confused with the leadership of earlier times, which did not involve any kind of exploitation. Mastership is leadership combined with exploitation." ~ oppenheimer, 'the idolotry of the state'
afaultytoaster 1 month ago
@royalstarfish17 you are correct...
vasgeorge 3 weeks ago
"anarchist leader"????? LOL, what a stupid contradiction??? anarchy is against leadership morons....
vasgeorge 1 month ago
@vasgeorge anarchy means NO RULERS. There is a difference between leaders and rulers.
Paspiedreamcast 3 weeks ago
@Paspiedreamcast anarchy also means NO leadership you moron, educate yourself idiot....
vasgeorge 3 weeks ago
@vasgeorge 'While leaders use the power of attraction to convince people what to do, rulers use the power of authority to tell people what to do'. That should settle it. Anarchy is against all authority.
Paspiedreamcast 3 weeks ago
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vasgeorge 3 weeks ago
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@Paspiedreamcast anarchy is against leadership AND rulership.... both are authorities. Actually there are no leaders nor rulers in essence.... people have been conditioned by govnts to believe in these things in order to be manipulated easier...
vasgeorge 3 weeks ago
@Paspiedreamcast Anarchy doesn't work, a population needs order to survive, anarchy, is chaos.
africandude1 3 weeks ago
@africandude1 you clearly weren't paying attention to this video. Anarchy has even worked in Somalia for fifteen years, without chaos. Infact, Somalia ended up being one of the fastest improving African countries from 1991-2006. Research, ignorant!
Paspiedreamcast 3 weeks ago
@Paspiedreamcast Somalia? Really? You know Somalia is a hell hole right? Somalia is one of the worst examples of a stable country you could provide. Warlords and Pirates control parts of the country. Even without a centeral government, there are several factions controlling different parts of the places. And what happens when one Warlord or facion becomes most powerful and decides to take control?
africandude1 3 weeks ago
@africandude1 if you're clearly not an anarchist why are you commenting on this video? :/
Paspiedreamcast 2 weeks ago
@africandude1
Anarchy and chaos are not synonyms and are not even related concepts. You have clearly just watched the most recent Batman movie and (mis)taken a single throwaway line from a Christopher Nolan script for a class on political and economic organization. Google anarchism. Its wikipedia lede paragraph does a nifty job of explaining the basics. It's co-operative, non-hierarchical social and economic organization. No chaos at all.
cauchamar 2 weeks ago
@cauchamar hey moron do you even know what chaos means?
vasgeorge 2 weeks ago
@cauchamar educate yourself about anarchy ,not anarchism(the word anarchism is wrong). anarchy has nothing to do with money and politics.It's against these. Chaos just means unpredictability,nothing else. Anarchy and chaos are indeed related concepts.Everything is chaotic. Thats the beauty of it, that you cant predict anything,the unknown.Otherwise life would be meaningless.educate yourself
vasgeorge 2 weeks ago
@cauchamar Anarchy is not chaos. Thats not what I meant. But because of the nature of man, anarchy, almost always RESULT in chaos. Anarchy, could only work in a perfect world. But because this is not a perfect world, and because of the nature of human beings, especially when it comes to power. True anarchy cannot work. The only anarchy is what there is between major changes in government form.
africandude1 2 weeks ago
@africandude1
The human species was anarchic for the vast majority of its existence to this point. It didn't result in chaos.
cauchamar 2 weeks ago
@vasgeorge
No, anarchy implies/entails no bosses. No rulers. It neither implies nor entails no leaders - natural leaders are what they are and will be what they will be, and their skills will be all the more useful and apt to made use of in an anarchist society. But they will not rule. They will help and they will inspire and they will lead, but only so far as anyone is willing, of his own accord, to follow.
cauchamar 2 weeks ago
@cauchamar [Leader = One who is in charge or in command of others].Is this anarchy moron? Anarchy means total freedom , no leadership ,no rulership. Help and inspiration are totally different things and have nothing to do with leadership. Please educate yourself.
vasgeorge 2 weeks ago
@vasgeorge
Let's take a fictional character. Is Superman a leader? Obviously. Indisputably. He helps, he inspires. People turn to him and expect him to lead, and he obliges. But is Superman a RULER? Of course not. To fail to understand this distinction is to fail. But then reading the rest of your posts you're clearly a lunatic.
cauchamar 2 weeks ago
@cauchamar the fact that he/she helps others DOESNT make him/her leader nor ruler you MORON, i have already explained you that.Help and inspiration has NOTHING to do with leadership or rulership.But it seems you are too dumb to understand. A lot of time lost with morons here...:-P
vasgeorge 1 week ago
@vasgeorge
You're a psychopath, nasty, and stupid. You are the exact opposite of everything the people in this video stood for. You could not be a more effective agent against the causes you claim to espouse if you tried.
cauchamar 1 week ago
@cauchamar See thats what I meean. Who is going to stop them from ruling? If a man gathers an army aand decides to establish a government, wh will stop him?
africandude1 2 weeks ago
@africandude1
The people who would refuse to be gathered or governed. If push comes to shove, a bullet. Anarchists aren't necessarily pacifists. Spanish anarchists certainly weren't.
cauchamar 2 weeks ago
@cauchamar Problem is outside reactionary forces will try its best to crush anything like true anarchy! At least we know it is possible! I hope this sort of thing happen with in my life time!
brownie1982ad 1 month ago
Disturbing fact is there is a similar partisan hatred here in America that will have to be resolved. So far words, political posturing, and cultural chaos has acted as a relief valve concurrent with causation. A civil war in any country is bitter and destructive and while there are the inevitable winners and losers at the end, in Americas case I fear we'd lose our sovereignty. Anarchy cannot defend itself, it can only be absorbed into an existing construction. Democracies abide it tyrannies dont
chickenwretch 2 months ago
@chickenwretch
Democracies abide it? The Nazis and Communists used force to crush the anarchists in Spain, but the British and Americans used lies and propaganda to do so. And there is nothing disturbing at all about there being partisan hatred, when the partisans are partisans of good on the one side, and evil on the other. Those forces are naturally antagonistic. If anything it is reassuring to know that the side of good still has any partisans.
cauchamar 2 weeks ago
@cauchamar Well I'd love to shuffle Orwell verses at you, however he isn't a flawless human being. And I am in no way going to speak for a deadman, and I'd suggest you do the same.
A classless society, a utopia, is impossible for our species. Our limitations are right under your nose in plain sight - and maybe that's why you can't see them. Because you take them for granted.
EllyMcCormack 2 weeks ago
@EllyMcCormack
What are you even talking about? I never said or implied Orwell was flawless. You cited him back at me as if he were an absolute authority, so I returned to his text and cited him back. As for your senseless pessimism, it's just that. When speaking of man's limitations, speak only for yourself, please. And your last two sentences don't make sense. If I took man's limitations "for granted", I'd be agreeing with you. Obviously I think man has no such limitations.
cauchamar 2 weeks ago
@cauchamar I think the fact that you cannot have a discussion without becoming patronising or insulting says otherwise. You're self-refuting.
EllyMcCormack 2 weeks ago
@EllyMcCormack
Says otherwise than what? Do you know how English works? What did I claim or put forward about myself, that my supposedly being unable to have a discussion w/o becoming patronising or insulting belies? And what does that even mean, I'm self-refuting? Are you retarded? I'm being patronising towards you because you're an imbecile. I'm insulting you because you're an asshole. This will happen to you often in life if you don't improve; learn to roll with it.
cauchamar 1 week ago
@cauchamar Again, more insults, more patronising slurs. You are the evidence itself for why our species cannot in the longterm put forth that utopia of cooperation and a classless society. You just spit vitriol and diatribe at any discussion about the topic, and then make ad hominem attacks on the person you're debating with. You need to grow up, mate. And drop the attitude.
EllyMcCormack 1 week ago
@EllyMcCormack
You argued disingenuously and incorrectly by misrepresenting something George Orwell said. I countered by citing other things he said that directly contradicted the things you had suggested he really believed, based on other things he'd said. To that point I had not attacked you. You then responded to my post by slamming me for worshipping Orwell as an infallible authority - when all I'd really done was respond to you on the subject of what he said/meant/believed.
cauchamar 1 week ago
@cauchamar glad to hear it. Judging by your recent perusals here on YT I'd have to say you're an undiscerning oaf unfit to assert any degree of literate opinion on matters clearly over your head. How's that for patisanship? Me good you bad simple simon.
chickenwretch 2 weeks ago
@chickenwretch
They rejected my thesis after they saw I'd been watching cat vs squirrel videos on youtube.
cauchamar 2 weeks ago
The truth is that it wasn't a civil war. It was a coup d'état. Militars against civil population.
angyliv 2 months ago
Imagine what we could today, where manual labor could be made obsolete trough automation, in an anarcho-socialist society. Everyone could simply dedicate their time to their passion, do a job out of passion instead of the necessity to survive. It would bring about a new age of Enlightenment.
SSTTEEAALLTTHH 2 months ago 2
@cauchamar I couldn't agree more.
HorrorHiro 3 months ago
Catalonia never was Spain!
nu0am0nimic 3 months ago
@nu0am0nimic that's right, was Morocco.
elmaximoexponenteeee 3 months ago
you could leave your door unlocked in the days
Swaggs303 4 months ago
I have never seen a region more left than Catalonia and specially Barcelona.
pitelis 4 months ago 2
We must get more people out onto the streets protesting for Anarchy - Please share and support the video below to get more people
protesting to be free.
v=i2TpdRJ9gBE
godkingofthepunks 5 months ago
This was the perfect unity of revolution: anarchists, socialists, and communists the ultimate power of the proletariat..
Ditl2 5 months ago
@Ditl2 perfect unity??? are u fkin mad? the communists destroyed the revolution in spain and torture and killed many anarchists and revolutionary socialists like POUM.
Communist party is not are never will be a real revolutonary movement it is authoritarian and an elite will eventually take power over everybody like history has shown over and fkin over
Salud y (A)
panzerfausto 5 months ago
@panzerfausto Before making incorrect remarks such as that, you should first actually make concrete analysis and understand in FACT the Republican army was comprised of anarchists, communists, and socialists. The massacres you speak of where conducted by outside countries(Germany, Portugal, Italy, etc). I suggest you do some more reading and not just skim the top sentence of a work and actually analyze it. I once was like you, why organize to end organization?
Ditl2 5 months ago
@Ditl2 The republican government forced the anarchist militias into the popular army which was controlled by the communists ie the Soviet union so it wasn't a voluntary brotherhood of communists and anarchists like you want to put it. The soviet union was afraid of a popular revolution so the communist party in Spain was AGAINST the collectivization of the land and defended the bourgeois order and that my PATRONIZING mate is a fact;
panzerfausto 5 months ago 4
@panzerfausto I suggest reading accounts from George Orwell, Sartre? I mean come on guy you cant possibly think that marxists were fighting with the anarchists..... I guess they found time when Catalonia was burnt to the ground....
Ditl2 5 months ago
@Ditl2 And you are telling me to read Orwell? in Homage to Catalonia he speaks of this fights in the streets of Barcelona and he explains very clearly the reason is the communist party taking power from the people.
You probably read Orwell edited by Stalin himself, try the original....
panzerfausto 5 months ago
There is some HISTORY that is so interestin' and well worth the time to learn of this,....on mainstream media, nope, nothin'!
qualqui 5 months ago
every spanish citizen should be proud for these unique historical moments!there is no other moment in human history(maybe with exception of the communa of 1871) in which the working class managed to built a free society based on true solidarity like it happened the first months of the spanish revolution!if the so called "land of the proletariat",russia,had helped the spanish rebels to win the war against facists the world would be now different!venceremos companeros!a friend from greece.....
21alexaek 6 months ago 2
As a budding journalist I made a short film about Joseph Kahn, who sadly no longer with us.
He was one of the few surviving British volunteers who fought in the Spanish Civil War.
Joseph was 18 when he volunteered to lead a convoy of ambulances from Camden Town to Madrid.
He arrived and went on to Albacete, where he joined the newly formed British Battalion.
If you are interested, then you can watch the film at my channel.
ploughat 7 months ago
@ploughat I`ve just watched your excellent short film.I`m very sad to learn Mr Kahn is no longer with us,I`m sure he was a fascinating man to meet.It`s thanks to the international Brigades memorial trust(and people like you) that the these heroes and their sacrifices will never be forgotten.
No pasaran!
swfcocs1 7 months ago
@ploughat I`ve been thinking about your interview with Mr Kahn.Have you more with him? the reason I ask is that the international brigades memorial trust collect such things,especially if he`s not been interviewed before.Their site has a email address.This stuff can be of real historical significance and the memory should be kept alive,especially as a mere handful are still living.I lecture on political history and know what historical value things like the interview can possess.Thanks again
swfcocs1 6 months ago
Class War (-A-)
godkingofthepunks 7 months ago
Class War (-A-)
godkingofthepunks 7 months ago
The argument for Anarchy has literally come down to weather we should be free or not !!
godkingofthepunks 7 months ago
@godkingofthepunks yes, but none of us can be free until we are all equal.
jayBredd 7 months ago
Do not say that being free cannot work - logic would dictate that it is right to be free so therefore it is obvious that we are capable of being free - if you dont want to be free or make arguments against being free you are ill
godkingofthepunks 7 months ago
hello! Individualist Anarchist here with a quick question for my Socio-Anarchist friends. This seems to be a pretty great system, but if I wanted to run things my way with the property I have worked to maintain, would you still accept me? This may mean a mint for my own currency or a business. Would you still hold freedom of association to be your moral standard?
allwittynamestaken 7 months ago
@allwittynamestaken These Anarchists want hard working people to pay for their do-nothing life and their socialistic/communistic ways. Anarchists are nothing more then savages with no standards, no morals, no ethics, no values and no vision of the future except that of a so-called anarchist sitting in a shit-hole burned down city. Anarchists are nothing more then Hitlers and Nazi types pretending they want freedome, but only want power for themselves
diamonddust22 7 months ago
@diamonddust22 regarding the second sentence onwards, Anarchists aren't Nihilists....
allwittynamestaken 7 months ago
@allwittynamestaken Never said they were, it's the way your mind works and how you process reality. Don't talk like anarchists are good, or that you are special in anyway because you're not. You're violent and when you've torn down every standard value and voice of reason in the world after murdering people like Hitler's in the street, you'll do exactly the same things you think you are fighting against, only worse. You'll turn this world into a dirty ghetto with no standards full of filth
diamonddust22 7 months ago
@diamonddust22 so what your saying is that without someone telling you what to do you would rape and pillage?
allwittynamestaken 7 months ago
@allwittynamestaken you see how your mind processes information? You have a seriously distorted view of reality. Firstly human being weren't meant to be totally free. When you are totally free to live a "do-nothing" life, with no morals, standards, ethics, education, or integrity you end up being a lazy loud mouthed slob and a punk, sitting around smoking pot, drinking all day and let your cities standards turn into a sewage heap. People need direction and guidance and most of all leadership
diamonddust22 7 months ago
@diamonddust22 Thats is true all except for the pot part.
zrah1092 7 months ago
@zrah1092 lol, you're awesome
diamonddust22 7 months ago
@diamonddust22 So you know what`s best for other people then? have you actually read any anarchist writers?(I`m betting not) Nowhere does it mention people the anti social BS you mention.People behave in that way becuse they are worker ants in the bosses world.Your points about guidance is simply fascism.Franco and Hitler said the same stuff,that they knew what was best for people.people are not children and your arrogance about what is best is astounding.I`ll take a guess-you`re religious?
swfcocs1 7 months ago
@swfcocs1 If you really took a long hard reflection upon yourself, you'll find that it's you who is facist, as I know people like you just love calling everyone facist. It's your favorite word and you drop that word withing the first 30 seconds of you opening your yap. Secondly, do you know what's best for people? I know you think you do. It's people like you that hate progress, and the advancement of the human race. With you in charge you'd take our globe and plunge it into the dark ages.
diamonddust22 7 months ago
@diamonddust22 Hmm,enron,JP morgan what shining examples of "progress" Give the bankers multi million pound bonuses whilst people starve,yet more "progress"Again with the standards and morals? who`s standards and morals exactly? you talk about guidance,what about those who reject your guidance? Answer; there`s coercion and we`re back to authoritarianism again! Apparently I`m lazy minded but your argument is circular,at least if you were religious you`d have fairy tales you justify your nonsense
swfcocs1 7 months ago
@swfcocs1 I think you are just an under-achiever that thinks everyone should share in your own failings and miseries while you make others pay for the fact that you can do things on your own. If you can't self govern correctly in society without being a savage & a bully then you deserve to have someone do it for you. I grew up in poverty and lived on the streets for 4 years of my life and I realised that it's you that has to change and no one owes you anything, so stop thinking they do.
diamonddust22 7 months ago
@diamonddust22 Actually I have the career I always wanted as I teach political history.if you made something of yourself from a bad start then you deserve respect which I give genuinely.Again,why the idea that libertarianism/anarchism means that somebody owes you something,it`s the exact opposite.With no bosses and ruling elite you have to "put in" to "get out".I think you`re confusing USSR style socialism with other types of leftish opinion.There`s as many left view types as types of capitalism
swfcocs1 7 months ago
@swfcocs1 I think that is the best response i've heard. Look I am not into corporate greed, or corporate slavery, but i am also not into lazy under achievers who think the world owes them something because they are a self righteous prick with a smarmy martyrs attitude. Progress and the advancement of the human race will never change, it's a necessary evil. If some people want to live like hippies, hey more power to you.
diamonddust22 7 months ago
@swfcocs1 Most left don't believe in this put in, get out. All they want is for others to hand hold them from cradle to grave and to have the government pay for their "do nothing" lives. I wish it were that easy for people to be able to self govern and not be so ignorant, but as i get older human beings have shown me just how savage, uncivilised, and unreasonable they truly are. Personally, there need to be a board, or commity that watch dogs these corporate bullies of greed.
diamonddust22 7 months ago
@diamonddust22 Again with the "hippies" mindset.Anarchism demands that people put in to take out.It`s the very essense of the ideal.Humans can be all you say but humans can also be kind,caring and thoughful(I know you`re thinking "hippy" again ha! ha!)Nobody claims that changing society will be easy! Have you ever read any anarchist writers(eg Emma Goldman) I`m not trying to convert you(ha! ha!) but its hard to debate if you`re not read up on the subject.
swfcocs1 7 months ago
@swfcoc Not reading your anarchistic handbooks does not make me "not up" on "things." In fact, I don't really have to rise up to anything. Human beings can be kind, and caring, we all know that jargon and those little feel good speeches. Bottom line is, if you are not contributing to society for the progress, advancment, and for the greater good of the earth and the human population as a whole, or the animal population then you don't deserve to take anything at all. No one should pay for you
diamonddust22 7 months ago
@diamonddust22 For the 3rd or 4th time who`s asking anyone "to pay" for me or anyone else? I work,pay taxes and contribute like most other people.It rather depend on your definition of contributing.personally I had offers of far better paying jobs than my teaching role,but personally don`t judge people on wagepacket size(i`m not claiming a martyrs complex,just giving an example).The idea that you`ve nothing left to learn is strange as everyone has things to learn throughout their lives.
swfcocs1 7 months ago
@swfcocs1 I didn't say I have nothing left to learn. Anarchists have shown who they really are with all of their violence. Look there was a time when big corporations and governments were scaled back and people had their freedoms, it's called the wild wild west. People murdered anyone who got in their way and took what they wanted, and that is just what happens when human beings dont have what they have now. Human beings can be trusted to monitor, or guide themselves.
diamonddust22 7 months ago
@diamonddust22 you can`t judge all anarchists by the behaviour of some,just like you can`t judge all capitalists by the behaviour of JP morgan et al.It`s unfair on both counts.You`re claiming to understand anarchist policies whilst happily admitting you`ve read none and have no intention of doing so! You keep failing to state who should be in charge,who should "guide" the people.Situations like the Wild west have many causes.although you are right about the lawlessness.Anarchy isn`t lawlessness!
swfcocs1 7 months ago
@swfcocs1 Everything looks great in a text book. You think because it's in a book that it works in real life? Too many people living out of text books in a 2 dimensional existence but as soon as you apply those writing to reality it all goes into the gutter. Bottom line is, the majority of human beings cannot be trusted to self govern and left to their own devices always destroy and become selfish, self absorbed sources of destruction. I'm not willing to play guinea pig nor is anyone else.
diamonddust22 7 months ago
@diamonddust22 Anarchism actually worked for nearly 3 years in Catalonia until crushed by Franco`s fascist troops.productivity rose in industry and agriculture,and this in the 1930s.I`m obviously not using this as an example for the whole world,as times change,but simply as an example that it has been tried in the real world.You still seem to be sticking to the belief that people can take out what they want and not bother working,but that`s simply inaccurate.
swfcocs1 6 months ago
@swfcocs1 I've never ever said that people can "take out" anything. I am saying that if you do not contribute and are not a productive part of society and you are able to do your part without being a lazy slob and an alcoholic, pot smoking criminal, the you get nothing. If you are a punk, you get nothing. In order to "Take Out" as you like to say, you need to work on your own self developement, and self improvement in life and if you don't, then too bad no one should take mercy on a coward.
diamonddust22 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 In fact, self-development and realization of the life of the individual are absolutely crucial to anarchists, especially in relation to work. That is more than can be said for capitalism, in which the privileged have the monopoly on developing their talents, in which there is no truly democratic distribution of educational opportunity. Anarchists advocate individuals shaping and enriching themselves with more accuracy, more sharpness than capitalism allows.
agapeiron 6 months ago
@swfcocs civilised society is thousands and thousands of years old, 3 years is nothing even a drop in the bucket. Anarchists don't like progress, or the advancement and evolution of the human race. Anarchists have dark aged mentalities where they like to put a cap on the successes of over achievers and the hardest workers, because when you work harder then the rest, they make you look bad and Anarchists won't be having any of that. We were in medievil times already, it should stay in the past
diamonddust22 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 "Anarchists don't like progress, or the advancement and evolution of the human race."
What classical anarchist thinkers argued against the advancement of the human race? What anarchist thinkers have you read?
agapeiron 6 months ago
@agapeiron I`m afraid if you read our previous debate,I`m afraid "diamonddust" proudly said he didn`t need to read any anarchist "pamphlets" as he could judge the theories of anarchism from watching kids in black breaking windows in TV!
swfcocs1 6 months ago
@swfcocs1 Foiled by thsose pesky TV anarcho-kids again! Some of those anarkids that do that shit are Maoists and shit too. It's pretty bad press to have a bunch of kids doing anarchist role playing games and Halloween dress up drawing attention to one's political and philosophical ideal. At least in the days of the attentat, people knew that anarchism was working class and serious.
agapeiron 6 months ago
@agapeiron agreed but I am a little conflicted on the violence as I was fully involved in the poll tax riots here in the UK in 1990.It was different times though,with Thatcher a truly loathed enemy by all the "left".The media now can also portray it negatively so much more efficiently,and make less violence appear so much worse.In general then these kids give the bosses an easy PR win by destroying a McD`s(better than eating it I suppose ha! ha!)
swfcocs1 6 months ago
@swfcocs1 Yes, I understand your point. I do not think even the most naive direct action that peters off into crude property destruction is wrong in principle, but rather at a time when the mood of those doing the acts are perceived as external and alien to the majority of the working class and oppressed people. Then the media can use it to reinforce establishment opinion. And of course violence is something that happens between people, not between a person and a McDonalds window.
agapeiron 6 months ago
@agapeiron Anarchist should walk away from society and go set up a world in a forest or a jungle and stop whining about everyone else. If you Anarchist don't like this form of society and it's not for you, leave. Pack your bags, and go build a Utopia somewhere and leave us all alone. Trust me, we won't miss you, and you won't miss us.
diamonddust22 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 Why don't you capitalists leave society instead? Advanced technological societies were created by the labor of workers, blue collar and white collar. If you like capitalism so much, go travel to a different planet where every one agrees 100% to profit off each other. You won't be missed, and you will finally be able to start fresh on a utopia built entirely on voluntary private property. I will personally fund you to do so, message me and I'll give you my credit card number.
agapeiron 6 months ago
@agapeir Why don't Capitalists leave? Because Capitalists built it, that's why. Obviously, you and your fellow hippies don't like it here and are all martyrs that are so hard done by, you like it in a Capitalist world so you can cry and whine all the time with how much of a victim you are. Instead of leaving with all your Capitalist money, built by a capitalist society, with your capitalist job, you should have enough money to go build an Anarchist's Utopia, but instead you stay for attention
diamonddust22 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 Where did I play a victim role? When did a capitalist ever actually build something and not just suck profits?
You are the one whining on an anarchist page like the typical Youtube conservative whiner. Moaning and howling about evil anarchists that you admitted you don't care to reason against. You are like an irrational Muslim whack job that I've seen whining about gay rights. You're a joke. Learn to make arguments or keep your whining mouth closed.
agapeiron 6 months ago
@agapeiron Conservative? Nope, just a guy that believes in hard work, good ethics and integrity where your actions are your signature and your word is your bond. Something you need to work on. I know you are just a whining cry baby, and a blubbering little boy with a do nothing life. Either work, make a difference or stop your crying. Hey I hear they have tissue on sale for your tears, the kind with the lotion in it.
diamonddust22 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 "Nope, just a guy that believes in hard work, good ethics and integrity where your actions are your signature and your word is your bond."
Those beliefs are in perfect alignment with anarchism.
agapeiron 6 months ago
@aga You stay in a Capitalist Society, with your Capitalist Job, your Capitalist money, so you can play the victim role so you can play your role as being so hard done by. Since all you Anarchists don't like the society the "we" no "you" built, pack your bags. You should have enough Anarchists to buy an island in the forest where you can all be vegans, where you can plant your salads, pick your daisies and dance around the camp fire in the dirt with your mud huts and no technology. Grow up
diamonddust22 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 Where did I say anything about veganism or any of that silly shit? You're confusing me with an eco-flake or primitivist you dumb cunt. You can't just hurl attacks at someone who doesn't advocate the positions you attack them for. That'd be like me calling you a Nazi or a wife beating chauvinist just because you have a hard on for capitalism and seem conservative.
agapeiron 6 months ago
@agapeiro I don't have a thing for capitalism nor am I conservative, but you've just shown that just under the surface you are violent and like most people like you, given the power and opportunity, you would rule by the end of a gun. At the drop of a hat you like to throw out that Nazi stuff don't you? Calling people Hitler just because you don't get your own way when you stamp your feet and puff out your chest. You have a lot of growing up to do kid. Hard work is the only answer. Be a man
diamonddust22 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 How did I show I was violent? When did I call you Hitler? Don't you think you leap to conclusions and just blurt things out, like a crackhead? Do you just make up wild things to say because you actually have nothing to say?
Answer me this, and don't dodge it like a whining coward: do you think the industrial and agrarian anarchists of Catalonia did not believe in hard work?
agapeiron 6 months ago
@agape Those people that were the agrarian anarchists of Catalonia implemented that movement out of desperation and it was a movement that came out of oppresion and desperation. What they did in 3 years was the result of years of oppression and repressive conditions. They had no choice but to do what they did as of course the soviet slime balls were there to try and stick their rat noses into it. But YOU are not under those conditions at all, so stop comparing good people to a whiner like you
diamonddust22 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 But do you think what they did in response to repressive conditions was wrong? Answer that, will you? If not, then what is your problem with anarchism? If you think they were good people, why did you show up here to scream in the first place?
It was not merely the result of years of oppression, but also of years of constructive activity, of solidarity and mutual aid. Empathy among peasants in the countryside and workers in the urban areas.
agapeiron 6 months ago
@agapeiron Firstly, what applied in 1936 does not apply now. Those were desperate times calling for desperate measures, and even with the system we have now, if something like that should happen, we as people would band together and help each other. People today, are not the same people as those of 1936 under those conditions. You are not them, and you are not under those conditions. In fact, you have nothing to complain about. You have freedom to do as you wish with your own free will.
diamonddust22 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 "People today, are not the same people as those of 1936 under those conditions."
Agreed. With the rise of the welfare state and trade unionism, the lives of the majority of people in advanced industrial societies is better. But these advances have been won BECAUSE of workers' struggles, not just because capitalism makes itself better on its own. The opposition to capitalism that anarchists hold to as a matter of principle is not assuaged by a few social reforms.
agapeiron 6 months ago
@agapeiron The welfare state has been slowly repealed over the last 30 years. The link between labour struggle and such reforms overlooks, that all social reform granted, has occured when capitalist nation states want to expand troop numbers. It absorbs the worker further into the discourse of the nation state. The more modern function of the welfare state is more complex. Its repealed, but not to the extent that the issue of unemployment is (re)politicised.
dm18876 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 "Those were desperate times calling for desperate measures, and even with the system we have now, if something like that should happen, we as people would band together and help each other."
What about white collar workers from the middle class from those times? There were doctors engineers that were anarchists and took part in workers' self-management, collectivization. Since they were not living under desperate conditions, does that mean they should not have participated?
agapeiron 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 "You have freedom to do as you wish with your own free will."
Yes-- And I see no reason why I should not use my free will to study history, philosophy, political theory, economics.. Which is what I do when I get home from work and have free time. What is wrong with that? Why do you keep saying I am complaining? Do you consider having a vision of a more just socio-economic order to be complaining?
agapeiron 6 months ago
@agapeiron I do if your vision includes living with a dark aged mentality and trying to apply archaic systems to modern issues and problems. Nothing wrong with what you study, as long as you are just living out of text books and not also studying "was is the real world" as opposed to "what was the real world."
diamonddust22 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 I agree with you about archaic systems, but not the way you do, I think. Yes, the classical anarchist thinkers were basing their ideas on the real world in the 19th and early 20th century, nowadays there is the problem of having a clear analysis of the contemporary situation. What is more difficult is that the situation is different, say, in the US than it is in Eastern Europe or South America. Among modern issues, I would say technology and workers self-management are crucial.
agapeiron 6 months ago
@diamonddust22
"What all other men are is of the greatest importance to me. However independent I may imagine myself to be, however far removed I may appear from mundane considerations by my social status, I am enslaved to the misery of the meanest member of society" (Bakunin).
agapeiron 6 months ago
@agapeiron The only thing that is enslaving you, is your own way of thinking. You are a slave to your own thoughts and ideals. You seem to think have this romantic thing going on with Anarchism like it's some trend, or some fashion statement. When someone sings a song and they sing about love you want to believe them, you want to hear the sincerely in their voice. Well, when you tell me about anarchism, I want to hear that in you, but I don't. You sound more like some spoiled bookworm snot
diamonddust22 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 I don't have a romantic thing for anarchism, though I do for democracy and cooperation between people, for firm principles and just deeds. But I don't think one can just romanticize and distort actual problems that arise from putting such ideas into practice, which is one of the reasons I am trying to learn more about economics and history so on, so that there are no blind spots, no elbow room for self-deception and so on. What are your thoughts and ideals?
agapeiron 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 "Well, when you tell me about anarchism, I want to hear that in you, but I don't."
My responses to you weren't me singing you a love song; I was annoyed to see another person howling against anarchists, and perhaps I was a bit rough. But you seem like a decent enough guy. There are all sorts of neo-fascists and right wing libertarian capitalist people lurking around on anarchist videos, sneering and gloating, and sometimes it's necessary to turn the hose of shit in reverse
agapeiron 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 I should add that I have at least addressed the things you have said. In return, you avoid answering any of the questions I ask you, avoid any argument or rational discussion. Immense indifference and dishonesty, endless self-absorption. You just keep attacking me, accusing me of comparing myself to the anarchists of Catalonia (where?) and trying to rev yourself up into a frenzy.
You're the one whining and getting emotional, so don't expect to be taken too seriously.
agapeiron 6 months ago
@agapeiron Stop comparing agrarian anarchists of Catalonia from the 1930's to you in this modern day, because you are not under those conditions at all and if you think you are, you are just a cry baby and a whining little kid. And stop using my line bitch. I know that when I respond to you, the only language you have, is what I give to you, you are nothing more then a little wimp who doesn't want to work for a living in your "do nothing" existence.
diamonddust22 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 When did I compare my living situation to the conditions of the Catalonian anarchists? By the way, there were plenty of doctors, technicians among them also.
By the way, you haven't answered a single question I've asked you-- You just run and hide, and go straight for the ad hominem. What's more, you just make up stuff to attack me for. Then when I call you on it, you move onto the next delusion. Classic move of a coward with no ability to argue.
agapeiron 6 months ago
@agapeiron I don't need to answer any of your questions at all. Your techique of excessive interogative questioning is rather nothing I need to answer. I don't ask you questions, and you don't need to ask me any. Your annoying questioning is just typical of a socialist/communist punk. Oh, and I don't hide from anyone, if i did I wouldn't be here responding to you. So you can shove that bullshit in your anarchistic bowels. The only coward here is you. You have selective perception.
diamonddust22 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 I like how I emphasized the necessity of work in regard to any conceivable vision of life and you keep accusing me of not wanting to work for a living. So let's get it straight: you've said I'm a vegan, you've said I don't want to work for a living, you've said I "throw out Nazi stuff" (?), you've said I compared myself to the Spanish workers. Where did I say these things?
Don't worry, you don't have to answer-- I know you won't anyways.
agapeiron 6 months ago
@agapeir Stop trying to compare yourself to people from a different culture, a different time, a different generation. Anarchism worked for them in their hour of need under extreme conditions and desperate times. You are not those people, you are not from that culture, and you don't live in those times, or under those conditions. You are a spoiled snot nosed brat with your face stuck in a book, living life out of a textbook. You talk too much and you do nothing in life while others do it all
diamonddust22 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 "And stop using my line bitch."
What the fuck?
agapeiron 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 Being a man entails free thinking. Hard work is noble, and the greatest thing there is for man to develop himself, to make use of all his talent. But capitalism, friend, does not allow all to develop themselves. It props up a tiny minority of sneering, privileged snobs. Those are the elitists you are protecting when you howl at anarchists-- Your beloved masters, those born into wealth, those who make non-labor incomes and subvert democracy.
agapeiron 6 months ago
@ag So you are saying that you can't develope yourself as a man because you live in a capitalist society? What a load of shit that is. I think you are just a miserable underachiever that is bitter. I was born into poverty and lived on the streets for 4 years of my life and other people had it way worse then me and went on to become so successful. You just have no balls, backbone, resolve, constitution, fortitute, or intelligence to overcome lifes challenges and opportunities. UR too Fragile
diamonddust22 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 The challenges of life you are speaking of-- those that exist because of class society-- are not the challenges of life. Capitalism does not equal life. It is noble of you to take responsibility and firm resolve in such unfortunate situations, I am not arguing against that obviously, it is a fine thing and you should be proud. Where did I complain about my own situation? I am a moral person and am concerned with justice.
agapeiron 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 If you really took hard work seriously, then you must know that the reason we have an 8 hour day in the US is because of the sacrifices made in history. In Chicago the capitalist State sent the Haymarket anarchists off to be hanged for protesting for the rights of working men. If you do not appreciate their sacrifice, you are not a serious working person. If you sneer at anarchists, you are sneering at them, in which case you are a crony for the capitalists.
agapeiron 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 The idea of someone as petty as you irrationally howling against the Spanish anarchists, working men and women who lived by good honest work, who wanted a more just society and built one, only to have it crushed by fascism-- The idea of someone like you sneering here does is sickening, you should be ashamed you fucking scum.
agapeiron 6 months ago
@diamonddust22 As I said I only use Catalonia as an example that anarchism had been tried in the "real world",not as an example for all future situations.Again you`re pronouncing on what anarchist theories involve whilst admitting you`ve never read any theory.Do you not see the inherent contradiction with this position?
swfcocs1 6 months ago
@swfcocs1 Indeed, there can be no models for future situations. But of course outside of Catalonia, Aragon, Graus, Alcora, Barcelona, etc. And then the more sustained libertarian socialism of the Kibbutzim in the earlier years, though they were less populous.
agapeiron 6 months ago
@agapeironYour point about the kibbutzim is well made.On Spain,I studied the war for my thesis and I disagreed with some of the Anarchists strategy regarding a regular army,although the Stalinists" handling" of the anarchists and the POUM ruined the revolutionary spirit essential to victory.Durruti was a great loss to the CNT/FAI at a crucial time.I do lean towards the argument that victory over franco should have been the priority rather than revolution,but I see the merits of revolution first!
swfcocs1 6 months ago
@swfcocs1 I'd like to move in your direction to assess their strategy. I have begun studying the Spanish example only recently. At first I have been more interested in the constructive aspects in rural and industrial self-management. Once I familiarize myself more with the balance of forces and take in a more rigorous narrative of the events of the Civil War, I'll begin thinking about the actions of the CNT/FAI, Friends of Durruti, etc in regard to revolutionary strategy.
agapeiron 6 months ago
@agapeironIf you want THE narrative of the war then it`s "the battle for Spain" by Anthony Beevor.It`s1000 pages but he`s a brilliant writer(he also wrote THE narrative of the battle of Stalingrad) A smaller book is "the Spanish civil war" by P Preston.There`s also a film you must see-"land and freedom" by Ken Loach.A fellow Brit joins the POUM militia and witnesses the Stalinist repression.A look at the history of the POUM is useful to understand the militia`s.If you have any questions pls ask
swfcocs1 6 months ago
@swfcocs1 Thanks for the great recommendations. I will check out Beevor's book soon, though I have a full plate now as it is.
agapeiron 6 months ago
@agapeiron N o problem.The Spanish civil war was a true tragedy.The irony is that the war was lost largely because of the Stalinists` sectarianism whilst Franco regarded all his opponents as "reds" and killed many thousands in summary executions.communists,socialists,anarchists,liberals,feminists,trade unionists,atheists,protestants all fell in the bastards firing squads.He somehow doesnt have the notoriety of Hitler and mussolini but he was certainly worse than Mussolini in terms of victims.
swfcocs1 6 months ago
@swfcocs1 The shining colors of Stalinism came out in the Spanish revolution. Learning of the attempts at sabotaging the libertarian collectives by the Stalinists really hardened my dislike of Leninism in general. And to learn that one such case was done so under the name of the "Karl Marx Brigade."
agapeiron 6 months ago