If alternative medicine is unproven, why is it popular?

[VitalityMassage]

This man is a quick fix healer. He is totally geared toward helping those people that are too lazy to take care of themselves... like people with clogged arteries. (Most of the general public)  He's not someone that understands the natural. Since he's not someone that understands nature, (disconnected/ungrounded) then he doesn't understand natural medicine and the value of herbs (plants provided by creation for medicinal use.) Eventually he'll get a clue. Some things take extra time.

[istofal]

they work...don't listen to this man.

[chineseal]

They why is Americans 34th in health overall last year out of 130 industrialized nations if medicine worked so damn well.

[paulborst]

@JGD1985 I think that's right. Dr. Knope sort of creates a strawman between alternative and traditional. He continues to mischaracterize integrative medicine by only discussing the alternative fraction in spite of the fact that integrative medicine uses both and the scientific method can and is applied routinely to alternative therapies. It's why I don't take St. John's Wort because of the side effects. How do I know about St. John's wort side effects? Because of the data.

[JGD1985]

I don't think that Dr. Weil wants to eliminate these modern methods of treatment. They are very powerful and effective methods *when needed*. What integrative medicine does emphasize is preventative health like proper diet, exercise, and psychological health, so a person never has to be rushed to a hospital for a heart attack or stroke in the first place.

[karmanmechanic]

so why dont the Gov and AMA put to test alternative treatments?

because if they prove that many alternative modalities actually work, there wont be any money to make and certainly cannot patent nature's bounty

[TheHealingWilderness]

My opinion- I am not a doctor but there again most people aren't. Alt Med is really true med. because it has been around for so long curing people. And many people have been cured by alternative medicine where modern med. could not help them. Modern ER is a life saver not doubt. But modern cures often lead to long chronic illness as the cause is not treated e.g. stress and trauma that i come across a lot in in massage therapy where people have been "preserved" by drugs but their life suffers.

[cowy1]

Knope is a voice of reason being drowned out by the insanity of CAM. The theory behind accupuncture (chi and impossible to measure/substantiate meridians) is complete horseshit. The people who believe in it are on the same educational level as those who believe they have been sodomized by aliens.

[sublimeslimjim]

Why does the free market economy pay more for some of these treatments if they are "complete horseshit"? And as for the educational level of "those who believe it" many MD's and vigorously trained individuals such as chiropractors support CAM use. The hospital in my town now has just added a CAM department. Obviously traditional minds are seeing some merit to massage and acupuncture.

[cowy1]

People pay for it because people are, generally, scientifically illiterate. The average person has no idea of the human body works and when some guy comes along saying he can realign you chi or reduce some invisible spinal lesion with his hands most people believe it because they don't know any better. Factor in that most pain is transient and that the "laying of the hands" makes you feel better (not that you get healthier) and people will get hooked.

[cowy1]

The hospital in town does CAM because it is like stealing money from people. There are no risks with CAM because it doesn't actually treat anything except to emotionally masturbate people.

Every hospital administrator loves CAM because it is a cash/card enterprise and they make a ton of money off it, not because it actually does anything useful, that's what the rest of the hospital is for.

[sublimeslimjim]

The human body can fight viruses, bacterial infection, paracites, broken bones, type II diabetes, chronic disease, heart complications (revascularization), etc... without the presence of conventional medicine.

How can your "subjective" opinion rule systems of treatment or treatments, which have not been understood. We do not fully understand the basic workings of a cell for example. There is a lot of biology there but the science is not complete. Western treatment is perfect for acute trauma.

[cowy1]

The human body fights off type 2 DM? Thats news to me.

Sure, we don't have a perfect knowledge of the human body but we do have enough knowledge to know what is and isn't possible. Chiropracty, for example, relies on the theory that "nerve energy" is disrupting when misalignments of the spine (subluxations) occur.

Never once in the 110 year history of chiropracty has a subluxation been identified and when we study it, it turns it to be little better than placebo, if at all.

[sublimeslimjim]

Dr. Knope on youtube titled Type II Diabetes.

ACSM Guidlines for Exercise Testing and Perscription states that Type II Diabetes (glucose tolerance) is preventable with exercise.

[cowy1]

Sigh, that is part of a treatment plan for DM2. Look up the etiology and pathogenesis and I think you might understand what I mean when I say that the body doesn't fight off DM2 so much as it is fighting itself.

[sublimeslimjim]

But, you or anyone who is not an "expert" in the hard sciences cannot competently say that CAM is a bunch of "bullshit". We as scientists and professionals have no idea. We are running around a completely black room with flashlights (scientific studies) looking at pieces of the big picture. And those pieces rely on statistics. It is going to take forever to fully understand the body and what true healing is.

How would you define Health & Healing? Let us start there.

[cowy1]

I am a physician with a masters in anatomy as well; I know a little something about how the human body works.

[sublimeslimjim]

I have a great deal of respect for the schooling you have undertaken to be where you are.

With all do respect Chiropractors engage in equivalent training as MDs to practice medicine.

[cowy1]

Chiropractors have nowhere near the schooling physicians have; have you seen the entrance requirements for chiropracty school (non-existant) or the length of the typical program? Typically about 3 years, much of it spent wasted trying to diagnose and treat invisible lesions called subluxations.

The least trained and educated physician in the US has at least 7 years of post-undergraduate training (many have well over 12), every one of which is harder and evidence based than chiropracty school

[sublimeslimjim]

I would argue that emotional treatment is a very important component of any medical treatment. Why not diagnose and treat the emotional with the physical. Our minds and bodies compose one system, not two.

[cowy1]

How, really, are you supposed to treat someone's emotional problems? Coddle them, hold their hands, lie about the efficacy of treatments?

We could have physicians do this, but it would be a collossal waste of time not to mention that if we spent time doing this less time would be spent on the important stuff like, you know, their medical issues.

[cowy1]

I'll respond about the articles when I get a chance in the next day or so.

[sublimeslimjim]

Yes, Dr. Knope is a great voice of reason and he is right. We would be foolish to ignore our progress and lower ourstandards of studying. You are not Dr. Knope so do not start making generalities about what is proven or correct. Please include some periodical/scientific sources to back up your blabber. Dr. Knope does...

[sublimeslimjim]

For the record Dr. Knope is correct in his statements. I am disagreeing with your rash judgments and dismissal of potentially beneficial solutions. Yes they need to be studied well, no we should not jump into them blindly, yes the science is not good at this time. Western research with money and brilliant minds struggles to come up with full proof products, which cause no harm. We are playing with a very complex system and why not HELP THE BODY HELP ITSELF? MDs also believe in this idea.

[cowy1]

Explain to me, in scientific terms, how accupuncture (or any other part of CAM) somehow helps the body heal itself better than it would on its own. You defend it staunchly and claim there is research supporting it so this shouldn't be too difficult for you.

[sublimeslimjim]

Wew, big one.

I will see what I can do in the next half hour but this is not my area of expertise...

[sublimeslimjim]

A small analgesic effect of acupuncture was found, which seems to lack clinical relevance and cannot be clearly distinguished from bias. Needling at acupuncture points, or at any site, reduces pain independently of the psychological impact of the treatment ritual is unclear.

citation in next box

[sublimeslimjim]

Acupuncture treatment for pain: systematic review of randomised clinical trials with acupuncture, placebo acupuncture, and no acupuncture groups.

Madsen, Matias Vested, Gotzsche, Peter C, Hrobjartsson, Asbjorn

BMJ Volume: 338 Pages: a3115 Published: 2009 27

[sublimeslimjim]

"Acupuncture care and usual care were both associated with clinically significant improvement at 12- and 24-month follow-up. Acupuncture care was significantly more effective in reducing bodily pain than usual care at 24-month follow-up. No benefits relating to function or disability were identified."

citation in next box

[sublimeslimjim]

Title: Longer term clinical and economic benefits of offering acupuncture care to patients with chronic low back pain.

Author(s): Thomas, K J, MacPherson, H, Ratcliffe, J, et al.

Source: Health Technol Assess Volume: 9 Issue: 32 Pages: iii-iv, ix-x, 1-109 Published: 2005

[sublimeslimjim]

Youtube Video & a Study on Rats

Youtube: Acupuncture Reduces Pain, Need for Opioids after Surgery

Study on Rats and signs of serotonin release could mean acupuncture is a viable treatment for emotional disorders, drug abuse, and alchoholism

Title: Acupuncture stimulates the release of serotonin, but not dopamine, in the rat nucleus accumbens.

Author(s): Yoshimoto, Kanji, Fukuda, Fumihiko, Hori, Masafumi, et al.

Source: Tohoku J Exp Med Volume: 208 Issue: 4 Pages: 321-6 Published: 2006

[sublimeslimjim]

CONCLUSIONS: This study shows that the application of acupuncture and electro-acupuncture could definitely delay the time of requesting pain relief medication after cesarean section and decrease the PCA doses used within the first 24 hours.

Author(s): Wu, Hung-chien, et al., J (Engl) Volume: 122 Issue: 15 Pages: 1743-8 Published: 2009 Aug 5

[sublimeslimjim]

CONCLUSION: Acupuncture was more effective in improving pain than no acupuncture treatment in patients with chronic low back pain, whereas no significant differences between acupuncture and minimal acupuncture.

Author(s): Brinkhaus, Benno, Et Al. Source: Arch Intern Med Volume: 166 Issue: 4 Pages: 450-7 Published: 2006 Feb 27

Also, I compared chiropractic to an MD not a Physician. I will look into Type II diabetes etiology.

Thank you for your time. I am hoping to learn from this.

[cowy1]

Uh, MD=Physician. Although even if you just compare the two degree times chiropracty students are nowhere near the level of medical students in education.

[sublimeslimjim]

You would know :) I'm glad I made that mistake online and not in a face to face debate. What is a specialist's degree (e.g. brain surgeon) are they still a Physician/MD.

Also, I looked at the course work for CD Vs MDs but read that the hours logged is misleading because of outside of class research requiorments and competency examinations. Would you agree with that and/or add anything to it?

24 years old eh, that is a quick Medical Degree my friend. Did you just graduate?

[cowy1]

Whoops, looks like I screwed up my birthdate, thanks for catching it.

There is no change in letters, a neurosurgeon is an MD just as your Internist is an MD. The difference is in post-medical school training which can range from 3 years to 10+.

DC schools might have more hours, but as they spend a huge amount of time teaching hocus pocus in the form of the subluxation, much of it is wasted. Additionally, they essentially see no actual patients before they graduate.

[newmedstudent]

I am a medical student and I did not believe in chiropractic, but after I was adjusted I no longer have headaches when I lay down...

thats proof to me...

[Kingfillins]

"This has been done by the chines for 30 years"

Potentially Acupuncture has been practice for 4000 years.

This guy is plain ignorant.

Sure we have amazing western medicine. But a lot of it is needed because we take bad medicine, bad diets, and so need surgery at the end of it.

Alternative medicines work in very well with all treatments.

This is disinfo.

[kitsune9t]

No, it's not. If you looked into the history of TCM you'd knowt that it was cobbled together by Mao out of several distinct local traditions to make up for the lack of promised universal health care. Acupunture as we know it today is a modern phenomena that relies upon modeern needles, a couple of thousand years ago it was just bloodletting.

[Kingfillins]

Approximately 1000 BC, during the Shang Dynasty, hieroglyphs showed evidence of Acupuncture and Moxibustion. Bronze needles were excavated from ruins, but the bian stones (from the New Stone Age) remained the main form of needle.

Accupuncture is not simply the act and application. It is also the theoretical system which dates back 8000 years.

You can come up with a certain definition if you want.

I consider acupuncture to also include the use of meridian pressure points.

[newmedstudent]

As a medical student myself, having experience in primary patient care, what is proven that many people suffer from ailments that are very easily preventable without the use of medication.

[spencerdev91]

This one is easy to answer: They work

[tragueelsol]

Hmmm.. I wonder why alternative medicine is still unproven? I have to disagree with you Dr. Knope. Your statements about alternative medicine are simply childish. I'd like for you to tell me why alternative medicine is still unproven? And to add to that if we are so advanced, why the hell are people not living longer nowadays, to me that number is still flat.

[kitsune9t]

it's unproven because the alternative business (it is) refuses to acknowledge the validity of 'evidence based medicine' and everytime it's tested by the medical establishment it turns up placebos and people do live longer, average life expectancy in the west has been rising for years.

[DennyMclain2008]

what the good doctor hasn't yet awakened to is the medical mafia works to suppress information to protect its death grip Oligopoly. look at what they have done with mercury in vaccines.. there is a whole cabal working to keep the lid on it's being the cause of autism... done intentionally.