Madeline

[enkeksinickia]

This case just makes me sick. This is why we should ridicule all the religions all the time.

[askegg]

You are making informed decisions on your own health and well being, which is your right. However, this does not seem to b the case here. Madeline's parents chose a course of action which has been shown to have exactly the same effect as doing nothing at all. Rather than investigate the cause of the illness and investigate the various options (including their probability of success) they unilaterally decided to pray for her instead. Unfortunately, this resulted in her unnecessary death.

[askegg]

Not quite what I am addressing here.

In this case they have a treatment with well proven outcomes and results. instead the parents have opted for a treatment which is either unknown, or shown not to work. How is that a rational decision?

[TheAist]

im with ya, these situations are travesties of justice, and morality

[StrangeGlobal]

I don't even know if there is an answer to this one... Even if a line is solidified, people will just disregard it if they believe something very extreme. Education? Harder punishment for neglect? Mass conversion? Have fake doctors that say they're praying while they're really giving the child antibiotics?

[keith1y]

I have a pebble at home which has survived for longer than your entire evolutionary line of animals. What is life for? What advantage does a living cell have over a rock, in terms of survival? They are after all just different configurations of atoms, that is all they are. Life is nothing special, it is not even very robust.

[Marcaurelix]

This is the stupidest comment I have ever read.

If you don't know the difference between a rock and a living cell, go home and read biology and geology books.

A rock doesn't survive because it's inanimate.

A cell, and all living things, undergo metabolism, maintain homeostasis, possess a capacity to grow, respond to stimuli, reproduce and, through natural selection, adapt to their environment in successive generations.

[keith1y]

This is a philosophical question, and you gave me the answer I was expecting. According to you life has value only because you, a living thing say so. This is a circular argument.

Since life will cease to exist in the universe as it expands and tends to heat death. The value of life to itself is not relevant.

What value has life to say the universe?Or to a planet? or to a pebble?

According you Life is merely one transient, convenient arrangement of atoms.A pebble is another,which is better

[keith1y]

philosophically speaking unless there is a sentient being outside of living matter that is capable of determining and attributing value for life, then life has no actual value, because there is no one or no thing to attribute it with value.

Uunless you can demonstrate that life has intrinsic long term value, worrying about the death of one organism is neither here nor there.

Since you do worry about it, this should be an indication to you that there is more to life than atoms.

[Marcaurelix]

First you have to prove that your God exists before you make stupid assertions. You have the burden of truth for claiming that your God exists.

If you or me believed the nonsence that our lives have no value, we would have killed ourselves a long time ago. I have family and friends that care about me and value my life. I bet your family values your life. They don't need a God to it.

"there is more to life than atoms." Don't talk scientifically if you can't differentiate rocks from cells.

[keith1y]

Dont be silly, please dont confuse my assertion that God exists with the logic of the arguament. I beleive God exists because I have met him, and because science requires something to exist that is the source of order and information in the universe. Look for that something and you find God by definition (no bible is required)

Cells are an arrangement of atoms, that is the scientific fact.

[Marcaurelix]

Cells can react to their environment. They can adapt, they feed, they reproduce, and, given enough time, they can evolve in successive generations. Rocks can't.

People have also met aliens. We have testimonial accounts of people who were abducted by aliens. Indian people have met Vishnu, Arabs have met Alah. What difference is there between an Arab meeting Alah or someone meeting an alien and you meeting God?

[keith1y]

I am aware that Cells can do many things, but in the end it makes no difference what they do. The physical universe is tending to heat death, all cells will die and ultimately decompose into individual atoms.

You are giving life value by appealing to non-physical concepts such as care, love, and the value of relationships.

These are non-physical things, as are your aliens, as is the "angel" that mohammed met, and God himself. Logically there can be only one ultimate source of everything.

[Marcaurelix]

"You are giving life value by appealing to non-physical concepts such as care, love, and the value of relationships."

Well, actually, these concepts are more neural-chemical and hormonal, not devine. Sorry

Why is your God more real than Alah, aliens or Santa Clause?

[keith1y]

Oh, so if these concepts are purely neural chemical then they are not real the are a mere illusion. Any actual value they have is purely imaginary and made up.

So who is making things up to feel happy now?

[Marcaurelix]

There are evolutary reason for having emotions. But see, with your doubts about reality and illusions now you are entering into the grounds of epistemology.

It would be like me asking you that how do you know that we are not in the Matrix and that God is just an illusion so that the machines could control you easily?

[keith1y]

Santa Claus is not real because he is a fictional character invented by an advertising agency for Coca Cola.

Aliens are real, but I wouldnt believe anything they say. The same is true of the so called "angel" that Mo' met. Bad spirits pretend to be good ones. If you challenge the lying spirit that caused an individual to think that they saw aliens, then you can get to the truth.

God is altogether different in character. You know God by his character and personality.

[Marcaurelix]

How can you differentiate good spirits from bad spirits? How do you know that the "God" that spoke to you wasn't a bad spirit? How do you know that God himself is a good spirit?

After all, he did kill-off humanity a few times and he has sparked several genocidal wars against other people for not believing in him. He permites and defends slavery and the stoning of adulterers and unruly children. He seems to be very unmoral character.

[keith1y]

Sure you value your family and friends, but why? There is no reason scientific reason to do so. Do you value a fly when you squash it? In scientific terms they are both complex arrangements of atoms, both living and both have a brain.

You have correctly understood that atheism logically leads to the conclusion that you might as well top yourself now.

Please don't, because atheisim is not true, you love others.

So you are using "love/care" as your guiding rule.

BTW "God is Love."

[Marcaurelix]

Evolutionary phychology. Natural selection occurs most robustly at the level of the gene, not the individual, group, or species.

Reproductive success can thus be indirect, via shared genes in kin. Being altruistic toward kin can thus have genetic payoffs.

This means that a close family has a higher rate of survival and a higher problability to have offspring.

Christians have the highest suicide rates and Jews and Atheist have the lowest.

[keith1y]

You only believe you evolutionary psycology because someone told you so. It hasn't been tested.

Using genetic algorithms (which I have) in fact selection when it occurs reduces the amount of information in the gene, so it results in reduced diversity of your progeny and hence reduced survivability of the species should the environment change.

The power of genetics is in its problem solving ability to span the solution space to find adequate but not perfect solutions in optimum manner.

[Marcaurelix]

Evolutionary psychology has as much ground as Freudian, Jung or Maslow psychology. And it's a much better answer than your unprovable God thing, which, by the way, you still haven't told me the reason why your God is more believable than Alah, Vishnu, or aliens.

Genetics is an arms race or competition of sorts. Biologically I'm more interested that my family members spread their genes more than my nieghbors. But if we live with our neighbors, it's for survival reasons.

[keith1y]

Why you continue to believe that life has a value, when you do not acknowledge any non-physical relaity is beyond me. It is inconsistent and hypocritical.

Atheism = materialism.

Material decays

There is no other basis for discussion in atheism. If you appeal to any metaphysical concept you are a hypocrite.

[Marcaurelix]

I am not being metaphysical. I just have a logical bias towards life. It's called having a survival instinct.

I have a question. Do you believe in God because you fear that without him, you life is meaningless? Is life so hard for you?

Hypothitically, if tomarrow you discovered that your God isn't real, would you kill yourself?

[keith1y]

I don't fear that life is meaningless, I know it is without God. Thats is the logic, it is incontrovertible. That didn't bother me before, I was an atheist until the age of 23.

Before meeting God there was nothing to gain and nothing to lose.

After meeting God, things got interesting. I learned that I have a purpose, that love has a purpose, that beauty, learning, and compassion all have a purpose. I learned that my character and development was something of eternal worth.

[Marcaurelix]

I don't care about your psedo-logic. You still can't prove the existance of God.

I don't care that you were an atheist. Is that an argument for authority or what?

If your illusion makes you feel better, if it gives you a fuzzy feeling inside, good for you.

[keith1y]

You should care about the first and second law of thermodynamics

[Marcaurelix]

Oh god, your best argument is entropy?

Thermodynamics does not concern itself with the detailed description of a system; it deals only with the relationship between initial and final states of a given system .

Spontaneous entropy decreases can, and do, occur all the time, providing sufficient energy is available.

Considering the earth as a system, any change that is accompanied by an entropy decrease is possible. The ultimate source of most of that energy, is of course, the sun.

[Marcaurelix]

This means that we, as living creatures, have physical "order", at the cost of an important energy consumption.

[keith1y]

Exactly, the universe is a system.

Every single process universally that involves a conversion of energy, results in a net increase in entropy.

Therefore within the system, there is no process which can decrease entropy of the whole system. So the system is not self sustaining, nor is it self starting.

This proves that there are forces external to the system at work. Logically the ultimate source has to have less entropy than the system it invests in.

[keith1y]

So yes exactly thermodynamics does concern its self with the initial and final states.

The initial state of the universe had less entropy than the current state. Yet there is no process possible which can produce the initial state.

I think you ratified my point nicely.

However does an ultimate source with zero entropy, have infinite useful energy?

This points to an ultimate source of infinite order, from which a universe with some order maybe derived.

[Marcaurelix]

The inicial point of the universe was a single point, smaller than an atom, with an immense amount of heat and density.

But it is not necessary to produce this initial state because the universe has always existed.

[Marcaurelix]

Yes, there are processes the decrease entropy. But you need energy to sustain the system. For example, living creatures aquire it's energy from food.

A biological organism serves as an energy transfer mechanism or a "heat engine". Life feeds on negative entropy.

[Marcaurelix]

The universe itself is entropic, but elements (systems) within the universe, such as galaxies, cells, ecosystems, and human beings, have been able to assemble themselves because, locally, entropy can be lowered by external action, e.g. solar heating action.

But this is only possible at the expense of an entropy increase in the surroundings; here more disorder must be created.

Living systems are open systems in which both heat, mass, and work transfer into or out of the system.

[keith1y]

"Hypothitically, if tomarrow you discovered that your God isn't real, would you kill yourself?"

Quick answer no... I would indulge in unbridled hedonism instead, but I would expect to do myself in eventually.

However in reality, it would be so much more convenient of God wasn't there, the fact that he is always right is really annoying (hence the cricifixion?). When angry with God, I am stuck with the scientific logical requirement for his existence which is immovable.

[Marcaurelix]

I repeat: Christans and Muslims have the highest suicide rates and Atheist and Jews have the lowest suicide rates.

It's more problable that you kill yourself for being a Christian than for being an Atheist.

How is the belief in the existance of God scientific or logical?

[Marcaurelix]

You're right, in the universe we are insignificant things. You believe in God because he makes you feel better. You can't cope with reality.

A circular argument would be that you believe in God because the Bible says so. And the Bible is right because God says so.

"Life is merely one transient, convenient arrangement of atoms.A pebble is another,which is better"

I already explained the difference between rocks and life. Read below. If you don't know the diference, read a book.

[keith1y]

The everythingistic source I propose is God, whose nature is love. if you were had been around for eternity you would have had a lot of time to think, and be lonely with nothing to relate to and love.

That is the purpose of heaven, to be able to relate to God, and to be fulfilled in a relationship with him.

Life is precious because God said so, eye witness statement, "I knew you in your mothers womb... every hair on you head is numbered"

[keith1y]

p.s. God = Heaven, they are one and the same thing. Heaven is a hebraic synonym for God

[Marcaurelix]

Life is precious because we, as people, give it value and meaning.

God has nothing to do with it.

[keith1y]

As an aetheist, askegg, what is the philosophical basis for your moralizing? We will all be dead eventually, according to the aetheist it doesnt make any difference in. On what basis can you reassure me that life is in any way precious. For atheism life is an accidental, temporary and fleeting anomaly in an otherwise inevitably lifeless universe.

[askegg]

It makes a difference to everyone who lives. This is something we are certain of.

There is a philosophy that if at any time your impact makes no difference, then you make no difference. I do not subscribe to that. We can improve the quality now.

Let me flip it around. If you are a Christian and destined for Heaven and eternal bliss, then why do you care about what happens to other people now? You are saved and the other will meet their divine destination in due time, so why bother?

[keith1y]

Because there is a purpose in our present existence. There are experiences that are possible in this context which shape character, and develop relationships in a manner which is not possible without the choice to love or not.

[keith1y]

to continue... this means that your actions and the positive relationships you make have an eternal significance for the Christian, which is not present for the aetheist, yet the aetheists repeatedly makes videos as if there was a lasting effect.

[askegg]

Follow it through (as you did to me). What's the purpose of being in Heaven? What the purpose of that? Etc. If at some point it makes no difference what you do, then why do you bother?

[keith1y]

But it does make a difference what you do, it makes a lot of difference, ask anyone who has had a vision of heaven.

[askegg]

Again, you are not thinking Heaven through in the same manner you are applying to the natural world.

What is the purpose of being in Heaven?

[keith1y]

In billions years we will all be dead and the universe have tended to heat death. So any value you place on life is purely arbitrary and based upon your irrational blind faith in the value of life, which ultimately has none.

Fortunately it is hard to reject your inbuilt conscience that life is precious. But I think that you really do owe us a logically valid explanation as to where your conscience comes from. This source is by definition the "God or principle defining thing of morality".

[askegg]

"Fortunately it is hard to reject your inbuilt conscience that life is precious."

I am descended from an extraordinary long line of animals who valued their lives - it's an evolutionary advantage.

You are simply asserting god is the reason life is valuable. Got any evidence for that statement?

[keith1y]

Choose form two staring points. 1. Nihilisitic 2. Everythingistic.

1. Nothing exploded, matter complexity, information, life, morality, all grew out of nothing (and will return to nothing).

2. Everything, all order, creativity, life, energy, information and knowledge, existed eternally forever. The physical universe we are in is merely our glimpse on the eternal order of everythingness.

Which is more logically true. The first contravenes all known scientific laws, the second doesn't.

[Marcaurelix]

No one is saying that something or everything came from nothing. That is what Christian believe, right? That God created everything from nothing.

The universe has always existed, just in another form (an extremely dense and hot point, smaller than an atom).

Through natural processes, water (H2O), methane (CH4), ammonia (NH3), and hydrogen (H2) can turn into amino acids.

There are so many species due to random mutations and non-random natural selection.

[Raptor302]

I'd like to ask those parents where they get their morality from...

[Jkelquedi]

maybe placebo effect

[Khayd4126]

There is a provision in the current health care bill in the house that will allow this sort of thing, and even reimburse the priests (or whatever) for their time.

Everyone, please take 10 minutes out of your day, and write your rep to make sure that provision is removed, at least as far as children are concerned.

[askegg]

Government back exorcisms? WTF?

[Khayd4126]

Excorcisms, faithhealing, etc, yes. what was originally specifically made for "christian scientists" has been reworded so that any religion who makes the same claims get reimbursed for this.

[JohnFredricksen]

So what is the alternative: do we let the State raise our kids in accordance with the values of the State? What if the State, say like ancient Rome adopts Christianity, do we all have to raise our kids as Christians? What if the State is represented by Republicans, must we raise our kids as Replublicans? Be very careful about demanding some State sponored bureaucrat be responsible for raising your kids.

[askegg]

I am not advocating that either.

[geffel]

I believe her name was Cara Neumann, but otherwise you're on the right track. I thoroughly agree with you.

[bdf2718]

I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole, but homeopathy does have a positive effect. That effect is no more powerful than a placebo, because homeopathic cures ARE placebos. The important point is that a placebo is more effective than doing nothing. Perhaps not as powerful as real medicines, which are tested for being more effective than placebos (but big pharma cheats on the testing so you can't be sure). At least homeopathic remedies don't have nasty side-effects like real medicines.

[razoras]

The placebo effect is believed to cause more harm than good, because it can cause people to fail to seek actual treatment. Hardly an argument in favor of homeopathy.

[bdf2718]

Do you have a scientific study which shows it does more harm than good or is that just some people's guess? The British government clearly believes (again, perhaps because of no more than opinion) that the placebo effect is of overall benefit because some "alternative medicine" is now covered by the National Health Service.

How many big pharma scandals have there been in the past few years? Anti-depressants that cause suicide, etc. Then again, the homeopath's bill could cause suicide...

[razoras]

What form would this study you want take, exactly? Are you somehow suggesting that it's a simple matter of opinion that that the benefits of feeling good outweigh the fact that simply feeling good doesn't cure illness?

Studies show that there are benefits of having a positive attitude, yes, but to suggest that this means you should drink water instead of using your asthma inhaler is absolutely irresponsible and downright dangerous.

[TrenchantAtheist]

Placebos are most effective on issues that can be handled by the mind, such as pain. There have been instances where sham surgeries were performed by actual doctors, after which the patient claimed to be cured, even when the doctor openly explained that general anesthesia and stitches were all that were used (nothing but a flesh wound was produced)

But you are quite right that placebos are no more a benefit to medicine than stupid people are to politicians who market good bills with bad slogans

[bdf2718]

What form would a study take? Oooh, a statistical one. Preferably double-blind but I'd accept one comparing different countries with different attitudes if confounding factors can be adequately allowed for. I.e., facts rather than conjecture.

As for drinking water rather than using an asthma inhaler, most sufferers are rapidly going to form their own opinion as to which works best, and choose the inhaler. Those who continue to drink water will benefit the gene pool by dying.

[HelplessVictim]

So glad I subscribed.

[neuronstorm]

Bloody good point.

Even when whole bunch of believers die in a mass delusional suicide/homicide - the word 'cult' conveniently distances these sorts of events from more 'acceptable' delusions.

The irrational anti-vaccine,homeopath and religious mentalities somehow escape widespread condemnation because, wars aside - the death and maiming occurs broadly and steadily - but unspectacularly.

[JesusSavesAtCitibank]

We are not only "drawing the line", but are actually going the other way. Here in the US our auto insurance policies covering medical expenses stipulate:

"...for necessary remedial treatment and services recognized and permitted under the laws of the state for an injured person who relies upon spiritual means through prayer alone for healing in accordance with his religious beliefs;".

That's faith healing, and we're all paying for it!

Even the recent health reform bills cover faith healing.

[premed2]

We need late night infomercials proclaiming the amazing powers of science. With over the top testimonials, histrionics, and the frequently repeated line, "but wait there's more..."

[kukulza]

it occured to me last night at about 4am...there are 4 things on late-night TV:

1. porn

2. infomercials (religious inclusive)

3. News/Talk shows (Talk shows can actually be better news... Craig Ferguson is the shit :D)

4. Religious broadcasting... (funny how "the word of God" is too obnoxious for day-time television)

you can, quite literally, switch back and forth between a black Evangelical (funny in itself; lol worshiping your oppressor's beliefs) and Girls Gone Wild.

[premed2]

Yep! The same thing occurred to me when I was watching porn at 4 am last night. :p

[TrenchantAtheist]

That one always bothered me, too.

Sure, you can make excuses for the deity and say that it "wasn't their fault" that horrible people worshiped them, but if I were ever under the service of slavers who claimed a god... and if I were inclined to be religious... I'd at least have the sense to look for a god who struck down malevolent people who worshiped them. Even Dana White, owner of the UFC has the decency to say, "Nope, not in my organization" to people who act out of line.

[vancharm]

homeopath is good only in one way when nothing else can help and you just need to know you tried everything. i have only seen it work once and that's it. only reason that person tried it was because she knew if she kept up with the kimo therapy she was going to die. but she was an adult and could make the choice for herself.

no one should put there thoughts on other things on their kids. that's why we have doctors, they are there to make you better.

[MicrosoftsourceCode]

Part of re educating people into believing in science is to listen and understand what they want to know about science. It's no good blinding people with science if you are not aware of how receptive they are. Most Physics and science lectures are extremely boring and put people of learning. The bible is also boring and that is why many religions only concentrate on some parts and ignore others. All men are not born equal so don't expect instant results m8.

[MsAntitheist]

God has never intervened with anything. In cases like these the punishment is always too mild.

Homoeopathic medicine is also a load of BS. If it actually worked it would just be called medicine. Religions lead to many terrible things. The USA allows churches to preform exorcisms on children against their will and in some cases they die from things as dehydration. Judges consider this a church ritual and do not punish the church for it.

Ridiculous all of it religion really does poison everything

[redFISTofEUROPE]

i wouldn't say that homeopathy doesn't work

it can't cure everything, but at some illneses, homeopathy is a equal option.

but i wouldn't rely on it if i got cancer or shit like that.

[askegg]

If your thirsty homeopathy works great. For everything else it's like drinking water.

[transferosome]

redFISTofEUROPE, save yourself some cash long term and get a lucky rabbit's foot or something.

[redFISTofEUROPE]

du bist scho so a koffa ge?

voiidiot oida

[transferosome]

Sorry, can you use English please?

[redFISTofEUROPE]

leck mi am oasch

[lilmarome]

I feel lucky to be alive now. My dad is nonreligious but doesn't know anything about asthma and allergies. And my mum believes in god and is drawn to one sect after an other. I'm lucky that she had sense enough to take me to the hospital when I had asthma attacks when I was young

[NonStampCollector]

I love your style, sir.

[billythefifer]

It's ok to torture and murder your kids if your a thiest, if this was an athiest that did this ???????

[SavvyDrifter]

That's about the most disturbing thing I've heard in a while.

:(

[Paxmax]

that is depressing. It seems like having many kids and a f-ckup faith is carte blanche to get lenient sentences.

I would f-n strip their right to religion, place a parole officer/nanny to oversee their behaviour 24/7.

Once their kids are mature enough, throw the parents in jail for a couple of years.

[askegg]

So depressing it has sucked the colour from me.

[MarkLucasTube]

We can't draw the line. Do you want a perpetual war between reasonable people and stupid people? Should we intern or exterminate stupid people? Faith is the largest part of unintelligent, ignorant and stupid people's lives. We cannot defeat it.

[TheLionOfMars]

We already drew a line but these know it all faith healers and witch doctors cover it up with BS!

[KingHeathen]

one month a year? WTF! Carelessly wreck your car while intoxicated, texting while driving, going too fast, or something to that effect...and kill a passenger and you are sentenced for MAN SLAUGHTER! There will be no 6 months over 6 years BS statement! I see no difference in the wrongful death situations that I just illustrated and a parent that doesn't seek medical attention for their child.

Seriously....WTF!?

[flyingfisbeefilms]

Excellent video on a hugely complicated event. The judge used the law available to him. I personally would have ranted and raved at the parents four endless hours then thrown them in jail for 25 years. Their remaining kids , however need parents so what to do?

[kimberlyliles]

Yes, the remaining kids do need parents....though I'm sure that they would prefer parents that would not kill them through sheer stupidity.

[kelliko70]

The sentence in this case was disgusting. They should have received much more.

[KasparHauser4]

I think the best solution is to teach reason and rationality. If we actually were able to go to door like the Jehovah's witnesses...inviting people to become rational critical thinkers and published our own newsletter and on line presence..we could make a difference although not immediately. The christians have been preaching their stuff for centuries..that is why it is so strong..for us it might take a century of collective work to turn the majority about.

[TomConger]

They should be given a life sentence.

[Posty2k3]

*sigh* These people are from the area I live in. I'm sad to say it. They make me sick.

It's a load of bullshit.

[RtFusion]

The sentence is disgusting. They don't deserve 25 years but life many times over for not caring for their OWN child.

Great video, kegg.

[dtm52]

So if the Parents kill another of their children, they will get another 6 months over years. I wonder how many of their children will need to die before they get life in prison. Sick.

[theqmogvlogs]

I think their sentence was okay, really. So long as they truly believed they were doing the best for the child it is at most negligent homicide. I think that the judge likely opted to sentence them in the way that he did as not to punish their remaining children and while allowing the children to maintain family relationships made certain to also protect them from future neglect caused by their parents beliefs.

[musekiteer]

// So long as they truly believed they were doing the best for the child it is at most negligent homicide //

If I am ever responsible for the death of a powerless innocent through "well-meaning" ignorance while surrounded by accurate information and good advice, then I want you for a sentencing judge. In the meantime, these misguided lunatics should be used as an example that religiously-motivated murder is not OK. Morally unevolved types respond to threat of punishment.

[Shaggy6386]

It's murder in my eyes.

[lyvvie]

Why are they still allowed custody of their remaining children? That's insane! The whole mess stinks. Judge Howard is a huge disappointment.

[TipoftheSlung]

I think that this is a clear example of the American justice system favouring Christianity, they would have thrown away the keys it they'd been satanists.

[shlunko]

Terribly sad, 25 years would have to be the minimum time spent in jail for what they did.

[saxmanchiro]

Their children should be taken away from them, jailed for many yrs(manslaughter) and not be able to raise their children, EVER. Religion is child abuse, in my opinion, and this must be dealt with by society as such. So many religious nutters put youngsters through this and even kill them in the process.

This needs to be talked about more in the media. Why the fuck is religion so untouchable? Let's call them on this shit for what it is, emotional child abuse. It's that simple.

[newexperiment]

agree 100%. IF I agreed with the death penalty I'd say give it to them, make an example (but I don't).

You ask when we draw the line. As soon as we stop being so polite and respectful of people who don't recognize religion for what it is AND people (atheists)who are soo polite and respectful of religion.

first

[Lovingdoubt]

They did get off easy...

It makes me horribly sad that that girl would probably still be alive if it weren't for her parent's reckless behavior.

It's just not right *shakes head*