I never though I was ever going to find a youtuber who talks about philosophy :D. I always wanted, and sometimes still want, to do that, but my spoken english kind of sucks, that's why I don't do it. :\. BTW, there can still be uranium today without problem, since in can be reformed inside the stars. If u mean that eventually uranium will stop existing, the answer for that is yes.
Some years ago me and my buddy was asked 'what is time' for som theatre project. We just sat there as two question marks. Next time i'll meet him i'm gonna impress him by quating this video. I can even elaborate :-)
finite things or events need movement and events need a cause infinite regression can only happen if time didin't move foward but backwards which still means that infinite regression needs a starting point (cause). And movement needs to be moved by something outside it like gravity moving a stream or someones lungs to blow moving air (cause again). the on going process (either regression or digression) needs a one arrowed direction or you won't get regression or digression. it still needs God
wait a minute how can events keep moving in the direction of the past since the only direction that time moves is foward, its not like events reverse in time, were not reversing in time are we? Can time move backwards and fowards at the same time? Time has to move, like a stream of water, obviously a stream can't move fowards and backwards at the same time or else you don't have a stream of water, the same has to go with time, like the stream of water, the on going process needs 1 direction.
An actual infinite is "a collection of definite and discrete members whose number is greater then any natural number" and a potential infinite is a collection that is increasing toward infinity as a limit but never gets there. So I think the definition you have of actual vs potential is inaccurate.
The argument is that actual infinities can not exist in the real world, this is exposed by the logical absurdities that result from thought experiments like Hilbert's hotel.
We can get there after an infinite amount of time. Try this: Move across your room one meter traversing one infinitesimal space at a time and message me when your done. Don't tell me an actual meter cannot exist.
I am considering making a Hilbert's Hotel rebuttal, but that would require a video. The paper I gave has rebuttals to similar arguments which should do for now.
The problem is you can't reach an actual infinite "after" an infinite amount of time elapses because you cannot reach an actual infinite by successive addition, you can always add one more member before reaching infinity. You then explained that you can only if the past is infinite with no starting point, but this is even more of a problem not less, If you cannot count to infinity how then can you count down from infinity?
While I don't necessarily agree that the universe is infinite, a god wouldn't be required even if it was. Assuming that the universe is infinite, and radioactive decay and entropy WILL grind the universe to a halt, that doesn't mean "God" is necessary, just a mechanism that can reverse decay. You can choose to call this mechanism "God" if you wish, but it would be dishonest as the word carries extra connotations that aren't necessarily true.
I was trying to point VenomFangX in a better direction; not because I think there is proof of God in that direction, but because I knew VenomFangX would not be open to the idea that there is no proof of God's existence. So, rather than have him repeating the same flawed argument, as he has in the past, I thought it would be best to try to lead him to find new arguments. So, it was a debate tactic not an argument for the existence of God lol.
Heh, fair enough =P Have you been keeping up with the VFX drama lately? dprjones has agreed to not press charges if Shawn gets psychological counselling, but lordhathor is still gunna sue the crap out of him. It's all very fun.
I FGod is in time then time is either a sequence of events or time is a measuree of changes. then either God is in a sequence of events or God is in the measure of CHANGES. Why Time is not in God and why God is in time?
Yeah, read my other comment I made to your first comment. If that still doesn't answer it for you, explain the difference between in time and time in. I don't understand what you mean.
The only reason I said God is in time is because VenomFangX created this imaginary place which he calls outside of time. A better way of putting it, I think, is that God is a part of time. There isn't really an in or out there just is time and you can't say time is in God because it is hypothetically possible that time could exist without God (ignoring how time got here in the first place of course).
No one is conscious of ever NOT having lived, nor is anyone ever conscious of no longer living. In our minds we live forever, because our mind is what gives us conscience.
We still die and forever stay dead. No one has ever come back, and no one stuck around forever. All living things are condemned to death at birth. It's called reality.
Mortality is a terrible thing only to those who insist that make believe alternate realities (aka fantasies) is the way to go. Reality is my way of life!
I think also another way to put it, is that God is trancendant of the physical laws of this Universe. In Christian theology, God was there before everything existed. Time as you mentioned, and I am paraphrasing, is not an actual thing. It is a tool that finite beings use to measure things. Time as many people have put it in mags, on youtube etc. has no real meaning on a universal, galactic, or even planetary scale. Only when you get down to the finite concious level does "time" mean anything.
I'm not sure what you are responding to because that is pretty much my argument. I think it's perfectly within reason to have infinite time with no beginning.
Srry Owchywawa (great name btw), I agree with you. Now I just want to again reiterate that time is not an actual thing. It is simply how we segment the decay of our bodies if you will. A way to effectivly devide up the day for work purposes, and general life. God is infinite and "outside of time" in that He has no begining or end . He isnt finite, so for lack of a better way to put it, He isnt on a time clock, so the passing of events holds little meaning, as it would and does for us.
To me it sounds like we need to define our starting point here. Time as in the pasing of events, and time the way we increment our finite existence. When ever an action takes place, you have to be able to say when it happend. Now if God is inifinite then that siply means he had no begining. He exists now, before, and in the future. This is of course in relation to this finite universe. In relation to everything in this universe he didnt begin with it. He is priori, during and ante dium
the earth will not end but some thing critical with happen the recent dicovery of PLANET X lead to belive that planet x's orbit take 3650yrs for it to go 1 round and every round that planet x make a mass extinction of 90% of the orgamisms will be extinct and debre tha folow planet x will hit the earth for an example metors comits and so forth the next time planet x will pass is u guessed it 2012 but the true question is will humans survive better make plans for ur last day
If you have PROOF that God is real, then why do people need FAITH?
If heaven is so much better than Earth, why are we born here on Earth?
If God is perfect, why is the Bible riddled with mistakes He made?
Isn't religion all about living forever in some sort of paradise? It appeals to man's greed, while keeping him in line with threats of eternal torment.
I've read the entire Bible and my conclusion is that Scripture was written by profoundly flawed humans, to exploit and control.
no, hell isnt a threat. its a punishment for sinning. yes, denying God is a sin. if you kill someone, shouldnt you be punished? well why should u be punished? because God created you and created the laws. you cant argue with the laws no matter how much you dont like them, you just have to abide by them.
if the Bible was written to control, why did Jesus and others in the book teach about being kind to others more than Him being the way? is that evil now?
For the same reason you still need faith to accept that your parents ARE your birth parents. Because at some point you have to trust, or take it on faith if you will, that the data, or "proof," they are showing you to support their claim, is good enough. And it is at THAT point, that you have exercised faith my friend. I hope this was a clear analogy :)
"The universe isn't infinite, the concept of time is, but the universe will eventually die and there are several theories on how that will take place."
Well, technically energy can neither be created or destroyed so the universe will always exist. It may not have existed forever, but I think something in it must have in order for the universe to have been started in the first place.
I respect your point and think this video is very good as an argument for infinite time vs. absolute time with God living outside time, good video but if time is infinite (and of course it is) then the universe was, logically, existing infinitely. The universe depends on time, as all things do, and it just seems to me the logical thing would be that something was always here...The universe never "started". It just is. Maybe I'm wrong
An infinite past is not logically impossible and was in fact an integral part of the popular Steady State model of the universe before the Big Bang model ultimately prevailed.
However, the Big Bang model to which most current atheists adhere neither assumes nor requires an infinite past and it is understood that time did not exist "before" the Big Bang.
Shawn's argument against an infinite past has its flaws but even if valid, it would not prove God and might as well support the Big Bang.
True. It might be evidence for God if the Bible specifically claimed time had a beginning and that God exists outside of time, but it doesn't, so this isn't evidence for God (or the big bang) either way.
I was trying to get him to think logically one step at a time, but he doesn't seem interested as he ignored my video response.
It seems more likely that the universe was eternal to me, but I could be wrong.
"God's actions are simultaneous at all points of time."
If God did do everything as if it was instantly, how does that translate to certain times in our universe? The only way that can happen is if God is some how connected with time.
While you're interpretation of 'God without time' makes sense in the context of VFX's argument, it's important to remember that God as Christians understand that He exists at all times simultaneously (hence God is omniscient).
Ergo, while Man may percieve creation and crucifixion as two events seperated by time, God's actions are simultaneous at all points of time.
That said, I'll try read the God within time article at some point.
The universe was all as a singularity with out the laws of physics and will expand, cool, and form a multitude of smaller singularities that could hit other of its type and become unstable as a larger singularity and once again expand.
Every element but hydrogen was created inside stars. The huge forces inside a star causes atoms to fuse together to create new atoms.
KayBeeEee1983 2 months ago
I never though I was ever going to find a youtuber who talks about philosophy :D. I always wanted, and sometimes still want, to do that, but my spoken english kind of sucks, that's why I don't do it. :\. BTW, there can still be uranium today without problem, since in can be reformed inside the stars. If u mean that eventually uranium will stop existing, the answer for that is yes.
rolingpingu 8 months ago
Some years ago me and my buddy was asked 'what is time' for som theatre project. We just sat there as two question marks. Next time i'll meet him i'm gonna impress him by quating this video. I can even elaborate :-)
Thank you
pjohn5 1 year ago
finite things or events need movement and events need a cause infinite regression can only happen if time didin't move foward but backwards which still means that infinite regression needs a starting point (cause). And movement needs to be moved by something outside it like gravity moving a stream or someones lungs to blow moving air (cause again). the on going process (either regression or digression) needs a one arrowed direction or you won't get regression or digression. it still needs God
starsheild7 1 year ago
owchywawa: Infinite regression is impossible
starsheild7 1 year ago
wait a minute how can events keep moving in the direction of the past since the only direction that time moves is foward, its not like events reverse in time, were not reversing in time are we? Can time move backwards and fowards at the same time? Time has to move, like a stream of water, obviously a stream can't move fowards and backwards at the same time or else you don't have a stream of water, the same has to go with time, like the stream of water, the on going process needs 1 direction.
starsheild7 1 year ago
An actual infinite is "a collection of definite and discrete members whose number is greater then any natural number" and a potential infinite is a collection that is increasing toward infinity as a limit but never gets there. So I think the definition you have of actual vs potential is inaccurate.
The argument is that actual infinities can not exist in the real world, this is exposed by the logical absurdities that result from thought experiments like Hilbert's hotel.
95TurboSol 2 years ago
We can get there after an infinite amount of time. Try this: Move across your room one meter traversing one infinitesimal space at a time and message me when your done. Don't tell me an actual meter cannot exist.
I am considering making a Hilbert's Hotel rebuttal, but that would require a video. The paper I gave has rebuttals to similar arguments which should do for now.
owchywawa 2 years ago
Hey, owchywawa.
The problem is you can't reach an actual infinite "after" an infinite amount of time elapses because you cannot reach an actual infinite by successive addition, you can always add one more member before reaching infinity. You then explained that you can only if the past is infinite with no starting point, but this is even more of a problem not less, If you cannot count to infinity how then can you count down from infinity?
95TurboSol 2 years ago
@95TurboSol Thats his point dumbo.
Sugardaddy501 1 year ago
What is the proof that that time has always continued and what is a proof that there was always an event. in past..
even if there is no God even then one need to prove THE BACK WORD CONTINUITY of events
maliir 2 years ago
Aww, you were going so well until the end!
While I don't necessarily agree that the universe is infinite, a god wouldn't be required even if it was. Assuming that the universe is infinite, and radioactive decay and entropy WILL grind the universe to a halt, that doesn't mean "God" is necessary, just a mechanism that can reverse decay. You can choose to call this mechanism "God" if you wish, but it would be dishonest as the word carries extra connotations that aren't necessarily true.
NoeLPZC 2 years ago
I was trying to point VenomFangX in a better direction; not because I think there is proof of God in that direction, but because I knew VenomFangX would not be open to the idea that there is no proof of God's existence. So, rather than have him repeating the same flawed argument, as he has in the past, I thought it would be best to try to lead him to find new arguments. So, it was a debate tactic not an argument for the existence of God lol.
owchywawa 2 years ago
Heh, fair enough =P Have you been keeping up with the VFX drama lately? dprjones has agreed to not press charges if Shawn gets psychological counselling, but lordhathor is still gunna sue the crap out of him. It's all very fun.
NoeLPZC 2 years ago
I didn't know about lordhathor :P Hopefully shawn learns from this.
owchywawa 2 years ago
I FGod is in time then time is either a sequence of events or time is a measuree of changes. then either God is in a sequence of events or God is in the measure of CHANGES. Why Time is not in God and why God is in time?
maliir 2 years ago
Yeah, read my other comment I made to your first comment. If that still doesn't answer it for you, explain the difference between in time and time in. I don't understand what you mean.
owchywawa 2 years ago
Comment removed
maliir 2 years ago
The only reason I said God is in time is because VenomFangX created this imaginary place which he calls outside of time. A better way of putting it, I think, is that God is a part of time. There isn't really an in or out there just is time and you can't say time is in God because it is hypothetically possible that time could exist without God (ignoring how time got here in the first place of course).
owchywawa 2 years ago
VenomFangX in short, is his own worst enemy!!!
SETIat1420MHz 2 years ago
No one is conscious of ever NOT having lived, nor is anyone ever conscious of no longer living. In our minds we live forever, because our mind is what gives us conscience.
We still die and forever stay dead. No one has ever come back, and no one stuck around forever. All living things are condemned to death at birth. It's called reality.
Mortality is a terrible thing only to those who insist that make believe alternate realities (aka fantasies) is the way to go. Reality is my way of life!
thursdaysrecords 2 years ago
I think also another way to put it, is that God is trancendant of the physical laws of this Universe. In Christian theology, God was there before everything existed. Time as you mentioned, and I am paraphrasing, is not an actual thing. It is a tool that finite beings use to measure things. Time as many people have put it in mags, on youtube etc. has no real meaning on a universal, galactic, or even planetary scale. Only when you get down to the finite concious level does "time" mean anything.
arktheball 2 years ago
I'm not sure what you are responding to because that is pretty much my argument. I think it's perfectly within reason to have infinite time with no beginning.
owchywawa 2 years ago
Srry Owchywawa (great name btw), I agree with you. Now I just want to again reiterate that time is not an actual thing. It is simply how we segment the decay of our bodies if you will. A way to effectivly devide up the day for work purposes, and general life. God is infinite and "outside of time" in that He has no begining or end . He isnt finite, so for lack of a better way to put it, He isnt on a time clock, so the passing of events holds little meaning, as it would and does for us.
arktheball 2 years ago
To me it sounds like we need to define our starting point here. Time as in the pasing of events, and time the way we increment our finite existence. When ever an action takes place, you have to be able to say when it happend. Now if God is inifinite then that siply means he had no begining. He exists now, before, and in the future. This is of course in relation to this finite universe. In relation to everything in this universe he didnt begin with it. He is priori, during and ante dium
arktheball 2 years ago
God created time! Time is in His hands.
CalebMantooth 2 years ago
the earth will not end but some thing critical with happen the recent dicovery of PLANET X lead to belive that planet x's orbit take 3650yrs for it to go 1 round and every round that planet x make a mass extinction of 90% of the orgamisms will be extinct and debre tha folow planet x will hit the earth for an example metors comits and so forth the next time planet x will pass is u guessed it 2012 but the true question is will humans survive better make plans for ur last day
ZangetsoXYZ 2 years ago
"No the universe will end the only question science has is how it will end."
Why do you think that?
owchywawa 2 years ago
If you have PROOF that God is real, then why do people need FAITH?
If heaven is so much better than Earth, why are we born here on Earth?
If God is perfect, why is the Bible riddled with mistakes He made?
Isn't religion all about living forever in some sort of paradise? It appeals to man's greed, while keeping him in line with threats of eternal torment.
I've read the entire Bible and my conclusion is that Scripture was written by profoundly flawed humans, to exploit and control.
thursdaysrecords 2 years ago
"If you have PROOF that God is real, then why do people need FAITH?"
You are the one who "read the entire Bible." Why don't you quote the verse which says we need faith that God is real.
"If heaven is so much better than Earth, why are we born here on Earth?"
Because your parents lived on the earth?
"why is the Bible riddled with mistakes He made?"
Mistakes are in the eye of the beholder.
"Isn't religion all about living forever in some sort of paradise?"
No. It's about being a servant.
owchywawa 2 years ago
name one mistake the Bible made.
no, hell isnt a threat. its a punishment for sinning. yes, denying God is a sin. if you kill someone, shouldnt you be punished? well why should u be punished? because God created you and created the laws. you cant argue with the laws no matter how much you dont like them, you just have to abide by them.
if the Bible was written to control, why did Jesus and others in the book teach about being kind to others more than Him being the way? is that evil now?
nateindahood777 2 years ago
For the same reason you still need faith to accept that your parents ARE your birth parents. Because at some point you have to trust, or take it on faith if you will, that the data, or "proof," they are showing you to support their claim, is good enough. And it is at THAT point, that you have exercised faith my friend. I hope this was a clear analogy :)
arktheball 2 years ago
"Then declare that because you don't realize that Uranium is made from supernovae of the stars that were here before Sol,"
I already knew that. In fact, I reference that in a video on polonium halos I made. Either way I don't know how that leads to this:
"that must explain God's existence?"
Huh?
owchywawa 2 years ago
"The universe isn't infinite, the concept of time is, but the universe will eventually die and there are several theories on how that will take place."
Well, technically energy can neither be created or destroyed so the universe will always exist. It may not have existed forever, but I think something in it must have in order for the universe to have been started in the first place.
owchywawa 2 years ago
I respect your point and think this video is very good as an argument for infinite time vs. absolute time with God living outside time, good video but if time is infinite (and of course it is) then the universe was, logically, existing infinitely. The universe depends on time, as all things do, and it just seems to me the logical thing would be that something was always here...The universe never "started". It just is. Maybe I'm wrong
seestickglue232 2 years ago
"but if time is infinite (and of course it is) then the universe was, logically, existing infinitely."
Right. What I mean by the universe is the known universe. I think whatever started the known universe must be part of the universe.
owchywawa 2 years ago
An infinite past is not logically impossible and was in fact an integral part of the popular Steady State model of the universe before the Big Bang model ultimately prevailed.
However, the Big Bang model to which most current atheists adhere neither assumes nor requires an infinite past and it is understood that time did not exist "before" the Big Bang.
Shawn's argument against an infinite past has its flaws but even if valid, it would not prove God and might as well support the Big Bang.
AntiChrist67 3 years ago
True. It might be evidence for God if the Bible specifically claimed time had a beginning and that God exists outside of time, but it doesn't, so this isn't evidence for God (or the big bang) either way.
I was trying to get him to think logically one step at a time, but he doesn't seem interested as he ignored my video response.
It seems more likely that the universe was eternal to me, but I could be wrong.
owchywawa 3 years ago
u can definately tell his arguement doesn't make sense but its hard 2 explain and you've done a good job
southparkXD1 3 years ago
I'm a Christian and I don't think of it that way.
"God's actions are simultaneous at all points of time."
If God did do everything as if it was instantly, how does that translate to certain times in our universe? The only way that can happen is if God is some how connected with time.
owchywawa 3 years ago
While you're interpretation of 'God without time' makes sense in the context of VFX's argument, it's important to remember that God as Christians understand that He exists at all times simultaneously (hence God is omniscient).
Ergo, while Man may percieve creation and crucifixion as two events seperated by time, God's actions are simultaneous at all points of time.
That said, I'll try read the God within time article at some point.
blackemerald 3 years ago
The universe was all as a singularity with out the laws of physics and will expand, cool, and form a multitude of smaller singularities that could hit other of its type and become unstable as a larger singularity and once again expand.
TABOOVSKNOWLEDGE 3 years ago