The Abraham Papyrus is an absurd fraud and easily disproved. An embarrassment to the Hierarchy . This joke is what Joe conjured up out of his perception of Real Egyptian. He was wrong 100% of the time! Statistically significant but in the wrong direction. So, how much error is there in the Book of Mormon, translated from non existent "reformed" Egyptian for which not a scintilla of evidence exists. And translated with the plates outside and his head in his hat with his pet rock!?
Great video. Joseph Smith was a very cunning liar, and created quite a Satanic Trap with his Book of Mormon. By the time he was writing the Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants though, he seems to have been totally done even trying to remain in a semi Biblical realm. The D&C looks to me like a book of Joseph playing God, and trying to tell everyone they had better do what Joseph wants because "God" said so.
Hey, Genius. There are hieroglyphs embedded in the pictures themselves. The most obvious (and simple) example is the Eye of Horus. There are seven hieroglyps which make up the Eye of Horus. These hieroglyphs spell 'to make or do' or 'one who does.' This technique has been used in Arabic, Chinese Han Zi, and Japanese Kanji for thousands of years. I'm sure you already knew that, didn't you, Professor Knowitall?
Yeah, how about that adam and eve were in the USA (joseph smith's) and what about poor old "shek" some dumb old dead indian, that JS lied about, also!
Almost 90 percent of these scrolls are gone in the fire. How could you pretend to understand the entirety with a tiny peaces of cloth. No egyptologist would make a scolarly overview with so little evidence. I found out these experts are members of your church. Oh now I get it!!!
No mormon will quit his church over this deception. It is well known that "non mormon" egyptologists reveal abraham written directly on the facsimile. Real Egypologists declare that the figure on the couch is (alive, not a dead mummy.) His legs are raising in the air for pete sake! His arms are animated. No real egyptologist would be so stupid as to not know this scolarly fact as you pretend in your video.
You have deceived people. No egyptologist would sign onto saying this had nothing to do with abraham when real egyptologists have published that same lion couch depiction on facsimile 1,yes, with abrahams name in arabic written under neath it. This is published and known world wide. You hope people are stupid obviously by omiting these facts.Shame on you.
Therflo - I'm sorry your inability to answer a simple question has caused you to resort to name-calling. I repeat, only LDS robots think any "proof" of the BOM exists.
Given the eagerness with which the church has rushed to show off its "proof" (all fraudulent upon examination - Book of Abraham scroll, Hoffman letters, etc), if the LDS had anything they'd be shouting. They still don't (after 150 yrs of searching) but not to worry - Saints are not known for asking questions.
Believe whatever you want to believe. There are people who watched Christ physically raise Lazarus from the dead and denied what had just happened. So, not matter what is physically there, you will still hold to your beliefs.
Also would it kill you to stop using straw-man arguments. It makes you look like a religious fanatic. Also the church is not sharing any evidence; 75% of all known artifacts have been seized by the church.
Therflo - If Lazarus was true it would be the greatest miracle in history yet Mark, Luke & Matthew never mention it! Why?
The sentence "75% of all known artifacts have been seized by the Church" is, of course, preposterous. No one - least of all Saints - has a clue what's been bought & hid - not from the public but its members. (Lying for the Lord once more) The LDS ruling regime alters doctrine, denies evidence (then admits it), rules by "revelation" & the Saints never blink an eye
Therflo - I have a suggestion. Why not simply say you believe because you feel it. What religion would buy and hide incriminating docments about its history and founder? Oops, I forgot - that's LDS official policy.
Far better fto say you believe despite a complete lack of evidence for anything in the BOM except a few artifacts accepted only by the LDS. An argument from faith is actually stronger than an argument from evidence when none exists.
Therflo - Re: Fossilized remains, Pics of swine, cattle / "tahtanka" (why didn't god give JS the right name?), Olmec iron ores, etc - these are only important IF you find any of the following: Grand cities & fortifications Huge ships Cement structures Smelters (pre-European) Steel swords, weapons,& chariots Wheels (!) BONES (!!!) One example of "Egyptian" writing Highways And please, if you respond, leave the Hopewells alone. Give that poor tribe a much-deserved rest.
"It's hard to swallow the whole racist song and dance."
A Negro looks as though he has been put in an oven and burnt to a cinder.... His hair baked crisp, his nose melted to his face, and the color of his eyes runs into the whites. Some men look as if they had only been burned brown; but he appears to have gone a stage further, and been cooked until he was quite black.
- From Caucasian to Negro, quoted in Bush, Mormonisms Negro Doctrine: An Historical Overview, pp. 57-58, endnote #99
It's hard to swallow the whole racist song and dance. Considering Joseph Smith was the first Presidential Candidate with an anti-slavery platform.
Funny you should mention the snake saga. It's also genetically impossible for a snake with legs to produce legless offspring. Biblical accounts are full of impossibilities, such as a man stopping time. The mark was set upon him, his lands, and people (decendants). There are many curses within scripture.
So now, facts and science fail, the pieces to your puzzle do not fit together, so now you whip out the give way to mystical hocus-pocus to explain the genetic impossibilities.
Therflo - I hope you realize how ridiculous this Hopewell nonsense is. Why should the only evidence be questonable artifacts from a single tribe. Again, what about the huge cities ih vast kingdoms, armies of millions, steel words & mining (as well as nonexistent plants & animals - lol). Ah, the BOM.
Using this "logic", UFOs exist because of a fuzzy picture in 1956, Or Jesus is real beccause he's a cracker. This insults anyone with intellectual honest. Back to the Dead Sea Scrolls - lol
Why should the only evidence in the clip be an opinion from a single egyptologist? Cities kingdoms, armies of millions, metal works and mines all existed when Cortez and Columbus arrived. Give examples of nonexistant life mentioned. Or perhaps you lack of intellect is an insult to humanity...
Therflo- I feel like the village atheist talking to the village idiot. Historical cities are unlike BOM cities - they exist. Read something besides LDS tracts.
A short list of BOM bloopers- horse, pig, ox, silk, barley, wheat, wine, fortifications, brass, iron, egyptian speech, cement, books, synagogues,chariots, swords & great buildings with gold & silver.
The LDS now claims the BOM writer used different terms., So why didn't god correct it when he provided JS the translation? LOL
Fossilized horse remains have been found in the US. Pictographs of swine have been found. Also native americans had cattle called "tahtanka". Also several tons of worked iron ores were found at the Olmec site of San Lorenzo Tenochtitlán, in southern Mexico. No mention of Egyptian speech in the BOM. The many Hopewell mounds were used for religious and funneral sevices. Native structures dot all of the americas, large amounts of gold were taken by Cortez. LOL
therflo13 wrote about Hopewell Indians & the Dead Sea Scrolls. How are they related to the BOM? Archaeologists, with evidence and research, report a different history than the LDS line. But most importantly, these views are supported by other areas of science - history, botany, linguisticis, zoology and genetics.
Here's the crux - Either all these folks are completely wrong or the BOM is right. The degree of self-delusion among the Saints is frightening and pitiful.
Fortifications made by the Hopewell match the construction techniques and gegraphical locaton mentioned in the BOM. Also parts of the Dead Sea Scrolls match parts of the BOM.
Be the first in your Stake to own "Reformed Egyptians For Dummies!!" You'll be the envy of your Ward!!
Your "Reformed Egyptian For Dummies" kit includes a new off-gassing hat, your very own set of magic rocks, and a shiny set of electroplated gold tablets!!
It's not just the physical evidence. It's the idea that a possibly mythic religious hero would write a document for a civilization he did not know existed. Fuerthermore, that this document would appear 4,000 yrs later at the exact time a hick farmer was attempting to set up a new religion.
At the end of the day, people believe what they want to believe based on their own perceptions of reality and truth.Fortunately enough I was born with a thinking brain that enables me to listen and study both sides of the argument and then decide.
Interesting Side note: Dr.Robert Ritner was a Psychology graduate that went on to do a PhD in Egiptology after various appointments(some relevant others not).title of Phd thesis was "The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magical Practice".You decide..
I trust faithful Mormon spokemen. What does it matter that they know nothing of ancient Egypt or their conclusions are rejected by everyone else?
DNA , linguistics, archeology are wrong, the various versions from Smith can be reconciled & I will be a big bad ruler of my own harem, uh, planet later on. I mean, isn't that the way it's supposed to work? If the evidence contradicts faith then it's not true. LOL
Interesting you speak as if you are certain when for all the world knows all egyptologist could be completely ignorent of the egyptian language. Who's to say that the Rosetta stone was even a correct translation? True meaning can be lost with even the best interpreters. Mistakes are made today and they were made in Egypt as well. Not to mention that 2 of the languages on the stone were only fragments. One of which was egyptian... What are the odds? You do the math!
(1) A hick farmer who chatted with God, Jesus & Moses & whose "copy" of reform-egyptian was a laughing stock.
(2) Those who studied & wrote books on Egyptian, who lived there & teach / run museums.
Mormons choose #1, If ignorance is bliss you are on cloud 9. The Rosetta contained HISTORICAL languages. Reformed Egyptian (lol) is as real as the battle of Comorrah 1600 yrs ago that left no trace of weapons or bones of millions of warriors.
(1) Someone who translated an unprecedented dialect in less than 2 months, who organized a community, was the face of currency, and a US presidential candidate.
(2) Those who only have part of one translation of one interpreter's writting.
Also last I checked there were more than 33,000 artifacts cataloged that support the Book of Mormon. Finds concerning the Hopewell indians to be specific.
therflo - This urban myth is so...pitiful. The Smithsonian, in a letter refuting LDS claims that the institute used the BOM for research purposes, noted that no artifact withstood scientific examination and no MidEast connection had been found in the New World - North & South.
They also noted that large armies & huge cities in the BOM left zero evidence - a nice was of saying it's bogus. The blatant plagarism of entire Bible chapters by Smith easily disproves the BOM's authenticity.
So you are saying that the Hopewell indian did not exist? Interesting...
Also by that logic you must also cosider the Dead Sea Scroll's authenticity disproved considering that both the BOM and DSS have portions that match the Bible.
What you conveniently neglect to mention is that NONE of these so-called "evidences" have withstood scrutiny by ANY group of Nonpartisan experts. The ONLY so-called "experts" who have "authenticated" these so-called "artifacts" are LDS shillsters who hold no credibility outside of MormonLand!!
"MormonLand" I'm assuming you mean Utah. You should divert more focus to Michigan. Have they ever been put through scrutiny by any "nonpartisan" experts.
The Smithsonian's primary methods include gathering around and artifact and asking "Does this look Native American to you guys". How scientific...
"MormonLand" refers to the dillusional world of LDS.
.
Therflo Wrote:
The Smithsonian's primary methods include gathering around and artifact and asking "Does this look Native American to you guys". How scientific... As for your attacks upon the credibility of Smithsonian, your comments are as bereft of facts and substance as any of the other snide, asinine comments you've made.
The Smithsonian has rejected artifacts due to their complexity. Instead of using any form of science to reject Native American artifacts depicting Christ, they simply stated that they were too complex to be Native American.
Allegedly the thirty thousand artifacts are a hoax made by two deceased men.
Speaking of deceaced, why did you use the former church president's name? What you couldn't come up with anything of the current church leader's name?
The Smithsonian has rejected artifacts due to their complexity. Instead of using any form of science to reject Native American artifacts depicting Christ, they simply stated that they were too complex to be Native American.
Outlaw - "Lying for the Lord" is central to the LDS. The church has a long sordid history of dealing with fakes & forgeries in their desperate search for proof. And yet we're told on Yourube that proof exists if only that pesky Smithsonian would get their act together and stop with the complexity business. (hilarious).
Given the size of the civilizations described in the BOM, tons of evidence should be around for evaluation. It's almost pathetic the lengths gone to justify a lie.
Hears the crux only 797 items were thought to be made by Scotford and Soper. So, either they came back to life and created thousands of other artifacts, or the mounds and fortifications that are in the BOM were made by the Hopewell.
Hmm... So, you can't disprove it... Wikipedia+ Michigan Relics. James Scotford and Daniel Soper are mentioned in this entry. They take the blame for the fakes... So, that leaves the other 29,203 items.
Someone too slow to understand a search engine probably worships wiki. So, until you extraodinary evidence is provided to debunk anything I'll be waiting...
You seem to be suggesting that Wikipedia holds greater credibility than the Smithsonian Institute; guess it's also more credible than national Geographic Society, or ant CA Ministry of Antiquities.
The fact is that LDS claims that Cain was marked with a "curse" of black skin and a flat nose. There is no mention of a woman being similarly marked.
That would leave no "cursed" woman to mate with, and without that, the "curse" could not be handed down.
You are so predictable. The nonpartisan expert is a professor at the University of Chicago. You know the same university the egyptologist from the clip works. Perhaps you should have read it. Don't act like we're playing Texas hold em.
Frederick Starr of the University of Chicago was the nonpartisan professor. He agreed tha the 797 artifacts rejected by the LDS church were made by Scotford and Soper.
If I use straws... does that mean you use a sippy cup?
Frederick Starr of the University of Chicago was the nonpartisan professor. He agreed tha the 797 artifacts rejected by the LDS church were made by Scotford and Soper.
If I use straws... does that mean you use a sippy cup?
And this professor's findings have been peer reviewed and authenticated by whom??
You seem moreinterested in smart-ass replies than you are in substance. I have asked some very specific questions, and made a very specific point that discredits BoM.
The LDS church also had it translated from a different Egyptologist and they came up with the same translation that the first Egyptologists had.
Did you know that Pres Hinkley and the TWELVE were in serious discussion over the possible decision to no longer have QUADS? Those thick combo scriptures that LDS love so much. BIBLE Book Of Mormon, D&C, Pearl Of Great Price.
...THE METRO. MUSEUM OF ART IN NEW YORK CITY GAVE THE PAPYRI TO THE MORMON CHURCH AS A GIFT WITH AN AUTHENTICATED RECEIPT FROM EMMA SMITH, ONE OF JOSEPH SMITH'S WIVES TO VERIFY THAT THE PAPRRI WRE THE ORIGINAL PAPYRI SMITH USED TO "TRANSLATE" THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM ...EVERY MORMON SHOULD ALSO SEE ON THIS SITE: THE UNTOLD STORY OF THE DEATH OF JOSEH SMITH"...fascinating stuff, mormon history...
do yourself a favor, go to your local Barnes & Noble, look for an Egyptian grammer book (mines had the kids edition), buy it, then go to local library, check out a copy of the Egyptian "Book of the Dead", check for any familiar sections to the BoA
see for yourself
Champollion had the Rosetta Stone to help him
Joe Smith made his grammar up, check that out its available also
now, transliteration is easy, (changing hieroglyphs for Latin characters)
do yourself a favor, go to your local Barnes & Noble, look for an Egyptian grammer book (mines had the kids edition), buy it, then go to local library, check out a copy of the Egyptian "Book of the Dead", check for any familiar sections to the BoA
see for yourself
Champollion had the Rosetta Stone to help him
Joe Smith made his grammar up, check that out its available also
now, transliteration is easy, (changing hieroglyphs for Latin characters)
Sorry this vid is pure propaganda. There was a group of about ten egyptolgists that worked on the project. Only three of them disagreed with the Joseph Smith translation. Those three made this propaganda video. The rest knew what they were doing.
Of the egyptologist only one agreed to be interviewed on camera. Last I checked he still works at the University of Chicago. Unfortunatly for the credibility of the documentary he is the only egyptologist to comment on camera. You can find the information on the documentary's website.
What are you drinking? In 1912, 8 leading scholars examined Smith's drawings & reported unanimously that the "translation" was a fraud.
Recently, the church made the mistake of asking John Wilson, Klaus Baer & Richard Parker to translate the found scroll. The report is devastating; Smith knew no Egyptian.. Now the church is pushing a "spiritual translation" despite Smith's own markings!! LOL
We're lucky the sale was public or it would have disappeared like other documents.
jjones1987; your rhetoric is perfect Mormon nonspeak. exactly like the 'manuscript found' dialogue engaged in by the Mormon Herarchy to obfuscate truth. eschew obfuscation...MORMONISM IS PROVABLY FALSE. AND THIS IS THE EASIEST PROOF.False Theology/interpretations like this lead to MOUNTAIN MEADOWS MASSACRE and many such ritual sacrafices for selfish gain.
This video makes the assertion that non-LDS scholars were the first ones to translate the newly found papyri, in fact after the LDS church received the scrolls they had them translated right away and then announced that they were not the Book of Abraham. Also you can see that the discussion of the video was purely one sided and biased against the church. To be clear, ounce the church had translated the papyri, they made facsimiles for all to see and examine themselves!
After all, you subscribe to a church that teaches that "it's better for a girl to be returned to her parens in a casket than it is for her to lose her virginity 7 chastity by succumbing to a rapist.
LDS also aids and comforts girls & women who HAVE ben raped by having a Stakr Priest od Bisopric meet with her to assess HER degree of blame and culpability for allowing the violation to occur, or for "intiting it".
This video is to Mormonism like finding the tomb of Jesus, WITH his actual bones, would be like to Christianity. Still, though, I presented the three numbered and labeled facimilies to my Mormon cousin who tried to get me back into Mormonism, and, guess what? He's still a very on fire Mormon. Faith truly is blind.
"CASTE SYSTEMS have their ROOT and ORIGIN in the GOSPEL itself, when they operate according to DIVINE DECREE, the resultant restrictions and SEGREGATION ARE RIGHT AND PROPER AND HAVE THE APPROVAL OF THE LORD. To illustrate: Cain, Ham, and the whole Negro race HAVE BEEN CURSED WITH A BLACK SKIN, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a CASTE APART, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry."
We shouldn't judge marraige practices of past generations by today's standards since they had different customa and laws.
OoohhhKAY, Ahay!!
So we IGNORE the emotional gab between a grown man and a pubescent teenager?? So, loke your prophet Joseph, Smith, you argee that "if they're old enough to bleed, then they're old enough to breed"??
So what edition of "Dateline NBC: To Catch A Predator" did YOU guest star on??
IF Joseph Smith married a 14 year old, why is that bad? 14 year old girl is NOT pre pubescent, she's a young woman. Girls can start puberty young betweem 9-13 yrs old. Show me laws in the bible that forbid marriage to 14 year olds. Show me civil laws from 1800's that forbid it. History shows young teens could marry, the Roman law allowed 12 year old girs to marry & US laws allowed 12-14 year olds to marry. Infact, nowdays 14 year olds can marry with parent or court permission in many places.
If you are incapable of comprehending the emotional differences and differences in maturity between a grown man, and a very young teen age girl, then I mean no sarcasm here; I seriously hope that you lomit your contact with children.
By arguing against me, you're condemning YOUR own country that allowed young marriage. You're condemning American politians that allowed it. You have the weight of history against you. Why would a 14yr old be emotionally retarded? Teens often grow up looking after young siblings, playing the role of mother. I obey todays civil laws regarding marriage. There's no paedeophilia about it.
You are ignoring the emotional developmental differences between a 14y/o girl, and a grown man.
Or else, you don't see that difference as a problem, which is (no joke here) a very, VERY common trait found in sexual predators; the defense that you use, "Well, it used to be legal, and in some places, it still is" is another refrain that they often use to justify their conduct.
Good reason to keep my daughter away from Mormon men.
Mormons today live by TODAY's law of marriage. I'm saying, the civil law of PAST generations allowed young marriage, so they can't be labelled predators or paedophiles.
Re: "The "standards of today" vs. "the standards of yesterday"
You refuse to address the difference in emotional & sexual maturity levels between a man in his mid-twenties as opposed to those of a 14y/o girl.
If you had any experience dealing with the sex offenders of today, you would see that the parallels of your justifications & theirs frighteningly similar.
RE maturity levels. How do you know they weren't mature to become a housewife? What kind of maturity do they need? Children were sent into the workforce young. Why being a housewife any different? What about the extended family lending a hand & giving advice?
People have married young (early teens) for thousands of years: Romans, Europeans, americans & other races around the world. They didn't think the same as you. I searched the web for evidence of young teen marriage, you'd be shocked if you bother to reasearch. Again, I'm talking PAST generations who were allowed to marry young. I'm not talking about today..(in my country 18 years is the minimum marriage age..any younger needs parent/court approval).
We've already discussed leagal/traditional ages of marraige.
Again, you conveniently ignore the differences in physical, mental, emotional, and sexual maturity levels between a 14y/o girl, and a man in hids mid 20's.
Smith sought out young girls for the same reasons sexual predatorss seek out young children today.
If Joseph Smith believed that what he was doing was not wrong, them please explain why he felt the need to lie to his wife Emma about his pedophilic philandering, disguised as "polygamy".
Since, as you suggest, "the standards of today vs. the standards of testerday", then why should the LDS dictums of days past apply today??
Emma was told to accept plural marriage by Revelation given to Joseph: "And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me.." D&C 132:52. So, obviously Emma knew about plural marriage (even if she didn't like it).
Joseph Smith, that wonderful and amazing man who did so much for all humanity, is not here to explain the details of his processes. Our Heavenly Father is. And He says the Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Book of Mormon are true. His word is worth more to me than any one else's!
Joseph Smith, the great and wonderful pedophile who, as a grown man, had sex w/ 14y/o girls, the philandering Casanova For Christ who lied to his wife about his infidelity, all disguised as polygamy.
Smith was a liar, a fraud, and there is not one word of truth to BoM.
What was the minimum age for marriage during the 1800's?? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was 14 for boys and 12 for girls (with parent approval). Therefore marriage of a 14yr old was not immoral at the time.
Teen marriage has been practiced for thousands of years. GO LEARN HISTORY before you condemn people. You're showing yourself to be incredibly stupid, perhaps we should investigate your background and your church. Should we also go into King Solomon's 700 wives and King Davids wives and affairs as well?
I don't care what the average age of marriage was. I'm talking about the LEGAL MINIMUM AGE of marriage. Twelve US states allowed 12 / 14yr olds to marry. If you don't believe me that teens married young, google teen marriage. Learn the facts of history.
You see the legal age as being the defining measure; you conveniently IGNORE the differences in physical, sexual, & emotion maturity that exist between a grown man and a 14y/o girl. Smith was a predator looking foe an east target.
Here you are, a goos Mormon, with your beloved "prophet" who believed that "if she's old enough to bleed, then she's old enough to breed.
OK Mr know-it-all, Where are Joseph Smith's marriage records so we can see for ourselves? (Quote references and file numbers etc.) Don't tell me some haters website, I need authentic documents and records. Emma Smith KNEW about plural marriage, whether she liked it or not. Emma drifted away from the Church and joined with RLDS founded by dissenters, she also sold off Book of Abraham manuscripts. How do you know J.Smith lied? Where you there? It seems Emma became weak in the faith, not Joseph.
i love nothing more then knowledge and hearing boths ides of the arguments so I encourage Mormons to defend their beliefs with scripture so I can decide what i believe.
Keep up posting the vids this is very informative.
Those websites can be a starting point for your research. Here's another one: w w w.the-book-of-mormon. com You can find links to other sources if you bother to look. Use your internet search, you might learn something.
I've spent several years doing LDS Research, been to all of the websites. Ironically, THAT was what lead me to discover the truth behind the LDS scam.
You believe every far reaching excuse LDS has to offer.
As for me? I live in the world of objective scrutiny, research, and critical analysis.
Encarta dictionary says reformed means 'improved'. Similar words in the Thesaurus are: rehabilitated, transformed, changed, converted, renewed, new, improved" <b>According to those definitions, Hieratic & DEMOTIC could be called "Reformed Egyptian."
Ahay321: "....Heiratic & Demotic "could be" called Reformed Egytian.
Here, once again, we get into the endless qualifiers of LDS, and the apologists attempts to support it.
Read the bible, and thee term "could be" is completely unneccessary.
Once again, Egyptologists have had NO problem translating the Papparus; yet, NON of them support the endless flow of excuses and qualifiers that flow from LDS, and the endless "what if", or "could be" hoops.
Let me rephrase: Hieratic and Demotic are reformed Egyptian. Maybe you should learn english definitions of "reformed". Nephites had their own version of Reformed Egyptian as explained by Moroni: "And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech." Mormon 9:32
First of all, there was no Moroni; Moroni is a completely fictional character.
Secondly , NOWHERE o/s of LDS Dreamland, Inc. will you find ANY anthropologists or linguistic experts who will validate the claims that you have made here.
ahay321: "Hieratic and Demotic are reformed Egyptian"
So why when people today look at the "BoM Caracters" facsimiles (available online- google it) do the chracters in no way resemble Egyptian. These aren't Hieratic or Demotic.
Why then M. Harris claim Prof. Anthon said they were egyptian when they aren't. Harris lied or Anthon was dead wrong. Either way the whole story is bogus.
Professor Charles Anthon was a suspect character, since he wrote a certificate saying the BoM translation was correct, then tore it up after learning an Angel showed Joseph Smith where the gold plates were. (See JS-H 1:64,65)
Outlaw said "Oh, so now it's both a Pagan Book of Breathings, decipphered by Egyptologists, AND written in a non-existant, never existed language called "Reformed Egyptian", all in the same text??"
That is exactly what ahay321 is saying, basically, the lost scrolls look and read like a burial papyri, but Joe Smith has these magical powers to see other languages, and topics....Gee Wizz !! ahay321 we need to talk about a bridge in NYC that I will sell you..
11 mummies were taken from a catacomb near Thebes, Egypt on June 7, 1831 by Antonio Lebolo. These were later obtained by Michael H. Chandler who found papyri pieces and rolls with the mummies. 4 Mummies and the papyri were purchased by members of the Church. Joseph Smith said "one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt, etc." (See History of the Church, volume 2)
There's more than meets the eye. That's why I suggest visiting that website, and others by LDS scholars and researches. And be wary of anti-mormon websites.
ahay said "ahay said "To find if the Book of Mormon is true: Read, ponder, and ask God.(see Moroni 10:3-5)"
So let me ask this question with all respect to you, (and I do respect your sharp mind, really) I have read, studied, pondered, about the book of Abraham, and have concluded that this vid is 99.99% correct. Am I wrong? Should I change my thinking? How should I change my thinking? Please show how this vid is wrong. Go ahead knock them dead.
This is not a game, life is at times too painful to goof around with. Nope my friend; they are not bleeding ketchup, that is real blood people are bleeding. The truth is important to me, the question of the validity of LDS is vital. So tell me what is the most important missing fact in your opinion?
continued: 5: Joseph Smiths scrolls were LONG extending throughout 2 rooms when rolled out on the floor. Are the fragments in this video? NO 5: Joseph Smith also translated documents without the physical document in front of him. For example: BOOK OF MOSES, AND JOSEPH SMITH TRANSLATION of the bible 6. Mormons & NON-MORMONS VIEWED THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM and reported on it. News papers reported on it claiming more than 2 scrolls.
Since we don't have all the documents Joseph Smith had we can speculate all day long. I've read through mountains of text on the subject, more than I can copy/paste here. Again, that's why I recommend visitig websites that go further into it, Studying the Book of Abraham, examine the doctrines & compare with bible. And above all Ask God as Apostle James directs. The ball is in your court.
ahay said "I recommend visiting websites ...The ball is in your court."
The sites are very defensive, and never go to the point. This vid still stands.
No; the ball is not in my court, you forget that I am the Christian, you are the Mormon. The true church of God was established at the beginning. It has lasted since then. You have swallowed Mormonism hook, line, and sinker. Gullibility is a virtue in Mormonism not Christianity.
Apparently Joseph Smith had these papyri: Book of Breathings belonging to Hor, son of Remnyqay and Taykhebit, a Book of the Dead belonging to Tasheritmin, a Book of the Dead belonging to Neferirnub, a hypocephalus belonging to Sheshonq, and a document belonging to Amenhotep, the son of Hor.Apparently there was a scroll written in hebrew and sanscrit with a diagram of a serpant with 2 legs standing on it's tail forming a tripod. Does this video show that? See what I mean about missing texts?
Thanks for the info, but honestly does more missing documents help the Mormon case? The Bible has virtually contemporaneous copies of the bible, both old and new. Mormons have misplaced everything. How can I buy into missing documents? Even though they sound Bible-ish... their content seems... well... phony. You do see that, don't you?
Joseph Smith stated there were 2 rolls of papyrus with 2 or 3 other small pieces of papyrus.(see History of the church volume 2) The Painsville Telegraph Newspaper reported there were 3 papyri rolls (March 27, 1835, entitled "Mummies,") What we have today is 11 FRAGMENTS from what J.Smith had.
The point I'm making is: Joseph Smith had more papyri than shown in this video. Some texts which are lost. That could explain the missing Book of Abraham text. As for the bible, we don't have any original bible manuscripts, only copies and translations. In fact there are many 'lost books' of the bible:
There is historical information, statements made by those who saw the papyri in J.Smiths day. The papyri was viewed by many people (educated people of the time) when Michael Chandler owned them (he toured America with his mummy/papyri exhibition). Smith also showed the papyri to both mormon and non-mormons, some of whom made statements. Mormon believe what the Book of Abraham claims to be, the writings of Abraham, translated by Joseph Smith.
We have 11 FRAGMENTS. Smith had a larger collection of papyri. Smith translated texts by inspiration/ prophetic means. He obviously saw truths in the hieroglyphs the Egyptologists don't see. Remember Abraham was from MESOPOTAMIA (CHALDEA), using egyptian style hieroglyps to explain HIS STORY. Yes, there's Egyptian pagan text mixed in. (It seems egyptians added their own text at some point.)
Oh, so now it's both a Pagan Book of Breathings, decipphered by Egyptologists, AND written in a non-existant, never existed language called "Reformed Egyptian", all in the same text??
I never said Book of Abraham was written in Reformed Egyptian, that's the Book of Mormon. Concerning facsimile 1, Abraham wrote: "That you may have an understanding of these gods, I have given you the fashion of them in the figures at the beginning, which manner of figures is called by the Chaldeans Rahleenos, which signifies hieroglyphics."
Abraham, from the land of the Chaldeans, is using hieroglyphics to explain HIS story. So we have an alternate meaning: ABRAHAMS MEANING. NOT AN EGYPTIANS MEANING as discribed by Egyptologists. Abraham wrote: "And it came to pass that the priests laid violence upon me, that they might slay me also, as they did those virgins upon this altar; and that you may have a knowledge of this altar, I will refer you to the representation at the commencement of this record." Abraham 1:12
If it was not written in the ficticious language of "Reformed Egyptian", (which immediately discredits BoM, then it would have been written in a language that egyptologists would have been able to translate.
No group of credible Egyptologists have ever proclaimed The Papparii to be anything but a Pagan funerial text.
"Lost books" mentioned in Bible: book of the Wars of the Lord (Num.21: 14); book of Jasher(Josh.10:13); 2Sam.1: 18); book of the acts of Solomon(1Kgs.11:41); book of Samuel the seer(1Chr.29:29); book of Gad the seer (1Chr.29:29); book of Nathan the prophet(1Chr.29:29; 2 Chr.9:29); prophecy of Ahijah(2Chr.9:29); visions of Iddo the seer(2 Chr.9:29; 2Chr.12:15; 2Chr.13: 22); book of Shemaiah (2Chr.12:15); book of Jehu (2 Chr.20:34); sayings of the seers (2Chr.33:19);
Yes there are Lost books throughout history, of all sorts. They have two differing attributes than the BOM.
1. they were not canonized,
2 If found they would remain found not conveniently lost again.
Other lost books does not mean that this vid is untrue, and certainly does not mean the BOM is true. Sooner or later the desire for the truth will overcome the desire to maintain status of a blind faith Mormon. You can see this right?
ahay said "To find if the Book of Mormon is true: Read, ponder, and ask God.(see Moroni 10:3-5)"
Lets just say, for the sake of argument that Joe Smith made the whole thing up, and lets just say there is no trace of the people, cultures, cities, or stories of the BOM. How do you know that your little vocie in you head is telling you the truth and my little voice is false? You do see why I think that your method is very dangerous, and may not lead to truth.
ahay, the question is this "is the BOM a true historical document?" If it is then the choise is; which LDS church is the one true church? I hate to tell you that the FLDS think they are the one true church, and the SLC church splintered off from them. and they read the BOM and Prayed to god and they really REALLY believe they are right. So who is right.
To find if the Book of Mormon is true: Read, ponder, and ask God.(see Moroni 10:3-5) After 1904 LDS Church banned polygamous marriages. Those found practicing it were excommunicated (expelled). Fundamentalist LDS church was formed by dissenters & polygamists who rejected the ban on polygamy. Certain leaders of this FLDS church where EXCOMMUNICATED from the LDS church.
ahay said "To find if the Book of Mormon is true: Read, ponder, and ask God.(see Moroni 10:3-5)"
This is a typical answer to any valid, reasonable question about Mormonism. And it is wrong, sometimes dead wrong. If just listening to your own heart is the way to truth, then any voice heard by anyone is just as valid as the other. See the problem? Mystics do this and claim to find "the truth". Why are you so sure your voice is as true as theirs?
Where does it say "listen to your own heart"?? The Apostle James said: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." James 1:5
ahay said "To find if the Book of Mormon is true: Read, ponder, and ask God.(see Moroni 10:3-5)"
Why is it not a good idea to test your thinking? Why is it not a good idea to see if there is any trace of the people, cities, culture or stories found in the BOM? Does not have to be every people, city, or culture, but say... hummmm.. how about many?
ahay said "ahay said "To find if the Book of Mormon is true: Read, ponder, and ask God.(see Moroni 10:3-5)"
How do you explain that my pondering, prayer, and study has lead me to the idea/faith that there is great doubt that the BOM is true? Was it the devil's work? Gods work? How can I know based on your method of obtaining the truth? Do you want me to just believe, because you say your right? That Joe Smith said he is right? How do you sort this out?
ahaye said "I suppose some things seem nutty to people who don't understand the ways of God."
To a great degree a Christian knows the ways of God it is the LDS that don't make sense at all, but claim they know God. Don't think you understand God at all.
ahay said "When Christ formed his church, it was led by the Apostles. They were ONE church, not many denominations. ONE church with many branches"
LDS is now the same thing !!! You have over 50 major branches from the LDS, and most of those are FLDS. this is because the SLC kept changing the doctrine of one true church to get more money. If the SLC LDS are the true one why do they change so much??? does God change???
Ancient church in Peters day were ONE church. The 'branches' belonged to ONE church led by Apostles . The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is ONE church in over 160 countries led by Prophets and Apostles. "50 Major branches from the LDS" you refer to are SPLINTER GROUPS not a part of the LDS Church with HQ in Salt Lake City.
ahay said "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is ONE church in over 160 countries led by Prophets and Apostles"
You are playing word games. let me show you your game by example: 'The Lutheran Church Missouri synod is ONE CHURCH. all other churches in the world are nothing but splinter groups of this, the one true church." See how that works??
Leaders of the LDS church are Apostles & Prophets. Apostle Paul wrote "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." (1 corinthians 12:28,29) What churches follow that biblical pattern?
Jesus said "the Law and the prophets were UNTIL JOHN"; there are no more prophets in the sense of added revelation to the Bible. An apostle is someone who actually SAW Christ. What remains is teachers, etc. Jesus said "Thy Word is Truth" God's Word says not to add to it. When I was Catholic I had to decide whether to believe God or my church's teachings. Since God cannot lie, my choice was to leave Catholicism and believe what God's Word. The question is whether you place man's word over God's.
There were more prophets after John the Baptist: Christ is a prophet (see Acts 3:22); Simeon Niger, Manean, Lucius & Saul where Prophets (Acts 13:1); Judas & Silas prophets (Acts 15:32). Future prophets will prophesy (Revelation 11:3-12) The true church has PROPHETS and APOSTLES.
Lutheranism was developed by Martin Luther a REFORMER, Ex-Catholic Augustinian monk. Although his intentions were good it seems, he was neither a Prophet nor Apostle. Lutheran Church Missouri Synod was formed by Lutheran PASTORS & members NOT Apostles & prophets.
Oh I see so the names of things makes the LDS the "one true church". That is kind of silly, especialy when there is no trace of the people, places, cities, and stories of the BOM. I think the Waltnesses have apostles & prophets, and my church has those too. So are you still the one true church?
and why did the LDS rewrite all of their doctrine? and why is it that the LDS hides its history? and why do you have secrets?
The Lutheran church may have been started by Martin Luther, but it is based on the Bible; it was a revolt against the unBiblical practices of Catholicism - such as indulgences, works based salvation, etc. It's "foundation" isn't Luther; he just returned the focus to Scripture. The Catholic church teaches they are the one true church; so do Jehovah's Witnesses. The truth is that the Church Christ founded is invisible since only God knows the heart.
if only it were that simple....if only.
kidlivene 2 weeks ago
The Abraham Papyrus is an absurd fraud and easily disproved. An embarrassment to the Hierarchy . This joke is what Joe conjured up out of his perception of Real Egyptian. He was wrong 100% of the time! Statistically significant but in the wrong direction. So, how much error is there in the Book of Mormon, translated from non existent "reformed" Egyptian for which not a scintilla of evidence exists. And translated with the plates outside and his head in his hat with his pet rock!?
IExposeMormonism 3 weeks ago
it doesnt take that much time and energy to KNOW smith and mormoms are full of sh.t,,,SORRY LOLOLOLOL
thebreze1 2 months ago
Great video. Joseph Smith was a very cunning liar, and created quite a Satanic Trap with his Book of Mormon. By the time he was writing the Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants though, he seems to have been totally done even trying to remain in a semi Biblical realm. The D&C looks to me like a book of Joseph playing God, and trying to tell everyone they had better do what Joseph wants because "God" said so.
carterfamily8903 10 months ago
Hey, Genius. There are hieroglyphs embedded in the pictures themselves. The most obvious (and simple) example is the Eye of Horus. There are seven hieroglyps which make up the Eye of Horus. These hieroglyphs spell 'to make or do' or 'one who does.' This technique has been used in Arabic, Chinese Han Zi, and Japanese Kanji for thousands of years. I'm sure you already knew that, didn't you, Professor Knowitall?
mormonmilitia 1 year ago
Yeah, how about that adam and eve were in the USA (joseph smith's) and what about poor old "shek" some dumb old dead indian, that JS lied about, also!
blugularis 1 year ago
Almost 90 percent of these scrolls are gone in the fire. How could you pretend to understand the entirety with a tiny peaces of cloth. No egyptologist would make a scolarly overview with so little evidence. I found out these experts are members of your church. Oh now I get it!!!
ShaunK181 1 year ago
No mormon will quit his church over this deception. It is well known that "non mormon" egyptologists reveal abraham written directly on the facsimile. Real Egypologists declare that the figure on the couch is (alive, not a dead mummy.) His legs are raising in the air for pete sake! His arms are animated. No real egyptologist would be so stupid as to not know this scolarly fact as you pretend in your video.
ShaunK181 1 year ago
You have deceived people. No egyptologist would sign onto saying this had nothing to do with abraham when real egyptologists have published that same lion couch depiction on facsimile 1,yes, with abrahams name in arabic written under neath it. This is published and known world wide. You hope people are stupid obviously by omiting these facts.Shame on you.
ShaunK181 1 year ago
I posted "Joseph Smith Should Have Known Better", showing Champollion was well known in 1833 I use Josiah Priest, "American Antiquities......."
IExposeMormonism 2 years ago
Therflo - I'm sorry your inability to answer a simple question has caused you to resort to name-calling. I repeat, only LDS robots think any "proof" of the BOM exists.
Given the eagerness with which the church has rushed to show off its "proof" (all fraudulent upon examination - Book of Abraham scroll, Hoffman letters, etc), if the LDS had anything they'd be shouting. They still don't (after 150 yrs of searching) but not to worry - Saints are not known for asking questions.
smb12321 2 years ago
Believe whatever you want to believe. There are people who watched Christ physically raise Lazarus from the dead and denied what had just happened. So, not matter what is physically there, you will still hold to your beliefs.
Also would it kill you to stop using straw-man arguments. It makes you look like a religious fanatic. Also the church is not sharing any evidence; 75% of all known artifacts have been seized by the church.
therflo13 2 years ago
Therflo - If Lazarus was true it would be the greatest miracle in history yet Mark, Luke & Matthew never mention it! Why?
The sentence "75% of all known artifacts have been seized by the Church" is, of course, preposterous. No one - least of all Saints - has a clue what's been bought & hid - not from the public but its members. (Lying for the Lord once more) The LDS ruling regime alters doctrine, denies evidence (then admits it), rules by "revelation" & the Saints never blink an eye
smb12321 2 years ago
Just as I suspected... you will hold to your beliefs no matter what evidence is presented.
Whether you want to accept reality or not is up to you. (at least I can always get a good laugh out of you)
therflo13 2 years ago
Therflo - I have a suggestion. Why not simply say you believe because you feel it. What religion would buy and hide incriminating docments about its history and founder? Oops, I forgot - that's LDS official policy.
Far better fto say you believe despite a complete lack of evidence for anything in the BOM except a few artifacts accepted only by the LDS. An argument from faith is actually stronger than an argument from evidence when none exists.
Take Care
smb12321 2 years ago
I believe that you believe there is no evidence.
therflo13 2 years ago
smb12321 2 years ago
I gave you too much credit. You are either an intellectual Hellen Keller... or so full of propaganda that you can't acknowlege reality.
therflo13 2 years ago
"It's hard to swallow the whole racist song and dance."
A Negro looks as though he has been put in an oven and burnt to a cinder.... His hair baked crisp, his nose melted to his face, and the color of his eyes runs into the whites. Some men look as if they had only been burned brown; but he appears to have gone a stage further, and been cooked until he was quite black.
- From Caucasian to Negro, quoted in Bush, Mormonisms Negro Doctrine: An Historical Overview, pp. 57-58, endnote #99
Outlaw1257 2 years ago
That is an excerpt from:"Man and his Varieties," by "G. R.," so... you're quoting a book which is quoting a book.
therflo13 2 years ago
Therflo, Explain this:
If we go back to theLDS version of talking snake saga, the Mormon 'god' supposedly "cursed" Cain with a flat nose and black skin.
Without a similarly "cursed" woman, it was genetically impossible for Cain to have sired black skinned, flat-nosed offspring.
Now, since Cain supposedly killed his brother, then there was no reason for a woman to be "cursed" as Cain supposedly was.
That shoots the racist beliefs & a basic premise of BoM all to hell!!
Outlaw1257 2 years ago
It's hard to swallow the whole racist song and dance. Considering Joseph Smith was the first Presidential Candidate with an anti-slavery platform.
Funny you should mention the snake saga. It's also genetically impossible for a snake with legs to produce legless offspring. Biblical accounts are full of impossibilities, such as a man stopping time. The mark was set upon him, his lands, and people (decendants). There are many curses within scripture.
therflo13 2 years ago
So now, facts and science fail, the pieces to your puzzle do not fit together, so now you whip out the give way to mystical hocus-pocus to explain the genetic impossibilities.
Outlaw1257 2 years ago
Comment removed
Outlaw1257 2 years ago
Therflo - I hope you realize how ridiculous this Hopewell nonsense is. Why should the only evidence be questonable artifacts from a single tribe. Again, what about the huge cities ih vast kingdoms, armies of millions, steel words & mining (as well as nonexistent plants & animals - lol). Ah, the BOM.
Using this "logic", UFOs exist because of a fuzzy picture in 1956, Or Jesus is real beccause he's a cracker. This insults anyone with intellectual honest. Back to the Dead Sea Scrolls - lol
smb12321 2 years ago
Why should the only evidence in the clip be an opinion from a single egyptologist? Cities kingdoms, armies of millions, metal works and mines all existed when Cortez and Columbus arrived. Give examples of nonexistant life mentioned. Or perhaps you lack of intellect is an insult to humanity...
therflo13 2 years ago
Therflo- I feel like the village atheist talking to the village idiot. Historical cities are unlike BOM cities - they exist. Read something besides LDS tracts.
A short list of BOM bloopers- horse, pig, ox, silk, barley, wheat, wine, fortifications, brass, iron, egyptian speech, cement, books, synagogues,chariots, swords & great buildings with gold & silver.
The LDS now claims the BOM writer used different terms., So why didn't god correct it when he provided JS the translation? LOL
smb12321 2 years ago
You make this too easy.
Fossilized horse remains have been found in the US. Pictographs of swine have been found. Also native americans had cattle called "tahtanka". Also several tons of worked iron ores were found at the Olmec site of San Lorenzo Tenochtitlán, in southern Mexico. No mention of Egyptian speech in the BOM. The many Hopewell mounds were used for religious and funneral sevices. Native structures dot all of the americas, large amounts of gold were taken by Cortez. LOL
therflo13 2 years ago
therflo13 wrote about Hopewell Indians & the Dead Sea Scrolls. How are they related to the BOM? Archaeologists, with evidence and research, report a different history than the LDS line. But most importantly, these views are supported by other areas of science - history, botany, linguisticis, zoology and genetics.
Here's the crux - Either all these folks are completely wrong or the BOM is right. The degree of self-delusion among the Saints is frightening and pitiful.
Take Care
smb12321 2 years ago
Fortifications made by the Hopewell match the construction techniques and gegraphical locaton mentioned in the BOM. Also parts of the Dead Sea Scrolls match parts of the BOM.
therflo13 2 years ago
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Outlaw1257 2 years ago
It's not just the physical evidence. It's the idea that a possibly mythic religious hero would write a document for a civilization he did not know existed. Fuerthermore, that this document would appear 4,000 yrs later at the exact time a hick farmer was attempting to set up a new religion.
What are the odds? You do the math!
smb12321 2 years ago
At the end of the day, people believe what they want to believe based on their own perceptions of reality and truth.Fortunately enough I was born with a thinking brain that enables me to listen and study both sides of the argument and then decide.
Interesting Side note: Dr.Robert Ritner was a Psychology graduate that went on to do a PhD in Egiptology after various appointments(some relevant others not).title of Phd thesis was "The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magical Practice".You decide..
bping123 2 years ago
I trust faithful Mormon spokemen. What does it matter that they know nothing of ancient Egypt or their conclusions are rejected by everyone else?
DNA , linguistics, archeology are wrong, the various versions from Smith can be reconciled & I will be a big bad ruler of my own harem, uh, planet later on. I mean, isn't that the way it's supposed to work? If the evidence contradicts faith then it's not true. LOL
smb12321 2 years ago
Interesting you speak as if you are certain when for all the world knows all egyptologist could be completely ignorent of the egyptian language. Who's to say that the Rosetta stone was even a correct translation? True meaning can be lost with even the best interpreters. Mistakes are made today and they were made in Egypt as well. Not to mention that 2 of the languages on the stone were only fragments. One of which was egyptian... What are the odds? You do the math!
therflo13 2 years ago
therflo13 -
Who's more likely to be correct?
(1) A hick farmer who chatted with God, Jesus & Moses & whose "copy" of reform-egyptian was a laughing stock.
(2) Those who studied & wrote books on Egyptian, who lived there & teach / run museums.
Mormons choose #1, If ignorance is bliss you are on cloud 9. The Rosetta contained HISTORICAL languages. Reformed Egyptian (lol) is as real as the battle of Comorrah 1600 yrs ago that left no trace of weapons or bones of millions of warriors.
smb12321 2 years ago
Who's more likely to be correct?
(1) Someone who translated an unprecedented dialect in less than 2 months, who organized a community, was the face of currency, and a US presidential candidate.
(2) Those who only have part of one translation of one interpreter's writting.
Also last I checked there were more than 33,000 artifacts cataloged that support the Book of Mormon. Finds concerning the Hopewell indians to be specific.
therflo13 2 years ago
therflo - This urban myth is so...pitiful. The Smithsonian, in a letter refuting LDS claims that the institute used the BOM for research purposes, noted that no artifact withstood scientific examination and no MidEast connection had been found in the New World - North & South.
They also noted that large armies & huge cities in the BOM left zero evidence - a nice was of saying it's bogus. The blatant plagarism of entire Bible chapters by Smith easily disproves the BOM's authenticity.
smb12321 2 years ago
So you are saying that the Hopewell indian did not exist? Interesting...
Also by that logic you must also cosider the Dead Sea Scroll's authenticity disproved considering that both the BOM and DSS have portions that match the Bible.
therflo13 2 years ago
Therflo13;
What you conveniently neglect to mention is that NONE of these so-called "evidences" have withstood scrutiny by ANY group of Nonpartisan experts. The ONLY so-called "experts" who have "authenticated" these so-called "artifacts" are LDS shillsters who hold no credibility outside of MormonLand!!
Outlaw1257 2 years ago
"MormonLand" I'm assuming you mean Utah. You should divert more focus to Michigan. Have they ever been put through scrutiny by any "nonpartisan" experts.
The Smithsonian's primary methods include gathering around and artifact and asking "Does this look Native American to you guys". How scientific...
therflo13 2 years ago
Therflo13 Wrote:
"MormonLand" I'm assuming you mean Utah
"MormonLand" refers to the dillusional world of LDS.
.
Therflo Wrote:
The Smithsonian's primary methods include gathering around and artifact and asking "Does this look Native American to you guys". How scientific... As for your attacks upon the credibility of Smithsonian, your comments are as bereft of facts and substance as any of the other snide, asinine comments you've made.
Outlaw1257 2 years ago
Therflo13 Wrote:
The Smithsonian's primary methods include gathering around and artifact and asking "Does this look Native American to you guys". How scientific...
So now, you're attacking Smithsonian's credibility?? And upon what do you base that??
All you've offered so far are smart ass replies with no evidence.
Good old Gordon B. WrinKKKley is most pleased with you; perhaps you will ascend to The Celestial Kingdom and live as his eternal houseboy!!
Outlaw1257 2 years ago
The Smithsonian has rejected artifacts due to their complexity. Instead of using any form of science to reject Native American artifacts depicting Christ, they simply stated that they were too complex to be Native American.
Allegedly the thirty thousand artifacts are a hoax made by two deceased men.
Speaking of deceaced, why did you use the former church president's name? What you couldn't come up with anything of the current church leader's name?
therflo13 2 years ago
Therflo Wrote:
The Smithsonian has rejected artifacts due to their complexity. Instead of using any form of science to reject Native American artifacts depicting Christ, they simply stated that they were too complex to be Native American.
And you support that claim with what evidence??
Outlaw1257 2 years ago
Outlaw - "Lying for the Lord" is central to the LDS. The church has a long sordid history of dealing with fakes & forgeries in their desperate search for proof. And yet we're told on Yourube that proof exists if only that pesky Smithsonian would get their act together and stop with the complexity business. (hilarious).
Given the size of the civilizations described in the BOM, tons of evidence should be around for evaluation. It's almost pathetic the lengths gone to justify a lie.
smb12321 2 years ago
Hears the crux only 797 items were thought to be made by Scotford and Soper. So, either they came back to life and created thousands of other artifacts, or the mounds and fortifications that are in the BOM were made by the Hopewell.
therflo13 2 years ago
Hmm... So, you can't disprove it... Wikipedia+ Michigan Relics. James Scotford and Daniel Soper are mentioned in this entry. They take the blame for the fakes... So, that leaves the other 29,203 items.
therflo13 2 years ago
Therflo Wrote:
Hmm... So, you can't disprove it... Wikipedia+ Michigan Relics. James Scotford and Daniel Soper are mentioned in this entry.
Now, you are playing the asinineMobot game pf "prove the negative", which is a fallacy withing logic.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and none of your so-called "evidences" will withstand scrutiny.
Baseless accusations impugning the integrity and credibility of The Smithsonian, then you offer Wikipedia as one of your sources?
LMAO!
Outlaw1257 2 years ago
Someone too slow to understand a search engine probably worships wiki. So, until you extraodinary evidence is provided to debunk anything I'll be waiting...
therflo13 2 years ago
You seem to be suggesting that Wikipedia holds greater credibility than the Smithsonian Institute; guess it's also more credible than national Geographic Society, or ant CA Ministry of Antiquities.
The fact is that LDS claims that Cain was marked with a "curse" of black skin and a flat nose. There is no mention of a woman being similarly marked.
That would leave no "cursed" woman to mate with, and without that, the "curse" could not be handed down.
Shoots BoM & LDS fables all to hell!!
Outlaw1257 2 years ago
Once again, you are playing your asinine Mobot game of "prove the negative". Guess you never took Logic 101.
You're claims of evidence have not been authenticated with any credible review or objective analysis by nonpartisan experts.
You are simply bluffing with a pair of deuces !!
Outlaw1257 2 years ago
You are so predictable. The nonpartisan expert is a professor at the University of Chicago. You know the same university the egyptologist from the clip works. Perhaps you should have read it. Don't act like we're playing Texas hold em.
therflo13 2 years ago
"A" nonpartisan expert, Therflo??
This was your reply to Smb12321:
"Why should the only evidence in the clip be an opinion from a single egyptologist??
Now, your are trying to pawn off a single 'expert". as being authentic. And his research has been peer reviewed and authenticated?? By whom??
You're simply grasping at straws, still bluffing with the same, lame, pair of deuces.
Outlaw1257 2 years ago
Frederick Starr of the University of Chicago was the nonpartisan professor. He agreed tha the 797 artifacts rejected by the LDS church were made by Scotford and Soper.
If I use straws... does that mean you use a sippy cup?
therflo13 2 years ago
Frederick Starr of the University of Chicago was the nonpartisan professor. He agreed tha the 797 artifacts rejected by the LDS church were made by Scotford and Soper.
If I use straws... does that mean you use a sippy cup?
And this professor's findings have been peer reviewed and authenticated by whom??
You seem moreinterested in smart-ass replies than you are in substance. I have asked some very specific questions, and made a very specific point that discredits BoM.
You are side-stepping.
Outlaw1257 2 years ago
That isn't a point that discredits the BOM.
W.H.Holmes of the Smithsonian Institution concurred with Dr. Starr.
therflo13 2 years ago
Therflo13 Wrote:
W.H.Holmes of the Smithsonian Institution concurred with Dr. Starr.
Care to cite a valid ( independent, non-LDS affiliated ) source for that claim??
Outlaw1257 2 years ago
The Detroit News. You can either use the July 28, 1911 issue or Michigan -- the home of Noah's Ark?
By Vivian M. Baulch Feb. 14, 1996
Both can be found on the Detroit News website. detnews (dot) com
therflo13 2 years ago
the LDS has 3 Achilles heels;
1) Joe Smith vs Bible
2) BoM vs science & history
3) BoA vs linguistics
3 more points:
1) the fragments are ancient Egyptian scrolls from the "Book of the Dead"
2) proves that he did not know how to translate Egyptian, otherwise he would've known
3) mormanism can not withstand science; archeology, genetics, textual criticism, history
LDS has to lie & cover-up, or renounce Joe Smith & accept Christianity as the WW Church of God did several years ago
lets see
FC275 3 years ago
you forgot the fact that religion is a bunch of crap.
defghi 3 years ago
defghi said:
"you forgot the fact that religion is a bunch of crap"
u forgot 2 things;
1. u have 2 take on faith that we r just an accident from chaos 2 complexity, ex nihil
2. that Paul said that from nature we could infer that there is a God
Romans 1:19 to 20
FC275 2 years ago
Further facts:
Smith claims to have translated most of the 500 page Book of Mormon in only 90 days.
Yet he spent over seven years working on the FEW pages of the Book of Abraham!
I guess the old seer stones were out of calibration or needed a software or firmware upgrade to translate regular "non-reformed" Egyptian!
The Achilles heel of the mormon church is attached to a tendon made of papyrus.
maxpixel 4 years ago 2
Joseph Smith could not translate Egyptian...WOW!
Well, there goes that.
briseisoftroy 4 years ago
How can we be sure we can trust those egyptologists?
therflo13 4 years ago 2
The LDS church has the papyrus.
The same that Joseph Smith translated.
The same that the Egyptologist translated.
The LDS church also had it translated from a different Egyptologist and they came up with the same translation that the first Egyptologists had.
Did you know that Pres Hinkley and the TWELVE were in serious discussion over the possible decision to no longer have QUADS? Those thick combo scriptures that LDS love so much. BIBLE Book Of Mormon, D&C, Pearl Of Great Price.
truthpersistence 4 years ago
...THE METRO. MUSEUM OF ART IN NEW YORK CITY GAVE THE PAPYRI TO THE MORMON CHURCH AS A GIFT WITH AN AUTHENTICATED RECEIPT FROM EMMA SMITH, ONE OF JOSEPH SMITH'S WIVES TO VERIFY THAT THE PAPRRI WRE THE ORIGINAL PAPYRI SMITH USED TO "TRANSLATE" THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM ...EVERY MORMON SHOULD ALSO SEE ON THIS SITE: THE UNTOLD STORY OF THE DEATH OF JOSEH SMITH"...fascinating stuff, mormon history...
dimtry19 3 years ago
do yourself a favor, go to your local Barnes & Noble, look for an Egyptian grammer book (mines had the kids edition), buy it, then go to local library, check out a copy of the Egyptian "Book of the Dead", check for any familiar sections to the BoA
see for yourself
Champollion had the Rosetta Stone to help him
Joe Smith made his grammar up, check that out its available also
now, transliteration is easy, (changing hieroglyphs for Latin characters)
translation is a little harder, so learn Coptic
FC275 3 years ago 2
do yourself a favor, go to your local Barnes & Noble, look for an Egyptian grammer book (mines had the kids edition), buy it, then go to local library, check out a copy of the Egyptian "Book of the Dead", check for any familiar sections to the BoA
see for yourself
Champollion had the Rosetta Stone to help him
Joe Smith made his grammar up, check that out its available also
now, transliteration is easy, (changing hieroglyphs for Latin characters)
translation is a little harder, so learn Coptic
FC275 3 years ago
Sorry this vid is pure propaganda. There was a group of about ten egyptolgists that worked on the project. Only three of them disagreed with the Joseph Smith translation. Those three made this propaganda video. The rest knew what they were doing.
therflo13 3 years ago
Where did you hear that line of BS, Therflo13 ??
Outlaw1257 2 years ago
Of the egyptologist only one agreed to be interviewed on camera. Last I checked he still works at the University of Chicago. Unfortunatly for the credibility of the documentary he is the only egyptologist to comment on camera. You can find the information on the documentary's website.
therflo13 2 years ago
What are you drinking? In 1912, 8 leading scholars examined Smith's drawings & reported unanimously that the "translation" was a fraud.
Recently, the church made the mistake of asking John Wilson, Klaus Baer & Richard Parker to translate the found scroll. The report is devastating; Smith knew no Egyptian.. Now the church is pushing a "spiritual translation" despite Smith's own markings!! LOL
We're lucky the sale was public or it would have disappeared like other documents.
smb12321 2 years ago
jjones1987; your rhetoric is perfect Mormon nonspeak. exactly like the 'manuscript found' dialogue engaged in by the Mormon Herarchy to obfuscate truth. eschew obfuscation...MORMONISM IS PROVABLY FALSE. AND THIS IS THE EASIEST PROOF.False Theology/interpretations like this lead to MOUNTAIN MEADOWS MASSACRE and many such ritual sacrafices for selfish gain.
hypnotstcollector 4 years ago
RESEARCH IS GOOD TO REVEAL ALL TRUTH !
sergiorambolt 4 years ago
HE WAS A REAL FRAUD !
sergiorambolt 4 years ago
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a cult, not Christian.
nauvoochristian 4 years ago
A corporation without a soul.
maxpixel 4 years ago
Joseph Smith was a religious fraud.
obrienr 4 years ago 2
This video makes the assertion that non-LDS scholars were the first ones to translate the newly found papyri, in fact after the LDS church received the scrolls they had them translated right away and then announced that they were not the Book of Abraham. Also you can see that the discussion of the video was purely one sided and biased against the church. To be clear, ounce the church had translated the papyri, they made facsimiles for all to see and examine themselves!
jjones1987 4 years ago
Of course, Ahay,
Your position here should not surprise me:
After all, you subscribe to a church that teaches that "it's better for a girl to be returned to her parens in a casket than it is for her to lose her virginity 7 chastity by succumbing to a rapist.
LDS also aids and comforts girls & women who HAVE ben raped by having a Stakr Priest od Bisopric meet with her to assess HER degree of blame and culpability for allowing the violation to occur, or for "intiting it".
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
Hmm, interesting. However, I just read that Joseph Smith was a mason and very high up in the ladder of FreeMasons.
rocketflameman 4 years ago
This video is to Mormonism like finding the tomb of Jesus, WITH his actual bones, would be like to Christianity. Still, though, I presented the three numbered and labeled facimilies to my Mormon cousin who tried to get me back into Mormonism, and, guess what? He's still a very on fire Mormon. Faith truly is blind.
BruceRamsey28 4 years ago
Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie
"CASTE SYSTEMS have their ROOT and ORIGIN in the GOSPEL itself, when they operate according to DIVINE DECREE, the resultant restrictions and SEGREGATION ARE RIGHT AND PROPER AND HAVE THE APPROVAL OF THE LORD. To illustrate: Cain, Ham, and the whole Negro race HAVE BEEN CURSED WITH A BLACK SKIN, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a CASTE APART, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry."
(Mormon Doctrine, 1958, p 107-108)
ldsSigHeil 4 years ago
We shouldn't judge marriage practices of past generations by today's standards since they had different laws and customs.
ahay321 4 years ago
Ahay321 Wrote:
We shouldn't judge marraige practices of past generations by today's standards since they had different customa and laws.
OoohhhKAY, Ahay!!
So we IGNORE the emotional gab between a grown man and a pubescent teenager?? So, loke your prophet Joseph, Smith, you argee that "if they're old enough to bleed, then they're old enough to breed"??
So what edition of "Dateline NBC: To Catch A Predator" did YOU guest star on??
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
IF Joseph Smith married a 14 year old, why is that bad? 14 year old girl is NOT pre pubescent, she's a young woman. Girls can start puberty young betweem 9-13 yrs old. Show me laws in the bible that forbid marriage to 14 year olds. Show me civil laws from 1800's that forbid it. History shows young teens could marry, the Roman law allowed 12 year old girs to marry & US laws allowed 12-14 year olds to marry. Infact, nowdays 14 year olds can marry with parent or court permission in many places.
ahay321 4 years ago
Ahay:
I don't give a damm about legal age of marraige.
If you are incapable of comprehending the emotional differences and differences in maturity between a grown man, and a very young teen age girl, then I mean no sarcasm here; I seriously hope that you lomit your contact with children.
You are making a pedophile's arguemwnt.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
By arguing against me, you're condemning YOUR own country that allowed young marriage. You're condemning American politians that allowed it. You have the weight of history against you. Why would a 14yr old be emotionally retarded? Teens often grow up looking after young siblings, playing the role of mother. I obey todays civil laws regarding marriage. There's no paedeophilia about it.
ahay321 4 years ago
You are ignoring the emotional developmental differences between a 14y/o girl, and a grown man.
Or else, you don't see that difference as a problem, which is (no joke here) a very, VERY common trait found in sexual predators; the defense that you use, "Well, it used to be legal, and in some places, it still is" is another refrain that they often use to justify their conduct.
Good reason to keep my daughter away from Mormon men.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
Mormons today live by TODAY's law of marriage. I'm saying, the civil law of PAST generations allowed young marriage, so they can't be labelled predators or paedophiles.
ahay321 4 years ago
Re: "The "standards of today" vs. "the standards of yesterday"
You refuse to address the difference in emotional & sexual maturity levels between a man in his mid-twenties as opposed to those of a 14y/o girl.
If you had any experience dealing with the sex offenders of today, you would see that the parallels of your justifications & theirs frighteningly similar.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
RE maturity levels. How do you know they weren't mature to become a housewife? What kind of maturity do they need? Children were sent into the workforce young. Why being a housewife any different? What about the extended family lending a hand & giving advice?
ahay321 4 years ago
Ahay:
You are offering the Mormoneese equivalent to "If she's old enough to bleed, then she's old enough to bleed".
Have you ever worked with, or had any experience in dealing with sexual predators, Ahay??
Do you have ANY idea how much your attitudes reflect theirs?
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
Also, Ahay,
You are seeking to sidestep the issue of the differences in maturity levels between a man in his mid twenties, and a 14y/o girl.
A 14y/o girl married to a 16y/o boy??
Okay, that was in keeping with the times to a limited degree. Most girls of that era married in the 17/19 threshold.
A man in his mid twenties looking for a 14y/o is now, and was then, a sexual predator.
If you can't see that, then at least stay away from kids.
You are deliberately ignoring that issue.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
People have married young (early teens) for thousands of years: Romans, Europeans, americans & other races around the world. They didn't think the same as you. I searched the web for evidence of young teen marriage, you'd be shocked if you bother to reasearch. Again, I'm talking PAST generations who were allowed to marry young. I'm not talking about today..(in my country 18 years is the minimum marriage age..any younger needs parent/court approval).
ahay321 4 years ago
Ahay;
We've already discussed leagal/traditional ages of marraige.
Again, you conveniently ignore the differences in physical, mental, emotional, and sexual maturity levels between a 14y/o girl, and a man in hids mid 20's.
Smith sought out young girls for the same reasons sexual predatorss seek out young children today.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
Ahay:
If Joseph Smith believed that what he was doing was not wrong, them please explain why he felt the need to lie to his wife Emma about his pedophilic philandering, disguised as "polygamy".
Since, as you suggest, "the standards of today vs. the standards of testerday", then why should the LDS dictums of days past apply today??
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
Emma was told to accept plural marriage by Revelation given to Joseph: "And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me.." D&C 132:52. So, obviously Emma knew about plural marriage (even if she didn't like it).
ahay321 4 years ago
No, Ahay!!
He lied to Emma about his adultery; he engaged in it before he ever publicly addressed the issue.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
Clever little trick here ahay!!
Yes, Emma knew of Smith's philandering, yet Smith lied to her about his wife Emma; there is a difference.
Do your own dammed research, & produce some CREDIBLE evidence otherwise.
Smith was a pedophile, a philanderer, a charlatain, & a fraud.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
Joseph Smith, that wonderful and amazing man who did so much for all humanity, is not here to explain the details of his processes. Our Heavenly Father is. And He says the Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Book of Mormon are true. His word is worth more to me than any one else's!
Kultaportti 4 years ago
Joseph Smith is a false prophet. He is burning in hell right now with Brigham Young, Lorenzp Snow, Spencer W. Kimball, and Ezer Taft Benson.
warriorguy07 4 years ago
Joseph Smith, the great and wonderful pedophile who, as a grown man, had sex w/ 14y/o girls, the philandering Casanova For Christ who lied to his wife about his infidelity, all disguised as polygamy.
Smith was a liar, a fraud, and there is not one word of truth to BoM.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
What was the minimum age for marriage during the 1800's?? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was 14 for boys and 12 for girls (with parent approval). Therefore marriage of a 14yr old was not immoral at the time.
ahay321 4 years ago
Ahay;
Your comment does not change the fact that Smith was a grown man who wanted to have his way with girls in their early teens.
He was a predator and a pedophile.
Nothing immoral?? Then why did he lie to his wife about his activities??
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
Teen marriage has been practiced for thousands of years. GO LEARN HISTORY before you condemn people. You're showing yourself to be incredibly stupid, perhaps we should investigate your background and your church. Should we also go into King Solomon's 700 wives and King Davids wives and affairs as well?
ahay321 4 years ago
You are the one who is showing yourself dtupid, Ahay!!
According to The U.S., Census beurea,IIRC, the average age of marriage for girls at that time was about 17 yrs. old.
Your defense of your pedophile prophet reveals that you have no regard for the level of maturity between a 14 y/o vs. a 17 y/o girl.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
I don't care what the average age of marriage was. I'm talking about the LEGAL MINIMUM AGE of marriage. Twelve US states allowed 12 / 14yr olds to marry. If you don't believe me that teens married young, google teen marriage. Learn the facts of history.
ahay321 4 years ago
That's the problem, ahay!!
You see the legal age as being the defining measure; you conveniently IGNORE the differences in physical, sexual, & emotion maturity that exist between a grown man and a 14y/o girl. Smith was a predator looking foe an east target.
Here you are, a goos Mormon, with your beloved "prophet" who believed that "if she's old enough to bleed, then she's old enough to breed.
That is beyond stupid, it is perverse.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
OK Mr know-it-all, Where are Joseph Smith's marriage records so we can see for ourselves? (Quote references and file numbers etc.) Don't tell me some haters website, I need authentic documents and records. Emma Smith KNEW about plural marriage, whether she liked it or not. Emma drifted away from the Church and joined with RLDS founded by dissenters, she also sold off Book of Abraham manuscripts. How do you know J.Smith lied? Where you there? It seems Emma became weak in the faith, not Joseph.
ahay321 4 years ago
So, Ahay?
I take it that you find nothing wrong with a grown man having sex w/ a 14 yr old girl??
As far as documentation??
Do your own dammed research; I'm not here to sit on your butt for you.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
The Book of Abarahm is a piece of fiction, just as the Book of Mormon, Book of Joseph, and the Pearl of Great Price. The Bible is the only truth.
Shamrockguy 4 years ago
i love nothing more then knowledge and hearing boths ides of the arguments so I encourage Mormons to defend their beliefs with scripture so I can decide what i believe.
Keep up posting the vids this is very informative.
tingle007 4 years ago
Can you name us so much as one source, outside of the LDS shillsters & apologists, who can validate ANY claim that you are making??
FARMS FAIRLDS, FIELDS, & Flimmsey-Lindsay have no credibility outside of LDS.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
Those websites can be a starting point for your research. Here's another one: w w w.the-book-of-mormon. com You can find links to other sources if you bother to look. Use your internet search, you might learn something.
ahay321 4 years ago
I've spent several years doing LDS Research, been to all of the websites. Ironically, THAT was what lead me to discover the truth behind the LDS scam.
You believe every far reaching excuse LDS has to offer.
As for me? I live in the world of objective scrutiny, research, and critical analysis.
LDS & BOM fail all of those tests.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
How many hoops are we supposed to jump through in order to buy into these LDS beliefs?
Linguistic experts have been able to translate Egyptian, Aramaic, Pharaonic, Hebrew, and many other ancient languages.
NONE of them have ever heard of "Reformed Egyptian", or "Abraham's heiroglyphics" with "alternate meanings"!!
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
Encarta dictionary says reformed means 'improved'. Similar words in the Thesaurus are: rehabilitated, transformed, changed, converted, renewed, new, improved" <b>According to those definitions, Hieratic & DEMOTIC could be called "Reformed Egyptian."
ahay321 4 years ago
Ahay321: "....Heiratic & Demotic "could be" called Reformed Egytian.
Here, once again, we get into the endless qualifiers of LDS, and the apologists attempts to support it.
Read the bible, and thee term "could be" is completely unneccessary.
Once again, Egyptologists have had NO problem translating the Papparus; yet, NON of them support the endless flow of excuses and qualifiers that flow from LDS, and the endless "what if", or "could be" hoops.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
Let me rephrase: Hieratic and Demotic are reformed Egyptian. Maybe you should learn english definitions of "reformed". Nephites had their own version of Reformed Egyptian as explained by Moroni: "And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech." Mormon 9:32
ahay321 4 years ago
First of all, there was no Moroni; Moroni is a completely fictional character.
Secondly , NOWHERE o/s of LDS Dreamland, Inc. will you find ANY anthropologists or linguistic experts who will validate the claims that you have made here.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
ahay321: "Hieratic and Demotic are reformed Egyptian"
So why when people today look at the "BoM Caracters" facsimiles (available online- google it) do the chracters in no way resemble Egyptian. These aren't Hieratic or Demotic.
Why then M. Harris claim Prof. Anthon said they were egyptian when they aren't. Harris lied or Anthon was dead wrong. Either way the whole story is bogus.
taskboy 4 years ago
Professor Charles Anthon was a suspect character, since he wrote a certificate saying the BoM translation was correct, then tore it up after learning an Angel showed Joseph Smith where the gold plates were. (See JS-H 1:64,65)
ahay321 4 years ago
Hoops exist in your imagination.
ahay321 4 years ago
Cute little retort, Ahay, but completely unsubstantiated.
I'm not the one having to come up with creative excuses to defend my stand here.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
Actually, now that I think about it, the hoops do not exist in MY imagination; if they did, i might by into the myths of LDS.
The hoops do exist in YOUR imagination. Your willingness to jump through those hoops is what allows you to parrot the LDS shillster's defenses.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
Outlaw said "Oh, so now it's both a Pagan Book of Breathings, decipphered by Egyptologists, AND written in a non-existant, never existed language called "Reformed Egyptian", all in the same text??"
That is exactly what ahay321 is saying, basically, the lost scrolls look and read like a burial papyri, but Joe Smith has these magical powers to see other languages, and topics....Gee Wizz !! ahay321 we need to talk about a bridge in NYC that I will sell you..
redbaroniii 4 years ago
As for you concerns about The Bible, even though I am not a Christian, The dead Sea Scrolls do, in fact, lend strong validity to it.
As well, the geography, archeology, anthropology, demographics, zoology and aggronomy fit The Bible perfectly.
Not so with BoM.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
11 mummies were taken from a catacomb near Thebes, Egypt on June 7, 1831 by Antonio Lebolo. These were later obtained by Michael H. Chandler who found papyri pieces and rolls with the mummies. 4 Mummies and the papyri were purchased by members of the Church. Joseph Smith said "one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt, etc." (See History of the Church, volume 2)
ahay321 4 years ago
There's more than meets the eye. That's why I suggest visiting that website, and others by LDS scholars and researches. And be wary of anti-mormon websites.
ahay321 4 years ago
ahay said "ahay said "To find if the Book of Mormon is true: Read, ponder, and ask God.(see Moroni 10:3-5)"
So let me ask this question with all respect to you, (and I do respect your sharp mind, really) I have read, studied, pondered, about the book of Abraham, and have concluded that this vid is 99.99% correct. Am I wrong? Should I change my thinking? How should I change my thinking? Please show how this vid is wrong. Go ahead knock them dead.
redbaroniii 4 years ago
This video doesn't show all the facts. More information about the scrolls and eyewitness statements are found at: w w w.jefflindsay. com
Follow links to LDSFAQ, BOA & B.of Mormon Evidences.
ahay321 4 years ago
This is not a game, life is at times too painful to goof around with. Nope my friend; they are not bleeding ketchup, that is real blood people are bleeding. The truth is important to me, the question of the validity of LDS is vital. So tell me what is the most important missing fact in your opinion?
redbaroniii 4 years ago
The missing facts: 1. Joseph Smith was a prophet, translated the Book of Abraham & hieroglyphs by prophetic means.
2. Joseph Smith had a NUMBER of scrolls. (only fragments from 2 are shown in this video).
3. Egyptologists rely on limited human knowledge, mostly based on the ROSETTA STONE.
3. ABRAHAM WAS FROM CHALDEA, NOT EGYPT. His meaning of the hieroglyphs would be different to an egyptians.
4. Book of Abraham has 5 CHAPTERS OF TEXT that are not in these fragments.
ahay321 4 years ago
continued: 5: Joseph Smiths scrolls were LONG extending throughout 2 rooms when rolled out on the floor. Are the fragments in this video? NO 5: Joseph Smith also translated documents without the physical document in front of him. For example: BOOK OF MOSES, AND JOSEPH SMITH TRANSLATION of the bible 6. Mormons & NON-MORMONS VIEWED THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM and reported on it. News papers reported on it claiming more than 2 scrolls.
ahay321 4 years ago
Since we don't have all the documents Joseph Smith had we can speculate all day long. I've read through mountains of text on the subject, more than I can copy/paste here. Again, that's why I recommend visitig websites that go further into it, Studying the Book of Abraham, examine the doctrines & compare with bible. And above all Ask God as Apostle James directs. The ball is in your court.
ahay321 4 years ago
ahay said "I recommend visiting websites ...The ball is in your court."
The sites are very defensive, and never go to the point. This vid still stands.
No; the ball is not in my court, you forget that I am the Christian, you are the Mormon. The true church of God was established at the beginning. It has lasted since then. You have swallowed Mormonism hook, line, and sinker. Gullibility is a virtue in Mormonism not Christianity.
redbaroniii 4 years ago
Apparently Joseph Smith had these papyri: Book of Breathings belonging to Hor, son of Remnyqay and Taykhebit, a Book of the Dead belonging to Tasheritmin, a Book of the Dead belonging to Neferirnub, a hypocephalus belonging to Sheshonq, and a document belonging to Amenhotep, the son of Hor.Apparently there was a scroll written in hebrew and sanscrit with a diagram of a serpant with 2 legs standing on it's tail forming a tripod. Does this video show that? See what I mean about missing texts?
ahay321 4 years ago
ahay said "See what I mean about missing texts?"
Thanks for the info, but honestly does more missing documents help the Mormon case? The Bible has virtually contemporaneous copies of the bible, both old and new. Mormons have misplaced everything. How can I buy into missing documents? Even though they sound Bible-ish... their content seems... well... phony. You do see that, don't you?
redbaroniii 4 years ago
Joseph Smith stated there were 2 rolls of papyrus with 2 or 3 other small pieces of papyrus.(see History of the church volume 2) The Painsville Telegraph Newspaper reported there were 3 papyri rolls (March 27, 1835, entitled "Mummies,") What we have today is 11 FRAGMENTS from what J.Smith had.
ahay321 4 years ago
The point I'm making is: Joseph Smith had more papyri than shown in this video. Some texts which are lost. That could explain the missing Book of Abraham text. As for the bible, we don't have any original bible manuscripts, only copies and translations. In fact there are many 'lost books' of the bible:
ahay321 4 years ago
ahay321;
Strange, how the Mormons always has to rely upon such flimsy excuses to support their beliefs.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
There is historical information, statements made by those who saw the papyri in J.Smiths day. The papyri was viewed by many people (educated people of the time) when Michael Chandler owned them (he toured America with his mummy/papyri exhibition). Smith also showed the papyri to both mormon and non-mormons, some of whom made statements. Mormon believe what the Book of Abraham claims to be, the writings of Abraham, translated by Joseph Smith.
ahay321 4 years ago
The papparii were texts of Pagan funeral rites, and that is all they ever were.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
We have 11 FRAGMENTS. Smith had a larger collection of papyri. Smith translated texts by inspiration/ prophetic means. He obviously saw truths in the hieroglyphs the Egyptologists don't see. Remember Abraham was from MESOPOTAMIA (CHALDEA), using egyptian style hieroglyps to explain HIS STORY. Yes, there's Egyptian pagan text mixed in. (It seems egyptians added their own text at some point.)
ahay321 4 years ago
Oh, so now it's both a Pagan Book of Breathings, decipphered by Egyptologists, AND written in a non-existant, never existed language called "Reformed Egyptian", all in the same text??
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
I never said Book of Abraham was written in Reformed Egyptian, that's the Book of Mormon. Concerning facsimile 1, Abraham wrote: "That you may have an understanding of these gods, I have given you the fashion of them in the figures at the beginning, which manner of figures is called by the Chaldeans Rahleenos, which signifies hieroglyphics."
ahay321 4 years ago
Abraham, from the land of the Chaldeans, is using hieroglyphics to explain HIS story. So we have an alternate meaning: ABRAHAMS MEANING. NOT AN EGYPTIANS MEANING as discribed by Egyptologists. Abraham wrote: "And it came to pass that the priests laid violence upon me, that they might slay me also, as they did those virgins upon this altar; and that you may have a knowledge of this altar, I will refer you to the representation at the commencement of this record." Abraham 1:12
ahay321 4 years ago
Wel, ahay;
If it was not written in the ficticious language of "Reformed Egyptian", (which immediately discredits BoM, then it would have been written in a language that egyptologists would have been able to translate.
No group of credible Egyptologists have ever proclaimed The Papparii to be anything but a Pagan funerial text.
Outlaw1257 4 years ago
"Lost books" mentioned in Bible: book of the Wars of the Lord (Num.21: 14); book of Jasher(Josh.10:13); 2Sam.1: 18); book of the acts of Solomon(1Kgs.11:41); book of Samuel the seer(1Chr.29:29); book of Gad the seer (1Chr.29:29); book of Nathan the prophet(1Chr.29:29; 2 Chr.9:29); prophecy of Ahijah(2Chr.9:29); visions of Iddo the seer(2 Chr.9:29; 2Chr.12:15; 2Chr.13: 22); book of Shemaiah (2Chr.12:15); book of Jehu (2 Chr.20:34); sayings of the seers (2Chr.33:19);
ahay321 4 years ago
ahay said ""Lost books" mentioned in Bible:"
Yes there are Lost books throughout history, of all sorts. They have two differing attributes than the BOM.
1. they were not canonized,
2 If found they would remain found not conveniently lost again.
Other lost books does not mean that this vid is untrue, and certainly does not mean the BOM is true. Sooner or later the desire for the truth will overcome the desire to maintain status of a blind faith Mormon. You can see this right?
redbaroniii 4 years ago
ahay said "To find if the Book of Mormon is true: Read, ponder, and ask God.(see Moroni 10:3-5)"
Lets just say, for the sake of argument that Joe Smith made the whole thing up, and lets just say there is no trace of the people, cultures, cities, or stories of the BOM. How do you know that your little vocie in you head is telling you the truth and my little voice is false? You do see why I think that your method is very dangerous, and may not lead to truth.
redbaroniii 4 years ago
ahay, the question is this "is the BOM a true historical document?" If it is then the choise is; which LDS church is the one true church? I hate to tell you that the FLDS think they are the one true church, and the SLC church splintered off from them. and they read the BOM and Prayed to god and they really REALLY believe they are right. So who is right.
redbaroniii 4 years ago
To find if the Book of Mormon is true: Read, ponder, and ask God.(see Moroni 10:3-5) After 1904 LDS Church banned polygamous marriages. Those found practicing it were excommunicated (expelled). Fundamentalist LDS church was formed by dissenters & polygamists who rejected the ban on polygamy. Certain leaders of this FLDS church where EXCOMMUNICATED from the LDS church.
ahay321 4 years ago
ahay said "To find if the Book of Mormon is true: Read, ponder, and ask God.(see Moroni 10:3-5)"
This is a typical answer to any valid, reasonable question about Mormonism. And it is wrong, sometimes dead wrong. If just listening to your own heart is the way to truth, then any voice heard by anyone is just as valid as the other. See the problem? Mystics do this and claim to find "the truth". Why are you so sure your voice is as true as theirs?
redbaroniii 4 years ago
Where does it say "listen to your own heart"?? The Apostle James said: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." James 1:5
ahay321 4 years ago
ahay said "To find if the Book of Mormon is true: Read, ponder, and ask God.(see Moroni 10:3-5)"
Why is it not a good idea to test your thinking? Why is it not a good idea to see if there is any trace of the people, cities, culture or stories found in the BOM? Does not have to be every people, city, or culture, but say... hummmm.. how about many?
redbaroniii 4 years ago
ahay said "ahay said "To find if the Book of Mormon is true: Read, ponder, and ask God.(see Moroni 10:3-5)"
How do you explain that my pondering, prayer, and study has lead me to the idea/faith that there is great doubt that the BOM is true? Was it the devil's work? Gods work? How can I know based on your method of obtaining the truth? Do you want me to just believe, because you say your right? That Joe Smith said he is right? How do you sort this out?
redbaroniii 4 years ago
ahaye said "I suppose some things seem nutty to people who don't understand the ways of God."
To a great degree a Christian knows the ways of God it is the LDS that don't make sense at all, but claim they know God. Don't think you understand God at all.
redbaroniii 4 years ago
ahay said "When Christ formed his church, it was led by the Apostles. They were ONE church, not many denominations. ONE church with many branches"
LDS is now the same thing !!! You have over 50 major branches from the LDS, and most of those are FLDS. this is because the SLC kept changing the doctrine of one true church to get more money. If the SLC LDS are the true one why do they change so much??? does God change???
redbaroniii 4 years ago
Ancient church in Peters day were ONE church. The 'branches' belonged to ONE church led by Apostles . The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is ONE church in over 160 countries led by Prophets and Apostles. "50 Major branches from the LDS" you refer to are SPLINTER GROUPS not a part of the LDS Church with HQ in Salt Lake City.
ahay321 4 years ago
ahay said "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is ONE church in over 160 countries led by Prophets and Apostles"
You are playing word games. let me show you your game by example: 'The Lutheran Church Missouri synod is ONE CHURCH. all other churches in the world are nothing but splinter groups of this, the one true church." See how that works??
redbaroniii 4 years ago
Leaders of the LDS church are Apostles & Prophets. Apostle Paul wrote "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." (1 corinthians 12:28,29) What churches follow that biblical pattern?
ahay321 4 years ago
Jesus said "the Law and the prophets were UNTIL JOHN"; there are no more prophets in the sense of added revelation to the Bible. An apostle is someone who actually SAW Christ. What remains is teachers, etc. Jesus said "Thy Word is Truth" God's Word says not to add to it. When I was Catholic I had to decide whether to believe God or my church's teachings. Since God cannot lie, my choice was to leave Catholicism and believe what God's Word. The question is whether you place man's word over God's.
thrufaithalone 4 years ago
There were more prophets after John the Baptist: Christ is a prophet (see Acts 3:22); Simeon Niger, Manean, Lucius & Saul where Prophets (Acts 13:1); Judas & Silas prophets (Acts 15:32). Future prophets will prophesy (Revelation 11:3-12) The true church has PROPHETS and APOSTLES.
ahay321 4 years ago
Lutheranism was developed by Martin Luther a REFORMER, Ex-Catholic Augustinian monk. Although his intentions were good it seems, he was neither a Prophet nor Apostle. Lutheran Church Missouri Synod was formed by Lutheran PASTORS & members NOT Apostles & prophets.
ahay321 4 years ago
Oh I see so the names of things makes the LDS the "one true church". That is kind of silly, especialy when there is no trace of the people, places, cities, and stories of the BOM. I think the Waltnesses have apostles & prophets, and my church has those too. So are you still the one true church?
and why did the LDS rewrite all of their doctrine? and why is it that the LDS hides its history? and why do you have secrets?
redbaroniii 4 years ago
The Lutheran church may have been started by Martin Luther, but it is based on the Bible; it was a revolt against the unBiblical practices of Catholicism - such as indulgences, works based salvation, etc. It's "foundation" isn't Luther; he just returned the focus to Scripture. The Catholic church teaches they are the one true church; so do Jehovah's Witnesses. The truth is that the Church Christ founded is invisible since only God knows the heart.
thrufaithalone 4 years ago