I think instead of a law, there should be a campaign of public service announcements to get people to call the authorities if they suspect a crime is happening. Really get this idea in the public mindset.
There is a lot to take in during emergency situations. I am like you in which I instinctively run towards the fire, I dont know why, itgs just something that must be innate. Most people avoid getting involved in emergencies due to the bistander effect, others are in shock or are too scared of the consequences, and if this is the rape case I think you are talking about it happened in a lower socioec. comm. where most people dont trust the authorities and fear retribution from gangs.
The threat of being punished doesn't reduce crime much. But a law allows you to convict and get the criminal off the street for awhile. Or get their car taken from them so they can't DUI so easy. etc.
But fining or even locking up the bystanders won't get rid of the criminal. The threat could help other bystanders behave better; a little. There is a consensus now that cell phone usage while driving is bad, but I still see drivers holding a phone.
I know this video is old, but i felt i should at least make it known that as a college student in the early childhood education program at dixie state college, I can attest that as a teacher point of view, they are training us in college to be advocates of teaching moral character to the children at a young age and keep teaching it threw elementary school and beyond.
@sai10000 I agree, and even if you are too scared to do something to stop it, why stand there and watch? (if thats what the people were doing, the video wont even play for me, so I dont know this story)
It's unpreparedness, not apathy. A law wouldn't help. If people don't know how to handle an emergency, a law requiring them to do something wouldn't inspire action, it would only make them eligible for arrest. Many of us live lives that don't prepare us to respond to emergencies. We live boring predictable lives where immediate action is rarely useful, then something happens, and we aren't ready. That law wouldn't make us ready.
@NephilimFree and if this world thought like you, we would still have slavery, treat women like second class citizens, kill children in opposing countries, etc. Should i tell you more?
I understand, does there have to be a law? But how is it written, the biggest trouble is who knows if they (congress) do not read more than a summery and vote on a law they expect you to know.
Unrelated....
Is that secret society ring on his pinky, anyone do a close up?
I didn't know about this specific incident but it is a there are other documented cases of similar similar things happening. The book "the Hidden Brain" has a really good write up on this. If I recall correctly there have been studies that indicate that the more people that witness a crime the less likely it is that somebody will step in and do something about it. It seems that in a crisis situation the first instinct for most people will be to form a consensus on what needs to be done.
what idiot logic... the fact is that bystanders DON'T stop rapes, DON'T do the right thing or else this would not be being discussed... to claim that we don't need to legislate the right thing is just ego masturbation from self-righteous wankers. The deterrent effect of legislation in such specific circumstances is far superior to any side-effects which can be mitigated in courts of law.
Thats a good argument, and gotta give you a A for logic.
To be honest situations happen, and things that should happen while those bad situations are happening don't always occur, and there is nothing we can do about it(to a certain degree of course), but hey thats life.
Penn,you're one to talk abandoning poor teller after he got a little too old for your tastes...withholding your meat rocket from his flesh cave...shame on you...for shame... :(
I think there has always been people who will stand by and which bad things happen to other. It's the I'm glad it's not be or maybe he or she did something. I don't understand why individual just came pick up the phone and give the location and hang up.
I wish I could say that this reaction is unique to California because they lack a backbone but alas it seems to be t/ common reaction of a passive citizenry. In my Minnesota several months ago a woman was brutally raped and murdered in an apartment complex in Minneapolis. Her screams were heard for several hours and no one tried to help her or even call t/ police. Some fight back- a St. Paul man rescued a female store clerk and was brutally beaten to brain damage days later by the same thugs.
I strongly believe that we're all more connected than we think we are. When we let things like what's happening in Darfur go on it has a strong effect on us in ways like.. well a group of kids in California standing around watching a girl get raped like it's some sort of sideshow.
Hi Penn fans. Penn Says videos have been discontinued, so you won't be seeing any new content on here. You can check out our Profile on our Channel Page for more info. We'll still be checking in, so hope to keep chatting with you all! Thanks!
In this video Penn remarks this is us.Sorry but not so.How many stories like this do you hear coming out of the Midwest?People like to crack on the "flyover states" about how we are a bunch of gun toting nuts and religous weirdos but at least we have some morals.
(continued) it was simply a girl acting up and being a brat. This isn't exactly the same thing, seeing as a girl being gang raped in public is a clear violation, whereas, children do sometimes act like jackasses. I suppose what we should take from this is that when in doubt, do SOMETHING (non-violent if its questionable) I don't think their should be a law however forcing folks to help. It should be a natural thing to want to protect others liberties, unfortunately it's not.
It reminds me of an interesting news thing I saw, but can't for the life of me remember where. They staged an older man grabbing a young girl (around 12 years old) and trying to drag her away on crowded streets. The girl was screaming, "Get away, leave me alone, your not my daddy, I don't know you etc." The man kept saying things like, "Come on honey, lets go, stop acting like this, etc." The memory is vague. Ultimately, they showed only a couple people actually do something. The rest assumed
Yeah, I don't see Penn standing around doing nothing. He is too chatty and energetic of a guy to do nothing. I couldn't even imagine nothing happening and Penn standing around doing nothing. The stories like this though always make me sad. Always wish I was there during those events so I could be the person that did something and prevent such things. Sometimes a person must just react. Can't assume or wait on what othesr are or might be doing.
I teach psychology at a high school and you are correct. Recent research on the Genovese case indicates that people who are affected by "diffusion of responsibility" and thus fail to help someone are actually not cold-hearted. They usually think someone else has called for help. The more people around, the less likely someone will help. This belief creates the bystander effect. I would have to call for help just to make sure police were en route but that's just me.
There was actually an interesting psychological study done concerning bystanders in which they had a single person alone hear a call for help and having two people together who heard a call for help. The people who were together were each less likely to respond than the people who thought they were alone. Interesting study, but I can't for the life of me remember the name of it.
Sorry everybody... I just read my own post and have to admit it sounds like a lode of troll to me, so I will just simplify my statement to "I completely agree with you Mr. jillette" and leve it at that.
Even if they thought that some one else was getting help that doesn't change the fact that it was still apathy. Call out, scream, get a base ball bat! DO SOMTHING! If there are enuff people in a crowd to justify that someone else has called the cops there are more than enuf people to stop a gang rape. We are breding apathy in this world and that is the real problem and no peace of paper signed by some old men who don't know that there is a world beyond there gated community will change that.
I agree with you 100% Penn. I think that were one to see such a thing happening, their moralsand ethics should be what causes them to report the crime, not fear of incarceration.
But think about those laws where a doctor has to respond to an emergency which might happen right in front of him. A person could get into a car accident but instead of him standing by he's legally required to go and check out on that person who's injured. Don't you think that there could be some law like that for regular citizens?
@rasputinafreak Those laws aren't everywhere. I can't find the news story now but recently there were two off-duty paramedics in a Starbucks where someone started having a heart attack. Instead of helping, they told someone to call 911 and walked out.
Are you saying that more people would withhold information and be too scared to come forward later -VS.- come forward right away because of this law and because it's the right thing to do?
I'm not sure I agree, but society's in pretty sorry shape if that ever turns out to be the case.
Couldn't we remedy the whole discouraging-people-from-reporting-crimes-later-on problem by simply writing into the law a clause that says that anyone who eventually reports the original crime can't be charged?
I agree. In the wake of what happened here, all the time spent talking about if the bystanders should be punished could have been used to help the victim, and future victims. I've said it, and so have a lot of other people: there is a right to be a stupid inconsiderate asshole in this country. Being smart and proactive is a choice. Let's reward the smaller amount of people who make that choice instead of punishing the massive amounts that don't.
I'm so glad Penn is here to inject sense into things. Not many these days are willing to ascribe to thinking out the repercussions of hastily made reactionary ideas.
One should also remember that this is one incident that people notice because it was a particularly sensational occurrence. The flip side would be the overturned and burning car in Milwaukee where bystanders saved the life of the passengers at great peronal risk. It's ridiculous to make blanket statements about the "deterioration of morality in America" based on this one incident.
The Kitty Genovese situation that Penn mentions around the 5:30 mark led to the discovery of what Social-Psychologists call the Bystander Effect. There's also a huge problem with coming forward later to report a crime violating the 5th amendment rights of the reporter if there's one of these "Good Samaritan Laws" in effect.
When I saw "Penn Says - Rape Bystanders" I thought to myself, well this is going to be interesting. It was still interesting, just wasn't what I expected. :P
"You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered."
could it be that the one's watching were in fear of getting hert or afrad to do any thing cuz it was one aginst many.. yes the ones watching were many, but wen you do not have (mob mentality) and see some thing like that FEAR CAN BE VERY STONG, the many have (mob mentality) bystand's do not!, thay feel alone, nomater how many are next to them.
I had this really good on topic engaging response, full of insight and ideas, but then I watched the video again and noticed this:
"I think any discussion you have online... is gonna be stupid."
So... you obviously aren't doing this to have a conversation. You are just doing this to drum up publicity for your Vegas show or whatever it is you do. Why put ideas in these videos instead of magic tricks then?
Well yes, he doesn't do this for a conversation, he does it to spread his views/opinons/whatever the fuck else he wants. That's what a traditional vlog is all about.
Though I am disgusted and ethicly outraged by these "rape bystanders", we do not need any new laws. We do not need a new law everytime there is a moral or ethical outrage. I, like Penn have stepped in in this kind of situation, but it is a personal choice. The outrage here is not that people did not step in, but that they didn't make a simple phone call. how hard would that have been? Those who did not do that smallest of things were not raised right by their parents.
I feel so bad for the rape victim. I remember being in a bad car accident (a semi failed to use its breaks and totaled my car). There were several other drivers around and none of them stopped to help or see if I was okay. I felt so disappointed in my fellow man. I can't imagine how the rape victim feels.
The people who didn't report the rape were shit, but you're right, a bystander law probably wouldn't be the most effective solution.
Where I live, (in Montana) we all have guns. If someone were raping a woman on my street there would be a shooting. And a dead rapist. No doubt. People here know this, they don't invade peoples homes, they know they will be shot. An armed society is a respectful society.
Pennsays people: I just kindly wanted to suggest changing the video description to the right to say "oughta" and "oughtn't." I feel like Penn puts a lot of thought into these things, and "ountn't" (a contraction of "ount not") kinda cheapens it for me.
Thanks for the videos; I hope I don't seem picky. Others might complain about the video title and its instruction to "rape bystanders," but I think it's a good attention-grabber.
Well, the cops found out somehow, or it woudlnt' be on the news. Stuff like this happens quite a bit. Parents teach 'tolerance' & discouraging any kind of aggressive behavior, and now they expect a bunch of alpha males to just come out of nowhere and defend someone? lawl. A buddy of mine lived in CA in the 80's, its not a shock to him to hear this. Another friend was part of the "forced bussing" in FL, I believe in the 60s? He was about Penns size, he did fine, but girls were less lucky.
Penn briefly touches at around 5:30 what I call the "New York Syndrome". You come upon an event, you see a whole lot of other people there observing, and you fail to get help/call 911/etc because you assume that somebody else in the crowd has already done so. Unfortunately, everybody else in the crowd is thinking the same thing, ie, "one of the these other people will do it/ has done it."
The last thing we need in our world is another syndrome. Acknowledging a syndrome is offering sympathy towards failure.
For a rape victim, this sort of compassion can be understandably necessary. For an individual who allowed another to be victimized when the risks against them for reporting it are entirely negligent, no such sympathy should be spared.
I would rather be wrong in reporting a possible rape than be right in assuming she was willing or that others had done it for me.
Also, if this is the behavior of the vast majority of people, it hardly constitutes a syndrome. For something to be an abnormality, it must at the very least be uncommon.
Though it may seem depressing, it actually helps to know that we as humans are prone to such behavior. Knowing that I have a tendency to diffuse responsibility allows me to be aware of it and force myself not to do it. The more you know about common human faults and mistakes, the less likely you are to make them.
You know the saying if you keep your mouth shut you are just as bad as the person who did the act it holds true here. I would stand up for someone if needed but others might need a push in the right direction. Sometimes Iraqi male soldiers from what I hear have a pact amongst each other to keep their mouths shut for each other in a situation where one of them rapes a female solider. It's so sad that a woman has to go through that. And I said sometimes so don't flame me.
These people voyeuristically participated in the crime. They found as much pleasure in simply watching as others did in their more tactile approach. They willfully encroached upon her, and for that, there is no valid excuse.
However, it is difficult to craft laws based on a complex set of circumstances in such a way that won't affect an innocent individual in the future.
This isn't a legal failure, it's a parenting failure.
I would say it is yet another failure of government. The government insists that we don't need guns because they'll protect us, so they disarm us and then fail to protect. If this was a gang almost assuredly one of THEM had a gun because they don't care about gun control. For the government to make a law to force you to aid someone is ridiculous. You cannot make someone virtuous with the threat of violence against them. With that said, there is a moral duty to help, and I would have.
As pointed out below, many states and countries already have laws like this, and as far as I've been able to tell, the laws haven't really helped much. Some crimes still go unreported, and while a great many do get reported, there isn't much evidence that they were only reported do to the law. I've long agreed with your friend-- when people say there ought to be a law, there oughtn't.
I think that it is too pathetic to consider that we need a law such as this.
When such numbers of people don't know how to behave in ways that are not so criminally negligent and stupid, I feel that as a society we face greater issues than what laws can fix or prevent.
The amount of disgust and contempt I hold for the people involved in this and did nothing to help is too much to express with a 500 character limitation. Only thing I can say is they make wish I believed in Hell.
I do see your point. If those people had compassion for the victim's suffering then they would have done something to help her right? But that doesn't change the fact that they had no compassion and looked on it (and took pictures) like it was entertainment. Something is seriously wrong there, and I completely agree they need to investigate it.
What I find even more disturbing is, not only did they do nothing to help her but, some of the onlookers actually JOINED IN.
Such a law would stop people from coming forward later, which might have horrible consequence. It sounds like this was an obvious and brutal crime, but not all crimes will be this way. What if you only saw part of a crime, so it wasn't apparent until you connected the dots later or watched the news. Or indeed you were a bystander but can't prove you weren't paying attention (earbuds). Topic reminds me of the self incrimination issues mentioned in the "Don't Talk to Police" video on YouTube.
Laws related to "failure to lend aid" are already on the books in many states, in various forms. It seems Europe has long had such laws along with criminal penalties for failing to lend aid when they could, as was the case with the photographers snapping pictures of Princess Diana while she lay bleeding in her wrecked car. Sometimes all it takes is a phone call.
Most states have a similar law.. its called visiting a common nusance.. meaning a law is being broken and you know this and do nothing to stop or prevent it...
I agree with the sentiment (punish those cowards), but it makes sense that you would have less people coming forth later- like Penn says- so fuck that. Seems like it would be a far too emotional law.
I had this conversation today (tutoring my friend for a debate class). Just because I disagree with something, or I think something is horrible, I don't think we should just add more laws to prevent it.
I think instead of a law, there should be a campaign of public service announcements to get people to call the authorities if they suspect a crime is happening. Really get this idea in the public mindset.
TallTeeth 1 month ago
This man paints his nails.
Marflaxen 3 months ago
I LOVE RAPE!!!!
doiPyHD 5 months ago
There is a lot to take in during emergency situations. I am like you in which I instinctively run towards the fire, I dont know why, itgs just something that must be innate. Most people avoid getting involved in emergencies due to the bistander effect, others are in shock or are too scared of the consequences, and if this is the rape case I think you are talking about it happened in a lower socioec. comm. where most people dont trust the authorities and fear retribution from gangs.
mzvalverde1 8 months ago
The threat of being punished doesn't reduce crime much. But a law allows you to convict and get the criminal off the street for awhile. Or get their car taken from them so they can't DUI so easy. etc.
But fining or even locking up the bystanders won't get rid of the criminal. The threat could help other bystanders behave better; a little. There is a consensus now that cell phone usage while driving is bad, but I still see drivers holding a phone.
johnk731 10 months ago
I know this video is old, but i felt i should at least make it known that as a college student in the early childhood education program at dixie state college, I can attest that as a teacher point of view, they are training us in college to be advocates of teaching moral character to the children at a young age and keep teaching it threw elementary school and beyond.
SamanthaLittleToes 11 months ago
The thing is THERE REALLY SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BE A LAW!!! Seriously,are we in America THAT cowardly?
sai10000 1 year ago 2
@sai10000 I agree, and even if you are too scared to do something to stop it, why stand there and watch? (if thats what the people were doing, the video wont even play for me, so I dont know this story)
itscat92 1 month ago
It's unpreparedness, not apathy. A law wouldn't help. If people don't know how to handle an emergency, a law requiring them to do something wouldn't inspire action, it would only make them eligible for arrest. Many of us live lives that don't prepare us to respond to emergencies. We live boring predictable lives where immediate action is rarely useful, then something happens, and we aren't ready. That law wouldn't make us ready.
qwexas 1 year ago
Wow. If this world thought like Penn,man would have self-destructed long ago. Bizarre.
NephilimFree 1 year ago
Comment removed
lefayad1991 1 year ago
@NephilimFree and if this world thought like you, we would still have slavery, treat women like second class citizens, kill children in opposing countries, etc. Should i tell you more?
lefayad1991 1 year ago
@NephilimFree I everybody would be like you we would not have electricity, planes, gone to the moon snf modern medicine
Toudiyama 1 year ago
@NephilimFree are you a Poe?
Mattysmyth0593 10 months ago
@Mattysmyth0593 No, I'm a Poo.
NephilimFree 10 months ago
A question comes to mind, no one have a gun?
I understand, does there have to be a law? But how is it written, the biggest trouble is who knows if they (congress) do not read more than a summery and vote on a law they expect you to know.
Unrelated....
Is that secret society ring on his pinky, anyone do a close up?
Did someone hit him with the back of a hammer?
dubya3cdotcom 1 year ago
I didn't know about this specific incident but it is a there are other documented cases of similar similar things happening. The book "the Hidden Brain" has a really good write up on this. If I recall correctly there have been studies that indicate that the more people that witness a crime the less likely it is that somebody will step in and do something about it. It seems that in a crisis situation the first instinct for most people will be to form a consensus on what needs to be done.
kayosiiii 1 year ago
what idiot logic... the fact is that bystanders DON'T stop rapes, DON'T do the right thing or else this would not be being discussed... to claim that we don't need to legislate the right thing is just ego masturbation from self-righteous wankers. The deterrent effect of legislation in such specific circumstances is far superior to any side-effects which can be mitigated in courts of law.
gratex 1 year ago
It shouldn't have to be a law, but then again our world is full of scum and you can't always depend on others to do the right thing.
RoboticsNShenanigans 1 year ago
“…It is not God that kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us…” – Rorschach
Jokerman32 1 year ago
Thats a good argument, and gotta give you a A for logic.
To be honest situations happen, and things that should happen while those bad situations are happening don't always occur, and there is nothing we can do about it(to a certain degree of course), but hey thats life.
tHecOmMeNtErSrEtUrN 1 year ago
Penn,you're one to talk abandoning poor teller after he got a little too old for your tastes...withholding your meat rocket from his flesh cave...shame on you...for shame... :(
Fleshcucumber1 1 year ago
I think there has always been people who will stand by and which bad things happen to other. It's the I'm glad it's not be or maybe he or she did something. I don't understand why individual just came pick up the phone and give the location and hang up.
scorpionlz 1 year ago
I wish I could say that this reaction is unique to California because they lack a backbone but alas it seems to be t/ common reaction of a passive citizenry. In my Minnesota several months ago a woman was brutally raped and murdered in an apartment complex in Minneapolis. Her screams were heard for several hours and no one tried to help her or even call t/ police. Some fight back- a St. Paul man rescued a female store clerk and was brutally beaten to brain damage days later by the same thugs.
ProdigalSonofLiberty 1 year ago
When you say rape bystanders,,,,I think about the Catholic Church.
coffeefish 1 year ago
@coffeefish haha!!
GodofEverything46239 1 year ago
I strongly believe that we're all more connected than we think we are. When we let things like what's happening in Darfur go on it has a strong effect on us in ways like.. well a group of kids in California standing around watching a girl get raped like it's some sort of sideshow.
TheKatt73 1 year ago
Why didn't God stop the rape? Oh wait, he stood there and watched too. Go figure..
DiggumSmack77 1 year ago
human race = fail
Franky2balls 1 year ago
Hi Penn fans. Penn Says videos have been discontinued, so you won't be seeing any new content on here. You can check out our Profile on our Channel Page for more info. We'll still be checking in, so hope to keep chatting with you all! Thanks!
pennsays 1 year ago
In this video Penn remarks this is us.Sorry but not so.How many stories like this do you hear coming out of the Midwest?People like to crack on the "flyover states" about how we are a bunch of gun toting nuts and religous weirdos but at least we have some morals.
gregjaeger13 1 year ago
(continued) it was simply a girl acting up and being a brat. This isn't exactly the same thing, seeing as a girl being gang raped in public is a clear violation, whereas, children do sometimes act like jackasses. I suppose what we should take from this is that when in doubt, do SOMETHING (non-violent if its questionable) I don't think their should be a law however forcing folks to help. It should be a natural thing to want to protect others liberties, unfortunately it's not.
raider6504 1 year ago
It reminds me of an interesting news thing I saw, but can't for the life of me remember where. They staged an older man grabbing a young girl (around 12 years old) and trying to drag her away on crowded streets. The girl was screaming, "Get away, leave me alone, your not my daddy, I don't know you etc." The man kept saying things like, "Come on honey, lets go, stop acting like this, etc." The memory is vague. Ultimately, they showed only a couple people actually do something. The rest assumed
raider6504 1 year ago
Yeah, I don't see Penn standing around doing nothing. He is too chatty and energetic of a guy to do nothing. I couldn't even imagine nothing happening and Penn standing around doing nothing. The stories like this though always make me sad. Always wish I was there during those events so I could be the person that did something and prevent such things. Sometimes a person must just react. Can't assume or wait on what othesr are or might be doing.
phatcartoon 2 years ago
I teach psychology at a high school and you are correct. Recent research on the Genovese case indicates that people who are affected by "diffusion of responsibility" and thus fail to help someone are actually not cold-hearted. They usually think someone else has called for help. The more people around, the less likely someone will help. This belief creates the bystander effect. I would have to call for help just to make sure police were en route but that's just me.
scarlettgkpi 2 years ago
There was actually an interesting psychological study done concerning bystanders in which they had a single person alone hear a call for help and having two people together who heard a call for help. The people who were together were each less likely to respond than the people who thought they were alone. Interesting study, but I can't for the life of me remember the name of it.
WAMill3R 2 years ago
@WAMill3R You might be talking about the Genovese research study stemming from an actual murder of Kitty Genovese.
scarlettgkpi 2 years ago
I think I remember that conversation, it was saddening... What happened was terrible, but reactionary legislation can be even worse...
billberryminute 2 years ago
don't stand idly by!
dawhooper69 2 years ago
Sorry everybody... I just read my own post and have to admit it sounds like a lode of troll to me, so I will just simplify my statement to "I completely agree with you Mr. jillette" and leve it at that.
VicecountVacant 2 years ago
Even if they thought that some one else was getting help that doesn't change the fact that it was still apathy. Call out, scream, get a base ball bat! DO SOMTHING! If there are enuff people in a crowd to justify that someone else has called the cops there are more than enuf people to stop a gang rape. We are breding apathy in this world and that is the real problem and no peace of paper signed by some old men who don't know that there is a world beyond there gated community will change that.
VicecountVacant 2 years ago
You are the best Penn. You and James Randi are the only people i subscribe to on youtube.
calvinscheuerman 2 years ago
@KyleHyde11219 Thank you! No wonder I couldn't find the news story. :-)
pennsays 2 years ago
I agree with you 100% Penn. I think that were one to see such a thing happening, their moralsand ethics should be what causes them to report the crime, not fear of incarceration.
SIKKZNYNE 2 years ago
He forgot about drug crime lol.. I'm pretty sure he stands by for that XD
IloveJesusYesId0 2 years ago
Penn Says Rape Bystanders. That's an unfortunate headline right there.
032125 2 years ago
I'd like to pass a law that requires all YALDs to wear funny hats.
flygalactic 2 years ago
Penn, what kind of watch are you wearing in this video?
Paulsur 2 years ago
But think about those laws where a doctor has to respond to an emergency which might happen right in front of him. A person could get into a car accident but instead of him standing by he's legally required to go and check out on that person who's injured. Don't you think that there could be some law like that for regular citizens?
rasputinafreak 2 years ago
@rasputinafreak Those laws aren't everywhere. I can't find the news story now but recently there were two off-duty paramedics in a Starbucks where someone started having a heart attack. Instead of helping, they told someone to call 911 and walked out.
pennsays 2 years ago
Are you saying that more people would withhold information and be too scared to come forward later -VS.- come forward right away because of this law and because it's the right thing to do?
I'm not sure I agree, but society's in pretty sorry shape if that ever turns out to be the case.
mypolyteknic 2 years ago
Couldn't we remedy the whole discouraging-people-from-reporting-crimes-later-on problem by simply writing into the law a clause that says that anyone who eventually reports the original crime can't be charged?
alexjwr 2 years ago
I agree. In the wake of what happened here, all the time spent talking about if the bystanders should be punished could have been used to help the victim, and future victims. I've said it, and so have a lot of other people: there is a right to be a stupid inconsiderate asshole in this country. Being smart and proactive is a choice. Let's reward the smaller amount of people who make that choice instead of punishing the massive amounts that don't.
JackieFiest 2 years ago
Often disagree with Penn, but he's intelligent and articulate. Happen to agree with him on this one. Hate laws are a bad idea too.
codediporpal 2 years ago 3
I'm so glad Penn is here to inject sense into things. Not many these days are willing to ascribe to thinking out the repercussions of hastily made reactionary ideas.
gothicsoldier 2 years ago
glad to see other people have the same views.
rgbmarrone 2 years ago
One should also remember that this is one incident that people notice because it was a particularly sensational occurrence. The flip side would be the overturned and burning car in Milwaukee where bystanders saved the life of the passengers at great peronal risk. It's ridiculous to make blanket statements about the "deterioration of morality in America" based on this one incident.
zzzozzz 2 years ago
The Kitty Genovese situation that Penn mentions around the 5:30 mark led to the discovery of what Social-Psychologists call the Bystander Effect. There's also a huge problem with coming forward later to report a crime violating the 5th amendment rights of the reporter if there's one of these "Good Samaritan Laws" in effect.
fantasgasmic 2 years ago
When I saw "Penn Says - Rape Bystanders" I thought to myself, well this is going to be interesting. It was still interesting, just wasn't what I expected. :P
pyroHAN 2 years ago
Your to much. ;-)
DanMcCaffrey 2 years ago
It could of been dilution of responsibility, or fear as a group of bystanders doesn't have a mob mentality.
Fuctmentality 2 years ago
One of my favorite quotes of all time:
"You do not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harms it would cause if improperly administered."
---Lyndon B. Johnson
sshuravesky 2 years ago 13
could it be that the one's watching were in fear of getting hert or afrad to do any thing cuz it was one aginst many.. yes the ones watching were many, but wen you do not have (mob mentality) and see some thing like that FEAR CAN BE VERY STONG, the many have (mob mentality) bystand's do not!, thay feel alone, nomater how many are next to them.
Handzoffire 2 years ago 5
hert= hurt
afrad= afraid
aginst= against
STONG= strong
figured you'd wanna know how to spell it right...?
GodofEverything46239 2 years ago 2
haha good to see the grammar videos crossing over to the comments section
pennsays 2 years ago
..?
GodofEverything46239 2 years ago
@GodofEverything46239 True that!. my typeing sukx. but the point was good yes?
Handzoffire 1 year ago
I had this really good on topic engaging response, full of insight and ideas, but then I watched the video again and noticed this:
"I think any discussion you have online... is gonna be stupid."
So... you obviously aren't doing this to have a conversation. You are just doing this to drum up publicity for your Vegas show or whatever it is you do. Why put ideas in these videos instead of magic tricks then?
Hypocrite.
bubblesort 2 years ago
Well yes, he doesn't do this for a conversation, he does it to spread his views/opinons/whatever the fuck else he wants. That's what a traditional vlog is all about.
SuperDisser 2 years ago
Though I am disgusted and ethicly outraged by these "rape bystanders", we do not need any new laws. We do not need a new law everytime there is a moral or ethical outrage. I, like Penn have stepped in in this kind of situation, but it is a personal choice. The outrage here is not that people did not step in, but that they didn't make a simple phone call. how hard would that have been? Those who did not do that smallest of things were not raised right by their parents.
SmokeRingsPipeDreams 2 years ago
"Rape Bystanders," eh? I'll admit, I expected something else entirely.
darseex 2 years ago
afraid to know what you were expecting!
pennsays 2 years ago
i myself was curious as to what he meant but i like you fear the revelation.
hopefulmiracle01 2 years ago
I feel so bad for the rape victim. I remember being in a bad car accident (a semi failed to use its breaks and totaled my car). There were several other drivers around and none of them stopped to help or see if I was okay. I felt so disappointed in my fellow man. I can't imagine how the rape victim feels.
The people who didn't report the rape were shit, but you're right, a bystander law probably wouldn't be the most effective solution.
160p2GHz 2 years ago 3
I'd wager this debate wouldn't even be going on if gun laws weren't so tight.
atypicalguy 2 years ago 4
Where I live, (in Montana) we all have guns. If someone were raping a woman on my street there would be a shooting. And a dead rapist. No doubt. People here know this, they don't invade peoples homes, they know they will be shot. An armed society is a respectful society.
SmokeRingsPipeDreams 2 years ago 2
he has a video about it. its in memory of his mother
NerdFury 2 years ago
Pennsays people: I just kindly wanted to suggest changing the video description to the right to say "oughta" and "oughtn't." I feel like Penn puts a lot of thought into these things, and "ountn't" (a contraction of "ount not") kinda cheapens it for me.
Thanks for the videos; I hope I don't seem picky. Others might complain about the video title and its instruction to "rape bystanders," but I think it's a good attention-grabber.
chimpshrimp 2 years ago 2
Well, the cops found out somehow, or it woudlnt' be on the news. Stuff like this happens quite a bit. Parents teach 'tolerance' & discouraging any kind of aggressive behavior, and now they expect a bunch of alpha males to just come out of nowhere and defend someone? lawl. A buddy of mine lived in CA in the 80's, its not a shock to him to hear this. Another friend was part of the "forced bussing" in FL, I believe in the 60s? He was about Penns size, he did fine, but girls were less lucky.
l337pwnage 2 years ago
Penn briefly touches at around 5:30 what I call the "New York Syndrome". You come upon an event, you see a whole lot of other people there observing, and you fail to get help/call 911/etc because you assume that somebody else in the crowd has already done so. Unfortunately, everybody else in the crowd is thinking the same thing, ie, "one of the these other people will do it/ has done it."
carlhhoward 2 years ago
The last thing we need in our world is another syndrome. Acknowledging a syndrome is offering sympathy towards failure.
For a rape victim, this sort of compassion can be understandably necessary. For an individual who allowed another to be victimized when the risks against them for reporting it are entirely negligent, no such sympathy should be spared.
I would rather be wrong in reporting a possible rape than be right in assuming she was willing or that others had done it for me.
teddybeardustin 2 years ago 2
Also, if this is the behavior of the vast majority of people, it hardly constitutes a syndrome. For something to be an abnormality, it must at the very least be uncommon.
unhealthytruthseeker 2 years ago
@unhealthytruthseeker Maybe we call it that in wishful thinking, hoping that the majority of people would help out.
pennsays 2 years ago
Though it may seem depressing, it actually helps to know that we as humans are prone to such behavior. Knowing that I have a tendency to diffuse responsibility allows me to be aware of it and force myself not to do it. The more you know about common human faults and mistakes, the less likely you are to make them.
unhealthytruthseeker 2 years ago
The bystanders in this case encouraged the rape, cheering the rapists, and laughing while taking cellphone pictures and videos.
steampunk18 2 years ago
You know the saying if you keep your mouth shut you are just as bad as the person who did the act it holds true here. I would stand up for someone if needed but others might need a push in the right direction. Sometimes Iraqi male soldiers from what I hear have a pact amongst each other to keep their mouths shut for each other in a situation where one of them rapes a female solider. It's so sad that a woman has to go through that. And I said sometimes so don't flame me.
Goobian 2 years ago
I have to agree.
These people voyeuristically participated in the crime. They found as much pleasure in simply watching as others did in their more tactile approach. They willfully encroached upon her, and for that, there is no valid excuse.
However, it is difficult to craft laws based on a complex set of circumstances in such a way that won't affect an innocent individual in the future.
This isn't a legal failure, it's a parenting failure.
teddybeardustin 2 years ago
I would say it is yet another failure of government. The government insists that we don't need guns because they'll protect us, so they disarm us and then fail to protect. If this was a gang almost assuredly one of THEM had a gun because they don't care about gun control. For the government to make a law to force you to aid someone is ridiculous. You cannot make someone virtuous with the threat of violence against them. With that said, there is a moral duty to help, and I would have.
viehe69 2 years ago
As pointed out below, many states and countries already have laws like this, and as far as I've been able to tell, the laws haven't really helped much. Some crimes still go unreported, and while a great many do get reported, there isn't much evidence that they were only reported do to the law. I've long agreed with your friend-- when people say there ought to be a law, there oughtn't.
kittyprydekissme 2 years ago
I think that it is too pathetic to consider that we need a law such as this.
When such numbers of people don't know how to behave in ways that are not so criminally negligent and stupid, I feel that as a society we face greater issues than what laws can fix or prevent.
The amount of disgust and contempt I hold for the people involved in this and did nothing to help is too much to express with a 500 character limitation. Only thing I can say is they make wish I believed in Hell.
teddybeardustin 2 years ago 2
I do see your point. If those people had compassion for the victim's suffering then they would have done something to help her right? But that doesn't change the fact that they had no compassion and looked on it (and took pictures) like it was entertainment. Something is seriously wrong there, and I completely agree they need to investigate it.
What I find even more disturbing is, not only did they do nothing to help her but, some of the onlookers actually JOINED IN.
DarkFireFae 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Such a law would stop people from coming forward later, which might have horrible consequence. It sounds like this was an obvious and brutal crime, but not all crimes will be this way. What if you only saw part of a crime, so it wasn't apparent until you connected the dots later or watched the news. Or indeed you were a bystander but can't prove you weren't paying attention (earbuds). Topic reminds me of the self incrimination issues mentioned in the "Don't Talk to Police" video on YouTube.
stereokid 2 years ago 2
Laws related to "failure to lend aid" are already on the books in many states, in various forms. It seems Europe has long had such laws along with criminal penalties for failing to lend aid when they could, as was the case with the photographers snapping pictures of Princess Diana while she lay bleeding in her wrecked car. Sometimes all it takes is a phone call.
stonehold1138 2 years ago
Most states have a similar law.. its called visiting a common nusance.. meaning a law is being broken and you know this and do nothing to stop or prevent it...
ding0925 2 years ago
I agree with the sentiment (punish those cowards), but it makes sense that you would have less people coming forth later- like Penn says- so fuck that. Seems like it would be a far too emotional law.
AnneOnAMoose 2 years ago
I had this conversation today (tutoring my friend for a debate class). Just because I disagree with something, or I think something is horrible, I don't think we should just add more laws to prevent it.
TrueEmergence 2 years ago 7