Fr. Frank Discusses the Recent Partial Birth Abortion Ruling

[wjl1970]

The argument that abortion is not really a woman's issue i.e. that there is a greater concern - that of the life of the fetus is only partially true. If you will not allow a women to have an abortion (at least in some extreme situations) then you better have appropriate supports for women after the baby is born! - unfortunately it has been proven through history that male clerics who do the most shouting haven't facilitated women after their babies are born e.g. the Magdelene laundries!

[wjl1970]

As a man - I encourage all men to stop the oppression of women and support pro-choice! Everyone should take a look at the history of the catholic church in Ireland - not only did members of this sinister organisation abuse many children - and unwed mothers as well - the extent of the cover ups after the fact are shocking. The all male clergy can hardly be trusted as guardians of the vulnerable. I stoped being a catholic when I reached the age of reason - it turns out I was right to do so.

[lyricsma]

that's okay. i get it, and were allowed to disagree. imagine how horrific and repugnant the concept forced motherhood is to others...

Boo Hoo. Don't want to be a mother? Then don't do something that will get you pregnant.

Pregnancy forced upon you? So sorry, that is truly horrific and you have my full sympathy, but it still does not justify killing someone innocent of your rape.

Spin this any way you like, a life is being terminated. No human has the right to end the life of another. Ever.

[Diannakw]

one has to get a life to end a life. a fetus has no real life, except that of it's mothers.

Abortion is not a violation of any right, because there is no such thing as the freedom to live inside of another human against the will of that person, such as in an unwanted pregnancy.any alleged "right" that by nature entails the violation of or contradicts the rights of another is not a right. There is no such thing as "trading one's rights for the rights of others."

[lyricsma]

@Diannakw Yes a fetus has a life. Its not a tumor growing on a woman, its a hu man being.

[Diannakw]

@lyrics

**Don't want to be a mother? Then don't do something that will get you pregnant.**

your vindictive, self-righteous attitude stems from a belief that sex is bad and must be punished. Motherhood should never be punishment for having sex. Forcing a child to be born to punish its mother is the ultimate in child abuse-you'll pass moral judgment on anyone who doesn't conform to his narrow mould... you're not unique.

[lyricsma]

@Diannakw Why would I think sex is bad? Its the most natural thing in the world. I myself would be incredibly unhappy if I could not have sex when I wanted it. You are imposing your own insecurities onto me. Like I asked in an earlier post, what do you know about me? You have no insight into my heart. I have refrained from name calling and insults. I wish you could do the same.

[Diannakw]

btw - abortion will never stop. ever. its a question of providing safe, legal abortion or letting desperate women suffer, or even die.

SAFE ABORTIONS ARE NECESSARY -It is what it is, and has always been. being pro-choice means wanting to keep abortion SAFE, LEGAL, and RARE. Prohibiting abortions does not stop them -it only kills and maims women, turn them into criminals, reduce them to second-class citizens, & only boosts buisness for back-alley abortionists who dont have to answer anyone.

[lyricsma]

@Diannakw Yes, it will stop someday. When the human race has learned to truly accept that life is sacred and respect the rights of every individual, including the unborn, it will stop. You can give up on humanity if you want to, forgive me if I think were better than this. Or rather, we can be better.

[Diannakw]

**life is sacred and respect the rights of every individual**

except womens lives and rights.

Any law that regulates pregnancy in any way, such as an abortion restriction, automatically amounts to discrimination against women, because only women get pregnant, not men. When pregnancy is regulated, it puts a special burden on women that is not placed on men, and this puts them at an unequal disadvantage in society

[lyricsma]

@Diannakw I am a woman. We do not have the same rights and we are discriminated against, I agree. Still does not change my feelings on abortion.

We can't ignore the rights of the unborn in favor of the rights of woman. To discriminate is wrong, period.

[Diannakw]

**Still does not change my feelings on abortion.**

i wouldn't want you to. i'm pro-choice. the ONLY thing i object to is when people suggest imposing their own morality on others who simply have DIFFERENT morals. i am NOT asking anyone to agree... but to at least try to understand.

it's pathetic how most other so-called "pro-lifers" make no effort to reach beyond their own subjective viewpoint to empathize with a human being whose beliefs differ from their own.

[sphynxalive]

@lyricsma Lyricsma you are a boon of truth to this forum. Good to see we have a lot of people taking the side of justice for the innocent and rational for those in darkness like Diannakw.

[Diannakw]

When it comes to abortion, the politics is separate from the personal. Almost all women who have abortions do so because, essentially, they recognize the necessity of being good mothers, and that having a child (or another child) right now will undermine the welfare of themselves and their existing or future families.

[Diannakw]

That is the true morality behind the abortion decision - the biological imperative to be a good mother - as well as the fundamental need to control one's own body and life (which is not an abstract right, but a sociobiological instinct).

[lyricsma]

@Diannakw I do not now, nor have I ever believed that all women who choose to abort their babies are heartless monsters. The desire to be a good mother is honorable, not to mention a damned hard job. The right to have control over your own body is completely understandable. That does not change the fact that killing another person is wrong.

I will never change how I feel about it. You feel differently. Enough said.

[Diannakw]

@lyrics

theyre so dogmatically convinced that fetuses are persons that theyre unable to comprehend that others might legitimately think theyre not. Anti-choicers are barely willing to even acknowledge this opposing position, let alone address it in any rational way.

We simply dont believe that an embryo or fetus has the same moral claim on us as born children and the women who bear them, or the same capacity to suffer and feel emotions.

[lyricsma]

@Diannakw Well I would say people on both sides of this issue can be accused of dogmatic thinking. I don't think you would run over a child with your car just because the kid was in your way. You would probably do all you could to prevent the death of that child. The children that are aborted are as real to me as that kid you swerved to avoid killing. There are people in my life who are dear to me that have had abortions. They are not monsters. They made a choice that I could never live with.

[Jakareh75]

@diannakw

Let me just ask you this: is a fetus one day before scheduled delivery a baby? If not, do you then believe that it is only by virtue of passing through the birth canal that he or she becomes human? That would be an utterly illogical position; the baby is not changed at the moment he or she leaves the mother's body, not physically, mentally or spiritually. And if a fetus is a baby one day before birth, is it not also a baby a month before, or three months?

[Diannakw]

@jakareh

their is no scientific, sociological, physical, philosophical, theoretical or religeous consensus on the matter. there is a wide divergence of opinion on the degree of "human beingness" of the fetus, and There will never be a consensus because of the subjective and unscientific nature of the claim. That's why we should give the benefit of the doubt to women and let them decide - because women are indisputable human beings and persons with rights.

[Jakareh75]

There is nothing subjective about it: a fetus at 8 months and 29 days has ALL the faculties of a human being and would be fully viable, provided he or she is healthy. And yet, according to you if a woman wanted to abort it she should be given the "benefit of the doubt". I submit you have admitted to supporting infanticide.

[Diannakw]

@jak

one has to get a life to end a life. a fetus has no real life, except that of it's mothers.

you can *submit* as much bullshit you make up as you want... doesn't change the fact it's a mere opinion and flawed personal interpretation. its an insult to women to assert that they are caually and routinley aborting their nine month old fetuses. grow up.

[Jakareh75]

@Diannakw

Hitler used racial, religious and political grounds to select victims for extermination. Abortionists use economics and personal convenience. One hardly is more moral than the other. Those of us who believe in God consider embryos to be human beings from the moment of conception, and even atheists should admit that after just a few weeks, an embryo has all the same human faculties as a live-born baby. If one is not allowed to be destroyed at a whim, the other should not either.

[Diannakw]

**even atheists should admit...**

"admit"? there is nothing to admit - everyone in the pro-choice community is well aware of what is inside a pregnant woman. but then, so is almost everyone over the age of six. AGAIN - we simply dont believe that an embryo or fetus has the same moral claim on us as BORN children and the women who bear them. period. and remember - we also support your choice to disagree. but ONLY for yourself.

[Diannakw]

As it is evil for someone else to dictate the use of her body by raping her, so it is evil for someone else to dictate the use of her body by forcing her to remain pregnant.

a fetus is not an actual human being, but a a POTENTIAL human being, just like an acorn is a potential oak tree. It contains all of the DNA of an oak tree, but it is not an oak tree. A fetus is not a minature baby. A baby, or adult, is a fetus actualized, just like a young oak tree is an acorn actualized.

[lyricsma]

@Diannakw And this is where we disagree. A fetus IS a human being. The fact that its in the earliest stages of his life makes no difference to me. I understand that you feel differently, but please try and imagine how horrific the concept of abortion is to someone who feels life is sacred.

[Jakareh75]

@Diannakw

Your acorn and oak comparison is simply a false analogy. Oak trees and human beings are utterly different not only biologically, but even more so spiritually, at least to Christians, though adherents of some silly neo-druidic cult may disagree.

What is certain, however, is that our society considers people and oak trees to be different. That is why I could go outside right and crush an acorn underfoot. I could also cut down the oak tree in my yard and make a table out of it.

[lyricsma]

I agree with you completely.

A life is being ended. A human life.

That is murder, plain and simple.

I get so sick of people trying to put this fairy tale spin on abortion. Its wrong. I don't give a fuck how badly the mother is being 'inconvenienced' by her pregnancy. Killing your offspring should never be allowed. Period.

[Diannakw]

Motherhood should never be punishment for having sex. Forcing a child to be born to punish its mother is the ultimate in child abuse. Anti-abortionists trivialize motherhood and childbirth by dismissing pregnancy as a mere inconvenience.

[lyricsma]

@Diannakw Who said the child has to stay with its mother? Motherhood is a privilege not a punishment. I read a short story ages ago by David Brin, and in it parenthood was a right that had to be earned. I remember finishing it wishing we could make the same laws today. Not everyone deserves to be a parent, but you just can't end a life because the mom can't handle it. Changes need to be made, abortion is just the easiest solution, not the right one.

[Diannakw]

@lyrics.

abortion is the right choice for some, but may not be for others - it isn't up to you to decide whats right for anyone else, and only somone as clueless as you would say abortion is an easy solution.

[lyricsma]

@Diannakw Clueless huh? And what grand and fantastic insight do you have regarding my inner life?  You are so concerned about the choices available to the mother, I am concerned with the ones who are given no choice at all.

[Diannakw]

@lyrics

Its unethical to bring life into the world just for the sake of life alone, and its child abuse to force an unwanted child to be born to a life of despair. To choose not to give birth when there's little foundation for that child's well-being is a moral and caring act. We simply dont believe that an embryo or fetus has the same moral claim on us as born children and the women who bear them

[Jakareh75]

Though no one knows the exact number, we can estimate there have been some 30 million legal abortions in the US since 1973. All told, Nazi Germany killed about 10 million people in concentration camps, including Jews, Gypsies, Slavs and opponents of the regime. Therefore, the United States of America is three times more genocidal than Nazi Germany, so far. Americans should pray that God will have enough mercy not to visit on them three times the punishment Nazi Germany received.

[Diannakw]

@Jakareh75

Hitler used racial grounds to exterminate Jews and other "undesirables." In the reproductive rights movement, no one is out to kill all embryos. It is an insult to the memory of human beings murdered by the Nazis to equate them with embryos for anti-abortion propaganda.

***********************

and are you kidding? who the hell says the united states are the worlds "moral leader"?

[Jakareh75]

@Diannakw

In short, even if you don't believe life begins at conception, it is a ridiculous and contemptibly dishonest proposition to say that it only begins at birth. Therefore, even if you don't concede that abortion is murder, you must admit there is only a fine line between it and murder.

[Diannakw]

35 years after the Supreme Court legalized abortion in the US, abortion rates are at their lowest level in 3 decades

Guttmacher Institute's 2005 survey- the abortion rate fell 9% in 5 years, to 19.4 abortions for every 1,000 women; the 1.2 million abortions in 2005 numbered 25% fewer than the high of 1.6 million in 1990 > That would seem to be good news, whether you view abortion as evil, a necessary evil, or a routine medical procedure no more morally troubling than a tooth extraction.

[Jakareh75]

Wow, the United States really is a moral leader in the world! Only 1.2 million babies were gruesomely murdered in 2005! That's only the entire population of Dallas, except every one of them was completely innocent! But, c'mon, Dallas isn't such a big city. Heck, I bet God didn't even notice that many abortions!

[Diannakw]

@rustydog008

Do u realize infanticide is rampant in countries where the overburdened women living in poverty dont have access to or arent able to control their childbearing, AND abortion is illegal? And in societies where abortion was illegal (i.e. communist romania) the rate of women attempted to have an abortion remained the SAME, but maternal mortality rates and child abandonment rates sky-rocketed? Is that pro-life, asshole?

[GhettoBlaster100]

I believe in prochoice before birth abortion but this way is discusting

[Diannakw]

only 1% of all abortions are preformed after 20 weeks ( witch is what the "fetus" in the video clearly is, if not older ) ONE! and they are further LIMITED to those with SEVERE fetal abnormalities. if the fetus is healthy and viable, they will deliver it, rather than abort. duh.

[mobiletop2]

be carefull all americans people nazis hac come to america

[EveryoneLovesSatan67]

Embrace me darkened one, strengthen my soul. Spew thy darkness into our world. And through the rotting gates heaven. Shadowy wisps will heal my wounds. Shadowy wisps will wound their prayers. Send me the loving peace of Lucifer. Send me the battered pieces of jesus christ. It is now time, we begin to move forward. Hordes of terror are waiting to strike them. Following a great leader into his war. With hoofs of steel, he'll crush thy body. You will give in to the might of Satan.

[camasta23m]

Dejan...I thought there was only One Person in One Essence (God), not 2 Persons. Mary was the Mother of Christ Jesus. Jesus is both God and Man "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God....and the Word (God) became flesh (a man) and dwelt among us." So tell me: So when Mary conceived Jesus in her womb...he was no longer God but only a man? No sir. He was both God and flesh. The only Gospel that is false is your personal interpretation of the Incarnation.

[Dejan2116]

And thats exactly what I was saying, that Jesus was God in the flesh, therefore he is a man and the God. And no, I believe in the Trinity. And no, Mary is not the Mother of God, God has a mother?HUH, she is the Mother of the son of man, not the Son of God. Besides Jesus answered you Catholics when he said "Anyone who does the will of God is my mother, my brother, and my sister". Stop Worshipping Mary and Praying to Saints, they dont hear your prayers, only one mediator, Jesus Christ, our God.

[camasta23m]

1 Corinthians 4:15

For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many *FATHERS*: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

So much for St. Paul...I guess you should damn him to Hell to?

[Dejan2116]

Its funny how Catholics interpret Scripture, lol, it makes me laugh. He says you have "NOT MANY" Fathers, which means we only have One.

[Dejan2116]

Hypocrits calling this man Father, REPENT FROM THIS WICKEDNESS, FALSE CHRISTIANITY IS CATHOLOSISM. Matthew 23:9 And CALL NO MAN YOUR FATHER UPON THE EARTH: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." Repent from this wickedness, praying to Mary is a sin, it is IDOLATRY. PS. She is NOT the Mother of God, she is the mother of the MAN, not the God. REPENT CATHOLICS! STOP PREACHING A FALSE GOSPEL ACCURSED PEOPLE(Galatians 1:6-9)!

[bombayblue52]

To Dejan2116:

Read "An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine" written by a protestant who became a catholic after all his research and writing, and tell me Catholicism is a false religion.

And, I will let God judge whether I am accursed or not.

Peace be with you. God bless.

[Dejan2116]

THat Protestant is then something we call , a decieved man. If you can show me where in the Bible it names the Bishop of Rome, I will become Catholic, untill then, you have a false religion. If you can show me where Mary is to be Honored by all men on earth, I will become Catholic, untill then, you have a false religion. If you can show me where a Priest can forgive your sins in the Bible, then I will become Catholic, untill them shut your mouth, you have a false religion.

[bombayblue52]

LOL! I will not shut my mouth! Why does Catholicism bother you so much? What do you care? I am not asking you to be a Catholic. I am certainly not telling you your religion is false. And, I don't know what religion you are, but your mean-spirit and hard-heart don't say very much good about it. Peace brother (?) sister? God bless.

[Dejan2116]

Because it's idolatry and the deception of Satan, Pope is idolatry, have you ever heard Catholics chant the Popes name, they for sure worship him, and Praying to Mary, this is sad and major Idolatry, she is but a woman, just a sinner who needed a saviour like everyone else. The only sinless man is Jesus Christ, not some women. I am concerned because I love my neighbour and don't want him to end up in hell, which is where all idolatrers go, the lake of Fire(Revelation 21:8). You need to Repent.

[bombayblue52]

I thank you Dejan for your wonderful inten-tions - loving your neighbours and not wanting them to end up in Hell. I think that is what Jesus would want you to do. (A softer approach may win more souls.) I just want you to know that I am 56 years old, and I converted to Catholicism in 2000 after years of studying Christianity, non-christian religions, cults, and tons of anti-Catholic material. If God is sending me to Hell for being a Catholic, well, so be it. God bless you. Peace.

[Dejan2116]

No, Catholic in its original meaning means, "UNIVERSAL" or Universal Christian. but the Roman Catholics of today have perverted that name, you need to stick to the doctrines of the Bible, not sacraments, or other traditions of man.

[renatazettek]

Believe me you are with NO doubt headed for the lake of fire yourself.With a one way ticket down on the fast track.

[Dejan2116]

I hope you leave Catholosism and believe on the true Gospel to eternal life.

[Xcesschick]

300 Partial Birth Abortions a DAY in USA, currently going on today! Now they just use saline, or c-section after injecting poison 2 kill the baby. Then it's body is either sold 2 Bill Gates researchers, or, it's trashed in a "Cradle of Filth" landfill. Parents who do this 2 their child r depraved & need help. More so, the politicians & media that rubber stamp approval r vile & inhumane. This is the ugliest act imaginable. No one goes waltzing happily after this is performed on them!

[renatazettek]

God Bless you Father.Please keep getting the word out to everyone NObama has a youtube video out claiming how when elected that the 1st thing he will do is stop the Supreme Court for over turning Roe vs. Wade.Thank God for you.We need your strength and courage to help the rest of us work for GOD and get the truth out about NObama.We need all of our Priests to take an active role in church and speak every week before the election about abortion and the Supremem Court and important it is to vote

[thereselittleflower]

Fr. Pavone, God bless you in all that you do for the Lord. I watched Defending Life on EWTN tonight with Maria, my wife, about the Missionaries of the Gospel of Life. We thank God for all of your ministry! We are doing simple stewardship in Baton Rouge per the National American Holocaust Memorial, where you have toured with Richard Mahoney and even celebrated the Holy Sacrifice of the Lord! We are so glad to hear about another Memorial being developed in Mobile Alabama next week. Godspeed!

[ExtraGarlicNow]

If abortion is unjust killing, it is being done so under protection of the civil authorities. In other words, civil authorities are collaborating in mass murder on an unimaginable scale, a literal WAR AGAINST PREBORN CHILDREN. Yet Fr. Pavone's church advocates only a pacifistic response and condemns true men of conscience like Paul Hill.

[renatazettek]

It's MURDER.What don't you get???

[ExtraGarlicNow]

It has never been considered murder to kill enemy combatants, not by solid Catholic Moral Teaching prior to Vatican II, anyways. Pacifist Absolutism is irrational, immoral, and faithless. It makes the pacifist a collaborator in MASS ABORTICIDE.

[renatazettek]

Shut the hell up.Not murder.What the hell do you call this evil? Wise up...you can't really be so stupid...or can you!!!

[ExtraGarlicNow]

your almost complete reliance on personal insults only reveals your own awareness of the weakness of any attempt at rational argument in defense of your fuzzy, ill-defined position. Be real, not reactive.

[renatazettek]

Anyone whom is willing to lay their own life down for another is far from weak. Only a weak person calls others weak when they have nothing better to say. I give my name, I hide under NO false identity.I would give my life for others even you.All life is from God and God only can take it.Abortion is murder & nothing else.Research more be4 you talk crap to me..And as far as real, I am all real as my name says.Not a cover up like "ExtraGarlicNow"What is your REAL name or r u afraid of others?

[ExtraGarlicNow]

I don't condemn Paul Hill, how did you ever get that idea? His friend, the Lutheran Minister Michael Bray visited me shortly after my own arrest years ago for setting fire to an abortion death camp. I include my name in a note directly to you. My discretion in not using it too openly is to protect friends and family from harassment for having association with me.

[odion07]

God bless you Father! From a new Seminarian!