HDGD is not a sword art that originates from ancient Korea. It was created recently by some persons. The founders testified as such at the Korean law court.
Why doesn't they use the traditional Korean sword “Hwando (環刀) ”? KRIGATA and SAGEO for thrusting into a belt are the features of Japanese sword. It is not the traditional Korean sword.
I can never find such old Korean sword or Korean soldier's photograph.
The traditional Korean sword was hung at the waist or the shoulder.
I find it amazing that the swords discovered last year at the Todaiji Temple in Nara called "Yohoken and "Inhoken" (These two names come at the top of a record of 100 swords donated by Empress Komyo 701-760) are IDENTICAL to Korean Hwandudaedo.
Rai Kunitoshi, 来国俊 note the three chinese characters* "観智院本『銘尽』によれば、来派は高麗（朝鮮）からの帰化人を出自とするという。" "According to 銘尽, (a historical genealogy book in Kamakura perfecture during Kamakura period), he come from Goryeo (Korea) and is a naturalized citizen from that origin." One of the great sword makers in Japanese history.
agilty is one thing the european horse lacked.but the had other virtues. so breeders started to breed them with arabians and barbs and other hot blooded horses to make warm bloods.giving you a horse that retained its size for the most part but had greater agilty. this is how we get our sport horses of today.
Well, they didn't necessarily /lack/ agility. The Mongolian steppe ponies simply had /more/ agility and endurance. The period you talk about is mostly after the Knight was obsolete. So the sheer shock force was no longer necessary.
ive handled a hand forged European sword it was though as shit... we cut cortse rock in half, damn but it weighed like 8 pounds.. but I still prefer the (shinken) its so far greater in combat to the euro style of fighting, a katana is far more capable and practical... speed and skill beats strangth.. just saying and yes i know .. i cant spell
cont. the western/European philosophy usually favors mass,power,strength and toughness i.e how hard a blow you can take.but with this you will lose speed and mobility in most cases.The eastern philosophy usually favors speed and mobilty aswell as accuracy with not some much emphisis on actual mass. in most cases this means that the combatant would not be able to absurb many heavy blows. both have there pros and cons. think about the european war horse and the mongel hordes ponies.
That's actually wholely inaccurate. Generally speaking Europeans can't rely upon having mass(As in, numerical superiority) due to the smaller population. So we rely upon smaller numbers of highly trained professional soldiers who have learned to focus their attacks so that they have more power to them. The European war horse wouldn't be nearly as big as you think, which I'm assuming to be something like a Clydesdale(Which would never be used in combat).
Greece and Rome have a pretty long history of mass of numbers. Clydesdale as a breed are only about 300 years old however if you look at the history of most Draft horses they have war-horse roots. For example the Percheron is considered by most to be the direct descent of a Destrier. They are easily 16 hand and come even bigger. I'm gonna have to side with the last two posters who feel the emphasis on speed & skill overcoming brute force.
Greece? Not really. Greece was generally always outnumbered by their opponents. Take the conflicts between the Persians and the Greeks for instance. As well, Rome only had numbers because of their logistics were superior to that of everyone else in the mediterranean world. They relied upon the skill and discipline of their soldiers however. So, I'm not noticing any use of brute force in western thought. Can you point to specific examples?
Ancient Greece has great examples (Thermopylae and Issus) of outnumbered highly skilled and motivated troops winning. However, we were discussing medieval battles and I would point to the Battle of Anchialus in 917, Dyrrhachium in 1081, Manzikert 1071, Myriokephalon 1176, Battle of Cairo 1221, Varna 1444...What was the norm and what was the exception...
First of all, Byzantium used a different type of martial doctrine, as does most of Eastern Europe. I'm specifically talking about Western Europe here, as they're the ones who primarily use these tactics. Especially by Western European standards the Byzantine martial theory was /antiquated/.
Also, where did I say that the idea of a smaller number of highly trained, well equipped, and highly motivated soldiers was superior?
"Generally speaking Europeans can't rely upon having mass(As in, numerical superiority) due to the smaller population. So we rely upon smaller numbers of highly trained professional soldiers who have learned to focus their attacks so that they have more power to them." -Caliburnis
Byzantium came /from/ Rome, and it was highly degenerated even at its conception. It didn't so much survive as linger for a thousand years afterwards. They resisted all military reforms, and were using ancient methods of warfare by the time the Crusades started. I draw the line between East and West based upon where the foundations of their nations are. if they're based upon Rome, the Germanic Tribes, and Greece, then it's the West. If not, then they're non-western.
As well, I hope you'd remember that while both the percheron and the clydesdale may have been bred from war horse stock originally, they are far larger, slower, and bulkier than the destrier was. From what I remember, 16 hands was actually the /upper limit/ of the size of the destrier. Regardless, they were not valued for their size but for their strength(Hence speed), and their toughness.
Montgisard? Several thousand(Less than five) infantry, 375 knights, and 80 Templars against 30,000 muslims. The Siege of Vienna? 17,000 Germans against 120,000 Turks. The most shocking one is actually the First Siege of Kruje, in which 1,500 Albanians defeat an army of 150,000 Ottomans. The Europeans are almost always outnumbered in these battles, so there is no room to argue that the Europeans rely upon mass numbers to defeat their opponents.
Crap, my previous post didn't go through. For instance, at the Battle of Marathon the Greeks fought with an army of 8,000-10,000 Greeks against a force of 20,000 to 60,000 Persians. At the battle of Ascalon the Crusaders fought with an army of 10,000 against an army of 50,000 muslims. Hattin? 16,000 Crusaders against 30,000 muslims. Dorylaeum? 10,000 Crusaders against 25-30,000 Muslims. The battles of Ramla? About 1,000 Crusaders against 10,000. Then 500 against 30,000.
Another example is Tours, where an army of something like 15,000-20,000 Franks defeat an army of Muslims upwards to 80,000 men. Generally speaking, the Europeans are consistently outnumbered when they fight other people.
Montgisard is an interesting choice given the controversy surrounding it. While I grew up believing it to be a fantastic victory, Egyptian history books have it the other way around. Vienna was clearly outside the Ottoman's logistical capability and if memory serves the tactic was only to weaken Vienna and Strike at Stygia. Kruje was also a seige and used firearms. The fortifications in each case defended by bow, spear and lance. There are no examples of skilled longsword use winning the day.
Touche! However the origine of this discussion is whether or not a longsword could do what can be done with a Katana. As a base for our discussion I assumed your arguments were in support of your position. You say it can, I say it can't. I put up my video and am awaiting a video of you doing the same with the sword of the video mine is in response to.
At the same time, I'm going to argue that it's relatively irrelevent whether or not you can spin and do all sorts of fancy moves with a sword. Europeans are practical, we don't see any need for that. As well part of what you see above is something that's been trained, which the WMArtists don't see any value in. At the same time, there's a movement in modern reproduction katana making to produce "competition" cutters which excel at cutting bamboo and tatami, but aren't suitable for combat.
Actually sit ups increase your physical condition, hence increasing your fighting capability. Doing practice cuts on bamboo or tatami helps as well, but not the showy exhibitions done here. Those don't do anything aside from teach you how to do showy exhibitions. Sparring is a much better pursuit.
I think that it is all good. While one might not necessarily help the other I think it important to be able to do the most things. I have studied Martial arts going on thirty years and still practice my katas with the same enthusiasm as I do my sparring.
Europeans of course have 'plays', which are similar to a Kata, I'd suppose. But we don't train them like you would a Kata, it's more to see a sequence of attacks and counter attacks. We prefer the 'Flourysh', and sparring as a way to build Muscle memory.
Still don't know, Buddy sold his sword. He thought it a chieftain but my recollection was it was more similar to the Duke as I don't remember the really big guard...I am thinking of ordering one to try it out...
Here's the thing, there isn't any one set design and use for european swords. They were dramatically diverse, as diverse as the people who used them. So you had your heavy, terrifying choppers like the Duke, while still having the smaller, more 'elegant' swords like the Crecy or Count. Then, you had swords which weren't intended for cutting at all, and had a focus upon the Thrust.
If it was the Duke, then that explains everything. The Chieftain as well. Those weren't designed with agility in mind, and they're purely focused upon a singular, powerful cut. That sword is /massive/, and it's not supposed to be used in an agile manner. For that, you'd want one of the smaller, or simply more responsive swords like the Count, Steward, Crecy, or Viceroy. My personal favorite is the Crecy.
Also, if you an provide a source for the argument that the Muslim army was outnumbered in Montgisard, I'll look into it.
As a side note, notice how I never gave any reasons for those armies winning. I just said that the European armies were outnumbered. Hence, they do not rely upon trying to outnumber their opponents.
Everybody, everywhere, everytime would rather have superior numbers. No one ever "relied" on inferior numbers to win battles/wars. When outnumbered, superior tactics and strategy and/or "the will to win" can win the day however given similar strategy and tactics I'd just as soon have the superior numbers.
Yes, they would. But the Europeans couldn't rely upon them, so they didn't try. Did I actually say that the Europeans would prefer inferior numbers? Not really. I simply said that we rely upon smaller numbers of highly trained soldiers. This is a truth.
Strength does not equate to speed. They carried heavily armoured Knights, wore armour themselves and had to carry all of the heavy longswords the knights were packing :)
Compared to mongolian horses or even arabians they were much larger.
Comparatively perhaps, but they were most certainly not slow. And once again, Longswords are not heavy. 2-4 pounds is not a significant weight. As well, the armor of a Knight is only going to weigh in between 45-65 pounds by the 1400s, and it's going to be lighter before the experimentations with Plate armor in the late 1300s. However, putting stuff on a horse does not equate into strength not equating into speed. That equates into weighing a strong animal down.
Wouldn't all that weight slow it down? I suspect a heavily laden War horse would be much slower than any of the recent winners of the kentucky derby...
Yes, but the strength itself isn't what slows it down. It's what they put on it. Muscle strength equates into the ability to push oneself. For instance, would you disagree that an olympic sprinter's legs are stronger than an average joe? Mass does of course count into this equation, but the European war horse wasn't heavy enough to lower its speed. Also, consider that there's a difference between /speed/ and /agility/.
A sprinter has heavier legs than a marathoner and will be faster in the 100 and slower in a marathon. The mongols conquered more real estate with superior numbers on light horses than did any European armies.
Agreed! That's exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. However, part of the success of the Mongols is that everyone they fought was tired and exhausted from other problems. Whenever the Mongols left their ideal combat conditions though, they got annihilated. For instance, look at Japan, and Vietnam. Then look at Hungary after Bela IV modernized his defensive systems and how they fared against the Mamluks.
wrong word on my part,as i was referring to actual size and strength of the individual.not of the army.i know european horses where not as big as most horses of today.but the where bigger and stronger than most others. even in modern times the western mind tends to think that ones size and strength will be an advantage and normally it would be.but generally people dont have size so they rely on other things.
Generally speaking, Asians think that as well. Have you ever read the Romance of the Three Kingdoms? Kuan Yu, Lu Bu, Chang Fei, Lu Meng, and Xiahou Tun are all portrayed as being exceedingly large. Kuan Yu and Lu bu in particular. Why? To make them seem that much more powerful than their contemporaries who are more known for their personality qualities than their fighting prowess alone, like Chao Yun, or Liu Bei.
In personal combat, as in martial arts, your argument doesn't really make sense. For instance, a European sword is not heavy. A longsword, for instance, weighs in between 2-4 pounds. Now, how much do Asian two handed swords weigh? 2-4 pounds. European combat tactics actually do not revolve around "taking a blow", especially not in single combat. Plate armor was designed in case you were not able to deflect that strike. Your primary form of defense would be a weapon, or a shield.
If the "Longsword" you handled was 38 inches and 3lbs it sounds like it was grossly A-historical, it is unlikely you have ever handled a historically accurate Longsword and therefore you don't actually know how a Longsword handles, sadly the market today is flooded with A-historical crap,and only a few select providers offer accurate weapons Period Longswords are usually around 40 some inches weighing 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 lbs. Final question do you spar in your system? Or is it all acrobatics?
Cute. We are required to be capable of both. While most of the acrobatics don't translate well in one on one; the conditioning is great for actual fighting. Being able to deliver an excellent strike while moving in and out of position is something that is good to practice. I've been sparring both full contact and semi contact for about 28 years.
I have to back Zwerchau up on this one. 3 lbs is pretty heavy for a longsword that's less than 40 inches long. I'd really like it if you could tell me where you got the sword. I know you said you don't know where, but I'd appreciate it if you could find out for me?
My buddy said it was made by Albion swords and that the blade length was only 36 inches with a 10 inch handle and he thought it was a little heavier than 3 pounds. Very nice sword but I still prefer my Jingum for cutting. I will say that it was better than my Paul Chen Golden Orchid for cutting but that sword pales by comparison with most of my other ones.
Well, again I'll ask here. Are your jingums designed under specifications for combat? Or are they designed for cutting bamboo? As in, is it a competition cutter?
Please go to the Albion website and tell me which sword it is. I'm beginning to feel here that you simply don't know the intricacies of a European sword, at least.
For a Longsword that's overall length is 46 inches and weighs a little over 3 pounds, it could be any of the following; the Duke, The Agincourt, the Talhoffer, the Ringeck, or the Fiore.
If the blunt sword guy can do the same with his sword as the Gumdo Master in the video then I think the point he makes in his video is valid. However, I would argue a single cut on bamboo is fairly easy and does not impress. On the other hand, multiple cuts done in sequence perfectly while moving does... I am not convinced a big heavy blunt sword could be used to do what is in my video response. Am I crazy?
The whole point of that video is that cutting bamboo is /not/ impressive. You seem to have missed the point of that video entirely, as it was designed as a rebuttal to those who claim that a katana is superior /because/ it cuts bamboo so easily. The fact, is that /any/ sword worth its weight can cut bamboo, or tatami mats.
Secondly, and a more minor note, I don't see how you can associate "big", or "heavy" with the type of sword John C. was using in that video. The average longsword weighs about the same as an average katana, though it is in fact lighter per inch of length.
Having handled and cut with both I find the balance of a fine longsword further away from the hand position, while a well made Jinggum or Katana has a balance point relatively closer to your hand position making it feel lighter in the hands.
The overall weights are similar but the density of a well made Jingum or Katana is higher. This balance allows better flow, speed and change of direction which in turns lets you do more with it. Think Porsche versus Winnebago...both, incidentally, good at going straight at 100km per hour on a highway...one better on a windy road in the alps...
Well, this all depends upon the longsword in question. Which Oakeshott Type were you handling? Different styles of Longsword have wildly different handling, unlike katana which have less variation. I really disagree with the 'porsche' versus 'Winnebago' analogy, it's nonsense.
As well, you're one of the only people I know of who argue that the Longsword doesn't handle as easily as a katana, and in fact I've seen many people, myself included, who feel that the katana is /harder/ to handle than a katana. Longswords are very easy to change direction, and in fact I'd argue you can do far more with it than you can with a katana(Due to the back edge).
As well, you're one of the only people I know of who argue that the Longsword doesn't handle as easily as a katana, and in fact I've seen many people, myself included, who feel that the katana is /harder/ to handle than a Longsword. Longswords are very easy to change direction, and in fact I'd argue you can do far more with it than you can with a katana(Due to the back edge).
The "Winnebago" analogy smacks of "Haha, stupid white people, they don't know how to make swords." But it's patently ridiculous. The Europeans had swords about the size of the katana, or shorter, like the Katzbalger, and if there had been such an obvious increase in skill you would have seen an arms race for swords about the size of the katana, and curved as well.
You'd see the battlefield flooded with 36 inch Kriegsmessers. Because this never happened, we can infer that there was no significant improvement of use in the smaller, denser swords.
You're basically forgetting that the purpose of the Pommel was to balance the blade, and make it so that the weight of the sword is balanced just a little bit above the guard. I'll ask, what Longsword type did you handle, who made it, and how were you handling it(For instance, how did you grip it)?
Okay, I'd like to think I have an open mind. I will let my video stand as an example of what can be done with a Jinggum and you put up a similar video with longsword.
I don't really need to post another video. There's already several with James Williams. "James Williams Cuts Tatami Omote w Albion Sword" (made even more impressive that it's a one handed sword), and "Ancient Edge Bastard Sword Cutting Demo (Tameshigiri)" for instance.
The James Williams clips are great and I think demonstrate both good skill and a fine weapon. I particularly like his use of the back hand with the double edge. The movements however are both slower and less complex than the movements on bamboo in my video which only reinforces my position.
You do realize that he was doing it /casually/, right? We don't really stress the ability to mindlessly jump around and chop bamboo into pieces because, frankly, that doesn't help us fight. You're committing the logical fallacy that if someone isn't showing something, they can't do it. We simply see no need to do more than what they show. The exhibition here is simply for the spectator's enjoyment. All the spins, and fancy cuts are actually quite useless in combat.
Logical fallacy? I am requesting you back your words with actions. If you can't or won't there is no fallacy. While your inability to back your words with proof does not disprove your argument it doesn't prove it either. I am merely offering you the chance to provide evidence. If you can't that is okay, but don't expect me to change my opinion without the evidence.
Do the moves in the video at same speed on bamboo with a longsword and I will change my opinion and declare you correct. (Gauntlet tossed on ground):)
Sorry, that would have more to do with my own skill than the quality of the sword. That's not objective at all. Where did I say that /I/ was better than the people in the video, in the first place?
Fair enough. Here is what I can tell you. I can do/have done the stuff in the video with a Katana and I have not been able to do the same with a longsword...you say it can be done. taking you at your word, I would love to see it as I find it quite difficult.
Once again, your ability to do that with a Longsword depends greatly upon its manufacture. You should find out where you got it. How much did it cost, for instance? And what Oakeshott type is it? Also, I'm curious as to what you're thinking of when you're talking about "Longsword". What is a Longsword, from your knowledge?
I also can't stress the next point enough. You're not trained in how to use a European sword, so naturally your ability to use a European sword is going to be inferior to that of your skill to use a Katana. Katana are curved, and stiff, for instance. Longswords (at least those with a focus upon cutting) are straight edged and flexible. This is another important point. The Longsword you have experience with, was it designed for Cutting, or for Thrusting?
Oh crap, another problem which totally slipped my mind. I automatically assumed you had katana which were based on the same designs as those for actual combat. Are the katana you use of the type I just mentioned, or are they "competition cutters"? There is a trend in katana manufacture today of making swords that are specifically designed to cutting tatami quickly, precisely, and elaborately, but they are /not/ suited to actual combat at all. They're very structurally weak, I believe.
Also, the logical fallacy wasn't in any request for evidence. It was in your assumption the because you haven't seen a European sword do the fancy, flashy moves of the video, then that means it cannot. That's the logical fallacy.
There's no evidence that the katana is a superior sword to the Langschwert. Both weigh the same, both have similar balances, and both operate in similar manners. You're confusing the flashy exhibitionism of Eastern martial arts with superior quality. This is not so.
My apologies if my Winnebago comment offended you. I was only commenting on personal experience and perhaps the sword I was using was sub par. The katana and Jingum I use are of the highest quality and perhaps it is an unfair comparison. However...
However nothing. It's dishonest to compare a sub-par example of a weapon against a high quality example of another weapon. Quick question, how much did the example you used weigh?
Anyway, you're misunderstanding the nature of that video. It's not about the katana itself, so much as people's perceptions of the katana, and those who use tatami and bamboo as examples of the Katana's superiority over Western swords. A good example is that if you look around, you'll find people who suggest that a Western sword would shatter upon impact with Tatami and bamboo. The video refers to the fact that the katana cutting bamboo is not a unique characteristic of the katana /itself/.
For Bamboo cutting I used a 3 pound 38 inch English made High Carbon Steel longsword with a 10 inch handle. I have a number of Katanas and Jinggums all of very high quality steel some of which weigh more than the Longsword but are "lighter" when swinging them around.
I took a look at the videos and they were great but still not as impressive as I have done/seen done with a Jinggum. what kind of Katana have you used in your comparisons?
The point wasn't that those videos would trump your video. It's that a european sword can match the performance of a japanese (Or korean one). As well, here's the difference between you and I. I'm not taking just my own experience with eastern weapons into account. I'm taking the experiences of dozens of other martial artists that I know of; many of whom are Eastern, into account. I have to ask. In the Video you're responding to, you do realize that the sword was intentionally blunted, right?
Cutting bamboo or tatami is no big deal. It has more to do with a person's individual skill at cutting those two things than the qualities of the weapon. John Clements cutting the bamboo with a blunt sword proves this. I've seen people make mincemeat out of tatami using a /seax/.
If the blunt sword guy can do the same with his sword as the Gumdo Master in the video then I think the point he makes in his video is valid. However, I would argue a single cut on bamboo is fairly easy and does not impress. On the other hand, multiple cuts done in sequence perfectly while moving does... I am not convinced a big heavy blunt sword could be used to do what is in my video response. Am I crazy?
this is a reply to the white idiot who posted the self glorifying narcissistic video of himself making a mockery of bamboo cutting because it demonstrates how wrong and ridiculous his idiosyncratic views are on sword art.
I don't see how. First of all, he never posted the video here himself. Someone went onto another site and /then/ posted it. Second, the video only makes a mockery of those who claim that cutting bamboo or tatami is some sort of mark of honor for a weapon. Anything else is placed there solely by people who go into these things assuming that the person is "racist" or an "ideologue".
Also, what does his skin tone have to do with this discussion, anyway?
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HDGD is not a sword art that originates from ancient Korea. It was created recently by some persons. The founders testified as such at the Korean law court.
Why doesn't they use the traditional Korean sword “Hwando (環刀) ”? KRIGATA and SAGEO for thrusting into a belt are the features of Japanese sword. It is not the traditional Korean sword.
I can never find such old Korean sword or Korean soldier's photograph.
The traditional Korean sword was hung at the waist or the shoulder.
enushisama 1 week ago
Where can the rules for these competitions be found?
Baihu108 2 months ago
Where can the rules to how these competitions are judged be found?
Baihu108 2 months ago
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I find it amazing that the swords discovered last year at the Todaiji Temple in Nara called "Yohoken and "Inhoken" (These two names come at the top of a record of 100 swords donated by Empress Komyo 701-760) are IDENTICAL to Korean Hwandudaedo.
HDGDisnotfromkendo 4 months ago
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Rai Kunitoshi, 来国俊 note the three chinese characters* "観智院本『銘尽』によれば、来派は高麗（朝鮮）からの帰化人を出自とするという。" "According to 銘尽, (a historical genealogy book in Kamakura perfecture during Kamakura period), he come from Goryeo (Korea) and is a naturalized citizen from that origin." One of the great sword makers in Japanese history.
HDGDisnotfromkendo 4 months ago
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Please watch
watch?v=uQ5zOKB3yzw
enushisama 6 months ago
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朝鮮王朝實録：The Annals of the choson Dynasty (The True Record of the Korean Dynasty)…
【June 11, 1480】矧惟國人, 不慣槍劍, 專業弓矢, 爲禦敵之備
The people were not accustomed to use of sword or spear, defended from enemies only by archery...
【October 13, 1592】上敎政院曰“我國絶無劒手”
The king said “There was no swordman in our country at all”...
【July 11, 1594】我國自古劍術不傳
There has not been descendent any swordplay from ancient time in our country...
enushisama 6 months ago
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武藝圖譜通志Muye Dobo Tongji (1790) : Comprehensive Illustrated Manual of Martial Arts in Korea .
[It is an official document at a Korean Dynasty, written by The Korean King order in the 18th century]
國練兵之制三軍練于郊，衛士練于禁苑，其禁苑練兵盛自 光廟朝，然止弓矢一技而已如槍劍法技，既未之聞焉，
Archery was the only martial art that had been practiced by Korean soldiers. They have no skills of sword or spear fighting (17th).
購得戚繼光紀效新書遣訓局郎韓嶠遍質東來將士
Therefore, Koreans began learning sword skills and others from Chinese.
enushisama 7 months ago
wow very cool strikes!he can cut you in pieces!!!
anestischatzibeis 1 year ago
that guy is amazing!! that 3 bamboo combo was awesome
futrico69 2 years ago
agilty is one thing the european horse lacked.but the had other virtues. so breeders started to breed them with arabians and barbs and other hot blooded horses to make warm bloods.giving you a horse that retained its size for the most part but had greater agilty. this is how we get our sport horses of today.
burnitdown01 3 years ago
Well, they didn't necessarily /lack/ agility. The Mongolian steppe ponies simply had /more/ agility and endurance. The period you talk about is mostly after the Knight was obsolete. So the sheer shock force was no longer necessary.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
i know. but i thought it would be interesting to note what became of our war horses.cheers.
burnitdown01 3 years ago
ive handled a hand forged European sword it was though as shit... we cut cortse rock in half, damn but it weighed like 8 pounds.. but I still prefer the (shinken) its so far greater in combat to the euro style of fighting, a katana is far more capable and practical... speed and skill beats strangth.. just saying and yes i know .. i cant spell
verprose 3 years ago
cont. the western/European philosophy usually favors mass,power,strength and toughness i.e how hard a blow you can take.but with this you will lose speed and mobility in most cases.The eastern philosophy usually favors speed and mobilty aswell as accuracy with not some much emphisis on actual mass. in most cases this means that the combatant would not be able to absurb many heavy blows. both have there pros and cons. think about the european war horse and the mongel hordes ponies.
burnitdown01 3 years ago
That's actually wholely inaccurate. Generally speaking Europeans can't rely upon having mass(As in, numerical superiority) due to the smaller population. So we rely upon smaller numbers of highly trained professional soldiers who have learned to focus their attacks so that they have more power to them. The European war horse wouldn't be nearly as big as you think, which I'm assuming to be something like a Clydesdale(Which would never be used in combat).
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Greece and Rome have a pretty long history of mass of numbers. Clydesdale as a breed are only about 300 years old however if you look at the history of most Draft horses they have war-horse roots. For example the Percheron is considered by most to be the direct descent of a Destrier. They are easily 16 hand and come even bigger. I'm gonna have to side with the last two posters who feel the emphasis on speed & skill overcoming brute force.
Skidder007 3 years ago
Greece? Not really. Greece was generally always outnumbered by their opponents. Take the conflicts between the Persians and the Greeks for instance. As well, Rome only had numbers because of their logistics were superior to that of everyone else in the mediterranean world. They relied upon the skill and discipline of their soldiers however. So, I'm not noticing any use of brute force in western thought. Can you point to specific examples?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Ancient Greece has great examples (Thermopylae and Issus) of outnumbered highly skilled and motivated troops winning. However, we were discussing medieval battles and I would point to the Battle of Anchialus in 917, Dyrrhachium in 1081, Manzikert 1071, Myriokephalon 1176, Battle of Cairo 1221, Varna 1444...What was the norm and what was the exception...
Skidder007 3 years ago
First of all, Byzantium used a different type of martial doctrine, as does most of Eastern Europe. I'm specifically talking about Western Europe here, as they're the ones who primarily use these tactics. Especially by Western European standards the Byzantine martial theory was /antiquated/.
Also, where did I say that the idea of a smaller number of highly trained, well equipped, and highly motivated soldiers was superior?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
"Generally speaking Europeans can't rely upon having mass(As in, numerical superiority) due to the smaller population. So we rely upon smaller numbers of highly trained professional soldiers who have learned to focus their attacks so that they have more power to them." -Caliburnis
Skidder007 3 years ago
Yup, I said that.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
ummm okay..so you are only talking about Western European Medieval longswords then...
Skidder007 3 years ago
...How do you even get that from what I was saying?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Where not Greece and Rome part of Byzantium? Where do you draw the line on east and west?
Skidder007 3 years ago
Byzantium came /from/ Rome, and it was highly degenerated even at its conception. It didn't so much survive as linger for a thousand years afterwards. They resisted all military reforms, and were using ancient methods of warfare by the time the Crusades started. I draw the line between East and West based upon where the foundations of their nations are. if they're based upon Rome, the Germanic Tribes, and Greece, then it's the West. If not, then they're non-western.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Notice also how I said /generally speaking/.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
As well, I hope you'd remember that while both the percheron and the clydesdale may have been bred from war horse stock originally, they are far larger, slower, and bulkier than the destrier was. From what I remember, 16 hands was actually the /upper limit/ of the size of the destrier. Regardless, they were not valued for their size but for their strength(Hence speed), and their toughness.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Montgisard? Several thousand(Less than five) infantry, 375 knights, and 80 Templars against 30,000 muslims. The Siege of Vienna? 17,000 Germans against 120,000 Turks. The most shocking one is actually the First Siege of Kruje, in which 1,500 Albanians defeat an army of 150,000 Ottomans. The Europeans are almost always outnumbered in these battles, so there is no room to argue that the Europeans rely upon mass numbers to defeat their opponents.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Crap, my previous post didn't go through. For instance, at the Battle of Marathon the Greeks fought with an army of 8,000-10,000 Greeks against a force of 20,000 to 60,000 Persians. At the battle of Ascalon the Crusaders fought with an army of 10,000 against an army of 50,000 muslims. Hattin? 16,000 Crusaders against 30,000 muslims. Dorylaeum? 10,000 Crusaders against 25-30,000 Muslims. The battles of Ramla? About 1,000 Crusaders against 10,000. Then 500 against 30,000.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Another example is Tours, where an army of something like 15,000-20,000 Franks defeat an army of Muslims upwards to 80,000 men. Generally speaking, the Europeans are consistently outnumbered when they fight other people.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Montgisard is an interesting choice given the controversy surrounding it. While I grew up believing it to be a fantastic victory, Egyptian history books have it the other way around. Vienna was clearly outside the Ottoman's logistical capability and if memory serves the tactic was only to weaken Vienna and Strike at Stygia. Kruje was also a seige and used firearms. The fortifications in each case defended by bow, spear and lance. There are no examples of skilled longsword use winning the day.
Skidder007 3 years ago
Straw man argument. I never said that the Longsword was what won those battles.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Touche! However the origine of this discussion is whether or not a longsword could do what can be done with a Katana. As a base for our discussion I assumed your arguments were in support of your position. You say it can, I say it can't. I put up my video and am awaiting a video of you doing the same with the sword of the video mine is in response to.
Skidder007 3 years ago
At the same time, I'm going to argue that it's relatively irrelevent whether or not you can spin and do all sorts of fancy moves with a sword. Europeans are practical, we don't see any need for that. As well part of what you see above is something that's been trained, which the WMArtists don't see any value in. At the same time, there's a movement in modern reproduction katana making to produce "competition" cutters which excel at cutting bamboo and tatami, but aren't suitable for combat.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Situps are irrelevant too but being able to do them improves your sword work...for actual combat I think I would lean towards an M16...
Skidder007 3 years ago
Actually sit ups increase your physical condition, hence increasing your fighting capability. Doing practice cuts on bamboo or tatami helps as well, but not the showy exhibitions done here. Those don't do anything aside from teach you how to do showy exhibitions. Sparring is a much better pursuit.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
I think that it is all good. While one might not necessarily help the other I think it important to be able to do the most things. I have studied Martial arts going on thirty years and still practice my katas with the same enthusiasm as I do my sparring.
Skidder007 3 years ago
Europeans of course have 'plays', which are similar to a Kata, I'd suppose. But we don't train them like you would a Kata, it's more to see a sequence of attacks and counter attacks. We prefer the 'Flourysh', and sparring as a way to build Muscle memory.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
very true
burnitdown01 3 years ago
Now, can you tell me which of the swords from Albion was the one you tried out?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Still don't know, Buddy sold his sword. He thought it a chieftain but my recollection was it was more similar to the Duke as I don't remember the really big guard...I am thinking of ordering one to try it out...
Skidder007 3 years ago
Here's the thing, there isn't any one set design and use for european swords. They were dramatically diverse, as diverse as the people who used them. So you had your heavy, terrifying choppers like the Duke, while still having the smaller, more 'elegant' swords like the Crecy or Count. Then, you had swords which weren't intended for cutting at all, and had a focus upon the Thrust.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Youtube ate another of my posts.
If it was the Duke, then that explains everything. The Chieftain as well. Those weren't designed with agility in mind, and they're purely focused upon a singular, powerful cut. That sword is /massive/, and it's not supposed to be used in an agile manner. For that, you'd want one of the smaller, or simply more responsive swords like the Count, Steward, Crecy, or Viceroy. My personal favorite is the Crecy.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Cool, I'll check it out.
Skidder007 3 years ago
Also, if you an provide a source for the argument that the Muslim army was outnumbered in Montgisard, I'll look into it.
As a side note, notice how I never gave any reasons for those armies winning. I just said that the European armies were outnumbered. Hence, they do not rely upon trying to outnumber their opponents.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Everybody, everywhere, everytime would rather have superior numbers. No one ever "relied" on inferior numbers to win battles/wars. When outnumbered, superior tactics and strategy and/or "the will to win" can win the day however given similar strategy and tactics I'd just as soon have the superior numbers.
Skidder007 3 years ago
Yes, they would. But the Europeans couldn't rely upon them, so they didn't try. Did I actually say that the Europeans would prefer inferior numbers? Not really. I simply said that we rely upon smaller numbers of highly trained soldiers. This is a truth.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Strength does not equate to speed. They carried heavily armoured Knights, wore armour themselves and had to carry all of the heavy longswords the knights were packing :)
Compared to mongolian horses or even arabians they were much larger.
Skidder007 3 years ago
Comparatively perhaps, but they were most certainly not slow. And once again, Longswords are not heavy. 2-4 pounds is not a significant weight. As well, the armor of a Knight is only going to weigh in between 45-65 pounds by the 1400s, and it's going to be lighter before the experimentations with Plate armor in the late 1300s. However, putting stuff on a horse does not equate into strength not equating into speed. That equates into weighing a strong animal down.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Wouldn't all that weight slow it down? I suspect a heavily laden War horse would be much slower than any of the recent winners of the kentucky derby...
Skidder007 3 years ago
Yes, but the strength itself isn't what slows it down. It's what they put on it. Muscle strength equates into the ability to push oneself. For instance, would you disagree that an olympic sprinter's legs are stronger than an average joe? Mass does of course count into this equation, but the European war horse wasn't heavy enough to lower its speed. Also, consider that there's a difference between /speed/ and /agility/.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
A sprinter has heavier legs than a marathoner and will be faster in the 100 and slower in a marathon. The mongols conquered more real estate with superior numbers on light horses than did any European armies.
Skidder007 3 years ago
Agreed! That's exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. However, part of the success of the Mongols is that everyone they fought was tired and exhausted from other problems. Whenever the Mongols left their ideal combat conditions though, they got annihilated. For instance, look at Japan, and Vietnam. Then look at Hungary after Bela IV modernized his defensive systems and how they fared against the Mamluks.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Once again though, I've never made the argument that the European method is superior. That's something you're injecting all on your own.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Well as far as Japan is concerned, the mongols should have invested in better boats.
Skidder007 3 years ago
Exactly, they didn't know how to fight outside of their own method.
Caliburnis 3 years ago 2
wrong word on my part,as i was referring to actual size and strength of the individual.not of the army.i know european horses where not as big as most horses of today.but the where bigger and stronger than most others. even in modern times the western mind tends to think that ones size and strength will be an advantage and normally it would be.but generally people dont have size so they rely on other things.
burnitdown01 3 years ago
Generally speaking, Asians think that as well. Have you ever read the Romance of the Three Kingdoms? Kuan Yu, Lu Bu, Chang Fei, Lu Meng, and Xiahou Tun are all portrayed as being exceedingly large. Kuan Yu and Lu bu in particular. Why? To make them seem that much more powerful than their contemporaries who are more known for their personality qualities than their fighting prowess alone, like Chao Yun, or Liu Bei.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
In personal combat, as in martial arts, your argument doesn't really make sense. For instance, a European sword is not heavy. A longsword, for instance, weighs in between 2-4 pounds. Now, how much do Asian two handed swords weigh? 2-4 pounds. European combat tactics actually do not revolve around "taking a blow", especially not in single combat. Plate armor was designed in case you were not able to deflect that strike. Your primary form of defense would be a weapon, or a shield.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
What is the weight of the sword used by the Dude in the video?
Skidder007 3 years ago
If the "Longsword" you handled was 38 inches and 3lbs it sounds like it was grossly A-historical, it is unlikely you have ever handled a historically accurate Longsword and therefore you don't actually know how a Longsword handles, sadly the market today is flooded with A-historical crap,and only a few select providers offer accurate weapons Period Longswords are usually around 40 some inches weighing 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 lbs. Final question do you spar in your system? Or is it all acrobatics?
Zwerchhau 3 years ago
Cute. We are required to be capable of both. While most of the acrobatics don't translate well in one on one; the conditioning is great for actual fighting. Being able to deliver an excellent strike while moving in and out of position is something that is good to practice. I've been sparring both full contact and semi contact for about 28 years.
Skidder007 3 years ago
I have to back Zwerchau up on this one. 3 lbs is pretty heavy for a longsword that's less than 40 inches long. I'd really like it if you could tell me where you got the sword. I know you said you don't know where, but I'd appreciate it if you could find out for me?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
My buddy said it was made by Albion swords and that the blade length was only 36 inches with a 10 inch handle and he thought it was a little heavier than 3 pounds. Very nice sword but I still prefer my Jingum for cutting. I will say that it was better than my Paul Chen Golden Orchid for cutting but that sword pales by comparison with most of my other ones.
Skidder007 3 years ago
Well, again I'll ask here. Are your jingums designed under specifications for combat? Or are they designed for cutting bamboo? As in, is it a competition cutter?
Please go to the Albion website and tell me which sword it is. I'm beginning to feel here that you simply don't know the intricacies of a European sword, at least.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
For a Longsword that's overall length is 46 inches and weighs a little over 3 pounds, it could be any of the following; the Duke, The Agincourt, the Talhoffer, the Ringeck, or the Fiore.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Hey, where'd you go? :>
Caliburnis 3 years ago
training :)
Skidder007 3 years ago
Finally a video showing someone cutting bamboo fast and accurately.
Deathend 3 years ago
Kind of like in "James Williams cuts tatami"?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
With the Knight, of course.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Caliburnis obviously has the intelligance of a pea if he sees no relevance, nice video man.
3313me 4 years ago
The rest of us spell it "intelligence", but what do I know?
Caliburnis 4 years ago
If the blunt sword guy can do the same with his sword as the Gumdo Master in the video then I think the point he makes in his video is valid. However, I would argue a single cut on bamboo is fairly easy and does not impress. On the other hand, multiple cuts done in sequence perfectly while moving does... I am not convinced a big heavy blunt sword could be used to do what is in my video response. Am I crazy?
Skidder007 4 years ago
The whole point of that video is that cutting bamboo is /not/ impressive. You seem to have missed the point of that video entirely, as it was designed as a rebuttal to those who claim that a katana is superior /because/ it cuts bamboo so easily. The fact, is that /any/ sword worth its weight can cut bamboo, or tatami mats.
Caliburnis 4 years ago
Secondly, and a more minor note, I don't see how you can associate "big", or "heavy" with the type of sword John C. was using in that video. The average longsword weighs about the same as an average katana, though it is in fact lighter per inch of length.
Caliburnis 4 years ago
Having handled and cut with both I find the balance of a fine longsword further away from the hand position, while a well made Jinggum or Katana has a balance point relatively closer to your hand position making it feel lighter in the hands.
Skidder007 3 years ago
The overall weights are similar but the density of a well made Jingum or Katana is higher. This balance allows better flow, speed and change of direction which in turns lets you do more with it. Think Porsche versus Winnebago...both, incidentally, good at going straight at 100km per hour on a highway...one better on a windy road in the alps...
Skidder007 3 years ago
Well, this all depends upon the longsword in question. Which Oakeshott Type were you handling? Different styles of Longsword have wildly different handling, unlike katana which have less variation. I really disagree with the 'porsche' versus 'Winnebago' analogy, it's nonsense.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
As well, you're one of the only people I know of who argue that the Longsword doesn't handle as easily as a katana, and in fact I've seen many people, myself included, who feel that the katana is /harder/ to handle than a katana. Longswords are very easy to change direction, and in fact I'd argue you can do far more with it than you can with a katana(Due to the back edge).
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Wow,I messed up.
As well, you're one of the only people I know of who argue that the Longsword doesn't handle as easily as a katana, and in fact I've seen many people, myself included, who feel that the katana is /harder/ to handle than a Longsword. Longswords are very easy to change direction, and in fact I'd argue you can do far more with it than you can with a katana(Due to the back edge).
Caliburnis 3 years ago
The "Winnebago" analogy smacks of "Haha, stupid white people, they don't know how to make swords." But it's patently ridiculous. The Europeans had swords about the size of the katana, or shorter, like the Katzbalger, and if there had been such an obvious increase in skill you would have seen an arms race for swords about the size of the katana, and curved as well.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
You'd see the battlefield flooded with 36 inch Kriegsmessers. Because this never happened, we can infer that there was no significant improvement of use in the smaller, denser swords.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
You're basically forgetting that the purpose of the Pommel was to balance the blade, and make it so that the weight of the sword is balanced just a little bit above the guard. I'll ask, what Longsword type did you handle, who made it, and how were you handling it(For instance, how did you grip it)?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Okay, I'd like to think I have an open mind. I will let my video stand as an example of what can be done with a Jinggum and you put up a similar video with longsword.
Skidder007 3 years ago
I don't really need to post another video. There's already several with James Williams. "James Williams Cuts Tatami Omote w Albion Sword" (made even more impressive that it's a one handed sword), and "Ancient Edge Bastard Sword Cutting Demo (Tameshigiri)" for instance.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
The James Williams clips are great and I think demonstrate both good skill and a fine weapon. I particularly like his use of the back hand with the double edge. The movements however are both slower and less complex than the movements on bamboo in my video which only reinforces my position.
Skidder007 3 years ago
You do realize that he was doing it /casually/, right? We don't really stress the ability to mindlessly jump around and chop bamboo into pieces because, frankly, that doesn't help us fight. You're committing the logical fallacy that if someone isn't showing something, they can't do it. We simply see no need to do more than what they show. The exhibition here is simply for the spectator's enjoyment. All the spins, and fancy cuts are actually quite useless in combat.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Logical fallacy? I am requesting you back your words with actions. If you can't or won't there is no fallacy. While your inability to back your words with proof does not disprove your argument it doesn't prove it either. I am merely offering you the chance to provide evidence. If you can't that is okay, but don't expect me to change my opinion without the evidence.
Skidder007 3 years ago
Evidence? What would you like?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Do the moves in the video at same speed on bamboo with a longsword and I will change my opinion and declare you correct. (Gauntlet tossed on ground):)
Skidder007 3 years ago
Sorry, that would have more to do with my own skill than the quality of the sword. That's not objective at all. Where did I say that /I/ was better than the people in the video, in the first place?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Fair enough. Here is what I can tell you. I can do/have done the stuff in the video with a Katana and I have not been able to do the same with a longsword...you say it can be done. taking you at your word, I would love to see it as I find it quite difficult.
Skidder007 3 years ago
Once again, your ability to do that with a Longsword depends greatly upon its manufacture. You should find out where you got it. How much did it cost, for instance? And what Oakeshott type is it? Also, I'm curious as to what you're thinking of when you're talking about "Longsword". What is a Longsword, from your knowledge?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
I also can't stress the next point enough. You're not trained in how to use a European sword, so naturally your ability to use a European sword is going to be inferior to that of your skill to use a Katana. Katana are curved, and stiff, for instance. Longswords (at least those with a focus upon cutting) are straight edged and flexible. This is another important point. The Longsword you have experience with, was it designed for Cutting, or for Thrusting?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Oh crap, another problem which totally slipped my mind. I automatically assumed you had katana which were based on the same designs as those for actual combat. Are the katana you use of the type I just mentioned, or are they "competition cutters"? There is a trend in katana manufacture today of making swords that are specifically designed to cutting tatami quickly, precisely, and elaborately, but they are /not/ suited to actual combat at all. They're very structurally weak, I believe.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Also, the logical fallacy wasn't in any request for evidence. It was in your assumption the because you haven't seen a European sword do the fancy, flashy moves of the video, then that means it cannot. That's the logical fallacy.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
There's no evidence that the katana is a superior sword to the Langschwert. Both weigh the same, both have similar balances, and both operate in similar manners. You're confusing the flashy exhibitionism of Eastern martial arts with superior quality. This is not so.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
My apologies if my Winnebago comment offended you. I was only commenting on personal experience and perhaps the sword I was using was sub par. The katana and Jingum I use are of the highest quality and perhaps it is an unfair comparison. However...
Skidder007 3 years ago
However nothing. It's dishonest to compare a sub-par example of a weapon against a high quality example of another weapon. Quick question, how much did the example you used weigh?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Anyway, you're misunderstanding the nature of that video. It's not about the katana itself, so much as people's perceptions of the katana, and those who use tatami and bamboo as examples of the Katana's superiority over Western swords. A good example is that if you look around, you'll find people who suggest that a Western sword would shatter upon impact with Tatami and bamboo. The video refers to the fact that the katana cutting bamboo is not a unique characteristic of the katana /itself/.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
The only swords I have seen shatter on wood or Bamboo have been of Stainless Steel construction and that would apply to all varieties.
Skidder007 3 years ago
For Bamboo cutting I used a 3 pound 38 inch English made High Carbon Steel longsword with a 10 inch handle. I have a number of Katanas and Jinggums all of very high quality steel some of which weigh more than the Longsword but are "lighter" when swinging them around.
Skidder007 3 years ago
And whom was it made by? If the sword was 38 inches 3 pounds is kind of on the heavy end.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
I don't know
Skidder007 3 years ago
Then you should check that out, as well as the videos I suggested. :>
Caliburnis 3 years ago
I took a look at the videos and they were great but still not as impressive as I have done/seen done with a Jinggum. what kind of Katana have you used in your comparisons?
Skidder007 3 years ago
The point wasn't that those videos would trump your video. It's that a european sword can match the performance of a japanese (Or korean one). As well, here's the difference between you and I. I'm not taking just my own experience with eastern weapons into account. I'm taking the experiences of dozens of other martial artists that I know of; many of whom are Eastern, into account. I have to ask. In the Video you're responding to, you do realize that the sword was intentionally blunted, right?
Caliburnis 3 years ago
Cutting bamboo or tatami is no big deal. It has more to do with a person's individual skill at cutting those two things than the qualities of the weapon. John Clements cutting the bamboo with a blunt sword proves this. I've seen people make mincemeat out of tatami using a /seax/.
Caliburnis 3 years ago
If the blunt sword guy can do the same with his sword as the Gumdo Master in the video then I think the point he makes in his video is valid. However, I would argue a single cut on bamboo is fairly easy and does not impress. On the other hand, multiple cuts done in sequence perfectly while moving does... I am not convinced a big heavy blunt sword could be used to do what is in my video response. Am I crazy?
Skidder007 4 years ago
couldnt have put it better myself. well said.
csthundercat 3 years ago
Why is this a video response to the blunt sword cutting bamboo? There's no relevance.
Caliburnis 4 years ago
this is a reply to the white idiot who posted the self glorifying narcissistic video of himself making a mockery of bamboo cutting because it demonstrates how wrong and ridiculous his idiosyncratic views are on sword art.
headshottev 4 years ago
I don't see how. First of all, he never posted the video here himself. Someone went onto another site and /then/ posted it. Second, the video only makes a mockery of those who claim that cutting bamboo or tatami is some sort of mark of honor for a weapon. Anything else is placed there solely by people who go into these things assuming that the person is "racist" or an "ideologue".
Also, what does his skin tone have to do with this discussion, anyway?
Caliburnis 4 years ago
wow thats freaking crazy
coriant 4 years ago