But if you have a bump key with the proper sidebar groove, don't you essentially have the proper key to begin with? I mean, how would you know what the sidebar groove should be without obtaining the key? And if you have the key, why do you need to bump the lock?
@jsmonk Well, on all Primus keys there is (1) the primary bitting along the blade and (2) the sidebar code cut into the flat surface. On lower levels of Primus the sidebar is the same nation-wide, on mid levels the sidebar can be region-specific. And even on a restricted system, if you work in -say- the same building... your key will almost always have the sidebar for that building's system. So obtaining the sidebar code isn't all that difficult.
@DeviantOllam Thanks for clarifying that. I thought the sidebar would be different for each lock; I didn't know it served a generic purpose like that.
@jsmonk Well, the higher level Primus locks are indeed unique. Locksmiths who want to vend at that level have to buy-in with Schlage for a specific quantity and volume of business, etc... so many smaller shops have to deal only in the lower levels.
@jsmonk So, yes, the sidebar code is often thought of as the "more difficult" portion of the Primus to manipulate, duplicate, etc. Thus having that code (or blanks cut to the proper code) can allow for lots of attacks... bumping, picking, impressioning, master key decoding.
Bumping is just the fastest and the one involving the least use of skill and finesse when you're standing right there at the door.
So if I get this right... the process is to have a key with the proper side bar coding, and then just file that down into a bump key and it will work with minimal tension? Do you still pull the key out just one notch and then bump it back in? Also, is the tension applied counter or clockwise?
@zhixea yes, that is the idea. we do use the "pull" method for the attack. you can tension and turn the lock in either direction, and that matters since it depends on whether you're trying to open a left-handed or right-handed door. it depends which way you need to turn.
@DeviantOllam I like understanding how the lock works on the inside. Does the addition of this second set of side pins affect the tension that we have to apply? In other words, are these sidebar pins the reason why you can't just put the key in the lock, pull it back a knotch, apply some torque, and bump it?
@Mw2M4oA3 wow. somehow you totally failed to understand what we were saying, or the video was unclear. no, you can't "buy" one of these keys because you need a key cut to the proper sidebar code, which varies in nearly all situations. any, in any case, TOOOL does not sell bump keys to the public... nor do we really think it's great for others to do the same. it's rather like posting pre-compiled exploit binaries to BugTraq as opposed to proof of concept code. ;-)
@WinterHaven heh, well... there are plenty of institutions who have electric fencing as part of their security posture and general perimeter demarcation. Not with voltage that could be fatal, heh. But in truth, an electrified lock would rarely shock any burglar, because by and large burglars don't pick locks. You only see lockpicking in matters of corporate espionage or targeted attacks against an institution, not individuals or residences.
There are a couple of things that I would like to point out here. First, there is no way for us to tell that the cylinders that you bumped have the fingerpins and sidebar installed in the core. Second, the key that you showed at the end did not reveal the lower cut side of the key. Third, and this is the most important, Its very hard to get a hold of a key that has the proper lower cuts for most systems. IR has ID checks in place to authorize who gets blanks. I still think Primus is good stuff.
@jedimastereric "there is no way for us to tell that the cylinders that you bumped have the fingerpins and sidebar installed in the core" yeah, except the part at the 7 minute mark where you see us field strip the lock and clearly we are removing the sidebar and finger pins.
"Its very hard to get a hold of a key that has the proper lower cuts for most systems" that is only the case with highest levels of Schlage Primus. the Level One Primus is the same sidebar nation-wide. others are regional.
@jedimastereric "I still think Primus is good stuff." ... as do i. in fact, the Schlage Primus system is what we almost always recommend to friends and clients in North America due to its extensible keying, high pick-resistance, and backwards-compatibility with hardware store SC-1 locks.
as long as someone adds some anti-bump driver pins to a Schlage Primus, i think it's a top-notch lock for residential and commercial applications. naturally, having a more restricted sidebar matters, too.
@sonick808 ... with the addition of one or two anti-bump pins from Ilco, your Primus locks will be highly resistant to both picking and bumping. it will only cost you about $5.
@DeviantOllam good point. I will do just that. I haven't picked or taken apart locks for awhile, time to get back into it. I don't want to change the bitting so hopefully i can find pins that are an exact length match. Just put calipers on the pins and order the proper lengths then ? last i knew, mushroom pins were the most frustrating, would those be a good choice still ?
@sonick808 ... no need for calipers. you don't have to measure anything, because you're not replacing key pins. the Ilco anti-bump system is a replacement for a couple /driver/ pins.
mushroom pins are a form of anti-PICK driver pin, but this is a type of anti-BUMP driver pin. it is something separate. a locksmith would very likely be able to re-pin your Primus with a couple anti-bump drivers in /very/ short order.
@sonick808 You're fine. Someone would have to have the same side milling on their bump key blank. In theory, they would have to get it through the same locksmith that you got your locks through due to the patent. And even if they did, the spring loaded side bar would make bumping this lock open very difficult. I suppose not impossible, but not worth trying either. As a locksmith in Oregon I'll tell you Primus is the way to go.
@portlandog thank you for the professional input, I very much appreciate it :)
I actually ended up replacing everything with Abloy Protec deadbolts and knob cylinders about 4 months ago, and sold the primus' to my buddy who had ancient quikset deadbolts. With the strikemaster II and the abloy deadbolts, i should hope that would annoy a thief enough to choose another target.
wow... all the bad jokes about YouTube comments being the internet's deepest depths of banal, inaccurate commentary really are true, aren't they?
as we explain in the video (and as you can clearly see on the screen as we disassemble the bumped locks) the sidebars are all there and fully-functional. all the side pins are in, and they work.
but thanks for dropping your unhelpful and borderline illiterate comment in here. :-)
@bigbmcgee1 - this is the simple Level 1 Primus, which has the same sidebar nationally. one does need a bump key with the right sidebar code, so unless it is known like this (as in, someone knows that a specific lock is using a national or territory-specific code) then it would have to be discovered another way (such as having a key to an alternate door in a master keyed system)
First great video. Always nice to see locksport going strong. I also want to add that the individual that does not come on video sounds JUST like me. I actually thought it was one of our videos at first. Seriously. Listen to one of our videos.
Right! The person that starts talking as soon as the video starts. He also says: "that's a little scary". I bet I could actually convince people that's me.
thanks, man! it's a shame that some of the folk who have posted comments here seem to not understand what makes for good security... but you surely have your head wired together. Terrific work on your own Schlage Primus video, btw! =)
There is nothing in the Primus that makes it low security. I try to teach lock picking to everyone I know who cares to learn. I have 0 students. Picking, and even bumping are skilled tasks that require advanced knowledge of specific locking mechanisms. No video can relate this information as specifically as it needs to be exploided.
Folks that do this crap are just plain creepy. I met a crazy stalker bi%^h that loves to come by when no ones home & PICK her way in. After replacing 4 locks & getting a primus we notices SCRATCHES all over the face of the Primus. But no more coming home to a ransacked house & unlocked door. Since we cant catch the c*^t we at least want our place secure. People do sleep in their houses and want to feel safe. It just sucks that schlage made this & now someone finds a way to open it!!!
I think you mean to say that folks who break into houses are just plain creepy. People who research security flaws are the SOLUTION to these issues. By publicizing not only the problem but also a cheap and easy solution TOOOL is contributing to better security for all parties.
@DeviantOllam if you find out how to open ANY LOCK without the original key, i dont care who you are or what your intensions are, its not smart to make the info available to EVERYONE on the internet! and chances are theres alot more criminals searching how to open difficult locks then people worrying about there safety.
@SkruffiDawg - wow, thank you for demonstrating to everyone here that you understand NOTHING about the principles of security. public disclosure helps more than it hurts because there are more GOOD people in the world than BAD people... far, far more. it is for this same reason that carrying concealed weapons makes society safer... it means there are more weapons in the hands of good people.
you claim the majority of people viewing these threads are criminals... which people are they? you? =)
@DeviantOllam why would people that bought what they think is the best lock, search for a way to pick it? there is no reason. now.. why would other people, like criminals search for a way to pick a hard lock? the answer to that is in the question. now, you are showing and explaining to them how to pick this "impossible" lock.
all im saying is why couldnt you just have gone to the creators of this lock and try to help them improve it, without showing everyone on the internet how to pick it?
i really have no idea how to properly address someone as unfamiliar with security as you seem to be.
the US army has tanks, right? do you know that they routinely shoot artillery rounds at their tanks and that these tests are seen often on science and educational programs? they do this because TESTING one's own security results invariably in BETTER security.
EVERYONE whom i know with "high security" locks takes time evaluating them... how else would you know they're good?
and, to address your specific question about speaking to the lock's creators... Ingersoll-Rand has shown themselves REPEATEDLY to be un-receptive to communications from the security research community.
still, if you'd bothered to watch the whole video, you'd see that TOOOL actually DEMONSTRATES how to fix and improve the lock to mitigate this attack. for almost no money and with little time spent, you can take a Primus and make it bump-proof.
If you have a problem with a mentally unbalanced person repeatedly entering your home illegally, you buy a shotgun and involve the police. The fact that you couldn't figure out how to do that in spite of FOUR assaults on your privacy and the sanctity of your home (plus your lack of understanding concerning how security research works) leads to me to think that YOU may be the one with some mental difficulties.
In any case, best of luck staying secure from now on. Your new Primus should help.
Dude all the police do is ask if you saw anyone do it & of course you never see sneaky folks that do this kind of $hit. Most of the picking/bumping sessions occur when *NONE* of my neighbors are awake or theyre gone during the day. Its as if the person has lots of time to site around and *wait* until the perfect time. Plus the cops as well as the insurance agencys LOVE to blame the *victim* for simply leaving their door unlocked.
Also I dont think I want a deadly weapon in my house when the said lickpicker/bumper will go through my things; find it, then possibly *use* it on me should I come home & startle them. And since they *picked* their way in /w no forced entry the cops rule it as a suicide. We have come home to our mattress hanging off as if someone was *looking* to see if we had a weapon stored there.
Also why is it all the lockpickers love to think theyre really doing something to make the world safer? And why is it they love to think theyre nothing wrong with them & that every ELSE is the one with the problem? At least thats what i get from all the "disclaimers" that this is legal & that you can find the info anywhere. If not for the internet it would be 80 more years before this garbage SLOWLY leaked out!
why is this so surprising? I've had this idea for awhile knowing that it was possible, just need to test it. The pins are regular pins and easy to bump/pick with the correct sidebar especially if master keyed
the surprising thing for most folk as far as the Primus is concerned is the manner in which the finger pins interact with the sidebar. During normal operation they both lift AND turn... unlike the ones in the twin series by Assa, which just lift.
Being able to complete a bump with the sidebar pins moving in all directions was a pleasant surprise for most of us. Were you surprised the first time you successfully bumped a Primus?
both of these locks have also been successfully bumped. There are numerous levels of AssaTwin locks (which operate with similar finger pins in their sidebar) and these have been, over time, bumped successfully by our Dutch friends.
Medeco locks are all but totally shot now, thanks to the manufacturer's total lack of any real innovation in the past couple decades (beyond minor cosmetic changes, designed to extend copyright and patent rather than increase security). Google Marc Tobias for more.
But if you have a bump key with the proper sidebar groove, don't you essentially have the proper key to begin with? I mean, how would you know what the sidebar groove should be without obtaining the key? And if you have the key, why do you need to bump the lock?
jsmonk 2 months ago
@jsmonk Well, on all Primus keys there is (1) the primary bitting along the blade and (2) the sidebar code cut into the flat surface. On lower levels of Primus the sidebar is the same nation-wide, on mid levels the sidebar can be region-specific. And even on a restricted system, if you work in -say- the same building... your key will almost always have the sidebar for that building's system. So obtaining the sidebar code isn't all that difficult.
Bumping then attacks the primary pins.
DeviantOllam 1 month ago
@DeviantOllam Thanks for clarifying that. I thought the sidebar would be different for each lock; I didn't know it served a generic purpose like that.
jsmonk 1 month ago
@jsmonk Well, the higher level Primus locks are indeed unique. Locksmiths who want to vend at that level have to buy-in with Schlage for a specific quantity and volume of business, etc... so many smaller shops have to deal only in the lower levels.
DeviantOllam 1 month ago
@jsmonk So, yes, the sidebar code is often thought of as the "more difficult" portion of the Primus to manipulate, duplicate, etc. Thus having that code (or blanks cut to the proper code) can allow for lots of attacks... bumping, picking, impressioning, master key decoding.
Bumping is just the fastest and the one involving the least use of skill and finesse when you're standing right there at the door.
DeviantOllam 1 month ago
So if I get this right... the process is to have a key with the proper side bar coding, and then just file that down into a bump key and it will work with minimal tension? Do you still pull the key out just one notch and then bump it back in? Also, is the tension applied counter or clockwise?
zhixea 3 months ago
@zhixea yes, that is the idea. we do use the "pull" method for the attack. you can tension and turn the lock in either direction, and that matters since it depends on whether you're trying to open a left-handed or right-handed door. it depends which way you need to turn.
DeviantOllam 3 months ago
@DeviantOllam I like understanding how the lock works on the inside. Does the addition of this second set of side pins affect the tension that we have to apply? In other words, are these sidebar pins the reason why you can't just put the key in the lock, pull it back a knotch, apply some torque, and bump it?
zhixea 3 months ago
can i buy one of these bump keys from you? seriously.
Mw2M4oA3 8 months ago
@Mw2M4oA3 wow. somehow you totally failed to understand what we were saying, or the video was unclear. no, you can't "buy" one of these keys because you need a key cut to the proper sidebar code, which varies in nearly all situations. any, in any case, TOOOL does not sell bump keys to the public... nor do we really think it's great for others to do the same. it's rather like posting pre-compiled exploit binaries to BugTraq as opposed to proof of concept code. ;-)
DeviantOllam 8 months ago
How sad we can't install electrical power to these locks to shock burglars to death.
WinterHaven 9 months ago
@WinterHaven heh, well... there are plenty of institutions who have electric fencing as part of their security posture and general perimeter demarcation. Not with voltage that could be fatal, heh. But in truth, an electrified lock would rarely shock any burglar, because by and large burglars don't pick locks. You only see lockpicking in matters of corporate espionage or targeted attacks against an institution, not individuals or residences.
DeviantOllam 9 months ago
There are a couple of things that I would like to point out here. First, there is no way for us to tell that the cylinders that you bumped have the fingerpins and sidebar installed in the core. Second, the key that you showed at the end did not reveal the lower cut side of the key. Third, and this is the most important, Its very hard to get a hold of a key that has the proper lower cuts for most systems. IR has ID checks in place to authorize who gets blanks. I still think Primus is good stuff.
jedimastereric 11 months ago
@jedimastereric "there is no way for us to tell that the cylinders that you bumped have the fingerpins and sidebar installed in the core" yeah, except the part at the 7 minute mark where you see us field strip the lock and clearly we are removing the sidebar and finger pins.
"Its very hard to get a hold of a key that has the proper lower cuts for most systems" that is only the case with highest levels of Schlage Primus. the Level One Primus is the same sidebar nation-wide. others are regional.
DeviantOllam 11 months ago
@jedimastereric "I still think Primus is good stuff." ... as do i. in fact, the Schlage Primus system is what we almost always recommend to friends and clients in North America due to its extensible keying, high pick-resistance, and backwards-compatibility with hardware store SC-1 locks.
as long as someone adds some anti-bump driver pins to a Schlage Primus, i think it's a top-notch lock for residential and commercial applications. naturally, having a more restricted sidebar matters, too.
DeviantOllam 11 months ago
son of a BITCH, i just put primus locks on my doors. _*#_)(#$)(@#
sonick808 1 year ago
@sonick808 ... with the addition of one or two anti-bump pins from Ilco, your Primus locks will be highly resistant to both picking and bumping. it will only cost you about $5.
DeviantOllam 1 year ago
@DeviantOllam good point. I will do just that. I haven't picked or taken apart locks for awhile, time to get back into it. I don't want to change the bitting so hopefully i can find pins that are an exact length match. Just put calipers on the pins and order the proper lengths then ? last i knew, mushroom pins were the most frustrating, would those be a good choice still ?
sonick808 1 year ago
@sonick808 ... no need for calipers. you don't have to measure anything, because you're not replacing key pins. the Ilco anti-bump system is a replacement for a couple /driver/ pins.
mushroom pins are a form of anti-PICK driver pin, but this is a type of anti-BUMP driver pin. it is something separate. a locksmith would very likely be able to re-pin your Primus with a couple anti-bump drivers in /very/ short order.
DeviantOllam 1 year ago
@sonick808 You're fine. Someone would have to have the same side milling on their bump key blank. In theory, they would have to get it through the same locksmith that you got your locks through due to the patent. And even if they did, the spring loaded side bar would make bumping this lock open very difficult. I suppose not impossible, but not worth trying either. As a locksmith in Oregon I'll tell you Primus is the way to go.
portlandog 1 year ago
@portlandog thank you for the professional input, I very much appreciate it :)
I actually ended up replacing everything with Abloy Protec deadbolts and knob cylinders about 4 months ago, and sold the primus' to my buddy who had ancient quikset deadbolts. With the strikemaster II and the abloy deadbolts, i should hope that would annoy a thief enough to choose another target.
sonick808 1 year ago
@sonick808 Locks stop the honest; if someone wants in enough to get a bump key, chances are they're cool with breaking your windows, too.
Fordi 11 months ago
@Fordi true. As for my windows, they're barred. Further than that is covered by Glock.
sonick808 11 months ago
Nice stuff......interesting for a newbie gives me some more ammo to throw at these locks 5*
bouncer965 1 year ago
I'm confused as to if they modified a Schlage Primus key with side bar into a bump key or just used a regular 5 or 6 pin Schlage bump key?
I always thought it may be possible to make a Schlage primus into a bump key.
rbolo29 2 years ago
prolly took out the side bar
BMXer053pc 2 years ago
wow... all the bad jokes about YouTube comments being the internet's deepest depths of banal, inaccurate commentary really are true, aren't they?
as we explain in the video (and as you can clearly see on the screen as we disassemble the bumped locks) the sidebars are all there and fully-functional. all the side pins are in, and they work.
but thanks for dropping your unhelpful and borderline illiterate comment in here. :-)
DeviantOllam 2 years ago
@DeviantOllam Was the primus key keyed to your sidebar milling or someone elses?
bigbmcgee1 1 year ago
@bigbmcgee1 - this is the simple Level 1 Primus, which has the same sidebar nationally. one does need a bump key with the right sidebar code, so unless it is known like this (as in, someone knows that a specific lock is using a national or territory-specific code) then it would have to be discovered another way (such as having a key to an alternate door in a master keyed system)
DeviantOllam 1 year ago
So I didn't catch what the keying on the sidebar was, any chance you know? Was it the standard?
lilsully4 2 years ago
First great video. Always nice to see locksport going strong. I also want to add that the individual that does not come on video sounds JUST like me. I actually thought it was one of our videos at first. Seriously. Listen to one of our videos.
LockBumping 2 years ago
heh... there are about four people whom you can hear in this video, none of whom ever actually appear on the video. which person do you mean? ;-)
DeviantOllam 2 years ago
oh... i think i know who you mean. the individual who speaks but doesn't participate or show his hands on camera. Yes, there is a similarity. =)
DeviantOllam 2 years ago
Right! The person that starts talking as soon as the video starts. He also says: "that's a little scary". I bet I could actually convince people that's me.
LockBumping 2 years ago
Almost 3000 views, and 7 ratings?.... 5*s great video.
ToolyMcgee 2 years ago
thanks, man! it's a shame that some of the folk who have posted comments here seem to not understand what makes for good security... but you surely have your head wired together. Terrific work on your own Schlage Primus video, btw! =)
DeviantOllam 2 years ago
There is nothing in the Primus that makes it low security. I try to teach lock picking to everyone I know who cares to learn. I have 0 students. Picking, and even bumping are skilled tasks that require advanced knowledge of specific locking mechanisms. No video can relate this information as specifically as it needs to be exploided.
ToolyMcgee 2 years ago
wow, good job guys! =)
disclaimer226 2 years ago
Im not creepy. Nor do I intend to break into your house :/
Waxxumus 2 years ago
Folks that do this crap are just plain creepy. I met a crazy stalker bi%^h that loves to come by when no ones home & PICK her way in. After replacing 4 locks & getting a primus we notices SCRATCHES all over the face of the Primus. But no more coming home to a ransacked house & unlocked door. Since we cant catch the c*^t we at least want our place secure. People do sleep in their houses and want to feel safe. It just sucks that schlage made this & now someone finds a way to open it!!!
wcu19460 2 years ago
I think you mean to say that folks who break into houses are just plain creepy. People who research security flaws are the SOLUTION to these issues. By publicizing not only the problem but also a cheap and easy solution TOOOL is contributing to better security for all parties.
DeviantOllam 2 years ago
@DeviantOllam if you find out how to open ANY LOCK without the original key, i dont care who you are or what your intensions are, its not smart to make the info available to EVERYONE on the internet! and chances are theres alot more criminals searching how to open difficult locks then people worrying about there safety.
SkruffiDawg 2 years ago
@SkruffiDawg - wow, thank you for demonstrating to everyone here that you understand NOTHING about the principles of security. public disclosure helps more than it hurts because there are more GOOD people in the world than BAD people... far, far more. it is for this same reason that carrying concealed weapons makes society safer... it means there are more weapons in the hands of good people.
you claim the majority of people viewing these threads are criminals... which people are they? you? =)
DeviantOllam 2 years ago
@DeviantOllam why would people that bought what they think is the best lock, search for a way to pick it? there is no reason. now.. why would other people, like criminals search for a way to pick a hard lock? the answer to that is in the question. now, you are showing and explaining to them how to pick this "impossible" lock.
all im saying is why couldnt you just have gone to the creators of this lock and try to help them improve it, without showing everyone on the internet how to pick it?
SkruffiDawg 2 years ago
wow. just... wow.
i really have no idea how to properly address someone as unfamiliar with security as you seem to be.
the US army has tanks, right? do you know that they routinely shoot artillery rounds at their tanks and that these tests are seen often on science and educational programs? they do this because TESTING one's own security results invariably in BETTER security.
EVERYONE whom i know with "high security" locks takes time evaluating them... how else would you know they're good?
DeviantOllam 2 years ago
and, to address your specific question about speaking to the lock's creators... Ingersoll-Rand has shown themselves REPEATEDLY to be un-receptive to communications from the security research community.
still, if you'd bothered to watch the whole video, you'd see that TOOOL actually DEMONSTRATES how to fix and improve the lock to mitigate this attack. for almost no money and with little time spent, you can take a Primus and make it bump-proof.
the public wouldn't know that without research.
DeviantOllam 2 years ago
If you have a problem with a mentally unbalanced person repeatedly entering your home illegally, you buy a shotgun and involve the police. The fact that you couldn't figure out how to do that in spite of FOUR assaults on your privacy and the sanctity of your home (plus your lack of understanding concerning how security research works) leads to me to think that YOU may be the one with some mental difficulties.
In any case, best of luck staying secure from now on. Your new Primus should help.
DeviantOllam 2 years ago
Dude all the police do is ask if you saw anyone do it & of course you never see sneaky folks that do this kind of $hit. Most of the picking/bumping sessions occur when *NONE* of my neighbors are awake or theyre gone during the day. Its as if the person has lots of time to site around and *wait* until the perfect time. Plus the cops as well as the insurance agencys LOVE to blame the *victim* for simply leaving their door unlocked.
wcu19460 2 years ago
Also I dont think I want a deadly weapon in my house when the said lickpicker/bumper will go through my things; find it, then possibly *use* it on me should I come home & startle them. And since they *picked* their way in /w no forced entry the cops rule it as a suicide. We have come home to our mattress hanging off as if someone was *looking* to see if we had a weapon stored there.
wcu19460 2 years ago
Also why is it all the lockpickers love to think theyre really doing something to make the world safer? And why is it they love to think theyre nothing wrong with them & that every ELSE is the one with the problem? At least thats what i get from all the "disclaimers" that this is legal & that you can find the info anywhere. If not for the internet it would be 80 more years before this garbage SLOWLY leaked out!
wcu19460 2 years ago
why is this so surprising? I've had this idea for awhile knowing that it was possible, just need to test it. The pins are regular pins and easy to bump/pick with the correct sidebar especially if master keyed
gg4u1234 2 years ago
the surprising thing for most folk as far as the Primus is concerned is the manner in which the finger pins interact with the sidebar. During normal operation they both lift AND turn... unlike the ones in the twin series by Assa, which just lift.
Being able to complete a bump with the sidebar pins moving in all directions was a pleasant surprise for most of us. Were you surprised the first time you successfully bumped a Primus?
DeviantOllam 2 years ago
How would Medeco and Assa compare?
JGCooney 2 years ago
both of these locks have also been successfully bumped. There are numerous levels of AssaTwin locks (which operate with similar finger pins in their sidebar) and these have been, over time, bumped successfully by our Dutch friends.
Medeco locks are all but totally shot now, thanks to the manufacturer's total lack of any real innovation in the past couple decades (beyond minor cosmetic changes, designed to extend copyright and patent rather than increase security). Google Marc Tobias for more.
DeviantOllam 2 years ago
I think thats a Panavise. I have one and it's prefect for holding a variety of locks.
Eyes5150 2 years ago
fantastic!
****** thank you.
very well done.
wizwazzle 2 years ago
I like that table vise, what brand is it and where can I get one?
ddclancy 2 years ago