Flight archery training with Turkish overdraw ''siper''

[jan1035]

It may be a stupid question, but bows are made for a certain draw-lenght. So in this way don't you over draw the bow?

[ThorgalsWalhalla]

@jan1035 ithink the turkis bow is made to shoot like this, but i think you have less lbs, and they are quik too shoot (like from a horse)

[itzek88]

die pfeile sind zu kurz

[hackamore]

I've just been reading up on this. Turkish composite bows went up to 972 yards, with many instances of 750 yards and up -- and they used sipers way back then. So I think the proof is in the pudding -- lighter faster-moving arrows go farther.

[gokmenpasha]

@hackamore Hi, in this video I shot about 230m, but the poundage is very low and of course it is not a hornbow. Just to repeat, according to Adam Karpowicz's research the record shot of Tozkoparan Iskender (845meter) was done with a 140-150lbs bow, with a 10-12gram arrow with a speed nearing 400fps. Btw, the arrows are very thin and aerodynamic, I had originals in my hands they are a piece of art.

[hackamore]

@gokmenpasha Thanks for the info. You can tell just how light those arrows are by comparing to the English war bow arrows, which weight 60-65 grams.

[gokmenpasha]

@hackamore a quarter pounder English war arrow weighs even more. But dont forget, flight archery was done only as a sport by the Turks. Their war arrows weigh about 28-35 gram.

[hackamore]

I can't believe I am the first to ask this! How far were the arrows going?

[flamedrag18]

wouldn't it be easier to just use longer arrow shafts?

[volkkeslate]

@flamedrag18 hence the 'overdraw' part

[flamedrag18]

@volkkeslate but what's the point? just use a longer arrow and shoot it like a normal bow instead of needing this hand equipped arrow rest, I hate how some people like to over complicate something when a easier solution is staring them in the face.

[AssyrianArcher]

@flamedrag18 I've had thoughts about it too, but shorter arrows are lighter arrows... and lighter arrows will have a higher exit speed from the bow, so it will reach higher distances. That's the whole point of using an overdraw siper.

[flamedrag18]

@AssyrianArcher the higher exit speed is better, but the lack of mass for the arrow will make it easier for wind and air resistance to slow it down. mass also has a huge part in distance, the more mmass the arrow has, the farther the bow's energy will carry since the mass is pushing it through the wind and air. think of it like throwing a rock and a feather, which one will go farther?

[AssyrianArcher]

@flamedrag18 True, and certainly mass has to be considered in the arrow flight. It's just the lower weight I can think of to justify the use of an overdraw siper. But certainly a shorter arrow should have advantages a longer arrow has not. Maybe gokmenpasha can give a reason for using a overdraw siper?

[volkkeslate]

@flamedrag18 the arrows he's firing are his normal arrows for regular target shooting, the overdrawing is part of the tradition and sport to flight archery competitions with Turkish bows, larger arrows have larger drag and tend to be thrown off course easier than some of the smaller arrows, though an extra inch or two of length would be negligible

[hackamore]

@flamedrag18 As I understand it, the shorter arrows are lighter and therefore go farther.

[flamedrag18]

@hackamore yes a shorter arrow is lighter, but it's that lack of weight that can hurt it's performance, when contending against wind and air resistance, you want aa heavier arrow to push through these obstacles. this is like trying to throw a feather and a rock, the feather may be lighter, but the air resistance and wind can knock it around, reducing efficiency and effective reducing the range of the shot.

[Gallowmere7294]

That first shot sounded beautiful.

[danpetru]

@Gallowmere7294 from my experience

i don't think yew is as suitable ... for the core you need a very firm rigid wood.. you might consider even heat tempering the core for more strength. ash bamboo maple i think would work well

[kmetvhribih]

i am planning on making a turkish-style composite bow... i have already read a ton about making, just asking to be sure... the animal horn is used on the belly (the side towards the archer) and sinew on the back? plus another question... i have read that maple was the wood of choice, but before getting that piece in info i was plannin on making the core from yew (i already have a few nice branches just waiting to be cut ;).

[ergunayral91]

Türk- Osmanlı Yayı nereden bulabilirim, yardımcı olursanız sevinirim mesajlardan özelde yazabilirsiniz :)

[intezam]

We had similar bow in indopakistan called it "kamaan" - very strong bow from horn and glue. Since about 80 years people stopped using this. I love your hand guard and release technique. This is the good way of sports!!!!

[gokmenpasha]

@intezam Very interesting, do you have pictures of it? Kamaan means bow in Persian. I didnt even release very clean in this video however it makes it somewhat clear how the Ottomans did flight shooting (shooting for distance) cheers

[1makermovie]

lol i made a mistake of typing

iwanted to type sniper instead of siper

[gokmenpasha]

@SergejKorolev haha, no you did not have to shoot over the Bosporus. You had to shoot 594m in the archery school. In Istanbul it was the "Okmeydani". There were strict rules how to do that and you had to have 2 witnesses. If you succeeded there were rituals and a feast with food at the club house.

This bow you see in the video was just 45lbs as far as I remember but I use bows up to 100-110 lbs.

[yohumlan]

@gokmenpasha bu Ibs dediğiniz şey artınca menzil artıyor mu ?

[gokmenpasha]

@yohumlan lbs ağırlık birimi, pound demek. Bu yayın çekiş gücünü belirtir. Bugünlerde 40-60 lbs arası kullanılıyor, Osmanlı 100 lbs ve üstü kullanıyordu. Ve evet, daha güçlü bir yay ile daha uzağa atarsın.

[gokmenpasha]

@SergejKorolev I shot distances of e.g. 330m. But it is still not enough. We are trying to understand how the Ottomans achieved distances of 845m...

With my distance they would not have accepted me as a student even. 594m is needed for that.

[Soviless99]

@SergejKorolev nice i never knew that :)

[sompret]

Would making a quarter-tube "fence" on one side of the siper solve the danger of having the arrow slip and shoot the grip? The koreans used something similar for their pyunjun arrows, though the arrows are inserted into a long half-tube.

[gokmenpasha]

@sompret maybe, but it would slow down the arrow as well. there should only be contact with the siper at one point. the groove of the siper is not straight, it is slightly higher in the middle and lower towards the edges. And besides the old Turks shot this way, they could have had the same idea but didnt change the siper.

[metaldo0d]

what is the max distance you managed to shoot with it? :)

[Soviless99]

am i to understand that the siper is only used in turkish flight archery due to it allowing the overdraw of an arrow of less mass which allows for greater flight distance?

[gokmenpasha]

Yes, the siper (overdraw) was only used in flight archery. After the conquest of Istanbul the first and maybe the best records on the "Okmeydani" were achieved without sipers, so the siper came later even.

Shorter arrow, less mass, but still long drawlength can make you shoot greater distances.

[TYKKETYKKE]

Hey Gökmen,

Question: I've heard that many composite archers hold the bow with only three fingers. I've tried, and it actually feels quite nice. But what is the "story" behind? Increased accuracy, better feel?

[gokmenpasha]

That's a good question, it is written in old texts, that's why we use that grip, it must have evolved from hundreds of years of practice.. One thing is for sure, even with high lbs you don't need 5 fingers to grasp the grip. The thumb is the arrow rest, so it has to be loose, otherwise you will hurt it. You know in Turkish archery you don't need any gloves or protection other than the thumbring. It might have to do with the dynamics as well cause with the release you push the bow forward..

[robinhoodfromhun]

I have never seen "siper" before. Did every Turkish archer use this in ancient times?

[gokmenpasha]

No, just the flight archers, it was just a sport practiced until the 20th cc. Flight archers use special bows, arrows, a different grip. The goal is to shoot the arrow as far as possible. War archery is much different.

[robinhoodfromhun]

Hi! Thanks for reply!

I heard that one of the Turkish archers shot through the Bosporus. If that's true it is really amazing.

[BorkafRigel]

Hey Gökmen! Nice vid. Is the Siper something modern or is it historical?

Your swedish friend, the Swurk;)

[gokmenpasha]

Hey Swurk!

Siper is an Ottoman invention, you can see historical ones e.g. in the Military Museum in Istanbul. It is like a backwards extension of the grip of the bow so you can shoot shorter=lighter arrows. Typical Ottoman flight arrows are 60-63cm and 11-13 gram..

Your Turkish friend, Gokmen..

[heavybows]

Very nice shooting.

[dutchwarbow]

hermes, he's not overdrawing the bow, but using a tool named 'overdraw' (also named siper) too shoot shorter arrows with a longer drawlength.

Nick

[HermesDo]

exaclty how long is the overdraw?? i dont think is more than 28@ with your bow am right? its very scary idea to make a mistake and draw more.... will the bow..smash?

[sihingalkan]

m. bu düşüncemi destekliyor.120 lb lere çıkmaya gerek yok. yay güçlendikçe ok da kalın ve ağır olur biyerden sonra aynı yere dönülür.. boşuna hamallık olur max 80 90 lb menzil atışları için yeterli.. güçlü yay bukadar hafif okları sapıttırır yaya göre de ok atarsan yine uzağa gitmez yani.. bilimsel olarak öyle midir bilmiyorum.. ben böyle düşünüyorum.. 70 lb ile 594 atılabilir diyorum....

[gokmenpasha]

Alkan abi senin dediğin fiber yaylar için çok doğru, 90'a bile geçmeye pek gerek yok çünkü yay kolları çok ağırlaşıyor ancak esas hornbow'lar için durum farklı, 140 libre menzil yayı 330 gram olabilir, yay kolları fazla ağır olmaz. Adam Karpowicz'in kitabında bu konu hakkında bilgiler var. Rekor atmak için 150-160 libre gayet mantıklı. Ama 594 metre için belki 70 libre hornbow yeter..

[sihingalkan]

kaç m gitti gökmen?

[gokmenpasha]

Sadece bırakışı ve atışı antrenman ettiğimden özel olarak ölçmedim ama tahminimce 230 m civarı gitti (kabaca adımladık). Arkada beyaz evi görüyor musun? yakınına düştü oklar.

[Trophybow1]

Interesting thing!!!! Thanks for sharing!