Near Death Experiences & Atheism part 5 of 5 A.J. Ayer - apologetics

[jesuskopp]

got to get some sound!

[trpgsinister]

why did they remove the audio???

[poor54]

For "Christ" sake, this guy is from the bible belt, what did you expect him to say? If he grew up in Japan without knowledge of christianity I Guarantee you he would not be talking about Jesus. If christianity was true, people from non christian countries (Japan, Saudi Arabia etc...) would be saying the same thing after their NDE's but they don't. I'm sure Storm had this experience, but when giving details it all boils down to him being a product of the environment.

[elroy2112]

Part 1> From the bible belt? Gassp! I forgot to check his genetic Origin before taking him seriously! by the way you forgot to mention where you are from, so we can figure out if you said anything true ? Blue Neck reasoning anyone ?

by the way you are wrong Howard was born in Blue State New York which explains his blunder of being an atheist, by your standard Eh dude ?

So if Mr Poor54 is from New york Or San Fransisco then I can dismiss your comments as a product of environment not reason right?

[elroy2112]

Part 2> Howard was only in Kentucky to be a materialistic missionary to unenlightened religious folk at the secular University he taught at.

Your ability to Listen is worse than your faulty reasoning abilities.

Actually it is very common for people in other cultures and countries who have never even heard of Jesus to say they saw a being of Light who told them his name was Jesus, even Naturalistic NDE researchers admit this so your "guarantee" needs a Refund.

[elroy2112]

Part 3> Environment does not make blind people see for the first time during their NDEs or Deaf people hear for first time during NDEs or Jesus to be seen in foreign NDEs guess again mrPoor54.

where you are born is irrelevant though it may explain your irrational rejection of this video and NDEs out of hand without first studying the subject.

Environment explains nothing about NDEs

other than their reality, Atheism offers no explanation of NDE, in fact atheism explains precisely nothing

[ainodmelvado]

You were kinda tuff on him but your points were very valid!

[carlindelco]

emmit says that "similar" experience have been performed and shows Howards experience is imaginary..lol that's like saying if I print monopoly money "real" money doesn't exist..lol wacko-athiest..and OBE's are not NDE's I've had OBE's and they are nothing like what Howard is talking about..

[Niemmy]

I stand corrected!

But I looked into the bible on this issue and it said that the dead are conscious of nothing after they die.Which sort of agrees with the atheist view on things surprisingly. So someone must be telling fibs?Or maybe it is just a brain chemical reaction I'm not sure. But I do find it interesting that all these experiences are similar but also have vastly different aspects in regards to content. So is there anyway of accounting for this disparage?

[elroy2112]

>> Ecclesiastes 9:5 must be passage you are referring to,the context of that passage is Under the sun on earth not in the realms of dead, so you ripped that passage completely out of context and ignored the passages that do speak about the after life, Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it one was, and THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD WHO GAVE IT. your attempt at looking into the bible was just as feeble as your look at this video as well as the NDE data Mr.NIEMMY!!

[elroy2112]

Prt 2>You also should have read LUKE 16 mentioned at end of this video which also makes clear bible teaches conscious torment, but somehow you missed that too, Thats way to many errors, Im starting to think youre an Atheist fibber Mr Niemmy !!

But then Fibs are just relative to the Godless.

[elroy2112]

Part3>>> the brain chemical explanations are destroyed in the comments below and in the research provided in links. Also the NDE is similar throughout time and geography , your ignorance is typical of atheist who only see what they want to see, you have atheist blinders on that only allow you to look at verses and data you think support you so im wasting my time by even giving evidence that undermines your deeply cherished atheist world view Mr. Niemmy.

[Niemmy]

How Come all these NDE's are Americans selling books? :P Doesn't people from other country's have NDE's

[elroy2112]

Only 2 peoples NDEs shown here, A.J. Ayer a

Brittish not American NDEr who had a Hellish NDE and said it was more real than anything he ever experienced and never sold a book and remained an atheist, and Howard storm an atheist who had a lucrative art career and a cushy University Art department chair, that he gave up to join the clergy and pastor a small church, in fact Ann Rice the famous Author had to fund Howards book because howard didn't have the money, NDEs are universal, do some reading

[MetaphysicsAddict]

ann rice.. the author of Interview with a Vampire? That is very cool. Can you please give me a ref on that? thanks

[grandconjunct]

Ann Rice wrote the forward to Storms book "my descent into death" (see link in sidebar) and she is the one who supported him to get it republished!

see Wikipedia article on Howard Storm.

[Lacktardo]

All I saw when leaving my body was an exact but odd replica of this world. Nothing like that religion nonsense angels, hell, heaven etc..

[grandconjunct]

Lacktardo>> "EXACT but ODD replica of this World" ??

grand >> Is reality Odd to You ??? if it was EXACT How do you know it was not really this world you were observing ?? Are You aware that NDEs start with STAGE 1 "THIS WORLD " Real world events like Hospitals floating above your body or ambulance (that can be tested for accuracy after returning) then proceed to STAGE 2, "OTHER WORLDLY" events , Heaven, Hell, God etc?? Yes religious folk are well aware that some people revive before stage 2, So?

[BaBaBaBlazin]

my life remained falling apart after i believed, i still smoke/drink/smoke/smoke/smoke.­.. but sometimes long-suffering and enduring praise is what it takes to be with jesus, whom suffered/suffers for us, and loves (just like the Father) us.

[Reido2828]

AJ Ayer um revised his opinion on the subject and still remained an atheism plus corrected his statement after his near death experience.

[elroy2112]

Rido > AJ Ayer um revised his opinion on the subject and still remained an atheism plus corrected his statement after his near death experience.

elroy> If you had actually watched the video you would see that Ayer said he would remain an atheist, no one ever disputed this other than someone in reidos imagination, The "correction" recorded at wikipedia just says he still disbelieves in after life but weakened his inflexibility, big deal reido I'm glad he remained an atheist proves Luke 16 correct

[HLecterPHD]

very interesting. gives me hope and scares the crap out of me at the same time. so many questions. im even more confused now. but in a good way. i think.

[grandconjunct]

This is a good place to ask questions, plus it allows myself and others to learn.

[StudentDan]

The top link on the side must not show Ayer's whole paper because he doesn't mention anything that happened when he was dead for four minutes.

[grandconjunct]

Studentdan your correct that link is now missing the NEXT PAGE button at the bottom of screen that was definately there when i originally posted link, I dont know if findarticles(dot)com is having technical difficulties or what, but I will search for another web page that has that article and post that link If they dont fix this bug within 24 hours, thanks again for the heads up on the broken link Dan.

[Xaulted]

That was extremely interesting. I knew it was going to be good because the soundtrack, Dream Theater - Pull Me Under. AWESOME!!

[grandconjunct]

It was fun talking to you (w1tch ) but I think we are starting to get repettative now

so i have to draw are fun conversation to a close (( Hmm I wonder if w1tch1tal1neman was actually the friendly atheist ? LOL ))

[w1tch1tal1neman]

Couple of points: Every honest atheist has a sound knowledge of Christian theology as they use it against Christianity to show what they perceive as contradictions, and dubious philosophies. So for Storm to claim he was a thinking staunch atheist, and then turn around and say he didn't know any theology until it was 'revealed' to him is frankly absurd.

[w1tch1tal1neman]

Therefore, presuming and vision took place; it is highly probable that everything in it was imagined from ideas contained in his conscience. Also, there is an almost irresistible opportunity for us to see events as supernatural or simply 'more' than they really were. This phenomenon as been seen time and time again: e.g. people misremembering a magic trick to be something more impossible when telling it to a friend later.

[w1tch1tal1neman]

Christians should not turn around and claim this mans' story as either pure or evidence for faith simply because he mentions Heaven, Hell, and Jesus, because many of his claims and doctrines are what could be considered heretical by the majority of denominations. In addition his images of tunnels and hell are exactly the same as what current popular culture describes as after death experience. Truly, if there were an afterlife it would not be so familiar.

[w1tch1tal1neman]

Finally, from his book: In church (months after the vision) he sees "angels dancing to the music of the choir" (A gift he had since his NDE) which left him feeling truly alive. Also, he claims in this radio discussion of being told about the cold war ending. I could go on with his list of absurdities. These two statements alone lead me to propose another explanation of this experience: he is a fraud and an outright liar, as plain as Uri Geller claiming he bends spoons with the power of his mind.

[grandconjunct]

you havent listed even one absurdity yet.

"Liar" ? so your saying the most rational explanation says a man who everyone around him confirms he was a genuine atheist, suddenly dies in a hospital , revives then quits his high paying job and art career becomes a minister in a small church loses his wife , did all this so he could become just one more voice of 15 mill. NDErs ? and and that's the "simplest" and most "rational" explanation, ? Was Ayer lying also ?

[grandconjunct]

For someone who claims to be very knowledgeable about Religion your are surprisingly ignorant of the distinction between Heretical and Heterodox , Storms mentioned Heterodox beliefs but not views considered Heretical by 99% of Christendom.

If NDEs are real they would all be different and not so familiar ? ill bet if they were all diffrent you would say you cant believe because there to diffrent. what a silly criteria.

[grandconjunct]

Storms didn't read the bible all the time therefore he wasn't a real atheist ? that's some Twisted logic only a militant youtube atheist could make. your Naïve to think mistakes explains all stories , I for instance talked to Either Jesus or an Angel that took human form and it quickly dawned on me I wasnt talking to a man then he performed miracles of New testament proportions before my eyes . You are the one with your head in the sand and coming up with irrational "explanations" not I.

[grandconjunct]

Your assuming all atheists are fundy atheists that read the bible all day in there

Parents basement then post on youtube sort of like the RRS and there cultic behavior . Believe it or not some atheists actually exist that don't read the bible all night , but instead party on weekends and figure lets drink , and be merry for tomorrow we die , and don't get themselves worked into a lather about religion 24/7 you seem to have a more naïve view of atheism than storms does.

[w1tch1tal1neman]

I agree not all atheists are 'fundy' or read the bible all night, and I would also agree that it would be a waste of time doing so. But I am of the opinion that for someone to make an educated decision on such a grand matter, they should at least investigate all aspects. That is all I meant by the term 'honest atheist'.

[w1tch1tal1neman]

More to the point, Storm described himself as "active", "vocal", "hostile to religion", and even mentions an occasion where he tries to talk a man out of entering into the clergy or priesthood. That I think, qualifies for fundy or militant and therefore having some knowledge on Bible teachings.

[w1tch1tal1neman]

While I consider myself to have good deal of knowledge about our minds and thinking, I certainly did not ever claim to be knowledgeable about religion. I will however concede that heterodox is a more apt word, though I would say there is a fine line between something being heterodox and becoming heretical. They both mean not in agreement with accepted beliefs.

[w1tch1tal1neman]

When I say familiar, it was familiar to popular culture (As in the western description of hell), not familiar to other NDEs. Read again.

[w1tch1tal1neman]

In fact Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, New Agers, have NDEs. What's funny is that they have similar parallels of out of body experiences, lights, tunnels, feeling of love, yet they do not all see Jesus. Some see other gods or spirits(things that are in their popular culture)- Yes, there is life out the USA. So what now my friend? Are you going to palm off their experiences as false because it contradicts yours?

[w1tch1tal1neman]

All this points to the fact, that while some people do experience visions close to death it is not a literal afterlife they are experiencing. My point in saying all this is, look at he whole picture and apply some logic to the findings

[w1tch1tal1neman]

Storm claims to have argued with Jesus over the cold war, where he even calls Him 'crazy'. If I die and come face to face with Jesus I will be sure to bring up the important topic of when allied troops will be able to withdraw from Iraq - ABSURD. I still offer liar as another explanation. I'm sure you're happy to acknowledge that Muhammad lied, as it is incompatible with your belief. Final word: NDEs being nothing more than a fabrication of the brain does not disprove Christianity!

[grandconjunct]

it seems hard for me to believe you actually listened to this video , Storms , clearly states like almost all NDErs ive read and talked to , the NDE seemed to last "months or years " its common to spend many hours recording the NDE interview of the events even they were dead only a few seconds.

So for you to try to spin this like Storms was just gabbing about pop politics with his buddy Jesus Makes you appear more dishonest and desperate than storms .

[grandconjunct]

not close to death , they are dead the EEG picks up any brain activity yet reads zero , while at the same time the person is having the most vivid coherent experience of there life including explaining hospital procedures perfectly and commonly describing what there families are doing hundreds of miles away , it is the atheist who fears the evidence and brings up big foot and spoon bending because they know logic will lead away from atheism. And they fear this.

[grandconjunct]

im glad you admit tunnels , feel love , light etc. so true , but your unaware Jesus is the most common person seen in NDEs , some never even heard of Christianity , say they asked the being of light what his name is and he says Jesus , some don't ask him and assume who he is. , I can interpret NDE data within my Christian theology easily ,

But notice whether they see Muhammad or Jesus , or a relative or there pastor as are often recorded in NDEs I can explain this the atheist cannot .

[grandconjunct]

Familiar description of Hell? that's funny I agree with you about it being a western /biblical conception of hell but most Christians actually ask where are the flames when they hear the Storms story ?

The non western Buddhist Dali lama also talks about Hell being a real place , and atheist A.J. Ayer

Describes hell differently than Storms , but Ayers description though less known to general public is exactly how many describe it in in Carol Zaleskis Book on the History of NDEs

[grandconjunct]

You consider yourself NOT to be knowledgeable about religion ? so you're saying your NOT an atheist ? Heterodox simply means someone who disagrees with some part of the Christianity that may be important such as the existence of hell , but that belief is not necessary for salvation .

If all your saying is NDEs may possibly help people to interpret the bible , that's a very uninteresting statement

[grandconjunct]

Again you apparently didn't listen to video

Storms said , he did have some knowledge of bible and enough to feel confident to argue against someone going into priesthood, but you still insist on believing a real atheist must have the bible basically memorized ? that's mind disorder atheism to me and the early storms probably would have agreed .

[grandconjunct]

If you had listened to video , then you heard Howard say he thought he knew enough to justify atheism and was confident enough to try and argue people out of devoting life to religion , he obviously didn't

Read the entire New testament . But then who other than a fundy atheist would think the bible is a useless fairytale but have much of it memorized ? Storms seems more honest and consistent than most youtube atheists .

[w1tch1tal1neman]

These comment boxes are far too small. You again show a master class in misunderstanding and word twisting - Read before you post. I never said I did not consider myself knowledgeable on religion; I only stated I never claimed to be, as that is what you accused me of saying. I do think I am knowledgeable though. Perhaps that is due to myself being brought up in church attending prayer meetings, youth groups etc for years. I thought I was discussing NDEs, not Christianity vs. Atheism...

[w1tch1tal1neman]

I will state again, as you do not seem to grasp what I am saying. We both agree that in depth knowledge of religion/Bible is not a 'prerequisite' to be an Atheist. What I am saying is that to be an intellectually honest Atheist they should at least examine its claims, a la Strobel before converting. Intellectual honesty would be investigating something before labelling it a fairytale. I never used the term 'real Atheist'. (Another eg. of your word twisting)

[w1tch1tal1neman]

I have agreed heterodox is a more apt word. My main point in the original post was advising Christians not to jump on Storms' bandwagon, simply because he speaks of Jesus. Like you admit, someone who disagrees with important parts of Christianity (your words).

[w1tch1tal1neman]

You can only interpret NDE info into your Christian theology because you ignore half the findings. Please explain how you interpret the NDE of a Native American medicine man, who met six grandfathers that gave him gifts and saw Native American symbols in the clouds, within your Christian theology? You can't. How can you interpret people having NDEs triggered by an orgasm? You can't. Be logical and look at all the findings.

[w1tch1tal1neman]

Atheism doesn't have to explain anything; we can see NDEs as something the brain triggers. It does not matter that it is vivid and coherent; people hypnotised report of seeing things vividly. Though there may be some aspects of NDEs that science cannot explain, it is not the point: it is your argument that this mans' story is literal and real, and confirms Christianity. I say it does not. P.S. His surname is Storm, not Storms

[grandconjunct]

Yes the Brain can trigger an NDE/OBE but a brain with absolutely zero activity as the EEG shows cannot produce any thought at all let alone a vivid coherent description of resucitation process , try hypnotizing a dead person to do that!, and people born blind from birth who don't even dream

In vision yet see all of these same things also. Atheism pretends to have part of the NDE explained but they have none of it so explained so far

[nippznvag]

agreed

[grandconjunct]

Ignore half the findings ? LOL no I take all of it into account , and atheism cant deal with any of the data so it changes the subject to well you Christians cant explain every detail of NDE within Christianity therefore im rational to be an atheist , that's putting the head in the sand . running from evidence and being hyporitical saying science doesnt understand everything about NDE but Main stream denominations should have it all wired !!

[grandconjunct]

6 grandfathers ? LOL like I said earlier people almost always see relatives in NDEs and NDEs are I believe cocreated between the soul and God , so God communicates through the traditions people have . so your "exotic" native American NDE is a problem for the atheist not a chrisitian like myself .

Notice i still havent called any NDE a lie yet or anyone mistaken or crazy , but the atheist still chokes unless he does so.

[grandconjunct]

Out of body experiences can be triggered through a long list of things , tramatic experiences , Drugs , etc.. etc.. this does not prove its "all brain chemicals" .

But only that OBEs and the brain are interrelated . but who didn't know that

other than a few village atheists ?

And OBEs are not NDEs that's why they have different names , NDEs happens while there is ZERO brain activity i.e. Death .

[grandconjunct]

No one is jumping on Storm's bandwagon

He is simply one of millions of NDEs to be examined to see if it fits with NDEs in general then take all generalized NDE data and see how it fits with different philosophies , atheism , theism , Christianity, etc. then people can come up with there own explanation of the NDE , but so far Atheism has zero explanation. regardless of how much it may or may not contradict christinaity in your shallow underestanding of both.

[grandconjunct]

I have never met an atheist with an indepth knowledge of Christianity and bible. the entire knowledge of bible and atheism question arose since storm was unaware of John 21:25 when he was atheist. You wont admit it but you think an atheist should have bible memorized you're a fundy atheist , for you to say storm didn't have this verse down therefore he "didn't exam Christianity" and wasn't an atheist and therefore a liar shows how desperate your are.

[grandconjunct]

The Only Twisting im doing is the untwisting of your thoughts . You never claimed to not be knowledgeable on religion ???? really

Let me copy and paste your words for you

""", I certainly did not ever claim to be knowledgeable about religion """""<< your words w1tch , not mine.

W1tch how do you keep your head from exploding from all the contradictions inside it ?