remember remember the 5th of november...wow the watchtower is the NWO of religion! im amazed i really am...ok lets put our cards on the table once and for all...if your "GOD"s chosen people...then explain why you have so many false teachings or extra-biblical beliefs! 1914,1925,1975, the reason why you dont partake of the bread and wine even though the bible says too,jesus being michael the archangel??? WHY DO YOU DENY JESUS BEING THE ALPHA AND OMEGA? make your move...
JW's say they are not inspired, claiming they are just "spirit directed." But they fail to understand that words do in fact mean things, and that by definition, inspired MEANS spirit directed. - They also claim they have THE truth....despite the fact that their "truth" changes all the time, and from year to year....their truth of today, (from God) becoming mistakes tomorrow. - So, how can they be SO sure they have the "truth" today?
@Justice4vr "but lord, didn't we do good works in your name and expel demons in your name?" Would that appear as love? Is love unconditional? See, if I love you, you can believe whatever religion you want to and we're still cool. All that love you're talking that JWs have is on the condition that you conform to a set of beliefs. Then if you look at the predictions that didn't come to pass and call them on it, THEY label YOU. Maybe I missed something but what's so loving about that?
@Justice4vr Let's start with the Watchtower Jesus that returned in 1914. Everything that you claim has to be backed up with this date. If there is no 1914 then you have nothing but fairytale. I find it humorous that you said; "One should scrutinize the present system not the past system." Excellent reasoning. What's going on with Traralgon congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses in Australia RIGHT now? It looks like the "True Christians" deliberately broke the laws of the land?
@Justice4vr You talked about all the publications that the watchtower has to offer? Here is one of my favorites.
"They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such 'Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago."(Watchtower, 8/15/81) So that means the Trinity,Deity and bodily resurrection are bible teachings?
Isn't it strange JWs say their ENEMY is "Christendom" .....I do not know what JW's think it is but Christendom is "Christ's Kingdom"!.....So they are saying Christ's Kingdom is the ENEMY?
@sikovit "So they are saying Christ's Kingdom is the ENEMY?" Again, 40 yrs being a JW and youre asking this question? lol Just as I thought, more like 40 yrs as an empty shell and seat warmer at the hall. That term is used by us for the whole body of those that claim to know Christ including Mormons, Catholics and all the many sects. The Kingdom of God and his Christ is NOT the enemy. Whats next? The WT ties their shoe laces differently than everyone else? lol
Isn't it funny how the Society's past comes back to haunt them. Either in the literature they print or in the things they bury. When this stuff was disposed of I guess the thinking was that the Paradise would be here in a few years so it wouldn't matter. Guess they should have had this CO give this talk at morning worship that day.
@Justice4vr In fact is is different. I'm not proclaiming that I have "The truth" and that one needs to "be in association" with me. Nor am I claiming that one has to believe in me for salvation. The Bibles message, the way I read, is Follow Christ, not man. I somehow don't believe that's going to come back to haunt me.
@earnestlyseeking I don't know Dan. Jesus mentioned the Watchtower and their publications so many times. All those Bethel tours and all that time he spent doing quick build kingdom halls. :')
@earnestlyseeking friend youre not proclaiming to have the "truth", then why should I even believe your comment at all? Question, do you need to be "in association" with a congregation if you have one available to be saved? Oh and since the bibles message is "follow the Christ", then you must be, according to Hebrews 13:17, submissive to men, to those taking the lead.
@Justice4vr It obvious you not going to believe my comments or anyone else s. The problem is you don't even believe your own organization. If you did you would apply the counsel to not have anything to do with "apostates". Didn't the 7-11 Wat. say you should avoid us like someone with a disease? Does that mean everyone but you? I'm an "apostate" according to your religion, but yet you seem comfortable posting messages to me. So Are you being submissive to those taking the lead?
@earnestlyseeking "The problem is you don't even believe your own organization. If you did you would apply the counsel to not have anything to do with "apostates""
Oh lol you mean 2 John 9-11? Yes buddy, thats a bible teaching not some rule the organization came up with? Why do you people always miss that. Go blame God, I dare you.
@Justice4vr As I've said before. When John penned those words, and when he said "If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching," I highly doubt he had the teachings of the modern day organization in mind. You know, like 1914. Yet if a JW today chooses not to believe in 1914 he gets tossed out as an "apostate". 1914 is a real true apostate teaching. Because it's not in the Bible. Jesus is God, that is in the Bible. nuff said.
1. " I highly doubt he had the teachings of the modern day organization in mind" lol you dont sound too convinced. What if they DO believe in Jesus, but believe... Jesus is one of three Gods like the Mormons and were out and about teaching it to your brothers? Would you not apply this verse to them? What about Romans 16:17 regarding those causings any sort of "divisions" in the congregation, what does it say we must do with them? Here lets put you to the test:
2. Youre a pastor of your congregation, some dude that goes to your church is teaching your fellow brothers the 1914 doctrine and some them believe this guy, but some dont. You speak to this guy and realize he WONT stop teaching this to your brothers. You are the pastor of those poor defenseless sheep, what do you?
@Justice4vr What any good pastor would do in this situation is say "You can promote whatever you want, but as for us, we are going to stick to Gods word". If enough people in the congregation started believing in 1914 based on the renegade members teaching, then they could vote to have the pastor removed and replaced with one teaching 1914. Probably never would happen tho, because 1914 is an apostate teaching. Most people would agree with that, except for jws of course, :)
@earnestlyseeking lol wait, wait. Youre saying you would just LET this "wolf in sheeps clothing" contaminate or kill your sheep? Dude youre a horrible pastor. You are the pastor and you already see others believing this guys "lies" and yet you do nothing to protect your flock? How many people have to fall for this guys "lies" until you do something for the rest of the flock? According to you: until they vote me out? lol. Read the bible my friend.
@Justice4vr In John chapter 10 Jesus said his sheep don't listen to the voice of strangers. So a true Christian minister doesn't have to worry excessively about the flock being led astray. Jesus is the shepherd the pastor is just an assistant to the shepherd. This highlights the big problem with the JW organization. They try to take the place of the Shepherd. They want people to follow them and many do. Who are you following?
@earnestlyseeking Wow you either have not read the bible or are trying too hard to recover from your earlier comment. According to your interpretation of John Ch 10, there is no need for pastors or warnings of any kind because in the end Jesus' sheep dont listen to strangers anyway. Why would Jesus warn us of this and that, of false Christs and false Prophets if in the end his true sheep wouldnt listen to them anyway? There would be no point in warning his disciples.
@earnestlyseeking "Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. --->Be SHEPHERDS <---- of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood." Acts 20:28 NIV
Did you notice the part where it says "Keep Watch over... all the flock"? The "JW organization" as you call it is not taking the place of THE shepherd, but actually shepherding his flock they way he wants us to.
@earnestlyseeking Who am I following? The true Jesus Christ! Yes "The Son of God", not "God the Son". The one that teaches us to work hard, unlike you who lazy off and try to justify it with scripture. This actually highlights the huge problem with false Christians like you who try to put down a group of people for actually taking care of their flock. BTW, you sir are the FIRST to tell me that he would allow someone to continue to spread lies in his own church.
@Justice4vr You talk like you are the authority of me. I happen to know that if you are one of JWs you are NOT following Christ. Because like all good JWs, you do all that the Society teaches, ...oh ...wait a minute scratch that. I forgot you are deliberately disobeying them by continuing to talk to me. And for your information, I don't have a church. Why don't you start obeying that organization you are following. Or drop them and surrender yourself totally to Christ.
@earnestlyseeking Sir im just slaming you with scripture and common sense. You say you dont have a church? the Whole thing was hypothetical remember? Sir we belong to Christ and you dont because if you did, you would be a part of his body that which is; the Congregation. I made it clear to you that ignoring apostates is a bible teaching, take it up with God. No, not the Trinity, but Jehovah.
@Justice4vr 1914 in scripture? Is "common sense" to treat family like they don't exist? Was it "common sense" that Charles Russel taught till his death that Jesus had invisibly returned in 1874? You aren't practicing what you preach in regard to "ignoring apostates" or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Better go back to your "spiritual paradise" (AKA cult) before you get caught and halled into the back room for dis-obeying the "slave"
@earnestlyseeking Werent we talking about those that cause divisions and what should be done with them? Thats the common sense I mentioned, please stay with me. I do practice what the bible says about avoiding apostates, but I dont know that youre an apostate, I dont know your history. So what do i do? I TRY to show them the truth and if they dont want to listen and keep spreading lies then I apply the scripture to them. Instead of focusing on the point youre trying to get me to leave. sad
@earnestlyseeking I highly doubt youre "earnestly seeking" anything at all. Youre simply a disgruntled ex JW from what it appears who has no idea what is trully in the bible. Youve been destroyed with scripture and common sense REGARDING those that teach different and cause divisions and youre upset and instead of taking advantage that Im here trying to reason with you, you want to get me to stop talking to you lol. Swallow your pride, its about Jesus NOT you.
I pray that all of my JW brothers and sisters wake up and begin to serve "The Real Jesus"....not Abaddon/Appollyon the destroyer that the WT says IS Christ!
@Justice4vr I was a JW for 40 years......I saw the brainwashing first hand with the WT's "Obviously's" and "Logically's".....Not only do I have and studied all the Wt's publications but have studied books and history that YOU as a JW are NOT allowed to even read!....So, How is it I am brain washed...I do NOT follow "MEN" who "channel" the Holy Spirit to tell me what it says!...YOU as a JW are being set up to serve the AntiChrist!...Please Be AWAKE!...Because the Wt is asleep!
@sikovit I was a JW for BLAH BLAH years. You knew theres JWs that have only been JWs for 5 yrs that have more experience than people like you who are always claiming to have been a JW for 40 or 50 yrs. Time is nothing, experience is everything. You ARE brainwashed, Ill show you: Where is the truth?
@Justice4vr THE TRUTH?...You as a JW are serving "the angel of the bottomless pit". Do the research!...You do a satanic Black Mass every nisan 14....YOU pass the blood and flesh that My savior meant "for all" and Deny the sacrifice! Read John 6!...Oh that's right JW's only read what the WT says the Bible says..I will be praying that YHWH will open your closed eyes...You man follower!
@sikovit Typical. I asked sikovit to show me THE truth and instead of doing that, he goes on to show me why ONE religion is not the truth. Another thing is you mention the questions asked by JWs during baptism...ok..WHATS YOUR POINT? Then you mention a verse that not only the NWT omits but also the NIV, the ESV, the NLT along with many other translations, but wait, the NWT is the corrupt one right? lol. Show me where I can find THE truth, I want a real answer next time... You Satan follower
Stephen Kings "The Stand" pretty much sums up the JW mindset as to what the Earth will be like post Armageddon. Most applicable is the part where the survivors have to clean up Boulder, Co, removing dead bodies, restoring power, selecting the nicest houses and cars for themselves. LOL
@EastGateShut November 5, is a Vast Apostate Army date. It is a date that comes from a fictional character who fought the machine, fought against propaganda, dictatorship, etc. Many ex-cult members, and others, have adopted some of the symbolisms of this fictional character, because we are fighting for the same thing, him in a story, us in real life.
@Justice4vr Yup, too bad the WT even fails at that one. They do not baptize in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit. Nope JWs get baptized in the name of the father, the son, and the WT organization. Can't even do that one. So much for not going beyond what is written.
@Danmera Oh yes we do. We just dont "say it" at the moment of baptism since the bible doesnt say you have to "say it", you have to live it. We most definitely DO NOT baptize in the name of the WT org, whered you hear that, cmon, youre misrepresenting us.
@Danmera danmera, danmera, as you said these are "questions" not a baptismal formula. These questions have nothing to do with the formula found in Matt 28:19, thats exactly what all these people arent getting. These questions are not the BAPTISMAL FORMULA. Think about it, WITH ALL HONESTLY, just for a moment. The formula is not UTTERED at baptism (which is not even scriptural) its lived Danmera. Cmon wake up please.
@Justice4vr Where do the scriptures talk about this formula? That scripture is pretty darn clear. I say it again, the WT fails at even that scripture. You can tell yourself whatever you want, but it's very clear.
@Danmera The 2 questions are not a formula, they are just two FINAL questions. Look, just try to be reasonable here, is there just ONE verse in the bible that says you must SAY those words found in Matthew 28:19 at baptism? Theres not. Only the trinitarians ritually utter the words, we live them.
@Justice4vr Matt 28:19 - baptize in the name of the father, the son, and the holy spirit. 1 Cor 4:6 - do not go beyond the things that are written.
WT. - Oh this is just a formula, yeah Jesus said that, but he didn’t really mean it, he meant it was only a suggestion.
Show me the scripture that says this is a suggested "formula". You can rationalize all you want, it doesn't change a thing. I no longer twist my head into circles trying to protect these wolves, but you keep trying.
@Justice4vr You need to review the questions again, you answer in the affirmative, that your baptism dedicates you to Jehovah, Jesus and the Watchtower Corporation, they do not follow the scriptures. Follow men? Not anymore.
@Danmera "that your baptism dedicates you to Jehovah" Are you sure thats in Questions? Look at the question that YOU posted. Where does it say "your baptism dedicated you to Jehovah or the ORG"? It doesnt. We get baptized BECAUSE weve dedicated ourselves to Jehovah, not the other way around and our "baptism and dedication" IDENTIFY us as JWs. Just step back a bit and see the whole picture, cmon dont lie to yourself, have integrity. Look at the questions again.
@Danmera it doesnt "spell it out" because its not a baptismal formula. They are questions. I mean doesnt the baptizer want to know if the the guy getting baptized has REPENTED and DEDICATED themselves to Jehovah, and that their baptism AND dedication identify them as Christians that are now part of the congregation?
@Danmera Danmera Im all for 2 Tim 2:14, BELIEVE ME PLEASE. What Im trying to show you is that "baptize in the name..." does not mean "baptize UTTERING: In the name...". Im trying to help you and defend my family. Forget the darn "words" Im trying to help YOU! You know what Im saying makes sense, I know you do and as you see them accuse us of baptizing in the name of the WT, youre going to see how ridiculous they really are more and more. Be reasonable please.
@Justice4vr You ARE baptized in the name of the WT. You can argue all day long, this means this or that means that or you don't understand it's really just a "formula" but at the end of the day you are baptized in the name of MEN.
As I have said before, it is not just THIS issue, that proves they one of the false prophets. Bible says test every inspired expression, NOT inspired men, should be under even more scrutiny. THEY are YOUR salvation, you should scrutinize them, then you would see.
@Danmera You know Ive broken it down for you on both the questions and the verse itself to help you see the truth using their own words. You on the other hand have twisted the questions to make it say what its not saying and when it comes to the verse, you want to add words to it as if it were saying you must utter certain words during baptism WHEN IT DOESNT SAY THAT. I dont care if there are many issues regarding them, Im focused on this one issue. Dont be afraid to accept this.
@Justice4vr JW's have two questions asked when getting baptized - you idiot!.One is scriptural.....the other is "in association with Jehovah's witnesses and the HOLY SPIRITED ORGANIZATION"..Maybe you should check you organization book!...Better yet if you have the guts Read Acts 8:37 and see "The Truth"...The truth is the NWT is corrupted and omits many scriptures. What do you have to say about that-fish?
@Justice4vr Haha, The WT is not my King so no persecution here.
WT Nov. 15, 1963 "Execution of Divine Judgment upon False Religion" It is not a form of religious persecution for anyone to say and to show that another religion is false."
Seriously, once you stop twisting yourself into a pretzel to protect the men, it is undeniable just how false they are.
@Justice4vr "" Danmer when will you stop persecuting your King and your people?""" Interesting how Danmeras reply to this silly comment was so damaging that you had to hit the spam button on the post. Nice try to attempt to hide the evidence and censor a reasonable response. However I don't allow that here.
@21crosscheck21 Would you look at that! the man who "is too busy" to answer my direct question (1 Question that Ive been waiting over 2 weeks to be answered) is now butting in, hmm. OH and NO, I didnt hit any "SPAM" button, not very Christian of you to be assuming that kind of thing. Im glad you dont allow that kind of stuff, but you should practice it yourself before saying that. Yes dont hide from a question with "Im too busy".
@Justice4vr Between comments, pm's, phone calls emails etc. I receive well over 2000 a month. I answer as I have time and how I choose. What makes you more important then the others that I should drop them and answer you?
"Where is the "pointing them out" part?" I'll do it right now. You need to stop following men, repent and trust in Jesus.
@Justice4vr While you are waiting for 21crosscheck21 I have a question which I have often puzzled over. Who was the Faithful and Discreet Slave in relatively modern times, say, in the 1700s and early 1800s? I can quite understand historical records being difficult back in the first few centuries, C.E. but coming more up to date, there ought to be historical evidence of such a group exisiting, if it has been there in unbroken succession, since Pentecost.
@The1hope4all I wasnt alive back then, neither is everything written in history books. what I do know is that your fellow Christian brothers back then burned "heretics" alive at the stake which probably means that those "heretics" that deny the divinity of Jesus Christ probably had to go underground. I also know that there was a great apostasy that crippled the Congregation for many years along with Constantines rule.
@Justice4vr You are referring to events much further back in history - you are right that written records are difficult during those times. I was talking about modern times, though - if there was a FADS in the 17 and 1800s, there ought to be plenty of written evidence for it, and they Russell would have been in close contact with them. The fact is, though, Russell was completely on his own. Who was the Slave immediately prior to Russell?
@The1hope4all "Who was the Slave immediately prior to Russell?" I dont know who was the slave was back then, its not written anywhere that Ive seen. I do know the weeds overshadowed the wheat for a long time and the weeds are now beginning to shine. So, I do know who the slave is today.
@Justice4vr I'll repost it for her: Haha, The WT is not my King so no persecution here.
WT Nov. 15, 1963 "Execution of Divine Judgment upon False Religion" It is not a form of religious persecution for anyone to say and to show that another religion is false."
Seriously, once you stop twisting yourself into a pretzel to protect the men, it is undeniable just how false they are.
@21crosscheck21 "WT Nov. 15, 1963 "Execution of Divine Judgment upon False Religion" It is not a form of religious persecution for anyone to say and to show that another religion is false."
Very true, the difference here is that apostates and the apostate fed people like you lie and twist a true religion. Thats persecution.
@21crosscheck21 I asked 21crosscheck21 to point out the present day disciples that were commanded by Christ in Matthew 28:18-20 and instead of pointing them out to me, he stated "the present day disciples are those that have accepted the Gospel". Where is the "pointing them out" part?
@Justice4vr What do you mean? Names, addresses and telephone numbers? People who have been born again, through repentance and belief in Jesus, and have entered into the New Covenant are scattered throughout the earth, in various churches, groups and fellowships. People who have been born again recognise one another as such, when they meet.
@The1hope4all Yes give me contact information and dont forget a very important thing, those that you point out must "speak the same things" as you according to 1 Cor 1:10. There is only one truth and if you are disciples of Jesus, "teaching all his commandments" (Matt 28:18-20), then you all must be teaching the same things. Dont forget that the Catholics are "born again" as they claim, so are they a part of your worldwide congregation of God?
@Justice4vr There has been, under the New Covenant, as under the old, a "falling away" and a breaking up of the ONE people of God into different groups and denominations and sects, even. The people of God, those born again, are divided and scattered throughout the world. There is no one single organisation which has the one complete unadultertaed truth, not even the Watchtower! Only when the Lord Jesus returns will all be restored and the wheat and tares sorted from one another.
@The1hope4all "There is no one single organisation which has the one complete unadultertaed truth, not even the Watchtower!" But there are many organizations who go it WAY wrong like the Trinitarians. We are not talking about complete truth, we are talking about unity in Gods worldwide congregation of which you admitted there is no unity. There is a group of over 7 million who are united in their teaching by will and belief. Maybe you people arent united but we are.
@Justice4vr You see, what you Trinitarians do is throw your hands up and say we cant be united at all so were not even gonna try, were just gonna work the ministry completely oblivious of one another competing for church attendants on opposing sides of the street. And if our governments wanna fight each other for whatever reason they try to justify (US/Iraq war), well were just gonna have to bomb each other to pieces, because thats Christian love. hmmm?
@Justice4vr We are going to be united, and we have to obey the command to be "At peace with all men" The Lord Jesus will return and restore all things, so I'm very confident. At the end of the day it's Jesus who saves us, not denominations or human organisations.
@The1hope4all "Only Jesus can save" Agreed. So why are you and your bretheren collectively or together not obeying Jesus words in Matthew 28:18-20? Why does it take you people decades to knock on my door and bring me the Gospel? Why is another group of people which you people call a "cult" walking about the streets knocking on doors consistently in unity and in an organized manner, men, women, and children all "speaking the same thing"? Where are you and why are they here at my door step??
@Justice4vr Someone who has truly been "born again" will be a witness for Jesus, as an individual and collectively, in local congregations. The local congregations here in my home town try to testify practically to the love of God through a great many activities, seeking to help various kinds of needy people, as well as preaching and bible teaching. Going "door to door" is only one method of many.
@The1hope4all Jehovah makes it easy for you to find his people and you ignore it. Its clear who the present day disciples are according to Mathew 28:18-20. Anywhere you go, you will find my brothers and sisters teaching the same thing. So if you just want to ignore that, then let it be against your conscience.
@Justice4vr It's not people who have saved me, it's Jesus. I love Jesus, and try to live a life worthy of this. I have fellowship with other people who also love Jesus. My wife and I studied for about a year with a very nice lady from the Kingdom Hall, but the further we proceeded, the more discrepancies we discovered between Watchtower teachings and the bible. If there is a difference between what somebody teaches, and the Bible, it's safer to stick with the Bible. God bless you.
@The1hope4all no one said people SAVE others. Did I say that? nope. Way to go on twisting my words. "its safer to stick with THE bible"??? Didnt know you read Ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Are you talking about the bible in your own that some dude who calls himself a scholar interpreted and translated according to HIS beliefs? How can it be "safer" to read some dudes interpreted translation?
@Justice4vr Sorry about mis-understanding. You seemed to be implying that salvation was only possible through Jesus AND asscosiation with one particular group of believers, but I'm relieved to see that you don't think that after all. As for Bible translations, my preferred version is the American Standard Bible, which was also the preferred translation for the Bible Students and then the Jehovah's Witnesses for at least 70 years.
@The1hope4all You know God sent Philip to preach and baptize the Ethiopian. God also uses his people to save people, we dont save anyone he does the saving. My point is that these people God is using to "save" other are easy to find wherever you go and they MUST be teaching the same thing. Tell me something, is your translation inspired meaning, did God inspire the translators of the ASB? If not, then your translation is not perfect, so how can you relly on some guys interpretation?
@Justice4vr OK, point accepted,used as instruments by God to bring about his salvation. Which Bible translation do you prefer? Were the translators scholars, and were they anointed or non-anointed Witnesses? The Society has used the ASB for most of it's history, longer than the NWT, so it can't be all that bad, can it?
@The1hope4all I like to use many different translations to get a better wider view of a certain verse. I mainly use the NWT because my fellow brothers publish it. It really doesnt matter to me who produced it, as long as its put to the test and it keeps its ground. What I do know is that you can get a NWT for free, but if you buy a ASB, their owners are making a profit. " you receive free, give free". No, the ASB is not all that bad, but its not perfect. Point: dont relly on a TRANSLATION.
@Justice4vr Glad to hear that you use different translations, but I'm a bit confused about your advice to not rely on any translation. Unless you are a Greek and Hebrew scholar, you don't have any choice, do you? I've got a New World Translation Greek Interlinear, so it's at least possible to check the translation against the Greek. The ASB is published, by the way, by the Lockman Foundation, which is a Not-For-Profit organisation.
@The1hope4all Thats right you dont have a choice. Your trust should be placed, not on a translation, but upon on the fruit of Jesus disciples. Only one group of people on this planet have the fruits Jesus spoke about.
For example, the catholics read a translation of the bible and yet they pray to Mary!
The Mormons have their own translation of the old and new testament and yet they follow Joseph Smith. Look at the Jonestown people.
@Justice4vr Forgive me for saying this, but you seem again, to be deflecting the rightful attention away from Jesus, the beginner and finisher of our faith, to a group of people, whoever it is you mean. The words of Jesus sum things up very well: "You search the scriptures because you think you will find life in them, but you refuse to come to me" Jesus also said "I AM the way, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE' My faith and hope is in Jesus and his finished work for me.
@The1hope4all No, thats not what Im trying to do, let me elaborate: It is these people that will preach the TRUE Jesus. EVERYONE has a bible isnt that true? The catholic, the JW, the Baptist, the Adventist etc, but they each come to you with a different teaching of who Jesus is. Let me just add that even reading a particular translation youre already in the teaching of its translator's religion. Heres a scenario:
@The1hope4all If I ask you what is the Truth, you will say "Jesus is the Truth", but then I will ask you, who is this Jesus?
"Where am I to get this knowledge of Jesus? From your interpretation, the JW interpretation, the Adventist interpretation, the Catholic interpreation etc?"
You will say: "the bible" and I will say "which translation, the one translated by the catholics? the one translated by baptists, the one translated by the JWs etc?"
Well, actually I don't really say, first and foremost, the Bible, although that is an invaluable help. Remember, Jesus rebuked those who thought they would find life in the scriptures, without coming directly to him for their spiritual life. Jesus himself, is the best place to get to know Jesus, through prayer, listening to him speaking to our hearts, allowing the Holy Spirit to form the nature and character of Jesus in our lives, becoming meek and humble, as he is.
@Justice4vr Did you post this after my last response, the one that starts "I first commend you on your search etc..."? If so, then the same answer applies, also in these circumstances.
@The1hope4all No doubt there is BIASM in bible translations, everyone knows that. But you and I both know that there is only one Truth, one Jesus. So what you is you read many translations and you look at the undisputed agreed upon verses among all and you look at the fruit of those teachers to see if they have the fruit of the spirit and if they do then THEY must be the ones teaching the RIGHT JESUS.
I first commend you on your search for truth. I then point out that Jesus is the truth, and that you can come to Jesus through repenting of having lived your life without him, and - if you are ready to take that step - help you to pray a simple prayer, asking for forgiveness, and Jesus to be your Lord and Saviour from this point on. We ask also for the promised Holy Spirit to guide you/us into all truth, especially the truth about our need of grace, and the kindness of the Living God
@The1hope4all "I then point out that Jesus is the truth"
Do you see what just happened here? You just became the referring agent towards Jesus for me. It took a person to tell me about Jesus. But we have a problem because some other guy is also referring me over to Jesus but this guy says Jesus is NOT God. Two agents, two different Jesus'. We examine the fruits of these agents, is that not reasonable?
@Justice4vr The most important thing is that you, or whoever it might be, has a life changing encounter with the living God, through his Son, Jesus Christ, that you know your sins are forgiven, you have been born again by the Spirit of God. This is the miracle of new birth, direct from God. Are you sure the "other guy" is referring you over to Jesus? In my experience, JWs talk about Jesus in polite and respectful tones, but tend to refer people more towards the society.
@The1hope4all " In my experience, JWs talk about Jesus in polite and respectful tones, but tend to refer people more towards the society."
Regardless of what you experience, the point Im trying to make is that theres you trinitarians and there JWs referring people to Jesus, but you people are divided among yourselves, you kill each other in war, you differ in teachings such as speaking in tongues, and I havent had you preach to me at home or on the street as Matt 28:18-20 says, but they do.
@Justice4vr I understand the point you are making, but the claim of Jesus to be "THE way, THE truth, and THE life" stands. God has shown us in his written word, that Jesus is the only way to God, and that through Jesus, we can experience all of the amazing things I have already listed. Until someone has had this experience, he is still "dead in his sins" and without the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit, completely unable to please God.
@The1hope4all I agree that Jesus is the way, truth and life. My question to you is why do you have a different Jesus than I do? Why should I believe you preach the right one when you people are COMPLETELY divided amongst each other? Why should I believe your version of Jesus instead of the JWs who actually are united WORLDWIDE, are peaceful, dont go to war AT ALL, display love among each other and actually heed Jesus' command to preach in every nation HIS COMMANDMENTS? TELL ME PLEASE...
@Justice4vr The main thing which must first be sorted out is: Have you had a life changing encounter with Jesus? Have you had your sins forgiven? Are you born again? Do you have God's Spirit dwelling in your heart? If the answer is "no", then no amount of looking at the skeletons in the Christian Church or the Societies' closets will help at all, I'm afraid, as you will not be able to enter God's Kingdom. This is the Watchtower tradgedy: proclaiming a Kingdom you will never enter...
@The1hope4all Okay look: 1. You didnt answer my question. 2. How could someone have a "life changing encounter with Jesus" if that person has no knowledge of Jesus Christ? 3. JWs will indeed enter Gods Kingdom since it will be brought to earth; "thy kingdom come". 4. According to you, I can get a free copy of the bible version you have from the publishers since they are non profit?
@Justice4vr 1. The story of the Phillipian jailer in Acts 16 is helpful - from his first hearing about Jesus, to being saved and baptised, less than 24 hours went by. 2. JWs will not enter God's Kingdom on the earth or anywhere else, as Jesus says that no-one who is not born again will enter God's Kingdom and 3: I don't know if you could get a free ASB Bible, try writing to the Lockman Foundation, otherwise I'd be most happy to supply you with one, if you can wait a couple of weeks.
@The1hope4all 1. That has nothing to do with my question. The question was why should I believe your version of Jesus Christ as opposed to someone elses version when you dont even display the fruit they do? 2. You skipped this one 3. Jesus is speaking about the heavenly literal kingdom, thats why you see in verse 3 he says "see" the kingdom. 4. My point is, its not free. 5. What books did you study in that one year with JWs?
@Justice4vr OK, I completely release you from any expectation at all to believe anything I say about Jesus or anything else, that's not important, you can completely ignore me if you like. What cannot be ignored, however, is the claims of Jesus on your life, and his offer of salvation and forgiveness. I'm not your teacher or pastor or anything. Jesus is Jesus, regardless of anyone's "version" of him.
@The1hope4all 1. Well... you ARE commanded to "teach" me all of Jesus' commandments. And you may "release me from any expectation at all to believe anything you say about Jesus", but my question still stands: Why should I believe you over the JW who actually displays the fruits that your people cant"?
@Justice4vr Yes, I am commanded that, but only if you are willing to hear. I'm certainly not going to force forgiveness, new life and blessing on anyone if they are not interested.
@Justice4vr You don't know me, how are you able to tell how much spiritual fruit there is in my life? I'm glad the other Witnesses I've spoken too are not cold and judgmental like you are. You know NOTHING about the commitment I've made to my God, what it has cost me (like having to flee the country I used to live in) You have NO RIGHT AT ALL to speak about me in those terms. This conversation is over.
...continued... I committed my life to God at an early age, I've been through highs and lows, lived amongst leprousy sufferers in Asia, helped homeless people in Germany, risked my life taking aid to far flung parts of the world. I don't normally mention this stuff, but you've provoked me. The Holy Spirit has been doing his work in my heart very patiently for a long time. In calling me "fruitless" you have insulted the work of God's Holy Spirit in me. Better get on your knees...
@The1hope4all Sir simply helping the needy does not make you a Christian, but heeding all of Jesus commands does, you know, like actually preaching his commandments all over the planet. Dont speak like you know us JWs, we are Jesus' true disciples, so watch what you say. The Holy Spirit is not in you otherwise you wouldnt be working against it.
@Justice4vr Ah, so you only follow some of the commandments. Got it.
What exactly did the apostles and disciples teach? Who were they talking about? Seriously. Did they teach "Follow the WT, Follow men. You can pick and chose?" What WAS their message? Who was the focus of their ministry, who is the focus of yours? This is a rhetorical question, I just ask that you be honest with yourself.
@Danmera Matt 24:14... "This good news of kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth" thats one, "the good news", yes which includes the sacrifice of our King Jesus Christ.
@Justice4vr And who is the way to that kingdom? Men? or....
Really is it good news to have to be tied to the WT? To be tied to Men? To be tied to those who are no different than the rest of "christendom" whom they hate? There is a VERY good reason Jesus said "do not go after them" Jesus never was involved in child molestation scandals, or toxic dump scandals, or financial scandals, or in bed with the wild beast scandals. These MEN have you convinced, you need THEM, screw Jesus. He isn't for you.
@Danmera Weve gone over this already Danmera, Jesus is the way! The congregation is the organized body of Christ. "involved in child molestation scandals, or toxic dump scandals, or financial scandals, or in bed with the wild beast scandals." Show me a congregation without scandal.... go ahead....
@Justice4vr Jesus is not the way, for you. Don't you read your own literature? These MEN are the way for YOU.
Don't you think if this organization were really "spirit directed" it would be clean? You don't get to use that excuse. You can't claim to be God's "organization", and then claim to be no different than any other "organization". Doesn't quite work.
I believe they are spirit directed, but the Holy Spirit is not the spirit directing them.
@Danmera "Don't you read your own literature? These MEN are the way for YOU."
no danmera, thats your biased understanding of the literature. Spirit directed does not equal perfection. Spirit inspiration does. Direction; you make the move, Inspiration: God moves you.
As for biased understanding. Seriously? Are you really serious here?
It is a MAJOR theme of the literature. You can ONLY be saved thru them. THEY are your salvation. They alone. You are not fooling me, or anyone else who may be reading these comments. You are only fooling yourself. *head explodes*
@Danmera put your head back together try to keep up and listen carefully: we are NOT inspired neither did I give you reason to believe that. AND there are two types of people on this planet, those that teach you a false Christ and those that teach you the True Christ and those that teach the True Christ are the JWs.
@Justice4vr Says who? The men in charge, the men who "claim" special enlightenment and direction even tho not inspired and imperfect proven false? The men who encourage you to only read their "understanding" of it, even tho it proves false time after time?
"don't check for yourself, that just shows lack of faith, and since we are your salvation, to show lack of faith in our understand, even tho it is most likely wrong, will risk your very salvation. Obey us to be saved" I'll have to pass on that
@Danmera "says who?" the fruit danmera.. the FRUIT. for example John 13:34,35 where Jesus says that all will know that they are his disciples, IF they have love among themselves. Everyone else on this planet is killing themselves in war, EVERYONE even the so called "christians" and only the JWs arent, thats ONE fruit. Only the JWs are known for evangelizing WORLDWIDE in unity "speaking the same thing", thats another FRUIT. The fruit danmera, look for the fruit!!!!
@Justice4vr The fruit? You mean like the background in pyramidology, spiritism, etc etc. Or the child molestation cover ups, or maybe the fornicating with the wild beast, or any other of the vile things they have done and are still doing. This is not about the rank and file, they command you to do this or that, then they hide behind YOUR fruits (see we go door to door, boasting how great you are), to do whatever they want. "do NOT go after them", very clear instruction here. Men=Not the way.
@Danmera if you look for the bad in anyone on earth you will find much, everyone is guilty of this, we are all sinners, we all make mistakes. What you should look for is the good in people like obediance to Christ. Imagine if God judged you by your mistakes, would you be to stand? Your hate ONLY allows you to see the negative, we ALL have something negative.
@Justice4vr Again, I am imperfect this is so very true, however I don't claim to be the way to salvation, I don't demand that millions obey me to be saved, I don't demand you believe I say without question because I what I say comes from God. That is why you don't follow MEN.
TEST means to look, to dig, to question, to research. And courage, to accept what you find. WT says, oh don't do that, just listen ONLY to us, we are your salvation.
@Danmera Speaking of the United Nations! You should see the article that the elders brought by on Sunday. It's pretty obvious that they didn't read what they left with my wife, especially if they are concerned that I might be an apostate? The article came from the Nov 2009 Awake pages 26-29 "Healthy Mothers, Healthy Babies"
The WTBTS quotes from the UN Chronicle over and over, then they quote the WHO (World Health Organization)
@1914watcher For me, the UN was one of the deal breakers. I cannot comprehend why more don't have issue with it. No part of it means, no part. JWs must shun family? Don't even look at them. Yet the Wild Beast? It was just a library card, it was this or that lame and proven a lie excuse. Talking with the CO about it, my jaw really spent most of the time on the floor. I couldn't believe the lame excuses. There is NO excuse, none, zip, etc.
@Danmera When I end up having a meeting with the elders I'm recording it. I'll do like you and have them meet me at my house. I can have anything I want in my house. There won't be any of this blue room crap. My terms, not theirs. I was ticked that they brought this article to my wife, but after I read it..... It was from Jehovah! HAHAHAHA
@Danmera "“If YOU love me, YOU will observe my commandments; and I will request the Father and he will give YOU another helper to be with YOU forever" John 14:15,16
(John 15:10) If YOU observe my commandments, YOU will remain in my love, just as I have observed the commandments of the Father and remain in his love.
(James 1:22) However, become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning.
@Justice4vr Do not follow men, be on the watch for false prophets, test every inspired expression (REALLY test ever expression from those who claim not to be inspired).
That's odd - I've been very restrained in what I have said about the Society until now. I have not mentioned the many totally wrong prophesies, the teachings that have changed back and forth, the hushed-up paedophilia, the split families, riven apart, not because of sin or immoral behaviour, but because of slightly differing views of the bible in non essential matters. I haven't mentioned any of those things at all. Look back over my comments please, did I mention those things?
@The1hope4all you mentioned in regards to the JW that came to speak with you that you spoke about the WTs history and all I said was that we should not focus on that stuff in the past but the present just as we dont point out the many massacres you trinitarians are responsible for.
@Justice4r Without meeting you it's difficult to tell what kind of person you are. I expect I would find you to be a pleasant person. However, I've only got these comments to go on, and judging on those alone, I'm afraid it is very unpleasant, what comes over. I'm sorry to see it seems like spiritual pride: We are OK, God loves us, and you are all murderers. Is that how you talk when you go door to door? It seems accusing, cold hearted and very proud. Sorry, but that's how it seems.
@The1hope4all not really no, but I took your comments before that to go over the line, you know with all the capitalizing of words and talking ill of my brotherhood.
@Justice4vr The lady wanted to use the "What the Bible really teaches" book, but we put it on one side, and asked the lady simply to talk about what was important to her out of the bible. We did that for about a year, and she did not say anything much about Jesus at all. Be very careful of anyone who draws the attention away from Jesus!
@The1hope4all Did you know we have many books dedicated to Jesus and one of them is called "The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived"? What did she say was important to her out of the bible?
@Justice4vr She spoke quite a bit about the Trinity, about family life, not fighting in wars, and we discussed the history of the society with her, from the time of Russell and Rutherford etc... She was very confident in her delivery, until she got up to talking about 1914, when she massively lost confidence (despite being a Witness for 30 years) and had to get an elder in to present this. We then wrote a polite letter, saying that the whole things was very unconvincing and we parted
@The1hope4all You know some people will speak to you about being able to walk again, being able to see their loves ones, some will say the most important thing is Gods name being cleansed of all lies. They all know its only possible because God had a plan, a plan to send his son to die for all and redeem our relationship. So you should not down play someones spirituality based on a few hours of dialogue. Maybe speak about your history next time and how your brothers murdered many catholics.
@Justice4vr You people always want to focus on the past. If you were in Moses' time youd speak about how he murdered an egyptian man. Youd speak about how King David slept with someones wife and murdered her husband. Youd point at mary magdalene and speak of her past immorality. Thats how you people are. I can speak of the many massacres you trinitarians are tainted with and the blood youve spilled in Hiroshima, nagasaki and now in Iraq.
@Justice4vr Whoa hang on here. You said, "Maybe speak about your history next time and how your brothers murdered many catholics." So history would be the past yes? Then you say, "You people always want to focus on the past."
Are you saying that check the history of any organization but yours? What are you saying here? I know in my OWN study of the history of my OWN religion, it fell apart. Turns out the "truth" didn't hold up to scrutiny, is that why we are not suppose to "focus on the past?"
@Danmera "So we shouldn't look at the past mistakes of the churches?"
It is my opinion that such action would be a waste of time. It is more important to focus on the here and now, not on what was. You can argue that we celebrated Christmas in our past, but we dont NOW, and THAT is what is important. Again, its just my opinion, but do what you want.
remember remember the 5th of november...wow the watchtower is the NWO of religion! im amazed i really am...ok lets put our cards on the table once and for all...if your "GOD"s chosen people...then explain why you have so many false teachings or extra-biblical beliefs! 1914,1925,1975, the reason why you dont partake of the bread and wine even though the bible says too,jesus being michael the archangel??? WHY DO YOU DENY JESUS BEING THE ALPHA AND OMEGA? make your move...
mikey85love 1 month ago
JW's say they are not inspired, claiming they are just "spirit directed." But they fail to understand that words do in fact mean things, and that by definition, inspired MEANS spirit directed. - They also claim they have THE truth....despite the fact that their "truth" changes all the time, and from year to year....their truth of today, (from God) becoming mistakes tomorrow. - So, how can they be SO sure they have the "truth" today?
GungHo1032 1 month ago
@Justice4vr "but lord, didn't we do good works in your name and expel demons in your name?" Would that appear as love? Is love unconditional? See, if I love you, you can believe whatever religion you want to and we're still cool. All that love you're talking that JWs have is on the condition that you conform to a set of beliefs. Then if you look at the predictions that didn't come to pass and call them on it, THEY label YOU. Maybe I missed something but what's so loving about that?
Jevachi 1 month ago
Justice, I really don't think it's fruit your full of?
1914watcher 1 month ago
Justice, how about how your organization kills children, hides pedophiles and breaks up families?
1914watcher 1 month ago
@1914watcher which one do you want to speak of first?
Justice4vr 1 month ago
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@Justice4vr Let's start with the Watchtower Jesus that returned in 1914. Everything that you claim has to be backed up with this date. If there is no 1914 then you have nothing but fairytale. I find it humorous that you said; "One should scrutinize the present system not the past system." Excellent reasoning. What's going on with Traralgon congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses in Australia RIGHT now? It looks like the "True Christians" deliberately broke the laws of the land?
1914watcher 1 month ago
@Justice4vr You talked about all the publications that the watchtower has to offer? Here is one of my favorites.
"They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such 'Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago."(Watchtower, 8/15/81) So that means the Trinity,Deity and bodily resurrection are bible teachings?
1914watcher 1 month ago 3
Justice, the only thing important to jw's is 1914.
1914watcher 1 month ago
Isn't it strange JWs say their ENEMY is "Christendom" .....I do not know what JW's think it is but Christendom is "Christ's Kingdom"!.....So they are saying Christ's Kingdom is the ENEMY?
sikovit 1 month ago 5
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@sikovit "So they are saying Christ's Kingdom is the ENEMY?" Again, 40 yrs being a JW and youre asking this question? lol Just as I thought, more like 40 yrs as an empty shell and seat warmer at the hall. That term is used by us for the whole body of those that claim to know Christ including Mormons, Catholics and all the many sects. The Kingdom of God and his Christ is NOT the enemy. Whats next? The WT ties their shoe laces differently than everyone else? lol
Justice4vr 1 month ago
Where in the Bible does it say, "do as I say, not as I do." I can't seem to find it. Is it in Matt 28:21?
pretoshohmoofc 1 month ago 2
@pretoshohmoofc Yeah.... I can't find that one either.
21crosscheck21 1 month ago
Isn't it funny how the Society's past comes back to haunt them. Either in the literature they print or in the things they bury. When this stuff was disposed of I guess the thinking was that the Paradise would be here in a few years so it wouldn't matter. Guess they should have had this CO give this talk at morning worship that day.
earnestlyseeking 1 month ago
@earnestlyseeking imaging if you published all your teachings? hmm I wonder how many things would come back to haunt you. Oh but thats different huh?
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr In fact is is different. I'm not proclaiming that I have "The truth" and that one needs to "be in association" with me. Nor am I claiming that one has to believe in me for salvation. The Bibles message, the way I read, is Follow Christ, not man. I somehow don't believe that's going to come back to haunt me.
earnestlyseeking 1 month ago 3
@earnestlyseeking I don't know Dan. Jesus mentioned the Watchtower and their publications so many times. All those Bethel tours and all that time he spent doing quick build kingdom halls. :')
21crosscheck21 1 month ago
@earnestlyseeking friend youre not proclaiming to have the "truth", then why should I even believe your comment at all? Question, do you need to be "in association" with a congregation if you have one available to be saved? Oh and since the bibles message is "follow the Christ", then you must be, according to Hebrews 13:17, submissive to men, to those taking the lead.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr It obvious you not going to believe my comments or anyone else s. The problem is you don't even believe your own organization. If you did you would apply the counsel to not have anything to do with "apostates". Didn't the 7-11 Wat. say you should avoid us like someone with a disease? Does that mean everyone but you? I'm an "apostate" according to your religion, but yet you seem comfortable posting messages to me. So Are you being submissive to those taking the lead?
earnestlyseeking 1 month ago 2
@earnestlyseeking "The problem is you don't even believe your own organization. If you did you would apply the counsel to not have anything to do with "apostates""
Oh lol you mean 2 John 9-11? Yes buddy, thats a bible teaching not some rule the organization came up with? Why do you people always miss that. Go blame God, I dare you.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr As I've said before. When John penned those words, and when he said "If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching," I highly doubt he had the teachings of the modern day organization in mind. You know, like 1914. Yet if a JW today chooses not to believe in 1914 he gets tossed out as an "apostate". 1914 is a real true apostate teaching. Because it's not in the Bible. Jesus is God, that is in the Bible. nuff said.
earnestlyseeking 1 month ago
@earnestlyseeking
1. " I highly doubt he had the teachings of the modern day organization in mind" lol you dont sound too convinced. What if they DO believe in Jesus, but believe... Jesus is one of three Gods like the Mormons and were out and about teaching it to your brothers? Would you not apply this verse to them? What about Romans 16:17 regarding those causings any sort of "divisions" in the congregation, what does it say we must do with them? Here lets put you to the test:
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@earnestlyseeking
2. Youre a pastor of your congregation, some dude that goes to your church is teaching your fellow brothers the 1914 doctrine and some them believe this guy, but some dont. You speak to this guy and realize he WONT stop teaching this to your brothers. You are the pastor of those poor defenseless sheep, what do you?
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr What any good pastor would do in this situation is say "You can promote whatever you want, but as for us, we are going to stick to Gods word". If enough people in the congregation started believing in 1914 based on the renegade members teaching, then they could vote to have the pastor removed and replaced with one teaching 1914. Probably never would happen tho, because 1914 is an apostate teaching. Most people would agree with that, except for jws of course, :)
earnestlyseeking 1 month ago
@earnestlyseeking lol wait, wait. Youre saying you would just LET this "wolf in sheeps clothing" contaminate or kill your sheep? Dude youre a horrible pastor. You are the pastor and you already see others believing this guys "lies" and yet you do nothing to protect your flock? How many people have to fall for this guys "lies" until you do something for the rest of the flock? According to you: until they vote me out? lol. Read the bible my friend.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr In John chapter 10 Jesus said his sheep don't listen to the voice of strangers. So a true Christian minister doesn't have to worry excessively about the flock being led astray. Jesus is the shepherd the pastor is just an assistant to the shepherd. This highlights the big problem with the JW organization. They try to take the place of the Shepherd. They want people to follow them and many do. Who are you following?
earnestlyseeking 1 month ago
@earnestlyseeking Wow you either have not read the bible or are trying too hard to recover from your earlier comment. According to your interpretation of John Ch 10, there is no need for pastors or warnings of any kind because in the end Jesus' sheep dont listen to strangers anyway. Why would Jesus warn us of this and that, of false Christs and false Prophets if in the end his true sheep wouldnt listen to them anyway? There would be no point in warning his disciples.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@earnestlyseeking "Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. --->Be SHEPHERDS <---- of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood." Acts 20:28 NIV
Did you notice the part where it says "Keep Watch over... all the flock"? The "JW organization" as you call it is not taking the place of THE shepherd, but actually shepherding his flock they way he wants us to.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@earnestlyseeking Who am I following? The true Jesus Christ! Yes "The Son of God", not "God the Son". The one that teaches us to work hard, unlike you who lazy off and try to justify it with scripture. This actually highlights the huge problem with false Christians like you who try to put down a group of people for actually taking care of their flock. BTW, you sir are the FIRST to tell me that he would allow someone to continue to spread lies in his own church.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr You talk like you are the authority of me. I happen to know that if you are one of JWs you are NOT following Christ. Because like all good JWs, you do all that the Society teaches, ...oh ...wait a minute scratch that. I forgot you are deliberately disobeying them by continuing to talk to me. And for your information, I don't have a church. Why don't you start obeying that organization you are following. Or drop them and surrender yourself totally to Christ.
earnestlyseeking 1 month ago
@earnestlyseeking Sir im just slaming you with scripture and common sense. You say you dont have a church? the Whole thing was hypothetical remember? Sir we belong to Christ and you dont because if you did, you would be a part of his body that which is; the Congregation. I made it clear to you that ignoring apostates is a bible teaching, take it up with God. No, not the Trinity, but Jehovah.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr 1914 in scripture? Is "common sense" to treat family like they don't exist? Was it "common sense" that Charles Russel taught till his death that Jesus had invisibly returned in 1874? You aren't practicing what you preach in regard to "ignoring apostates" or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Better go back to your "spiritual paradise" (AKA cult) before you get caught and halled into the back room for dis-obeying the "slave"
earnestlyseeking 1 month ago
@earnestlyseeking Werent we talking about those that cause divisions and what should be done with them? Thats the common sense I mentioned, please stay with me. I do practice what the bible says about avoiding apostates, but I dont know that youre an apostate, I dont know your history. So what do i do? I TRY to show them the truth and if they dont want to listen and keep spreading lies then I apply the scripture to them. Instead of focusing on the point youre trying to get me to leave. sad
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@earnestlyseeking I highly doubt youre "earnestly seeking" anything at all. Youre simply a disgruntled ex JW from what it appears who has no idea what is trully in the bible. Youve been destroyed with scripture and common sense REGARDING those that teach different and cause divisions and youre upset and instead of taking advantage that Im here trying to reason with you, you want to get me to stop talking to you lol. Swallow your pride, its about Jesus NOT you.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr Congratulations you finally say something useful. It is about Jesus not me, or you, or your precious organization. Nuff said
earnestlyseeking 1 month ago
@earnestlyseeking Oh and it sounded to me like you just called your own teachings the "voice of Jesus Christ" hmm?
Justice4vr 1 month ago
I pray that all of my JW brothers and sisters wake up and begin to serve "The Real Jesus"....not Abaddon/Appollyon the destroyer that the WT says IS Christ!
sikovit 1 month ago
@sikovit friend if you only knew that you are the brainwashed one.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr I was a JW for 40 years......I saw the brainwashing first hand with the WT's "Obviously's" and "Logically's".....Not only do I have and studied all the Wt's publications but have studied books and history that YOU as a JW are NOT allowed to even read!....So, How is it I am brain washed...I do NOT follow "MEN" who "channel" the Holy Spirit to tell me what it says!...YOU as a JW are being set up to serve the AntiChrist!...Please Be AWAKE!...Because the Wt is asleep!
sikovit 1 month ago
@sikovit I was a JW for BLAH BLAH years. You knew theres JWs that have only been JWs for 5 yrs that have more experience than people like you who are always claiming to have been a JW for 40 or 50 yrs. Time is nothing, experience is everything. You ARE brainwashed, Ill show you: Where is the truth?
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr THE TRUTH?...You as a JW are serving "the angel of the bottomless pit". Do the research!...You do a satanic Black Mass every nisan 14....YOU pass the blood and flesh that My savior meant "for all" and Deny the sacrifice! Read John 6!...Oh that's right JW's only read what the WT says the Bible says..I will be praying that YHWH will open your closed eyes...You man follower!
sikovit 1 month ago
@sikovit Typical. I asked sikovit to show me THE truth and instead of doing that, he goes on to show me why ONE religion is not the truth. Another thing is you mention the questions asked by JWs during baptism...ok..WHATS YOUR POINT? Then you mention a verse that not only the NWT omits but also the NIV, the ESV, the NLT along with many other translations, but wait, the NWT is the corrupt one right? lol. Show me where I can find THE truth, I want a real answer next time... You Satan follower
Justice4vr 1 month ago
Stephen Kings "The Stand" pretty much sums up the JW mindset as to what the Earth will be like post Armageddon. Most applicable is the part where the survivors have to clean up Boulder, Co, removing dead bodies, restoring power, selecting the nicest houses and cars for themselves. LOL
Medewtysenu 1 month ago
About time WatchTower started the clean up, Armageddon has come and gone already.
SpecialPioneerSmerf 1 month ago
November?
EastGateShut 1 month ago
@EastGateShut November 5, is a Vast Apostate Army date. It is a date that comes from a fictional character who fought the machine, fought against propaganda, dictatorship, etc. Many ex-cult members, and others, have adopted some of the symbolisms of this fictional character, because we are fighting for the same thing, him in a story, us in real life.
Danmera 1 month ago
@Danmera hey danmera remember the time when you couldnt point out the present day disciples commanded in Matthew 28:18-20 at all, funny stuff eh?
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr Yup, too bad the WT even fails at that one. They do not baptize in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit. Nope JWs get baptized in the name of the father, the son, and the WT organization. Can't even do that one. So much for not going beyond what is written.
Danmera 1 month ago
@Danmera Oh yes we do. We just dont "say it" at the moment of baptism since the bible doesnt say you have to "say it", you have to live it. We most definitely DO NOT baptize in the name of the WT org, whered you hear that, cmon, youre misrepresenting us.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr "The first question is:
On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
The second is:
Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?
Father, Son, Holy Spirit? or Father, Son, WT? hmm.
Danmera 1 month ago
@Danmera danmera, danmera, as you said these are "questions" not a baptismal formula. These questions have nothing to do with the formula found in Matt 28:19, thats exactly what all these people arent getting. These questions are not the BAPTISMAL FORMULA. Think about it, WITH ALL HONESTLY, just for a moment. The formula is not UTTERED at baptism (which is not even scriptural) its lived Danmera. Cmon wake up please.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr Where do the scriptures talk about this formula? That scripture is pretty darn clear. I say it again, the WT fails at even that scripture. You can tell yourself whatever you want, but it's very clear.
Danmera 1 month ago
@Danmera The 2 questions are not a formula, they are just two FINAL questions. Look, just try to be reasonable here, is there just ONE verse in the bible that says you must SAY those words found in Matthew 28:19 at baptism? Theres not. Only the trinitarians ritually utter the words, we live them.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr Matt 28:19 - baptize in the name of the father, the son, and the holy spirit. 1 Cor 4:6 - do not go beyond the things that are written.
WT. - Oh this is just a formula, yeah Jesus said that, but he didn’t really mean it, he meant it was only a suggestion.
Show me the scripture that says this is a suggested "formula". You can rationalize all you want, it doesn't change a thing. I no longer twist my head into circles trying to protect these wolves, but you keep trying.
Danmera 1 month ago
@Danmera As I said, we do baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the holy spirit. Show where it says it must be UTTERED....
Danmera its not suggested, its commanded. Im not saying its "suggested", my point is that the bible doesnt say it MUST be UTTERED.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr You need to review the questions again, you answer in the affirmative, that your baptism dedicates you to Jehovah, Jesus and the Watchtower Corporation, they do not follow the scriptures. Follow men? Not anymore.
Danmera 1 month ago
@Danmera "that your baptism dedicates you to Jehovah" Are you sure thats in Questions? Look at the question that YOU posted. Where does it say "your baptism dedicated you to Jehovah or the ORG"? It doesnt. We get baptized BECAUSE weve dedicated ourselves to Jehovah, not the other way around and our "baptism and dedication" IDENTIFY us as JWs. Just step back a bit and see the whole picture, cmon dont lie to yourself, have integrity. Look at the questions again.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr So where in Matt 28:19 does it spell all that out?
Danmera 1 month ago
@Danmera it doesnt "spell it out" because its not a baptismal formula. They are questions. I mean doesnt the baptizer want to know if the the guy getting baptized has REPENTED and DEDICATED themselves to Jehovah, and that their baptism AND dedication identify them as Christians that are now part of the congregation?
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr Bible: Baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19 Very clear, no argument.
You: But this means, but that means, but this means, words words words. You are arguing over words trying to make it work. It doesn't.
"Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers". 2 Tim 2:14.
Danmera 1 month ago
@Danmera Danmera Im all for 2 Tim 2:14, BELIEVE ME PLEASE. What Im trying to show you is that "baptize in the name..." does not mean "baptize UTTERING: In the name...". Im trying to help you and defend my family. Forget the darn "words" Im trying to help YOU! You know what Im saying makes sense, I know you do and as you see them accuse us of baptizing in the name of the WT, youre going to see how ridiculous they really are more and more. Be reasonable please.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr You ARE baptized in the name of the WT. You can argue all day long, this means this or that means that or you don't understand it's really just a "formula" but at the end of the day you are baptized in the name of MEN.
As I have said before, it is not just THIS issue, that proves they one of the false prophets. Bible says test every inspired expression, NOT inspired men, should be under even more scrutiny. THEY are YOUR salvation, you should scrutinize them, then you would see.
Danmera 1 month ago
@Danmera You know Ive broken it down for you on both the questions and the verse itself to help you see the truth using their own words. You on the other hand have twisted the questions to make it say what its not saying and when it comes to the verse, you want to add words to it as if it were saying you must utter certain words during baptism WHEN IT DOESNT SAY THAT. I dont care if there are many issues regarding them, Im focused on this one issue. Dont be afraid to accept this.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Danmera "" but at the end of the day you are baptized in the name of MEN.""" Amen
21crosscheck21 1 month ago
@Justice4vr JW's have two questions asked when getting baptized - you idiot!.One is scriptural.....the other is "in association with Jehovah's witnesses and the HOLY SPIRITED ORGANIZATION"..Maybe you should check you organization book!...Better yet if you have the guts Read Acts 8:37 and see "The Truth"...The truth is the NWT is corrupted and omits many scriptures. What do you have to say about that-fish?
sikovit 1 month ago
@Danmera Danmer when will you stop persecuting your King and your people?
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr Haha, The WT is not my King so no persecution here.
WT Nov. 15, 1963 "Execution of Divine Judgment upon False Religion" It is not a form of religious persecution for anyone to say and to show that another religion is false."
Seriously, once you stop twisting yourself into a pretzel to protect the men, it is undeniable just how false they are.
Danmera 1 month ago 2
@Justice4vr "" Danmer when will you stop persecuting your King and your people?""" Interesting how Danmeras reply to this silly comment was so damaging that you had to hit the spam button on the post. Nice try to attempt to hide the evidence and censor a reasonable response. However I don't allow that here.
21crosscheck21 1 month ago
@21crosscheck21 Would you look at that! the man who "is too busy" to answer my direct question (1 Question that Ive been waiting over 2 weeks to be answered) is now butting in, hmm. OH and NO, I didnt hit any "SPAM" button, not very Christian of you to be assuming that kind of thing. Im glad you dont allow that kind of stuff, but you should practice it yourself before saying that. Yes dont hide from a question with "Im too busy".
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr Between comments, pm's, phone calls emails etc. I receive well over 2000 a month. I answer as I have time and how I choose. What makes you more important then the others that I should drop them and answer you?
"Where is the "pointing them out" part?" I'll do it right now. You need to stop following men, repent and trust in Jesus.
21crosscheck21 1 month ago
@Justice4vr While you are waiting for 21crosscheck21 I have a question which I have often puzzled over. Who was the Faithful and Discreet Slave in relatively modern times, say, in the 1700s and early 1800s? I can quite understand historical records being difficult back in the first few centuries, C.E. but coming more up to date, there ought to be historical evidence of such a group exisiting, if it has been there in unbroken succession, since Pentecost.
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all I wasnt alive back then, neither is everything written in history books. what I do know is that your fellow Christian brothers back then burned "heretics" alive at the stake which probably means that those "heretics" that deny the divinity of Jesus Christ probably had to go underground. I also know that there was a great apostasy that crippled the Congregation for many years along with Constantines rule.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr You are referring to events much further back in history - you are right that written records are difficult during those times. I was talking about modern times, though - if there was a FADS in the 17 and 1800s, there ought to be plenty of written evidence for it, and they Russell would have been in close contact with them. The fact is, though, Russell was completely on his own. Who was the Slave immediately prior to Russell?
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all "Who was the Slave immediately prior to Russell?" I dont know who was the slave was back then, its not written anywhere that Ive seen. I do know the weeds overshadowed the wheat for a long time and the weeds are now beginning to shine. So, I do know who the slave is today.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr I'll repost it for her: Haha, The WT is not my King so no persecution here.
WT Nov. 15, 1963 "Execution of Divine Judgment upon False Religion" It is not a form of religious persecution for anyone to say and to show that another religion is false."
Seriously, once you stop twisting yourself into a pretzel to protect the men, it is undeniable just how false they are.
21crosscheck21 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@21crosscheck21 "WT Nov. 15, 1963 "Execution of Divine Judgment upon False Religion" It is not a form of religious persecution for anyone to say and to show that another religion is false."
Very true, the difference here is that apostates and the apostate fed people like you lie and twist a true religion. Thats persecution.
Sir will you answer my question or not.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@21crosscheck21 I asked 21crosscheck21 to point out the present day disciples that were commanded by Christ in Matthew 28:18-20 and instead of pointing them out to me, he stated "the present day disciples are those that have accepted the Gospel". Where is the "pointing them out" part?
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr What do you mean? Names, addresses and telephone numbers? People who have been born again, through repentance and belief in Jesus, and have entered into the New Covenant are scattered throughout the earth, in various churches, groups and fellowships. People who have been born again recognise one another as such, when they meet.
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all Yes give me contact information and dont forget a very important thing, those that you point out must "speak the same things" as you according to 1 Cor 1:10. There is only one truth and if you are disciples of Jesus, "teaching all his commandments" (Matt 28:18-20), then you all must be teaching the same things. Dont forget that the Catholics are "born again" as they claim, so are they a part of your worldwide congregation of God?
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr There has been, under the New Covenant, as under the old, a "falling away" and a breaking up of the ONE people of God into different groups and denominations and sects, even. The people of God, those born again, are divided and scattered throughout the world. There is no one single organisation which has the one complete unadultertaed truth, not even the Watchtower! Only when the Lord Jesus returns will all be restored and the wheat and tares sorted from one another.
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all "There is no one single organisation which has the one complete unadultertaed truth, not even the Watchtower!" But there are many organizations who go it WAY wrong like the Trinitarians. We are not talking about complete truth, we are talking about unity in Gods worldwide congregation of which you admitted there is no unity. There is a group of over 7 million who are united in their teaching by will and belief. Maybe you people arent united but we are.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr You see, what you Trinitarians do is throw your hands up and say we cant be united at all so were not even gonna try, were just gonna work the ministry completely oblivious of one another competing for church attendants on opposing sides of the street. And if our governments wanna fight each other for whatever reason they try to justify (US/Iraq war), well were just gonna have to bomb each other to pieces, because thats Christian love. hmmm?
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr We are going to be united, and we have to obey the command to be "At peace with all men" The Lord Jesus will return and restore all things, so I'm very confident. At the end of the day it's Jesus who saves us, not denominations or human organisations.
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all "Only Jesus can save" Agreed. So why are you and your bretheren collectively or together not obeying Jesus words in Matthew 28:18-20? Why does it take you people decades to knock on my door and bring me the Gospel? Why is another group of people which you people call a "cult" walking about the streets knocking on doors consistently in unity and in an organized manner, men, women, and children all "speaking the same thing"? Where are you and why are they here at my door step??
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr Someone who has truly been "born again" will be a witness for Jesus, as an individual and collectively, in local congregations. The local congregations here in my home town try to testify practically to the love of God through a great many activities, seeking to help various kinds of needy people, as well as preaching and bible teaching. Going "door to door" is only one method of many.
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all Jehovah makes it easy for you to find his people and you ignore it. Its clear who the present day disciples are according to Mathew 28:18-20. Anywhere you go, you will find my brothers and sisters teaching the same thing. So if you just want to ignore that, then let it be against your conscience.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr It's not people who have saved me, it's Jesus. I love Jesus, and try to live a life worthy of this. I have fellowship with other people who also love Jesus. My wife and I studied for about a year with a very nice lady from the Kingdom Hall, but the further we proceeded, the more discrepancies we discovered between Watchtower teachings and the bible. If there is a difference between what somebody teaches, and the Bible, it's safer to stick with the Bible. God bless you.
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all no one said people SAVE others. Did I say that? nope. Way to go on twisting my words. "its safer to stick with THE bible"??? Didnt know you read Ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Are you talking about the bible in your own that some dude who calls himself a scholar interpreted and translated according to HIS beliefs? How can it be "safer" to read some dudes interpreted translation?
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr Sorry about mis-understanding. You seemed to be implying that salvation was only possible through Jesus AND asscosiation with one particular group of believers, but I'm relieved to see that you don't think that after all. As for Bible translations, my preferred version is the American Standard Bible, which was also the preferred translation for the Bible Students and then the Jehovah's Witnesses for at least 70 years.
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all You know God sent Philip to preach and baptize the Ethiopian. God also uses his people to save people, we dont save anyone he does the saving. My point is that these people God is using to "save" other are easy to find wherever you go and they MUST be teaching the same thing. Tell me something, is your translation inspired meaning, did God inspire the translators of the ASB? If not, then your translation is not perfect, so how can you relly on some guys interpretation?
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr OK, point accepted,used as instruments by God to bring about his salvation. Which Bible translation do you prefer? Were the translators scholars, and were they anointed or non-anointed Witnesses? The Society has used the ASB for most of it's history, longer than the NWT, so it can't be all that bad, can it?
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all I like to use many different translations to get a better wider view of a certain verse. I mainly use the NWT because my fellow brothers publish it. It really doesnt matter to me who produced it, as long as its put to the test and it keeps its ground. What I do know is that you can get a NWT for free, but if you buy a ASB, their owners are making a profit. " you receive free, give free". No, the ASB is not all that bad, but its not perfect. Point: dont relly on a TRANSLATION.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr Glad to hear that you use different translations, but I'm a bit confused about your advice to not rely on any translation. Unless you are a Greek and Hebrew scholar, you don't have any choice, do you? I've got a New World Translation Greek Interlinear, so it's at least possible to check the translation against the Greek. The ASB is published, by the way, by the Lockman Foundation, which is a Not-For-Profit organisation.
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all Thats right you dont have a choice. Your trust should be placed, not on a translation, but upon on the fruit of Jesus disciples. Only one group of people on this planet have the fruits Jesus spoke about.
For example, the catholics read a translation of the bible and yet they pray to Mary!
The Mormons have their own translation of the old and new testament and yet they follow Joseph Smith. Look at the Jonestown people.
Love identifies his true disciples John 13:34,35
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr Forgive me for saying this, but you seem again, to be deflecting the rightful attention away from Jesus, the beginner and finisher of our faith, to a group of people, whoever it is you mean. The words of Jesus sum things up very well: "You search the scriptures because you think you will find life in them, but you refuse to come to me" Jesus also said "I AM the way, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE' My faith and hope is in Jesus and his finished work for me.
The1hope4all 1 month ago
1.
@The1hope4all No, thats not what Im trying to do, let me elaborate: It is these people that will preach the TRUE Jesus. EVERYONE has a bible isnt that true? The catholic, the JW, the Baptist, the Adventist etc, but they each come to you with a different teaching of who Jesus is. Let me just add that even reading a particular translation youre already in the teaching of its translator's religion. Heres a scenario:
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr I can't find the follow - on comment with the scenario - I'll have another look in the morning, my bed is calling me now!
The1hope4all 1 month ago
2
@The1hope4all If I ask you what is the Truth, you will say "Jesus is the Truth", but then I will ask you, who is this Jesus?
"Where am I to get this knowledge of Jesus? From your interpretation, the JW interpretation, the Adventist interpretation, the Catholic interpreation etc?"
You will say: "the bible" and I will say "which translation, the one translated by the catholics? the one translated by baptists, the one translated by the JWs etc?"
Justice4vr 1 month ago
Well, actually I don't really say, first and foremost, the Bible, although that is an invaluable help. Remember, Jesus rebuked those who thought they would find life in the scriptures, without coming directly to him for their spiritual life. Jesus himself, is the best place to get to know Jesus, through prayer, listening to him speaking to our hearts, allowing the Holy Spirit to form the nature and character of Jesus in our lives, becoming meek and humble, as he is.
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all Supposes I know nothing of Jesus or God. Directe me to the truth: what should I do first...?
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr Did you post this after my last response, the one that starts "I first commend you on your search etc..."? If so, then the same answer applies, also in these circumstances.
The1hope4all 1 month ago
3.
@The1hope4all No doubt there is BIASM in bible translations, everyone knows that. But you and I both know that there is only one Truth, one Jesus. So what you is you read many translations and you look at the undisputed agreed upon verses among all and you look at the fruit of those teachers to see if they have the fruit of the spirit and if they do then THEY must be the ones teaching the RIGHT JESUS.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
4.
@The1hope4all So yes, let me ask you: If I ask you for direction towards THE TRUTH, what will you say?
Justice4vr 1 month ago
I first commend you on your search for truth. I then point out that Jesus is the truth, and that you can come to Jesus through repenting of having lived your life without him, and - if you are ready to take that step - help you to pray a simple prayer, asking for forgiveness, and Jesus to be your Lord and Saviour from this point on. We ask also for the promised Holy Spirit to guide you/us into all truth, especially the truth about our need of grace, and the kindness of the Living God
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all "I then point out that Jesus is the truth"
Do you see what just happened here? You just became the referring agent towards Jesus for me. It took a person to tell me about Jesus. But we have a problem because some other guy is also referring me over to Jesus but this guy says Jesus is NOT God. Two agents, two different Jesus'. We examine the fruits of these agents, is that not reasonable?
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr The most important thing is that you, or whoever it might be, has a life changing encounter with the living God, through his Son, Jesus Christ, that you know your sins are forgiven, you have been born again by the Spirit of God. This is the miracle of new birth, direct from God. Are you sure the "other guy" is referring you over to Jesus? In my experience, JWs talk about Jesus in polite and respectful tones, but tend to refer people more towards the society.
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all " In my experience, JWs talk about Jesus in polite and respectful tones, but tend to refer people more towards the society."
Regardless of what you experience, the point Im trying to make is that theres you trinitarians and there JWs referring people to Jesus, but you people are divided among yourselves, you kill each other in war, you differ in teachings such as speaking in tongues, and I havent had you preach to me at home or on the street as Matt 28:18-20 says, but they do.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr I understand the point you are making, but the claim of Jesus to be "THE way, THE truth, and THE life" stands. God has shown us in his written word, that Jesus is the only way to God, and that through Jesus, we can experience all of the amazing things I have already listed. Until someone has had this experience, he is still "dead in his sins" and without the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit, completely unable to please God.
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all I agree that Jesus is the way, truth and life. My question to you is why do you have a different Jesus than I do? Why should I believe you preach the right one when you people are COMPLETELY divided amongst each other? Why should I believe your version of Jesus instead of the JWs who actually are united WORLDWIDE, are peaceful, dont go to war AT ALL, display love among each other and actually heed Jesus' command to preach in every nation HIS COMMANDMENTS? TELL ME PLEASE...
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr The main thing which must first be sorted out is: Have you had a life changing encounter with Jesus? Have you had your sins forgiven? Are you born again? Do you have God's Spirit dwelling in your heart? If the answer is "no", then no amount of looking at the skeletons in the Christian Church or the Societies' closets will help at all, I'm afraid, as you will not be able to enter God's Kingdom. This is the Watchtower tradgedy: proclaiming a Kingdom you will never enter...
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all Okay look: 1. You didnt answer my question. 2. How could someone have a "life changing encounter with Jesus" if that person has no knowledge of Jesus Christ? 3. JWs will indeed enter Gods Kingdom since it will be brought to earth; "thy kingdom come". 4. According to you, I can get a free copy of the bible version you have from the publishers since they are non profit?
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr 1. The story of the Phillipian jailer in Acts 16 is helpful - from his first hearing about Jesus, to being saved and baptised, less than 24 hours went by. 2. JWs will not enter God's Kingdom on the earth or anywhere else, as Jesus says that no-one who is not born again will enter God's Kingdom and 3: I don't know if you could get a free ASB Bible, try writing to the Lockman Foundation, otherwise I'd be most happy to supply you with one, if you can wait a couple of weeks.
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all 1. That has nothing to do with my question. The question was why should I believe your version of Jesus Christ as opposed to someone elses version when you dont even display the fruit they do? 2. You skipped this one 3. Jesus is speaking about the heavenly literal kingdom, thats why you see in verse 3 he says "see" the kingdom. 4. My point is, its not free. 5. What books did you study in that one year with JWs?
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr OK, I completely release you from any expectation at all to believe anything I say about Jesus or anything else, that's not important, you can completely ignore me if you like. What cannot be ignored, however, is the claims of Jesus on your life, and his offer of salvation and forgiveness. I'm not your teacher or pastor or anything. Jesus is Jesus, regardless of anyone's "version" of him.
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all 1. Well... you ARE commanded to "teach" me all of Jesus' commandments. And you may "release me from any expectation at all to believe anything you say about Jesus", but my question still stands: Why should I believe you over the JW who actually displays the fruits that your people cant"?
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr Yes, I am commanded that, but only if you are willing to hear. I'm certainly not going to force forgiveness, new life and blessing on anyone if they are not interested.
The1hope4all 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@The1hope4all "Yes, I am commanded that, but only if you are willing to hear."
I am here willing to hear, tell me why I should believe the Jesus of fruitless people like you trinitarians over the JWs who are full of fruit?
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr You don't know me, how are you able to tell how much spiritual fruit there is in my life? I'm glad the other Witnesses I've spoken too are not cold and judgmental like you are. You know NOTHING about the commitment I've made to my God, what it has cost me (like having to flee the country I used to live in) You have NO RIGHT AT ALL to speak about me in those terms. This conversation is over.
The1hope4all 1 month ago
...continued... I committed my life to God at an early age, I've been through highs and lows, lived amongst leprousy sufferers in Asia, helped homeless people in Germany, risked my life taking aid to far flung parts of the world. I don't normally mention this stuff, but you've provoked me. The Holy Spirit has been doing his work in my heart very patiently for a long time. In calling me "fruitless" you have insulted the work of God's Holy Spirit in me. Better get on your knees...
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all Sir simply helping the needy does not make you a Christian, but heeding all of Jesus commands does, you know, like actually preaching his commandments all over the planet. Dont speak like you know us JWs, we are Jesus' true disciples, so watch what you say. The Holy Spirit is not in you otherwise you wouldnt be working against it.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr Preaching the commandment of not following men? You mean like that one?
Danmera 1 month ago
@Danmera nope. the commandments of Jesus Christ. You know, like teaching other people the truth which you refuse to teach me.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr Ah, so you only follow some of the commandments. Got it.
What exactly did the apostles and disciples teach? Who were they talking about? Seriously. Did they teach "Follow the WT, Follow men. You can pick and chose?" What WAS their message? Who was the focus of their ministry, who is the focus of yours? This is a rhetorical question, I just ask that you be honest with yourself.
Danmera 1 month ago
@Danmera Matt 24:14... "This good news of kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth" thats one, "the good news", yes which includes the sacrifice of our King Jesus Christ.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr And who is the way to that kingdom? Men? or....
Really is it good news to have to be tied to the WT? To be tied to Men? To be tied to those who are no different than the rest of "christendom" whom they hate? There is a VERY good reason Jesus said "do not go after them" Jesus never was involved in child molestation scandals, or toxic dump scandals, or financial scandals, or in bed with the wild beast scandals. These MEN have you convinced, you need THEM, screw Jesus. He isn't for you.
Danmera 1 month ago
@Danmera Weve gone over this already Danmera, Jesus is the way! The congregation is the organized body of Christ. "involved in child molestation scandals, or toxic dump scandals, or financial scandals, or in bed with the wild beast scandals." Show me a congregation without scandal.... go ahead....
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr Jesus is not the way, for you. Don't you read your own literature? These MEN are the way for YOU.
Don't you think if this organization were really "spirit directed" it would be clean? You don't get to use that excuse. You can't claim to be God's "organization", and then claim to be no different than any other "organization". Doesn't quite work.
I believe they are spirit directed, but the Holy Spirit is not the spirit directing them.
Danmera 1 month ago
@Danmera "Don't you read your own literature? These MEN are the way for YOU."
no danmera, thats your biased understanding of the literature. Spirit directed does not equal perfection. Spirit inspiration does. Direction; you make the move, Inspiration: God moves you.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr So you are saying they ARE inspired?
As for biased understanding. Seriously? Are you really serious here?
It is a MAJOR theme of the literature. You can ONLY be saved thru them. THEY are your salvation. They alone. You are not fooling me, or anyone else who may be reading these comments. You are only fooling yourself. *head explodes*
Danmera 1 month ago
@Danmera put your head back together try to keep up and listen carefully: we are NOT inspired neither did I give you reason to believe that. AND there are two types of people on this planet, those that teach you a false Christ and those that teach you the True Christ and those that teach the True Christ are the JWs.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr Says who? The men in charge, the men who "claim" special enlightenment and direction even tho not inspired and imperfect proven false? The men who encourage you to only read their "understanding" of it, even tho it proves false time after time?
"don't check for yourself, that just shows lack of faith, and since we are your salvation, to show lack of faith in our understand, even tho it is most likely wrong, will risk your very salvation. Obey us to be saved" I'll have to pass on that
Danmera 1 month ago
@Danmera "says who?" the fruit danmera.. the FRUIT. for example John 13:34,35 where Jesus says that all will know that they are his disciples, IF they have love among themselves. Everyone else on this planet is killing themselves in war, EVERYONE even the so called "christians" and only the JWs arent, thats ONE fruit. Only the JWs are known for evangelizing WORLDWIDE in unity "speaking the same thing", thats another FRUIT. The fruit danmera, look for the fruit!!!!
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr The fruit? You mean like the background in pyramidology, spiritism, etc etc. Or the child molestation cover ups, or maybe the fornicating with the wild beast, or any other of the vile things they have done and are still doing. This is not about the rank and file, they command you to do this or that, then they hide behind YOUR fruits (see we go door to door, boasting how great you are), to do whatever they want. "do NOT go after them", very clear instruction here. Men=Not the way.
Danmera 1 month ago 2
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@Danmera if you look for the bad in anyone on earth you will find much, everyone is guilty of this, we are all sinners, we all make mistakes. What you should look for is the good in people like obediance to Christ. Imagine if God judged you by your mistakes, would you be to stand? Your hate ONLY allows you to see the negative, we ALL have something negative.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr Again, I am imperfect this is so very true, however I don't claim to be the way to salvation, I don't demand that millions obey me to be saved, I don't demand you believe I say without question because I what I say comes from God. That is why you don't follow MEN.
TEST means to look, to dig, to question, to research. And courage, to accept what you find. WT says, oh don't do that, just listen ONLY to us, we are your salvation.
Danmera 1 month ago
@Danmera Very true, Danmera - every one has to be tested according to the claims they make.
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@Danmera Speaking of the United Nations! You should see the article that the elders brought by on Sunday. It's pretty obvious that they didn't read what they left with my wife, especially if they are concerned that I might be an apostate? The article came from the Nov 2009 Awake pages 26-29 "Healthy Mothers, Healthy Babies"
The WTBTS quotes from the UN Chronicle over and over, then they quote the WHO (World Health Organization)
I guess breaking up is hard to do? =)
1914watcher 1 month ago
@1914watcher For me, the UN was one of the deal breakers. I cannot comprehend why more don't have issue with it. No part of it means, no part. JWs must shun family? Don't even look at them. Yet the Wild Beast? It was just a library card, it was this or that lame and proven a lie excuse. Talking with the CO about it, my jaw really spent most of the time on the floor. I couldn't believe the lame excuses. There is NO excuse, none, zip, etc.
Danmera 1 month ago
@Danmera When I end up having a meeting with the elders I'm recording it. I'll do like you and have them meet me at my house. I can have anything I want in my house. There won't be any of this blue room crap. My terms, not theirs. I was ticked that they brought this article to my wife, but after I read it..... It was from Jehovah! HAHAHAHA
1914watcher 1 month ago
@1914watcher What article did they bring to your wife?
21crosscheck21 1 month ago
@Danmera "“If YOU love me, YOU will observe my commandments; and I will request the Father and he will give YOU another helper to be with YOU forever" John 14:15,16
(John 15:10) If YOU observe my commandments, YOU will remain in my love, just as I have observed the commandments of the Father and remain in his love.
(James 1:22) However, become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr Do not follow men, be on the watch for false prophets, test every inspired expression (REALLY test ever expression from those who claim not to be inspired).
Danmera 1 month ago
That's odd - I've been very restrained in what I have said about the Society until now. I have not mentioned the many totally wrong prophesies, the teachings that have changed back and forth, the hushed-up paedophilia, the split families, riven apart, not because of sin or immoral behaviour, but because of slightly differing views of the bible in non essential matters. I haven't mentioned any of those things at all. Look back over my comments please, did I mention those things?
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all you mentioned in regards to the JW that came to speak with you that you spoke about the WTs history and all I said was that we should not focus on that stuff in the past but the present just as we dont point out the many massacres you trinitarians are responsible for.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4r Without meeting you it's difficult to tell what kind of person you are. I expect I would find you to be a pleasant person. However, I've only got these comments to go on, and judging on those alone, I'm afraid it is very unpleasant, what comes over. I'm sorry to see it seems like spiritual pride: We are OK, God loves us, and you are all murderers. Is that how you talk when you go door to door? It seems accusing, cold hearted and very proud. Sorry, but that's how it seems.
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all not really no, but I took your comments before that to go over the line, you know with all the capitalizing of words and talking ill of my brotherhood.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr OK, well let's just both calm down a bit then shall we? Otherwise we're going to get high blood pressure and stomach ulcers!
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all I dont mind what you say, I just come right back at ya.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr The lady wanted to use the "What the Bible really teaches" book, but we put it on one side, and asked the lady simply to talk about what was important to her out of the bible. We did that for about a year, and she did not say anything much about Jesus at all. Be very careful of anyone who draws the attention away from Jesus!
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all Did you know we have many books dedicated to Jesus and one of them is called "The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived"? What did she say was important to her out of the bible?
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr She spoke quite a bit about the Trinity, about family life, not fighting in wars, and we discussed the history of the society with her, from the time of Russell and Rutherford etc... She was very confident in her delivery, until she got up to talking about 1914, when she massively lost confidence (despite being a Witness for 30 years) and had to get an elder in to present this. We then wrote a polite letter, saying that the whole things was very unconvincing and we parted
The1hope4all 1 month ago
@The1hope4all You know some people will speak to you about being able to walk again, being able to see their loves ones, some will say the most important thing is Gods name being cleansed of all lies. They all know its only possible because God had a plan, a plan to send his son to die for all and redeem our relationship. So you should not down play someones spirituality based on a few hours of dialogue. Maybe speak about your history next time and how your brothers murdered many catholics.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr You people always want to focus on the past. If you were in Moses' time youd speak about how he murdered an egyptian man. Youd speak about how King David slept with someones wife and murdered her husband. Youd point at mary magdalene and speak of her past immorality. Thats how you people are. I can speak of the many massacres you trinitarians are tainted with and the blood youve spilled in Hiroshima, nagasaki and now in Iraq.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr Whoa hang on here. You said, "Maybe speak about your history next time and how your brothers murdered many catholics." So history would be the past yes? Then you say, "You people always want to focus on the past."
Are you saying that check the history of any organization but yours? What are you saying here? I know in my OWN study of the history of my OWN religion, it fell apart. Turns out the "truth" didn't hold up to scrutiny, is that why we are not suppose to "focus on the past?"
Danmera 1 month ago
@Danmera Danmera, slow down there. I was being sarcastic. One should scrutinize the present system not the past system.
Justice4vr 1 month ago
@Justice4vr So we shouldn't look at the past mistakes of the churches?
Danmera 1 month ago
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@Danmera "So we shouldn't look at the past mistakes of the churches?"
It is my opinion that such action would be a waste of time. It is more important to focus on the here and now, not on what was. You can argue that we celebrated Christmas in our past, but we dont NOW, and THAT is what is important. Again, its just my opinion, but do what you want.
Justice4vr 1 month ago