1982 Sermon by Francis Schaeffer - Part 1

[krane121]

this was taped in 1982? seems about right. america is usually about fifty or sixty years behind the rest of the world. this was taken up by the likes of ts eliot and chesterton against babbitt in a much more sophisticated and convincing way in the 1920's.

[GraceAboundedMore]

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

[GraceAboundedMore]

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

[ralcock]

this is solid material. explains much about how the world has developed into the way it is now. forget focusing on internet//facebook/gen y/gen iy/iphones. our post-modern humanistic way of life is simply where it is derived!

[ChiefClickClack]

@GodKillerAtheist How is someone that cannot even feed themselves well adapted to their environment? Maybe you over-looked the fact that if someone doesn't feed them and give them water then they're going to die in a matter of days.

[GodKillerAtheist]

@ChiefClickClack

"I'm literally talking about people who cannot take care of themselves"

As I stated before that doesn't matter since their genes are all that matter.

"so what is your solution to these people: Should the government take care of them?" Currently there are many new therapies for genetic disorders. Killing people because you feel they are physically and mentally broken isn't a valid reason to remove them from the gene pool. You just don't understand natural selection.

[ChiefClickClack]

@GodKillerAtheist Yeah, I guess you're right, I just don't understand natural selection, maybe someone as smart as you can Learn it to me someday.............What has me scratching my head is that new therapies for genetic disorders doesn't sound very "Natural".

[VictorLepanto]

I am so glad he didn't live to see what his son is doing. Not the he is ignorant of what his son is doing. I just hope such things can not diminish our joy in glory.

[vico100]

@VictorLepanto Agreed

[GodKillerAtheist]

@ChiefClickClack I don't think that murdering 10million jews was good for society You're just trying to demonize me because you really have no argument.

Hitler had a flawed sense of eugenics. Eugenics is not evolution it's not natural selection. somehow you're confusing Natural selection with a failed view on eugenics.. I thought you passed kindergarten next time instead of viciously trying to insult me look up some facts that actually defend your argument so you don't fail so hard next time.

[ChiefClickClack]

@GodKillerAtheist Hitler killed off all the unfit people by the millions and he killed of the Jews because he thought they were and inferior "ape-like" race..........this is just out of the history books........but your worldview has no foundation to say it was Right or Wrong

[GodKillerAtheist]

@ChiefClickClack "you have/ no foundation or basis to make such judgements with your worldview?" You don't even know what my world view is. You assume based on the fact that I'm not in your cult. let me tell you, I use subjective morality. I can say that it is morally wrong to enslave, commit incest, rape and racism like you because I don't have distorted evil version of morality, so I don't have to let my child starve to death because I'm afraid of stealing food for them to survive.

[GodKillerAtheist]

@ChiefClickClack "so objective morality is immoral?" Yes Goal based morality is immoral. You have a Goal and you will do anything to achieve that goal..rape, murder, kill, destroy. Why did the Muslims fly airplanes into the twin towers because of a goal of their moral code. Why would you let your child starve to death instead of stealing food? Why would you tell the Nazis you were hiding Jews instead of lying and saving their lives? Because you are following your objective immoral code.

[TheHistoryguy10]

@GodKillerAtheist You don't have to steal food to feed your child. You could work, earn money and feed your child, or you could simply ask someone to give you food for your child. You know, people do these sort of things all the time. Why should you steal from the mouth of some else's child to feed yours? I believe that you know what is right and what is wrong, whatever your worldview may be.

[GodKillerAtheist]

@TheHistoryguy10 "You don't have to steal food to feed your child. You could work"

Thats not the situation and I'm not talking about my child I'm talking about a hypothetical situation that shows the immorality of your false sense of morality. either you steal or your child dies End of subject..by the bad morals of your cult stealing food for your child is immoral.

" I believe that you know what is right and what is wrong"

yes because I have real subjective morals unlike your cult.

[TheHistoryguy10]

@GodKillerAtheist Whether it is hypothetical or not, it still shows what is in your heart and mind, or at least hints at it. Now, when I was younger, I stole a few things from other people, including money from my mother's purse. When I look back on this I know that it was wrong, not because I am applying Christian principles, but because I had to do it in hiding and kept it a secret. Now, I know that you cannnot live consistently with subjective morals. Here is why,.....

[GodKillerAtheist]

@TheHistoryguy10 "Whether it is hypothetical or not, it still shows what is in your heart and mind'

No it shows how immoral your cult is

" I stole a few things from other people, including money from my mother's purse. When I look back on this I know that it was wrong"

and it was because you had no good reason to steal besides greed.

[TheHistoryguy10]

@GodKillerAtheist Oh, so if someone has a good enough reason to steal then it is okay? Let's imagine that someone saw you with your computer at a coffee shop and decided to steal it while you were in the bathroom. His reason was that he needed it to type up his college papers. Sounds like a good enough reason for me, what about you?

[TheHistoryguy10]

@GodKillerAtheist if you had worked really hard, and saved up money to buy a car that was worth $5000, and you bought it, this would be a good thing. Now, if I see your car and take it because I need a car to get to work and back and the grocery store this would be okay. According to your standard I am within my right to do so because I need if for a specific purpose. No matter what the circumstance moral relativism can be applied.

[TheHistoryguy10]

@GodKillerAtheist If we apply your standard, all you can really do is throw up your hands and say "that is life." Remember, subjective morals or moral relativism remains the standard no matter what! And this can be applied to anything, including stealing for your child or stealing a car. THis form of thinking is hedonistic because it operates on the idea that "what is, is right." However, this creates a dilemma, a dilemma that cannot be overlooked. Not even society can live with this.

[GodKillerAtheist]

@TheHistoryguy10 " because it operates on the idea that "what is, is right." However, this creates a dilemma, a dilemma that cannot be overlooked. Not even society can live with this. "

and yet it has and does.. many cultures use subjective morals. The only ones who have a prison population almost equal to the population use flawed objective morality. Where their Goal is destroying this planet and bringing back their messiah with the fire of a nuclear cloud. I know this, I was a Christian

[TheHistoryguy10]

@GodKillerAtheist I will ignore the peculiar stabs you made about my position. But I will say that I find that you have a lot in common with other YouTubers. Many people here choose to not have respect for the person they are having a conversation with on YouTube. This is true because it is not a face to face conversation, but if it was, it would be different I'm sure. This happens especially when people have opposing views on a topic. But none the less, here I go...

[GodKillerAtheist]

@TheHistoryguy10 "Many people here choose to not have respect for the person they are having a conversation with on YouTube"

Well then quit being rude and address the topic instead of attacking me.

[TheHistoryguy10]

@GodKillerAtheist Now, when we are discussing morals, we need to be serious about the reality of “morals.” Please do not take offense, but I find your position completely irrational because you cannot live consistently with it. I hope you read my computer example I submitted earlier to understand how false your position is. Now, let us pretend that the Bible or the Judeo-Christian worldview does not exist, or for that matter any moral standard.

[GodKillerAtheist]

@TheHistoryguy10 "I find your position completely irrational because you cannot live consistently with it" People have lived for thousands of years using subjective morals in what you may call a perfect society. So the only thing irrational is your misunderstanding of subjective morality.

"I hope you read my computer example I submitted earlier to understand how false your position is"

Yes I did. Did you read my post that totally refuted it? guess not.

[TheHistoryguy10]

@GodKillerAtheist It can be said with complete confidence that nobody has ever discovered a way of having real “morals” without a moral absolute. If there is no moral absolute, we are left with hedonism (doing what I like or your subjective morals can be placed there) or some form of the social contract theory (what is best for society as a whole is right). However, neither of these corresponds to the moral motions that men have.

[GodKillerAtheist]

@TheHistoryguy10 See the problem is you keep confusing Anarchy with objective morals you keep ignoring that laws still exist. If I stole from you regardless of your delusion of hell there still would be a legal concern. If I stole a laptop to do my homework I'd be arrested for theft. Tell me is it moral to let a child die or steal to feed it? SUBJECTIVE MORALITY REQUIRES THE INTELLIGENCE TO WEIGH THE CONSEQUENCES. Kill the child or go to jail? Use another laptop for your homework or Go to jail?

[TheHistoryguy10]

@GodKillerAtheist Talk to people long enough and deeply enough and you will find that they consider some things “really” right and some things are “really” wrong. Without absolutes, morals as morals cease to exist, and men starting from themselves are unable to produce absolutes they need. Now, in order to have "real" absolutes in place, the system we exist and live in has to be an open system. I will use Schaeffer's definition:

[GodKillerAtheist]

@TheHistoryguy10 You are totally missing the point you have no clue what objective morality is. You want to paint it as Hedonism / Anarchy when it has been used for Thousands of years successfully. Its even used today because I've asked these questions to other people and they all say STEAL FOOD FOR THE STARVING CHILD! Christians are the ONLY ones who will let the child die or change the topic 12 times or avoid the question or rewrite the question YOU are simply PROVING THIS FACT!

[TheHistoryguy10]

@GodKillerAtheist Absolutes are not possible if you hold the presupposition of the uniformity of natural causes in a closed system (Schaeffer's). Now, a closed system infers that only the cosmos exists and nothing from the outside can affect or influence they way things occur inside the system. Therefore, I go back to the philosophical position, that "what is, is right." In a closed system there is nothing telling us how to live. Why should society or another person tell you or me how to live?

[GodKillerAtheist]

@TheHistoryguy10 "Why should society /tell /how to live?"

Society doesn't tell anyone anything but for it to survive it must progress. Normally something becomes immoral when it stops progression. Such as murder, Lying, war, theft.

The problem is you can't always use dogmas to judge morality. a war could save more lives then are lost. A lie could save a life. A murder may kill a tyrant. And a theft may feed a starving child. The fact that I can list these proves the immorality of the bible.

[TheHistoryguy10]

@GodKillerAtheist And if nothing can tell us how to live, then we are left with what you call subjective morals or what I call hedonism. If we want "real" absolute morals, which states that something is really right and something is really wrong then the system requires that it is open. What I mean is, that for something to affect or influence the happenings in the cosmos, it has to be bigger. I believe you know what I am getting at, but for some reason I believe you will not agree. Best wishes.

[GodKillerAtheist]

@TheHistoryguy10 Again your copied and pasted point is invalid and I've shown you plenty of reasons why. subjective morals are more moral than objective morals of the bible there is just no way around it sorry if you just can't understand.

[GodKillerAtheist]

@TheHistoryguy10 "then we are left with what you call subjective morals or what I call hedonism"

and you can call it cheese whiz because it's obvious you don't understand what you're talking about.

[TheHistoryguy10]

@GodKillerAtheist Now here is where "fairness" comes in. I know that I would find it unfair for someone to take food from my child to feed theirs or steal my car for thier own use. You don't even have to be a Christian to understand this principle. THis is why I say you cannot live consistantly with this standard. No one can! You can live as hedonistic as you want, but at some point someone will oppose the way you live. If you were the only one on a deserted island you could live hedonistically.

[GodKillerAtheist]

@TheHistoryguy10 "Now here is where "fairness" comes in. I know that I would find it unfair for someone to take food from my child to feed theirs or steal my car for thier own use."

Who ever said life is fair? Again you are projecting your delusion on your morality. instead of sharing some of your childs food with another starving child you will kill them because you feel it's unfair for your child. See how immoral your failed morality really is? no you can't your brainwashed and insane.

[TheHistoryguy10]

@GodKillerAtheist However, once someone joins you on the island you can no longer live by the standard of subjective morals. At some point you will have to have inter-personal relations with that person. Think of coming to a narrow bridge on that island and you both want to cross the river beneth at the same time. This is not possible. Either one of you goes first, or one pushes the other off. And now we get into politics.

[GodKillerAtheist]

@TheHistoryguy10 "At some point you will have to have inter-personal relations with that person"

Humanity works better in groups. Your problem is you have a very selfish and distorted view of reality.

" bridge on that island and you both want to cross the river beneth at the same time"

If you're so immature and selfish then you will never cross. This is your problem you expect people to be childish and selfish like you. when most humans have a humanistic and altruistic nature. unlike you

[TheHistoryguy10]

@GodKillerAtheist These people have to come to an agreement as to how to live on the island together. I hope this helps, and thank you for your response.

[GodKillerAtheist]

@TheHistoryguy10 yes it helps show me that Christians only believe for selfish reasons because they are scared of some delusion of hell. They can lie cheat and steal because you have no morality as a Christian not even objective morals. You only have to believe that Jesus died for your sins...sad. I'm so glad I escaped your death cult of lies. honestly it was the BEST thing I ever did in my entire life even more so then quitting smoking. I can never regret opening my eyes to reality

[GodKillerAtheist]

@ChiefClickClack ".I really didn't think someone could make an excuse for over 100 million people being murdered by Atheists" And no one will because NO ONE EVER KILLED SOMEONE FOR A LACK OF BELIEF. Obviously you're trying to be dishonest after I already showed you how fallacious and illogical your "Atheist killed 100 mil" claim was.

"If there is no God, then all things are Permissible"

Not to society. Just look how un-biblical it is. There is NO enforced Slavery, Racism, Incest or Rape.

[addmeful]

@GodKillerAtheist

Whether you believe or not, time will tell. Obviously you are not in the book of life, given your creepy name.

[GodKillerAtheist]

@ChiefClickClack "the 100+ million people that were murdered last century by Atheistic regimes" Communism is Government worship The government becomes the God, so not Atheistic

You're not smart if you believe Stalin the Orthodox Christian, Hitler the Catholic, Moa the Taoist, Pol Pot the Buddhist committed their crimes for MY LACK of belief in something your cult refuses to prove. Add your 100mil body count to the 2000+ years of dark ages Christianity raped and murdered EVERYONE!

[ChiefClickClack]

@GodKillerAtheist Yep, Stalin's strong Christian beliefs caused him to burn down over 10,000 churches; that makes a whole lot of sense

[GodKillerAtheist]

@ChiefClickClack "Stalin's strong Christian beliefs caused him to burn down over 10,000 churches; that makes a whole lot of sense"

Yep someones lack of belief caused them to do something? That makes no fucking sense at all. Stalin Burned down the churches because he hated the The orthodox church for abusing him through indoctrinating when he was a youth. It's common knowledge. But your cult likes to blame Atheists for everything. Not once did Stalin ever say "I don't believe in GOD" The End.

[TheHistoryguy10]

@GodKillerAtheist A person does not have to announce that he or she does not believe in God. A person could verbalize what he or she believes, but this is not conclusive. The only way to really know for sure is through someone's "actions." That is how you know what is in the heart and mind of a person. The Bible does not lie when it says in Proverbs 23:7 that, "for as he a thinketh in his heart, so is he:". Most people, even non-Christians, would agree with this.

[GodKillerAtheist]

@TheHistoryguy10 "The only way to really know for sure is through someone's "actions."

Well christanity doesn't have a monopoly on morality in fact you only need to believe that jesus died for your sins to be saved. Your cult doesn't really have any moral code in the first place. Remember you are saved by faith not works. so your point is invalid because Hitler believed Jesus died for his sins..That alone makes him a Christian.

[GodKillerAtheist]

@ChiefClickClack "God, angles, and demons could /exist in a 4th spatial dimension and we wouldn't/see them" Until then we can only suppose logically they don't exist.

"Our view of reality is limited /that our 5 senses provide to us."

Appeal to ignorance

"The string theory predicts 10 or 26 space-time dimensions"

And all are microscopic if God and angles (I think you meant angels) exist there it makes sense for a tiny God who is unseen and unverifiable and does nothing but take credit for good.

[ChiefClickClack]

@GodKillerAtheist You obviously don't understand anything about Mathematics or multiple dimensions.......it's not even that complicated............if there truly are 10 space-time dimensions, it opens up the possibility to a lot of things................What shows your ignorance is that fact that you act like you have it "all figured out"

[GodKillerAtheist]

@ChiefClickClack "Christians don't pray to a cross, Christians pray directly to God"

Christians can't coherently define God so they cant be praying to the unknown. Logically they are praying to torture humanity. All Christians are anti-humanism

"the fact is: he gave his life for Everyone, / he rose again"

This isn't a fact it's a hollow untruthful unsupported claim

"His love / all you can do is accept it"

Keep your homosexual Jesus love to yourself I love women not men

[ChiefClickClack]

@GodKillerAtheist Yeah you're exactly right man..............in the exact same way that the Atheism of the 20th century murdered over 100 million people (conservatively)..............­Atheism killed more people in 1 century than religion has ever killed since the beginning of time

[GodKillerAtheist]

@ChiefClickClack Intelligent enough to realize that what you call consciousness (The state of being awake and aware of ones surroundings) is deterministic in nature. You're conscious because of millions of chemical reactions in your body creating energy. You are aware of your surroundings because of sensors like your eyes and fingers.

Your urge to change something is the result of stimulus caused by chemicals reactions in your brain.

I don't have to lob personal attacks to prove my point.

[ChiefClickClack]

@GodKillerAtheist You may need an exorcism performed on you or something, you sound like you're Demon Possessed!

[GodKillerAtheist]

@ChiefClickClack And you may need a psychotherapist because you have a manic and irrational belief in nonsense. You sound like every Psychotic nutcase who never could prove their claims. Demonize me but understand your personal attacks don't validate your obvious cult nonsense.

[ChiefClickClack]

@GodKillerAtheist Whatever man............I feel bad for you because it sounds like you're demon possessed..............You could seriously use a good Exorcism............you probably have half a dozen demons nesting inside of you.............the fact that you're so Cynical is probably a good sign that they're reproducing............If I were a little Satanic demon, I would Love to reside in a Nasty, Cynical person like you..........Keep feeding those demons buddy!

[GodKillerAtheist]

@ChiefClickClack I feel bad for you always having to type "......" after every word you say. I think you are a brainwashed gimp possessed with the demon of over used periods. You could seriously use a spell checker and a large glass of reality. You probably have half a dozen illiterate creationists priests inside of your child's anus. The fact that you're so credulous is a good sign that you give the priest most of your paycheck. Dude get a life. you Couldn't prove demon or God if you tried

[GodKillerAtheist]

@ChiefClickClack Your entire argument is meant to demonize me because you failed to prove your claims now you do like your cult instructs and deceitfully try to paint your opponent as evil, vile, mentally disturbed, and filled with Jinns and demons. The fact you can't prove your claim and must resort to fallacious Ad hominem personal attacks is proof you are just a failure and a complete liar. You are your Satan

[GodKillerAtheist]

@ChiefClickClack

Stalin did what he did for power not because he had a lack of belief in flying invisible zombies. He burned orthodox churches because he felt they were evil because they attempted to brainwash him as a child (Which they are). Why didn't God stop Stalin? Because Churches are full of bullshit claims of magic. Stalin just proved it. Stalin Never Denounced belief in a God. If anything he was upset with religion but not an Atheist. Find me one statement where he says "I'm an Atheist

[GodKillerAtheist]

Anyone against Humanism is a misanthropist. Some one who hates humanity. There is no proof for God but there is proof for humanity.

The dictionary defines Humanism as the doctrine that people's duty is to promote human welfare. To Christians this is bad because the majority of them hate life and want to die because they think they will be with Jesus. They don't care if they rape, murder, lie, or steal because they are not saved by works but by faith in Jesus.

[Jubal24]

We miss the cause of the symptom when we ignore the fact that the public schools have nearly absolute power to implement and perpetuate this change. THe solution is to reject the public school and take control of our childrens' education.

[indkeith]

Frankie the fly is a pseudo-intellectual narcissist

[Bagkaa]

Fortunately this man's son, Frank, has realized what a load of crap this all is. Nothing but village idiots.

[redletterchurch]

Francis Schaeffer is worth listening to - whether you agree with him or not. He causes us to think deeply about important things. 'How Shall We Then Live?' is a MUST SEE! With respect to Francis - consider the Divinity Within Humanity aka the Holy Spirit as contrasted with atheistic secular humanism which denies the supernatural and the afterlife. We must be certain that we do not worship and serve false gods and goddesses. This is very tricky territory. Be very careful. Choose wisely. Namaste.

[GodKillerAtheist]

@redletterchurch "Divinity Within Humanity aka the Holy /supernatural and the afterlife. "

Well first for your comment to be creditable you must Prove divinity and prove holy spirit and then prove the afterlife and then prove supernatural you are saying that humanity has some ghost or wind inside of it that makes it do something. The reality is that altruism is a genetically built in function of humans that helps us progress. your superstition only holds us 1000 years in a very primitive past.

[redletterchurch]

@GodKillerAtheist I have witnessed the manipulation of physical objects by unseen intelligent entities. I have experienced unmistakeable supernatural events dozens of times. The evidence for supernatural events, the existence of the soul and the afterlife, and evidence of intelligent design are overwhelming. It's getting harder to be a Fundamentalist Christian or a GodKillerAtheist. The end is near. Your paradigm is about to shift - whether you like it or not. Prove me wrong.

[GodKillerAtheist]

@redletterchurch I don't need to prove random claims wrong when you've offered no proof for them. Your Burden of proof fallacy fails because when you make a claim it's your responsibility to prove them. Me not disproving what you haven't proven doesn't give your claims more credibility. Logically you can't disprove a negative and that's just what you've offered, empty claims.

I could just as well claim that I've seen a magical squirrel that could speak Chinese and shit gold. Prove me wrong.

[redletterchurch]

@GodKillerAtheist The True Believers of All Faiths Are Wrong. The Atheists of All Varieties Are Wrong. The Agnostics Have Been Right All Along. Just keep researching - and you will find all the evidence you require. Squirrels suck. I've got a magic monkey that spits the code of life when I spank it. And I've got proof.

[waginglove]

Thank you sir, "our present sorrows" inevitably flow from our human-focused worldview. "Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator," -Rom 1:25

[indkeith]

the son, frankie the fly is a punk

[Bagkaa]

@indkeith No, he's not. Frank is just not a village idiot.

[indkeith]

@Bagkaa Frankie the fly is a pseudo-intellectual narcissist

[Bagkaa]

@indkeith Ah shut up, fundie. Village idiot.

[TrannyAcid]

i cant believe he's a christian, when he looks like a mixture of Penn Jillette and the Amazing Atheist!

[jimtrueblue99]

"Dr." Francis Schaeffer was a ridiculous dilettante with some honorary doctorates from third-rate schools and the author of a collection of silly books that read as if they were term papers written by mediocre undergraduates in freshman-level survey courses. That this guy is touted as a pre-eminent thinker among evangelical Christians shows what a dilapidated and exhausted enterprise contemporary evangelical Christianity really is.

[batmayn]

you ought to read 1 Corinthians. The things he says are foolishness to you, just as the text describes. But to me the truths that Schaeffer talks about are sweet. Jesus Christ saved me from sin, hell and spiritual blindness. I hope for your sake God opens your eyes to see His truth, to 'taste and see that the Lord is good.' There is nothing else so satisfing and delightful as a personal walk with God, you dont know what youre missing. Repent and believe in Jesus Christ, give Him your life

[jimtrueblue99]

Perhaps you should read my post again. I wrote nothing about Jesus Christ or salvation. I wrote only about Francis Schaeffer's third-rate scholarship and the deplorable state of a variety of Christianity that finds him the epitome of deep thinking.

[sklamason]

@jimtrueblue99 I am just curious as to how many of his books you have read, and how many lectures have you heard?

[jimtrueblue99]

I've read "The Great Evangelical Disaster," "The God Who Was There," and "How Then Should We Live?"

[ChiefClickClack]

Dude, You're a dumbass......I don't care if Schaeffer didn't even go to Kindergarten......His arguments are Air-Tight and Sound......

If you can't see that, then you're the idiot.......what he is saying is not that complicated.......it doesn't have to be

[ChiefClickClack]

Only fools use Ad-Hominem Arguments.......

Don't attack him, attack what he is saying.......

What exactly do you have a problem with? I doubt you'll find anything, Schaeffer is right on the Mark!

[jimtrueblue99]

You write: "Only fools use Ad-Hominem Arguments......." and then you write: "Dude, You're a dumbass......"

Dude, the left side of your brain doesn't know what the right side is thinking and vice versa.

[ChiefClickClack]

Hahaha......that is kind of funny.......

Anyways, back to my original question.......

What part of Schaeffer's logic don't you agree with? You act like He is an idiot, but I guarentee you can't find 1 flaw in his argument!.......Please try!......Find just one flaw in his arguments........you won't be able to!

[jimtrueblue99]

Example: Schaeffer is wrong about the Founding Fathers. The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are humanist documents of the Enlightenment. They clearly assert that human government and law are the products of human reason and require no support from or justification by religion. Thats why you find the Bill of Rights in the Constitution, not the Bible, and why our free Republic was founded in the 18th century, not the Middle Ages when religion imprisoned Europe in ignorance.

[ChiefClickClack]

You're so clearly wrong.......

Explain to me why everyone is endowed with unalienable rights?.........On what foundation?

Why are all men created equal?........from a biological standpoint, everyone is clearly not equal......so how did the forefathers come to this conclusion?

It only makes sense if you PreSuppose a Creator.......There's no way you can argue your way out of this.

And that is exactly what Schaeffer is saying......

It's like the night following the day......

[jimtrueblue99]

In the Declaration Jefferson never identifies his creator with the biblical god; his creator is natures god. The Bible knows nothing about unalienable rights. Jefferson asserts a secular, humanistic political philosophy about human rights. You may dispute his views, but it is indisputable that he did not rely upon the Bible or religion; he appealed to human reason. Thus Schaeffer is wrong about the Founding Fathers.

[ChiefClickClack]

No, You're wrong about the founding fathers..

The vast majority of them were so clearly Christian.......they all read scripture and used scripture religiously.......they prayed before their meetings......and you can see the direct effects in the documents of the Constitution..

It is so crystal clear........without The Triune Christian God, our constitution would have NO FOUNDATION

You lying about the Founding Fathers, is no different than Mahmoud Ahmadinejad saying the Holocaust is a Hoax!!!

[jimtrueblue99]

The Founding Fathers did not embed their private religious beliefs in the Consitution. They created a secular government that is entirely dependent on human reason, human experience, and human understanding of law, justice, and government. The Constitution does not invoke any god and does not support any religion; it does not rely on any god or any religion. You think otherwise? Then find the clauses where god and religion appear. They don't exist.

[globalboy70]

Jim if you want a full perspective on Sheaffer's argument go read the first chapter of Christian Manifes, it's free on google. .

[globalboy70]

His understanding of the relationship between the American constitution and influences at stake at the time are quite profound. Have you ever read the constitution by trying to understand the mindset of the day? This is how historical documents need to be interpreted with the intent and understanding of the writers in mind. Historically, Christianity was a major factor in the thoughts about justice at the founding of the thirteen colonies. Cheers.

[ACSOLO]

@jimtrueblue99 Jim the problem is that you are reading the constitution with eye glasses of humanism. The constitution is innate with a Christian-Judeo world views and Law, Justice and government are presupposed in their meaning with God issued morality. (e.g) Its impossible to get a meaning of justice apart from "just" measures for man in only relative terms. it will not work. They presupposed God given demarcations that allow one to be fairly treated apart from humanistic measures.

[jimtrueblue99]

@ACSOLO So am I to believe that one of the God-given demarcations of the Constitution includes Article 1, Section 2, in which black slaves are defined as 3/5 of a person? That sounds like humanist relativism to me unless you want to maintain that God considers His black children as only 3/5 of his white and is OK with their enslavement.

[jamesglory1]

If the Son sets you free, you are free indeed.

[ChiefClickClack]

Schaeffer is the Man!!!!!

What a Brilliant, Compassionate, and Intellectual Man!!!

[halfeatengod]

wow - you people are idiots. I love this comment by cubed07: "Don't think about it too hard."

No chance of that where you people are concerned.

[melvinhartwinkle]

"God doesn't play dice." Now what idiot said that?

Care to take an educated guess half brain?

[hipstermi]

You mean Einstein?

He also said:

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

Albert Einstein, 195 From "Albert Einstein: The Human Side"

Now apologize.

[choccreams]

Frank Schaeffar is no comparison to his father and will not rise to the heights of his father in knowledge and influence. The son is little known outside the USA.

[seandrinkwater]

Frank Schaeffer might be a better starting place. He's been apologizing for his and his father's propaganda for a while now.

[mabainter]

@seandrinkwater Pfft. His son is a spoiled brat throwing feces at his father's memory in an effort to gain notoriety among his liberal peers. It's pathetic and sad, not something to be cheered and recommended.

[indkeith]

@mabainter ....true dat

[gtrjunky]

Awesome.

[SOLISDEUS]

What about the money changers and usurers manipulating the oil commodity market, denying working people health insurance, outsourcing jobs, raping and pillaging the earth for profit to sate their own greed and avarice? Why fuss over the freshman at Fresno State University buying this months Hustler or the single woman who gets an abortion 7 weeks into a pregnancy? Francis seems fixated on peoples personal lifes and lifestyles and not on the big usury monsters and money changers.

[RedLetterChristian]

To answer to your question, why dwell on peoples personal lives instead of corporate evils can be answered by - it is individuals that make up and carry out corporate evil. If you rail against the corporate evil you let the individual off the spiritual hook so to speak. If you challenge the individual in his personal life and lifestyle these should carry over into the corporate world.Unfortunately this is not the case because people justify their actions through the mantra "it's just business"!?

[SOLISDEUS]

I agree. Free will has a role to play regarding individual personal lifestyle choices. Yet is not focusing solely on the individual letting the big fish get away. For example, why not villify both Hitler and Fascism with equal vigor.

[cubed07]

Abortion and pornography are multi million dollars and even billion dollar ministries. The oil companies and banks fall under Shaffer's "Personal peace and affluence" portion of humanism. It's all related.

[cavalcanti77]

Very good Francis Schaeffer!

[asuzette]

"And with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

[danger0usknowledge]

His kind of secessionists will finally have their day

if not their rapture. His son Frank Jr will not

join & happily will not be invited.

[prepaenlinea]

Thank you very very much for this video-sermon of the most important christian philosopher of the second half of the twentieth century.

[wntoply6]

schaefffer's philosophy is terribly flawed and he is a total fool.

the united states of america was not founded so you so called "christians" can impose your narrow minded, very flawed and above all, ignorant, evil religion on those who do not believe it, do not want it, and will reject it to the point of death...not our death, but yours, should you foolishly try to impose it on us.

remember this sir, and remember it well:

YOUR RELIGION IS NOT OUR GOVERNMENT.

[prepaenlinea]

Not yet, certainly. But when "we", the Children of God, the deified ones, inherit the Earth and the world government, we will need to kill you and all of your kind... I'm sorry. But then, not now. So you decide: repent now or die then...

[wntoply6]

what an utter fool you are. man will always & ultimately reject impositions on his freedon whether it be trynical governments or backward, intolerant, hating religions.

lest you forget buddy, that's why america was founded.

only fools like you are bound to repeat history on your terms & why fools like you will always lose in the end. your religion never represented god or christ. it's continuously represented ignorance, hate, intolerance & bigotry...hmm sort of reminds me of hitler.

[prepaenlinea]

I promise you: History will never repeat again; so you and Hitler shall disappear...

[wntoply6]

you poor, poor fellow. you're more idiotic, no more sick than i could have ever imagined.

to reason with you is my folly, but briefly here goes:

hitler was satan, but thought he was god! he tried to impose his will on others and failed.

you are "christian" thinking you are of god trying to impose your will on others. as was so in history you fool, you will fail too.

but take heart, when in hell, you can try to change the will of satan too.

[prepaenlinea]

It's only a matter of time, my friend. When I gloriously manifest as a god (Romans 8:18-30), you will know what really justice is...

[wntoply6]

it's only a matter of time before you die a very unhappy death too prepaenlinea.

be mindful of than when you reach hell.

[cowbelltg]

Antichrist!You are no god and never will be god,you heretic.

[cubed07]

You can't become a god, their is only one true God and he's is supreme.

[wntoply6]

btw, your promises are as shallow as is the type "christianity" you practice.

remember this you poor uneducated hateful soul, christ never needed wars, hate, intolerance,or bigotry to convert the unwilling

.

no, in fact it was always faulty human hate, the likes of yours that needed those vehicles to try to impose lies on others.

also remember that the next time you think a war is needed to convert real christians to your demented practices prepaenlinea.

[prepaenlinea]

It's only a matter of time...

[wntoply6]

before your death...i totally agree!

[valu777]

USA IS BANKRUPT

[cubed07]

Freeom of religion, speech, and free will are Christian principles. God gives free will to mankind to chose either to worship him or not. It was on this Biblical bases and many others from the Bible that shaped our Constituion and DoI. The Constituion is loaded with rules and such that can be traced back to the Bible and our founding fathers were very religious, a majority of them were Christians, I have the 1500+ quotes to prove it so don't you dare say they were deist.

[cubed07]

Well by exercising freedom of speech you are allowing the Christian viewpoint to be imposed on you. Freedom of speech is based on God giving free will to mankind and our founding fathers knew that. Don't think about it too hard.

[ChiefClickClack]

Excellent Point..........well said

Without God there is no reason to believe in freedom of the individual and to believe that all men are created equal with inalienable rights........

There are no grouds or foundations for these ideas without God.........The Christian God!!!!

[butler4all1]

Incredible mind

[wntoply6]

if you are an illiterate, ignorant or stupid person, then i guess one can say schaeffer has an incredible mind. but then if you're illeterate, ignorant or stupid, a turtle has an incredible mind. wake up you fool!

you have no right to impose your religious beliefs on anyone. not even your own children.

best you keep your religion in your heart, your in home and your in church. we the public will not tolerate it anywhere else.