Thanks for this, my Father was was a commander in C squadron 8th KRIH and was taken prisoner in the Battle of Imjin River. He spoke very little of events in Korea but the scars were visible for the rest of his life. posts like this help to fill in the pieces of exactly what all the men who fought there went through! Lest we forget.
During the Battle of the Imjin River, when the commander of the US 3rd Division asked for a situation update on the trapped 1st Battalion, the Gloucestershire Regiment, British Brigadier Tom Brodie, said "A bit sticky, things are pretty sticky down there." In fact the small force was being overwhelmed by 10,000 Chinese troops
This is why I am not worried about war with China in the comming conflicts of 2012. Those glosters are true warriors that will NEVER be forgotten. may they rest in eternal peace.
Liverpool Scottish.....all I can say is that it's a damned shame. I would certainly rate their sacrifice among the top of history's notable battles where a few, knowing death was at their side, did so much, against so many. Their story deserves to live on. The probelm with Hollywood would be that they would screw it up, twist the facts, and in short dishonor what really happened.
I was on the DMZ in Korea in 70-71 and heard about the story of this gallant stand. I saw the hills and mountain they defended. There was a big tomb sealed in the mountain where many were buried. The Koreans spoke of this battle always in hushed tones and with reverence. It's a damned shame someone does not make a movie about this..it deserves being told to todays generations, most of whom are cluelss about sacrifice and bravery.
@ColonelRHS I will tell you WHY they will never make a film about 29th Brigade. Because they were BRITISH, not American. Hollywood would never consider putting money into a film which highlights how a steadfast British Brigade saved an entire US Corps from being cut off and annihilated. I have discussed the matter with author Andrew Salmon, and he agrees entirely. This story should be told in film, but sadly it never will be.
I purchased Andrew's book and have just finished reading it; all I will say is that it is well worth owning. Few, if any, books have made my blood run cold in places. Although we who weren't there cannot possibly imagine the scenes, 'To The Last Round' does for the Imjin battle, and the whole Korean war, what Beevor did for Stalingrad.
There's no way this could be portrayed in a movie!
im just glad my father was one of the survivors of the glorious glosters,otherwise i wouldnt be writing this...he died last year and never spoke about the war!!
@nylonTS whatever the reason... we will always have war, its a necessity of life... you can deny it but thats the truth, some say its because someone will always want what someone else has, some would say it is because of a just cause... I say simply, war is war and it is what the human race is good at making, its in our blood to fight for whatver reason, but one thing that war brings is progress... medical and scientific, so it has its balance in what you achive out of it.
@nylonTS I disagree, women are just as willing to fight as men, i know plenty of fighting women who are willing to do what men do in conflict without hesitation. Also conflict brings people together who would normally never know each other or care for each other, thats 'Mateship' as the Aussies would put it. If we lose war as an idea then we will dienout through over population, famine, and pandemics... in the long run war is needed, and sacrifice is what defines war and the people that fight.
@nylonTS Aye and thats because women weren't allowed to be soldiers, as a species we are all the same, women are not much different to men when it comes to fighting. Being a mother, wife and parents is not a reason why women don't fight at all, in this day and age women are as likely to want to be a soldier as men and so that statement in my mind has no anchor, both my parents served when i was a kid... i rarely saw them,thier jobs were more to them... women are likely to choose a job these days
@nylonTS I can't beleive that... me and my mate signed up to do a job, and if need be to die doing that job... and since my mate is now no longer here i have to beleive that there was a reason fro it, and that he is one fo the Glorious Dead, its anyone who wants to fight, just because men tended to be the leaders means nothing, look up Robert Mugabes wife during the Rhodesian bush war and tell me women cannot commit atrocties?
@micitomo12 Too right... I lost my best mate last year, he did his duty but suffered afterwards, i missed the signs and he OD'd around this time last year, my childhood mate, stood by me and i stood by him as we grew up on barracks, we joined together and served together, i was Discharged thorugh haveing AS and he couldn't take anymore after his wife left him, more often now its not the frontline that kills you... and those who take thier lives are truly the lost... miss him everyday :/
@StudLife28 The Scots, the English the Welsh, the Irish and Gurkhas. All who serve or served with the British military are well known for their record in battle. Certainly the Black Watch and the Royal Scots, at least, have left a fine reputation for Scotland. Although, in case you're mistaken, the Gloucester regiment who are the ones who fought at Imjin River, are from South England.
exellent clip, i was fortunate to have been present at the live presentation at the gloucestershire regiment museam for my shool work-expierence, the book "to the last round" is a great read
@mrgalleria but when one side is ovverun and opressed, would you stand idly by and let it happen or would you step in... this was the first and last time the UN did its job without hesitation, and sadly you have to poke them and beg them and plead to them now to get them to allow something like sanctions... war works for the greater good in the end, without war we'd have died out thousands of years ago as a species, without war we'd not have the identity as the peoples we are today.
@Hperman09 its probably got something to do with the political climate, its ok to portray bad guys as Arabs , russians and vietnamese but when its china being seen as the villain it doesnt go down well for some reason.
pretty ironic considering their stupendous attempts at censorship, horrible human rights record, invasions of tibet and 1 party policy.
@29Gixxer THat really sucks. I wish there's more about other countries involvement but they were downplayed and it make if US did all the work in Korea. Is' there any good documentary about it?
The problem is that due to the US being the only super power at the moment...it's natural for only their side of the story to be shown. Things like Hollywood films play a huge role in this. This can be applied to a few wars as it goes and there were quite a few in Lorea. I'll dig out all i have my friend then send them to you.
Yeah no worries bud...I'm on the case. I'm lucky as I am seeing my parents later and my old man is crazy about this kind of stuff so I'll dig out the docs.
Put a massive lump in my throat that....... The British Army always makes up for what it lacks in numbers for sheer outstanding bravery and professionalism and the reason why the American's wanted us there because they knew 29th Brigade could do the job !
Put a massive lump in my throat that....... The British Army always makes up for what it lacks in numbers for sheer outstanding bravery and professionalism and the reason why the American's wanted us there because they knew 29th Brigade could do the job !
Take care to you and your family and God Bless your Dad and his compatriots in the Royal Ulster Regiment they fought an overwhelmingly superior enemy and held out taking great casualities Something most people in the USA aren't even aware of Merry Christmas and peace be to you, your family and your country Again Thanks to brave men like your Dad we were able to keep South Korea free and out of the Soviet-Chinese orbit
I'm glad to hear that your Dad was saved and there are too many people here in the USA who don't even know about the UK's part in the "Korean Police Action" God bless you and your family and have a Merry Christmas
Do you live in Northern Ireland? or the Republic? or elsewhere? just curious don't mean to be nosey
Hi I my late father was from Belfast enlisted in Ballymena . He later joined the paras for an extra 2/6 d per week he was a really caring and quiet man at his funeral his old captain told a moving tale of the hell and bravery of the old soldiers. take care and have a good christmas.
@bessiebooh1955 RESPECT-MASSIVE RESPECT for your father & his comrades. Awesome fighting soldiers-huge amount of guts, determination, stubborness & stoicism. Proud to be British!
@bessiebooh1955 God Bless you and your Dad The UK is still the best ally in the world for the USA Thanks again Your Dad was in the Royal Ulster Regiment?
God bless you too. Yes my late father was in the Royal Ulsters he was shot and left for dead . His life was saved by an American tank driver who saw my father lying in the dirt and put him on the front of his tank. My dad was taken to an american mash hospital where his life was saved. he arrived home wearing a donated USA uniform. truely brothers in arms. Teresa
@bessiebooh1955 Teresa, I just wanted to say how much admiration I have for your late father & his comrades for their tremendous bravery, tenacity & stoicism at Imjin. I have just read Andrew Salmon's utterly superb book, "To The Last Round-The Epic British Stand On The Imjin River." If you haven't read it-you simply have too! I have a military background & I am a keen military historian. I cannot think of another Brigade sized action that can compare to the 29th Brigade. PROUD TO BE BRITISH!
@Badgerbitesback Obama said that for political reasons I don't even think he believes it You know how politicians are they make their speech fit the audience fair or not The UK has been our greatest ally nothing to talk about God Bless you your family and the Queen We're not all Noraid supporters here in NY especially since 9-11
@Badgerbitesback On the question I got to agree with you As long as the people of the Falklands want to remain British they should be able to He thinks that colonialism why doesn't he get out of Guantanamo, Samoa, Guam the northern Marianas and the US is glad to have the use of he Deigo Garcia Actually if any of those territories want to remain US territories they should be able to just like the Falklandersshould be able to remain British I just hope the UK remembers the lessons of the Falklands
This brings it home...My dad was a Gloster and brought me up on tales of the regiment: especially Imjin River and my Grandfather was a Gloster too in The Great War. I am very proud of my link to an outstanding group of men.
It is nor forgotten. The few Glosters who came home = mostly in wheel chairs
never forgotten, but had to fight for disabilty benefits to support themselves and family. There was no help for my neighbour having to liff, clean her husbands arse, wash and dress him, put himin a wheelchair for a walk. She was a tiny thing - him a big thing physically - when her heart gave in and he wasleft cacked in his own filth, emacipated for 5 days- neighbours only came looking becaue of the stench = 1975.
It is nor forgotten. The few Glosters who came home = mostly in wheel chairs
never forgotten, but had to fight for disabilty benefits to support themselves and family. There was no help for my neighbour having to liff, clean her husbands arse, wash and dress him, put himin a wheelchair for a walk. She was a tiny thing - him a big thing physically - when her heart gave in and he wasleft cacked in his own filth, emacipated for 5 days- neighbours only came looking becaue of the stench = 1975.
Royal Marines did a damn fine holding and buying time for the U.S Marines,U.S Marines did a damn fine job in proving people wrong and making Military history cut off and trapped and in weather 25 below zero pushed South towards U.N lines and carrying there dead with them all the way.
...50 years on and the British Government won't even pay for and send a serving ceremonial party for the 50th year anniversary. Fucking politicians. Ex-Gloster.
Amazing tribute to the soldiers of the so called "forgotten" war, these soldiers showed outstanding bravery and professionalism in their duties. Every soldier be it man or woman deserves our thanks and respect regardless how you feel about the conflict they fighting in. Anyone who is wiling to lay down their life for their country is a true HERO!. And they can never be forgotten .
Quite a good clip, shame about the editing skills, went too fast, One point to make though, Why is it always left to the farmers (the gloster regiment) to hold thier ground, only 10 years earlier they were the rear guard at Dunkirk and the whole regiment had to rebuilt
@velapulsar Correct. I knew an ex-Korean Argyll sniper who saw his mates attacked & killed by the USAF- yet another example of the lack of restraint & discipline that is an intrinsic feature of the US forces. Mac fought the Chinese in hand to hand combat in his unit's trenches. The Chinese attempted to overrun the Argylls & the Jocks fought their guts out & gave them a hiding. Mac killed one with a machete right in the face. He went on to the Para's, then SAS in Malaya & Borneo. RESPECT
@jonnyb1900 Your comment simply does not stand up to scrutiny. This was a time when National Service was in existance, many of the Glosters would have been National Servicemen and therefore would have come from all over the UK. Farmers? I think not.
They risk life and limb chasing cheese down big fuck off hills in Gloucestershire, so when they come across something actually worth risking your life for tey do it to the upmost of their ability!
The Asian countries quite often target there grievances at Western Culture and for causing their OWN political problems, when you consider the whole of Asia only one country comes to mind that is not riddled with corruption and that is Singapore, I have spent the majority of my life in Asian countries where they have never been able to sort out any of there major problems, it is always left to the west to sort them out. Sorry most Asians know NOTHING of History and are ignorant of that fact.
This is like a semi-mordern day Rourkes Drift. Beleagued, heavily outnumbered and isolated, another regionally recruited british battalion fights hand to hand with immense tenacity and courage to keep the ground. This should be one of the UKs most admirable actions. Like @UnleashedKane says, this war is forgotten. Most of my peers (british 20 yr olds) do not know of any Korean War. That appals me. How has hollywood not made a blockbuster about this?? Excellent video @AndrewSalmon1 , cheers
@supercrazydude48 Wonderful comments but when you see Hollywood films like 'Retreat Hell' you realise, even with all the Presidential Citations' snottily granted the Brits and Commonwealth troops, the USA had and have currently no concept of anything beyond their borders: it seems also after 9/11 they are the only country fightimg terrorism. Yeah and a large proportion of their so-called patriots are still financing the deaths of their fellow Irishmen by Irish terrorists
There was originally only one Korea. The Brits (and other Westerners following their lead) came and did all sorts of things to the geopolitical landscape of Asia -- play the divide-and-rule game here, set up a puppet government there -- all with a view to lining their pockets with silver. As a result the entirety of Asia was in chaos, the West coming in to support this faction or that faction all in the name of their own interests. The Korean War was but one example.
That officer standing near that field gun is a moron. That is a good way to get killed standing out in the open. Reminds me of all those British officers on the Somme who advanced with riding crops in the first wave as if on parade.
The Korean War was a tragedy for all concerned. Every nation had its own reasons for involvement. The Opium War - a glorious episodes for neither side - was not one. To claim that Britain was responsible for the fall of the Qing is simplistic: consider anti-Qing forces, eg the Taipings, for a start. As for the rise of the CCP: It was American rightwingers/KMT supporters who said the US "Lost China." Make of that what thou wilt.
The Brits were still a major factor in the eventual collapse of the Qing. The Qing court had to pay them large amounts of danegeld (correction: anglogeld), and that led to the destabilization of the Chinese economy and thence the rebellions.
We will give them an official appology when the Normans and Vikings have appologized for pillaging and raping us...and the entire world does the same and makes up and lives in harmony with each other. To expect one country to appologize for it's past but not others...again...stinks of resentment :)
You Brits today are supposed to be much more civilized than the Vikings and Normans from 1,500 years ago, so naturally you should give an official apology if you want to live up to your wonderful image.
We were more civilized then them although to compare morality 170 years ago with todays enlightened standards is euqally as silly. Your basically judgint the past on todays values.
If you're admitting that the Brits have come a long way morally since 170 years ago, (assuming they have), then isn't it all the more compelling a reason for them to issue an apology?
i knew some oul fellas who fought there with the ULSTER RIFLES , came home only to be shot dead as pensioners and theyre children to be murdered by terrorists in their own homes and beds , 25 years later , so much for fuckin democracy . UP THE RIFLES , UP THE UVF .
For the British soldiers on the Imjin, the Chinese were the enemy; not sure where you get the concept of "villains" from. All soldiers I interviewed - even those who suffered the most in the POW camps - respected the Chinese as adversaries.
Okay, that's chivalrous of them. (Referring to your post on the soldiers you interviewed who suffered in the POW camps.) But not so chivalrous was the selling of opium to the Chinese during the early 19th Century.
And the Chinese didn't particularly want to be enemies with the Brits before then, either.
Quite evidently the story is presented from a Western point of view.
When one reflects on the atrocities the bloody Brits inflicted on China in the 19th Century, one is apt to wonder just WHO the real villains ultimately are.
"John Quincy Adams commented that opium was "a mere incident to the dispute... the cause of the war is the kowtow- the arrogant and insupportable pretensions of China that she will hold commercial intercourse with the rest of mankind not upon terms of equal reciprocity, but upon the insulting and degrading forms of the relations between lord and vassal."
When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Same with China. If Adama wasn't happy about that, he was under no obligation to continue to engage China.
The Chinese did well for millennia without any sustained 'commercial intercourse with the rest of mankind'. The West forced that upon her, and now she's committing herself fully to it -- with consequences for the global environment I believe I don't have to elaborate upon.
Yes, it's not like millions of people died of starvation because of one mans paranoia about sparrows.
You're borderline delusional, do you think they put fences around Hong Kong to stop people getting out? The British were better to the people of China than there own government has ever been.
It was because of the Brits in the first place that the imperial order destabilised and collapsed, leading to the arising of political opportunists such as the CCP, who turned out to be a bunch of a**holes.
But we too could blame things on our conquerers like the Romans :) The true Brit is of Celtic blood although the English are mainly Saxon because the Saxons conquered much of Britian in the drak ages but you don't hear the Welsh going on about it. Blaming the past will never fix the present/future my friend....
A fine way to shirk responsibilities, if you ask me.
I'm not necessarily blaming the past, merely pointing out a non-Western historical perspective on the whole thing. This can only be a healthy corrective to the self-congratulatory attitude so common among the Brits.
What the Romans and the Saxons did took place more than 1,500 years ago. By contrast, what the Brits did to China took place merely 170 years ago.
What I'm saying is that if people are going to blame us for things we have done in the past then it's only fair that we look at others like the Mongols, Greeks, Romans, Persians..the list goes on and on. To say there is a timeline on things and that all others can be forgiven whilst the Brits have to be constantly reminded of such things stinks of resentment. What about what the japs did to the Chinese? they raped/murdered around 20 million from just 1930 - 1945.
Again...look at history and compare us to what others have done. The Mongols used mass rape as a weapon and this bloodline can still be seen in Russians/Eastern Europeans to this very day. The truth is that people resent us still because we are still quite powerfull/influential. If we were poor like Africa then nobody would give us a second look :)
It's always comforting to oneself to point out that others have committed the same or worse acts of wrong, isn't it?
I don't think the Brits are resented merely because they are still powerful. (Assuming they are.) Japan is at present nothing compared to China, but many Chinese still resent what the Japanese did in the past.
You should read my posts correctly too be becasue I admit we have done wrong in the past but what do you want us to do about it? kill ourselves? Give all of our money to other countries? This has never been done in the past and is life mate.
Why should I feel bad for things that were done by people 100's of years ago? lol
Continuing to drone on about things that happened before our great great grandfathers were born is stupid lol.
Such magnanimity! Others come and intrude upon your turf, and a few years later you smile at them anyway and forget it all! WOW!
The Brits did what they did, so they had to face the consequences.
The original impact of what the Romans etc had done gradually faded over time. Maybe given enough time the same will hold true for what the Brits did to China, but 170 years ISN'T enough time. Sorry, mate.
As for the Japanese, yes, you bet, many Chinese still resent them.
You just ignored what I said about the japs killing approx 20,000,000 Chinese from 1930 - 1945. They raped, stuck babies with bayonets, filled people with water and jumped up and down on them until they litterally burst. This wasn't even 100 year ago yet you have the audacity to speak of what we did 170 years ago hahaha. lol the Han have not forgotten this :)
Again you have not addressed what I had said. Many countries have done bad things and your just being selective in who you moan about (like our haters always do lol). I don't deny for one second the brits done some bad things but people like you are unwilling to accept this is true of all humans. Just look at what's going on around the world right now lmao.
The vid here just happens to be about the Brits, so I naturally focus on them here. If I focused on others instead, that would be just inappropriate. Right?
But I concede you do have a point about all human beings having been rotten at one point or another. The Chinese victimized the Vietnamese for centuries in the past, for example. And being Chinese I can tell you I don't feel good about this.
Also...our societies are the most diverse on earth. Nowhere else (apart from brazil maybe) do you get sucha tollerance for different races. We tollerate allot here and the truth is that China would execute half of the scum we have in this country lol. We treat our immigrants better than what their homelands do hence the reason why they risk their lives to get to our shores...
During the Tang Dynasty Arabs, Persians, Indians, Parthians etc etc were allowed to live in China. Some of them were even given high government positions. And the Jews have always been able to live happily in China in the past without fear of exploitation. Compare Europe.
So you refer to the distant past when it suits your argument :0 Look at our societies now then compare them to Asian countries. We are way more tollerant and diverse. If Immigrants flooded Asian countries demanding what they do here there would be riots :)
Also..to blame China's current oppressive regime on events that took place 170 years ago is just ridiculous...now that is definitely a get out clause :) Singapore is different to China in respect they have stronger ties to the west though. Your socity is more open than China's.
It's like a series of dominoes. One event causes another, which in turn causes yet another, and so on. The original domino is still the culprit, even though it was placed 170 years up the line.
So your saying that because of what happned 170 years ago...China now has the excuse to carry on as they are? WOW. That's like me saying that because we were invaded by the Normans...it changed us so now we can do as we please and just blame it on the Normans lol
I'm not excusing China. The CCP stinks to high heaven and I long to see them either go or reform. I'm merely saying the Brits had a BIG hand in what has become of China today.
I tend to believe that the world in general is currupt and it's a dog at dog situation. Had we of not done what we did then others would of. Germany for example still want an appology for Dresden although I don't think they will get one. The Queen recently told them where to go...in polite terms ofc.
Well, if it were the Germans instead who did what the Brits did, then you can be sure it is the Germans whom the Chinese will hate today.
And until the Royal Household gives their apology to the Chinese people, sorry, that scar is going to stay in everyone's heart. I believe you know what I mean.
What is that the British did that was so awful anyway? Mao killled tens of millions of his own people at a whim, the Japanese conducted chemical experiments and live vivisections without anesthetic, but apparently it's the British everyone should hate...
The Chinese people, especially the peasants, were even more cruelly oppressed by the Maoist phonies as the worst warlord, landlord or nobleman. The Maoist dirtbags made them all live in prisons called communes.
It was because of the British intrusion in the first place that the Qing court eventually collapsed so that political opportunists could arise. One of them was called the CCP. They eventually seized power and brought China into her current situation.
As I explained in another post, the Brits exacted large amounts of 'anglogeld' from the Qing court which had a deleterious effect on the Chinese economy. Famines and peasant uprisings resulted and the whole country was in chaos. If that's not awful enough, then I don't know what is.
It wasn't even the British who introduced Opium, it was the Portugese. You're so hysterically wrong it's hilarious, please keep humoring us about how the British empire is to blame for all the worlds troubles.
I'll finish by saying all my words are pointless, the British Empire speaks for itself. It's neither good nor bad, but for people like the inhabitants of Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia it was clearly the best available alternative. Of course you're Chinese so you undoubtedly supported the communist uprising, but many people are glad the British we're there to defeat them, and Singapore and Malaysia are clearly better for it.
Records show the Chinese had not done too poorly economically for a long time in history. Read the works of economic historian Angus Maddison. And I do not support the communist uprising FYI.
"Records show the Chinese had not done too poorly economically for a long time in history. "
If you consider subsistence farming to be okay. It's no coincidence that Hong Kong is the most prosperous and developed city in China, it's people have a gdp per capita (ppp) of $42,000 while the rest of China has somewhere around the $6,000 mark. Another ex colonoy Malaysia, has $14,000 compared with just $4,000 for Indonesia. I don't even need to tell you about Singapore...
About Singapore, it was once a British colony, but at a certain point the Brits suddenly just left, deciding that Singapore couldn't be 'defended', the way South Korea was oh-so-heroically defended (as this vid chronicles). Talk about being responsible.
Singapore was now in deep sh*t. Thank Heaven a Chinese named Lee Kuan Yew came and led Singapore out of the sh*t.
"Even before independence in 1965, Singapore was already one of the richest states in East Asia due to its strategic location as a port. Singapore's GDP per capita in 1965 was $511, third highest in East Asia after Japan and Hong Kong"
What you said about Singapore's GDP might be true, but it remains a fact all the same that at a certain point the Brits simply left Singapore in the lurch.
So you're saying the Brits were all innocent angels and Asia had only herself to blame for all the chaos that arose since the early 19th century? Sure, right.
As I've explained, whatever the details of the facts may be, it remains the case that the West twisted Asia's geopolitical landscape in all sorts of ways wherebefore there had been few regional problems to my knowledge. Stop defending the West with your mythologies.
@S1587915G no im not saying that at all but we certainly take more blame than we should especially when most of the colonies we left behind are now the most prosperous countries in the world.
anyway burma(myanmar) singapore malaysia and hong kong were the only countries we had any involvement in east asia
I think there are certain things called 'pride' and 'self-respect', the value of which outweigh any material benefits that being the subject of a colonial power might confer.
@S1587915G Yes the Brits have nothing to be sorry for, Asia was dominated because it was weak, the strong always dominate the weak. That's called human nature.
You could at least thank us for creating one of the more prosperous Asian nations....
@S1587915G Again I will say I'm not looking to "cover one's butt", we ruled you and made you prosperious. If your countrymen wanted to kick us out, which they didn't for the most part, they couldn't have because you were weak. Britain practically created the state of Singapore. So...... you're welcome.
There's something called 'self respect' which gives one's independence and self-determination a higher value than material prosperity. The folks of Afghanistan know this; that's why they've repeatedly said to you Brits, "No, thanks, we'd rather be what you call poor and backward."
By the way, from what I read, your government is making more and more concessions to the Muslims. Seems you Brits are in for a Muslim takeover.
@S1587915G It's as I said, the Afghan's were strong and able to fight, that is why they were not conqured. I realise there are specific occasions where the traditional protocal doesn't apply, such as our creation of Singapore. I rather think your countrymen much prefered our fair rule compared to that of a distant sultan.
As for the governemnt thing you are totally right there, our government is criminal and has to be stopped.
@S1587915G They made the right choice, we were the most powerful and rich empire in the world for a time, it's the descisions that cost us our empire that I regret.
I never knew that killing or victimizing large numbers of innocent people who never had any gripe with you could ever have been part of a 'RIGHT' choice.
So you now think that Muslim population of 3% is going to take over the UK? hmmm lol. It's about time you stop blaming everything on the west and sort youselves out mate. We are tired of whiping your asses for you. Western countries donate more to the 3rd world now than what China does and I won't even go into the issues surrounding human rights in China. We have tolerant, multicultural societies where as Asia/Africa doesn't...
Quite evidently I've touched a raw nerve here. :)
I'm not blaming the West, just pointing out certain things you fellas did in the past of which a lot of people elsewhere are most highly appreciative. And just why they're so appreciative, I leave it to you to figure out.
And as for your fantasy of Asia taking on the West...UK alone has double the amount of carriers that China has lmao. NATO has 19 carriers with another 3 being built. China has 1...Japan has 2 tiny 20,000 ton ships! All China has is a large conscripted army that they have recruited from junior school lol.
Combined Western GDP = 33 trillion...ish.
Combined Western defence budget = $1,200,000,000,000 ish
It is true that empires come and go although you are not alking about an empire when referring to the wst...you are talking about a large chunk of the world. The truth is...before the East can catch up, we will hit what's called peak oil where we will all suffer.
Yep...the West started it lthough China nd India are now doing the same - i.e turning resource into economic wealth (money).
We will soon hit whats called peak oil (which is where the resves get below 50% and everyday means more enrgy/resoure to get that resource out) and then we are all fucked. Without oil...we go back 500 years...simply as mate.
To say that Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong etc have benefitted from what the Brits did is like saying that the children of a mother have benefitted from the care of a bandit who crippled the mother. The bandit believed the mother wasn't caring enough for the kids and HE could do a better job -- which is far from evident. Just look at what the whole ethos of modern industrial civilization is doing to the global environment.
The Germans under the Kaiser murdered hundreds of thousands of Chinese in retaliation for the death of 1 ambassador after the Boxer Rebellion. As well as they ruled the whole Shantung peninsula ruthlessly until WW l. The Kaiser exhorted his soldiers to be cruel and murderous to the Chinese. Show me where the Brits were that bad.
Killing people is not the only way to be bad. Another way is to make their country weak and even make their government collapse, as a result of which rotten people with political ambitions would seize power and make life perpetual hell for the people. THIS is what the Brits did.
"rotten people with political ambitions would seize power"
Except of course that people realized that it was only under the British that they would ever get any resemblance of a stable and non corruptible government under which to trade freely, without monastic monopolies or having to bribe local officials. The old systems of trade in Asia damaged the local people the most, many weren't in favour with the monarchy so couldn't start business etc.
In history the Chinese did pretty well economically at times. Commerce thrived during the Song Dynasty, for example. On the other hand, it's not clear to me if the British system can really prove that stable in the long run. Look at the current state of affairs in the West. And I have not mentioned its environmentally destructive aspects.
Thanks for this, my Father was was a commander in C squadron 8th KRIH and was taken prisoner in the Battle of Imjin River. He spoke very little of events in Korea but the scars were visible for the rest of his life. posts like this help to fill in the pieces of exactly what all the men who fought there went through! Lest we forget.
singa754 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
During the Battle of the Imjin River, when the commander of the US 3rd Division asked for a situation update on the trapped 1st Battalion, the Gloucestershire Regiment, British Brigadier Tom Brodie, said "A bit sticky, things are pretty sticky down there." In fact the small force was being overwhelmed by 10,000 Chinese troops
ImperialGuard9001 1 month ago
Comment removed
ImperialGuard9001 1 month ago
This is why I am not worried about war with China in the comming conflicts of 2012. Those glosters are true warriors that will NEVER be forgotten. may they rest in eternal peace.
revolutionary17 1 month ago
Liverpool Scottish.....all I can say is that it's a damned shame. I would certainly rate their sacrifice among the top of history's notable battles where a few, knowing death was at their side, did so much, against so many. Their story deserves to live on. The probelm with Hollywood would be that they would screw it up, twist the facts, and in short dishonor what really happened.
ColonelRHS 1 month ago
im 44 years old and have only just found out my grandad was there... william roper wwould have been 100 this year R.IP
fkafly 2 months ago
I was on the DMZ in Korea in 70-71 and heard about the story of this gallant stand. I saw the hills and mountain they defended. There was a big tomb sealed in the mountain where many were buried. The Koreans spoke of this battle always in hushed tones and with reverence. It's a damned shame someone does not make a movie about this..it deserves being told to todays generations, most of whom are cluelss about sacrifice and bravery.
ColonelRHS 4 months ago 3
@ColonelRHS I will tell you WHY they will never make a film about 29th Brigade. Because they were BRITISH, not American. Hollywood would never consider putting money into a film which highlights how a steadfast British Brigade saved an entire US Corps from being cut off and annihilated. I have discussed the matter with author Andrew Salmon, and he agrees entirely. This story should be told in film, but sadly it never will be.
LIVERPOOLSCOTTISH 1 month ago
I purchased Andrew's book and have just finished reading it; all I will say is that it is well worth owning. Few, if any, books have made my blood run cold in places. Although we who weren't there cannot possibly imagine the scenes, 'To The Last Round' does for the Imjin battle, and the whole Korean war, what Beevor did for Stalingrad.
There's no way this could be portrayed in a movie!
timmittytim 6 months ago
Im in the Gloucestershire Army Cadet Force We wear the famous imjin back badge to Support all effort to hold back the Chinese in this battle.
Bencook9139 7 months ago
@Bencook9139 Check your Regimental history Ben. The famous Back Badge was won at Alexandria in 1801.
Banshee135 2 months ago
im just glad my father was one of the survivors of the glorious glosters,otherwise i wouldnt be writing this...he died last year and never spoke about the war!!
natlew123 8 months ago 6
What is the music?
falcons1988 9 months ago
@falcons1988 It's from The Last of the Monicans.
JTB198819962006 8 months ago
we will always have Wars while we have stupid men who want to go fight them
nylonTS 9 months ago
@nylonTS whatever the reason... we will always have war, its a necessity of life... you can deny it but thats the truth, some say its because someone will always want what someone else has, some would say it is because of a just cause... I say simply, war is war and it is what the human race is good at making, its in our blood to fight for whatver reason, but one thing that war brings is progress... medical and scientific, so it has its balance in what you achive out of it.
Badgerbitesback 8 months ago
@Badgerbitesback Your comments are so true Badger but why do men want to fight each other that what puzzels me as a women
Maybe men should move over and let women sort out the problems of the world there may be a happier outcome in the long run
Thanks for the comment
nylonTS 8 months ago
@nylonTS I disagree, women are just as willing to fight as men, i know plenty of fighting women who are willing to do what men do in conflict without hesitation. Also conflict brings people together who would normally never know each other or care for each other, thats 'Mateship' as the Aussies would put it. If we lose war as an idea then we will dienout through over population, famine, and pandemics... in the long run war is needed, and sacrifice is what defines war and the people that fight.
Badgerbitesback 8 months ago
@Badgerbitesback Dear Badger you paint a broard picture of a women there with that statement
You will always find women who are differant and are willing to fight But most women are mothers and wives & partners of men
Most women want family and love not wars
I am very intrested in History especialy 20th cent and have visited a great deal of Battle Fields the Somme Arnham ,Normandy just number a few
I have noticed in the Graveyards of europe very few women buried there but 1000s of men
nylonTS 8 months ago
@nylonTS Aye and thats because women weren't allowed to be soldiers, as a species we are all the same, women are not much different to men when it comes to fighting. Being a mother, wife and parents is not a reason why women don't fight at all, in this day and age women are as likely to want to be a soldier as men and so that statement in my mind has no anchor, both my parents served when i was a kid... i rarely saw them,thier jobs were more to them... women are likely to choose a job these days
Badgerbitesback 8 months ago
@Badgerbitesback you have missed my point Men in Genaral make wars I dont need to list them you will know the names Hitle,r Kaiser, Ect Ect
Why is this ??
is it gentic why men want to fight and make wars it solves nothing we all end up being freinds after wars so why have them
There is no Glory in Death
nylonTS 8 months ago
@nylonTS I can't beleive that... me and my mate signed up to do a job, and if need be to die doing that job... and since my mate is now no longer here i have to beleive that there was a reason fro it, and that he is one fo the Glorious Dead, its anyone who wants to fight, just because men tended to be the leaders means nothing, look up Robert Mugabes wife during the Rhodesian bush war and tell me women cannot commit atrocties?
Badgerbitesback 8 months ago
thousands of people give their life
for what?
because they're told to they do it because they believe it is right and they are proud to serve they're country
that is why i believe soldiers deserve the upmost respect
micitomo12 10 months ago
@micitomo12 Too right... I lost my best mate last year, he did his duty but suffered afterwards, i missed the signs and he OD'd around this time last year, my childhood mate, stood by me and i stood by him as we grew up on barracks, we joined together and served together, i was Discharged thorugh haveing AS and he couldn't take anymore after his wife left him, more often now its not the frontline that kills you... and those who take thier lives are truly the lost... miss him everyday :/
Badgerbitesback 8 months ago
I live in California. I get the notion that Scots are known to be fierce soldiers in the British Military. notorious almost.
StudLife28 10 months ago
@StudLife28 The Scots, the English the Welsh, the Irish and Gurkhas. All who serve or served with the British military are well known for their record in battle. Certainly the Black Watch and the Royal Scots, at least, have left a fine reputation for Scotland. Although, in case you're mistaken, the Gloucester regiment who are the ones who fought at Imjin River, are from South England.
RodmasterStudios 10 months ago
Makes me proud to come from Gloucester
GrimeInItHard 10 months ago 2
exellent clip, i was fortunate to have been present at the live presentation at the gloucestershire regiment museam for my shool work-expierence, the book "to the last round" is a great read
ThePendragon88 10 months ago
A lot of people killed others, and a lot of people died.
For who?
The one's who controlled all this suffered not.
When will we learn?
mrgalleria 1 year ago
@mrgalleria but when one side is ovverun and opressed, would you stand idly by and let it happen or would you step in... this was the first and last time the UN did its job without hesitation, and sadly you have to poke them and beg them and plead to them now to get them to allow something like sanctions... war works for the greater good in the end, without war we'd have died out thousands of years ago as a species, without war we'd not have the identity as the peoples we are today.
Badgerbitesback 8 months ago
@Badgerbitesback
"without war we'd have died out thousands of years ago as a species"
I don't know, do they have a therapy for that condition?
mrgalleria 8 months ago
Odds 7:1? Small wonder the British kicked seven shades out the Chinese then! RESPECT.
LIVERPOOLSCOTTISH 1 year ago
It's amazing that Korean war was so forgotten that WW2 and Vietnam gets more media coverage more. I wish thats all a movies about Korea.
Hperman09 1 year ago
@Hperman09 its probably got something to do with the political climate, its ok to portray bad guys as Arabs , russians and vietnamese but when its china being seen as the villain it doesnt go down well for some reason.
pretty ironic considering their stupendous attempts at censorship, horrible human rights record, invasions of tibet and 1 party policy.
thaoval123 1 year ago
@Hperman09
Oops, I see that oyu're aware of this.
4 dislikes = 4 angry Chinese dudes lol
29Gixxer 1 year ago
@29Gixxer THat really sucks. I wish there's more about other countries involvement but they were downplayed and it make if US did all the work in Korea. Is' there any good documentary about it?
Hperman09 1 year ago
@Hperman09
The problem is that due to the US being the only super power at the moment...it's natural for only their side of the story to be shown. Things like Hollywood films play a huge role in this. This can be applied to a few wars as it goes and there were quite a few in Lorea. I'll dig out all i have my friend then send them to you.
29Gixxer 1 year ago
@29Gixxer I mean like pictures, Videos and anything. Just not some written stuff i want documentary, books and stuff Thanks.
Hperman09 1 year ago
@Hperman09
Yeah no worries bud...I'm on the case. I'm lucky as I am seeing my parents later and my old man is crazy about this kind of stuff so I'll dig out the docs.
29Gixxer 1 year ago
Put a massive lump in my throat that....... The British Army always makes up for what it lacks in numbers for sheer outstanding bravery and professionalism and the reason why the American's wanted us there because they knew 29th Brigade could do the job !
craneboy12345 1 year ago 24
Put a massive lump in my throat that....... The British Army always makes up for what it lacks in numbers for sheer outstanding bravery and professionalism and the reason why the American's wanted us there because they knew 29th Brigade could do the job !
craneboy12345 1 year ago
Take care to you and your family and God Bless your Dad and his compatriots in the Royal Ulster Regiment they fought an overwhelmingly superior enemy and held out taking great casualities Something most people in the USA aren't even aware of Merry Christmas and peace be to you, your family and your country Again Thanks to brave men like your Dad we were able to keep South Korea free and out of the Soviet-Chinese orbit
elamite66 1 year ago
@elamite66
thanks for your kind words am sure my dear old dad would have been so happy to read them.
take care have a blessed christmas.
bessiebooh1955 1 year ago
I'm glad to hear that your Dad was saved and there are too many people here in the USA who don't even know about the UK's part in the "Korean Police Action" God bless you and your family and have a Merry Christmas
Do you live in Northern Ireland? or the Republic? or elsewhere? just curious don't mean to be nosey
elamite66 1 year ago
@elamite66
Hi I my late father was from Belfast enlisted in Ballymena . He later joined the paras for an extra 2/6 d per week he was a really caring and quiet man at his funeral his old captain told a moving tale of the hell and bravery of the old soldiers. take care and have a good christmas.
bessiebooh1955 1 year ago
@bessiebooh1955 RESPECT-MASSIVE RESPECT for your father & his comrades. Awesome fighting soldiers-huge amount of guts, determination, stubborness & stoicism. Proud to be British!
LIVERPOOLSCOTTISH 1 year ago
My late father was shot and wounded at imjim royal ulsters rest i'n peace dad x
bessiebooh1955 1 year ago
@bessiebooh1955 God Bless you and your Dad The UK is still the best ally in the world for the USA Thanks again Your Dad was in the Royal Ulster Regiment?
elamite66 1 year ago
@elamite66
God bless you too. Yes my late father was in the Royal Ulsters he was shot and left for dead . His life was saved by an American tank driver who saw my father lying in the dirt and put him on the front of his tank. My dad was taken to an american mash hospital where his life was saved. he arrived home wearing a donated USA uniform. truely brothers in arms. Teresa
bessiebooh1955 1 year ago
@bessiebooh1955 Teresa, I just wanted to say how much admiration I have for your late father & his comrades for their tremendous bravery, tenacity & stoicism at Imjin. I have just read Andrew Salmon's utterly superb book, "To The Last Round-The Epic British Stand On The Imjin River." If you haven't read it-you simply have too! I have a military background & I am a keen military historian. I cannot think of another Brigade sized action that can compare to the 29th Brigade. PROUD TO BE BRITISH!
LIVERPOOLSCOTTISH 1 year ago
@elamite66 well if you ask Obama he says that France is the greatest ally the USA has... but i agree, we have backed the US in many conflicts.
Badgerbitesback 8 months ago
@Badgerbitesback Obama said that for political reasons I don't even think he believes it You know how politicians are they make their speech fit the audience fair or not The UK has been our greatest ally nothing to talk about God Bless you your family and the Queen We're not all Noraid supporters here in NY especially since 9-11
elamite66 8 months ago
@elamite66 hes also backing argentina to get the UN to get britain to hand over the Falklands... so he's a disgrace.
Badgerbitesback 8 months ago
@Badgerbitesback On the question I got to agree with you As long as the people of the Falklands want to remain British they should be able to He thinks that colonialism why doesn't he get out of Guantanamo, Samoa, Guam the northern Marianas and the US is glad to have the use of he Deigo Garcia Actually if any of those territories want to remain US territories they should be able to just like the Falklandersshould be able to remain British I just hope the UK remembers the lessons of the Falklands
elamite66 8 months ago
This brings it home...My dad was a Gloster and brought me up on tales of the regiment: especially Imjin River and my Grandfather was a Gloster too in The Great War. I am very proud of my link to an outstanding group of men.
StOsmonds 1 year ago
they saved yank arses, shouldnt have bothered though
Rentaghost76 1 year ago
It is nor forgotten. The few Glosters who came home = mostly in wheel chairs
never forgotten, but had to fight for disabilty benefits to support themselves and family. There was no help for my neighbour having to liff, clean her husbands arse, wash and dress him, put himin a wheelchair for a walk. She was a tiny thing - him a big thing physically - when her heart gave in and he wasleft cacked in his own filth, emacipated for 5 days- neighbours only came looking becaue of the stench = 1975.
anndchelt 1 year ago
It is nor forgotten. The few Glosters who came home = mostly in wheel chairs
never forgotten, but had to fight for disabilty benefits to support themselves and family. There was no help for my neighbour having to liff, clean her husbands arse, wash and dress him, put himin a wheelchair for a walk. She was a tiny thing - him a big thing physically - when her heart gave in and he wasleft cacked in his own filth, emacipated for 5 days- neighbours only came looking becaue of the stench = 1975.
anndchelt 1 year ago
Royal Marines did a damn fine holding and buying time for the U.S Marines,U.S Marines did a damn fine job in proving people wrong and making Military history cut off and trapped and in weather 25 below zero pushed South towards U.N lines and carrying there dead with them all the way.
Dogmeat1950 1 year ago
Great emotive piece of work there mate,the text is too fast. Message me if you want to know how to get the video footage.
M4M1610 1 year ago
...50 years on and the British Government won't even pay for and send a serving ceremonial party for the 50th year anniversary. Fucking politicians. Ex-Gloster.
mycal64 1 year ago
people forget how the irish played major part and those men wil never be forgotten
rockape560 1 year ago
Amazing tribute to the soldiers of the so called "forgotten" war, these soldiers showed outstanding bravery and professionalism in their duties. Every soldier be it man or woman deserves our thanks and respect regardless how you feel about the conflict they fighting in. Anyone who is wiling to lay down their life for their country is a true HERO!. And they can never be forgotten .
a1denicholls 1 year ago
Interesting, though some of the text goes by a bit fast to read in the time given.
My dad was on the receiving end of this general offensive, though in the US sector. Similar description from him.
dougmccarron 1 year ago
"Quite a good clip," that. Actually astonishingly good on the part of the maker.
transonicbuoy1 1 year ago
fogoten irish heroes......NEVER
rockape560 1 year ago
Quite a good clip, shame about the editing skills, went too fast, One point to make though, Why is it always left to the farmers (the gloster regiment) to hold thier ground, only 10 years earlier they were the rear guard at Dunkirk and the whole regiment had to rebuilt
jonnyb1900 1 year ago 7
@jonnyb1900 Because the Americans napalmed the Argyll and Sutherlands on Hill 282.
velapulsar 1 year ago
@velapulsar Correct. I knew an ex-Korean Argyll sniper who saw his mates attacked & killed by the USAF- yet another example of the lack of restraint & discipline that is an intrinsic feature of the US forces. Mac fought the Chinese in hand to hand combat in his unit's trenches. The Chinese attempted to overrun the Argylls & the Jocks fought their guts out & gave them a hiding. Mac killed one with a machete right in the face. He went on to the Para's, then SAS in Malaya & Borneo. RESPECT
LIVERPOOLSCOTTISH 1 year ago
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publicmario17 1 year ago
@jonnyb1900 Your comment simply does not stand up to scrutiny. This was a time when National Service was in existance, many of the Glosters would have been National Servicemen and therefore would have come from all over the UK. Farmers? I think not.
LIVERPOOLSCOTTISH 1 year ago
@jonnyb1900
They risk life and limb chasing cheese down big fuck off hills in Gloucestershire, so when they come across something actually worth risking your life for tey do it to the upmost of their ability!
Azog150 5 months ago 3
Comment removed
jonnyb1900 1 year ago
The Asian countries quite often target there grievances at Western Culture and for causing their OWN political problems, when you consider the whole of Asia only one country comes to mind that is not riddled with corruption and that is Singapore, I have spent the majority of my life in Asian countries where they have never been able to sort out any of there major problems, it is always left to the west to sort them out. Sorry most Asians know NOTHING of History and are ignorant of that fact.
bangkapi10240 1 year ago
This is like a semi-mordern day Rourkes Drift. Beleagued, heavily outnumbered and isolated, another regionally recruited british battalion fights hand to hand with immense tenacity and courage to keep the ground. This should be one of the UKs most admirable actions. Like @UnleashedKane says, this war is forgotten. Most of my peers (british 20 yr olds) do not know of any Korean War. That appals me. How has hollywood not made a blockbuster about this?? Excellent video @AndrewSalmon1 , cheers
supercrazydude48 1 year ago
@supercrazydude48 Wonderful comments but when you see Hollywood films like 'Retreat Hell' you realise, even with all the Presidential Citations' snottily granted the Brits and Commonwealth troops, the USA had and have currently no concept of anything beyond their borders: it seems also after 9/11 they are the only country fightimg terrorism. Yeah and a large proportion of their so-called patriots are still financing the deaths of their fellow Irishmen by Irish terrorists
HOLLYWOOD my arse!
Heuri1 1 year ago
@supercrazydude48 There was a film called pork chop hill staring Gregory peck.
Hperman09 1 year ago
There was originally only one Korea. The Brits (and other Westerners following their lead) came and did all sorts of things to the geopolitical landscape of Asia -- play the divide-and-rule game here, set up a puppet government there -- all with a view to lining their pockets with silver. As a result the entirety of Asia was in chaos, the West coming in to support this faction or that faction all in the name of their own interests. The Korean War was but one example.
S1587915G 1 year ago
That officer standing near that field gun is a moron. That is a good way to get killed standing out in the open. Reminds me of all those British officers on the Somme who advanced with riding crops in the first wave as if on parade.
jakefree24 1 year ago
Blast those commie pricks to Hell!
RichardSwayne 1 year ago
@RichardSwayne
Communism is a Western invention. It came from someone named Karl Marx.
S1587915G 1 year ago
The Korean War was a tragedy for all concerned. Every nation had its own reasons for involvement. The Opium War - a glorious episodes for neither side - was not one. To claim that Britain was responsible for the fall of the Qing is simplistic: consider anti-Qing forces, eg the Taipings, for a start. As for the rise of the CCP: It was American rightwingers/KMT supporters who said the US "Lost China." Make of that what thou wilt.
andrewcsalmon 1 year ago
@andrewcsalmon
The Brits were still a major factor in the eventual collapse of the Qing. The Qing court had to pay them large amounts of danegeld (correction: anglogeld), and that led to the destabilization of the Chinese economy and thence the rebellions.
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G
So what would you like to see us do then? If you can't answer this then one can only assume your point is to moan about the past my friend.
29Gixxer 1 year ago
@29Gixxer
How about an official apology to the Chinese people from the Royal Household?
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G
We will give them an official appology when the Normans and Vikings have appologized for pillaging and raping us...and the entire world does the same and makes up and lives in harmony with each other. To expect one country to appologize for it's past but not others...again...stinks of resentment :)
29Gixxer 1 year ago
@29Gixxer
You Brits today are supposed to be much more civilized than the Vikings and Normans from 1,500 years ago, so naturally you should give an official apology if you want to live up to your wonderful image.
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G
We were more civilized then them although to compare morality 170 years ago with todays enlightened standards is euqally as silly. Your basically judgint the past on todays values.
29Gixxer 1 year ago
@29Gixxer
If you're admitting that the Brits have come a long way morally since 170 years ago, (assuming they have), then isn't it all the more compelling a reason for them to issue an apology?
S1587915G 1 year ago
very moving tribute to some very brave men
motormadhead13 1 year ago
i can easily say that is one of the most heart pinching vids i have ever seen on here nice one mate
mrorange101 1 year ago
The chinese might be ferocious an dbrave enemies in the battlefield but they were more human to prisoner of wars than the North Korean
ali4330 1 year ago 3
i knew some oul fellas who fought there with the ULSTER RIFLES , came home only to be shot dead as pensioners and theyre children to be murdered by terrorists in their own homes and beds , 25 years later , so much for fuckin democracy . UP THE RIFLES , UP THE UVF .
STUARTC626 1 year ago
@STUARTC626 2 f in rite mate U.T.UVF
mikeyutj1 1 year ago
S1587915G
For the British soldiers on the Imjin, the Chinese were the enemy; not sure where you get the concept of "villains" from. All soldiers I interviewed - even those who suffered the most in the POW camps - respected the Chinese as adversaries.
andrewcsalmon 1 year ago
@andrewcsalmon
Okay, that's chivalrous of them. (Referring to your post on the soldiers you interviewed who suffered in the POW camps.) But not so chivalrous was the selling of opium to the Chinese during the early 19th Century.
And the Chinese didn't particularly want to be enemies with the Brits before then, either.
S1587915G 1 year ago
Quite evidently the story is presented from a Western point of view.
When one reflects on the atrocities the bloody Brits inflicted on China in the 19th Century, one is apt to wonder just WHO the real villains ultimately are.
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G Like what
ProcolHarum1967 1 year ago
@ProcolHarum1967
Like the Opium Wars.
S1587915G 1 year ago
"John Quincy Adams commented that opium was "a mere incident to the dispute... the cause of the war is the kowtow- the arrogant and insupportable pretensions of China that she will hold commercial intercourse with the rest of mankind not upon terms of equal reciprocity, but upon the insulting and degrading forms of the relations between lord and vassal."
smoochym 1 year ago
@smoochym
When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Same with China. If Adama wasn't happy about that, he was under no obligation to continue to engage China.
The Chinese did well for millennia without any sustained 'commercial intercourse with the rest of mankind'. The West forced that upon her, and now she's committing herself fully to it -- with consequences for the global environment I believe I don't have to elaborate upon.
S1587915G 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"The Chinese did well for millennia "
Yes, it's not like millions of people died of starvation because of one mans paranoia about sparrows.
You're borderline delusional, do you think they put fences around Hong Kong to stop people getting out? The British were better to the people of China than there own government has ever been.
smoochym 1 year ago
@S1587915G
China kills more of their own people than what we ever did so I would think carefully before calling others vilians my friend :)
29Gixxer 1 year ago
@29Gixxer
It was because of the Brits in the first place that the imperial order destabilised and collapsed, leading to the arising of political opportunists such as the CCP, who turned out to be a bunch of a**holes.
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G
But we too could blame things on our conquerers like the Romans :) The true Brit is of Celtic blood although the English are mainly Saxon because the Saxons conquered much of Britian in the drak ages but you don't hear the Welsh going on about it. Blaming the past will never fix the present/future my friend....
29Gixxer 1 year ago
@29Gixxer
A fine way to shirk responsibilities, if you ask me.
I'm not necessarily blaming the past, merely pointing out a non-Western historical perspective on the whole thing. This can only be a healthy corrective to the self-congratulatory attitude so common among the Brits.
What the Romans and the Saxons did took place more than 1,500 years ago. By contrast, what the Brits did to China took place merely 170 years ago.
S1587915G 1 year ago
What I'm saying is that if people are going to blame us for things we have done in the past then it's only fair that we look at others like the Mongols, Greeks, Romans, Persians..the list goes on and on. To say there is a timeline on things and that all others can be forgiven whilst the Brits have to be constantly reminded of such things stinks of resentment. What about what the japs did to the Chinese? they raped/murdered around 20 million from just 1930 - 1945.
29Gixxer 1 year ago
@S1587915G
Again...look at history and compare us to what others have done. The Mongols used mass rape as a weapon and this bloodline can still be seen in Russians/Eastern Europeans to this very day. The truth is that people resent us still because we are still quite powerfull/influential. If we were poor like Africa then nobody would give us a second look :)
29Gixxer 1 year ago
@29Gixxer
It's always comforting to oneself to point out that others have committed the same or worse acts of wrong, isn't it?
I don't think the Brits are resented merely because they are still powerful. (Assuming they are.) Japan is at present nothing compared to China, but many Chinese still resent what the Japanese did in the past.
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G
You should read my posts correctly too be becasue I admit we have done wrong in the past but what do you want us to do about it? kill ourselves? Give all of our money to other countries? This has never been done in the past and is life mate.
Why should I feel bad for things that were done by people 100's of years ago? lol
Continuing to drone on about things that happened before our great great grandfathers were born is stupid lol.
29Gixxer 1 year ago
@29Gixxer
Such magnanimity! Others come and intrude upon your turf, and a few years later you smile at them anyway and forget it all! WOW!
The Brits did what they did, so they had to face the consequences.
The original impact of what the Romans etc had done gradually faded over time. Maybe given enough time the same will hold true for what the Brits did to China, but 170 years ISN'T enough time. Sorry, mate.
As for the Japanese, yes, you bet, many Chinese still resent them.
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G
You just ignored what I said about the japs killing approx 20,000,000 Chinese from 1930 - 1945. They raped, stuck babies with bayonets, filled people with water and jumped up and down on them until they litterally burst. This wasn't even 100 year ago yet you have the audacity to speak of what we did 170 years ago hahaha. lol the Han have not forgotten this :)
29Gixxer 1 year ago
@S1587915G
Again you have not addressed what I had said. Many countries have done bad things and your just being selective in who you moan about (like our haters always do lol). I don't deny for one second the brits done some bad things but people like you are unwilling to accept this is true of all humans. Just look at what's going on around the world right now lmao.
29Gixxer 1 year ago
@29Gixxer
Selective?
The vid here just happens to be about the Brits, so I naturally focus on them here. If I focused on others instead, that would be just inappropriate. Right?
But I concede you do have a point about all human beings having been rotten at one point or another. The Chinese victimized the Vietnamese for centuries in the past, for example. And being Chinese I can tell you I don't feel good about this.
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G
Also...our societies are the most diverse on earth. Nowhere else (apart from brazil maybe) do you get sucha tollerance for different races. We tollerate allot here and the truth is that China would execute half of the scum we have in this country lol. We treat our immigrants better than what their homelands do hence the reason why they risk their lives to get to our shores...
29Gixxer 1 year ago
@29Gixxer
During the Tang Dynasty Arabs, Persians, Indians, Parthians etc etc were allowed to live in China. Some of them were even given high government positions. And the Jews have always been able to live happily in China in the past without fear of exploitation. Compare Europe.
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G
So you refer to the distant past when it suits your argument :0 Look at our societies now then compare them to Asian countries. We are way more tollerant and diverse. If Immigrants flooded Asian countries demanding what they do here there would be riots :)
29Gixxer 1 year ago
@29Gixxer
YOUR societies can AFFORD all the immigrants. And just where all the hard cash came from... I don't think I have to elaborate...
By the way, Singapore is pretty welcoming of immigrants.
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G
Also..to blame China's current oppressive regime on events that took place 170 years ago is just ridiculous...now that is definitely a get out clause :) Singapore is different to China in respect they have stronger ties to the west though. Your socity is more open than China's.
29Gixxer 1 year ago
@29Gixxer
It's like a series of dominoes. One event causes another, which in turn causes yet another, and so on. The original domino is still the culprit, even though it was placed 170 years up the line.
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G
So your saying that because of what happned 170 years ago...China now has the excuse to carry on as they are? WOW. That's like me saying that because we were invaded by the Normans...it changed us so now we can do as we please and just blame it on the Normans lol
29Gixxer 1 year ago
@29Gixxer
I'm not excusing China. The CCP stinks to high heaven and I long to see them either go or reform. I'm merely saying the Brits had a BIG hand in what has become of China today.
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G
I tend to believe that the world in general is currupt and it's a dog at dog situation. Had we of not done what we did then others would of. Germany for example still want an appology for Dresden although I don't think they will get one. The Queen recently told them where to go...in polite terms ofc.
29Gixxer 1 year ago
@29Gixxer
Well, if it were the Germans instead who did what the Brits did, then you can be sure it is the Germans whom the Chinese will hate today.
And until the Royal Household gives their apology to the Chinese people, sorry, that scar is going to stay in everyone's heart. I believe you know what I mean.
S1587915G 1 year ago
Although im sure you would of prefered a more benevolent form of Empire, like say the Japanese or the Germans...
smoochym 1 year ago
What is that the British did that was so awful anyway? Mao killled tens of millions of his own people at a whim, the Japanese conducted chemical experiments and live vivisections without anesthetic, but apparently it's the British everyone should hate...
smoochym 1 year ago
The Chinese people, especially the peasants, were even more cruelly oppressed by the Maoist phonies as the worst warlord, landlord or nobleman. The Maoist dirtbags made them all live in prisons called communes.
jakefree24 1 year ago
@jakefree24
It was because of the British intrusion in the first place that the Qing court eventually collapsed so that political opportunists could arise. One of them was called the CCP. They eventually seized power and brought China into her current situation.
S1587915G 1 year ago
@smoochym
As I explained in another post, the Brits exacted large amounts of 'anglogeld' from the Qing court which had a deleterious effect on the Chinese economy. Famines and peasant uprisings resulted and the whole country was in chaos. If that's not awful enough, then I don't know what is.
S1587915G 1 year ago
It wasn't even the British who introduced Opium, it was the Portugese. You're so hysterically wrong it's hilarious, please keep humoring us about how the British empire is to blame for all the worlds troubles.
smoochym 1 year ago
@smoochym
It was the Brits who peddled opium in large quantities to the Chinese, and resorted to armed violence when the Chinese said no.
S1587915G 1 year ago
I'll finish by saying all my words are pointless, the British Empire speaks for itself. It's neither good nor bad, but for people like the inhabitants of Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia it was clearly the best available alternative. Of course you're Chinese so you undoubtedly supported the communist uprising, but many people are glad the British we're there to defeat them, and Singapore and Malaysia are clearly better for it.
smoochym 1 year ago
@smoochym
Records show the Chinese had not done too poorly economically for a long time in history. Read the works of economic historian Angus Maddison. And I do not support the communist uprising FYI.
S1587915G 1 year ago
"Records show the Chinese had not done too poorly economically for a long time in history. "
If you consider subsistence farming to be okay. It's no coincidence that Hong Kong is the most prosperous and developed city in China, it's people have a gdp per capita (ppp) of $42,000 while the rest of China has somewhere around the $6,000 mark. Another ex colonoy Malaysia, has $14,000 compared with just $4,000 for Indonesia. I don't even need to tell you about Singapore...
smoochym 1 year ago
@smoochym
About Singapore, it was once a British colony, but at a certain point the Brits suddenly just left, deciding that Singapore couldn't be 'defended', the way South Korea was oh-so-heroically defended (as this vid chronicles). Talk about being responsible.
Singapore was now in deep sh*t. Thank Heaven a Chinese named Lee Kuan Yew came and led Singapore out of the sh*t.
Singapore has nothing to thank Britain for.
S1587915G 1 year ago
There you go embarassing yourself again...
"Even before independence in 1965, Singapore was already one of the richest states in East Asia due to its strategic location as a port. Singapore's GDP per capita in 1965 was $511, third highest in East Asia after Japan and Hong Kong"
smoochym 1 year ago
@smoochym
What you said about Singapore's GDP might be true, but it remains a fact all the same that at a certain point the Brits simply left Singapore in the lurch.
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G singapore voted to be independent and japan leaving korea split them in two so stop blaming westerners with your false facts
xASxDragoon 1 year ago
@xASxDragoon
So you're saying the Brits were all innocent angels and Asia had only herself to blame for all the chaos that arose since the early 19th century? Sure, right.
As I've explained, whatever the details of the facts may be, it remains the case that the West twisted Asia's geopolitical landscape in all sorts of ways wherebefore there had been few regional problems to my knowledge. Stop defending the West with your mythologies.
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G no im not saying that at all but we certainly take more blame than we should especially when most of the colonies we left behind are now the most prosperous countries in the world.
anyway burma(myanmar) singapore malaysia and hong kong were the only countries we had any involvement in east asia
xASxDragoon 1 year ago
@xASxDragoon
I think there are certain things called 'pride' and 'self-respect', the value of which outweigh any material benefits that being the subject of a colonial power might confer.
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G Yes the Brits have nothing to be sorry for, Asia was dominated because it was weak, the strong always dominate the weak. That's called human nature.
You could at least thank us for creating one of the more prosperous Asian nations....
GodwinCarpenter 1 year ago
@GodwinCarpenter
Not a problem. We'll remember this and repay the favor one fine day by 'helping' you become 'prosperous', too.
I suppose it's likewise human nature to congratulate oneself by retelling the story in a way that would cover one's butt.
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G Again I will say I'm not looking to "cover one's butt", we ruled you and made you prosperious. If your countrymen wanted to kick us out, which they didn't for the most part, they couldn't have because you were weak. Britain practically created the state of Singapore. So...... you're welcome.
GodwinCarpenter 1 year ago
@GodwinCarpenter
There's something called 'self respect' which gives one's independence and self-determination a higher value than material prosperity. The folks of Afghanistan know this; that's why they've repeatedly said to you Brits, "No, thanks, we'd rather be what you call poor and backward."
By the way, from what I read, your government is making more and more concessions to the Muslims. Seems you Brits are in for a Muslim takeover.
Have a nice day.
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G It's as I said, the Afghan's were strong and able to fight, that is why they were not conqured. I realise there are specific occasions where the traditional protocal doesn't apply, such as our creation of Singapore. I rather think your countrymen much prefered our fair rule compared to that of a distant sultan.
As for the governemnt thing you are totally right there, our government is criminal and has to be stopped.
GodwinCarpenter 1 year ago
@GodwinCarpenter
Britain and the rest of the world could have been friends. Your forefathers could have chosen not to do what they did in the past. BUT.
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G They made the right choice, we were the most powerful and rich empire in the world for a time, it's the descisions that cost us our empire that I regret.
GodwinCarpenter 1 year ago
@GodwinCarpenter
I never knew that killing or victimizing large numbers of innocent people who never had any gripe with you could ever have been part of a 'RIGHT' choice.
Talk about being twisted.
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G
So you now think that Muslim population of 3% is going to take over the UK? hmmm lol. It's about time you stop blaming everything on the west and sort youselves out mate. We are tired of whiping your asses for you. Western countries donate more to the 3rd world now than what China does and I won't even go into the issues surrounding human rights in China. We have tolerant, multicultural societies where as Asia/Africa doesn't...
29Gixxer 1 year ago
@29Gixxer
Quite evidently I've touched a raw nerve here. :)
I'm not blaming the West, just pointing out certain things you fellas did in the past of which a lot of people elsewhere are most highly appreciative. And just why they're so appreciative, I leave it to you to figure out.
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G
And as for your fantasy of Asia taking on the West...UK alone has double the amount of carriers that China has lmao. NATO has 19 carriers with another 3 being built. China has 1...Japan has 2 tiny 20,000 ton ships! All China has is a large conscripted army that they have recruited from junior school lol.
Combined Western GDP = 33 trillion...ish.
Combined Western defence budget = $1,200,000,000,000 ish
Good luck with that mate :0
29Gixxer 1 year ago
@29Gixxer
Turning things around might take a little time. That's all, really. No one is powerful forever, or weak forever.
Rome used to own almost all of the civilised world. What happened?
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G
It is true that empires come and go although you are not alking about an empire when referring to the wst...you are talking about a large chunk of the world. The truth is...before the East can catch up, we will hit what's called peak oil where we will all suffer.
29Gixxer 1 year ago
@29Gixxer
So we're all in this together, huh? :)
Thanks to something called the Industrial Revolution.
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G
Yep...the West started it lthough China nd India are now doing the same - i.e turning resource into economic wealth (money).
We will soon hit whats called peak oil (which is where the resves get below 50% and everyday means more enrgy/resoure to get that resource out) and then we are all fucked. Without oil...we go back 500 years...simply as mate.
29Gixxer 1 year ago
@29Gixxer
Hey, it was the West that compelled Asia to follow in her footsteps.
S1587915G 1 year ago
@S1587915G Romes Sphere of influence was nothing compared to the British Empires.
Badgerbitesback 8 months ago
@smoochym
To say that Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong etc have benefitted from what the Brits did is like saying that the children of a mother have benefitted from the care of a bandit who crippled the mother. The bandit believed the mother wasn't caring enough for the kids and HE could do a better job -- which is far from evident. Just look at what the whole ethos of modern industrial civilization is doing to the global environment.
S1587915G 1 year ago
The Germans under the Kaiser murdered hundreds of thousands of Chinese in retaliation for the death of 1 ambassador after the Boxer Rebellion. As well as they ruled the whole Shantung peninsula ruthlessly until WW l. The Kaiser exhorted his soldiers to be cruel and murderous to the Chinese. Show me where the Brits were that bad.
jakefree24 1 year ago
@jakefree24
Killing people is not the only way to be bad. Another way is to make their country weak and even make their government collapse, as a result of which rotten people with political ambitions would seize power and make life perpetual hell for the people. THIS is what the Brits did.
S1587915G 1 year ago
"rotten people with political ambitions would seize power"
Except of course that people realized that it was only under the British that they would ever get any resemblance of a stable and non corruptible government under which to trade freely, without monastic monopolies or having to bribe local officials. The old systems of trade in Asia damaged the local people the most, many weren't in favour with the monarchy so couldn't start business etc.
smoochym 1 year ago
@smoochym
In history the Chinese did pretty well economically at times. Commerce thrived during the Song Dynasty, for example. On the other hand, it's not clear to me if the British system can really prove that stable in the long run. Look at the current state of affairs in the West. And I have not mentioned its environmentally destructive aspects.
S1587915G 1 year ago
True, but weakness invites exploitation, and the British weren't the only or the bloodiest of them.
jakefree24 1 year ago