In Defense of WWII: Chapter 5 of 5

[Sconezeta]

haha firm but fair.. damn i miss CH

[nyomythus]

"Ask an Iraqi." That's the core of it. It depends on what Iraqi you ask. The jihadist, Americans get out. The Kurdish freedom fighter, praise be to George Bush! I didn't support or vote for Bush Jr. .. I'm happy Saddam is gone -- if you don't think that makes Iraq a better place then you know absolutely nothing, absolutely nothing, absolutely nothing about this topic. Absolutely nothing.

[chrstsldr]

@nyomythus "if you don't think that makes Iraq a better place then you know absolutely nothing, absolutely nothing, absolutely nothing about this topic. Absolutely nothing."

well, I guess it's true then; WAR IS PEACE.

[chrstsldr]

"The jihadist"

lol

[nyomythus]

@chrstsldr he he ho ho ho ho he he

[chrstsldr]

"a constitutional government in the heart of the ancient caliphate"

a new euphemism for an old fashion occupation, I guess. how big is that U.S. "embassy" again? ahaha!!

thanks for posting; very interesting discussion, but it still seems Buchanan is closer to the truth than these two.

[nyomythus]

@chrstsldr I don't think the Iraqis are occupying themselves is the right phrase, but you seem to think having a diplomatic presence in other countries amounts to an occupation. Solipsism is a hella drug brah.

[chrstsldr]

@nyomythus and what do you call the collective solipsism that believes we made Iraq a better place with our deadly force, with our poisonous legacy of DU, and with our "diplomatic presence" housed in a palace complex larger than the Vatican (and certainly larger than the local government buildings)?

and yes, 900 military bases in 130 countries amounts to a global occupation.

Ask an Iraqi. There is bad, and then there is hell.

keep tokin' on that spoon-feed paradigm my brother.

[SpinyNorman416]

@chrstsldr Yes, I have asked Iraqis. The Kurdish minority doesn't seem to think that US presence was was something to be scoffed at with loose talk about American Cowboyism. In fact they think that the US deposed a dictator who committed genocide against them and their families. They now live in a democracy and even with the many appalling blunders of the coalition forces in Iraq, Iraq is in a better state that it was under Saddam. Certainly not perfect but better.

[chrstsldr]

@SpinyNorman416 even after the Halabja massacre the US continued to supply Saddam with money and weapons.

US lack of outrage over the Halabja atrocity was made official with the defeat of the Prevention of Genocide Act of 1988 in the US Senate.

True, conditions under US puppet Saddam were horrible; who knew conditions could be worse. ...just ask one of the 5 million Iraqi refugees ...just ask any of the surviving Iraqis sodomized with electricity by US personnel in Abu Ghraib

[nyomythus]

@chrstsldr And we made amends, and reversed America Imperialism, for the mess we created .. the boon, no mega-rhwanda-like implosion and invasion from Arabia, Turkey, Iran into Iraq ... we avoided that meteor-collision of a blood bath, and the promise of a federal democracy and very very wealthy Iraqi and ...and ... the Arab Spring. The alternative was lingering legacy of Western Imperialism prevails.

[chrstsldr]

@nyomythus perhaps this story helps you sleep at night.

And, how is that Arab Spring going? Egypt got Omar Suleiman, another despot aligned with US interests and directly implicated in the CIA "rendition" program; meanwhile courageous Egyptian protestors are being slaughtered in the streets, and the US media is silent.

[nyomythus]

@chrstsldr You can't pretend to wish that democracy forces will ultimately be successful, when you've been rooting for the opposite to happen -- I'm glad that the conditions were changed to make it ''possible'', the future holds no guarantees.

[SpinyNorman416]

@chrstsldr You think the conditions in Abu Ghraib when it was run by the coalition was worse than under Saddam. That's idiotic. I would direct you to look up the torture committed by Baathist forces in that prison and then compare it to the crimes committed by the coalition forces. They are both disgusting criminal acts but no honest look would call the crimes committed by the coalition worse or even equivalent.

[chrstsldr]

@SpinyNorman416 these Ba'athists were CIA trained. under the "coalition" Abu Ghraib was controlled by the CIA. same thing. to say one brand of torture and humiliation is better than another is reaching at best.

[SpinyNorman416]

@chrstsldr So all forms of prisoner mistreatment are equal. Interesting, I thought that there was a difference between slapping a prisoner and making the same prisoner eat his own fingers. Also, although the CIA gave support and training to many Baathists (illegal in my opinion) they were also got training from another of other scumbags such as the Stasi. As much as you want to believe it these guys weren't a CIA cell. They were a bunch of sadists the CIA wanted to use against Iran.

[SpinyNorman416]

@chrstsldr I'm not really sure what I expected from a 9/11 truther but this isn't really surprising. Some people will go so far out of their way to create world spanning conspiracies and white wash the crimes of dictators just to make it look the the US is a bad guy. Saddam should never have been in power and American support for the dictator was a crime against all free peoples. This is not an argument for leaving him in power. This is an argument for earlier removal.

[chrstsldr]

@SpinyNorman416 ad hominem? really?

I've only stated facts not "conspiracies"; I've never defended Saddam.

Here is where we agree >>"Saddam should never have been in power and American support for the dictator was a crime against all free peoples"

Do you really think it was necessary for millions of Iraqis pay for our crimes w/ their limbs, their lives, their homes? Shock and awe, invasion, occupation was the only way? An embassy larger than the Vatican was the only way?

[SpinyNorman416]

@chrstsldr Yup, free elections suck. So do trials for war criminals. We should have just let Saddam keep his seat of power and run a terror state. He should have also been allowed to keep his chemical weapons program and continue working toward nuclear weapons. Who is the US to say that dictator who was breaking every international law should not have been in power? What does a stupidly large embassy have to do with the removal of a dictator?

[chrstsldr]

@SpinyNorman416 if the US embassy in Baghdad is larger than any Iraqi gov bldg, that is significant. imagine if the Chinese embassy in DC out scaled the US capital and white house by 10x of so...

scale and proportion are basic design principles in urban planning.

[SpinyNorman416]

@chrstsldr What it means is that the US has an overly large opinion of itself and feels the need to make a big building to show off. Is this surprising? As I recall US forces are out of Iraq. If the Iraqi people want to build a larger government building they're certainly allowed to but I think that the government has bigger issues rather than trying to one up a narcissistic government building is too large.

[chrstsldr]

@SpinyNorman416 if Iraq were truly a free society, the US could never have obtained the necessary permits to build such a gigantic complex of buildings.

[SpinyNorman416]

@chrstsldr That's not an argument and you know it. You seem to want to make the link from big embassy to puppet government so bad that you're making non sequiturs. What do you know of the building permits for embassies in Iraq? The US has a large opinion of itself and gobs of money, therefore large, ostentatious, eyesore of an embassy.

[chrstsldr]

@SpinyNorman416 it is not non sequitur; it is anecdotal evidence for the purpose of demonstrating who has the true power in Iraq and who has the ceremonial power in Iraq.

the symbolism of city planning is universal.

[SpinyNorman416]

@chrstsldr Also, I fail to see where I personally attacked you in lieu of an argument against your ideas.

[chrstsldr]

@SpinyNorman416 "I'm not really sure what I expected from a 9/11 truther but this isn't really surprising."

[SpinyNorman416]

@chrstsldr I stated the confirmation of my assumptions regarding the cognitive dissonance in your belief structure in relation to the Iraq war due to you're support of the 9/11 truth movement. This is a personal attack in lieu of argument? I'm sorry but if you consider this an attack on you personally but you may need to get a thicker skin and stop thinking that people are going after you, instead of your beliefs.

[chrstsldr]

@SpinyNorman416 "argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it."

[SpinyNorman416]

@chrstsldr "I stated the confirmation of my assumptions regarding the cognitive dissonance in your belief structure in relation to the Iraq war due to you're support of the 9/11 truth movement." This is relevant to the discussion due to its implications for world politics in particular war in the Middle East. If you don't think that 9/11 is relevant or that I said, "Your a 9/11 truther so I don't have to believe what you say" perhaps I was unclear.

[chrstsldr]

@SpinyNorman416 I have no belief structure regarding 9/11 or the invasion or Iraq. simple and objective observation of the events and acknowledgement of the historical timeline is not "conspiracy theory".

[chrstsldr]

@SpinyNorman416 cognitive dissonance is believing a 110 story building can fall in 10 seconds as a result of damage done the 92nd/98th and 78th/84th floors.

one thousand one = 10 stories ...it didn't even slow down at the bottom floors.

the recent 20 story explosive demolition (months of careful planning and placement) in Houston took about 6 seconds to fall.

you don't have to be a physicist to figure this one out.

[SpinyNorman416]

@chrstsldr No you don't need to be a physicist but you may have took look at reports and work outside the truth movement. The building fell in 19 seconds which has been consistently shown and agreed upon. Only those in the truth movement seem to hold onto this 10 second figure.

[chrstsldr]

@SpinyNorman416 you do not need to rely on any report. find footage of the event on youtube and count for yourself.

[chrstsldr]

@SpinyNorman416 Saddam could never have come to power without the CIA's support of the Ba'ath Party. Saddam's rise to power began with the assassination of Kassem and 800 members of the communist party; target list and training courtesy of the US.

[SpinyNorman416]

@chrstsldr Yet again, stupid, insane and the people who supported it should be prosecuted. This is not an argument for leaving the maniac in power.

[migkillertwo]

incredibly fast whit hitchens has there. I LOLed at "Stalin, firm but fair"

[NJburbsSeeker]

Very interesting, thank you for posting this. The more I hear about Buchanan's views the less I can stand the man.

[Bluelion1971]

I really enjoyed this.

[Andybaby]

wheres David Irving?

[nyomythus]

US tour : DAVID IRVING will visit forty cities in the Eastern USA from October 1, 2009 to talk about HITLER, HIMMLER, AND ENIGMA: Re-writing WW2 history using Nazi messages decoded by the British secret service. The tour begins with Pittsburgh (Oct 2) and Cleveland (Oct 4)

[altrane40]

Thank you for posting!

[GroundskeeperRonnie]

A fantastic discussion. First class posting.

[bigcherry99]

Stalin: Firm, but firm. hahahaaaaa!!!!!!!!!

[Guedingen]

Many thanks

[zasterguava]

Watched this for Chris Hitchens. The other guy is very uninspiring.

[jeremyshambles]

a really informative and intriguing discussion, thanks for sharing , cheers

[domstapleton]

Thanks for uploading these, nyomythus. Very interesting indeed!