HornWorm Haven

[FluffyPonBomb]

My name is Rebecca too, and when my father found a little hornworm on our habaneroes, i had to hunt a tomato plant down and let the little fellow go.

[Automeris]

Cool cat! That's a tobacco hornworm, larva of the six-spotted hawkmoth. Beautifully camouflaged. I enjoyed reading the banter between Combine and Homeo. Both have some interesting comments. I'm with Combine on this one. I like sphingids!

[CombineWizard]

Nope, just the normal placement of leaves on the stems. This is typical of late summer as Daturas tend to drop more leaves too. I cannot tell what the plant is behind the Dat-either a shoot or something else, well fed on. There's a dead calyx still clinging to fruit, in the foreground.

[homeostasis4me]

My point is, don't tell me I'n going to get cancer from using pesticides, when you grow deadly plants commonly used to get high (and your neighbor's grandkids will know what it is, if they are so inclined to experiment with drugs" by kids..D Inoxia is as deadly as nightshade; would you grow that, because you thought the black fruit looked nice?And come to Tennessee, we have all the sphinx moths you could ever want....except for the ones that make the mistake of gnawin' on my 'maters. I like 'em.

[CombineWizard]

No kids around here. Sre, some want to get high on moonseeds. That's dangerous like meth. Drugs! Grrr! Using Datura to get high on, is like the Indians around here that drink isopropyl and distillates, get drunk and DIE!

[homeostasis4me]

That's sad...we screwed those people, and good...no excuse for killing yourself by drinkin' that crap, though....

[bekados]

The only larva I have seen this year was attacked by a biting fly. I have never seen such a thing happen. I tried to move the larva to safety but have my doubts as to its survival. I'm sure there are more on my tomatoes somewhere. We do love our sphinx moths around here. As a child in Louisiana, we would sit on the porch at night and watch them on the 4 o'clock bushes.

[CombineWizard]

The white-lined sphinx, another favorite and never a crop pest, is common, but not abundant in Oklahoma. Still, I fear its decline is not only due to habitat loss, but the imported tachinid fly as well.

Mirabilis is a favorite food plant for Hyles lineata. Oh dear, Homeo, the toxic plant warden, will bust you for your toxic Mirabilis!

[homeostasis4me]

I think maybe I got you confused with someone else....sorry...

[bekados]

Hmmm...I see this little video has just sparked a debate. The only comment I have refers to the invasiveness of the datura. From my giant plant last year, I only got two seedlings. Very likely it could be invasive a zone or two down but the seedlings are easy to identify and pull out.

Turns out, datura is a companion plant to pumpkins.

[CombineWizard]

Bekados, your D. inoxia is quite harmless and non-invasive as are most NATIVE plants. Yes, on the offspring. I have only 10 surviving "pups" from 2 plants, both 3-4 years old. Long-lived perennials need not be over-reproductive.

Manduca sphinx are threatened in Oklahoma, thanks to a non-native parasite. In 2 years, not a one on either Datura, and 8 from 13 or so tomato plants. All 8 collected larvae were parasitized. This is NOT good! We need our sphinx moths!

[homeostasis4me]

You are incorrect, Inoxia is considered a harmful invasive in many parts of the country, indeed, the seeds contaminate foodcrop yeilds upon harvest (as does your jimsonweed,cwiz; they are the same genus), and YES, it is dangerous. VERY. Ever hear of scopolomine or ATROPINE?

[CombineWizard]

If you paid more attention to a prior comment, I identified them a Datura. inoxia and D. stramonium.

Yes, I'm very aware of atropine, common in many solanaceous plants. It is also used pharmaceutically, too, as are many alkaloids, acids and other phytochemicals.

[homeostasis4me]

"the alkaloids of this plant are very similar to those of mandrake,henbane, and deadly nightshade"...WIKIPEDIA...quit­e harmless, INDEED.....

[homeostasis4me]

The datura genera are deadly.

[homeostasis4me]

"D innoxia, like other Datura species, contains the highly toxic alkaloids atropine,scopolomine,and hyoscyamine" "the plant is now considered an invasive species in many locations" "Is also considered a potential seed contaminent" "all parts of the plant are toxic, including the seeds".... WIKIPEDIA..... combinewizard is lying to you,bekados...

[homeostasis4me]

BTW folks, that Inoxia is considered an INVASIVE SPECIES.....just saying......also considered a seed contaminant, worse in my book because when you plant these and they invade foodcrops, the pods get harvested and the highly poisonous seeds end up in, you guessed it, YOUR FOOD....you're exposing the rest of us to scopolomine and atropine by propogating this invasive,dangerous plant....

[CombineWizard]

Maybe so, but to most farmers in the Midwest and central Plains have D. stramonium, the common "jimsonweed," to contend with. It's not as "invasive" as you seem to put it, Homeo, because we have far worse plants we call invasive, and are classified as "noxious"

by all states with weed control laws. Some examples given, are johnson grass, musk thistle, Canada thistle and leafy spurge. LS is also toxic. The musk thistle is the only one, spread by seed-only.

[CombineWizard]

The only crop I've ever seen where any jimsonweed [the only 'invasive' Datura], is grain sorghum. This is only because the sorghum [aka 'milo' or 'maize'] seeds match the basic size/weight of milo seeds. A combine just can't tell the difference and will bin them with the milo!

Fortunately, sorghum is not directly consumed in the US, but is made into stock feed. The cows will get sick before we do.

[homeostasis4me]

Where the hell do you get your facts from,cwiz?Do you just make this crap up as you go?Ever hear of soughum molasses?I buy it every season...milo seeds are 5 times larger than jimsonweed seeds....jimsonweed seeds are black,milo is red...where do you come up with this crap?

[CombineWizard]

I was talking GRAIN sorghum. Yes, I've harvested it for years, although very rarely ever encountered jimson. Nevermind the seed color. Combines are colorblind. Milo and jimson seeds ARE like-sized!

Cane syrup will not at risk of contamination by Datura. The herbage, not seedheads are used, and the [green] crop is still largely hand or sicklebar-cut, any unwanted vegetation is simply outsorted.

[homeostasis4me]

Johnsongrass is not toxic.A real problem, yes, as is thistle and spurge, as well as a myriad of others....my point is, don't rail on me to discontinue using malathion when you intentionally grow deadly poisonous plants, plants that are ALSO commonly used by kids today to get high (and often inadvertantly poisoned, to boot)..

[CombineWizard]

So? I NEVER said j-grass was toxic. It's a noxious [illegal/invasive] weed in all states with weed laws. Oklahoma does not have weed laws.

By the way, I never said anything about using Malathion. I've cut for many farmers who have used it. Big deal. Combines don't get cancer.

Don't rail me for having two Daturas in my yard, either. Being toxic, does not make them a crime. Many common ornamentals are also toxic. You act like we're going to sell the farmers market or serve them with dinner.

[homeostasis4me]

Again, sorry, I thought you were someone else...I'm a goober...and BTW, farmers ROCK, we'd be in deep doo-doo without them, and you guys don't get the recognition you deserve; after all, we'd be hungry and naked (or wearing polyester) if you folks did'nt risk it every year....thanks for that...

[CombineWizard]

I'm only a small mkt produce grower. I used to make the harvest run and cut for farmers.

[homeostasis4me]

An honorable profession, that is...I came up growing soybeans and pulling calves...still keep yardbirds and try to grow as much produce as we need....not very good at it, I have a BROWN thumb, but we still get lots of fresh veggies....

[CombineWizard]

Forgot to comment on your location--Tenn. That does explain a lot. Hornworms not as common west of Miss River. Yes, the tobacco culture has given this insect a bonanza as well.

As for the sweet sorghum, again it's such a specialy crop, it still evades most mechanical harvesting. I would be most hard-pressed to get my head and reel high enough to efficiently combine Dale or any other tall sorgo.

Soybeans and corn do very well in Tenn. Before RR beans, black nightshade was a mess.

[Automeris]

I don't grow "organic," but sustainable.

In a way, I guess I do prune beans. Pick some, more grow back.

Larvae are NOT the pollinators. It's the adult moths, butterflies, bees, wasps, flies and anything else.

In a patch of 200 or so tom plants, I may see only 50 hornworms. If you have a bunch of them [infestation] then you have to live in the eastern US.

[homeostasis4me]

I just pulled 12 off of my FOUR PLANTS a week and a half ago.....Who cares where I live? They don't....I sprayed them, just the same...

[CombineWizard]

You are right on! Yes, you've not only correctly identified my friend, the tobacco hornworm, but by keeping this magnificent insect alive, he/she will not only reward you the moth, but that moth [in this case the six-spotted] will in turn, POLLINATE your Datura inoxia, thus completing a unique cycle. Yes, it's mutualistic symbiosis!

[homeostasis4me]

And eat all your tomatoes in the process......Malathion, anyone?

[PrairieDancer]

No to the toxic Malathion! Those big cats will NOT eat the tomatoes. In fact, on established plants, these cats [in moderation] will benefit producers by "pruning" excess foliage, which is what tomato plants need, in order to throw more fruit.

I will NOT eat tomatoes treated with Malathion.

[homeostasis4me]

Yes, they WILL eat the 'maters, and yes, the whole damn plant. And if you live in just about any city, if you wear cotton, you are exposed to malathion. Spray the plants, wash the tomatoes. I have never grown a tomato plant that had "excess" foliage, never seen one that "needed pruning"; that's, well, STUPID. Picking the fruit is all that is needed to keep the 'maters coming...come tell the hornies here they don't like the fruit...

[Automeris]

You must not live in central US. Here, a lot of people prune tomatoes in home gardens.

I am not a fan of Malathion, either. I know cotton shirts do not carry this, stuff, after the many washings. Malathion is very toxic to vertebrates as well as insects. Use Bt for caterpillars instead.

Like others here, I've never seen the sphinx larvae eat any fruit in the ripening stages, but birds, slugs and sowbugs will sure get into ripe fruit. In my region, we have a serious pest, the fruitworm.

[homeostasis4me]

Do you prune your beans to keep them fruiting?No, you simply pick the pods, right?Bt?What about letting the worms"pollinate" your plants?HUH?Use the malathion,Bt,whatever.If you let the hornies live,that's your choice.I poison the boogers and WASH THE FRUIT.Easy...Guess what the 'maters you buy at the grocer are treated with?You wash them, no?I don't see the problem...You cut toads and other vertebrates up every time you mow,but you mow anyway, right?Why act worried about the backboners?

[homeostasis4me]

Every time you buy tomatoes from the grocer, you buy fruit treated with a neurotoxic insecticide.Every time you smell the mosquito spray your city treats it's streets with, you breath in Malathion.Every cotton field in this nation has been treated with Malathion over the past few years; it's called the "boll weevil eradication program", look it up....you pay for it, too....they spray the stuff right to the edge of my yard from planes....i have chickens, they free range and eat bugs;no probs.....

[Automeris]

I do NOT buy comm, store-bought Calif cardboard balls sold as "tomatoes!"

Kansas has so little cotton anyway. I have huge issues with commercial pesticides--insecticides. No, I don't chop toads as I mow.

The tomato fruitworms are exactly the same species as your bollworm. Also is the corn earworm. NASTY!

Larvae are not the pollinators. The moths and butterflies, bees, wasps and even flies, are.

The reason we grow home gardens is to get away from harmful chemicals.

[PrairieDancer]

Combine is right, Homeo. Those hornworms really are symbiotic to that datura plant and I'm darned sure NOT going to eat any part of that toxic plant! Yuck!

I live in [central west] Kansas and we just don't have many tomato worms.

California cardboard. LOL! Good analogy.

I have a garden. No chemicals or Bt.

Homeo, get away from those toxic chemicals before you get cancer or something!

[homeostasis4me]

Prariedancer, don't grow invasive,seed conaminating neurotoxic plants in your yard before you kill your neighbor's kids or something!Why would you grow something that could inadvertantly poison a wandering child, something which is an INVASIVE SPECIES which throws poisonous seeds that eventually enter the food chain when the plant grows in our fields and is harvested with our crops?There are sooo many other plants to grow, why would you intentionally grow a deadly plant?Insecticides, INDEED.....

[homeostasis4me]

Why would anyone against pesticides grow any datura species intentionally? Ever hear of atropine? Would you grow poison hemlock or Poison hen's bane?I don't get it; with all the ornamental plants available, why would someone sooooo against neurotoxic pesticides grow a DEADLY plant on purpose, just waiting there for the neighbor's grandkids to make peashooters out of...I don't get it. Why not grow something else?Personally, I kill every hemlock and common nightshade I see on my property.....