I don't agree with your whole..."Let's let the really sick people go ahead and die.." thing. I care about human life and really want single-payer universal health care for EVERYBODY, including the really sick. Preventative medicine is good, but sometimes cancer and other diseases just happen anyway without known cause. We can't just let them die because of it. That's so morally wrong!
Get out of war, get rid of private HI (people keep their premium and co-pay money), adopt Single-payer Universal HI (with 2% to 3% tax increase), use that money for health care ONLY and not fund the military or pork with it. I think we can do it.
...
Dennis Kucinich 2008!! If you care about health care check out HR 676 Bill and see SICKO!
First of all, Sicko is a slanted, one-sided, biased portrayal of single-payer systems. Don't let someone else do the research for you: go and ASK Canadians what they think about their healthcare. Do some digging and see the statistics from the French government on their system. Ask any British people oyu meet how they like their health system.
Secondly, it is unconstitutional to force a socialized system on all Americans. Nowhere in the Constitution does it grant this power to the federal gov't
I've had my my own personal experiences, as others I know have, with the U.S. health care system. I have also did my own digging and I know all the facts and I still say HR 676 is the best route for us. It's unethical to let people die all around you because of medical cost. The constitution does promote general welfare. Look it up.
Think about it...Can you pay for your own medical expenses all on your own? That's why insurance companies were supposedly started. It was based on a socialized way for people to pay for our medical system. Unfortunately, private insurance has middlemen (CEO's and stockholders). These people can only make money if people are denied care. We need to get middlemen out of the insurance system, which is where HR 676 comes into the picture. It won't be socialized medicine, only socialized insurance.
Third, capitalism has worked to rapidly reduce costs of new technology in the other 5/6 of our economy...it will work for health care too. The only reason socialized healthcare was ever adopted was due to massive shortages in employees during and after World War 2. Employers were allowed to offer fringe benefits to entice employees pre-tax.
However, this practice is not sustainable and encourages maintenance of status quo rather than innovation. It's just plain stupid in a capitalist system!
Government is an entity it has been given life and does not want to die or become smaller it wants to grow and control and make slaves to it and take care of the ones that feed it.
"The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them." - Mark Twain
It will stay the same the poor get nothing and this guy is full of crap I make less than 30,000 and have a wife and 2 children and pay 500 a month for rent insurance is 700 to 800 a month I only bring in 1600 a month my whole family is screwed
Again saying it is broken, isn't saying that nationalized health care is going to fix it. Nobody thinks the health care system is good now, so stop thinking everyone who disagrees with you agrees with the current system.
Look at the Congressional Budget Committees yearly economic outlook. It will show you that the government is growing every year as a percent of GDP. Obviously the government is becoming more and more involved with our lives, to our detriment.
Agreed. Hopefully we can work out a solution. Nice debating you shovland, sorry if I come off harsh sometimes, but I believe strongly in my thoughts, which I'm sure you do as well. I don't think either of us will ever come to a consensus, but it is nice talking to you, making me reason out my own beliefs. What I do believe we agree on, is we both want the best for everyone. Our disagreement lies in the path to that goal.
What??? Doctors do not drive you to the drive throughs. Your statement about the doctors in this country is just completely mind blowing and ludicrous. A 5 year old in this country knows fast food is bad yet we still go and eat it everyday. Has nothign what so ever to do with the doctors. Go find a doctor that will tell you it's ok to eat fast food then come back and make your argument. Rediculous!
Maybe, Maybe not. What does it matter? With my own health care money I can take it and pay whatever doctor of my choosing for whatever care I want and not have to worry about paying for you to go. Get your own care. We share health care. I guess the next step would be to pay all of our money into the government and everyone gets the same pay no matter their career?
The founding fathers made sure that everyone had a right to the pursuit of happiness and personal success. Is it up to the government to tell us the what the limit of success is. If my business is kicking butt and I'm doing it by ethical means it is none of the governments' business IMO. "Unethical" means of competitive advantage should be tended to. Our economy is going down the drain because of government regulation and interference.
I challenge any one watching this video to give me one instance where the American people complained to the government about changing a "Free Market" industry. I also challenge you to provide one Government run industry that has not had issues. Do we really want "FEMA" healthcare????
WATCH SICKO BY MICHAEL MOORE! Anyone who thinks Universal Healthcare is bad or that Canadanians come here for healthcare needs to watch this. He goes to UK, Canada and France and shows how much better things are for them than they are for us! Healthcare Saving Programs are a joke! How do you expect poor people who can barely feed their children to save up for expensive medical procedures? In a Universal Healthcare plan, doctors get paid MORE for the quality of work they do!
That is all completely "number games". If you want to run your numbers why don't you give us real facts on population comparison, causes of death percentage? How many of these infants in the united states die from lack of health car quality. Hell I can say India has more people die than any other country in the world each day. That doesn't say anything about their healthcare, crime, disease rate, nothing. Why? Because they have the largest population. Quit playing "number games".
Yeah they are big numbers but it does not necessarily reflect health care. Drug, Aids, all types of things can effect that. This country eats more fast food than any other in the world. That has nothing to fo with health care! As I said, if you want to run your number games give us some facts. Support my argument with claims and beliefs? This is fact my friend! If you can't handle it maybe you should read up a little more on what you're arguing.
Our diet has everything to do with healthcare, as it is a major cause of health problems in this country, and doctors know almost nothing about nutrition.
Michael Moore is a disgrace. If you are gullable enough to believe anything that comes out of his mouth or produced by him then that your problem. Go to these countries and find out for yourself. There have been videos brought back from cube of hospital IN THE CAPITAL where the rooms had COTS! Canada is lacking staff and supplies tremendously through out the provinces. Taking Michael Moore's word for anything is like taking the word of Michael Vick on dog cruelty.
The third world countries with lower infant mortality rates have those because the statistics are given by the government which lies. Do you really expect dictators to tell you the truth? Cuba doesn't even count babies that die within the first 2 days as ever living.
Just because a country has a higher life expectancy is not a direct reflection of that countries of health care system. Although there is one thing that we agree on. Our current system is a mess and needs to be changed. IMO, and alot of others, the Hillary Care way of changing it will make matters worse for this country. Especially with national debt, hospital supplies, staff, etc. Ron Paul's way is constitutional. Anything ran completely privately by free market has worked.
Spain is not obese, doesn't get into hundreds of thousands of car accidents, doesn't murder people as much. Saying they live longer doesn't say they have better health care.
And did you just say to get a free market you need a lot of regulation? That is an oxymoron.
Everyone should also be accountable for providing their own health care account! We the people support We the people. We the people do not support you the individual. It just doesn't work.
If you think you don't need other people I challenge you to go off into the wilderness by yourself and see how long you survive. You can take everything you can carry on your back. But no cell phone or radio or GPS.
So you think the people of the united states are responsible for shelling out their hard earned money if I up and decided to risk my life in the wilderness?
I do get the point completely. You're saying tax dollars should be put together to take of the people no matter how they take care of their bodies. That is a socialistic view. Maybe you are a socialist! Maybe you should be arrested under Bush's precious Patriot Act.
You would be surprised what is a violation of the Patriot act. =) And you do come off with socialists ideologies. I wouldn't be surprised if bush had Ron Paul and all of us supporters locked up. We're talking revolution. We are terroists in the eyes of the media. Rediculous. And with the patriot act, they have every means of doing so. Which is scary.
It is unconstitutional to force the citizens of the united states to pay money for others' needs. Any thing government controled that is to "help" the people never works. I challenge you to name anything that the government controls that has actually been a success! Government controled departments and policies are the reason borrow 4 billion dollars A DAY from China. They could bring us to our knees at any time.
That is a state government department. Not Federal. And besides why not go and look up all the people in West Virginia who have to have 18 wheelers bring in their water! Ask them about government run departments! I'm still waiting for your argument. You mentioned the Iraq war. I asked for that works not one thats failed.
The entire point of the constitution is to protect state law and limit federal government. That's what Ron Paul is all about. The state has the right to legalize or illeglize Homosexual marriage. They have the right to legalize or illegalize drugs. The vote of the people at the state level is what matters. Taxes or no taxes? But only state. No federal is constitutional. Only laws that are for the better good of society should be federal. Like Murder, abortion, which is murder, etc.
Are you kidding about SS and Medicare working? Are these people recluse? The government is completely in debt. I'm paying into a system that will have no money when I retire. The government is too incompetent to run those types of systems, let me take care of my own money.
The problem in West VA is not drought, their water is polluted from coal mining and the federal government does nothing.
Thats just the thing my friend. The rich. Whats the definition? For years democrats have been throwing around this word rich and won't give their definition. As a business owner, I can tell you they're getting their fair share. The thing is, NO ONE should have to pay ANY SHARE. IT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL! If we quit spending money over seas, get rid of these rediculous depts. (Homeland Security??? Our Homeland Security needs to come home!) then we would be out of the mess we're in.
A corporation is a legal entity and is taxed as so. When that's said and done all of the shareholders who profit on what's left are taxed as so. The "rich" as you call them are getting hit just as much as those who are on a payroll. Double the tax bracket on your income and you can see the percentage. The difference is, they make more money. The rich get richer because they're already rich. They got that way because they obviously were smart entrepreneurs. Whats wrong with that?
No, most wealth is inherited and the rich always attempt to sweeting their piece by getting tax laws changed. They have been very successful under Bush. I think you may be buying into a myth.
No I am not. The rich literally are paying more taxes than any other class in America. Most of our taxes are not paid for by the middle or lower class. Look it up. U.S. Treasury Department. You seem like you are living in a cloud.
And why do you believe that the rich somehow create the poor? Economics is not a zero sum game. The pie to grab is not a fixed size. If anything the rich help the poor by providing jobs, investments, etc.
The corporate rich get richer because they write off everything, meals, transportation, housing, medical care, and they make large amounts on executive salaries and CEO stock options... by the time they pay taxes the have everything paid for so 50% the pay is a pittance compared to a family earning 20, 30 , 40 k per year who pay 28-35 percent in taxes then pay for transportation, housing, food, and medical care...after taxes not before like the kings of the corporate world.
That is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard. Take away write offs and corporate America is no more poorer than before. Take away write offs and watch the price you pay for goods and services sky rocket because of expenses. Way to go smart guy.
So penalize the rich because they were more successful than you? An individual can write off just as much, just that business owners have more to write off. Go get your own success bud, or go to China and see how Communism works for you. "The rich getting richer" is not the poverty problem. The problem is inflation, which is caused by the federal reserve and they do it because of this massive debt we're in which was produced this countries idiocity of global intervention.
One more thing. I'm a consultant and I travel extensively. I could track my travel expenses and write them off at the end of the year. If I did I would go out of business. I can't afford to. I have to charge my clients travel expenses. Be thankful that Corporate America tracks their expenses and write them off at the end of the year instead of tacking them on to the prices you pay with your 13 cent dollar. Think before judgement.
Besides, no one should be taxed at the federal level. No entities, corps or individuals. It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL! It was voted as unconstitutional in 1913 but the IRS and federal reserve were created anyway. If we get out of this building of an empire which is also unconstitutional we would need to tax any one at the federal level!
It's wonderful that this lady got stitched for free and good quality (I'm assuming). She was lucky. Universal healthcare will only turn hospitals and care officed into Helth Care DEPARTMENTS. No way of maximizing profits leads to companies not giving a crap about quality. I'd much rather have a free market health care system and pay LESS THAN WE ARE NOW to get an operation besides having bubba do it after all the would be doctors skip out on Med School because there's no money in it.
That is just not true. Why do you think canadiens come here to get their health care? Beacause they have to stand in long lines for low quality! If it were true that profit motivation incites denying people healthcare. NOT TRUE. Or else there would be no traffic ticket lawyers. They would cut corners and only provide care to those with bigger cases right? Wrong! Where there's money to be made there's companies being established in a capitalistic market.
I disagree with you. Universal health care is institutionalized robbery, and not a birth right. It is not my responsibility to take care of you, because I was more able to provide for myself.
Wow. Old world view. How about new world view. All you want is more of the same. Whats next? Universal housing, and universal food services? Pretty soon people will have no incentives to work at all!
How? From what I've seen, most companies have an incentive to provide quality, or they go out of business. If they do provide poor service, I always have the option to take my business elsewhere. How am I going to have that option in a government run monopoly health care system? And how is the government going to provide any better service?
Yes. I've been a saver/debt reducer my whole life. It allowed me to weather a personal finacial crisis without losing my home. I was forced to take on debt during that time. I've greatly reduced the debt to the point where I'm close to being able to invest in securities again. I'm also a graduate student and classes cost $500 a month each. I consider tuition an investment because I will double my income in two years.
Yes. I don't quite understand how your pieces fit together.
If you are talking medical savings accounts, do you have the $50,000 it takes to pay for heart bypasses of the $350,000 we typically spend on cancer patients?
NPR did a show where they interviewed a doctor who does not take insurance. Because of this, he doesn't have to pay people to process the paper work. He spends more time with patients and gives them better care. He only charges $40 and makes more money than his colleagues. His system is cheaper than the insurance system and it is definitely cheaper than socialized medicine. If you get "free" care from the government you also get taxes that are more money than the care.
Insurance only works for things that are unlikely to happen--like a tornado tearing down your house. Most old people need expensive care, most young people don't. So how do we cover expensive care for the lowest cost while getting the highest quality? Here is the plan.....
Since it is unlikly that a young person will need a heart bypass, such events are insurable in young people for a small anount of money. My girl friend buys her own high deductable plan for a very small amount of money. For older people the plann is different.....
If you start a tax sheltered health savings account at the age if 18 and saved $100 a month, you would have $465,983 in your account when you were 55 years old. Since it is your money, if you get cancer you will ask about prices when you go to the hospital. The hospital will be equipped to give you answers about price ahead of time because everyone will be asking about prices. The hospital will be more efficient and it won't cost $350,000 for your cancer care.
All I say Is If I get sick, smoke to much while drinking and driving to the "free clinic", then they tell me I'm dieing, for the love of God come across with the Pain Pills. How fucking much could that cost? Idiots
I would support that. In Europe a number of countries provide basic health care on a national basis and people buy supplementals for things that the national program doesn't provide. I think smokers should be required to buy supplementals even under our present system, or else be limited to little more than pain relief.
The government is not to decide who gets healthcare and who does not. The care can be provided by the individuals themselves. It is not anyones moral responsibility to give all they own and sacrifice their own life and the lives of their children for someone who did not make preparations for emergency healthcare situations.
Presently the private companies decide who gets care and who doesn't. They have decided that 50 million Americans don't matter. Could the govt do worse?
Solution: take the government totally out of healtcare, deregulate healthcare, let FREE MARKET economics take over and drive the price down and the quality up. Works every time.
No we have a pseudo-free market. People who provide services to others for a fee are being stripped of their autonomy and, therefore, are not in a free market. Any regulations on a free market are contradictory to the definition of a free market. These regulations are what concentrate the power and hinder entrance into the market. Try to get a license to sell gasoline and tell me the market is free.
But all of this is really moot anyway. The US Constitution prohibits the government from meddling in the affairs of healthcare, as well as any other services not specifically granted to it by the Constitution. This necessarily and eternally prohibits the federal government from doing anything about healthcare, whatsoever.
except we have the federal government in all kinds of things that the constitiion doesn't allow. They are in health care already. medicare, medicade, s chip
In Europe, people over 65 who have issues that require open heart surgery are frequently left unattended and die due to the "financial inconsistencies" of keeping them alive.
Why spend the money to keep them alive when you could spend the money to help finance the intensive care of a toddler involved in a car crash? How about 50 years old?
The federal government shouldn't even be able to legislate on the matter of euthanasia. It's a personal choice.
dyssolve 4 years ago
I don't agree with your whole..."Let's let the really sick people go ahead and die.." thing. I care about human life and really want single-payer universal health care for EVERYBODY, including the really sick. Preventative medicine is good, but sometimes cancer and other diseases just happen anyway without known cause. We can't just let them die because of it. That's so morally wrong!
odetomy 4 years ago
solution:
Get out of war, get rid of private HI (people keep their premium and co-pay money), adopt Single-payer Universal HI (with 2% to 3% tax increase), use that money for health care ONLY and not fund the military or pork with it. I think we can do it.
...
Dennis Kucinich 2008!! If you care about health care check out HR 676 Bill and see SICKO!
odetomy 4 years ago
First of all, Sicko is a slanted, one-sided, biased portrayal of single-payer systems. Don't let someone else do the research for you: go and ASK Canadians what they think about their healthcare. Do some digging and see the statistics from the French government on their system. Ask any British people oyu meet how they like their health system.
Secondly, it is unconstitutional to force a socialized system on all Americans. Nowhere in the Constitution does it grant this power to the federal gov't
MentorOfMinos 3 years ago
I've had my my own personal experiences, as others I know have, with the U.S. health care system. I have also did my own digging and I know all the facts and I still say HR 676 is the best route for us. It's unethical to let people die all around you because of medical cost. The constitution does promote general welfare. Look it up.
odetomy 3 years ago
Think about it...Can you pay for your own medical expenses all on your own? That's why insurance companies were supposedly started. It was based on a socialized way for people to pay for our medical system. Unfortunately, private insurance has middlemen (CEO's and stockholders). These people can only make money if people are denied care. We need to get middlemen out of the insurance system, which is where HR 676 comes into the picture. It won't be socialized medicine, only socialized insurance.
odetomy 3 years ago
Third, capitalism has worked to rapidly reduce costs of new technology in the other 5/6 of our economy...it will work for health care too. The only reason socialized healthcare was ever adopted was due to massive shortages in employees during and after World War 2. Employers were allowed to offer fringe benefits to entice employees pre-tax.
However, this practice is not sustainable and encourages maintenance of status quo rather than innovation. It's just plain stupid in a capitalist system!
MentorOfMinos 3 years ago
We have an epidemic of diabetes that is mostly due to self-neglect.
The effects of heart bypass surgery is temporary.
Yes, there are congenital conditions we should treat, but we also need to make people more responsible for taking care of themselves.
I really don't think we owe smokers very much if they get sick.
shovland 4 years ago
Government is an entity it has been given life and does not want to die or become smaller it wants to grow and control and make slaves to it and take care of the ones that feed it.
"The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them." - Mark Twain
olmosm1 4 years ago
A best, government is a tool of our collective will.
shovland 4 years ago
It will stay the same the poor get nothing and this guy is full of crap I make less than 30,000 and have a wife and 2 children and pay 500 a month for rent insurance is 700 to 800 a month I only bring in 1600 a month my whole family is screwed
krullnigkiller 4 years ago
Every other civilized country considers health care to be a birthright.
shovland 4 years ago
That is not an argument. Every country has serial killers as well. Doesn't mean they're good.
toolshed333 4 years ago
We don't need to make argument. We just need to make policy.
shovland 4 years ago
? You seem to say a lot without saying anything at all.
toolshed333 4 years ago
Tell me why a national health care system would be worse than what we have now?
I'm inside the health care industry and most people inside it think it is broken. What is your expertise?
shovland 4 years ago
Again saying it is broken, isn't saying that nationalized health care is going to fix it. Nobody thinks the health care system is good now, so stop thinking everyone who disagrees with you agrees with the current system.
toolshed333 4 years ago
What is your solution?
shovland 4 years ago
deregulation
toolshed333 4 years ago
That has already failed.
shovland 4 years ago
Your system has failed. The system is currently highly regulated.
toolshed333 4 years ago
Cialdini, in his book on Influence, says failure only causes people to become more confirmed in their beliefs.
The past 30 years has seen much reduction of regulation, to the detriment of all of us except the criminals.
shovland 4 years ago
You don't know much about policy. Regulations are increasing not decreasing. The size of government is growing bigger and bigger every day.
toolshed333 4 years ago
For example?
shovland 4 years ago
Look at the Congressional Budget Committees yearly economic outlook. It will show you that the government is growing every year as a percent of GDP. Obviously the government is becoming more and more involved with our lives, to our detriment.
toolshed333 4 years ago
Yes, the Bushies have made government ever larger, to the dismay of true conservatives and the detriment of all of us.
shovland 4 years ago
Agreed. Hopefully we can work out a solution. Nice debating you shovland, sorry if I come off harsh sometimes, but I believe strongly in my thoughts, which I'm sure you do as well. I don't think either of us will ever come to a consensus, but it is nice talking to you, making me reason out my own beliefs. What I do believe we agree on, is we both want the best for everyone. Our disagreement lies in the path to that goal.
toolshed333 4 years ago
What??? Doctors do not drive you to the drive throughs. Your statement about the doctors in this country is just completely mind blowing and ludicrous. A 5 year old in this country knows fast food is bad yet we still go and eat it everyday. Has nothign what so ever to do with the doctors. Go find a doctor that will tell you it's ok to eat fast food then come back and make your argument. Rediculous!
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
Does your doctor know how to cure a migraine with nutrients?
shovland 4 years ago
Maybe, Maybe not. What does it matter? With my own health care money I can take it and pay whatever doctor of my choosing for whatever care I want and not have to worry about paying for you to go. Get your own care. We share health care. I guess the next step would be to pay all of our money into the government and everyone gets the same pay no matter their career?
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
I pay about $1200 per year for Medicare but don't get anything for the money. I want what I paid for :-)
shovland 4 years ago
The more reason there needs to be free market in health care. Competition breeds quality.
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
We had a free market before HMO's and PPO's, and health care was not the crisis it is now.
Do you favor using government power to break up the oligopolies?
shovland 4 years ago
The founding fathers made sure that everyone had a right to the pursuit of happiness and personal success. Is it up to the government to tell us the what the limit of success is. If my business is kicking butt and I'm doing it by ethical means it is none of the governments' business IMO. "Unethical" means of competitive advantage should be tended to. Our economy is going down the drain because of government regulation and interference.
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
It has been wonderful debating with you. It's good to have a debate with someone well informed of their own opinion. I thank you for your time.
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
You are welcome.
shovland 4 years ago
I have a script idea for "real health care" but haven't done it yet. Real health care has almost nothing to do with the so-called health care system.
shovland 4 years ago
I challenge any one watching this video to give me one instance where the American people complained to the government about changing a "Free Market" industry. I also challenge you to provide one Government run industry that has not had issues. Do we really want "FEMA" healthcare????
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
FEMA under Clinton was very effective. The Bushies destroyed it.
The War on Iraq is a good example of an incompetent government program.
shovland 4 years ago
WATCH SICKO BY MICHAEL MOORE! Anyone who thinks Universal Healthcare is bad or that Canadanians come here for healthcare needs to watch this. He goes to UK, Canada and France and shows how much better things are for them than they are for us! Healthcare Saving Programs are a joke! How do you expect poor people who can barely feed their children to save up for expensive medical procedures? In a Universal Healthcare plan, doctors get paid MORE for the quality of work they do!
madhatterofmarch 4 years ago
There are Third World countries that have lower infant mortality rates than the US.
shovland 4 years ago
That is all completely "number games". If you want to run your numbers why don't you give us real facts on population comparison, causes of death percentage? How many of these infants in the united states die from lack of health car quality. Hell I can say India has more people die than any other country in the world each day. That doesn't say anything about their healthcare, crime, disease rate, nothing. Why? Because they have the largest population. Quit playing "number games".
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
Life expectancy and infant mortality numbers are the big ones.
Stop trying to support your argument with claims and beliefs.
shovland 4 years ago
Yeah they are big numbers but it does not necessarily reflect health care. Drug, Aids, all types of things can effect that. This country eats more fast food than any other in the world. That has nothing to fo with health care! As I said, if you want to run your number games give us some facts. Support my argument with claims and beliefs? This is fact my friend! If you can't handle it maybe you should read up a little more on what you're arguing.
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
Our diet has everything to do with healthcare, as it is a major cause of health problems in this country, and doctors know almost nothing about nutrition.
shovland 4 years ago
Michael Moore is a disgrace. If you are gullable enough to believe anything that comes out of his mouth or produced by him then that your problem. Go to these countries and find out for yourself. There have been videos brought back from cube of hospital IN THE CAPITAL where the rooms had COTS! Canada is lacking staff and supplies tremendously through out the provinces. Taking Michael Moore's word for anything is like taking the word of Michael Vick on dog cruelty.
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
100,000 Americans die every year from preventable medical errors.
shovland 4 years ago
The third world countries with lower infant mortality rates have those because the statistics are given by the government which lies. Do you really expect dictators to tell you the truth? Cuba doesn't even count babies that die within the first 2 days as ever living.
toolshed333 4 years ago
Spain is not third world. Spaniards on average live longer than Americans.
shovland 4 years ago
Just because a country has a higher life expectancy is not a direct reflection of that countries of health care system. Although there is one thing that we agree on. Our current system is a mess and needs to be changed. IMO, and alot of others, the Hillary Care way of changing it will make matters worse for this country. Especially with national debt, hospital supplies, staff, etc. Ron Paul's way is constitutional. Anything ran completely privately by free market has worked.
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
When we have a free market I'll consider it.
We'll need to lot of regulation to get one.
shovland 4 years ago
Spain is not obese, doesn't get into hundreds of thousands of car accidents, doesn't murder people as much. Saying they live longer doesn't say they have better health care.
And did you just say to get a free market you need a lot of regulation? That is an oxymoron.
toolshed333 4 years ago
Everyone should also be accountable for providing their own health care account! We the people support We the people. We the people do not support you the individual. It just doesn't work.
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
Insurance is still a sound idea- sharing of risk.
If you think you don't need other people I challenge you to go off into the wilderness by yourself and see how long you survive. You can take everything you can carry on your back. But no cell phone or radio or GPS.
shovland 4 years ago
So you think the people of the united states are responsible for shelling out their hard earned money if I up and decided to risk my life in the wilderness?
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
You missed the point.
And you don't get the point about people combining their resources for the common good.
You may be a social parasite.
shovland 4 years ago
I do get the point completely. You're saying tax dollars should be put together to take of the people no matter how they take care of their bodies. That is a socialistic view. Maybe you are a socialist! Maybe you should be arrested under Bush's precious Patriot Act.
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
As far as I know, promoting national health is not a violation of the Patriot Act :-)
shovland 4 years ago
You would be surprised what is a violation of the Patriot act. =) And you do come off with socialists ideologies. I wouldn't be surprised if bush had Ron Paul and all of us supporters locked up. We're talking revolution. We are terroists in the eyes of the media. Rediculous. And with the patriot act, they have every means of doing so. Which is scary.
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
I do worry about what they might try in their last desperate hours, but I think they are short of friends. The generals got rid of Rumsfeld.
shovland 4 years ago
It is unconstitutional to force the citizens of the united states to pay money for others' needs. Any thing government controled that is to "help" the people never works. I challenge you to name anything that the government controls that has actually been a success! Government controled departments and policies are the reason borrow 4 billion dollars A DAY from China. They could bring us to our knees at any time.
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
Your tap water probably comes from a government agency. Is is safe to drink?
shovland 4 years ago
That is a state government department. Not Federal. And besides why not go and look up all the people in West Virginia who have to have 18 wheelers bring in their water! Ask them about government run departments! I'm still waiting for your argument. You mentioned the Iraq war. I asked for that works not one thats failed.
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
So local govt is OK but Federal sucks?
Why don't you stop paying your Federal taxes and see how that goes.
Many people think Social Security and Medicare work pretty well.
I think the SE has a serious drought, so 18 wheelers bringing water to WV is irrelevant.
shovland 4 years ago
The entire point of the constitution is to protect state law and limit federal government. That's what Ron Paul is all about. The state has the right to legalize or illeglize Homosexual marriage. They have the right to legalize or illegalize drugs. The vote of the people at the state level is what matters. Taxes or no taxes? But only state. No federal is constitutional. Only laws that are for the better good of society should be federal. Like Murder, abortion, which is murder, etc.
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
Are you kidding about SS and Medicare working? Are these people recluse? The government is completely in debt. I'm paying into a system that will have no money when I retire. The government is too incompetent to run those types of systems, let me take care of my own money.
The problem in West VA is not drought, their water is polluted from coal mining and the federal government does nothing.
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
If we make the rich pay their fair share we will have the money.
shovland 4 years ago
Thats just the thing my friend. The rich. Whats the definition? For years democrats have been throwing around this word rich and won't give their definition. As a business owner, I can tell you they're getting their fair share. The thing is, NO ONE should have to pay ANY SHARE. IT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL! If we quit spending money over seas, get rid of these rediculous depts. (Homeland Security??? Our Homeland Security needs to come home!) then we would be out of the mess we're in.
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
These days I would define rich as over $2 mil a year in family income.
Are you in that class?
As I recall, the top 1% is taking home 20% of the personal income.
The normal way of reporting incomes conceals the reality that the very rich have become a lot richer under Bush, at the expense of everyone else.
shovland 4 years ago
A corporation is a legal entity and is taxed as so. When that's said and done all of the shareholders who profit on what's left are taxed as so. The "rich" as you call them are getting hit just as much as those who are on a payroll. Double the tax bracket on your income and you can see the percentage. The difference is, they make more money. The rich get richer because they're already rich. They got that way because they obviously were smart entrepreneurs. Whats wrong with that?
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
No, most wealth is inherited and the rich always attempt to sweeting their piece by getting tax laws changed. They have been very successful under Bush. I think you may be buying into a myth.
shovland 4 years ago
No I am not. The rich literally are paying more taxes than any other class in America. Most of our taxes are not paid for by the middle or lower class. Look it up. U.S. Treasury Department. You seem like you are living in a cloud.
toolshed333 4 years ago
And why do you believe that the rich somehow create the poor? Economics is not a zero sum game. The pie to grab is not a fixed size. If anything the rich help the poor by providing jobs, investments, etc.
toolshed333 4 years ago
The corporate rich get richer because they write off everything, meals, transportation, housing, medical care, and they make large amounts on executive salaries and CEO stock options... by the time they pay taxes the have everything paid for so 50% the pay is a pittance compared to a family earning 20, 30 , 40 k per year who pay 28-35 percent in taxes then pay for transportation, housing, food, and medical care...after taxes not before like the kings of the corporate world.
4SuEco7 4 years ago
That is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard. Take away write offs and corporate America is no more poorer than before. Take away write offs and watch the price you pay for goods and services sky rocket because of expenses. Way to go smart guy.
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
So penalize the rich because they were more successful than you? An individual can write off just as much, just that business owners have more to write off. Go get your own success bud, or go to China and see how Communism works for you. "The rich getting richer" is not the poverty problem. The problem is inflation, which is caused by the federal reserve and they do it because of this massive debt we're in which was produced this countries idiocity of global intervention.
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
One more thing. I'm a consultant and I travel extensively. I could track my travel expenses and write them off at the end of the year. If I did I would go out of business. I can't afford to. I have to charge my clients travel expenses. Be thankful that Corporate America tracks their expenses and write them off at the end of the year instead of tacking them on to the prices you pay with your 13 cent dollar. Think before judgement.
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
Besides, no one should be taxed at the federal level. No entities, corps or individuals. It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL! It was voted as unconstitutional in 1913 but the IRS and federal reserve were created anyway. If we get out of this building of an empire which is also unconstitutional we would need to tax any one at the federal level!
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
The rich are paying for most of the federal budget already. What is a fair share. The richest 1 % pays over 90% of taxes.
toolshed333 4 years ago
It's wonderful that this lady got stitched for free and good quality (I'm assuming). She was lucky. Universal healthcare will only turn hospitals and care officed into Helth Care DEPARTMENTS. No way of maximizing profits leads to companies not giving a crap about quality. I'd much rather have a free market health care system and pay LESS THAN WE ARE NOW to get an operation besides having bubba do it after all the would be doctors skip out on Med School because there's no money in it.
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
The reality is that in the US you pay twice as much per capita for lower quality health care.
Excellent care is a function of process excellence.
The profit motivation is more likely to lead providers to cut corners and deny care.
shovland 4 years ago
That is just not true. Why do you think canadiens come here to get their health care? Beacause they have to stand in long lines for low quality! If it were true that profit motivation incites denying people healthcare. NOT TRUE. Or else there would be no traffic ticket lawyers. They would cut corners and only provide care to those with bigger cases right? Wrong! Where there's money to be made there's companies being established in a capitalistic market.
ieilowiightbuib 4 years ago
Most Canadians and Europeans are quite happy with their systems.
Some do come here because they get faster service on heart bypasses. 1/3 of patients who have bypasses suffer brain damage. Whoopee.
In the last 30 years health care has become an oligopoly, so it makes no sense to talk about a free market in health care.
shovland 4 years ago
Charity at the point of a gun will never work. If I want to donate, thats my own business, but I don't want the government reaching into my pockets!
toolshed333 4 years ago
The government reaches into your pocket every minute that you work, and you will go to jail if you refuse to pay.
Providing health care to all citizens as a birthright is not charity. It is an investment in our society.
shovland 4 years ago
I disagree with you. Universal health care is institutionalized robbery, and not a birth right. It is not my responsibility to take care of you, because I was more able to provide for myself.
toolshed333 4 years ago
Enjoy your old world view while it lasts- for the next few nanoseconds.
shovland 4 years ago
Wow. Old world view. How about new world view. All you want is more of the same. Whats next? Universal housing, and universal food services? Pretty soon people will have no incentives to work at all!
toolshed333 4 years ago
"Organized Robbery" seems like a pretty good description of the private health care system.
shovland 4 years ago
Organized robbery seems like a pretty good description of the United States tax system buddy.
toolshed333 4 years ago
Whats your point? I don't want to pay for those things either. Privatized systems always work better than government run systems.
toolshed333 4 years ago
Privatized systems often maximize profits at the expense of service.
shovland 4 years ago
How? From what I've seen, most companies have an incentive to provide quality, or they go out of business. If they do provide poor service, I always have the option to take my business elsewhere. How am I going to have that option in a government run monopoly health care system? And how is the government going to provide any better service?
toolshed333 4 years ago
Tax dollars? How about all your dollars. I don't want to pay for it!
toolshed333 4 years ago
You are already paying tax dollars for national health care. Just look at your paystub for the Medicare deduction.
shovland 4 years ago
Yes. I've been a saver/debt reducer my whole life. It allowed me to weather a personal finacial crisis without losing my home. I was forced to take on debt during that time. I've greatly reduced the debt to the point where I'm close to being able to invest in securities again. I'm also a graduate student and classes cost $500 a month each. I consider tuition an investment because I will double my income in two years.
goose1077 4 years ago
If you could get this service from a doctor for $40 and save $50 on your taxes would that be better?
goose1077 4 years ago
Yes. I don't quite understand how your pieces fit together.
If you are talking medical savings accounts, do you have the $50,000 it takes to pay for heart bypasses of the $350,000 we typically spend on cancer patients?
shovland 4 years ago
NPR did a show where they interviewed a doctor who does not take insurance. Because of this, he doesn't have to pay people to process the paper work. He spends more time with patients and gives them better care. He only charges $40 and makes more money than his colleagues. His system is cheaper than the insurance system and it is definitely cheaper than socialized medicine. If you get "free" care from the government you also get taxes that are more money than the care.
goose1077 4 years ago
Insurance only works for things that are unlikely to happen--like a tornado tearing down your house. Most old people need expensive care, most young people don't. So how do we cover expensive care for the lowest cost while getting the highest quality? Here is the plan.....
goose1077 4 years ago
Since it is unlikly that a young person will need a heart bypass, such events are insurable in young people for a small anount of money. My girl friend buys her own high deductable plan for a very small amount of money. For older people the plann is different.....
goose1077 4 years ago
If you start a tax sheltered health savings account at the age if 18 and saved $100 a month, you would have $465,983 in your account when you were 55 years old. Since it is your money, if you get cancer you will ask about prices when you go to the hospital. The hospital will be equipped to give you answers about price ahead of time because everyone will be asking about prices. The hospital will be more efficient and it won't cost $350,000 for your cancer care.
goose1077 4 years ago
Insurance is a sound concept.
shovland 4 years ago
I believe I did say there are purposes for insurance. It's only for things that rarely occur. I wouldn't eliminate insurance.
goose1077 4 years ago
Have you been saving money since you were 18 for your health care?
shovland 4 years ago
I already dealth with this issue in the email I sent you because this thing stopped letting me comment.
goose1077 4 years ago
I read the additional text.
I think your answer was general, and I really was asking if you as a young person (younger than me by your picture) is walking the talk?
Are you saving money?
shovland 4 years ago
All I say Is If I get sick, smoke to much while drinking and driving to the "free clinic", then they tell me I'm dieing, for the love of God come across with the Pain Pills. How fucking much could that cost? Idiots
Robertnc75 4 years ago
I would support that. In Europe a number of countries provide basic health care on a national basis and people buy supplementals for things that the national program doesn't provide. I think smokers should be required to buy supplementals even under our present system, or else be limited to little more than pain relief.
shovland 4 years ago
The government is not to decide who gets healthcare and who does not. The care can be provided by the individuals themselves. It is not anyones moral responsibility to give all they own and sacrifice their own life and the lives of their children for someone who did not make preparations for emergency healthcare situations.
HaroldatState 4 years ago
Presently the private companies decide who gets care and who doesn't. They have decided that 50 million Americans don't matter. Could the govt do worse?
shovland 4 years ago
Solution: take the government totally out of healtcare, deregulate healthcare, let FREE MARKET economics take over and drive the price down and the quality up. Works every time.
HaroldatState 4 years ago
We have a free market now. It produced concentration of economic power and gouging of consumers.
shovland 4 years ago
No we have a pseudo-free market. People who provide services to others for a fee are being stripped of their autonomy and, therefore, are not in a free market. Any regulations on a free market are contradictory to the definition of a free market. These regulations are what concentrate the power and hinder entrance into the market. Try to get a license to sell gasoline and tell me the market is free.
HaroldatState 4 years ago
But all of this is really moot anyway. The US Constitution prohibits the government from meddling in the affairs of healthcare, as well as any other services not specifically granted to it by the Constitution. This necessarily and eternally prohibits the federal government from doing anything about healthcare, whatsoever.
HaroldatState 4 years ago
except we have the federal government in all kinds of things that the constitiion doesn't allow. They are in health care already. medicare, medicade, s chip
goose1077 4 years ago
we don't have a free market. We have a third party pay system. See my vide that is another responce to the ron paul video.
goose1077 4 years ago
In Europe, people over 65 who have issues that require open heart surgery are frequently left unattended and die due to the "financial inconsistencies" of keeping them alive.
Why spend the money to keep them alive when you could spend the money to help finance the intensive care of a toddler involved in a car crash? How about 50 years old?
HaroldatState 4 years ago
Pretty much the way I see it.
Heart surgery is often used in discussions, with worries that it won't be available.
Given the short duration of benefits and the likelihood of brain damage, heart surgery should not in my view be done as often as it is.
shovland 4 years ago
Also, about 1/3 of the people who have heart surgery suffer brain damage as a result.
shovland 4 years ago