This broke my heart. He showed such strength and perseverance in completing this program with a pulled groin muscle. I can't imagine the pain. Elvis was one of my favorite skaters growing up, I wanted him to win gold so much. If he'd been in 100% condition, he might have done it. But two Olympic silver medals is nothing to sneeze at. You were amazing, Elvis.
A few thoughts on what happend this night... Firstly, I am reminded of the 92' Olympic and 93' Worlds of Elvis as where Kulik was during the 98' season, even thought technically Elvis was ahead of Kulik in jumping strength vis a vis the rest of the field in stated competitions. Elvis probably should have won based upon the presentation of this program, which was quite remarkable. He skates with the passion and feeling with the music that is not matched by Kulik in this season.
@RustDemon79 But the judges never appreciated his martial-arts based style and always undermarked him artisitically, and thus with this handicap, he needed to be technically superior to Kulik in order to beat him, and without the ability that night to land the quad because of the injury, he lost the one way he could have done this, which would have been to land the quad in combination with a triple.
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@russianskatingfan Elvis out skated everyone that night, with a pulled groin and skated in obvious pain. Sad that it took a pulled groin for Kulik to finally beat him in competition. Amazing that Elvis was able to skate at all
@ShortySOM Elvis came 3rd in the long program, and had ordinals of 4th or 5th. Kulik even being undermarked in technical scores had 1st place from all 9 judges. So on what planet did Elvis outskate everyone that night. As for Kulik "finally beating Elvis" what clueless BS. Kulik had already beaten Elvis at 95 Trophee Lalique, 96 Worlds, 97 Continents Cup, 98 Grand Prix final. In fact anytime Kulik skated decently he beat Elvis, but Elvis got some wins due to Kuliks inconsitency.
Sometimes it´s all about reputation because people use to consider that Kulik was a very artistic skater, most FS fans wouldn´t even try to think that Stojko´s program could have been in fact more artistic than Kulik´s.
@SimonaCB you could look at it the other way. Stojko's reputation as the technical master gives him inflated marks vs rivals many times. How to explain that whenever Stojko lands a quad even if he misses other jumps his tech. marks are .1 to .2 higher by every judge over a near competitor who skates perfectly. Yet here Kulik lands a beautiful quad which Stojko doesnt try, lands his triple axels way better than Stojko this night, and gets the same tech. mark by 6 of the 9 judges. What a joke.
@grafgirl27 As to the technical comparisons, I absolutely said Kulik was undermarked for this program--he should have had all 5.9's on the first mark. I just said that he was NOT deserving of those 5.9's on the second mark. Neither was Stojko here--I would have given his '94 program an artistic 5.9, this one a 5.8. But I still maintain that Stojko had more expression, passion, and drama in his skating than Kulik did here.
I am sure being reigning World Champion also partialy explains Elvis's inflated scores, particularly on the technical side. And giving it to Elvis would have been a scandulous result which would have upset alot of people, while Kulik winning upset nobody. Kulik was clearly superior both technically and artistically to Elvis in this program.
@grafgirl27 Technically, yes. Not artistically. Kulik is NOT in the top eschelon of the great Russian artists. Stojko's technical marks were just about right--he landed 8 clean triples, no falls, etc. 5.7's and 5.8's make perfect sense there. Stojko's artistic marks were too low, and show again that the judges never accepted his unorthodox, martial-arts based style. Kulik was undermarked on the first mark--he certainly deserved nothing less than 5.9's there--the six who didn't were wrong.
@ADEAL416 I am not interested in getting into an overall discussion on Stojko's artistic merits. However Stojko's performance here was slow and hampered by his physical ailment. His 2nd marks were not too low at all. His first marks were much too high, all 5.8s was ridiculous with no quad try, many low landings, and some reduced spins, particularly when Kulik had barely any 5.9s technically.
Elvis did not have a classical skaters' or dancers' body, and his artistry was always in question. Elvis had his own philosophy, and he remained true to it. His jumps were awesome, and he was drawn to grand themes, no matter what "helpful" advice he was given. In Nagano Elvis was sick with flu, but we did not know that he had a serious groin injury. I have to stand in awe of his courage here. He must have been in agony, but he did not give up. He deserves a lot of respect.
He really was robbed..twice. He should have gotten gold in '94 too. Any person that can skate like that with a pulled groin muscle is amazing. At the end when he's waiting he looks like he's going to pass out. He has incredible focus power and speed.
Robbed twice? OK he should have won in 94 I agree but what other year was he robbed. They couldnt have given him the gold this year when Kulik's performance was better. What he did under the circumstances was amazing but judges can only mark the actual performance. 2002 and 92 he wasnt even one of the top guys either year.
But the interesting thing is, look at the marks. Hamilton said "the quad made the difference." Well, not exactly. Even with Kulik's quad, six of the nine judges had Stojko and Kulik tied on the first mark. Kulik got 3 5.9's, but the rest had them tied on the technical mark. They both got 5.7's from Britain, and 5.8's from all the other five who didn't give Kulik the 5.9's. So again, it was really the second mark that made the difference. The judges never accepted Stojko's style
@ADEAL416 That just means Stojko was overmarked and got much higher technical marks than he deserved. It was a joke for him to get the same technical mark from Kulik by 6 of the 9 judges. An embarassment really. Kulik had a perfect quad which Stojko didnt even try, and the quality of every single one of Kulik's jumps were better than Elvis that night. I think Elvis got some pity marks for his injury as those marks were really inflated even if he probably deserved the silver.
But the "scandalous" line is overboard. The reason it would have upset people is because of the sheer emphasis on jumps. Kulik, I acknowledged, absolutely deserved credit for his quad, and thus, a technical edge over Stojko. But, while this was not Stojko's most captivating performance (that was have been his '94 "Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story" routine)--it had emotion. Kulik's was flat and uninspired artistically--he did NOT deserve those 5.9's on the second mark. He was a jumping machine.
It didn't used to be that way. In '76, remember, Dorothy Hamill was the clear winner despite the fact that she had no triple jumps, while the silver and bronze medalists both landed one. Now granted, Hamill was AMAZING artistically and probably had a no-contest edge in that category. Stojko's situation may not be quite comparable, but Kulik was no great artist either.
@ADEAL416 Kulik was not a great artist in 98 but he was still better than Stojko. And on this day he was the better jumper too. Not only the quad but his triple axels and other triples were better than Stojko here. Stojko's were hampered by the injury but that isnt part of the scores. Sorry Stojko did not deserve to even be close to winning and his marks were too close to Kulik's. If Eldredge and Yagudin had skated better Stojko would not have even deserved the silver for this skate.
Only if you don't understand Stojko's style. You're going on speed to refer to artistic merit. It's not about speed, it's about expression. And Stojko, injury and all, had MUCH more of that than Kulik did. Again, I agreed that Kulik not getting more 5.9's was crazy, and for those judges who gave him 5.8's, Stojko should not have. No need to talk hypothetical about if "Eldredge and Yagudin had skated better" (though it's worth noting that Eldredge should have been the only 2nd mark 5.9)
To clarify, I'm not necessarily saying Stojko should have won. There are plenty of scandalous decisions in figure skating history (two most egregious in my opinion were Torvill and Dean losing to the two Russian pairs in '94 and Kerrigan losing to Bayul that same year.) I'm not putting this with those. (I would definitely say Stojko should have won in '94--here I'm simply saying it would not have been scandalous to give it to Stojko here, and that Kulik was WAY overrated on the second mark)
More recently, remember just this year, Lysacek beat Plushenko despite the latter's quad and the former's lack thereof. (Granted it was a different scoring system, but still......) My whole point here is that it wasn't really the quad that made the difference here, it was the judge's continued failure to understand or accept Stojko's style as legitimate. And they did the same thing in '94 even when he was at his most inspired. This was no different.
@ADEAL416 Speed is part of the 2nd mark. Elvis's overall performance was slow and flat. Dont give me this crap about not understanding his style. His performance simply wasnt that good overlooking the bravery element of skating injured, and his marks were too high as they were. No way in hell did he deserve a gold medal here as much as you want to argue he did.
Again, I'm not unequivocally saying he deserved the gold here, as I would say about '94. I'm saying it would not have been unfair to give it to him, that he was undermarked on the second mark, and Kulik was highly overmarked on the second. That "crap" is exactly what happened. Stojko was marked almost the same in '98 for a program where he wasn't at his best as he was in his captivating '94 performance. Speed figures in, but not as much as passion, emotion and feel. Stojko had that by the tons
@ADEAL416 and Eldredge a 5.9 on the 2nd mark you say. What a joke. His performance majorly sucked with downgraded content and major errors which disrupted the flow of the program. He too was overmarked as it was (5.7s for technical and 5.8s for artistic from many of the judges for essentialy a disaester) which is part of why they also had to overmark Elvis who atleast skated better than Todd this night.
@grafgirl27 Eldredge was overmarked for technical, yes. I would have given him a 5.5 here. But technical elements are NOT supposed to affect the second mark. I have seen many programs with a fall be given 5.9's on the second mark. Again it's about the feel, the drama, the mesmerizing quality. Eldredge's program gives me the chills every time I watch it. It tells a story. The first two "error" were simply downgrading the second jump in a combination from a triple to a double, and then...
then he made the mistake of putting a triple Axel at the end of his program. That's not a "disaster." It's an error in judgment that marred the end of the program. It was still CAPTIVATING artistically and the fact that he got no 5.9's on that second mark was crazy. Kristi Yamaguchi had a fall in her long program in '92 and got nearly all 5.9's on the second mark. So did Petrenko that year. Urmanov in '94 had a mistake that caused "flow" issues and also got mostly 5.9's on the second mark
@ADEAL416 There is no point in continuing to debate with you since it is obvious we will not agree on anything. Eldredge is not the artist Yamaguchi is or even Urmanov for that matter. Eldredge can get 5.9s on the 2nd mark but only with a perfect skate. And you are the first person I have heard even suggest Stojko could have been given the 98 gold and it wouldnt have been a highly controversial result or that his 98 program was in anyway "undermarked". To each their own though.
Eldredge rivals both in terms of the sheer mesmerizing quality of the construction of his programs, and yet again, as these two show (and Petrenko even more so for that matter), a fall does NOT preclude a 5.9 on the second mark--only on the first, and I have said Eldredge WAS overmarked on the first mark. Your argument was that it "disrupts the flow"--if that's the case, then the same is true for Yamaguchi, Petrenko, and Urmanov. Obviously those judges knew how to separate the two marks
@ADEAL416 Yamaguchi, Petrenko, and Urmanov are sometimes capable of a 6.0 for presentation when they skate cleanly hence how they can get 5.9s for presentation when they make a big mistake. Eldredge is not. And as an obvious huge Stojko fan you should be glad the judges dont consider Eldredge a 5.9 artistic skater even on a better day as you think they should, as Stojko would have lost alot more competitions to him if they did (Stojko almost always beat Todd, many times close splits).
Eldredge is absolutely capable of artistic 6.0's. He got them before and with no mistakes, that Gettysburg program would have been worthy of it. I can't speak to some of the other programs you mention. I watched them, but I only pay really close attention to the Olympics. Stojko's technical reputation may have played a role in many other competitions that he won despite the judges never understanding his style. But I'm consistent. I don't think quads always make the difference, nor should
And as to Stojko, I didn't say it wouldn't have been "controversial"--it would have been because of the obsessive emphasis on jumps. I said it wouldn't have been unfair. Different issues. And I have heard MANY others deride the judges' continued failure (exhibited basically to the same extent both here and in '94) to understand or accept Stojko's non-traditional, non-balletic style as being legitimately "artistic."
Just one more point about Stojko and it not being about the effects of his injury but rather a general beef with Stojko's style despite how much he spoke to so many audiences with his skating from the heart. I just checked the video of his absolutely captivating '94 "Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story" long program, when he was absolutely at the top of his game. His artistic marks there, added up, totaled only .01 more than what he got for this slightly subpar program by his standards--51.4 to 51.3
sorry, .1, not .01. But either way, pretty small difference. That means the equivalent of ONE judge in '94 giving him the very next score better than what they thought this program was worth
@ADEAL416 I agree he was undermarked artistically for his 94 performance and program, especialy at the 94 Games. However I mantain he if anything was overmarked both technically and artistically for this performance and if anything got some extra bravery marks. In fact the 92 and 94 Olympics is the only time I ever felt he was underscored artistically.
Glad you at least acknowledge his ridiculous undermarking for the "Dragon" program in '94. Again, I said before, this program was not up to the standard of the previous olympics. My point is, apparently the judges made no distinction between here and '94--they just thought both were part of his unacceptable style. Stojko may not have been terribly undermarked artistically here--just .1 or so. I'd have given him a 5.8 artistically rather than 5.7, but Kulik was WAY overmarked artistically
@ADEAL416 I agree with you on this. I´ve never been Stojko´s fan, actually I didn´t like him at all but after all these years I believe that Stojko´s results depended a lot on his image as un "unartistic skater". Not only the judges thought so, but also his countrymen, which are still putting Elvis down for that. For example I like K. Browning much more but I think it´s exagerrated to say that K. was the "ultimate artist" and Stokjo a "jumping machine ", as they went down in history.
@ADEAL416 the obsessive emphasis on jumps you refer to is also the same reason Stojko won so many competition over the years. Irregardless of varying opinions of his artistic merit, or your claims the judges never liked his artistry if he landed a quad or an extra triple of any kind over his nearest rival he always won anyway over the years. At the 97 Champions final Stojko fell on a quad, stepped out of a triple loop and still beat Eldredge easily who skated perfectly all since he did a quad.
@grafgirl27 Eldredge was overmarked for technical, yes. I would have given him a 5.5 here. But technical elements are NOT supposed to affect the second mark. I have seen many programs with a fall be given 5.9's on the second mark. Again it's about the feel, the drama, the mesmerizing quality. Eldredge's program gives me the chills every time I watch it. It tells a story. The first two "error" were simply downgrading the second jump in a combination from a triple to a double, and then...
And they worship the Russians' styles. (And don't get me wrong, many of them are wonderful, I just wasn't particularly impressed with Kulik artistically.) I would have given Kulik the .1 technical edge for the quad like those three judges did, but I would have given Stojko a .1 edge on the second mark which would have been the tie breaker. He wasn't "robbed" like in '94 where he absolutely should have won--this could have gone either way--but it wouldn't have been unfair to give it to Elvis
@SweetestMiss No, Elvis was not robbed twice. In 1994, yes there was some doubt about Urmanov winning and maybe Elvis should have won but not in 1998, Kulik was way bette. Elvis was (is) a great skater but I think he even acknowledges himself that Kulik was better in '98. What let Elvis down in 1998, so very obviously from this video is that he was both injured (groin strain) and sick (flu). He deserves credit for just competing, let alone winning the silver.
He was in so much pain at the end that, I was nearly crying for him. He has so much confidence. Like muffycat26 said, he's not my favorite skater but, bravo for his amazing effort.
He is doing an amazing tour called "Rock the Ice". It just kicked off in Peterborough, Canada Jan.3/10. I saw it and thought it was the best show ever!!
what a warrior!! he looks like he's about to pass out because of pain in kiss&cry... and to have just skated a full FS with quite a few great jumps... HERO!
Elvis simply had confidence - it was what made him special.
This is great, but my favourite performance of his was in 2000 at the world championships. He fell early in the program, so he put in two triple-triple combinations. That ability to completely re-arrange his programs in his head when something went wrong was very unusual. Most skaters would have fallen apart.
A very courageous performance, and one of the most courageous silver medals ever won. Still objectively speaking I dont have a clue how 6 of the 9 judges gave him the same technical mark as Kulik. Kulik did all the same jumps but PLUS the quad, and did all of them as well or better. Stojko's spins are usually better but he had to weaken them due to his injury. I think compared to Kulik his technical marks are too high, but maybe that was a means to place him in 2nd.
i think there are 3 reasons that he got the same technical mark as kulik. 1) his triple axel combo is halfway into his program, which i believe is a bonus considering the difficulty of the combination and fatigue factor ( kulik did his axel combo before halfway). 2) he went after kulik and they usually leave some space in the marks for those who went after. 3) candeloro, probably the best artistically wasn't the best technically and since elvis followed, had to compare both skates to each other
Amazing performance for someone with a groin injury. Yes, you were amazing, Elvis!
patriciaschannel 1 month ago
This broke my heart. He showed such strength and perseverance in completing this program with a pulled groin muscle. I can't imagine the pain. Elvis was one of my favorite skaters growing up, I wanted him to win gold so much. If he'd been in 100% condition, he might have done it. But two Olympic silver medals is nothing to sneeze at. You were amazing, Elvis.
mameshiba83 5 months ago
A few thoughts on what happend this night... Firstly, I am reminded of the 92' Olympic and 93' Worlds of Elvis as where Kulik was during the 98' season, even thought technically Elvis was ahead of Kulik in jumping strength vis a vis the rest of the field in stated competitions. Elvis probably should have won based upon the presentation of this program, which was quite remarkable. He skates with the passion and feeling with the music that is not matched by Kulik in this season.
RustDemon79 6 months ago
@RustDemon79 But the judges never appreciated his martial-arts based style and always undermarked him artisitically, and thus with this handicap, he needed to be technically superior to Kulik in order to beat him, and without the ability that night to land the quad because of the injury, he lost the one way he could have done this, which would have been to land the quad in combination with a triple.
ADEAL416 5 months ago
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craig12341234 9 months ago
Those marks are way too high. Some real pity scores thrown out there. 5.8 for technical merit compared to what Kulik did, LOL! That is a laugher.
russianskatingfan 9 months ago
@russianskatingfan Elvis out skated everyone that night, with a pulled groin and skated in obvious pain. Sad that it took a pulled groin for Kulik to finally beat him in competition. Amazing that Elvis was able to skate at all
ShortySOM 1 month ago
@ShortySOM Elvis came 3rd in the long program, and had ordinals of 4th or 5th. Kulik even being undermarked in technical scores had 1st place from all 9 judges. So on what planet did Elvis outskate everyone that night. As for Kulik "finally beating Elvis" what clueless BS. Kulik had already beaten Elvis at 95 Trophee Lalique, 96 Worlds, 97 Continents Cup, 98 Grand Prix final. In fact anytime Kulik skated decently he beat Elvis, but Elvis got some wins due to Kuliks inconsitency.
russianskatingfan 1 month ago
Sometimes it´s all about reputation because people use to consider that Kulik was a very artistic skater, most FS fans wouldn´t even try to think that Stojko´s program could have been in fact more artistic than Kulik´s.
SimonaCB 1 year ago
@SimonaCB you could look at it the other way. Stojko's reputation as the technical master gives him inflated marks vs rivals many times. How to explain that whenever Stojko lands a quad even if he misses other jumps his tech. marks are .1 to .2 higher by every judge over a near competitor who skates perfectly. Yet here Kulik lands a beautiful quad which Stojko doesnt try, lands his triple axels way better than Stojko this night, and gets the same tech. mark by 6 of the 9 judges. What a joke.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
@grafgirl27 As to the technical comparisons, I absolutely said Kulik was undermarked for this program--he should have had all 5.9's on the first mark. I just said that he was NOT deserving of those 5.9's on the second mark. Neither was Stojko here--I would have given his '94 program an artistic 5.9, this one a 5.8. But I still maintain that Stojko had more expression, passion, and drama in his skating than Kulik did here.
ADEAL416 1 year ago
I am sure being reigning World Champion also partialy explains Elvis's inflated scores, particularly on the technical side. And giving it to Elvis would have been a scandulous result which would have upset alot of people, while Kulik winning upset nobody. Kulik was clearly superior both technically and artistically to Elvis in this program.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
@grafgirl27 Technically, yes. Not artistically. Kulik is NOT in the top eschelon of the great Russian artists. Stojko's technical marks were just about right--he landed 8 clean triples, no falls, etc. 5.7's and 5.8's make perfect sense there. Stojko's artistic marks were too low, and show again that the judges never accepted his unorthodox, martial-arts based style. Kulik was undermarked on the first mark--he certainly deserved nothing less than 5.9's there--the six who didn't were wrong.
ADEAL416 1 year ago
@ADEAL416 I am not interested in getting into an overall discussion on Stojko's artistic merits. However Stojko's performance here was slow and hampered by his physical ailment. His 2nd marks were not too low at all. His first marks were much too high, all 5.8s was ridiculous with no quad try, many low landings, and some reduced spins, particularly when Kulik had barely any 5.9s technically.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
Elvis did not have a classical skaters' or dancers' body, and his artistry was always in question. Elvis had his own philosophy, and he remained true to it. His jumps were awesome, and he was drawn to grand themes, no matter what "helpful" advice he was given. In Nagano Elvis was sick with flu, but we did not know that he had a serious groin injury. I have to stand in awe of his courage here. He must have been in agony, but he did not give up. He deserves a lot of respect.
ja3399 1 year ago 2
Wow Brits!!! Way 2 be stingy with the marks!!!
lilmisstoepix17 1 year ago
Comment removed
lilmisstoepix17 1 year ago
I really hate this guy.
NeevsBroadway 2 years ago
Why?
intldawn 1 year ago
@NeevsBroadway I hate you!
skatergirl137 1 year ago
I don't know how he did it but to skate on a pulled groin has got to be the worst injury for a skater.
SrustinLim 2 years ago 3
God his mother looks like a bitch! Could she at least smile for him...? lol
stads24 2 years ago
He really was robbed..twice. He should have gotten gold in '94 too. Any person that can skate like that with a pulled groin muscle is amazing. At the end when he's waiting he looks like he's going to pass out. He has incredible focus power and speed.
SweetestMiss 2 years ago 3
Robbed twice? OK he should have won in 94 I agree but what other year was he robbed. They couldnt have given him the gold this year when Kulik's performance was better. What he did under the circumstances was amazing but judges can only mark the actual performance. 2002 and 92 he wasnt even one of the top guys either year.
russianskatingfan 1 year ago
But the interesting thing is, look at the marks. Hamilton said "the quad made the difference." Well, not exactly. Even with Kulik's quad, six of the nine judges had Stojko and Kulik tied on the first mark. Kulik got 3 5.9's, but the rest had them tied on the technical mark. They both got 5.7's from Britain, and 5.8's from all the other five who didn't give Kulik the 5.9's. So again, it was really the second mark that made the difference. The judges never accepted Stojko's style
ADEAL416 1 year ago
@ADEAL416 That just means Stojko was overmarked and got much higher technical marks than he deserved. It was a joke for him to get the same technical mark from Kulik by 6 of the 9 judges. An embarassment really. Kulik had a perfect quad which Stojko didnt even try, and the quality of every single one of Kulik's jumps were better than Elvis that night. I think Elvis got some pity marks for his injury as those marks were really inflated even if he probably deserved the silver.
russianskatingfan 1 year ago
But the "scandalous" line is overboard. The reason it would have upset people is because of the sheer emphasis on jumps. Kulik, I acknowledged, absolutely deserved credit for his quad, and thus, a technical edge over Stojko. But, while this was not Stojko's most captivating performance (that was have been his '94 "Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story" routine)--it had emotion. Kulik's was flat and uninspired artistically--he did NOT deserve those 5.9's on the second mark. He was a jumping machine.
ADEAL416 1 year ago
It didn't used to be that way. In '76, remember, Dorothy Hamill was the clear winner despite the fact that she had no triple jumps, while the silver and bronze medalists both landed one. Now granted, Hamill was AMAZING artistically and probably had a no-contest edge in that category. Stojko's situation may not be quite comparable, but Kulik was no great artist either.
ADEAL416 1 year ago
@ADEAL416 Kulik was not a great artist in 98 but he was still better than Stojko. And on this day he was the better jumper too. Not only the quad but his triple axels and other triples were better than Stojko here. Stojko's were hampered by the injury but that isnt part of the scores. Sorry Stojko did not deserve to even be close to winning and his marks were too close to Kulik's. If Eldredge and Yagudin had skated better Stojko would not have even deserved the silver for this skate.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
Only if you don't understand Stojko's style. You're going on speed to refer to artistic merit. It's not about speed, it's about expression. And Stojko, injury and all, had MUCH more of that than Kulik did. Again, I agreed that Kulik not getting more 5.9's was crazy, and for those judges who gave him 5.8's, Stojko should not have. No need to talk hypothetical about if "Eldredge and Yagudin had skated better" (though it's worth noting that Eldredge should have been the only 2nd mark 5.9)
ADEAL416 1 year ago
To clarify, I'm not necessarily saying Stojko should have won. There are plenty of scandalous decisions in figure skating history (two most egregious in my opinion were Torvill and Dean losing to the two Russian pairs in '94 and Kerrigan losing to Bayul that same year.) I'm not putting this with those. (I would definitely say Stojko should have won in '94--here I'm simply saying it would not have been scandalous to give it to Stojko here, and that Kulik was WAY overrated on the second mark)
ADEAL416 1 year ago
More recently, remember just this year, Lysacek beat Plushenko despite the latter's quad and the former's lack thereof. (Granted it was a different scoring system, but still......) My whole point here is that it wasn't really the quad that made the difference here, it was the judge's continued failure to understand or accept Stojko's style as legitimate. And they did the same thing in '94 even when he was at his most inspired. This was no different.
ADEAL416 1 year ago
@ADEAL416 Speed is part of the 2nd mark. Elvis's overall performance was slow and flat. Dont give me this crap about not understanding his style. His performance simply wasnt that good overlooking the bravery element of skating injured, and his marks were too high as they were. No way in hell did he deserve a gold medal here as much as you want to argue he did.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
Again, I'm not unequivocally saying he deserved the gold here, as I would say about '94. I'm saying it would not have been unfair to give it to him, that he was undermarked on the second mark, and Kulik was highly overmarked on the second. That "crap" is exactly what happened. Stojko was marked almost the same in '98 for a program where he wasn't at his best as he was in his captivating '94 performance. Speed figures in, but not as much as passion, emotion and feel. Stojko had that by the tons
ADEAL416 1 year ago
@ADEAL416 and Eldredge a 5.9 on the 2nd mark you say. What a joke. His performance majorly sucked with downgraded content and major errors which disrupted the flow of the program. He too was overmarked as it was (5.7s for technical and 5.8s for artistic from many of the judges for essentialy a disaester) which is part of why they also had to overmark Elvis who atleast skated better than Todd this night.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
@grafgirl27 Eldredge was overmarked for technical, yes. I would have given him a 5.5 here. But technical elements are NOT supposed to affect the second mark. I have seen many programs with a fall be given 5.9's on the second mark. Again it's about the feel, the drama, the mesmerizing quality. Eldredge's program gives me the chills every time I watch it. It tells a story. The first two "error" were simply downgrading the second jump in a combination from a triple to a double, and then...
ADEAL416 1 year ago
then he made the mistake of putting a triple Axel at the end of his program. That's not a "disaster." It's an error in judgment that marred the end of the program. It was still CAPTIVATING artistically and the fact that he got no 5.9's on that second mark was crazy. Kristi Yamaguchi had a fall in her long program in '92 and got nearly all 5.9's on the second mark. So did Petrenko that year. Urmanov in '94 had a mistake that caused "flow" issues and also got mostly 5.9's on the second mark
ADEAL416 1 year ago
@ADEAL416 There is no point in continuing to debate with you since it is obvious we will not agree on anything. Eldredge is not the artist Yamaguchi is or even Urmanov for that matter. Eldredge can get 5.9s on the 2nd mark but only with a perfect skate. And you are the first person I have heard even suggest Stojko could have been given the 98 gold and it wouldnt have been a highly controversial result or that his 98 program was in anyway "undermarked". To each their own though.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
Eldredge rivals both in terms of the sheer mesmerizing quality of the construction of his programs, and yet again, as these two show (and Petrenko even more so for that matter), a fall does NOT preclude a 5.9 on the second mark--only on the first, and I have said Eldredge WAS overmarked on the first mark. Your argument was that it "disrupts the flow"--if that's the case, then the same is true for Yamaguchi, Petrenko, and Urmanov. Obviously those judges knew how to separate the two marks
ADEAL416 1 year ago
@ADEAL416 Yamaguchi, Petrenko, and Urmanov are sometimes capable of a 6.0 for presentation when they skate cleanly hence how they can get 5.9s for presentation when they make a big mistake. Eldredge is not. And as an obvious huge Stojko fan you should be glad the judges dont consider Eldredge a 5.9 artistic skater even on a better day as you think they should, as Stojko would have lost alot more competitions to him if they did (Stojko almost always beat Todd, many times close splits).
grafgirl27 1 year ago
Eldredge is absolutely capable of artistic 6.0's. He got them before and with no mistakes, that Gettysburg program would have been worthy of it. I can't speak to some of the other programs you mention. I watched them, but I only pay really close attention to the Olympics. Stojko's technical reputation may have played a role in many other competitions that he won despite the judges never understanding his style. But I'm consistent. I don't think quads always make the difference, nor should
ADEAL416 1 year ago
And as to Stojko, I didn't say it wouldn't have been "controversial"--it would have been because of the obsessive emphasis on jumps. I said it wouldn't have been unfair. Different issues. And I have heard MANY others deride the judges' continued failure (exhibited basically to the same extent both here and in '94) to understand or accept Stojko's non-traditional, non-balletic style as being legitimately "artistic."
ADEAL416 1 year ago
Just one more point about Stojko and it not being about the effects of his injury but rather a general beef with Stojko's style despite how much he spoke to so many audiences with his skating from the heart. I just checked the video of his absolutely captivating '94 "Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story" long program, when he was absolutely at the top of his game. His artistic marks there, added up, totaled only .01 more than what he got for this slightly subpar program by his standards--51.4 to 51.3
ADEAL416 1 year ago
sorry, .1, not .01. But either way, pretty small difference. That means the equivalent of ONE judge in '94 giving him the very next score better than what they thought this program was worth
ADEAL416 1 year ago
@ADEAL416 I agree he was undermarked artistically for his 94 performance and program, especialy at the 94 Games. However I mantain he if anything was overmarked both technically and artistically for this performance and if anything got some extra bravery marks. In fact the 92 and 94 Olympics is the only time I ever felt he was underscored artistically.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
Glad you at least acknowledge his ridiculous undermarking for the "Dragon" program in '94. Again, I said before, this program was not up to the standard of the previous olympics. My point is, apparently the judges made no distinction between here and '94--they just thought both were part of his unacceptable style. Stojko may not have been terribly undermarked artistically here--just .1 or so. I'd have given him a 5.8 artistically rather than 5.7, but Kulik was WAY overmarked artistically
ADEAL416 1 year ago
@ADEAL416 I agree with you on this. I´ve never been Stojko´s fan, actually I didn´t like him at all but after all these years I believe that Stojko´s results depended a lot on his image as un "unartistic skater". Not only the judges thought so, but also his countrymen, which are still putting Elvis down for that. For example I like K. Browning much more but I think it´s exagerrated to say that K. was the "ultimate artist" and Stokjo a "jumping machine ", as they went down in history.
SimonaCB 1 year ago
@ADEAL416 the obsessive emphasis on jumps you refer to is also the same reason Stojko won so many competition over the years. Irregardless of varying opinions of his artistic merit, or your claims the judges never liked his artistry if he landed a quad or an extra triple of any kind over his nearest rival he always won anyway over the years. At the 97 Champions final Stojko fell on a quad, stepped out of a triple loop and still beat Eldredge easily who skated perfectly all since he did a quad.
grafgirl27 1 year ago
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@grafgirl27 Eldredge was overmarked for technical, yes. I would have given him a 5.5 here. But technical elements are NOT supposed to affect the second mark. I have seen many programs with a fall be given 5.9's on the second mark. Again it's about the feel, the drama, the mesmerizing quality. Eldredge's program gives me the chills every time I watch it. It tells a story. The first two "error" were simply downgrading the second jump in a combination from a triple to a double, and then...
ADEAL416 1 year ago
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grafgirl27 1 year ago
And they worship the Russians' styles. (And don't get me wrong, many of them are wonderful, I just wasn't particularly impressed with Kulik artistically.) I would have given Kulik the .1 technical edge for the quad like those three judges did, but I would have given Stojko a .1 edge on the second mark which would have been the tie breaker. He wasn't "robbed" like in '94 where he absolutely should have won--this could have gone either way--but it wouldn't have been unfair to give it to Elvis
ADEAL416 1 year ago
@SweetestMiss No, Elvis was not robbed twice. In 1994, yes there was some doubt about Urmanov winning and maybe Elvis should have won but not in 1998, Kulik was way bette. Elvis was (is) a great skater but I think he even acknowledges himself that Kulik was better in '98. What let Elvis down in 1998, so very obviously from this video is that he was both injured (groin strain) and sick (flu). He deserves credit for just competing, let alone winning the silver.
npe1 1 year ago
Very, very inspiring. What an incredible man.
chamekke 2 years ago 2
A true champion. He was robbed of a gold.
Triaalic 2 years ago 2
why did they say his anguish was obvious? what happened to him
Wini222 2 years ago
@Wini222
He skated on a pulled groin
ShortySOM 2 years ago
i miss him so much!! i was really young when he performed this and i remember crying because i thought he wasnt going to get any flowers.
Dancelife0911 2 years ago 3
He was in so much pain at the end that, I was nearly crying for him. He has so much confidence. Like muffycat26 said, he's not my favorite skater but, bravo for his amazing effort.
AviyaFowler 2 years ago
He is doing an amazing tour called "Rock the Ice". It just kicked off in Peterborough, Canada Jan.3/10. I saw it and thought it was the best show ever!!
ContessaKiya 2 years ago
what a warrior!! he looks like he's about to pass out because of pain in kiss&cry... and to have just skated a full FS with quite a few great jumps... HERO!
vaverachka 2 years ago 2
Elvis simply had confidence - it was what made him special.
This is great, but my favourite performance of his was in 2000 at the world championships. He fell early in the program, so he put in two triple-triple combinations. That ability to completely re-arrange his programs in his head when something went wrong was very unusual. Most skaters would have fallen apart.
jamarsano 2 years ago 3
I don't really like how his free leg is so close to the ice when he lands.
MTVMANN 2 years ago
he has short legs... what can he do?
vaverachka 2 years ago
Oh my god!!! He did two 3 axels on the end of his program... He's uncredible jumper!!! By the way I heard he was injured in Nagano!
ps. 0laila He came back to skating. He did some shows!
SuperSportMEN 2 years ago
I MISS THOSE DAYS, AND MISS HIM!!! Where IS HE nowadays?
0laila 2 years ago 2
Amazing courage. Not my favorite skater but bravo Elvis for this effort.
muffycat26 3 years ago 10
he would perform better to jazz music. his moves suit it.
koolaidnhemlock 3 years ago
He has improved in artistry in this. Better than 2004!
JPPT1974 3 years ago 3
What's the musique? :)
MichelleKwanForever 3 years ago 2
the music is from the movie 'the ghost and the darkness'
thegame0475 3 years ago 2
Very gutsy performance.
That is dedication.
sirkevinho 3 years ago 9
A very courageous performance, and one of the most courageous silver medals ever won. Still objectively speaking I dont have a clue how 6 of the 9 judges gave him the same technical mark as Kulik. Kulik did all the same jumps but PLUS the quad, and did all of them as well or better. Stojko's spins are usually better but he had to weaken them due to his injury. I think compared to Kulik his technical marks are too high, but maybe that was a means to place him in 2nd.
ants2876 3 years ago 3
i think there are 3 reasons that he got the same technical mark as kulik. 1) his triple axel combo is halfway into his program, which i believe is a bonus considering the difficulty of the combination and fatigue factor ( kulik did his axel combo before halfway). 2) he went after kulik and they usually leave some space in the marks for those who went after. 3) candeloro, probably the best artistically wasn't the best technically and since elvis followed, had to compare both skates to each other
thegame0475 3 years ago 2
Ok very good points. Basically alot of it was the draw, like Michelle vs Tara marks too.
ants2876 3 years ago 3
You're right! That's the point many people don't understand... dificulty jumps in the second half of the programm is bonuns...
verinhajor 2 years ago
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verinhajor 2 years ago