Agreed. In definitions I've looked up, the common thread isn't women as victims. The common element is force, and that implies a victim, a perpetrator, and a loss from the standpoint of the victim, and a gain if looked upon from the standpoint of the perpetrator. For the loss and gain aspect, you can fill in just about anything, but liberty seems universal.
@PseudoPoiesis Got any other possibilities there, Ol' Hoss? Or are you just blowing smoke up the asses of people online because you think you know about a field you're "going to get into", meaning you're not in it yet?
@PseudoPoiesis Tell me, what part of biology do you think explains why a man would want to rape? Physiology might show elevated sex hormones that take control of the man's mind! Oh, except that doesn't happen.How about ethology, the study of behavior? Nope, no help there, rapists don't show an identifiable pattern of behavior, except committing rapes, of course. How about neuroscience, surely that will do the trick! Nope, big goose egg there too, as the vast majority of rapists are neurotypical.
@PseudoPoiesis No, psychology, sociology and criminology are important to understanding the motivations of criminals, including rapists, not biology. Ask any cop. You rape apologists fail criminalistics forever.
rape by definition is penial penetration without consent. that being said women cannot rape anyone, but men can rape other men. changing the definition isnt going to help much and i actually think it may be detrimental to women's rights.
@ihmen 1a. "rape by definition is penial penetration without consent" You should broaden your horizons a bit more. Random House College Dictionary says:
rape: 1. the act of physically forcing a woman to have sexual intercourse. 2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person. 3. the act of seizing and carrying off by force. 4. See statutory rape. 5. to force (a person,esp. a woman) to have sexual intercourse. 6. to seize, take, or carry off by force. 7. to plunder (a place). ...
@ihmen 2a. ...8. to commit rape. So, you can use it as a reference to sex, but what is common to all of them is the use of force, not penis, and not women as victims. If a woman took a man, tied him up, and got a horse to penetrate him, how is that not a woman raping a man. I suppose you might try to say the horse raped him, but you'd be wrong because the woman put him in that position without his concent. The main thrust here is that one is being deprived of their liberty to make a free choice
@ihmen 2a. ...8. to commit rape. So, you can use it as a reference to sex, but what is common to all of them is the use of force, not penis, and not women as victims. If a woman took a man, tied him up, and got a horse to penetrate him, how is that not a woman raping a man. I suppose you might try to say the horse raped him, but you'd be wrong because the woman put him in that position without his concent. The main thrust here is that one is being deprived of their liberty to make a free choice
@RichardRoy2 my health teacher with a PHD said that rape is penial penetration without consent. it doesnt always have to involve force beause you need to know what date rape is. if you have sex with a drunk girl that is also rape, however no force was used. she just cant legally give consent while she is under the influence therefore you penetrated her without consent, aka raped her. theres also drugs that make a girl knocked out, no force was applied there either but its still rape.
@ihmen 1. Appeal to authority with this PHD thing doens't work. 2. You're confusing force in physics with force where a person is made to do something they didn't consent to. The threat of force, is still force. And yes, Date Rape still involves the use, or threat, of force. Just because you've removed one's capacity to resist, doesn't mean resistance doesn't exist. It's like saying "I didn't use force on that restrained person, so I didn't rape them.", even though you caused the restraint.
@RichardRoy2 oh so now you're moving the goalpost, now its not "physical force". okay then please explain how a girl getting drunk then coming unto a guy and encouraging him to have sex with her involves any force whatsoever. because remember, a drunk girl getting a guy to have sex with her is still considered rape on the guys part.
@ihmen Ha! Talk about moving the goal post. Don't pull that B.S. with me. You were talking about Date rape, and you wont find much simpathy for someone who secretly drugs another person. That's what Date rape Drugs name is derived from. Now you're trying to make equivocations? I am definately calling B.S. on that. Man, you are so full of it! The scenario you just described is so far removed from what we were talking about earlier that I can't continue this discourse, because you're busted, AH.
@RichardRoy2 no its not dude, the scenario i just described IS date rape. if you go to a party and a drunk girl gets you to have sex with her, that is date rape on your part. however my point is this did not require any sort of force, so you saying all kinds of rape must involve force is wrong.
i also like how you completely ignored my question. i guess by now you've realized you lost the argument and now you're running away from the discussion. great job dude.
@ihmen DUDE?! Please don't do that. It's obnoxious. Now you're just talking legal mumbo jumbo. Don't give me that crap either. In scenarios where I've had the opportunity to have sex with a drunk girl, the only option for me was, wait till we're sober. As James Stewart said in "The Philadelphia Story", 'you were a bit under the influence, and there are rules about that.' I don't regard this as a game of win and lose. In the long and short of it, you're excusing yourself. Either decide, or fake.
@ihmen No, I'm not wrong. You're not listening. Play your games all you want. Legal is a matter of interpretation. Two people intoxicated making a mistake, then one trying to make a legal case of it after the fact instead of taking responsibility for their mistake isn't a rape situation. But the court case might be construde as such. Now just piss off. You're so full of it that you should be embarassed to ask such foolishness. Stop trying to use legal interpretations of a situation as principal.
@RichardRoy2 are you trying to suggest that date rape isnt rape? wow man how insensitive can you be? date rape victims suffer just as much as any other rape victim. it is a very real issue, dont try to play with semantics here. date rape is rape, plain and simple.
@ihmen What you're doing is trying to pretend that drunken mistakes is the same as druging someone, and taking advantage of them. No, you're not fooling anyone with that.
@RichardRoy2 they are both date rape. whether the girl is drunk or if she is drugged, she cannot give consent to sex. so "druken mistakes" is still date rape even if the sex wasnt forced. dont be so insensitive and think that these victims dont matter, because they do matter. they suffer just as much as any other rape victim.
@ihmen Oh, knock it off. Two drunks are equally incapacitated. If, when they're sober, they don't own up to it, they're victims of their own denial. Keep your accusation about insensitivity to yourself, fool. Don't tell me that the male is more responsible when incapacitated than the female, or vise versa. Cut your crap.
@RichardRoy2 im sorry but the male is responsible in those situations because rape is penial penetration without consent. if both parties are drunk and sex occurs then the male has committed date rape. if you have a problem with that then you need some sensitivity training, women are NOT objects we can just take advantage of when we're all drunk.
@demonjacobs666 no, if and man and woman have sex and both are drunk then its still considered the man raping the woman. because its the woman who has to give consent to the man penetrating her. a woman raping another woman is impossible because women dont have a penis so no penial penetration can occur. the most a woman can do to another is sexual assault.
@ihmen If the man is given a roofie and the woman is fine, it's still the man raping the woman? Remind me to never visit Tel Aviv, then. Strange, sexist laws there.
@demonjacobs666 if a man is drugged and the woman does what? a man cannot get erect when hes been roofied. so the most the woman can do is touch a flacid penis in which case that would be sexual assault on the womans part. by the way, this is the laws here in the US.
@ihmen A flaccid penis is still a penis, and can still enter the vagina, hence penetration. Besides, real US law talks about either gender abusing another person sexually, not just penile penetration.
@demonjacobs666 rape is defined as penial penetration without consent. that being said, a man can rape a woman/man. but a woman cant rape anyone because she doesnt have a penis. if a woman drugged a man and shoved his flaccid penis into her vagina, that would be sexual assault on the womans part. not rape because she gave consent to the penis going into her.
@ihmen In that case, I hope a girl doesn't get you drunk, assaults you sexually, then tells the police that you raped her. You'd be sent to prison, and she'd go free...with your wallet.
@ihmen A very drunk guy can indeed get hard with a little friction. My friend was raped at his own birthday party by a woman who waited all night for his friends to leave him, drunk in his room. He was not able to give consent and a hard prick is not consent. She raped him. He told her no a few times that night. He even laughed with me about how the girl kept cornering him and trying to climb on top of him. He had no idea how predatory she was. Neither did I.
@leavesof3 if your friend got an erection he obviously liked it, and he doesnt have to give consent to his own penis going into a vagina. also its not a rape because your friend was laughing and bragging about it the next day. real rape victims are crying and ashamed the next day. sounds to me like your friend was drunk then got laid by some random chick and liked it. to compare a drunk guy getting a one night stand to a real rape is shameful.
@imabadking that might make sense if it wasnt for the fact that he got an erection. men cannot get an erection if they dont want to. so obviously he was excited and sexually aroused when he was being "raped". that being said he gave his consent to have his penis going into her vagina the moment he became erect. laughing and bragging about it the next day makes it even more obvious that it wasnt rape. it was just some dude getting lucky while he was drunk.
@ihmen ummm you might wanna check your facts, people can become aroused when they dont want to be. Ever gotten a boner in class? you probably didnt want it to happen, but it did anyway.
@imabadking yeah when i was like 14 but that was in a neutral situation. if you're being "raped" by a woman and you dont like it then you're not going to get an erection and you're especially not going to reach orgasm.
@ihmen go to google, type in google male rape myths and facts, click on the site at the top, then scroll down to the myth about erections. Sorry man, but medically it is a FACT than men CAN become sexually aroused while being raped
@imabadking yeah because some men like being raped, its like a fetish for them. but all im saying is it is impossible for a woman to rape a man. there has never been a single documented case of a woman raping a man and there never will. that story that the guy posted im 90% sure was fabricated, but even if it wasnt the guy obviously enjoyed it and it wasnt rape.
what if a man was tied up, and a woman sodomized him with an object? is that not rape? Even if he didnt get an erection? (I dont know if that has ever happened, but its a realistic situation)
"The crime of rape (or "first-degree sexual assault" in some states) generally refers to non-consensual sexual intercourse that is committed by physical force, threat of injury, or other duress. A lack of consent can include the victim's inability to say "no" to intercourse, due to the effects of drugs or alcohol. Rape can occur when the offender and victim have a pre-existing relationship (sometimes called "date rape"), or even when the offender is the victim's spouse."
You know some women when raped achieve orgasm right? Accusing them of not being raped because the must of enjoyed it would seem completely insensitive wouldn't it? Arousal and sexual climax are biological functions that can be acheieved in most people purely mechanically, particularly if they are metally incapacitated. The Law in the UK defines rape the same sexist way you do, dosn't make the law right, and dosn't make you right.
@TheBoyFromNorfolk yeah i know extreme stress can cause some women to orgasm, thats why i wasnt talking about female orgasm i was talking about male orgasm. im a guy, and i know for a fact males will never orgasm unless they like it. making it even more absurd to claim a woman can rape a man.
you're saying rape laws are sexist towards men? are you serious? they're made that way to protect women, if you think its sexist towards men to protect women then you need some sensitivity training.
I'm a guy also, Does that make my unsubstantiatyed personal claims any more true? Piss Off. Males can and do orgasm when they do not wish to be sexually excited. Like Imabadking said, a quick google will give you medical studies showing this. Even if male orgasm did imply secretly wanting it, would you let a male rapist off if it was found that the woman was sexually excited when he raped her, because that shows she wanted it, or secretly enjoyed it?
Yes, Rape laws can be sexist, descriminating against people unfairly based on gender is sexist. One preventing equal justice for a man is just as sexist as one which would preventing equal justice for a woman.
As for something 'made that way to protect women', I find that a paternalistic sexist attitude. Either women are equal beings or they are not, treating them differently beyond the boudries of biological differences is sexist, wether thats treating them better or worse.
@TheBoyFromNorfolk so because women cant rape you, you call that discrimination? both sexes are equal, but they are different. rape is defined as penis going into vagina without the womans consent, the one being penetrated must give consent to it, not the one doing the penetration. if you think thats sexist then you might as well think tampons are sexist too because they're designed for women.
@ihmen and tell me, does this belief of yours apply to the young boys who are victim of sexual abuse? Because they also get aroused, erections and ejaculate.
@DeeDemonwitch what belief? that women cant rape a man? i think something like a 14 year old boy having sex with a 30 year old woman would be considered sexual molestation on the womans part. because the woman never penetrated the boy, so it cant be rape.
@PseudoPoiesis You're right we as people need to get our head of the sand. Things have gotten better, everyone's life expectancy has increased even in the poorest of countries. However that still doesn't mean we can just sit by. We should always be striving for something better. :)
For those of you that think rape is not about sex, give me only one example of an action that qualifies as rape yet does not involve sex. I give you any guarantee you are going to make one out of two mistakes: You are either going to define sex to narrow. Touching someone's genitals is a sexual action. Sex is not just penetration and is not just meant as penetration by law enforcement. The second mistake you may make is to confuse abuse with rape. The term for abuse is "abuse".
Tell men who drop the soap in prison that rape can't happen to men. If you want an environment that's about; control, violence and domination then you don't have to look any further. Sexual forms of rape are just a form of said factors.
@bary1234 Moreover rape can also be the raping of the psyche with out any physical damage but none the less a person has been violated and yes that is violent
@CiphersSon: Ok that is just nonsense. Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse against another person without that person's consent. You cant fuck a mind.
@bary1234 Really? are you saying that assault of the psyche is not a valid component to the crime? Because as a relation to a victim of rape it has effected my psyche. period. Rape effects more than just the victim. it effects every ones life around the crime. I DID NOT EVER MINIMIZE THE VICTIM! all i was trying to do was point out a facet of this awful subject matter.
@bary1234 Maybe you are confusing the legal definition of rape with the literal definition of rape. Anything can technically be raped. Have you never heard the expression 'raping the land'? Rape come from the Latin 'rapere' which means seize by force.
So if I rob a bank I have raped the employees because I abused their psyche ? If someone has reserved a parking lot and I am parking my car there first I have raped him because I violated him in taking away his parking lot ? What the fuck is wrong with you people ???
@hurzel2010 We have something called "sanity". We also partake in this occult ritual called "paying attention to detail". You might want to look into it, and realize you're talking about something that CiphersSon said, not Bary1234.
@bary1234 Thats rich coming from you barry-on for "violence" you SAID you want to punish people for taking kids to church and that compared taking them to church with raping their bodies. And you also said "....@dsmrider : Human race needs a reset-button. There should come a plaque that wipes out 8 billion of us, then we could start thinking about this zeitgeist-ide..."
which shows me EXACTLY what you feel about oppression, violence and suffering.
Riddle me this, all you people who claim rape is not about control, but only about sex: Why do chemically and physically castrated rapists still rape (using objects)? There are plenty of studies available that the majority of rape is committed not by some sexually frustrated person (god knows we'd have tons more rapists then), but by people who need the feeling of control and power over another human being.
@FelidaTheGeek "There are plenty of studies available that the majority of rape is committed not by some sexually frustrated person (god knows we'd have tons more rapists then), but by people who need the feeling of control and power over another human being" agreed. i've been saying that all along. all i'm saying is, *sometimes* it's more about sex than control. but most of the time, yes, i agree with you fully.
@MistressArte I strongly suggest that you consider where you got this information from. Even rape fantasies and consensual BDSM are vastly different from rape.
@stealthbadger Where did BDSM get added into this? To assume that all rape is about power and violence that's unreasonable. Sometimes rapist just can't get anyone through conventional means. This doesn't excuse the fact that it's wrong, however there are a lot of reasons that go into how people behave and you can't just say it's 100% all the time this one reason.
@MistressArte I was giving them as examples. As far as what criminal history I remember, the "loser who can't get any" is more likely to become a shut-in, possibly become a killer, and extremely unlikely to become a rapist. The power-drunk movie star or executive who is used to getting his way is far more likely to be a rapist (though in fairness, even then it's far from the majority) quite simply because he can't imagine his desires being unfulfilled (though that too, is a kind of loser).
@stealthbadger Please keep in mind, when I say "possibly," I mean a very, very small possibility. I do not endorse the idea that it's the fault of the women who turn him down, because as the common factor in all of the rejections it's far more likely there's an issue with him.
@stealthbadger However unlikely it might be anyone has the capability to do anything for the most part. I'm leaving out people who are vegetables and other exceptions. I just think it's bad to think they only have set characteristics because under a certain light everyone can be seen with those characteristics. Also it denies the fact that rapist could have another reason. It's still fucked up, but fucked up in a different way.
It's disgusting how many men and the media have sexualized the rape of women. You're right, to many people rape = sex. It's also become a freakin' fetish. Hell, the majority of porn today depicts near or actual rape. That's disgusting and it spawns from the fact that women are treated as "minorities" ie less than human, in even the West, so this acceptance of violence is permitted.
Furthermore, the idea that men can't be raped is so dehumanizing.
@AshillaBeige Just trying to be fair here - but the extreme fringe of feminism that spawns from Dworkin and others also conflates most male sexuality with rape. It's not just men, and the media is comprised of human beings of both genders.
There is a line between erotic power and rape, and it's blurry to those who hunger for their desires to overwhelm the will of another - usually in the real world through physical violence, though sometimes through what is aptly called "sexual harassment."
@stealthbadger Oh, I absolutely agree, and I'm not some misandrist. I despise radical feminists that propose misandry as a tool to combat societal and institutionalized sexism.
I also feel that a lot of sexism is directed towards men who are encouraged to be unemotional, aggressive both sexually and physically and to view women as things rather than people. It comes from both men AND women. Many women complain about sexism yet the reinforce it by complying and encouraging it.
@AshillaBeige Actually in the porn industry women are treated really well, and are usually paid a lot more then guys are. I'm all for aggressive love, however there is a difference between consensual and not. The line is very clear on that. The thing we need to dissociate is aggression and violence. The two are found together however they are separate and have a clear distinction.
@MistressArte "Actually in the porn industry women are treated really well."
You're an idiot. Have you seen what mainstream porn is like? Don't get me wrong, I loves the porn... just not most of it.
It depicts violence towards women as sex, no matter how you try to frame it. It sexualizes abuse. Rough sex is fine. Role play is great. What's there is encouraging sexual abuse AND it's just terrible sex. No wonder so many (straight) girls can't come. It's ALL about the man most of the time.
@AshillaBeige Straight girls can't orgasm because of society depicting masturbation as something evil. It has more to do with that more then it does porn. Is there some things that go to far, yes of course there is. However that shouldn't define a whole industry. Also from what I've seen girls are just as likely to get oral as they are to give oral. I'm by far no expert on the subject however from the documentaries I've seen women are treated well, and paid more then guys.
@MistressArte You're the definition of a dumb bitch: you're not only dumb, but you support sexism.
My comment refers to SEX, not masturbation, and the fact that many women do not orgasm from sex due to sex being depicted as being about the male orgasm.
II clearly didn't define a whole industry, but you're too focussed on your own opinion to properly read comments.
Of course the women are paid more. You'd have to pay a girl a lot so you can film her getting throat fucked to the point of tears.
@AshillaBeige I don't really know what kind of porn you've been watching but I've never seen that. -___- Also calling someone a dumb bitch seriously? You claim to be a "feminist" but then you use terms like bitch which is inherently misogynistic. Look in the mirror much? Not once did I call you anything and you have been nothing but insulting to anyone who doesn't fit in your little box. Piss off you hypocrite.
I was *raped* at 15 ... by a 19 yr old girl(friend of the family). So that you all know, She used intimidation against a 15 yr old kid who was, at that time, painfully shy around the opposite gender. For anyone thinking "wow, lucky kid" ... I assure you, it was *nightmareish*
@msginca I had a similar situation when I was 16, of an older woman who forced herself on me. She thought she could make me 100% straight. It was definitely nightmarish and she thought what she did was funny. What pisses me off is that she would likely not have been charged with anything had I turned her in.
Nonsense, rape for the most part is all about sex. When am having my rape fantasies, its never about violence. but all about me having sex with a forbidden fruit. Also, you rarely hear about the rapes of fat, ugly people. Men hunt big game targets and a big, ugly girl is really no challenge when compared to a cute one. That an hetro men raping guys in prison
The confusion here is between rape fantasies, and the act of rape. Rape fantasy is about exploring sexual taboo and forbidden fruit as you say but the actual act of rape is entirely different. Just as going on a death plummet themed roller coaster is fun, but plummeting to your death is, most likely, not.
The main affront of "Rape" is the religious connotations. In an objective society, violence/assault would be dealt with straight-forward, as is..;. Should it be allowed? No.. not anymore than walking up and beating someone down.. Is it the same as just hitting someone once or twice? No.. but logical, objective standards need to be derived. Rape should be treated the same as any other violence. No more, no less
Rape is Rape. IF they manage to change that anyhow, shame on them. I am a man, and raping a woman is not an option for me (apart from all usual reasons) because it is not sex, it is just violence. Whoever needs to release sexual tension, is welcome to watch some Porn or call a call girl..... Rape is for those who look for a completely different Thrill, and that is of violence and abuse.... Rape is not sex. I am amazed that people can maintain an erection while attacking a panicked woman. :(
Rape is not always about violence. It depends entirely on the context and the person of course.
For instance, date rape is almost exclusively about sex. A man wants to have sex with someone, and so they drug a victim and abuse them or abuse a person who has voluntarily injested enough alcohol/drugs to be incapacitated. I think this rape occurs a lot more than people think.
However the majority of rape is domestic, and the majority of that rape is definitely about control.
Does it MATTER whether it's about sex or not for the perpetrator? Does it matter whether a crazy person thinks he's justified in shooting a group of people? Rape is STILL an act of violence and abuse regardless of intention. It should be dealt with as a serious assault.
@kelarael "Rape is STILL an act of violence and abuse regardless of intention" thank you. my sentiments exactly. it seems a dogma has been established that gets people up in arms when challenged regarding this.
@BillKiernan It's such a powerful word that really needs more differentiation- you hear of cases where a 18 year old sleeps with his 16 year old girlfriend and is convicted of rape, they subsequently get married, have children, but he is not allowed to be alone with his own children because he's classified as a sex offender.
Then there's those who later regret having sex with someone or they were both so drunk they don't remember and accuse someone of rape, even though at the time consented.
@kelarael It matters because understanding motivation is key to devising interventions to prevent rape, and also to predicting re-offending risk. To say that rape is about sex or that it is about power both are somewhat simplistic statements. Research (mostly involving men who rape women) suggests rapists can be divided into those primarily motivated by: 1) opportunity, 2) pervasive anger, 3) sadistic sexual gratification, 4) non-sadistic sexual gratification and 5) vindictiveness.
im sorry but rape isnt about control. rape is about sex. plain and simple. my cousin was just convicted of rape and he didnt do it because of control. he did it because he was obsessed with the girl and he thought he loved her. he wanted to have sex with her and she didnt feel the same way. sense he has little to no compassion or empathy, he forced her to do it instead of just finding a willing partner. my cousin was a virgin when he committed the rape btw. thata why im sure it was bout sex . .
@keggerous It was very much about control and the details you give prove it.
1: obsession - Those who are obsessed fantasise about changing or controlling the behaviours of those they are obsessed with. When the fantasy is realized, it is the control that they are getting off on.
2: lack of empathy: Considering your wants more important than the needs of others requires dehumanization of the subject. turning them into a machine to be controlled.
@wyrdness1 ur far from proving anything . . . the point i was trying to make was simple and u missed it completely. he didnt control his "victim" he didnt exert force onto her to control her. in fact, she was drunk and out cold. he didnt even get caught for that time. he got caught when he broke into her house, took his clothes off, and grinded on top of her. ur wrong about lack of empathy too. i think my wants are more important then a lot of ppl's but i dont dehumanize them
@wyrdness1 his lack of empathy allowed for him to commit his crimes. ur trying to argue that he committed his crimes specifically to control and id argue that when he decided to rape her when she was drunk. he was doing so with the intent of NOT having to control or overpower her. thats the nail in ur coffin right there.
also, u dont know what his obsessions were about. they seemed to be about sex, hence the having sex with her. . . u havent proved anything. just assumed and asserted
'ur trying to argue that he committed his crimes specifically to control'
Don't straw man me man. I didn't say he wasn't looking for sex. I'm saying he used her body, and subverted her will. Both of these are forms of control. They may not be explicitly violent, but they ARE control, and there is an underlying violence behind them.
@wyrdness1 well now that u put it like that, i dont think we're that far off opinion wise. of course he had control over her and went against her will. unlike the video, i dont think rape is the delivery system for control. i think some ppl find they need to control others in order to rape. its so obvious that rape is about sex. n every case of rape there is sex but not every case of rape has violence or distinct "control" like with physical restraint. in my cousins case she was asleep
I don't know that anyone these days sees rape as anything other than violence. This mostly seems like a semantic, or definitional debate to me. Rape (traditionally, and by the FBI) is defined as the unwanted penetration of the vagina by a penis. Many states like Michigan have stopped using the term at all, and instead refer to rape as "criminal sexual conduct". Which covers many forms of sexual violence.
Someday, Nellie... someday it will get through people's thick skulls. One step at a time, one person at a time. I grew up with a dad who loves telling jokes and one of his favorites was "there's no such thing as rape cause a woman can run faster with her skirt up than a man can with his pants down." It's taken me years to get him to understand that rape is nothing to joke about and is not about sex. All hope is not lost!
@debbieomi cool. i was just checking because sometimes i get jumped all over for asserting that, and it always confuses me. that said, i believe that the evidence shows it's usually much more about violence and domnination and humiliation than it is about sex. but the idea that "it has nothing to do with sex" (not your quote) is just too dogmatic and doesn't allow for the many scenarios out there people face. anyway, cheers.
Years ago, when my mum was a nurse, she had to look after rape victims. Believe me *anyone* can get raped; male, female, pretty, ugly, young, old, big, tiny... it doesn't matter, they can ALL be raped.
One poor old Chinese lady in her 70s was gang raped in an *inner-city* park (in a medium density residential area) when she was going for a walk at 7am on a week day. She was dragged by her hair over gravel, and the bastards gave her *several* STIs after raping her anally, orally and vaginally.
@MouseHusic In a way yes, although to say "inconsequential" is not what I mean, Sex is used for a very specific reasons to degrade someone as well as inflict the violence, but it's not about the "sex" it's about the power over another individual. Does that make sense?
I think that rape goes beyond the physical violence. As far as I understand it, rape is, also, a forceful violation of someone's personal will, regardless of whether physical violence occurred or not. Such as forcing someone into a sexual or other act, against that someone's will, under a threat. So if someone threatened another person that they will do something terrible to them, in any way, unless they conduct, say, a sexual act, the perpetrator should be charged with threatening and rape.
i don't believe that rape is always about control, but more often than not it is. sometimes it's just about a strong, horney guy without morals or common human decency, who sees an opportunity and takes it.
@BillKiernan so someone who holds a person down and forces them to do what the they want them to regardless of that person saying no, in what ever way they do is not exerting their control over that person?
@nelliediddle they are exerting control, but that doesn't mean it's "not about sex." there is this dogma that has developed via academia that rape has nothing to do with sex but is only about control. i agree to a large extent, and most studies show it. at the same time from women i've spoken to and experiences i've had (no, not as a rapist) sometimes it's just about scumbags taking an opportunity when they see it arise.
@BillKiernan as apposed to the dogma of people thinking they are "just scumbags taking advantage of an opportunity when they see it instead of criminals?
@nelliediddle it seems you think i'm minimizing rape by stating sometimes it IS about sex, why? it is in my opinion, pretty much the most heinous thing one human being can do to another, besides torture (which it can be a form of). yet somehow i'm being painted as a cheerleader for rapists because i'm allowing for instances that are in fact, about sex. it's not the first time i've gotten this kind of reaction for voicing this opinion either.
@BillKiernan it's the use of words such as "just a _____" and taking the" opportunity" which negate the severity of the crime. Taking what you want regardless of anything else Is about control. If it's not the 1st time then perhaps re-think how you are trying to word things. Would you agree that forcing anyone to do something against their will because you are bigger & stronger is an expression of I am more powerful and can make you do it
@nelliediddle just thought . . . what do u mean when u say expression? because to me when someone does something because they are bigger and stronger, it seems to be out of opportunity and apathy . . . being able to control someone because of ur size allows iu to take advantage of them and gives u the opportunity to do evil, immoral things. if someone put more value on the pleasure of sex then the well being of a women, then it follows logically for that person to rape. same with stealing . . .
@nelliediddle if i grab someone who is not as strong as me by the hair and drag them through a bank with a knife to their throat, punch them in the face, and scream at them while i tell them to open up the safe, does that mean my actions have nothing to do with money but is rather about asserting control and expressing how powerful i am? can a man maintain an erection the entire time he robs a bank? robbing the bank may be about control, but it's also about money.
@nelliediddle in the same way, rape *can* and, as i've said, often is more about control and dominance and humiliation than anything else, but sex is a part of it, always. if a man is not aroused, he can't stay erect, especially when he has to struggle. so, sex factors in there somehow. it seems there's a scale, and my "just a scumbag taking an opportunity" statement is expressing one end of that scale, the horney sociopath. neither is better or worse, anyone who rapes is equally culpable.
I think he is saying that rather then claim it is always about control, a dogmatic and presumptive notion anyways(thanks to the use of "always"), he is proposing that sometimes it IS about sex and the rapist is just taking advantage of the situation not as a means of controlling anyone but just for sex.
Your reply was misrepresenting his argument and a poor attempt at that. His argument was about the use of "always about control", not if it wasn't criminal. Don't be so dishonest.
@dragonmatt5 I haven't even watched the vid yet, but I have a good idea what it's going to be like just from her comments above.. She's apparently a very simple minded person. I'd be surprised if she wasn't religious
There is irony in the uninformed calling someone else simple minded...
I don't know how she will respond, sort of the point of talking to someone in the first place, but if I had to wager, I'd think this is just a sensitive subject and people can react to it differently then less sensitive ones. I'll just keep calm, post the simple truth of what I see and go from there. Can't dismiss someone as simple minded though just because they don't agree.
@BillKiernan If a man wants to have sex with a woman, then it may start off about sex. If she consents, it's sex. If she does not, it's rape, and even if he originally intended to get sex, he's made it about control by taking hers away. You seem to believe that for this to count, rapists have to be thinking "Gee, I'm gonna rape someone, but it's not gonna be about sex, it's gonna be about control!". It's not always an intent to take control, but that is the functional effect apart from intent.
@inuyashaxx "It's not always an intent to take control, but that is the functional effect apart from intent" i'm not arguing that point, i agree that is the effect. the point is, to say it has nothing to do with sex is simply not true, especially if sex is the only thing on the persons mind the entire time the act is occuring. you can just as easily say the physical violence is the "delivery system" for the sex in some cases. again, how either scenario is seen as less heinous is beyond me....
@nelliediddle its not purely about control, it is a combination of sexual urge and power. if it was purely about power there wouldnt need to be a sexual act.
power and harming others is what turns them on sexually. i dont rape girls, not because i know its morally wrong, i dont rape girls because i find fear and crying a turn off and also the guilt i would feel would turn me off.
but what difference does it make? either way its just as immoral, either way the end result is still the same
I remember learning about this while watching Law and Order SVU. I was like 9 or 10, but I remembered it, and helped console an ex-girlfriend by pointing out that rape is motivated by violence. She said it made her feel better because she always felt that she was taken advantage of, and she felt guilty that maybe she led the rapist on somehow. For some reason viewing it as physical abuse helped her. I don;t know why
@nelliediddle Now that I think about it, she was really disappointed that her virginity was stolen as well. I remember her saying that she wanted to save it until she fell in love.
Wow, the title really got me. I'm glad it's not what it says. I never equated it the way you have Even though part of the reason (among others) I divorced my wife was (cough) (emotional abuse.) She had such a fit it ended up being a bargaining point and only the code/statute was used on the divorce papers. It is all about control. I know this first hand. Thanks for the vid. and understanding.
Of course men can be raped. By other men is the obvious way, but it's entirely possible for a woman to force herself on a man, particularly if drink or drugs are involved.
@inuyashaxx no its about getting what u want. ppl dont steal because they have a control fetish. they do it because they want what they take. sometimes ppl have issues were they steal for the sheer rush of it. again, not out of control . . .
@keggerous Do you understand the difference between intent and effect? The difference between premeditated murder and unpremeditated? In the former, it was planned, in the latter, it's spontaneous; two different intents (or lack of intent), that have the same functional effect, which is somebody died. Whether a man rapes a woman because he wants sex, or because he wants to terrorize and control her, the END RESULT is about the change of control in both cases. This is not that difficult.
@inuyashaxx the conversation is about INTENT! not effect . . . of course, in order to rape someone, u need to take control of them. this says nothing as to why they raped them in the first place. ive never said that the ppl who got raped felt like they lost control. ive only ever said that the reason ppl rape is because it sexually arouses them, not because of control. ur miss representing my arguments
8/10 good milf would bang
nategarga 1 month ago 3
I came here prepared to be pissed. Glad I'm not.
BadCynic 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
SHUT THE FUCK UP
Jackcena7 2 months ago
U can rape a man in the ass with a foreign object. Haha
GIsupersoldier 11 months ago 2
Oooops, clicked the wrong thumbnail....
detriplea 1 year ago
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imabadking 1 year ago
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imabadking 1 year ago
Agreed. In definitions I've looked up, the common thread isn't women as victims. The common element is force, and that implies a victim, a perpetrator, and a loss from the standpoint of the victim, and a gain if looked upon from the standpoint of the perpetrator. For the loss and gain aspect, you can fill in just about anything, but liberty seems universal.
RichardRoy2 1 year ago
Bloody well said, nellie!
QualiaSoup 1 year ago
@PseudoPoiesis Got any other possibilities there, Ol' Hoss? Or are you just blowing smoke up the asses of people online because you think you know about a field you're "going to get into", meaning you're not in it yet?
inuyashaxx 1 year ago
@PseudoPoiesis Tell me, what part of biology do you think explains why a man would want to rape? Physiology might show elevated sex hormones that take control of the man's mind! Oh, except that doesn't happen.How about ethology, the study of behavior? Nope, no help there, rapists don't show an identifiable pattern of behavior, except committing rapes, of course. How about neuroscience, surely that will do the trick! Nope, big goose egg there too, as the vast majority of rapists are neurotypical.
inuyashaxx 1 year ago
@PseudoPoiesis No, psychology, sociology and criminology are important to understanding the motivations of criminals, including rapists, not biology. Ask any cop. You rape apologists fail criminalistics forever.
inuyashaxx 1 year ago
rape by definition is penial penetration without consent. that being said women cannot rape anyone, but men can rape other men. changing the definition isnt going to help much and i actually think it may be detrimental to women's rights.
ihmen 1 year ago
@ihmen 1a. "rape by definition is penial penetration without consent" You should broaden your horizons a bit more. Random House College Dictionary says:
rape: 1. the act of physically forcing a woman to have sexual intercourse. 2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person. 3. the act of seizing and carrying off by force. 4. See statutory rape. 5. to force (a person,esp. a woman) to have sexual intercourse. 6. to seize, take, or carry off by force. 7. to plunder (a place). ...
RichardRoy2 1 year ago
@ihmen 2a. ...8. to commit rape. So, you can use it as a reference to sex, but what is common to all of them is the use of force, not penis, and not women as victims. If a woman took a man, tied him up, and got a horse to penetrate him, how is that not a woman raping a man. I suppose you might try to say the horse raped him, but you'd be wrong because the woman put him in that position without his concent. The main thrust here is that one is being deprived of their liberty to make a free choice
RichardRoy2 1 year ago
@ihmen 2a. ...8. to commit rape. So, you can use it as a reference to sex, but what is common to all of them is the use of force, not penis, and not women as victims. If a woman took a man, tied him up, and got a horse to penetrate him, how is that not a woman raping a man. I suppose you might try to say the horse raped him, but you'd be wrong because the woman put him in that position without his concent. The main thrust here is that one is being deprived of their liberty to make a free choice
RichardRoy2 1 year ago
@RichardRoy2 my health teacher with a PHD said that rape is penial penetration without consent. it doesnt always have to involve force beause you need to know what date rape is. if you have sex with a drunk girl that is also rape, however no force was used. she just cant legally give consent while she is under the influence therefore you penetrated her without consent, aka raped her. theres also drugs that make a girl knocked out, no force was applied there either but its still rape.
ihmen 1 year ago
@ihmen 1. Appeal to authority with this PHD thing doens't work. 2. You're confusing force in physics with force where a person is made to do something they didn't consent to. The threat of force, is still force. And yes, Date Rape still involves the use, or threat, of force. Just because you've removed one's capacity to resist, doesn't mean resistance doesn't exist. It's like saying "I didn't use force on that restrained person, so I didn't rape them.", even though you caused the restraint.
RichardRoy2 1 year ago
@RichardRoy2 oh so now you're moving the goalpost, now its not "physical force". okay then please explain how a girl getting drunk then coming unto a guy and encouraging him to have sex with her involves any force whatsoever. because remember, a drunk girl getting a guy to have sex with her is still considered rape on the guys part.
ihmen 1 year ago
@ihmen Ha! Talk about moving the goal post. Don't pull that B.S. with me. You were talking about Date rape, and you wont find much simpathy for someone who secretly drugs another person. That's what Date rape Drugs name is derived from. Now you're trying to make equivocations? I am definately calling B.S. on that. Man, you are so full of it! The scenario you just described is so far removed from what we were talking about earlier that I can't continue this discourse, because you're busted, AH.
RichardRoy2 1 year ago
@RichardRoy2 no its not dude, the scenario i just described IS date rape. if you go to a party and a drunk girl gets you to have sex with her, that is date rape on your part. however my point is this did not require any sort of force, so you saying all kinds of rape must involve force is wrong.
i also like how you completely ignored my question. i guess by now you've realized you lost the argument and now you're running away from the discussion. great job dude.
ihmen 1 year ago
@ihmen DUDE?! Please don't do that. It's obnoxious. Now you're just talking legal mumbo jumbo. Don't give me that crap either. In scenarios where I've had the opportunity to have sex with a drunk girl, the only option for me was, wait till we're sober. As James Stewart said in "The Philadelphia Story", 'you were a bit under the influence, and there are rules about that.' I don't regard this as a game of win and lose. In the long and short of it, you're excusing yourself. Either decide, or fake.
RichardRoy2 1 year ago
@RichardRoy2 date rape is rape. a drunk girl getting you to have sex with her is date rape. no force was required. end of story, you were wrong.
ihmen 1 year ago
@ihmen No, I'm not wrong. You're not listening. Play your games all you want. Legal is a matter of interpretation. Two people intoxicated making a mistake, then one trying to make a legal case of it after the fact instead of taking responsibility for their mistake isn't a rape situation. But the court case might be construde as such. Now just piss off. You're so full of it that you should be embarassed to ask such foolishness. Stop trying to use legal interpretations of a situation as principal.
RichardRoy2 1 year ago
@RichardRoy2 are you trying to suggest that date rape isnt rape? wow man how insensitive can you be? date rape victims suffer just as much as any other rape victim. it is a very real issue, dont try to play with semantics here. date rape is rape, plain and simple.
ihmen 1 year ago
@ihmen Thank you. This is confirmation of how full of it you really are.
RichardRoy2 1 year ago
@ihmen What you're doing is trying to pretend that drunken mistakes is the same as druging someone, and taking advantage of them. No, you're not fooling anyone with that.
RichardRoy2 1 year ago
@RichardRoy2 they are both date rape. whether the girl is drunk or if she is drugged, she cannot give consent to sex. so "druken mistakes" is still date rape even if the sex wasnt forced. dont be so insensitive and think that these victims dont matter, because they do matter. they suffer just as much as any other rape victim.
ihmen 1 year ago
@ihmen Oh, knock it off. Two drunks are equally incapacitated. If, when they're sober, they don't own up to it, they're victims of their own denial. Keep your accusation about insensitivity to yourself, fool. Don't tell me that the male is more responsible when incapacitated than the female, or vise versa. Cut your crap.
RichardRoy2 1 year ago
@RichardRoy2 im sorry but the male is responsible in those situations because rape is penial penetration without consent. if both parties are drunk and sex occurs then the male has committed date rape. if you have a problem with that then you need some sensitivity training, women are NOT objects we can just take advantage of when we're all drunk.
ihmen 1 year ago
@ihmen You've come ful circle, now. "penial penetration" That's enough.
RichardRoy2 1 year ago
@ihmen If both are drunk, then neither of them are competent enough to take blame. Here's a question: What if a woman rapes another woman?
demonjacobs666 1 year ago
@demonjacobs666 no, if and man and woman have sex and both are drunk then its still considered the man raping the woman. because its the woman who has to give consent to the man penetrating her. a woman raping another woman is impossible because women dont have a penis so no penial penetration can occur. the most a woman can do to another is sexual assault.
ihmen 1 year ago
@ihmen If the man is given a roofie and the woman is fine, it's still the man raping the woman? Remind me to never visit Tel Aviv, then. Strange, sexist laws there.
demonjacobs666 1 year ago
@demonjacobs666 if a man is drugged and the woman does what? a man cannot get erect when hes been roofied. so the most the woman can do is touch a flacid penis in which case that would be sexual assault on the womans part. by the way, this is the laws here in the US.
ihmen 1 year ago
@ihmen A flaccid penis is still a penis, and can still enter the vagina, hence penetration. Besides, real US law talks about either gender abusing another person sexually, not just penile penetration.
demonjacobs666 1 year ago
@demonjacobs666 rape is defined as penial penetration without consent. that being said, a man can rape a woman/man. but a woman cant rape anyone because she doesnt have a penis. if a woman drugged a man and shoved his flaccid penis into her vagina, that would be sexual assault on the womans part. not rape because she gave consent to the penis going into her.
ihmen 1 year ago
@ihmen In that case, I hope a girl doesn't get you drunk, assaults you sexually, then tells the police that you raped her. You'd be sent to prison, and she'd go free...with your wallet.
demonjacobs666 1 year ago
@ihmen A very drunk guy can indeed get hard with a little friction. My friend was raped at his own birthday party by a woman who waited all night for his friends to leave him, drunk in his room. He was not able to give consent and a hard prick is not consent. She raped him. He told her no a few times that night. He even laughed with me about how the girl kept cornering him and trying to climb on top of him. He had no idea how predatory she was. Neither did I.
leavesof3 1 year ago
@leavesof3 if your friend got an erection he obviously liked it, and he doesnt have to give consent to his own penis going into a vagina. also its not a rape because your friend was laughing and bragging about it the next day. real rape victims are crying and ashamed the next day. sounds to me like your friend was drunk then got laid by some random chick and liked it. to compare a drunk guy getting a one night stand to a real rape is shameful.
ihmen 1 year ago
@ihmen perhaps he was bragging about it because he wanted to convince himself he wasnt raped. I would probably do the same thing
imabadking 1 year ago
@imabadking that might make sense if it wasnt for the fact that he got an erection. men cannot get an erection if they dont want to. so obviously he was excited and sexually aroused when he was being "raped". that being said he gave his consent to have his penis going into her vagina the moment he became erect. laughing and bragging about it the next day makes it even more obvious that it wasnt rape. it was just some dude getting lucky while he was drunk.
ihmen 1 year ago
@ihmen ummm you might wanna check your facts, people can become aroused when they dont want to be. Ever gotten a boner in class? you probably didnt want it to happen, but it did anyway.
imabadking 1 year ago
@imabadking yeah when i was like 14 but that was in a neutral situation. if you're being "raped" by a woman and you dont like it then you're not going to get an erection and you're especially not going to reach orgasm.
ihmen 1 year ago
@ihmen go to google, type in google male rape myths and facts, click on the site at the top, then scroll down to the myth about erections. Sorry man, but medically it is a FACT than men CAN become sexually aroused while being raped
imabadking 1 year ago
@imabadking yeah because some men like being raped, its like a fetish for them. but all im saying is it is impossible for a woman to rape a man. there has never been a single documented case of a woman raping a man and there never will. that story that the guy posted im 90% sure was fabricated, but even if it wasnt the guy obviously enjoyed it and it wasnt rape.
ihmen 1 year ago
what if a man was tied up, and a woman sodomized him with an object? is that not rape? Even if he didnt get an erection? (I dont know if that has ever happened, but its a realistic situation)
imabadking 1 year ago
@imabadking that would be sexual assault. rape is penis going into vagina without the womans consent.
ihmen 1 year ago
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@ihmen what if she puts his FLACCID penis in her vagina?
imabadking 1 year ago
@ihmen
"The crime of rape (or "first-degree sexual assault" in some states) generally refers to non-consensual sexual intercourse that is committed by physical force, threat of injury, or other duress. A lack of consent can include the victim's inability to say "no" to intercourse, due to the effects of drugs or alcohol. Rape can occur when the offender and victim have a pre-existing relationship (sometimes called "date rape"), or even when the offender is the victim's spouse."
DeeDemonwitch 1 year ago
@ihmen
You know some women when raped achieve orgasm right? Accusing them of not being raped because the must of enjoyed it would seem completely insensitive wouldn't it? Arousal and sexual climax are biological functions that can be acheieved in most people purely mechanically, particularly if they are metally incapacitated. The Law in the UK defines rape the same sexist way you do, dosn't make the law right, and dosn't make you right.
TheBoyFromNorfolk 1 year ago
@TheBoyFromNorfolk yeah i know extreme stress can cause some women to orgasm, thats why i wasnt talking about female orgasm i was talking about male orgasm. im a guy, and i know for a fact males will never orgasm unless they like it. making it even more absurd to claim a woman can rape a man.
you're saying rape laws are sexist towards men? are you serious? they're made that way to protect women, if you think its sexist towards men to protect women then you need some sensitivity training.
ihmen 1 year ago
@ihmen
I'm a guy also, Does that make my unsubstantiatyed personal claims any more true? Piss Off. Males can and do orgasm when they do not wish to be sexually excited. Like Imabadking said, a quick google will give you medical studies showing this. Even if male orgasm did imply secretly wanting it, would you let a male rapist off if it was found that the woman was sexually excited when he raped her, because that shows she wanted it, or secretly enjoyed it?
TheBoyFromNorfolk 1 year ago
@ihmen
Yes, Rape laws can be sexist, descriminating against people unfairly based on gender is sexist. One preventing equal justice for a man is just as sexist as one which would preventing equal justice for a woman.
As for something 'made that way to protect women', I find that a paternalistic sexist attitude. Either women are equal beings or they are not, treating them differently beyond the boudries of biological differences is sexist, wether thats treating them better or worse.
TheBoyFromNorfolk 1 year ago
@TheBoyFromNorfolk so because women cant rape you, you call that discrimination? both sexes are equal, but they are different. rape is defined as penis going into vagina without the womans consent, the one being penetrated must give consent to it, not the one doing the penetration. if you think thats sexist then you might as well think tampons are sexist too because they're designed for women.
ihmen 1 year ago
@ihmen and tell me, does this belief of yours apply to the young boys who are victim of sexual abuse? Because they also get aroused, erections and ejaculate.
DeeDemonwitch 1 year ago
@DeeDemonwitch what belief? that women cant rape a man? i think something like a 14 year old boy having sex with a 30 year old woman would be considered sexual molestation on the womans part. because the woman never penetrated the boy, so it cant be rape.
ihmen 1 year ago
@ihmen No, I was referring to this comment of yours: 'and i know for a fact males will never orgasm unless they like it'
DeeDemonwitch 1 year ago
@ihmen Rape by definition means 'seize by force'. It comes from the Latin word 'rapere'.
DeeDemonwitch 1 year ago
@PseudoPoiesis You're right we as people need to get our head of the sand. Things have gotten better, everyone's life expectancy has increased even in the poorest of countries. However that still doesn't mean we can just sit by. We should always be striving for something better. :)
MistressArte 1 year ago
For those of you that think rape is not about sex, give me only one example of an action that qualifies as rape yet does not involve sex. I give you any guarantee you are going to make one out of two mistakes: You are either going to define sex to narrow. Touching someone's genitals is a sexual action. Sex is not just penetration and is not just meant as penetration by law enforcement. The second mistake you may make is to confuse abuse with rape. The term for abuse is "abuse".
hurzel2010 1 year ago
Tell men who drop the soap in prison that rape can't happen to men. If you want an environment that's about; control, violence and domination then you don't have to look any further. Sexual forms of rape are just a form of said factors.
Otakuonfire 1 year ago
Yup, rape is violence. It has nothing to do with sex, it same as hitting somebody in the face. Its just violence, abuse, opression.
bary1234 1 year ago
@bary1234 Moreover rape can also be the raping of the psyche with out any physical damage but none the less a person has been violated and yes that is violent
CiphersSon 1 year ago
@CiphersSon: Ok that is just nonsense. Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse against another person without that person's consent. You cant fuck a mind.
Pick another word for that assault of the psyche.
bary1234 1 year ago
@bary1234 Really? are you saying that assault of the psyche is not a valid component to the crime? Because as a relation to a victim of rape it has effected my psyche. period. Rape effects more than just the victim. it effects every ones life around the crime. I DID NOT EVER MINIMIZE THE VICTIM! all i was trying to do was point out a facet of this awful subject matter.
CiphersSon 1 year ago
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@bary1234 "Nothing to do with sex", eh?
demonjacobs666 1 year ago
@bary1234 Maybe you are confusing the legal definition of rape with the literal definition of rape. Anything can technically be raped. Have you never heard the expression 'raping the land'? Rape come from the Latin 'rapere' which means seize by force.
DeeDemonwitch 1 year ago
@bary1234
So if I rob a bank I have raped the employees because I abused their psyche ? If someone has reserved a parking lot and I am parking my car there first I have raped him because I violated him in taking away his parking lot ? What the fuck is wrong with you people ???
hurzel2010 1 year ago
@hurzel2010 We have something called "sanity". We also partake in this occult ritual called "paying attention to detail". You might want to look into it, and realize you're talking about something that CiphersSon said, not Bary1234.
demonjacobs666 1 year ago
@bary1234 Thats rich coming from you barry-on for "violence" you SAID you want to punish people for taking kids to church and that compared taking them to church with raping their bodies. And you also said "....@dsmrider : Human race needs a reset-button. There should come a plaque that wipes out 8 billion of us, then we could start thinking about this zeitgeist-ide..."
which shows me EXACTLY what you feel about oppression, violence and suffering.
auraofgloom 1 year ago
It's all about power, rather than sex. Domination through humiliation.
Stupoider 1 year ago
Riddle me this, all you people who claim rape is not about control, but only about sex: Why do chemically and physically castrated rapists still rape (using objects)? There are plenty of studies available that the majority of rape is committed not by some sexually frustrated person (god knows we'd have tons more rapists then), but by people who need the feeling of control and power over another human being.
FelidaTheGeek 1 year ago
@FelidaTheGeek "There are plenty of studies available that the majority of rape is committed not by some sexually frustrated person (god knows we'd have tons more rapists then), but by people who need the feeling of control and power over another human being" agreed. i've been saying that all along. all i'm saying is, *sometimes* it's more about sex than control. but most of the time, yes, i agree with you fully.
BillKiernan 1 year ago
Sometimes it's about sex too. The person rapping is such a pathetic loser that only way they can experience pleasure from another person is by force.
MistressArte 1 year ago
@MistressArte I strongly suggest that you consider where you got this information from. Even rape fantasies and consensual BDSM are vastly different from rape.
stealthbadger 1 year ago
@stealthbadger Where did BDSM get added into this? To assume that all rape is about power and violence that's unreasonable. Sometimes rapist just can't get anyone through conventional means. This doesn't excuse the fact that it's wrong, however there are a lot of reasons that go into how people behave and you can't just say it's 100% all the time this one reason.
MistressArte 1 year ago
@MistressArte I was giving them as examples. As far as what criminal history I remember, the "loser who can't get any" is more likely to become a shut-in, possibly become a killer, and extremely unlikely to become a rapist. The power-drunk movie star or executive who is used to getting his way is far more likely to be a rapist (though in fairness, even then it's far from the majority) quite simply because he can't imagine his desires being unfulfilled (though that too, is a kind of loser).
stealthbadger 1 year ago
@stealthbadger Please keep in mind, when I say "possibly," I mean a very, very small possibility. I do not endorse the idea that it's the fault of the women who turn him down, because as the common factor in all of the rejections it's far more likely there's an issue with him.
stealthbadger 1 year ago
@stealthbadger However unlikely it might be anyone has the capability to do anything for the most part. I'm leaving out people who are vegetables and other exceptions. I just think it's bad to think they only have set characteristics because under a certain light everyone can be seen with those characteristics. Also it denies the fact that rapist could have another reason. It's still fucked up, but fucked up in a different way.
MistressArte 1 year ago
Very very good points.
It's disgusting how many men and the media have sexualized the rape of women. You're right, to many people rape = sex. It's also become a freakin' fetish. Hell, the majority of porn today depicts near or actual rape. That's disgusting and it spawns from the fact that women are treated as "minorities" ie less than human, in even the West, so this acceptance of violence is permitted.
Furthermore, the idea that men can't be raped is so dehumanizing.
watch?v=td1PbsV6B80
AshillaBeige 1 year ago
@AshillaBeige Just trying to be fair here - but the extreme fringe of feminism that spawns from Dworkin and others also conflates most male sexuality with rape. It's not just men, and the media is comprised of human beings of both genders.
There is a line between erotic power and rape, and it's blurry to those who hunger for their desires to overwhelm the will of another - usually in the real world through physical violence, though sometimes through what is aptly called "sexual harassment."
stealthbadger 1 year ago
@stealthbadger Oh, I absolutely agree, and I'm not some misandrist. I despise radical feminists that propose misandry as a tool to combat societal and institutionalized sexism.
I also feel that a lot of sexism is directed towards men who are encouraged to be unemotional, aggressive both sexually and physically and to view women as things rather than people. It comes from both men AND women. Many women complain about sexism yet the reinforce it by complying and encouraging it.
AshillaBeige 1 year ago
@AshillaBeige Actually in the porn industry women are treated really well, and are usually paid a lot more then guys are. I'm all for aggressive love, however there is a difference between consensual and not. The line is very clear on that. The thing we need to dissociate is aggression and violence. The two are found together however they are separate and have a clear distinction.
MistressArte 1 year ago
@MistressArte "Actually in the porn industry women are treated really well."
You're an idiot. Have you seen what mainstream porn is like? Don't get me wrong, I loves the porn... just not most of it.
It depicts violence towards women as sex, no matter how you try to frame it. It sexualizes abuse. Rough sex is fine. Role play is great. What's there is encouraging sexual abuse AND it's just terrible sex. No wonder so many (straight) girls can't come. It's ALL about the man most of the time.
AshillaBeige 1 year ago
@AshillaBeige Straight girls can't orgasm because of society depicting masturbation as something evil. It has more to do with that more then it does porn. Is there some things that go to far, yes of course there is. However that shouldn't define a whole industry. Also from what I've seen girls are just as likely to get oral as they are to give oral. I'm by far no expert on the subject however from the documentaries I've seen women are treated well, and paid more then guys.
MistressArte 1 year ago
@MistressArte You're the definition of a dumb bitch: you're not only dumb, but you support sexism.
My comment refers to SEX, not masturbation, and the fact that many women do not orgasm from sex due to sex being depicted as being about the male orgasm.
II clearly didn't define a whole industry, but you're too focussed on your own opinion to properly read comments.
Of course the women are paid more. You'd have to pay a girl a lot so you can film her getting throat fucked to the point of tears.
AshillaBeige 1 year ago
@AshillaBeige I don't really know what kind of porn you've been watching but I've never seen that. -___- Also calling someone a dumb bitch seriously? You claim to be a "feminist" but then you use terms like bitch which is inherently misogynistic. Look in the mirror much? Not once did I call you anything and you have been nothing but insulting to anyone who doesn't fit in your little box. Piss off you hypocrite.
MistressArte 1 year ago
You are very right!
Rykhart 1 year ago
Rape is easier to define than you might realize. ... any sexual act where you do not have two consenting parties.
msginca 1 year ago
Very good point
BibleRefuter 1 year ago
I was *raped* at 15 ... by a 19 yr old girl(friend of the family). So that you all know, She used intimidation against a 15 yr old kid who was, at that time, painfully shy around the opposite gender. For anyone thinking "wow, lucky kid" ... I assure you, it was *nightmareish*
msginca 1 year ago
@msginca I had a similar situation when I was 16, of an older woman who forced herself on me. She thought she could make me 100% straight. It was definitely nightmarish and she thought what she did was funny. What pisses me off is that she would likely not have been charged with anything had I turned her in.
tattooskin72 1 year ago
Nonsense, rape for the most part is all about sex. When am having my rape fantasies, its never about violence. but all about me having sex with a forbidden fruit. Also, you rarely hear about the rapes of fat, ugly people. Men hunt big game targets and a big, ugly girl is really no challenge when compared to a cute one. That an hetro men raping guys in prison
uche007us 1 year ago
@uche007us
The confusion here is between rape fantasies, and the act of rape. Rape fantasy is about exploring sexual taboo and forbidden fruit as you say but the actual act of rape is entirely different. Just as going on a death plummet themed roller coaster is fun, but plummeting to your death is, most likely, not.
AnonEyeMouse 1 year ago
The main affront of "Rape" is the religious connotations. In an objective society, violence/assault would be dealt with straight-forward, as is..;. Should it be allowed? No.. not anymore than walking up and beating someone down.. Is it the same as just hitting someone once or twice? No.. but logical, objective standards need to be derived. Rape should be treated the same as any other violence. No more, no less
xESOTERlC 1 year ago
Rape is Rape. IF they manage to change that anyhow, shame on them. I am a man, and raping a woman is not an option for me (apart from all usual reasons) because it is not sex, it is just violence. Whoever needs to release sexual tension, is welcome to watch some Porn or call a call girl..... Rape is for those who look for a completely different Thrill, and that is of violence and abuse.... Rape is not sex. I am amazed that people can maintain an erection while attacking a panicked woman. :(
graphattic 1 year ago
Rape is not always about violence. It depends entirely on the context and the person of course.
For instance, date rape is almost exclusively about sex. A man wants to have sex with someone, and so they drug a victim and abuse them or abuse a person who has voluntarily injested enough alcohol/drugs to be incapacitated. I think this rape occurs a lot more than people think.
However the majority of rape is domestic, and the majority of that rape is definitely about control.
KonijNx2 1 year ago
Does it MATTER whether it's about sex or not for the perpetrator? Does it matter whether a crazy person thinks he's justified in shooting a group of people? Rape is STILL an act of violence and abuse regardless of intention. It should be dealt with as a serious assault.
kelarael 1 year ago
@kelarael "Rape is STILL an act of violence and abuse regardless of intention" thank you. my sentiments exactly. it seems a dogma has been established that gets people up in arms when challenged regarding this.
BillKiernan 1 year ago
@BillKiernan It's such a powerful word that really needs more differentiation- you hear of cases where a 18 year old sleeps with his 16 year old girlfriend and is convicted of rape, they subsequently get married, have children, but he is not allowed to be alone with his own children because he's classified as a sex offender.
Then there's those who later regret having sex with someone or they were both so drunk they don't remember and accuse someone of rape, even though at the time consented.
kelarael 1 year ago
@kelarael It matters because understanding motivation is key to devising interventions to prevent rape, and also to predicting re-offending risk. To say that rape is about sex or that it is about power both are somewhat simplistic statements. Research (mostly involving men who rape women) suggests rapists can be divided into those primarily motivated by: 1) opportunity, 2) pervasive anger, 3) sadistic sexual gratification, 4) non-sadistic sexual gratification and 5) vindictiveness.
Parlancheq 1 year ago
im sorry but rape isnt about control. rape is about sex. plain and simple. my cousin was just convicted of rape and he didnt do it because of control. he did it because he was obsessed with the girl and he thought he loved her. he wanted to have sex with her and she didnt feel the same way. sense he has little to no compassion or empathy, he forced her to do it instead of just finding a willing partner. my cousin was a virgin when he committed the rape btw. thata why im sure it was bout sex . .
keggerous 1 year ago
@keggerous It was very much about control and the details you give prove it.
1: obsession - Those who are obsessed fantasise about changing or controlling the behaviours of those they are obsessed with. When the fantasy is realized, it is the control that they are getting off on.
2: lack of empathy: Considering your wants more important than the needs of others requires dehumanization of the subject. turning them into a machine to be controlled.
wyrdness1 1 year ago
@wyrdness1 ur far from proving anything . . . the point i was trying to make was simple and u missed it completely. he didnt control his "victim" he didnt exert force onto her to control her. in fact, she was drunk and out cold. he didnt even get caught for that time. he got caught when he broke into her house, took his clothes off, and grinded on top of her. ur wrong about lack of empathy too. i think my wants are more important then a lot of ppl's but i dont dehumanize them
keggerous 1 year ago
@keggerous
'i think my wants are more important then a lot of ppl's but i dont dehumanize them'
You are comparing wants with wants, not wants with needs, as I stated above.
wyrdness1 1 year ago
@wyrdness1 his lack of empathy allowed for him to commit his crimes. ur trying to argue that he committed his crimes specifically to control and id argue that when he decided to rape her when she was drunk. he was doing so with the intent of NOT having to control or overpower her. thats the nail in ur coffin right there.
also, u dont know what his obsessions were about. they seemed to be about sex, hence the having sex with her. . . u havent proved anything. just assumed and asserted
keggerous 1 year ago
@keggerous
'ur trying to argue that he committed his crimes specifically to control'
Don't straw man me man. I didn't say he wasn't looking for sex. I'm saying he used her body, and subverted her will. Both of these are forms of control. They may not be explicitly violent, but they ARE control, and there is an underlying violence behind them.
wyrdness1 1 year ago
@wyrdness1 well now that u put it like that, i dont think we're that far off opinion wise. of course he had control over her and went against her will. unlike the video, i dont think rape is the delivery system for control. i think some ppl find they need to control others in order to rape. its so obvious that rape is about sex. n every case of rape there is sex but not every case of rape has violence or distinct "control" like with physical restraint. in my cousins case she was asleep
keggerous 1 year ago
I don't know that anyone these days sees rape as anything other than violence. This mostly seems like a semantic, or definitional debate to me. Rape (traditionally, and by the FBI) is defined as the unwanted penetration of the vagina by a penis. Many states like Michigan have stopped using the term at all, and instead refer to rape as "criminal sexual conduct". Which covers many forms of sexual violence.
TheNakedAtheist 1 year ago
Have never truly voiced this before, but I love your channel :)
edenscancer 1 year ago
Don't be a pussy, men can't be raped.
:P
mynameaborat993 1 year ago
Someday, Nellie... someday it will get through people's thick skulls. One step at a time, one person at a time. I grew up with a dad who loves telling jokes and one of his favorites was "there's no such thing as rape cause a woman can run faster with her skirt up than a man can with his pants down." It's taken me years to get him to understand that rape is nothing to joke about and is not about sex. All hope is not lost!
debbieomi 1 year ago
@debbieomi so if it were about sex, it would be better somehow?
BillKiernan 1 year ago
@BillKiernan If what were about sex? Rape? The bad joke? *confused*
debbieomi 1 year ago
@debbieomi right. i'm saying, if in some cases rape *were* about sex, would that somehow diminish how horrible of an act it is?
BillKiernan 1 year ago
@BillKiernan No. What in my comment led you to even ask me such a question?
debbieomi 1 year ago
@debbieomi "It's taken me years to get him to understand that rape is nothing to joke about and *is not about sex*"
BillKiernan 1 year ago
@BillKiernan Alrighty, so do you take the position that rape can sometimes be about sex? If you do, then we agree.
debbieomi 1 year ago
@debbieomi cool. i was just checking because sometimes i get jumped all over for asserting that, and it always confuses me. that said, i believe that the evidence shows it's usually much more about violence and domnination and humiliation than it is about sex. but the idea that "it has nothing to do with sex" (not your quote) is just too dogmatic and doesn't allow for the many scenarios out there people face. anyway, cheers.
BillKiernan 1 year ago
@BillKiernan Cheers!
debbieomi 1 year ago
Nellie, you need to link to Michael's video in the D-box : )
FantasmaBAnco 1 year ago
Dead on!
ICharmaine 1 year ago
Years ago, when my mum was a nurse, she had to look after rape victims. Believe me *anyone* can get raped; male, female, pretty, ugly, young, old, big, tiny... it doesn't matter, they can ALL be raped.
One poor old Chinese lady in her 70s was gang raped in an *inner-city* park (in a medium density residential area) when she was going for a walk at 7am on a week day. She was dragged by her hair over gravel, and the bastards gave her *several* STIs after raping her anally, orally and vaginally.
FantasmaBAnco 1 year ago
@MouseHusic In a way yes, although to say "inconsequential" is not what I mean, Sex is used for a very specific reasons to degrade someone as well as inflict the violence, but it's not about the "sex" it's about the power over another individual. Does that make sense?
nelliediddle 1 year ago
I think that rape goes beyond the physical violence. As far as I understand it, rape is, also, a forceful violation of someone's personal will, regardless of whether physical violence occurred or not. Such as forcing someone into a sexual or other act, against that someone's will, under a threat. So if someone threatened another person that they will do something terrible to them, in any way, unless they conduct, say, a sexual act, the perpetrator should be charged with threatening and rape.
flyingshitter 1 year ago 2
@MouseHusic toast remains toast, buttered or jammed or peanut-butter it is the delivery system for something else
nelliediddle 1 year ago
i don't believe that rape is always about control, but more often than not it is. sometimes it's just about a strong, horney guy without morals or common human decency, who sees an opportunity and takes it.
BillKiernan 1 year ago
@BillKiernan so someone who holds a person down and forces them to do what the they want them to regardless of that person saying no, in what ever way they do is not exerting their control over that person?
nelliediddle 1 year ago
@nelliediddle they are exerting control, but that doesn't mean it's "not about sex." there is this dogma that has developed via academia that rape has nothing to do with sex but is only about control. i agree to a large extent, and most studies show it. at the same time from women i've spoken to and experiences i've had (no, not as a rapist) sometimes it's just about scumbags taking an opportunity when they see it arise.
BillKiernan 1 year ago
@BillKiernan as apposed to the dogma of people thinking they are "just scumbags taking advantage of an opportunity when they see it instead of criminals?
nelliediddle 1 year ago
@nelliediddle who said they weren't criminals?
BillKiernan 1 year ago
@nelliediddle it seems you think i'm minimizing rape by stating sometimes it IS about sex, why? it is in my opinion, pretty much the most heinous thing one human being can do to another, besides torture (which it can be a form of). yet somehow i'm being painted as a cheerleader for rapists because i'm allowing for instances that are in fact, about sex. it's not the first time i've gotten this kind of reaction for voicing this opinion either.
BillKiernan 1 year ago
@BillKiernan it's the use of words such as "just a _____" and taking the" opportunity" which negate the severity of the crime. Taking what you want regardless of anything else Is about control. If it's not the 1st time then perhaps re-think how you are trying to word things. Would you agree that forcing anyone to do something against their will because you are bigger & stronger is an expression of I am more powerful and can make you do it
nelliediddle 1 year ago
@nelliediddle just thought . . . what do u mean when u say expression? because to me when someone does something because they are bigger and stronger, it seems to be out of opportunity and apathy . . . being able to control someone because of ur size allows iu to take advantage of them and gives u the opportunity to do evil, immoral things. if someone put more value on the pleasure of sex then the well being of a women, then it follows logically for that person to rape. same with stealing . . .
keggerous 1 year ago
@nelliediddle if i grab someone who is not as strong as me by the hair and drag them through a bank with a knife to their throat, punch them in the face, and scream at them while i tell them to open up the safe, does that mean my actions have nothing to do with money but is rather about asserting control and expressing how powerful i am? can a man maintain an erection the entire time he robs a bank? robbing the bank may be about control, but it's also about money.
BillKiernan 1 year ago
@nelliediddle in the same way, rape *can* and, as i've said, often is more about control and dominance and humiliation than anything else, but sex is a part of it, always. if a man is not aroused, he can't stay erect, especially when he has to struggle. so, sex factors in there somehow. it seems there's a scale, and my "just a scumbag taking an opportunity" statement is expressing one end of that scale, the horney sociopath. neither is better or worse, anyone who rapes is equally culpable.
BillKiernan 1 year ago
@nelliediddle
Seriously, where did Billkiernan suggest that these people aren't criminals?
Please, don't be so dishonest.
KonijNx2 1 year ago
@nelliediddle
I think he is saying that rather then claim it is always about control, a dogmatic and presumptive notion anyways(thanks to the use of "always"), he is proposing that sometimes it IS about sex and the rapist is just taking advantage of the situation not as a means of controlling anyone but just for sex.
Your reply was misrepresenting his argument and a poor attempt at that. His argument was about the use of "always about control", not if it wasn't criminal. Don't be so dishonest.
dragonmatt5 1 year ago
@dragonmatt5 I haven't even watched the vid yet, but I have a good idea what it's going to be like just from her comments above.. She's apparently a very simple minded person. I'd be surprised if she wasn't religious
xESOTERlC 1 year ago
@xESOTERlC
There is irony in the uninformed calling someone else simple minded...
I don't know how she will respond, sort of the point of talking to someone in the first place, but if I had to wager, I'd think this is just a sensitive subject and people can react to it differently then less sensitive ones. I'll just keep calm, post the simple truth of what I see and go from there. Can't dismiss someone as simple minded though just because they don't agree.
dragonmatt5 1 year ago
@nelliediddle Wow. This is messed up. I would say you're projecting your issues about control on to this conversation.
azumaninjay 1 year ago
@BillKiernan If a man wants to have sex with a woman, then it may start off about sex. If she consents, it's sex. If she does not, it's rape, and even if he originally intended to get sex, he's made it about control by taking hers away. You seem to believe that for this to count, rapists have to be thinking "Gee, I'm gonna rape someone, but it's not gonna be about sex, it's gonna be about control!". It's not always an intent to take control, but that is the functional effect apart from intent.
inuyashaxx 1 year ago
@inuyashaxx "It's not always an intent to take control, but that is the functional effect apart from intent" i'm not arguing that point, i agree that is the effect. the point is, to say it has nothing to do with sex is simply not true, especially if sex is the only thing on the persons mind the entire time the act is occuring. you can just as easily say the physical violence is the "delivery system" for the sex in some cases. again, how either scenario is seen as less heinous is beyond me....
BillKiernan 1 year ago
@nelliediddle its not purely about control, it is a combination of sexual urge and power. if it was purely about power there wouldnt need to be a sexual act.
power and harming others is what turns them on sexually. i dont rape girls, not because i know its morally wrong, i dont rape girls because i find fear and crying a turn off and also the guilt i would feel would turn me off.
but what difference does it make? either way its just as immoral, either way the end result is still the same
robertwc82 1 year ago
I remember learning about this while watching Law and Order SVU. I was like 9 or 10, but I remembered it, and helped console an ex-girlfriend by pointing out that rape is motivated by violence. She said it made her feel better because she always felt that she was taken advantage of, and she felt guilty that maybe she led the rapist on somehow. For some reason viewing it as physical abuse helped her. I don;t know why
Sabohaque 1 year ago
@Sabohaque I think because it begins to get rid of the shame society put on sex,or that may be one of the reasons.
nelliediddle 1 year ago
@nelliediddle Now that I think about it, she was really disappointed that her virginity was stolen as well. I remember her saying that she wanted to save it until she fell in love.
Sabohaque 1 year ago
@MouseHusic Delivery system for violence...toast is a delivery system for butter
nelliediddle 1 year ago
@nelliediddle
And bagel is a delivery system for cream cheese?
wyrdness1 1 year ago
Absolutely right.
100%
AGNOSSI 1 year ago
ABSOLUTELY!
2bsirius 1 year ago
I agree with you, though I have not watched Michael's video yet. I'll do so now.
RHYMEMAIDEN1 1 year ago
Thanks you just nearly repeated my comment on Michaels video
goxster 1 year ago
Wow, the title really got me. I'm glad it's not what it says. I never equated it the way you have Even though part of the reason (among others) I divorced my wife was (cough) (emotional abuse.) She had such a fit it ended up being a bargaining point and only the code/statute was used on the divorce papers. It is all about control. I know this first hand. Thanks for the vid. and understanding.
pumpstations 1 year ago
Nice response; very well said.
prodigyat9 1 year ago
Of course men can be raped. By other men is the obvious way, but it's entirely possible for a woman to force herself on a man, particularly if drink or drugs are involved.
CuriousMoth 1 year ago
@CuriousMoth of course it's still VIOLENCE against another human being violence & control
nelliediddle 1 year ago
@nelliediddle I dunno' if it is about control so much as just taking what you want. I dunno' though, don't know much about it.
CuriousMoth 1 year ago
@nelliediddle Oh my god, what is wrong with some of these commenters? "Just taking what you want" IS ABOUT CONTROL.
inuyashaxx 1 year ago
@inuyashaxx no its about getting what u want. ppl dont steal because they have a control fetish. they do it because they want what they take. sometimes ppl have issues were they steal for the sheer rush of it. again, not out of control . . .
keggerous 1 year ago
@keggerous Do you understand the difference between intent and effect? The difference between premeditated murder and unpremeditated? In the former, it was planned, in the latter, it's spontaneous; two different intents (or lack of intent), that have the same functional effect, which is somebody died. Whether a man rapes a woman because he wants sex, or because he wants to terrorize and control her, the END RESULT is about the change of control in both cases. This is not that difficult.
inuyashaxx 1 year ago
@inuyashaxx the conversation is about INTENT! not effect . . . of course, in order to rape someone, u need to take control of them. this says nothing as to why they raped them in the first place. ive never said that the ppl who got raped felt like they lost control. ive only ever said that the reason ppl rape is because it sexually arouses them, not because of control. ur miss representing my arguments