William Lane Craig just rehashes St. Aquinas' tired arguments and mostly only debates people who are younger and philosophically less literate than him.
It was a different story when he debated Christopher hitches,and SAM Harris he didn't sound so smart with is tiresome cosmological/teleological arguments when he went against atheist of some stature, he is just an other religious faker like all the rest .
And what a joke that he is on this crappy show (Michael coren hahaha what a joke)
Is that a joke? He debated Hitchens for 2 hours and by the end WLC still didn't seem to be able to grasp what atheism even meant. He defends hideous acts in the Bible including massacres in the name of god, he is also a very poor philosopher. All he has is that he is a good and confident speaker.
The word "world" is also synonymous with the Universe, especially in philosophical discussions. That Craig used this term shouldn't be that surprising since he is after all a philosopher.
@neoverse "Christians who actually study it?" Are you seriously going to defend the pseudo-scientific views of the fundamentalist young earth creationists?
This is one think I don't like about Craig, he believes the BB BS. He needs to stick to his theology and leave the age stuff to the Christians who actually study it.
@v33punk, you wrote me "Ha! You are such a cheapskate. Attaboy! You twisted the meaning of one word. Figures tho..That's what naturalists typically do, twist things to fit their worldview.
Now, if there is a power like a god or gods that created a Universe of and estimated 400 billion galaxies and 300,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets, you nor Lane or any human would not know what that power thinks or wants.
A Omnipotent, Omnipresence, Omniscience god would not be constrained by the bible.
@PistisIasis, How does a god tell you this and why isn't that god helping those being butchered, raped, starved, tortured and all the terrible things that are being done to our fellow man while making Pat Robertson a billionaire off the backs with those with meager earnings.
Why is that god letting children be born with terrible diseases and living a short life in misery.
If there is a power like a god that created 400 billion galaxies intellectually we would be like single cell organism.
@MrHoolits (part 1) The question here is: Is God responsible for our sins? Here we are confronted with the mystery of human freedom. Human freedom is an innate good, and God gave it to us so that we could use it to love him and each other. If God interfered in our freedom, though, then we would lose the capacity to love, because if love is not given freely, it's not love. We have to recognize that God loves us so much, he will respect a person's wish to go to Hell if they choose greed over him.
@MrHoolits (part 2) Don't misunderstand, though. God invites us to Heaven, and he wants us to do good. If we didn't have freedom, then all the good things we do would mean NOTHING, though. Freedom is what allows us to grow in holiness and love, and it is our ticket to heaven! Freedom is good news, and that's why we have to try and help others understand that although God allows evil, that he has a plan for us all, and it WILL lead us to happiness. God doesn't commit evil. We do.
@ssjSephirothhiei, If there is a power like gods, no human could possibly know what that power thinks or wants and would never be tied to ancient texts.
The Christian god is zealous, murderous and heartless. That is the god that murdered all land life by drowning including children, pregnant women and the purest of us all. That is not what I called love but would call a hateful vengeful god.
There is no proof of an invisible god, heaven, hell angels or devils and you must be dead to see them.
@MrHoolits First paragraph how do you know that to be true? If no human could possibly know what that power thinks or wants how can you make such a claim "He would never be tied to ancient texts"? "Purest of us all." Funny I never met a single one. I don't think mother Teresa would even think she was. I got to say that's a pretty big claim on your next paragraph before I get into that I would need to know do you think morals are objective or subjective?
@FamousDave2186, Pat Robertson, Jerry Farwell other religions leaders, Televangelists and Politicians are always claiming god told them to do this or that.
In reality you are not following a god but are following what those that wrote your religious texts telling what a god thinks or wants.
The god of the bible is not moral as he murdered all land life by drowning including pregnant women, babies, children, etc. when that god could have easily disposed of the wicked. That is a jealous tyrant.
@MrHoolits I'm not defending them, and you're avoiding my points. You claim no human could possibly know what that power thinks or wants but then how can you make such a claim that He would never be tied to ancient texts if you have no idea what He thinks or wants. Who are you to make such a claim? Next he did dispose of the wicked from the flood Noah and his family were the only ones who served God, and again you avoid my point I ask if morals are objective or subjective what are they? Last..
@FamousDave2186, Again, no human could no what an omniscient and omnipotent power thinks or wants.
Anyone claiming they do are insane or a liar. People can pretend they are like those pretending they are speaking in tongues.
Who am I to make such a claim. Some one who lives in 2011 and realizes all religions are man made and one is not better than the other since they are all man made.
This is why religion is called Faith because if it were true it would be Fact & we would no longer need Faith.
@MrHoolits let's summize your last statement, 1st paragraph: no proof, 2nd ad homenim, 3rd no proof but very egotistick I might add, 4th one, I'll give you an example. Let's say you need surgury and you're studing the doctor, you find out that he is very good in this field but you'll still have faith that everything will go alright with the surgury and if something does go wrong that he can correct the mishap. So that's how this works here, for alot of people it is personal I didn't know...
@FamousDave2186, You think needing proof is egotistic? I give you relevant examples, yet you accuse me ad hominem then reply with a doctor. It's silly and there is only one real point.
You don't need proof of any god and rely on faith by superstitious people who wrote anonymous Hebrew texts 3000 years ago.
I am not an Atheist. I'm Agnostic and don't accept any man made god but don't discount the possibility of supernatural powers in the Universe but not anything omniscient or omnipotent.
@MrHoolits first off no Your statement saying you live in 2011 which you seem to imply makes you smart that's egotistic? So in others word by that statement your an atheist because you don't believe in God simple as that. I think you need to look up some of the words you use another point is when you said morals are both subjective and objective. Do you even know what those words mean. Objective means independent of human opinion, example the laws of nature hold whether we acknowledge them or ..
@FamousDave2186, I've told you already that I am not an Atheist but Agnostic. I don't think you're comprehending what I am writing. I give you examples like killing, stealing and lying and you reply with how coffee tastes. I address the immorality of the bible which condones killing disobedient children, homosexuals and working on the sabbath. And yes, The bible condones killing, society does not at least the good ones as Islam will kill homosexuals and others for apostasy.
@MrHoolits What I did which you missed the point was to show you that morals can't be both objective and subjective they're either one or the other and you've given me no reason to think otherwise. I noticed you completely ignored that one. You claim there's no evidence for God but you don't look at the arguments I stated why is that, that my friend is the true description of ignorance. Yeah you told me but your explaintion says something different, an agnostic is someone who says they don't..
@FamousDave2186. You compared subjective objective morals to coffee while I tried to use in relation to morals like killing, stealing and lying.
Ignored the evidence for god? There is no evidence for all the 10s of 1000s of gods that is why you must have Faith. If there was evidence then there would be no Atheists, Agnostics and all the people of all religions would follow 1 god.
I was once Christian, turned Atheist and Agnostic because I cannot explain an estimated 500 billion galaxies. Cont.
@MrHoolits yeah you ignored the evidence I've yet to hear you talk about any of those arguments I've stated eariler and told you to look up and yes even with evidence people will still deny something. You more than likely think evoultion is fact well you claim there's evidence for that but yet people (such as me) think its not fact at all, you get what I'm saying on that one. Second you claim I don't know what agnosticism means but yet I don't hear any rebuttle to that one. What Facts? I...
@MrHoolits conti: not. Subjective means dependent on human opinion, example would be matters of taste, you might like coffee but I don't. Now with that said how can they be both according to your worldview. If you said that what I'm doing is immoral which you probably do think, all I have to say is yeah? Who says? You. Who died and made you king? Man cannot make objective moral codes only quackes can do that. You are right to say that we know killing was wrong before the 10 commandments but...
@MrHoolits again who says. Under whatever you want to call it there's no way to justifiy why morals are objective you have to admit they're subjective but if they're subjective you really have no right to claim that something is immoral now do you? It seems there's no bases for your argument right there. Last truthfully I was trying to change your mind I asked you to look at the arguments I gave you from that website it seems you have no desire to do so, that's your decesion no mine you do want
@FamousDave2186, I've already told you that I am not trying to change your mind and you can believe in invisible gods, heaven, hell, angels and devils that can only be seen by dead people. I don't care.
But trying to change a rational person to accept ancient Bronze Age fables as true boggles the mind. It would be like someone trying to convince to become a Hindu, or a Muslim or Scientologist. You would reject then or could they convince that those are those are the true beliefs of gods.
@MrHoolits conti: those arguments I've stated until I was 25 but with these arguments it has brought reason and logic, I've seen none with athiesm in fact I've gotten some from you guys such as there is no evidence because you can't prove a negative, so why believe it? You just prove on the contrary it true, and if you can't you reject it. So I'll ask knowing full well what the answer will be what proof and evidence do you have that atheism is accurate and correct?
@FamousDave2186, I am not trying to change your mind nor could change your mind in believing in invisible god, heaven, hell, angels and devils that can only be seen by the dead.
John Adams said it best in a letter to Thomas Jefferson:
Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents.
@MrHoolits conti: you want to do. At least I've looked at the evidence on both sides and come to the conclussion that Christian Theism is accurate and correct. Can you truthfully say you've done the same?
@FamousDave2186, Now there is no evidence of any of 1000s of gods. This is the truth. This is why you must have faith. William is not a scientist but a philosopher.
The Greeks and all societies have their moral code. You will find this true anywhere in the world regarding rape, murder, theft,etc.
As an Agnostic and the Atheist countries like Sweden, Norway, etc have far less crime then the U.S. which is the most religious of the western countries yet leads the world in murders & incarceration.
@MrHoolits conti: know if God exist or not, you on the other hand are saying He doesn't which makes you an athiest whether you admit that or not I could care less. Last those countries have less population than the United States you may want to check your facts before you state something. I use to study polictics and heard this exact argument from socialists, don't use strawman arguments like that again.
@FamousDave2186, cont: But don't accept any man made religions as proof of any god. ou don't know what agnosticism means. I use facts. You use strawman arguments and opinions as facts.
Wikipedia
The United States' incarceration rate is the highest in the world, at 737 persons imprisoned per 100,000 and more than 1 in 100 adults is now confined in an American jail or prison. and has 4% of the world's population and 25% of the world's incarcerated population.
@MrHoolits conti: never heard any reason to think according to your worldview why morals are objective and subjective as you claim and I proved to you why they can't be both so are you now saying they're objective? If they are according to your worldview how do you know? What's the basis for that claim? And last Wikipedia, really? You do know that anyone can edit stuff in there and the people who make the articals and have you ever heard of 70% of people don't believe in statistics? Next like...
@MrHoolits conti: I stated eariler we have one of the most population in the world and since most of the majority believes in a creator of course you're gonna get numbers such as that, I never claimed I was any better than you what I have claimed is under your worldview you have no basis for your moral landscape as right as to state that morals are objective and not subjective. But what grounds? God is the basis for objective moral values and duties.
@FamousDave2186,Again there is no proof of any god. If there was then there would not 10s of 1000s of religions and 30,000 different Christian denominations & no Atheists or Agnostics.
Your beliefs are based on Bronze Age stories past down by superstitious people thru word of mouth. So your beliefs are man made and not god's word. Or does god only care about those people in ancient Palestine and Israel showing himself no other place on Earth.
This is why all religions are based on Faith not fact
@MrHoolits You keep saying the same thing like a broken record player but I don't hear any reason why to think that. I've heard nothing on the arguments I've stated you keep saying there's no proof but yet you don't check out the arguments. Since you have no desire to look at them I guess you would be considered the unreasonable one here. Second, again you haven't show me where's your basis for morarlitiy, if you're claiming common sense why is it then that some people don't have that? What...
@FamousDave2186, I'll make it simple. There is an estimated 500 billion galaxies in the The observable universe of 70 billion light years & it takes only 8 minutes for light to reach Earth from the Sun.
Digest that for a minute.
Genesis Chapter 1 describes God creating a flat Earth with a dome and water above and below the dome. Earth was fixed and the Sun rotated around the Earth. This is what you believe God thinks & did if you take the bible literally or reinterpret using 2011 sensibilities.
@MrHoolits No if you read the Bible it doesn't say a flat earth, in fact science at first said the earth was flat now granted you will never admit that and again never said the sun rotates around the earth again maybe if you read the bible instead of just assuming things you'd had learn that. Your next comment is again assuming facts not in evidence ad homenims galore on that one. And last you missed the point I never said you or thomas paine was immoral I'm saying where is your foundation for..
@FamousDave2186, Genesis Chapter 1 states the Earth is flat with a dome and water above and below the dome.
Again, if there is a god, you don't know nor does any man know what that god thinks or wants. The ancient anonymous Hebrew texts and the Gospels were written by man, not god.
Morals is based on society which is why the Church was silent on slavery but burned witches.
Societies throughout the world found murder, stealing and lying immoral without the use of the bible.
@MrHoolits conti: or anything that suggests Hitler made himself accountable to a Pastor or Priest in anyway. In fact, his execution of Christian pastors, like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, should be enough to convince anyone with half a brain that he was not a Christian. I'm not the one who's confused you don't even know what flip flop and ad honinems even are, and your point clearly shows that, what I did was showed examples that you should be able to understand because I feel like I'm arguing with a
@MrHoolits conti: child and not a 49 year old. You're refuseal to look at the arguments I've stated clearly shows you could careless if I'm right otherwise you'd argue those points but again you don't. Next you can show me all the clips you want I've studied what it says. The Bible both has literal and metaphor statements, to prove the Bible doesn't say the earth is flat it says in Isaiah 40:20 He that sittih (metaphor just means He rules) on the CIRCLE OF THE EARTH. You keep claiming one thing
@FamousDave2186, cont, Yes, I gave a short clip on Genesis Chapter 1 and also a lecture by Professor of Religious Studies Bart Ehrman a world authority on the gospels.
Those that wrote the bible had no idea that the Earth was a sphere and when it was pointed out by Copernicus and later Galileo who was arrested for heresy. You can't put 21st century sensibilities into the minds that wrote the anonymous texts 2,000 years ago or so.
@MrHoolits conti: than another. Make up your mind just choose one morals objective or subjective? I'm not gonna argue for the sake of arguing it shows you could careless about the truth. This will be my last post I promise you that, So go ahead say what you want help build that false confindence of you "winning" to make you feel good. We'll let the people who do come on this to decided who's right and wrong.
@FamousDave2186, cont, I speak the truth and the truth is that all written texts were written by man and not god. No human could possibly know what a god would think or want though many claim they do,
Winning making me feel good? No, that's not my motivation. You will never stop believing in a invisible god that can only be seen by the dead. I just don't like people claiming they know what a god thinks or wants because that is a lie.
@FamousDave2186,cont, Either way, morals are set by society though the church killed for heresy, apostasy, burning of witches tolerated slavery,all subjective morals by man, not god.
Or as Thomas Jefferson said:
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What have been the effects of coercion? To make on half of the fools and the other half hypocrites.
Dave, why not just say you have Faith. That is what the Vatican and their doctrine that allows for the Big Bang and Evolution and take the bible literally not figuratively.
Hoolits, you will never convince someone so religious to ever question his beliefs. His faith won't allow him to look past the bible. Anyone quoting scriptures will always take the bible over evidence or lack of evidence.
Hitler was a Catholic and Christian by most accounts.
@casyatbat I told him about the evidence from the cosmological arguments, the telological argument from finetuning, the moral argument, the octological argument, and the historal accounts of Jesus. No where will you find him arguing any of those points I don't think he even cared to look at them. Second I asked him if morals are objective or subjective he first says both, then he flips to subjective then says some are objective I asked him what was the foundation never got an answer on that one.
@FamousDave2186, I'm Agnostic so don't if gods exist or not. I will say that for anyone believing in a god do so due to faith as I wrote earlier. The Vatican accepts Evolution and the Church of England apologized to Darwin.
This is silly. Atheists don't believe in God because there is no evidence. Agnostics don't know if gods exist or not and religious people have faith that god exists in lieu of evidence.
I'm familiar with Bart Ehrman and is very good. I watched him debate William Craig.
@casyatbat I think I've seen that one and yes you can prove a negative just prove on the contrary is true. If athiesm can't prove itself than it should be rejected hands down, no proof,no evidence I think that takes alot of faith to believe since it has no proof. Next ok you think morality is subjective at least you're honest with your worldview, but I must ask if morals are subjective how can we tell what exactly is right or wrong? what if socitity decides that killing is ok? You see I know...
@casyatbat conti: that morals are objective because if they weren't one we'd have no right to say what is wrong and what is right. The moral argument from Dr William Lane Craig clearly shows this one with his debate with Sam Harris. I would also ask you to go to his website and check out the arguments that I gave you eariler. You can claim there's no evidence but that doesn't make it right. Look at those arguments for yourself with an open mind and an open heart I think you'll see that the...
@FamousDave2186, Atheists are atheist because there is no proof of god. If there was proof, there would be no atheists. Lane Craig is a philosopher not a scientist. He can philosophy describe god as does anyone describing their respective deity.
I've seen the Lane Craig debate with Sam Harris is also a philosopher but has a PhD in neuroscience and if you are religious then Craig reinforced believers same as Harris.
The Ehrmann vs Craig debates were much better in my opinion.
@FamousDave2186. Morals are set but society whether they are right or wrong. Your parents should be the ones who instill morality. Children of the Mafia are religious and kill and steal like their fathers as it is morality acceptable. Televangelists living the good life on the backs of gullible followers, promising miracles, delivering none.
One can argue all day about the existence of any god but it will always be a philosophical discussion because there is no material proof.
@casyatbat You keep claiming there's no proof but yet I don't hear anything against the arguments I've stated, I'll send you a pm . So if morals are subjective how can you clearly say what is right or wrong? We could never have said the nazi's were wrong in what they did if morals are subjective. So I would even think you'd agree that some things are wrong so let's say someone steals from you and then says well that's how I was taught would you then claim that its ok? No. You would state...
@casyatbat conti: wrong. So objective moral values do exist and the argument I'll send to you will prove that futher. And last you know what I say to those people who do what you've stated they are morally wrong because objective moral values do exist and they are stealing and cheating off of people but if morals are subjective I really couldn't say that, if socitey thinks its ok. I thank God that's wrong.
@FamousDave2186, I was brought up Catholic, believed in god, said prayers before bed and dinner and attended Catechism taught by nuns until I stop going in Jr. High School. I am now rational my mind is free and no longer cling to ancient superstitions.
There was no point on sending me all those arguments as again there is no proof of any god and if there was, there would be 1 god, 1 religion and no Atheists or Agnostics.
@casyatbat Well you've just admitted it takes way more faith to be an athiest and agnostic. You don't even care to look at them so whos got the rational mind? You keep claiming that morals come from society well who says? Just you stating that doesn't make it true. I've seen that debate and if my memory serves me the people agreed with Craig not Ehrman, now you can say that the majority of people were christians but if athiest don't care to show up and watch these debates it really show they're
@FamousDave2186, No, I said if there was proof of a god there would be no Atheists, Agnostics and all people would follow 1 god. I'm talking about evidence and you talk about faith.
You keep dancing around reinterpreting what I write and basically making things up. I did not say anything about who who agreed with Ehrman or Craig. I long ago stopped believing that Jesus walked on water, turned water into wine, and all the miracles that Jefferson removed from his bible.
@casyatbat What I've stated is proof I'm sorry but even with evidence people still don't accept things because they don't want to believe which is exactly what you're doing. Jefferson was wrong to do that. Next I'm not proselytizing (not even sure that's a word). If man came up with morals what makes them right then since man is falliable. Again the statement who says falls perfectly for this for no man can come up with a perfect society. Next you are right they're are evil people but if morals
@FamousDave2186, cont, Meanwhile it costs 1 million dollars per soldier for support, is fucked.
There will always be evil people, despots, murderers, rapists, thieves, grifters like televangelist and regular conmen but not because of some invisible Satan influencing their actions.
They say Hitler killed millions, true. But those doing the killing were Catholics,Protestants, Lutherans and people of Faith because they were doing was god's work.
@FamousDave2186, If you think that morality is based on a god or a religion or ancient books, fine. It doesn't make it true but does in your mind.
Morals come from society and the Church now follows luckily but slowly when they use to lead and killed and imprisoned many for apostasy, heresy, burned witches and all the evil shit that comes out of a person's self righteous sick perception of morals and will harm those that don't agree at least publicly.
@casyatbat conti: character now doesn't it. Now you claimed earlier that morals are subjective but then you said the evil things people have done. How can you say that if morals are subjective? Again who says they're wrong if morals are subjective, what if society were to say that's ok then? You see I don't care what society says you are right to say that's evil but under your worldview you can't no matter how awful something may seem. Your worldview is madness my friend I'd ask you to read...
@FamousDave2186, Cont. You are now proselytizing like Jehovah Witness going door to door. Since I don't accept any god invented by man and all religious texts were written by man then, all morals were developed by man.
See you'll never accept the fact that I am rational. This irrational view of evil like dipshit Bush who lied us in to War in Iraq, killing 1000s of soldiers (I'm a Navy Veteran) and killed 100,000s in Iraq because 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq' is fucked.
@casyatbat are subjective whos to say whatever someone is doing is evil you cannot. Since morals are just subjective its just someone's opinion. No those people were not doing God's work at all they were doing what was in they're evil hearts. and again if morals are subjective you really have no right to say that's evil, that would be an objective claim. I'm sorry my friend but I'll never accept your worldview. You have no foundation for your claims.
@casyatbat I am dealing with evidence maybe if you could argue my points I'd stop. your second point is a little inaccurate if you look at the actual dead sea scrolls which you can by the way you see thats inaccurate what you just stated, the historal accounts of Jesus not only talks about the greek editors but also Josephus who was Jewish by the way and is considered a first century historian, also as well as Luke with his impressive writing skills shows both that he can write and also most...
@FamousDave2186, Again, if there was evidence of what you perceive as a god and those of other religions then you would no longer need faith. There is no evidence that a god got Mary pregnant and that was the son of god. It all takes faith. Josephus wrote about a lot of events but wasn't an t eyewitness and wrote he heard about someone called Jesus. None of it passes anything historical that can be used to say Jesus was the son of god.
@casyatbat conti: historians don't know the people they're talking about personally so by that logic we never could have history, I'll give you an example Alexander the Great wasn't written down til 200 years after his death, but we know he existed, so were stories made up about him? Moses showed examples that God was talking to him, but you won't accept that so no point in trying to convince you or even continue your red herrings. Since we were talking about morals after all.
@FamousDave2186 Cont. Again the gospels of Luke, John, Mark and Matthew are anonymous and the Greek editors that wrote them were not at any of the events and they were written at least 70 years later including Josephus. Don't compare the history of Greeks like Alexander and Aristotle to the stories coming from Palestine. Moses? There are no eyewitnesses, it's all hearsay just like Joseph Smith of the Mormons meeting god or Pat Robertson saying god spoke to him.
@FamousDave2186 cont. I don't want to change your mind about your Faith. Believe what you want but you must have Faith because there is no real evidence.
What's wrong with just saying that. It's what George Bush Jr. said as he marched us into War in Iraq as others convinced him that god made him president.
My foundation? I'm Agnostic. I don't know if there are supernatural powers in a infinite Universe. Either way there is no material evidence so you must have Faith.
@casyatbat conti: Again those arguments prove my case I'm sorry you don't like them, but since you've not argue those points I pm I can only conclude you don't care. Really sad
Next I don't know what you're trying to imply with Bush and all that nor does that really have anything to do at all with what we were talking about. Can we please stick to the topic.
Last well I rest my case you have no foundation that's exactly what I was proving. I'm sorry but it takes alot more faith to accept...
@FamousDave2186 Cont., Back to Morals I chose Bush because his faith and morals and those convincing him that god told him to launch a crusade against Muslims led to kill over 115,000 Iraqis and thousands of our soldiers and countless missing arms and legs. His Christian Faith allowed him this carnage to a country who did not attack us.
Since I don't accept that there is any god as defined by man then all morals are made by man and society.
Of the 10 commandments the 1st 5 are about god, cont
@FamousDave2186, cont, well 5 is about honoring parents though the bible states killing disobedient children, 6, don't murder, 8, don't steal, 9, don't bear false witness, 7 & 10 don't commit false witness and covet your neighbor's wife, donkey,etc.
There is nothing in the meaningful part of the commandments that societies have not figured out on their own. But if it makes you feel good that an invisible god that no one's ever seen, came up with the morals, then fine. Either way it is societal.
@casyatbat conti: and even if Hitler was a christian so what. How does this disprove God? He was the one mostly quote mining and I showed him how the things he was saying weren't true, but his stubborness wouldn't let him say anything different other than the same thing. Now if you're saying I'm the one with just faith you must then have proof and evidence for why atheism is accurate and correct so please share with me why atheism is accurate and correct then.
@FamousDave2186, I recommend watching the debate between Craig & Ehrmann. On trying to prove atheism correct. I can't. You cannot prove a negative which I'm sure you know.
Morality is a sociological change. Like women not being able to vote or the way Blacks were treated through slavery and later the Jim Crow laws and so many other things that society tolerated.
I think Jesus existed but I believe he was a man as was Muhammad and other prophets in the Torah, Bible & Qu'ran.
@FamousDave2186, Here are some clips so you can understand your bible better.
Was the Bible Meant to be Taken Literally? - Guy Consolmagno
Jesuit Brother Guy Consolmagno, research astronomer & planetary scientist at the Vatican Observatory
watch?v=wUyiQufyiK0
Misquoting Jesus, Stanford Lecture, How Bible Got Tainted parts 1 thru 10 with Bart Ehrman, Professor or Religious Studies of the University of North Carolina
If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the
morality of the Atheist? Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.
Thomas Paine:
The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing and admits of no conclusion.
@MrHoolits conti: stats like that, if it is true but since you've got your information from wikipedia I tend to not agree with that. Your quotes prove nothing but mere opinions, what foundation? Like I said you have no foundation doesn't mean you can't try to be good but since I see no foundation Jefferson never did find an answer now did he? Second Thomas Paine was an athiest so I expect quotes like that from him. His statement proves nothing, its founded on nothing; rests on nothing; it...
@FamousDave2186, The point of Thomas Paine is, was immoral? Did he need an invisible god to be moral? The same with Deist Washington, Adams, Jefferson and Madison, the first 4 presidents who rejected the Christian God. As Deists they believed in "Nature's God".
Morality comes from society. It would be like me saying that if you did not have a fear in God you would go out and murder and steal. Society will not allow you to steal and murder regardless if you believe in a God or not.
@MrHoolits conti proceeds by no authorities; has no data; it can demonstrate nothing and admits of no conclusion. See I can say the same thing and at least prove there's actually nothing, since I've heard nothing on why Athiesm is accurate and correct. I'll let you get the last word in. unless you can actually argue my points and give me a foundation for your moral beliefs I might continue this, but until then you're just stating the exact debunk arguments.
@MrHoolits last check out the Moral argument on Reasonable Faith .o.r.g and you see why Morals are objective and why Theism has the basis for objective moral values and duties.
@FamousDave2186, It's insane and ignorant to say theism is the basis for moral values. I've said already that in all places on Earth there are values showing killing, stealing and lying are immoral and does not take a beliefs or FEAR of an invisible god to be moral as the bible tolerates slavery, murder and rape.
The most crime free nations in the world are the most Atheist and Agnostic. I also gave you stats from the Federal Bureau of Prisons so it is not opinion but fact.
@MrHoolits conti: I'm saying is that God is the foundation for Moral values and duties, again I ask if God doesn't exist how do you know what you're doing is right since you think that morals are both? How do you know that murder is subjective and not objective? Your statistic doesn't prove anything it just proves that people break the moral code and again we have one of the most populated nations in the world and since the majority of people believe in a creator that of course you're gonna have
@FamousDave2186, Knowing this one has to realize that stories written in the bible were written by man and not a God. God would not need 40 or so authors or 1600 years to write a book. God would not need The Council of Nicaea and later re-complied, edited and heavily rewritten by the Roman Catholics in 397 AD at the Council of Carthage. Men decided what would be in the bible and what would be excluded and what would be destroyed. Again, these are man's words not God's.
@MrHoolits conti: it. So now you're saying that morals are subjective, but what if society were to have been if the Nazi's have won WW2, according to your last statement murder would be morally right. However with God regradless of what societies say it would still be wrong even if everyone thinks its right. You keep flip flopping worse than a politician. I'm done with you and your ad homenems. Next time stick to a point and if you lose you lose flip flopping just makes it worse.
@FamousDave2186, Yes, if the Nazi's would have won, we would be a right Christian world as Hitler wanted a society where ALL people worshiped Jesus & considered any questioning of such to be heresy. Holocaust was a modern inquisition, killing all who did not accept Jesus.
More Jews were killed than any other,but MANY ARYAN pagans & atheists were murdered for their non-belief in Christ.
You are so confused. I don't flip flopped or offer ad hominems, like you with coffee and doctors.
@MrHoolits Oh yes the so called Hitler was a Christian thing, In all honesty, I find the anyone who believes Hitler to have been a Christian is living in the heights of self-deception. Sure, he occasionally claimed Christianity, but nothing in his life reflects a true belief in Jesus I have never seen anything that suggests that Hitler continued to attend church (church membership being something far different than being active in the church -- ask any pastor),
@FamousDave2186, Like the bible, you pick and choose what you want to believe. Hitler was a Christian and followed the teachings of Martin Luther. His writings, speeches and persona accounts show he was a Christian. One takes all the evidence and makes a conclusion.
Ask any Pastor. No, ask any Historian. Of course a Pastor will say Hitler wasn't a Christian.
You don't understand that despots kill all who oppose including priests, pastors, professors, his own followers and generals.
@FamousDave2186, cont: 1997, Federal Bureau of Prisons, 0.21% of inmates were atheists, yet Atheists/Agnostics represent 12% of the U.S. population.
During 10 years in Sing-Sing, those executed for murder were 65% Catholics, 26% Protestants, 6% Hebrew, 2% Pagan, and less than 1/3 of 1% non-religious.
We have morals and know right from wrong. We don't need to believe in a invisible god to do so and those that do commit more crimes.
Either way your beliefs are Faith based and not Fact based.
@MrHoolits conti: you never stated anything about those arguments I've stated did you even look at them. I doubt that you did. Why not look at those arguments and judge them for yourself.
@FamousDave2186, Morals are both subjective and objective. We know killing, stealing and lying are immoral and are objective and were around long before the 10 commandments.
Killing your children for being disobedient, killing gay people and killing people for working on the sabbath. is objective immoral and subjective moral according to the bible. I don't need to go to a website to start believing in invisible gods, devils, heaven and hell that can only be seen by dead people.
@MrHoolits conti: maybe you need to look at the cosmological arguments, the telological argument from finetuning, the moral argument, the octological argument, and the historal accounts of Jesus. Go to reasonablefaith.o.r.g to see those arguments.
The atheist lives with his eyes closed and tries convincing others that they are open. But who cares as none of it matters in the atheist world. Name calling, demeaning and mocking others who live with their eyes open is fun. Just do what you want, everything is up for grabs. Who says it isn't? Well you tell them I said it was and I'm an atheist and I'm right even when I'm wrong. The thing I won't do however is face what I believe headon. That responding to this rex guy will have no meaning....
But why do we care who agrees with us or not? Maybe we feel smarter or avenged somehow. Do these feeling have any meaning? Well maybe it's not how it makes us feel but it is our duty as atheists to set right all this wrong. Well who cares about that? What do we gain? We win, that's what we gain...........right? What does winning mean when the issues on both sides don't matter?
Why does science matter? Who cares how old the universe or world is. Why should we care to know? Well, let's see, meaning is found is society and advancing the species right? Advancing towards what? Extinction? Ok, ok, ok. We just have to accept what is and make the best of what we have, right? Well what do we have? A meaningless species trudging towards extinction. That's what we have. Now we are enlightened and can debate others and call them fools for not agreeing with us.
If life is meaningless as the atheist believes. Why do they bother themselves with Christians, Theists ect. Thinking themselves right in their own minds it really shouldn't matter. Why does it matter? Why are they "infuriated" ? Why debate an issue that ultimately doesn't matter? So they say the Christian is wrong, well if that's true then who cares. What they or the Christian believes is all bunk then. Not just the Christian but the atheist too. But no,...no see science matters right?
Topics: WINNING ARGUMENTS NOW ADDED For The Creationism-Evolutionism Debate (See Subchapter 10.2.2.), The Issue On The Criminal Liability Of Foretelling The END OF THE WORLD, Other Debated Issues, Terrorism, War, Law, Politics, Religion, Philosophy, Science, Others.
Websites: balanceddiet1.yolasite.com
See Figure 4, which is THE MEANING OF THE PYRAMID, at figure4etc.yolasite.com
See Announcements at announcements-balancedway.weebly.com
I like it that WLC confuses the age of the universe which is 13.7 billion years or so with the age of the earth which is 4.5 billion years old. So technically he's lying here.
What really is infuriating is that this douche Craig actually claims that his arguments are in line with mainstream science. They aren't. Craig keeps clinging to ideas that might have floated around in scientific circles decades ago, but have been abandoned based on new findings. He also misrepresents science when it helps his arguments.
It just blows me away how Craig so easily buys into his own BS despite his advanced acumen. One of the biggest premises of his arguments is his claim that the Christian god is intelligent. But if you consider the illogical notions, the contradictions, inconsistencies etc etc.(the list is vast and to big to post) of the Christian belief system, how this man can argue that his god is "intelligent" would be hilarious if it weren't so tragically, intellectually dishonest.
3:46 Best estimate (of the age of the world) is 13.7 billion years? I thought it was about 4.54 billion.... Important to differ between the universe and the world.
@OrionVulcan I agree that's an error from William Lane Craig, however, I wouldn't put more to it then a simple mis-communicate of the question :) Since his reply to the question was 13.7, it clearly shows that he agrees with the age of the universe and as such the age of the world aswell, being 4.5 billion years old :) Just saying :)
@namasteywhat "well, you're a theist, so that's a few point in your favour in term of critical thinking.."
You really need to re-read my post. Your reply is not at all consistent with what I said. First of all, I'm not a theist I'm an "atheist." And my reference to Craig was not at all derisive but my reference to Christianity definitely was. Oh I'm definitely anti WLC. I believe he is only out to peddle his belief system not reveal truth.
So does this mean I lose my critical thinking points?
Despite my atheism, I am now convinced that a supernatural power is directly involved in our existence. So for me, the question should no longer be whether god exists but, rather, what evidence is there linking Christianity to this or any supernatural power. So far, the evidence proving Christianity's ties to the supernatural have been laughably weak. I don't care if he has 10 PhDs, Dr. Craig will never have more insight into the supernatural than I or anyone else.
@tjobv To clarify,the term "god" was generically implied and by no means did I mean to say I believe in a god. I should have phrased that differently, my error. And one can believe in the supernatural and still be atheist. Gods are human definitions of the supernatural with applied designations, histories etc; and gods are also worshiped. I claim no designation, definition, or history for this supernatural force/power and sure as heck would never bow down to it, either. Therefore, I am atheist.
So god fine tuned the universe so there will always be evil and suffering of innocent people. Otherwise why bother putting us through all this pain and suffering if we're going to evolve into totally moral society at some point in the future? Face it christians, your god deliberately created evil and he wants evil to stay around forever. If there is more evil than good in the world, then by definition god is more evil than good, because he fine tuned it this way.
@sonicBlue00 You misunderstand free will and what love is. Love is a choice. A God of love had to give his creation a choice. Creation chose to disobey.
You misunderstand that god brought this free will into existence, thus making him responsible for it. You still can't dodge the fact that if everything is "fine tuned" by god as Craig puts it, then he is responsible for everything that happens in the universe. And if there is more evil than good in the universe, then god fine tuned a predominantly evil universe. Conclusion: god created evil, thus making him inherently evil himself.
Or put it this way: if you created a new form of life, and deliberately instilled them with evil, and these creatures you created tortured each other horribly and suffered horribly, wouldn't you feel bad for doing that? I would. The idea of this perfect loving god having created all this incompetent chaos that we see around us is just childish.
@sonicBlue00 where exactly do you see chaos?? there is no chaos in the universe, it is very well tuned. if you mean chaos on our planet and there definately are many things on our planet that are wrong, why blame god(if there is one course)? in other words god is not respnsible for what we do, but we are responsible to god .
["in other words god is not respnsible for what we do"]
So this god creates us and the whole universe, but he's not responsible for it...that's like saying you're not responsible for anything your child does.
?? hu? Morals? What about them?, complex design, yes, designer not so.. heard of Darwin? Evolution? Secondly proof is for maths, evidence is the word you are looking for, and no, no need for evidence that something does NOT exist, on the contrary you must provide EVIDENCE that it DOES. What about unicorns, elves, fairies, and mermaids? do I need to provide evidence those don't exist?? I don't think so; all you people need to understand is that THIS IS THE SAME CASE. Third--- continues...
People that know nothing about cosmology should not be talking cosmology. I wouldn't let a butcher perform an open heart surgery, so what makes you think cosmology is an open field for anyone to come in an drop his opinion on? I'll try to make this short; Big bang,- yes so far it has even been verified by evidence, not an explosion but an inflation of TIME and SPACE, where SPACE inflates faster than T, and where at the point of the singularity TIME likely SEACES TO EXIST..
Well, I've argued agaisnt this piece of work called W.L. Craig Many times... just read the threads. But well typically teists do the famous "part for the whole" Falacy every time they can so why should I care?.
@DrErkencho Hahaha wheres your proof God doesn't exist? ___ Is it merely because you don't believe in the possibility of the supernatural, ...that maybe everything that exists is matter.. that non-material substances do not exist?.. or that you think the Universe is eternal... which Science has shown to not be the case, maybe you think we are just the product of a galactic mess.. ever tried looking at DNA the complexities & the intelligent design behind it all.. what about morals? etc.
To TecnamTwin and all you other believers, I have a question for you. Look at Tecnam's rant about God and why he is so amazing, and skip to the part where he says "God does not reveal himself to His creatures because for one, our sin disgusts Him." Does that sound like a god you want to believe in? One that created you, created your sin, so he can...be disgusted by it?
@AweAttack And if you disagree that God did not make sin, then you must agree that god made free thought and free will. If sin is the sacrifice of free will, then God fucked himself because I used my free will to realize that I don't give a shit if there is a god. So one of you Christians explain to me if, in Craig's opinion, our only reason to be here is to realize there is a god, and become one with him, why would god create me?
Mh, I supposed you know what you are talking about right?. So Evolution cannot produce, say ... color?... Color is intangible. What about the nervous system, I bet you take some morfine and you won't feel a thing... so is that part of your INTANGIBLE mubo jumbo? What about taking, some of these;
Dopamine, D-Cyclocerine, Adrenaline, Serotonin, Histamin, and the list goes on and on. As for conscience it is taught as reflexive thinking, so thoughts on thoughts, that's all there is.
God is real. Your not believing in Him does not make Him go away, or make Him any less powerful. I know He is real because of the existence of information.
AweAttack, watch your mouth! Little kids might be reading.
Anyway, God does not reveal himself to His creatures because for one, our sin disgusts Him. For two, it would kill us to look upon a being powerful enough to create the universe out of nothing; and for three, He said He wouldn't do it until The End of the World.
@TecnamTwin I am god. I will not reveal myself untill the end of the wolrd, but you have to believe I exist. You have to believe I am loving, caring compassionate even when the facts on earth totally contradict such a notion. What silly BULLSHIT. !!
@TecnamTwin. First off, if there are children going onto youtube to watch debates on religion, then they are obviously mature enough to not be offended by cursing, you idiot. Second, I love that you send me a private message and then pick your favorite part from it and put it on this video lmfao, that's cute. thirdly, by this comment that I'm responding to, I absolutely disagree. I stopped believing in a god, and he never came back and I'm 100% happy and living a full life, so fuck you.
@TecnamTwin And your reason for "knowing" that there is a god is because of "the existence of information"? What the fuck does that mean? If you are even going to attempt to explain how you come to hold knowledge that is no universally accepted as truth, at least be more specific. Just to play along, your broad pathetic reasoning can be denied easily; Just because information exists, doesn't mean its true information. How arrogant of you to think you "know" something that is not true. haha
CHRISTIANS, NO, SPIRITUAL PEOPLE IN GENERAL ARE NO MORE THAN SCARED, SAD PEOPLE WASTING THEIR DEEPEST EMOTIONS ON SOMETHING THAT THEY TOLD WOULD LISTEN, INSTEAD OF SPENDING PRECIOUS TIME FINDING PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO QUESTIONABLE EXISTENCE TO CONFIDE IN! I SAY THIS IN PURE AND DEEP COMPASSION BECAUSE I HATE TO SEE PEOPLE LIVING THEIR LIVES RESTRICTED BY RULES THEY DID NOT CREATE. PLEASE,FOR HUMANITIES SAKE, RECONSIDER GOD AND SUPERNATURAL TOPICS!!!!!!!!!!
@AweAttack well not sure if g ay is a sin but i think it is , truth is we all are sinners, and we must stop ourselves from being gay, or doing any other sins, they cant help being gay just like i cant help looking at girls with lust, but we must try,
@communismkills1. I am only attacking the Christian god, not anything on atheism or the beginning of the fucking universe. I am not atheist. If I had to lump myself into a category which I prefer not to I guess it would be a secular humanist. I simply don't give a shit if there is a god. I've never felt a god presence in my life and I am perfectly happy without thinking there is one. I do feel though that some people who believe in a god are worse off, therefore I am trying to help them.
@communismkills1 with you, i feel you are worse off. To feel you have to work on looking at girls with lust just seems ridiculous. do what you fucking want to unless it affects someone else negatively. God is nothing more than humans that wanted to control people by putting fear in their children. Sadly, I know you won't be turned against god because I'm sure you were raised Christian. So please stop talking to me, you are not worth another minute of my time.
WLC is a broken record. Always says same thing, yr. in yr. out.
12ut5 3 weeks ago
William Lane Craig just rehashes St. Aquinas' tired arguments and mostly only debates people who are younger and philosophically less literate than him.
It was a different story when he debated Christopher hitches,and SAM Harris he didn't sound so smart with is tiresome cosmological/teleological arguments when he went against atheist of some stature, he is just an other religious faker like all the rest .
And what a joke that he is on this crappy show (Michael coren hahaha what a joke)
adlerbr12 1 month ago
@adlerbr12 He spanked Hitchens to an embarrassing degree. I haven't seen him debate Harris.
Vimesisdaman 3 weeks ago
@Vimesisdaman
Is that a joke? He debated Hitchens for 2 hours and by the end WLC still didn't seem to be able to grasp what atheism even meant. He defends hideous acts in the Bible including massacres in the name of god, he is also a very poor philosopher. All he has is that he is a good and confident speaker.
pezzamange 2 weeks ago
I thought the age of the earth was 4.54 byo.
GoReRoTTedDeAtH 2 months ago
@GoReRoTTedDeAtH
The word "world" is also synonymous with the Universe, especially in philosophical discussions. That Craig used this term shouldn't be that surprising since he is after all a philosopher.
Christianjr4 2 months ago
Awesome playlist dude. William Lane Craig is awesome
Jehstfan 2 months ago in playlist More videos from Christianjr4
@neoverse "Christians who actually study it?" Are you seriously going to defend the pseudo-scientific views of the fundamentalist young earth creationists?
FideiDefensor7 3 months ago
This is one think I don't like about Craig, he believes the BB BS. He needs to stick to his theology and leave the age stuff to the Christians who actually study it.
neoverse 3 months ago
@neoverse sorry, I meant philosophy not theology.
neoverse 3 months ago
this little guy got slaughterd by Dr Craig!! no competion..
erubians1 4 months ago
Atheism= Extreme Ignorance!!!!!!!
WSSIIWarlordII 4 months ago
@WSSIIWarlordII
Generalisations are extreme ignorance.
COEXISTential 4 months ago
Craig pretends he knows what in the mind of a power like a god that created a Universe with billions of galaxies.
Anyone could make up anything when one does not have supply proof or evidence.
MrHoolits 4 months ago
@MrHoolits Lame...
v33punk 4 months ago
@v33punk, I agree William Lane Craig is quite lame.
There is no proof of any god. If there was, man would no longer need faith and it would be a fact.
MrHoolits 4 months ago
@v33punk, you wrote me "Ha! You are such a cheapskate. Attaboy! You twisted the meaning of one word. Figures tho..That's what naturalists typically do, twist things to fit their worldview.
Now, if there is a power like a god or gods that created a Universe of and estimated 400 billion galaxies and 300,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets, you nor Lane or any human would not know what that power thinks or wants.
A Omnipotent, Omnipresence, Omniscience god would not be constrained by the bible.
MrHoolits 4 months ago
What if God told us? We don't believe that the entirety of God exists in the Bible but He tells us what we need to know at this time.
PistisIasis 4 months ago
@PistisIasis, How does a god tell you this and why isn't that god helping those being butchered, raped, starved, tortured and all the terrible things that are being done to our fellow man while making Pat Robertson a billionaire off the backs with those with meager earnings.
Why is that god letting children be born with terrible diseases and living a short life in misery.
If there is a power like a god that created 400 billion galaxies intellectually we would be like single cell organism.
MrHoolits 4 months ago
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ssjSephirothhiei 3 months ago
@MrHoolits (part 1) The question here is: Is God responsible for our sins? Here we are confronted with the mystery of human freedom. Human freedom is an innate good, and God gave it to us so that we could use it to love him and each other. If God interfered in our freedom, though, then we would lose the capacity to love, because if love is not given freely, it's not love. We have to recognize that God loves us so much, he will respect a person's wish to go to Hell if they choose greed over him.
ssjSephirothhiei 3 months ago
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MrHoolits 3 months ago
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ssjSephirothhiei 3 months ago
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ssjSephirothhiei 3 months ago
@MrHoolits (part 2) Don't misunderstand, though. God invites us to Heaven, and he wants us to do good. If we didn't have freedom, then all the good things we do would mean NOTHING, though. Freedom is what allows us to grow in holiness and love, and it is our ticket to heaven! Freedom is good news, and that's why we have to try and help others understand that although God allows evil, that he has a plan for us all, and it WILL lead us to happiness. God doesn't commit evil. We do.
ssjSephirothhiei 3 months ago
@ssjSephirothhiei, If there is a power like gods, no human could possibly know what that power thinks or wants and would never be tied to ancient texts.
The Christian god is zealous, murderous and heartless. That is the god that murdered all land life by drowning including children, pregnant women and the purest of us all. That is not what I called love but would call a hateful vengeful god.
There is no proof of an invisible god, heaven, hell angels or devils and you must be dead to see them.
MrHoolits 3 months ago
@MrHoolits First paragraph how do you know that to be true? If no human could possibly know what that power thinks or wants how can you make such a claim "He would never be tied to ancient texts"? "Purest of us all." Funny I never met a single one. I don't think mother Teresa would even think she was. I got to say that's a pretty big claim on your next paragraph before I get into that I would need to know do you think morals are objective or subjective?
Last...
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, Pat Robertson, Jerry Farwell other religions leaders, Televangelists and Politicians are always claiming god told them to do this or that.
In reality you are not following a god but are following what those that wrote your religious texts telling what a god thinks or wants.
The god of the bible is not moral as he murdered all land life by drowning including pregnant women, babies, children, etc. when that god could have easily disposed of the wicked. That is a jealous tyrant.
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@MrHoolits I'm not defending them, and you're avoiding my points. You claim no human could possibly know what that power thinks or wants but then how can you make such a claim that He would never be tied to ancient texts if you have no idea what He thinks or wants. Who are you to make such a claim? Next he did dispose of the wicked from the flood Noah and his family were the only ones who served God, and again you avoid my point I ask if morals are objective or subjective what are they? Last..
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, Again, no human could no what an omniscient and omnipotent power thinks or wants.
Anyone claiming they do are insane or a liar. People can pretend they are like those pretending they are speaking in tongues.
Who am I to make such a claim. Some one who lives in 2011 and realizes all religions are man made and one is not better than the other since they are all man made.
This is why religion is called Faith because if it were true it would be Fact & we would no longer need Faith.
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@MrHoolits let's summize your last statement, 1st paragraph: no proof, 2nd ad homenim, 3rd no proof but very egotistick I might add, 4th one, I'll give you an example. Let's say you need surgury and you're studing the doctor, you find out that he is very good in this field but you'll still have faith that everything will go alright with the surgury and if something does go wrong that he can correct the mishap. So that's how this works here, for alot of people it is personal I didn't know...
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, You think needing proof is egotistic? I give you relevant examples, yet you accuse me ad hominem then reply with a doctor. It's silly and there is only one real point.
You don't need proof of any god and rely on faith by superstitious people who wrote anonymous Hebrew texts 3000 years ago.
I am not an Atheist. I'm Agnostic and don't accept any man made god but don't discount the possibility of supernatural powers in the Universe but not anything omniscient or omnipotent.
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@MrHoolits first off no Your statement saying you live in 2011 which you seem to imply makes you smart that's egotistic? So in others word by that statement your an atheist because you don't believe in God simple as that. I think you need to look up some of the words you use another point is when you said morals are both subjective and objective. Do you even know what those words mean. Objective means independent of human opinion, example the laws of nature hold whether we acknowledge them or ..
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, I've told you already that I am not an Atheist but Agnostic. I don't think you're comprehending what I am writing. I give you examples like killing, stealing and lying and you reply with how coffee tastes. I address the immorality of the bible which condones killing disobedient children, homosexuals and working on the sabbath. And yes, The bible condones killing, society does not at least the good ones as Islam will kill homosexuals and others for apostasy.
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@MrHoolits What I did which you missed the point was to show you that morals can't be both objective and subjective they're either one or the other and you've given me no reason to think otherwise. I noticed you completely ignored that one. You claim there's no evidence for God but you don't look at the arguments I stated why is that, that my friend is the true description of ignorance. Yeah you told me but your explaintion says something different, an agnostic is someone who says they don't..
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186. You compared subjective objective morals to coffee while I tried to use in relation to morals like killing, stealing and lying.
Ignored the evidence for god? There is no evidence for all the 10s of 1000s of gods that is why you must have Faith. If there was evidence then there would be no Atheists, Agnostics and all the people of all religions would follow 1 god.
I was once Christian, turned Atheist and Agnostic because I cannot explain an estimated 500 billion galaxies. Cont.
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@MrHoolits yeah you ignored the evidence I've yet to hear you talk about any of those arguments I've stated eariler and told you to look up and yes even with evidence people will still deny something. You more than likely think evoultion is fact well you claim there's evidence for that but yet people (such as me) think its not fact at all, you get what I'm saying on that one. Second you claim I don't know what agnosticism means but yet I don't hear any rebuttle to that one. What Facts? I...
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@MrHoolits conti: not. Subjective means dependent on human opinion, example would be matters of taste, you might like coffee but I don't. Now with that said how can they be both according to your worldview. If you said that what I'm doing is immoral which you probably do think, all I have to say is yeah? Who says? You. Who died and made you king? Man cannot make objective moral codes only quackes can do that. You are right to say that we know killing was wrong before the 10 commandments but...
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@MrHoolits again who says. Under whatever you want to call it there's no way to justifiy why morals are objective you have to admit they're subjective but if they're subjective you really have no right to claim that something is immoral now do you? It seems there's no bases for your argument right there. Last truthfully I was trying to change your mind I asked you to look at the arguments I gave you from that website it seems you have no desire to do so, that's your decesion no mine you do want
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
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@FamousDave2186, I've already told you that I am not trying to change your mind and you can believe in invisible gods, heaven, hell, angels and devils that can only be seen by dead people. I don't care.
But trying to change a rational person to accept ancient Bronze Age fables as true boggles the mind. It would be like someone trying to convince to become a Hindu, or a Muslim or Scientologist. You would reject then or could they convince that those are those are the true beliefs of gods.
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@MrHoolits conti: those arguments I've stated until I was 25 but with these arguments it has brought reason and logic, I've seen none with athiesm in fact I've gotten some from you guys such as there is no evidence because you can't prove a negative, so why believe it? You just prove on the contrary it true, and if you can't you reject it. So I'll ask knowing full well what the answer will be what proof and evidence do you have that atheism is accurate and correct?
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, I am not trying to change your mind nor could change your mind in believing in invisible god, heaven, hell, angels and devils that can only be seen by the dead.
John Adams said it best in a letter to Thomas Jefferson:
Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents.
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@MrHoolits conti: you want to do. At least I've looked at the evidence on both sides and come to the conclussion that Christian Theism is accurate and correct. Can you truthfully say you've done the same?
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, Now there is no evidence of any of 1000s of gods. This is the truth. This is why you must have faith. William is not a scientist but a philosopher.
The Greeks and all societies have their moral code. You will find this true anywhere in the world regarding rape, murder, theft,etc.
As an Agnostic and the Atheist countries like Sweden, Norway, etc have far less crime then the U.S. which is the most religious of the western countries yet leads the world in murders & incarceration.
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@MrHoolits conti: know if God exist or not, you on the other hand are saying He doesn't which makes you an athiest whether you admit that or not I could care less. Last those countries have less population than the United States you may want to check your facts before you state something. I use to study polictics and heard this exact argument from socialists, don't use strawman arguments like that again.
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, cont: But don't accept any man made religions as proof of any god. ou don't know what agnosticism means. I use facts. You use strawman arguments and opinions as facts.
Wikipedia
The United States' incarceration rate is the highest in the world, at 737 persons imprisoned per 100,000 and more than 1 in 100 adults is now confined in an American jail or prison. and has 4% of the world's population and 25% of the world's incarcerated population.
Cont:
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@MrHoolits conti: never heard any reason to think according to your worldview why morals are objective and subjective as you claim and I proved to you why they can't be both so are you now saying they're objective? If they are according to your worldview how do you know? What's the basis for that claim? And last Wikipedia, really? You do know that anyone can edit stuff in there and the people who make the articals and have you ever heard of 70% of people don't believe in statistics? Next like...
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@MrHoolits conti: I stated eariler we have one of the most population in the world and since most of the majority believes in a creator of course you're gonna get numbers such as that, I never claimed I was any better than you what I have claimed is under your worldview you have no basis for your moral landscape as right as to state that morals are objective and not subjective. But what grounds? God is the basis for objective moral values and duties.
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186,Again there is no proof of any god. If there was then there would not 10s of 1000s of religions and 30,000 different Christian denominations & no Atheists or Agnostics.
Your beliefs are based on Bronze Age stories past down by superstitious people thru word of mouth. So your beliefs are man made and not god's word. Or does god only care about those people in ancient Palestine and Israel showing himself no other place on Earth.
This is why all religions are based on Faith not fact
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@MrHoolits You keep saying the same thing like a broken record player but I don't hear any reason why to think that. I've heard nothing on the arguments I've stated you keep saying there's no proof but yet you don't check out the arguments. Since you have no desire to look at them I guess you would be considered the unreasonable one here. Second, again you haven't show me where's your basis for morarlitiy, if you're claiming common sense why is it then that some people don't have that? What...
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, I'll make it simple. There is an estimated 500 billion galaxies in the The observable universe of 70 billion light years & it takes only 8 minutes for light to reach Earth from the Sun.
Digest that for a minute.
Genesis Chapter 1 describes God creating a flat Earth with a dome and water above and below the dome. Earth was fixed and the Sun rotated around the Earth. This is what you believe God thinks & did if you take the bible literally or reinterpret using 2011 sensibilities.
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@MrHoolits No if you read the Bible it doesn't say a flat earth, in fact science at first said the earth was flat now granted you will never admit that and again never said the sun rotates around the earth again maybe if you read the bible instead of just assuming things you'd had learn that. Your next comment is again assuming facts not in evidence ad homenims galore on that one. And last you missed the point I never said you or thomas paine was immoral I'm saying where is your foundation for..
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, Genesis Chapter 1 states the Earth is flat with a dome and water above and below the dome.
Again, if there is a god, you don't know nor does any man know what that god thinks or wants. The ancient anonymous Hebrew texts and the Gospels were written by man, not god.
Morals is based on society which is why the Church was silent on slavery but burned witches.
Societies throughout the world found murder, stealing and lying immoral without the use of the bible.
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@MrHoolits conti: or anything that suggests Hitler made himself accountable to a Pastor or Priest in anyway. In fact, his execution of Christian pastors, like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, should be enough to convince anyone with half a brain that he was not a Christian. I'm not the one who's confused you don't even know what flip flop and ad honinems even are, and your point clearly shows that, what I did was showed examples that you should be able to understand because I feel like I'm arguing with a
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@MrHoolits conti: child and not a 49 year old. You're refuseal to look at the arguments I've stated clearly shows you could careless if I'm right otherwise you'd argue those points but again you don't. Next you can show me all the clips you want I've studied what it says. The Bible both has literal and metaphor statements, to prove the Bible doesn't say the earth is flat it says in Isaiah 40:20 He that sittih (metaphor just means He rules) on the CIRCLE OF THE EARTH. You keep claiming one thing
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, cont, Yes, I gave a short clip on Genesis Chapter 1 and also a lecture by Professor of Religious Studies Bart Ehrman a world authority on the gospels.
Those that wrote the bible had no idea that the Earth was a sphere and when it was pointed out by Copernicus and later Galileo who was arrested for heresy. You can't put 21st century sensibilities into the minds that wrote the anonymous texts 2,000 years ago or so.
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@MrHoolits conti: than another. Make up your mind just choose one morals objective or subjective? I'm not gonna argue for the sake of arguing it shows you could careless about the truth. This will be my last post I promise you that, So go ahead say what you want help build that false confindence of you "winning" to make you feel good. We'll let the people who do come on this to decided who's right and wrong.
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, cont, I speak the truth and the truth is that all written texts were written by man and not god. No human could possibly know what a god would think or want though many claim they do,
Winning making me feel good? No, that's not my motivation. You will never stop believing in a invisible god that can only be seen by the dead. I just don't like people claiming they know what a god thinks or wants because that is a lie.
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186,cont, Either way, morals are set by society though the church killed for heresy, apostasy, burning of witches tolerated slavery,all subjective morals by man, not god.
Or as Thomas Jefferson said:
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What have been the effects of coercion? To make on half of the fools and the other half hypocrites.
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186 and @MrHoolits, good discussion.
Dave, why not just say you have Faith. That is what the Vatican and their doctrine that allows for the Big Bang and Evolution and take the bible literally not figuratively.
Hoolits, you will never convince someone so religious to ever question his beliefs. His faith won't allow him to look past the bible. Anyone quoting scriptures will always take the bible over evidence or lack of evidence.
Hitler was a Catholic and Christian by most accounts.
casyatbat 2 months ago
@casyatbat I told him about the evidence from the cosmological arguments, the telological argument from finetuning, the moral argument, the octological argument, and the historal accounts of Jesus. No where will you find him arguing any of those points I don't think he even cared to look at them. Second I asked him if morals are objective or subjective he first says both, then he flips to subjective then says some are objective I asked him what was the foundation never got an answer on that one.
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, I'm Agnostic so don't if gods exist or not. I will say that for anyone believing in a god do so due to faith as I wrote earlier. The Vatican accepts Evolution and the Church of England apologized to Darwin.
This is silly. Atheists don't believe in God because there is no evidence. Agnostics don't know if gods exist or not and religious people have faith that god exists in lieu of evidence.
I'm familiar with Bart Ehrman and is very good. I watched him debate William Craig.
casyatbat 2 months ago
@casyatbat I think I've seen that one and yes you can prove a negative just prove on the contrary is true. If athiesm can't prove itself than it should be rejected hands down, no proof,no evidence I think that takes alot of faith to believe since it has no proof. Next ok you think morality is subjective at least you're honest with your worldview, but I must ask if morals are subjective how can we tell what exactly is right or wrong? what if socitity decides that killing is ok? You see I know...
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@casyatbat conti: that morals are objective because if they weren't one we'd have no right to say what is wrong and what is right. The moral argument from Dr William Lane Craig clearly shows this one with his debate with Sam Harris. I would also ask you to go to his website and check out the arguments that I gave you eariler. You can claim there's no evidence but that doesn't make it right. Look at those arguments for yourself with an open mind and an open heart I think you'll see that the...
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, Atheists are atheist because there is no proof of god. If there was proof, there would be no atheists. Lane Craig is a philosopher not a scientist. He can philosophy describe god as does anyone describing their respective deity.
I've seen the Lane Craig debate with Sam Harris is also a philosopher but has a PhD in neuroscience and if you are religious then Craig reinforced believers same as Harris.
The Ehrmann vs Craig debates were much better in my opinion.
casyatbat 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186. Morals are set but society whether they are right or wrong. Your parents should be the ones who instill morality. Children of the Mafia are religious and kill and steal like their fathers as it is morality acceptable. Televangelists living the good life on the backs of gullible followers, promising miracles, delivering none.
One can argue all day about the existence of any god but it will always be a philosophical discussion because there is no material proof.
casyatbat 2 months ago
@casyatbat You keep claiming there's no proof but yet I don't hear anything against the arguments I've stated, I'll send you a pm . So if morals are subjective how can you clearly say what is right or wrong? We could never have said the nazi's were wrong in what they did if morals are subjective. So I would even think you'd agree that some things are wrong so let's say someone steals from you and then says well that's how I was taught would you then claim that its ok? No. You would state...
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, If you wish to see a fair debate on Jesus then watch on Youtube
Did Jesus Rise From The Dead -Bart Ehrman Vs William Lane Craig
watch?v=FhT4IENSwac
Watch a Historian debate a Philosopher and then make your own opinions. It won't change your mind but will at educate on the actual gospels.
casyatbat 2 months ago
@casyatbat conti: wrong. So objective moral values do exist and the argument I'll send to you will prove that futher. And last you know what I say to those people who do what you've stated they are morally wrong because objective moral values do exist and they are stealing and cheating off of people but if morals are subjective I really couldn't say that, if socitey thinks its ok. I thank God that's wrong.
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, I was brought up Catholic, believed in god, said prayers before bed and dinner and attended Catechism taught by nuns until I stop going in Jr. High School. I am now rational my mind is free and no longer cling to ancient superstitions.
There was no point on sending me all those arguments as again there is no proof of any god and if there was, there would be 1 god, 1 religion and no Atheists or Agnostics.
casyatbat 2 months ago
@casyatbat Well you've just admitted it takes way more faith to be an athiest and agnostic. You don't even care to look at them so whos got the rational mind? You keep claiming that morals come from society well who says? Just you stating that doesn't make it true. I've seen that debate and if my memory serves me the people agreed with Craig not Ehrman, now you can say that the majority of people were christians but if athiest don't care to show up and watch these debates it really show they're
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, No, I said if there was proof of a god there would be no Atheists, Agnostics and all people would follow 1 god. I'm talking about evidence and you talk about faith.
You keep dancing around reinterpreting what I write and basically making things up. I did not say anything about who who agreed with Ehrman or Craig. I long ago stopped believing that Jesus walked on water, turned water into wine, and all the miracles that Jefferson removed from his bible.
casyatbat 2 months ago
@casyatbat What I've stated is proof I'm sorry but even with evidence people still don't accept things because they don't want to believe which is exactly what you're doing. Jefferson was wrong to do that. Next I'm not proselytizing (not even sure that's a word). If man came up with morals what makes them right then since man is falliable. Again the statement who says falls perfectly for this for no man can come up with a perfect society. Next you are right they're are evil people but if morals
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@casyatbat conti: those arguments with an open mind and an open heart. If you say you're rational you'd at least look at them once.
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, cont, Meanwhile it costs 1 million dollars per soldier for support, is fucked.
There will always be evil people, despots, murderers, rapists, thieves, grifters like televangelist and regular conmen but not because of some invisible Satan influencing their actions.
They say Hitler killed millions, true. But those doing the killing were Catholics,Protestants, Lutherans and people of Faith because they were doing was god's work.
Yes morality is set by society and who runs it.
casyatbat 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, If you think that morality is based on a god or a religion or ancient books, fine. It doesn't make it true but does in your mind.
Morals come from society and the Church now follows luckily but slowly when they use to lead and killed and imprisoned many for apostasy, heresy, burned witches and all the evil shit that comes out of a person's self righteous sick perception of morals and will harm those that don't agree at least publicly.
I'll keep my mind free of superstitions.
casyatbat 2 months ago
@casyatbat conti: character now doesn't it. Now you claimed earlier that morals are subjective but then you said the evil things people have done. How can you say that if morals are subjective? Again who says they're wrong if morals are subjective, what if society were to say that's ok then? You see I don't care what society says you are right to say that's evil but under your worldview you can't no matter how awful something may seem. Your worldview is madness my friend I'd ask you to read...
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, Cont. You are now proselytizing like Jehovah Witness going door to door. Since I don't accept any god invented by man and all religious texts were written by man then, all morals were developed by man.
See you'll never accept the fact that I am rational. This irrational view of evil like dipshit Bush who lied us in to War in Iraq, killing 1000s of soldiers (I'm a Navy Veteran) and killed 100,000s in Iraq because 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq' is fucked.
casyatbat 2 months ago
@casyatbat are subjective whos to say whatever someone is doing is evil you cannot. Since morals are just subjective its just someone's opinion. No those people were not doing God's work at all they were doing what was in they're evil hearts. and again if morals are subjective you really have no right to say that's evil, that would be an objective claim. I'm sorry my friend but I'll never accept your worldview. You have no foundation for your claims.
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, Just stop with the subjective/objective and deal with evidence.
1. All religious texts were written by man.
2. The stories were past down thru story telling and each subsequent story changed.
3. This means your morals were shaped by those ancient men who wrote the religious texts and not a god.
4. None of the Greek editors who wrote the gospels knew Jesus or any of the characters in the bible.
5. Abraham, Moses, Noah, etc. were alone when a god (allegedly) talked to them.
casyatbat 2 months ago
@casyatbat I am dealing with evidence maybe if you could argue my points I'd stop. your second point is a little inaccurate if you look at the actual dead sea scrolls which you can by the way you see thats inaccurate what you just stated, the historal accounts of Jesus not only talks about the greek editors but also Josephus who was Jewish by the way and is considered a first century historian, also as well as Luke with his impressive writing skills shows both that he can write and also most...
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, Again, if there was evidence of what you perceive as a god and those of other religions then you would no longer need faith. There is no evidence that a god got Mary pregnant and that was the son of god. It all takes faith. Josephus wrote about a lot of events but wasn't an t eyewitness and wrote he heard about someone called Jesus. None of it passes anything historical that can be used to say Jesus was the son of god.
casyatbat 2 months ago
@casyatbat conti: historians don't know the people they're talking about personally so by that logic we never could have history, I'll give you an example Alexander the Great wasn't written down til 200 years after his death, but we know he existed, so were stories made up about him? Moses showed examples that God was talking to him, but you won't accept that so no point in trying to convince you or even continue your red herrings. Since we were talking about morals after all.
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186 Cont. Again the gospels of Luke, John, Mark and Matthew are anonymous and the Greek editors that wrote them were not at any of the events and they were written at least 70 years later including Josephus. Don't compare the history of Greeks like Alexander and Aristotle to the stories coming from Palestine. Moses? There are no eyewitnesses, it's all hearsay just like Joseph Smith of the Mormons meeting god or Pat Robertson saying god spoke to him.
casyatbat 2 months ago
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@casyatbat conti: your worldview. Goodbye my friend you can get the last word in if you want.
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186 cont. I don't want to change your mind about your Faith. Believe what you want but you must have Faith because there is no real evidence.
What's wrong with just saying that. It's what George Bush Jr. said as he marched us into War in Iraq as others convinced him that god made him president.
My foundation? I'm Agnostic. I don't know if there are supernatural powers in a infinite Universe. Either way there is no material evidence so you must have Faith.
Jefferson was correct.
casyatbat 2 months ago
@casyatbat conti: Again those arguments prove my case I'm sorry you don't like them, but since you've not argue those points I pm I can only conclude you don't care. Really sad
Next I don't know what you're trying to imply with Bush and all that nor does that really have anything to do at all with what we were talking about. Can we please stick to the topic.
Last well I rest my case you have no foundation that's exactly what I was proving. I'm sorry but it takes alot more faith to accept...
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186 Cont., Back to Morals I chose Bush because his faith and morals and those convincing him that god told him to launch a crusade against Muslims led to kill over 115,000 Iraqis and thousands of our soldiers and countless missing arms and legs. His Christian Faith allowed him this carnage to a country who did not attack us.
Since I don't accept that there is any god as defined by man then all morals are made by man and society.
Of the 10 commandments the 1st 5 are about god, cont
casyatbat 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, cont, well 5 is about honoring parents though the bible states killing disobedient children, 6, don't murder, 8, don't steal, 9, don't bear false witness, 7 & 10 don't commit false witness and covet your neighbor's wife, donkey,etc.
There is nothing in the meaningful part of the commandments that societies have not figured out on their own. But if it makes you feel good that an invisible god that no one's ever seen, came up with the morals, then fine. Either way it is societal.
casyatbat 2 months ago
@casyatbat conti: theism as well as Christian theism is accurate and correct.
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@casyatbat conti: and even if Hitler was a christian so what. How does this disprove God? He was the one mostly quote mining and I showed him how the things he was saying weren't true, but his stubborness wouldn't let him say anything different other than the same thing. Now if you're saying I'm the one with just faith you must then have proof and evidence for why atheism is accurate and correct so please share with me why atheism is accurate and correct then.
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, I recommend watching the debate between Craig & Ehrmann. On trying to prove atheism correct. I can't. You cannot prove a negative which I'm sure you know.
Morality is a sociological change. Like women not being able to vote or the way Blacks were treated through slavery and later the Jim Crow laws and so many other things that society tolerated.
I think Jesus existed but I believe he was a man as was Muhammad and other prophets in the Torah, Bible & Qu'ran.
casyatbat 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, Here are some clips so you can understand your bible better.
Was the Bible Meant to be Taken Literally? - Guy Consolmagno
Jesuit Brother Guy Consolmagno, research astronomer & planetary scientist at the Vatican Observatory
watch?v=wUyiQufyiK0
Misquoting Jesus, Stanford Lecture, How Bible Got Tainted parts 1 thru 10 with Bart Ehrman, Professor or Religious Studies of the University of North Carolina
starting with
watch?v=7cK3Ry_icJo
Again the bible was written by men, not god.
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, Thomas Jefferson
If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the
morality of the Atheist? Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.
Thomas Paine:
The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing and admits of no conclusion.
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@MrHoolits conti: stats like that, if it is true but since you've got your information from wikipedia I tend to not agree with that. Your quotes prove nothing but mere opinions, what foundation? Like I said you have no foundation doesn't mean you can't try to be good but since I see no foundation Jefferson never did find an answer now did he? Second Thomas Paine was an athiest so I expect quotes like that from him. His statement proves nothing, its founded on nothing; rests on nothing; it...
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, The point of Thomas Paine is, was immoral? Did he need an invisible god to be moral? The same with Deist Washington, Adams, Jefferson and Madison, the first 4 presidents who rejected the Christian God. As Deists they believed in "Nature's God".
Morality comes from society. It would be like me saying that if you did not have a fear in God you would go out and murder and steal. Society will not allow you to steal and murder regardless if you believe in a God or not.
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@MrHoolits conti proceeds by no authorities; has no data; it can demonstrate nothing and admits of no conclusion. See I can say the same thing and at least prove there's actually nothing, since I've heard nothing on why Athiesm is accurate and correct. I'll let you get the last word in. unless you can actually argue my points and give me a foundation for your moral beliefs I might continue this, but until then you're just stating the exact debunk arguments.
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@MrHoolits last check out the Moral argument on Reasonable Faith .o.r.g and you see why Morals are objective and why Theism has the basis for objective moral values and duties.
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, It's insane and ignorant to say theism is the basis for moral values. I've said already that in all places on Earth there are values showing killing, stealing and lying are immoral and does not take a beliefs or FEAR of an invisible god to be moral as the bible tolerates slavery, murder and rape.
The most crime free nations in the world are the most Atheist and Agnostic. I also gave you stats from the Federal Bureau of Prisons so it is not opinion but fact.
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@MrHoolits conti: I'm saying is that God is the foundation for Moral values and duties, again I ask if God doesn't exist how do you know what you're doing is right since you think that morals are both? How do you know that murder is subjective and not objective? Your statistic doesn't prove anything it just proves that people break the moral code and again we have one of the most populated nations in the world and since the majority of people believe in a creator that of course you're gonna have
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, Knowing this one has to realize that stories written in the bible were written by man and not a God. God would not need 40 or so authors or 1600 years to write a book. God would not need The Council of Nicaea and later re-complied, edited and heavily rewritten by the Roman Catholics in 397 AD at the Council of Carthage. Men decided what would be in the bible and what would be excluded and what would be destroyed. Again, these are man's words not God's.
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@MrHoolits conti: it. So now you're saying that morals are subjective, but what if society were to have been if the Nazi's have won WW2, according to your last statement murder would be morally right. However with God regradless of what societies say it would still be wrong even if everyone thinks its right. You keep flip flopping worse than a politician. I'm done with you and your ad homenems. Next time stick to a point and if you lose you lose flip flopping just makes it worse.
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, Yes, if the Nazi's would have won, we would be a right Christian world as Hitler wanted a society where ALL people worshiped Jesus & considered any questioning of such to be heresy. Holocaust was a modern inquisition, killing all who did not accept Jesus.
More Jews were killed than any other,but MANY ARYAN pagans & atheists were murdered for their non-belief in Christ.
You are so confused. I don't flip flopped or offer ad hominems, like you with coffee and doctors.
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@MrHoolits Oh yes the so called Hitler was a Christian thing, In all honesty, I find the anyone who believes Hitler to have been a Christian is living in the heights of self-deception. Sure, he occasionally claimed Christianity, but nothing in his life reflects a true belief in Jesus I have never seen anything that suggests that Hitler continued to attend church (church membership being something far different than being active in the church -- ask any pastor),
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, Like the bible, you pick and choose what you want to believe. Hitler was a Christian and followed the teachings of Martin Luther. His writings, speeches and persona accounts show he was a Christian. One takes all the evidence and makes a conclusion.
Ask any Pastor. No, ask any Historian. Of course a Pastor will say Hitler wasn't a Christian.
You don't understand that despots kill all who oppose including priests, pastors, professors, his own followers and generals.
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, cont: 1997, Federal Bureau of Prisons, 0.21% of inmates were atheists, yet Atheists/Agnostics represent 12% of the U.S. population.
During 10 years in Sing-Sing, those executed for murder were 65% Catholics, 26% Protestants, 6% Hebrew, 2% Pagan, and less than 1/3 of 1% non-religious.
We have morals and know right from wrong. We don't need to believe in a invisible god to do so and those that do commit more crimes.
Either way your beliefs are Faith based and not Fact based.
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@MrHoolits conti: you never stated anything about those arguments I've stated did you even look at them. I doubt that you did. Why not look at those arguments and judge them for yourself.
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
@FamousDave2186, Morals are both subjective and objective. We know killing, stealing and lying are immoral and are objective and were around long before the 10 commandments.
Killing your children for being disobedient, killing gay people and killing people for working on the sabbath. is objective immoral and subjective moral according to the bible. I don't need to go to a website to start believing in invisible gods, devils, heaven and hell that can only be seen by dead people.
This is reality.
MrHoolits 2 months ago
@MrHoolits conti: maybe you need to look at the cosmological arguments, the telological argument from finetuning, the moral argument, the octological argument, and the historal accounts of Jesus. Go to reasonablefaith.o.r.g to see those arguments.
FamousDave2186 2 months ago
The atheist lives with his eyes closed and tries convincing others that they are open. But who cares as none of it matters in the atheist world. Name calling, demeaning and mocking others who live with their eyes open is fun. Just do what you want, everything is up for grabs. Who says it isn't? Well you tell them I said it was and I'm an atheist and I'm right even when I'm wrong. The thing I won't do however is face what I believe headon. That responding to this rex guy will have no meaning....
rexturn52 5 months ago
But why do we care who agrees with us or not? Maybe we feel smarter or avenged somehow. Do these feeling have any meaning? Well maybe it's not how it makes us feel but it is our duty as atheists to set right all this wrong. Well who cares about that? What do we gain? We win, that's what we gain...........right? What does winning mean when the issues on both sides don't matter?
rexturn52 5 months ago in playlist Apologetics
Why does science matter? Who cares how old the universe or world is. Why should we care to know? Well, let's see, meaning is found is society and advancing the species right? Advancing towards what? Extinction? Ok, ok, ok. We just have to accept what is and make the best of what we have, right? Well what do we have? A meaningless species trudging towards extinction. That's what we have. Now we are enlightened and can debate others and call them fools for not agreeing with us.
rexturn52 5 months ago in playlist Apologetics
If life is meaningless as the atheist believes. Why do they bother themselves with Christians, Theists ect. Thinking themselves right in their own minds it really shouldn't matter. Why does it matter? Why are they "infuriated" ? Why debate an issue that ultimately doesn't matter? So they say the Christian is wrong, well if that's true then who cares. What they or the Christian believes is all bunk then. Not just the Christian but the atheist too. But no,...no see science matters right?
rexturn52 5 months ago in playlist Apologetics
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NEW BOOK (DONATED) FOR DEBATES AND GOVERNANCE
Topics: WINNING ARGUMENTS NOW ADDED For The Creationism-Evolutionism Debate (See Subchapter 10.2.2.), The Issue On The Criminal Liability Of Foretelling The END OF THE WORLD, Other Debated Issues, Terrorism, War, Law, Politics, Religion, Philosophy, Science, Others.
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TheServiceWeb 5 months ago
wow name calling, very mature people very mature
XtianFreak 5 months ago
I know he made a mistake, I was joking. I did hear that he is getting people to question evolution though.
huntmatuk 6 months ago
I like it that WLC confuses the age of the universe which is 13.7 billion years or so with the age of the earth which is 4.5 billion years old. So technically he's lying here.
huntmatuk 6 months ago
@huntmatuk No, he made a mistake.
vittoriacolona 6 months ago
@huntmatuk the question is "how old is the world" not "how old is the earth."
atbigdog24002 5 months ago in playlist William Lane Craig on The Michael Coren Show
@atbigdog24002 They are the same thing unless you add qualifiers on.
huntmatuk 5 months ago
What really is infuriating is that this douche Craig actually claims that his arguments are in line with mainstream science. They aren't. Craig keeps clinging to ideas that might have floated around in scientific circles decades ago, but have been abandoned based on new findings. He also misrepresents science when it helps his arguments.
MomoTheBellyDancer 6 months ago
@MomoTheBellyDancer way to go - I'm convinced now.
Tankkmatt 5 months ago
It just blows me away how Craig so easily buys into his own BS despite his advanced acumen. One of the biggest premises of his arguments is his claim that the Christian god is intelligent. But if you consider the illogical notions, the contradictions, inconsistencies etc etc.(the list is vast and to big to post) of the Christian belief system, how this man can argue that his god is "intelligent" would be hilarious if it weren't so tragically, intellectually dishonest.
nosajj12345 7 months ago
3:46 Best estimate (of the age of the world) is 13.7 billion years? I thought it was about 4.54 billion.... Important to differ between the universe and the world.
OrionVulcan 7 months ago
@OrionVulcan I agree that's an error from William Lane Craig, however, I wouldn't put more to it then a simple mis-communicate of the question :) Since his reply to the question was 13.7, it clearly shows that he agrees with the age of the universe and as such the age of the world aswell, being 4.5 billion years old :) Just saying :)
MikeRomulus 6 months ago
@namasteywhat "well, you're a theist, so that's a few point in your favour in term of critical thinking.."
You really need to re-read my post. Your reply is not at all consistent with what I said. First of all, I'm not a theist I'm an "atheist." And my reference to Craig was not at all derisive but my reference to Christianity definitely was. Oh I'm definitely anti WLC. I believe he is only out to peddle his belief system not reveal truth.
So does this mean I lose my critical thinking points?
nosajj12345 7 months ago
Despite my atheism, I am now convinced that a supernatural power is directly involved in our existence. So for me, the question should no longer be whether god exists but, rather, what evidence is there linking Christianity to this or any supernatural power. So far, the evidence proving Christianity's ties to the supernatural have been laughably weak. I don't care if he has 10 PhDs, Dr. Craig will never have more insight into the supernatural than I or anyone else.
nosajj12345 7 months ago
@nosajj12345
If you are convinced that there is a supernatural power is directly involved in our existence, then you are not really an Atheist are you....
''So for me, the question should no longer be whether god exists but''
If you believe -a- God exist, then you are not an Atheist whatsoever, bur rather a Deist of some sort.
What are your reasons/arguments for being a Deist?
tjobv 7 months ago
@tjobv To clarify,the term "god" was generically implied and by no means did I mean to say I believe in a god. I should have phrased that differently, my error. And one can believe in the supernatural and still be atheist. Gods are human definitions of the supernatural with applied designations, histories etc; and gods are also worshiped. I claim no designation, definition, or history for this supernatural force/power and sure as heck would never bow down to it, either. Therefore, I am atheist.
nosajj12345 7 months ago
So god fine tuned the universe so there will always be evil and suffering of innocent people. Otherwise why bother putting us through all this pain and suffering if we're going to evolve into totally moral society at some point in the future? Face it christians, your god deliberately created evil and he wants evil to stay around forever. If there is more evil than good in the world, then by definition god is more evil than good, because he fine tuned it this way.
sonicBlue00 7 months ago
@sonicBlue00 Humans brought human suffering...-_-
BeyondtheChaos1 7 months ago
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@BeyondtheChaos1
["Humans brought human suffering"]
But god brought humans. So god brought suffering, deliberately, and fine-tuned it all to be this way.
sonicBlue00 7 months ago
@sonicBlue00 You misunderstand free will and what love is. Love is a choice. A God of love had to give his creation a choice. Creation chose to disobey.
JonLew1138 7 months ago
@JonLew1138
["You misunderstand free will"]
You misunderstand that god brought this free will into existence, thus making him responsible for it. You still can't dodge the fact that if everything is "fine tuned" by god as Craig puts it, then he is responsible for everything that happens in the universe. And if there is more evil than good in the universe, then god fine tuned a predominantly evil universe. Conclusion: god created evil, thus making him inherently evil himself.
sonicBlue00 7 months ago
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@JonLew1138
Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God.
-Epicurus
sonicBlue00 7 months ago
@JonLew1138
Or put it this way: if you created a new form of life, and deliberately instilled them with evil, and these creatures you created tortured each other horribly and suffered horribly, wouldn't you feel bad for doing that? I would. The idea of this perfect loving god having created all this incompetent chaos that we see around us is just childish.
sonicBlue00 7 months ago
@sonicBlue00 where exactly do you see chaos?? there is no chaos in the universe, it is very well tuned. if you mean chaos on our planet and there definately are many things on our planet that are wrong, why blame god(if there is one course)? in other words god is not respnsible for what we do, but we are responsible to god .
oleh2007 7 months ago
@oleh2007
["where exactly do you see chaos??"]
Quantum mechanics, chaos theory, evolution and natural selection. /watch?v=cPjv5gIUeU8 , /watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo
["in other words god is not respnsible for what we do"]
So this god creates us and the whole universe, but he's not responsible for it...that's like saying you're not responsible for anything your child does.
sonicBlue00 7 months ago
Well that's the most intelligent creationist argument I have ever heared. Still don't know why he needs a bible, though.
unifiedreality 7 months ago
@aatefmagic No , he just went to Sunday school and studied about Adam and Eve 5000 years ago with a talking snake in a garden . LOL...
Arsenal466 7 months ago
You gotta be kidding me . God is the best explanation ? LOL!!!! That''s not an explanation . That's all "Excuses" of you stupid religious people.
Arsenal466 7 months ago
@Arsenal466 Yeah, and "Random Explosion out of nothing" is a better explanation...
genius.
camthejock 7 months ago
@camthejock Educate yourself before watching debates like this ... :D
Arsenal466 7 months ago
?? hu? Morals? What about them?, complex design, yes, designer not so.. heard of Darwin? Evolution? Secondly proof is for maths, evidence is the word you are looking for, and no, no need for evidence that something does NOT exist, on the contrary you must provide EVIDENCE that it DOES. What about unicorns, elves, fairies, and mermaids? do I need to provide evidence those don't exist?? I don't think so; all you people need to understand is that THIS IS THE SAME CASE. Third--- continues...
DrErkencho 8 months ago
..Comes from above
People that know nothing about cosmology should not be talking cosmology. I wouldn't let a butcher perform an open heart surgery, so what makes you think cosmology is an open field for anyone to come in an drop his opinion on? I'll try to make this short; Big bang,- yes so far it has even been verified by evidence, not an explosion but an inflation of TIME and SPACE, where SPACE inflates faster than T, and where at the point of the singularity TIME likely SEACES TO EXIST..
DrErkencho 8 months ago
@DrErkencho Ahem. Overall, an intelligent bit, if not for "ceases" spelled wrong....
Damonferal 7 months ago
@Damonferal
hehe... ...Thanks!
]=P
DrErkencho 7 months ago
Ok, no "HE" does not Exist. Thanks for coming Mr Craig, ..now lets move onto the next subject...
];)
DrErkencho 8 months ago
@DrErkencho Nice, test to arguing next time for a change. :)
thetraceur123 8 months ago
@thetraceur123
Well, I've argued agaisnt this piece of work called W.L. Craig Many times... just read the threads. But well typically teists do the famous "part for the whole" Falacy every time they can so why should I care?.
];)
DrErkencho 8 months ago
@DrErkencho Hahaha wheres your proof God doesn't exist? ___ Is it merely because you don't believe in the possibility of the supernatural, ...that maybe everything that exists is matter.. that non-material substances do not exist?.. or that you think the Universe is eternal... which Science has shown to not be the case, maybe you think we are just the product of a galactic mess.. ever tried looking at DNA the complexities & the intelligent design behind it all.. what about morals? etc.
ASKBELLA1 8 months ago
To TecnamTwin and all you other believers, I have a question for you. Look at Tecnam's rant about God and why he is so amazing, and skip to the part where he says "God does not reveal himself to His creatures because for one, our sin disgusts Him." Does that sound like a god you want to believe in? One that created you, created your sin, so he can...be disgusted by it?
AweAttack 8 months ago
@AweAttack And if you disagree that God did not make sin, then you must agree that god made free thought and free will. If sin is the sacrifice of free will, then God fucked himself because I used my free will to realize that I don't give a shit if there is a god. So one of you Christians explain to me if, in Craig's opinion, our only reason to be here is to realize there is a god, and become one with him, why would god create me?
AweAttack 8 months ago
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AweAttack 8 months ago
Evolution cannot produce the intangible, such as emotions and the conscience.
TecnamTwin 8 months ago
@TecnamTwin
Mh, I supposed you know what you are talking about right?. So Evolution cannot produce, say ... color?... Color is intangible. What about the nervous system, I bet you take some morfine and you won't feel a thing... so is that part of your INTANGIBLE mubo jumbo? What about taking, some of these;
Dopamine, D-Cyclocerine, Adrenaline, Serotonin, Histamin, and the list goes on and on. As for conscience it is taught as reflexive thinking, so thoughts on thoughts, that's all there is.
DrErkencho 8 months ago
God is real. Your not believing in Him does not make Him go away, or make Him any less powerful. I know He is real because of the existence of information.
AweAttack, watch your mouth! Little kids might be reading.
Anyway, God does not reveal himself to His creatures because for one, our sin disgusts Him. For two, it would kill us to look upon a being powerful enough to create the universe out of nothing; and for three, He said He wouldn't do it until The End of the World.
TecnamTwin 8 months ago
@TecnamTwin I am god. I will not reveal myself untill the end of the wolrd, but you have to believe I exist. You have to believe I am loving, caring compassionate even when the facts on earth totally contradict such a notion. What silly BULLSHIT. !!
tallliza 8 months ago
@TecnamTwin. First off, if there are children going onto youtube to watch debates on religion, then they are obviously mature enough to not be offended by cursing, you idiot. Second, I love that you send me a private message and then pick your favorite part from it and put it on this video lmfao, that's cute. thirdly, by this comment that I'm responding to, I absolutely disagree. I stopped believing in a god, and he never came back and I'm 100% happy and living a full life, so fuck you.
AweAttack 8 months ago
@TecnamTwin And your reason for "knowing" that there is a god is because of "the existence of information"? What the fuck does that mean? If you are even going to attempt to explain how you come to hold knowledge that is no universally accepted as truth, at least be more specific. Just to play along, your broad pathetic reasoning can be denied easily; Just because information exists, doesn't mean its true information. How arrogant of you to think you "know" something that is not true. haha
AweAttack 8 months ago
CHRISTIANS, NO, SPIRITUAL PEOPLE IN GENERAL ARE NO MORE THAN SCARED, SAD PEOPLE WASTING THEIR DEEPEST EMOTIONS ON SOMETHING THAT THEY TOLD WOULD LISTEN, INSTEAD OF SPENDING PRECIOUS TIME FINDING PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO QUESTIONABLE EXISTENCE TO CONFIDE IN! I SAY THIS IN PURE AND DEEP COMPASSION BECAUSE I HATE TO SEE PEOPLE LIVING THEIR LIVES RESTRICTED BY RULES THEY DID NOT CREATE. PLEASE,FOR HUMANITIES SAKE, RECONSIDER GOD AND SUPERNATURAL TOPICS!!!!!!!!!!
AweAttack 8 months ago
@AweAttack well not sure if g ay is a sin but i think it is , truth is we all are sinners, and we must stop ourselves from being gay, or doing any other sins, they cant help being gay just like i cant help looking at girls with lust, but we must try,
communismkills1 8 months ago
@communismkills1. I am only attacking the Christian god, not anything on atheism or the beginning of the fucking universe. I am not atheist. If I had to lump myself into a category which I prefer not to I guess it would be a secular humanist. I simply don't give a shit if there is a god. I've never felt a god presence in my life and I am perfectly happy without thinking there is one. I do feel though that some people who believe in a god are worse off, therefore I am trying to help them.
AweAttack 8 months ago
@communismkills1 with you, i feel you are worse off. To feel you have to work on looking at girls with lust just seems ridiculous. do what you fucking want to unless it affects someone else negatively. God is nothing more than humans that wanted to control people by putting fear in their children. Sadly, I know you won't be turned against god because I'm sure you were raised Christian. So please stop talking to me, you are not worth another minute of my time.
AweAttack 8 months ago