Jesus: Incarnate God, or Human Prophet? Sami Zaatari vs Michael Dantzie

[JabrilAbdullah]

Salaam Alaykum, akhi.

Nice debate. I think it could have been organized better though. Michael seems to be a bit irritated at the organization and the decorum. I agree that the questions raised should be relevant to what the speaker presented, so that time won't be wasted going in circles.

I think Brother Sami did a great job. And the MDI for their intervening. May ALLAH(swt) accept their efforts.

[HaysumProductions]

Face it... islam and christianity are similar, except for the fact that christianity is an excuse for sinful acts... all thanks to st.paul who changed the original christianity. He couldnt face religion so he changed it so he could enjoy bad things like alcohol

[Nakdimon316]

@HaysumProductions oh boy you are really delusional. Where did Paul change Christianity? And how does Christianity excuse sinful acts? And since when is alcohol bad?

[Darknss2Light]

@mujtahid2006 salam, are you the brother from speakers corner? you look familiar. i must say the QnA was very awkward veiwing, modration was of and the muslim speaker should have gave islamic view points across when he had the chance, but he too regected the option like the christian speaker

[SonofJaphet]

Nobody asked Zaatari why do we find Gnostic teachings in the Qu ran

[SamiZaatari]

@SonofJaphet that's not even the topic of the debate. it has nothing to do with the debate.

[SonofJaphet]

@SamiZaatari There should be a debate on the subject of the Gnostic origins of Islam

[JabrilAbdullah]

@SonofJaphet This matter has been debated before.

But, the funny thing is; who get's to decide what's "gnostic" and what's "authentic" in Christianity? Did Jesus(p) leave a table of contents on which books are reliable and which ones aren't? Were the church fathers, who compiled the Catholic bible, divinely inspired? What about the christians who 'copy and paste' ancient manuscripts together to compile their modern bibles today; are they divinely inspired?

[SonofJaphet]

@JabrilAbdullah Stiil we do find Jewish folk tales,heretical christian ,Hindoo,Zoroastrian and Manichean stories in the Qu ran thus making it man made

[SamiZaatari]

@SonofJaphet actually many of the jewish 'folk tales' came AFTER the Quran, Islamic-Awareness have already written on this topic. As for the gnostic teachings, who decides these people are heretics or not? They may have incorporated some truths into their books, and secondly the Quranic accounts are not identical at all to those Christian writings, yes, CHRISTIAN WRITINGS, they were Christian books written by Christian believers, you can say Gnostic all you like, but they were Christians.

[SonofJaphet]

@SamiZaatari When a Gnostic denies the divinity of Jesus he is not a Christian but a follower of the first gnostic teacher Simon Magus the real founder of the Catholic cult.Is nt it curious that those Gnostic writtings calls Mary the holy virgin like the Catholics and in the Qu ran you venerate her ?Nowhere in the Textus Receptus there is a verse saying 'Mary the holy virgin' only the Catholic and Muslims have a veneration for her

[SamiZaatari]

@SonofJaphet and none of what you are writing addresses the points I made. I repeat, the canon you now regard as scripture was not always the cannon, it came into existence centuries after Jesus, and many books within it were not accepted by others, and they had their own bibles and their own books in which they regarded it to be holy scripture, your cannon and your books are just one of many, this is a historical fact.

[SamiZaatari]

@SonofJaphet your cannon of the Bible was just one of many, and not every Christian of the time accepted it, there were many other books and beliefs of other Christians, so you can call them heretical or gnostic all you want, those terms don't mean nothing to people who aren't in your camp of Christianity.

[SonofJaphet]

@JabrilAbdullah The Catholic cult was a heresy before it became big ,only in the gnostic scriptures we find the origin of the Marian worship 'O holy virgin' and things like that ,nowhere in the Bible Mary is called holy or mother of God ,Btw you too have a veneration for Mary in your Qu ran is nt that curious?

[SonofJaphet]

Islam has its roots in Gnosticism , Judaism and pagan religion do some reasearch you ll find out and conclude that Islam is a man made religion

[SonofJaphet]

How can a man command the winds to stop if he s not God?How can a man change water into wine?How can a man ressurect a dead who died 3 days before?How can a man give sight to blinds if He s not God?

[Darknss2Light]

@SonofJaphet easy how can man split the water in half, how can a man turn a stick into a serpant (moses), how can a man be swallowed by a whale and survive after 3 days (jonah)????? the answer is simple, by gods help, "by the finger of god"-jesus

all profets/messengers were aided by god with miracles.

[SonofJaphet]

God incarnated a human form to feel ,our joys,our sadness,our sufferings but He was sinless .Jesus is the first creation when God said 'Let there be Light ' it was Jesus who was created or when man was created it is written 'Let US make man to OUR own image 'it was God and Jesus .The reason why Jesus was born of a virgin its because when we are conceived its the father who gives the genetic code to make our blood in Jesus s case it was God who gave the genetic code so that His Blood was pure

[barcafun100]

"This fundamental principle that man can save himself by his own works lay at the foundation of every heathen religion. It had now become the principle of the jewish religion. Satan had implanted this principle" POWERFULLLLLL

[barcafun100]

excellent presentation by Michael, the real reason why Jesus became incarnate, u have to be a liar to deny the practical side he has presented...its like he is talking about something that everyone is able to relate to. It is not about theology but real EXPERIENCE>>> whats gonna save u in temptation? the real God or some kind of man made concept thats soo easy to accept but has no meaning and is not practical??

[barcafun100]

@Min90Ra can God become a man? if u say no then the arqument is over...he is no longer almighty then. so can he become a man and die a human death? if he could not he would not be almighty.

[TheJinnAndTonicShow]

"Presenting Islam for the english speaking world"

I would love for you to be a guest on TheJinnAndTonicShow so that you can present Islam to the English speaking audience. Would you like to accept my invitation?

[mujtahid2006]

@TheJinnAndTonicShow

One on one moderated debate, fine - Muslim baiting on unfair TV show, not so interested. Thank you for your offer, but no thanks.

[DrawnByPencil]

This is the most entertaining debate I've ever watched. I'm surprised a fist fight didn't break out at some point. XD Good job Sami!

[Hamza5274]

@Jondadon2006 true god can also be so stupid to promise his followers that if they drink deadly poison they will live Gospel of Mark, Ch. No.16, Verse No.17 and 18

[Jondadon2006]

@pantherlake2002

???

[Jondadon2006]

Your premise is completely wrong

[barcafun100]

@pantherlake2002 ur conception of God is lower than the bottom of the sea... u dont serve God, u serve a being thats more limited than a chair

[Hamza5274]

Good debate

[Jondadon2006]

1 Cor 1:21

[Hamza5274]

@cycler7755 god has promised that u will live answer this does god break a promise just admit your bible is retarded

[DrXoz]

Whatta?! the christian preacher quoted 1 John 5:7? hahahaha

[barcafun100]

@DrXoz whats wrong with it??

[DrXoz]

@barcafun100 google the verse

[BlkxBarbie]

why is Sami a Muslim if keeps believing and stating what the Jews believe and Said?? I am a bit confused and surely the way in which a Muslim would read the bible would be different to the way a Christian does...So, there is not much point to him stating he used the bible to prove anything because he was just looking for scriptures to strengthen his view instead of answers. Am just saying #opinion.

[SamiZaatari]

@BlkxBarbie muslims and jews believe in the main concept, that god is one, not a trinity, and that god is certainly no man, who came and died for our sins, and that the jewish bible teaches no such thing.

[BlkxBarbie]

@SamiZaatari So then who saves you from this world?? Is it God? or yourself?

[SamiZaatari]

@BlkxBarbie it's God's mercy that saves us.

[BlkxBarbie]

@SamiZaatari oh okay.

[BlkxBarbie]

all i would like to know, from a Muslim point of view who saves you from this world to reach to heaven??

[EFullMoon]

I'm a Muslim, but unfortunately, I'm not proud of the organization of this debate. I didn't see any reason why the audience were loud, interrupting, and talked with mockery. I respect how Sami responded to the questions, but I don't respect how some Muslims in the audience asked their questions..

[027Erik]

this was really good debate. proof is all there folks. Islam is your ticket to Jannah (paradise)

[027Erik]

36:36-42 lol

[pillgrimz]

MashaAllah sami.. Great work..great manors from sami and abdullah.. Please choose the moderators carefully next time inshaAllah

[Hamza5274]

@cycler7755 only true Christians can go to heaven if this is true than drink deadly poison and prove it Mark 16:15

[cycler7755]

@Hamza5274 Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

You on the other hand should drink camel urine as Muhammad said it's a good medicine LOL

[Hamza5274]

@cycler7755 your views are flawed how about a debate with Beholderguard or are you scared to challenge him

[pillgrimz]

Very bad manors in this one.. Mdi usually hold well manord debates. They cant control who attends but something shud b done to prevent this from happening again.giving muslilms a bad look .

[La19000]

I think Micheal is now in doubt

[Palestinier4LIFE]

Well done Sami, you really made that guy michael cry lol.

Good debate, once again, sami takes home the debate, mission accomplished.

Funny how they dont know their own bible, i find that funny, but more sad :O.

[yeje89]

mashAllah very good debate from both sides, but i felt sami zaatari just stood on the side and watched everything go wrong for michael, rather than getting involved and answering the questions that the muslims were asking to michael , a stand i wouldnt expect from a good debater with all honesty,a bit disappointing !!

[muslim9x9x]

Human sacrifice (Jesus) is alien to Judaism, its PAGAN. The Bible condemns human sacrifice and only emphasizes LAMB sacrifices, which atoned for Unintentional sins only. Read the Torah. Blood and Sacrifice was replaced with Mercy and Forgiveness long before Christianity! (Prov. 16:6, Hos. 6:6, Isa. 1:11, Micah 7:6-9, Ez. 18:20-21). Blood isn't necessary for Salvation and Forgiveness (Prov. 16:6) as GOD redeemed the SINS of Israel without blood (Isa 49:7). WE don't need BLOOD to be saved!

[muslim9x9x]

Read the Jewish interpretation of Daniel 9, not the Christian interpretation which is based on BIASED translations of the Hebrew Bible. IN order to understand Daniel 9:24-27 we must read the Hebrew Text, not the Christianized Greek LXX.

/watch?v=ibLhL9ANl7s

jewsforjudaism o r g/index.php?option=com_content­&view=article&id=25:daniel-925­-translation&catid=45:daniel&I­temid=490

h t t p://judaismsanswer c o m/DrBrown-Dan%209-4.19 h t m

nice try "Dantzie"

[sharjil85]

The Old Testament clearly states God is not a man !

Number 23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1 Samuel 15:29

He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."

[muslim9x9x]

Daniel 9:24 is problematic for many reasons, it contradicts Anti-atonement passages in the Bible (Deut. 4:26-31; I Kings 8:46-50; Isaiah 55:6-9; Jeremiah 7:3-23; Ezekiel 18:1-23; Hosea 6:6; 14:2-3; Micah 6:6; Psalm 40:7-9 (6-8); 51:16-19) and doesn't agree with Luke and Acts, which doesn’t say Jesus as a “sin atonement” w w w call-to-monotheism c o m/blood_sacrifice

w w w call-to-monotheism c o m/lack_of_atonement_in_luke_ac­ts

The NT contradicts the OT in regards to Law and Theology

[sharjil85]

@samizaatari brother i got an issue with you, i think you too it easy, or you clearly didn't do your homework well, before the debate.

how come you didn't raise the point on Jesus Christ Pbuh not having a clue about the day of judgement, that is Him pbuh allegedly being the GOD ????

@cycler7755 learn from me, you still think we got no clue about basics ofchristianity ???? ;-) lol

[1Explosivez1]

btw all the dislikes are from christians who can't accept the fact that Isa (pbuh) is a prophet and not literally a Son of God.

[1Explosivez1]

Nice one Sami, you owned him!!!

[Hamza5274]

@SamiZaatari u rock but what happen to your cool Jesus hairstyle

[SamiZaatari]

@Hamza5274 i had to cut it :D but it will grow back now better and stronger than ever before! :D

[SamiZaatari]

Christian bots are attacking this video thumbing the video down, says it all really.

[trelon5]

@SamiZaatari Just want to tell you how great you were in that debate. Michael was completely out of his league. They said that God wanted to experience temptation, so we humans get tempted through the holy spirit which is put in us at baptism. According to that logic, if you haven't been baptised then you haven't had temptation instilled in you. I wish I was in the audience to put Michael on the spot a bit more because I think he could've been put under more pressure. Still a good watch though.

[joehardysr]

@SamiZaatari

ARGUMENT FROM DIVINE NECESSITY

1) A perfect God never lacked love.

2) A perfect God created in order to love.

3) Therefore, God does not exist.

ARGUMENT FROM DIVINE NECESSITY

youtube.com/watch?v=iwo4bDAxcW­8

[meerfuture93]

MashaAllah, Sami Zatari your presentation was simple and simply awesome. This debate was a good edutainment, though some parts of Q&A were messy(especially the funny interference of moderator), but still the debaters and audience made the debate successful and informative. Jazak Allahu Khairan..:)

[SamiZaatari]

@meerfuture93 yeah the Q and A fell apart, we actually had to step in and get it under control! i even had to say the moderator should not get involved.

[cycler7755]

Well done Michael, Sami owned again

[SamiZaatari]

@cycler7755 lol yeah i got owned, which is why the Christian speaker was the one who refused to answer most questions, and deal with the points i raised, as well as the challenges, lol, haha some of you are funny.

[cycler7755]

@SamiZaatari stalking the comment section again sami, mr moderate mutjahid? lol

[SamiZaatari]

@cycler7755 stalking, it's called responding, it seems you don't like your stupidity getting responded to.

[cycler7755]

@SamiZaatari It's a bit more than just responding Sami. Your stalking the comment section, let's be honest. I notice you do this quite a lot btw. Bit insecure are we?

[SamiZaatari]

@cycler7755 not insecure, when i see someone talking rubbish, i respond, and you mentioned me, when someone mentions me, i will respond, that's no insecurity, as i said, you talk stupid and just did it again. and i am not stalking, i am responding to your stupid points, and your mentioning of me, so get over it.

[cycler7755]

@SamiZaatari Sure...your stalking around here like a hyenia, come on, you know it yourself mr moderate mutjahid

[sharjil85]

@cycler7755 stalking ???? just bcoz you can't go away making your idiotic comments, you are accusing him of stalking LMAO ???? you seem to have stalking confused with responding, same way you confused CREATOR to a created being and turned the whole monotheistic religion into a pagan cult.

[SamiZaatari]

@cycler7755 and do you think your funny saying mr moderate, tell me smart guy, when do i ever call myself a moderate, i don't give myself these stupid titles which you cultural imperialists impose on Muslims.

[SamiZaatari]

@cycler7755 but do enlighten me, or will you be like michael and refuse to answer? how exactly does your representative michael do a good job when he refuses to answer questions put forward to him? LOL....if a Muslim was asked questioned by Christians and he refused to answer you would be saying ohhhhhh look the Muslim can't answer, funny how your silly mind works. as i said, keep lying to yourself, but your lies get smashed in the intellectual arena when they are challenged.

[cycler7755]

@SamiZaatari Intellectual arena is not something you're familiar with though Sami.

You couldn't answer even the most basic questions about Christianity even if you wanted to. Just like your prophet Mo, who thought the Trinity consists of Father, Son and MARY.

And who stole Jesus giving life to a bird made out of clay from the fabricated Infancy Gospel. Mo stole from well known stories over and over again. The man had no clue about Jesus or the Christian faith at all

[SamiZaatari]

@cycler7755 intellectual arena is not something i'm familiar with which is why i have taken part in a lot of them, as i said my friend, you just talk and utter stupidity, as for answering questions, hey buddy, don't take it out on me that your speaker refused to answer any question while i answered every question put forward to me.

[SamiZaatari]

@cycler7755 all you have is stupid rhetoric my friend, you say i can't answer questions, yet i answered them all...you say i got owned, yet i had to teach Christians their own Bible, while the Christian speaker refuses to answer questions and laughably brings up 1 john 5:7 which isn't even in most Bibles and is accepted as a later additional verse....so all you have is stupid rhetoric, but that's ok, keep the stupid rhetoric, i'll keep the facts and points. ;)

[cycler7755]

@SamiZaatari Answer then - why does Mo think Christians see Mary as God and that she is part of the Trinity?

[SamiZaatari]

@cycler7755 don't ask me, ask James white who accuses Catholics of revering and worshiping Mary. haha...and it is true, many Catholics do turn Mary into a god by praying to her and asking her for help and blessings, because those acts are only preserved for God alone. your too easy for me,

[muslim9x9x]

@SamiZaatari I sent you a message

[cycler7755]

@SamiZaatari Now you're lying Sami. Because you know as well as I do that NO Catholic on earth believes Mary is God. They just believe she is a SAINT, and that's it.

Furthermore, the verse does not even CONTAIN the word worship, and has nothing to do with worship. It says that Christians believe Mary is God and that my friend is false because no Christian, whether Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox, has EVER believed that.

[SamiZaatari]

@cycler7755 you didn't read? it doesn't matter if they believe she's god, when you give someone such reverence as they do that's turning her and making her into a god whether they believe it or not, just like the Prophet told a Jewish convert to Islam, when they followed the rulings of the rabbis over God's laws they turned the rabbis into God.

[SamiZaatari]

@cycler7755 and no, they don't JUST believe she is a saint, you are the liar, they believe she is a saint who can bless them, who can help them, and a saint they can call upon for help and to intercede for them, all of these acts turn Mary into a god whether they say she is or isn't, it seems you don't follow this simple point, some acts are reserved for God alone, one should turn to God if they want to receive help etc, not go and start asking Mary for help which is what they do.

[cycler7755]

@SamiZaatari No it doesn't turn her into God, no Catholic Christian believes Mary is God, none, not one. And none ever has. Stop living in denial.

There is a clear error in the Qu'ran, stating people think Mary is God and part of the Trinity.

No Christian does or has ever believed this.

You fail Sami, you know why? Because you can't defend a clear error, and islam is bogus and riddled with these kind of false statements, particularly about Jesus and Christianity

[SamiZaatari]

@cycler7755 and this is why James White also accuses them of idolatry. go do some learning, it's not hard.

[cycler7755]

@SamiZaatari 'Sura 5:115 And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and MY MOTHER FOR TWO GODS beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified!'

NO CHRISTIAN HAS EVER BELIEVED MARY IS GOD, OR THAT SHE IS PART OF THE TRINITY.

Islam is officially disproven for the man-made lies it is

[SamiZaatari]

@cycler7755 Catholics do acts that turn Mary into a god, such as seeking blessings from her, seeking help from her, calling to her etc, these acts turn her into a god as one should only turn to God for such things, not mortal creatures.....your not too smart and bright when it comes to theology, poor boy.

[sharjil85]

@cycler7755 on ur way to dis Muhammad Pbuh on trinity, you actually got your knowledge of christianity exposed. What you actually didn't realize that the christians living in the arab land, did believe Mary as.s to be a part of the trinity.

You laugh at @samizaatari, on the assumption that he doesn't understand or know Christianity, well you might get that impression bcoz he didn't strip the illogical concepts of christianity to its core, like i would have done, maybe for the lack of time.

[cycler7755]

@sharjil85 No, not true. No Christian has EVER believed that Mary is God.

Only Muhammad got confused. Muhammad even thought Jesus was a literal child of God, as in that God had sex - presumably with Mary. How dumb can one get!

Mo got it SO badly wrong it's honestly laughable for Christians today - in fact, its laughable for anyone. On theological matters - Muhammad fail. On personal matters - Muhammad fail (rape, incest, war, paedo etc). Seriously, aren't you embarrassed??

[La19000]

@cycler7755 Not Sami, Not Muhammad, and not even Quran claimed that Christians believed Mary is God. He said that if Jesus was God, and born from Mary, what does that make her? You can't just say God born from human. God own law to obey your parents and all of a sudden a human can command God. Can Mary look at Jesus like she is looking at The God. NO! And Never did! This is laughable! As 4 ur comment about Muhammad, If u cared about the truth why learn from Islamophobes? U should be embarrass

[cycler7755]

@La19000 Yes it does claim that, and that is completely false

[0ptimusbibIe]

@cycler7755 rape, incest, war, paedo ... LOL you should be the one who should be embaressed your filthy book the bible is a step by step tutorial on these actions. the jesus was jesus was the greatest fail of all time and 30 year old guy who lived with his mother and wash the feet of whores ... LOL the freak love whores so much he save one from getting stoned. imagine that god incarnate save a dirty prostitute but order the killing of babies in the OT ... disgusting. christianity = FAIL

[sharjil85]

@cycler7755 "Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this, our exile, show us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!"

[SamiZaatari]

@cycler7755 please do tell me how i got owned when i had to teach the Christians about their own Bible, i.e. exodus 7:1 where Moses is called a god, a verse they claimed that was not even in the Bible, they denied it, said Bible says no such thing, so how exactly is that called owning? lol my friend, your little silly stupid youtube comments can only work on youtube comments, in the public arena, this silliness get's obliterated.

[SamiZaatari]

@cycler7755 oh and did you like the part when the Christians in the audience denied a verse existed in the bible calling moses a god, lolllllll, and i got owned? keep lying to yourself buddy, if it makes you feel better, but you can lie to yourself as much as you want, when you step into the public arena your silly views get absolutely intellectually destroyed to pieces.

[Mohd91ful]

they treated the christian unfairly and kinda harshly!

[0ptimusbibIe]

lol you kinda have to feel sorry for this christian fellow ... what the hell was the guy final statement about rambling nonsense

[SamiZaatari]

a point i forgot to mention in debate, Michael clearly said God cannot be tempted, then right after said Jesus was tempted, I wanted to bring this up but forgot! that right there is more evidence and proof that Jesus is not God, simple.

[frid9999]

Did it occur to anyone at the debate that jesus might never have existed - that it is a fictional/mythical character? The perfect vacuum of contemporary evidence from jesus' (supposed) time is very strong evidence that this is so.

[trelon5]

@frid9999 That would have to be an entirely different debate. :) Do you believe that Mohammad existed?

[penkallli]

@frid9999

Its unlikely that Jesus didnt exist, since we have 1 century documents about him, lets say 30 years after his death/raising, like the gospel of Mark

Contemporary evidence is rare in history

[frid9999]

@penkallli But doesn't that seem odd to you. This guy could literally walk on water and no one documented it until 2 generations after the supposed events occurred? Every decent-sized town had a scribe - it is inconceivable that no one documented these incredible events at the time. 

[penkallli]

@frid9999

Thats a different thing, miracles and other material is secondary issue, Jesus having lived is probable

Ther was many manuscripts and books of course but not all of them survive, we have a very small portion of writtings from that time, majority of history is lost to us, thats a fact

[frid9999]

@penkallli We have NO writings at all from the time of jesus and for 2 generations after. Not "a small portion". None. That is inconceivable if he was a real person who did anything like what the post-70 CE stories claim. It is a myth. And when muhammed made up the quran he added these lies from a previous generation to his own. You have all been tricked by people who make up stories for power and profit. I can prove it. "Allah, are you there? We have some questions."

See. Nothing.

[penkallli]

@frid9999

How do u mean 2 generations, year 30 + 40 = 70, 1 generation, and historians agree that a person called Jesus did exist

We as muslims believe in Jesus because we believe in the quran as the word of God not because of the bible

Quran contains extrabiblical stories, and contradicting stories with the bible, so to say the prophet just borrowed is unfounded

[frid9999]

@penkallli Well, I am not going to argue with you about the math but 40 years *is* 2 generations in a culture where most 18 year old females were married and had no birth control.

As for historians being in consensus about the historicity of jesus... well, not really. Now that christianity's influence is slowly fading, more and more historians are starting to ask the questions I am. The vacuum of expected contemporary evidence is a huge problem that is not going away.

[penkallli]

@frid9999

Contemporary evidence is hard to find for many historical figures not only Jesus, yet historians accept them as historical

[frid9999]

@penkallli part 1/2. You said, "Contemporary evidence is hard to find for many historical figures not only Jesus." Three things about that: 1. That isn't quite true. There are many dozens of persons from jesus' time whom we are fairly confident are real because of contemporary evidence. 2. Jesus allegedly did some amazing things, making it all the more incredible that no one wrote them down at the time. If you walked on water would it not be documented far and wide the day after it happened?...

[frid9999]

part 2/2 - 3. We *do* question the actual existence of many "historical figures" exactly because of a vacuum of contemporary evidence like we have with jesus. We question the existences of King Arthur and Robin Hood for example, exactly for the same reason we should question the existence of jesus - a perfect vacuum of contemporary evidence.

The spell is broken, people are asking questions, about both christianity and islam, and the answers provided by you believers are wholly inadequate.

[penkallli]

@frid9999

Apollonius of Tayana contemporary of Jesus

"His primary biographer, Philostratus the Elder (c.170–247 CE) places him c. 3 BCE to 97 CE"

Historians accept his existence, and he also was a miracle worker

[frid9999]

@penkallli I am not sure what point you are trying to make about Apollonius of Tayana? That here was another guy who lived around the time of jesus, and nearby, who, significantly, failed to mention this amazing water-walker and food-multiplier? Or that Appollonius' alleged super powers are another example of how easily and often myths can be created (like muhammed's prophethood, and jesus' super powers)?

I appreciate the help making my case - there is no such thing as too much evidence.

[penkallli]

@penkallli

His biographer is not a contemporary yet, historians say he existed ! Thats the point,

As for the prophet ur entering murky waters, was have nonmuslim source just 2-3 years from his death, mentioning something about his life, that we know today !

The prophet had around 100 thousand companions, 10 thousands of which we have biographies, his companions actually became rulers and conquered Byzantium and Persia etc. historicity of the prophet is very strong

[frid9999]

@penkallli Your claim that Apollonius is universally recognized as real is not true. The contemporary sources that Philostratus used (claimed) for his biography of Apollonius have been lost. So in fact this is another example of the certainty of historicity being directly proportional to the source evidence at hand. In this case, it boils down to how much can we believe Philostratus that the source evidence once existed and he was true to it?

[penkallli]

@frid9999

Generally we dont doubt have a reason to doubt a historian without reason !

If I have written record of Jesus just 30-40 years after his death/acension, is very good evidence for me, Im not a christian but all these people couldnt agree on a lie just like that !

[frid9999]

@penkallli I don't know what more to tell you other than you are wrong. It is inconceivable that a man/god could have walked on water and made food by magic in the middle-east 2k years ago and no one at the time wrote it down. Even Apollonius supposedly wrote letters (one of the alleged sources I mentioned that are lost) and failed to mention these earth-shattering events. These events would have been documented far and wide - and yet we have a perfect vacuum of such evidence. I smell myth.

[penkallli]

@frid9999

Historians agree that prophet Muhamed existed, he also performed miracles, ur trying belief in miracles with actual existence of the man

U cant say they all invented a man Jesus to worship and follow, the miracles if u dont believe in them are explained away as people myth about a historical person

[1MoreMuslim]

@frid9999 I would put Bart Ehrman 's argument. A Crucified Messiah cannot be made up, because it's embarrassing statement to make. What strong evidence that you have?

[frid9999]

@1MoreMuslim Not sure what to make of that argument. It's so absurd it seems self-debunking to me.

And I shared my evidence already... the perfect vacuum of contemporary documentation of the comic book-like events that are claimed to have happened. It is inconceivable that there was no scribe who documented the events until 2 generations after they supposedly occurred. That is how myths are made.

[1MoreMuslim]

@frid9999 You seem ignorant about the theological problems of making up a story about a crucified messiah. If you want to make up a story about a Messiah, you won't make up a crucified one. Simple and easy. but you are inflexible to counter arguments.

[frid9999]

@1MoreMuslim You said, "If you want to make up a story about a Messiah, you won't make up a crucified one." Why not? That is the wonderful thing about making stuff up, you can let your imagination run wild. Any argument for the existence of superbeing that has to resort to claiming to know what the story writer was thinking is extremely weak. Such a weak argument would only have to be developed because of a vacuum of real evidence, which is my point, that curious vacuum of real evidence.

[penkallli]

I feel sorry for these christians