Philadelphia Peaceful Horse Demonstration 12.5.09

[donttalktome0206]

All of you Need to be educated on care for horses!! these horses are not being mistreated in anyway shape or form!!!!!!!!!! Im a carriage driver and Yall activists need to get a job and stop sucking each others d..k!! f...k off dam

[kelanaslatimer]

What is more sad is hat there are so many horses that don't even get the care these people are providing. I think pulling a horse drawn carriage in a city is a poor existence for a horse but at least they are not being starved to death like those wild horses in Nebraska that a man "rescued". Those horses had freedom, then they were rounded up by the government, sold at auction, and starved to death by some rancher who didn't care.

[HorsefeathersNYC]

Well done, my friends in Pennsylvania! Thank you for helping the horses.

[sdgeiger]

I'm actually very disappointed that they'd delete their comments. If your beliefs are strong, stand by them for all to see.

I wanted others to see the types of responses we receive from the owners/operators/employees of this industry.

[rowanmorrison]

I agree SD. It's really the coward's way out.

[rowanmorrison]

lol - there goes 76 Carriage Co. - I knew they couldn't stand up under the pressure!

[sdgeiger]

Interesting... why would delete a comment unless it's filled with mistakes?

[rowanmorrison]

I've debated these people before, and they always behave similarly.

[eatingconsciously]

@rowanmorrison can't believe they wasted all their time with writing those "thoughtful" comments, but then deleted them all!

[eatingconsciously]

@rowanmorrison hopefully, we will run them out of the city just as easily!

[rowanmorrison]

Well, WE certainly won't run away like they do, that's for sure!!!

[bgittelman99]

their comments are laughable. they should take a minute and look into the carriage horses' eyes, and then tell me about the "lovely" relationship.

[rowanmorrison]

No one working on behalf of horses automatically hates humans - stop with the inflammatory attacks, it won't fly here. It appears there is no depth to which you won't sink to justify your livelihood of forcing horses to perform for you.

[rowanmorrison]

Instead of thanking those of us who have rescued horses, why not put your money where your mouth is and stop contributing to the problem by exploiting them to make your living? It would be MUCH better for horses for you to work to end their exploitation than to rescue a handful (or however many you have rescued, if in fact you have rescued any).

[sdgeiger]

A good relationship is where two beings mutually agree to treat each other in respectful, caring way. Since non-humans cannot speak in a human language, they can never tell us if they prefer to live their lives in their own ways or to have us continue to breed them and subject them to human desires. Because this is true, we have to look at wild animals. Nowhere in the wild do animals purposely breed other wild animals to provide them food or entertainment.

[sdgeiger]

Ants and Bees don't purposely breed other animals. Bees polinate Plants. Plants are not apart of the animal kingdom.

[rowanmorrison]

I guess I don't. I'm not aware of bees and ants exploiting other species to provide them food or entertainment. Please educate!

[eatingconsciously]

I'm sorry that your so narrow-minded that you believe we can only care about humans OR animals. All of us working on the horse-drawn carriage campaign believe in animal rights and human rights. You are grossly misguided.

[rowanmorrison]

You are grossly misguided if you think your exploitation of horses exempts you from criticism just because others are exploiting horses.

You are misguided in characterizing your horses as "coworkers" and calling forcing them to go in all kinds of whether in busy city traffic a "lovely relationship."

You assume that forcing horses to perform for you to make money off them and perpetuating their exploitation can be a good thing for the horses. You have no idea.

[bgittelman99]

it appears you care about the horses as personal property, not as living, feeling beings who deserve to live life on their own terms.

[bgittelman99]

Could it be that the anonymous woman who runs a horse recue in Ohio has only taken in one carriage horse because most of them are sent to slaughter after they are worn out and the carriage companies have no more use for them?

[thedrafthorse]

She buys straight from auction / the kill pen.

MOST (as in 90+%) of horses sent to slaughter are TB's, QH's, STBs and other light horses, not draft horses, and NOT carriage horses.

Get your facts from the Unwanted Horse Coalition, not PeTA's propaganda!

[sdgeiger]

None of us are getting our facts from Peta.

[rowanmorrison]

Oh, here we go with the PeTA deflection. How 'bout you get YOUR facts straight before posting accusations? The work being done on behalf of the horses you're using to make your living is totally unrelated to PeTA.

Why don't you stop deflecting attention from what YOU'RE doing by attempting to demonize the racing industry and respond to the criticism of YOUR activity?

[eatingconsciously]

No one working on the campaign to end horse-drawn carriages in Philadelphia endorses PeTA. Get YOUR facts straight.

[rowanmorrison]

I don't know how many times I've heard "PeTA" when it has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Once again, get YOUR facts straight. You're the only one quoting PeTA, and I have to respectfully ask you to stop it. This is NOT about PeTA.

[bgittelman99]

If you cared about the horses, you would work to end their exploitation and not put money in then hands of people who use and slaughter them.

[bgittelman99]

The horses like having harnesses strapped to them and being forced to pull people around in city traffic? Or did you mean that YOU like using the animals as slaves for your financial gain? Just because there are other exploitative activities that also need to end, doesnt justify forcing horses to serve as vehicles in traffic.

[lacount9]

They aren't forced they enjoy it. besides there are horses that are forced to do things and they never do well at it. if these carriage horses didn't want to work they wouldn't be there because they wouldn't be worth the work.

[eatingconsciously]

@lacount9 Oh, so if they don't want to work they can just go home? I guess that human slaves in this country didn't have to work if they didn't want to either, right?

[lacount9]

horses who do not enjoy what they're doing are flighty, irritaded, and hard to work with. If these horses didn't like their job they wouldn't be doing the job because the driver would find a horse who would.

[eatingconsciously]

@lacount9 I think you meant to say that horses who haven't yet been repressed to the point when they function on command, then they're "hard to work with."

[bgittelman99]

"Flighty and irritated" -- sort of like the horse that bolted at 3rd and Walnut Streets at the end of August, causing an accident and injuring the horse. A horse's acceptance of being enslaved by the carriage companies is not the same thing as enjoying it.

[rowanmorrison]

Yeah, my grandfather said the same thing about the horses he forced to perform in the circus acts, things so bizarre like jumping off a diving board into a small pool.

[bgittelman99]

That's real logical. Would you enjoy pulling people around the city every day? The horses perform the work because they have to -- not because they enjoy.

[sdgeiger]

If this video had shown domesticated horses sleeping on king-sized mattresses, my response would be the same. Humans shouldn't be domesticating animals simply to entertain us. These animals cannot make their own decisions to form their own families, communities, play, rest, find their own food, or whatever else they choose to do. We need to stop domesticating these animals and start protecting their wild cousins to live on their own terms.

[sdgeiger]

@thedrafthorse We are in control of our own reproduction - the domesticated animals are not. To argue that we should continue to domesticate animals simply because we humans are also domesticated is ridiculous.

[eatingconsciously]

@thedrafthorse You just don't get it do you? These animals are your slaves. It's no different than human slavery. These horses are not free, they never get to do what they want. They are always at the mercy of their owners. I don't believe any animal should be unnecessarily exploited, which is what this industry is doing. No one needs to ride these horses to survive. It's purely our own selfish pleasure and domination.

[rowanmorrison]

Oh boy, here comes 76 Carriage Company to defend their meal ticket. First comes the accusation that we don't know anything about horses, and then when we show that we do, deafening silence. I too know something about horses. My grandfather used them in a circus act, among other things.

And I know other people who know a lot more about horses. Those who are not making a living from them ALL agree that a life pulling around carriages in traffic is horrible for a horse.

[sdgeiger]

You think giving a carrot to a horse that has to pull us humans around a loud city with cars flying past it spewing exhaust fumes in it's face is some sort of reward?

[sdgeiger]

We're not claiming that the horses are being beaten - we're claiming that they shouldn't be used at all.

[bgittelman99]

The relationship is "lovely" for the carriage drivers and owners, not for the horses.

[rowanmorrison]

Yeah, Ringling Bros. circus makes the same exact claim about their "lovely relationship" with the tigers and elephants they force to perform to make their living too. You can make the statement until you're blue in the fact - it doesn't change the fact that these animals are NOT volunteers, and performing for you to make a living is exploiting them for YOUR gain, not in THEIR best interest.

[bgittelman99]

"A lovely relationship?" You're joking, right? The horses and carriage drivers have as lovely a relationship as slaves had with their owners. The carriage drivers clearly care for their horses as property that is useful to them to make a profit.

[lacount9]

The driver was right you are uneducated about horses. They would be out in the field and totally bored. Those horses look healthy and strong. Educate yourself before you slam people.

[eatingconsciously]

@lacount9 You're wrong. I grew up riding horses. I actually do know about horses and spend time with them at sanctuaries. Don't try to tell me that these horses would rather pull a carriage and stand around all day as opposed to roaming free in a field.

[rowanmorrison]

Who is this anonymous woman and which "draft horse sanctuary" is it?

[rowanmorrison]

What are you doing to help the "poor slaughterbound and abused horses" other than to try to deflect attention from your own exploitation of horses? And, just to show how ignorant you are, I HAVE rescued horses bound for New Holland, using my own money to do so.

[rowanmorrison]

I don't know whether you "rescue horses" or not - unlike you, I didn't assume, I just asked a question. If you have indeed "rescued horses," then why not take it to the next level and stop exploiting them NOW so there are fewer horses in need of rescue - let the horses you make money from live out their lives in peace at a sanctuary?

The fact is, you make your living forcing horses to go out in all kinds of weather, in city traffic, which is a horrible life for these horses.

[bgittelman99]

Again, your statements are completely inaccurate. I guess for you, meaningful contact = using animals for your selfish purposes.

[rowanmorrison]

Exactly! But two wrongs don't make a right, 76 Carriage Co. Didn't your mother teach you that?

[eatingconsciously]

@thedrafthorse P.S. I don't ride horses anymore, nor do I agree with that either.

[lacount9]

actually they would. horses enjoy getting out of their feilds and having something to do. Just because you grew up riding doesn't mean you know any thing about horses, it only means that you onced used them.

[eatingconsciously]

@lacount9 Really? And what makes you a horse expert. I do know that horses are animals like me and that all living creatures want to be free from harm and restraint. Also, one of my good friends is a veterinarian who runs a sanctuary that takes in horses from situations like this. I guess he knows nothing about horses either. Let me guess, you're a carriage driver or someone else who profit from exploiting horses, right?

[lacount9]

No I'm not. I own 4 horses and care for another and they come running out of the pasture when i get a halter. They enjoy going fo trips and being ridden and if your to blind to see that then it's not my problem. It isn't the carriage drivers' problem either.

[eatingconsciously]

@lacount9 Nothing you're saying makes any logical sense. They come to you because it's a habit they've learned. You are severely misguided.

[bgittelman99]

It's the horses' problem. That is why we need to ban the horse-drawn carriage industry. Don't you think the horses would prefer to run free, as opposed to being used for your entertainment and financial gain?

[rowanmorrison]

I asked 76 Carriage Horse Company to allow us to review the medical records of the horses and to see where the horses have "retired" during the last ten years. I was totally ignored. If the horses have such a great life and 76 Carriage Company has nothing to hide, why don't they allow access to this info? they should be proud of it!

[lacount9]

"do you own horses?

I don't think you care about them. Give me copies of the medical records."

Are you off your fucking rocker? they don't have shit to prove. You are slandering them the burden of proof belongs to you all. It is none of your business where those horses retired to. they didn't belong to you and weren't mistreated. So get off your high horse and educate yourself about horses because juding by your comments and your friends you don't know much.

[eatingconsciously]

@lacount9 Really, unless a horse gets on here and leaves a comment I don't know what gives you any more authority on what horses do or don't like than I. By the way, nice language. It really shows your rationality and maturity level. Makes you seem really credible.

[eatingconsciously]

@lacount9 and no one is saying the horses are "mistreated". We're saying they're being used against their will- a.k.a. exploited.

[lacount9]

There is alot more wrong with a person who demands someone elses pets' medical records. My language doesn't affect my credibility simply my frustration at people who want horses to be yard ornaments.

[eatingconsciously]

@lacount9 So, I guess it would be wrong for someone to report child abuse because it's not their kid, right? You make no sense.

[lacount9]

Didn't you tell earlier that you weren't claiming these horses were abused???

You can't say that your not claiming these horses are abused and then use child abuse as a comparison.

I may not make sense to you because you can't grasp this but at least I'm not full of shit.

[eatingconsciously]

@lacount9 The child abuse argument was simply used to make the point that just because it's not your "pet" doesn't make it any less of your business. You said there must be something wrong with someone who asks to see the medical records of a horse that isn't THIER "pet." Just because it's not YOUR "pet" doesn't mean it's none of your business. Now please, don't you have some horses to go dominate or something?

[eatingconsciously]

@lacount9 And another thing! If you think there's something wrong with someone who intervenes on behalf of an animal that isn't theirs, isn't that EXACTLY what you're doing here? Intervening on behalf of KEEPING horses that aren't yours exploited? Talk about hypocritical.

[rowanmorrison]

These horses aren't pets. They're the livelihood of these drivers and carriage horse companies. There is NO reason that a company bragging about the health of their horses should be exempt from being asked to back up their claims with evidence.

[lacount9]

No horse should ever be just a pet they deserve more.

[rowanmorrison]

Like being forced to tote humans around in busy city traffic and all kinds of weather?

[eatingconsciously]

@lacount9 Right!  Like free will!

[sdgeiger]

The horses should be free to live their lives the way they choose. It's a very simple concept to understand.

[bgittelman99]

@lacount: #1 learn to speak properly so people can at least understand you. #2 do you even know what slander is? Here's a little tip: it's not slander if its true!

[lacount9]

#1 I speak very well. #2 I do know what slander is. Your OPINION is not the truth. show me proof that what your saying is the truth and then you can say I was incorrect.

[bgittelman99]

@lacount9: #1: you speak very well just like the horses enjoy carting people around the city. #2 the fact that you are using horses for your own selfish purposes is an obvious fact, not an opinion.

[sdgeiger]

We who support the horses to live out their lives freely are not on "high" horses - you are.

Your comment is a perfect example of the problem: Horses belong to themselves, not to humans. They deserve to live out their lives in a sanctuary. Their wild cousins deserve to live their lives as they so choose and not be rounded up to be killed, used, or to be domesticated.

[sdgeiger]

Try this experiment:

1. Stop breeding/domesticating new horses.

2. Count the number of wild horses that run to Philadelphia to become carriage horses.

If the number of horses arriving in Philadelphia is 1 or higher, then perhaps you will have a willing participant in the pulling of humans around the city.

If none arrive in Philadelphia to become Carriage Horses, then you have your answer about the true desires of these horses.

[nandesneto]

well, I mean horses stand everyday wheter in the city or in the country. they only "lay" to sleep.

[eatingconsciously]

@nandesneto they don't stand in one place with an oppressive contraption on their heads and in their mouths.

[kelanaslatimer]

I have a horse that does not grow enough of a winter coat to stay warm. He loses weight if he is not fed grain in addition to free choice hays. He has to have special care for his feet or he will become too sore. Is it wrong of me to put blankets on him in winter, feed him grain, and have shoes put on him? Is it wrong of me to use a halter & lead to hold him for the farrier? I do not support horse drawn carriages but I do not agree that all relationships between humans and horses are abusive.

[rowanmorrison]

Such a horribly sad life for these beautiful, majestic animals.

[horsesinnyc]

so much abuse in this world .