The Thermite Engine: How to Recycle your beer cans

[GeistvonWut]

I would really love my first car to be powered by a Thermite Engine and beer cans XD

[astriknon]

So what happens when your "Thermite Engine" becomes a solid block of iron/aluminum from the reaction products, or did you patent some complicated exhaust system as well?

[beefstew78]

also the black stain that its leaving on the bricks is carbon another biproduct or emission :(

[beefstew78]

im pretty sure its not emissionless and with out beind any kind of science major i can see the smoke coming off on the burn (that would be emmisions) im about 100% positive its not water vapor or o2. just my observation also i think prossecing aluminum and iron even if it recycling cost more then fossil fuels not trying to steal ur thunder just saying

[Blood2Letter]

i hate this song, realy

[b4ra2]

i guess the car will spit chunks of iron from its exhaust pipe

[wakmah]

Love the idea.

Where can I get to read the patent?

[phookadude]

the idea of using finely powdered aluminum or iorn to power an internal combustion engine has been around for some time. Thermite would be an unnessicary complication as atmospheric oxegen works just fine.

[waldar123]

@phookadude Yes, I know about alumunium oxide engines...the point here is to create an 'emissionless' engine and you can't do that by sucking in oxygen...it's also inefficient and it's very hard to keep you 'fuel' from oxidising prior to its use for work. Still, if they make one work I'll be the first in line....

[LookWithNoHands]

@waldar123 : That's very inefficient!

1) The oxygen in the Iron(III)Oxide you use also comes from the exact same air anyway, so why bother?

2) Oxidizing Iron(III) for making thermite also wastes some energy as it's an exothermic reaction,

3) Carrying the Iron(III) with you in the car if you don't need it is more weight meaning more waste.

[frogjezz]

@waldar123 You could never have a emission-less engine if it runs on fuels.

[codeartha]

@phookadude the left over molten metal and the ht temps will solder the pistons together

that's just aweful

[phookadude]

@codeartha I really depends on what the piston and cylender are made of. That's another problem with using thermite though, when using metal powder and atmospheric oxegen you end up with finely divided oxide aftyer combustgion whereas with thermite you end up with molten metal.

[NejiFireFlame]

Whats the song?



[waldar123]

@NejiFireFlame clubbed to death

[reddog418]

Engines suggest continuous use over long distance (otherwise what's the point). In order to be efficient, the energy released must offset the weight of the fuel. In this case, the thermite reaction doesn't combust into expendable gases, but rather large chunks of iron and aluminum oxide. I don't see how this makes any practical sense seeing as you've just patented a chemical reaction, which confounds me that the patent office even recognized you.

[waldar123]

@reddog418 You'd need to read the patent... yes, the patent is for the process, but it's not an simple as your implying.

[antennadudedan]

Why go to all that trouble.. we have the compressed air car!.. oh wait thats right, the oil companies gave india 3 days of terrorist attacks, subsequently the indian Tata car company stopped production etc of these cars.

We can build all the alternative energy cars we want ..the oil companies WILL NOT allow them to go into production till there is no oil left!

[1ukjunglednbraver]

some thermite can cause explosive effects...just like flash powder that technicly isnt an explosive either as both the products of the reaction are solids just like with thermites....but some thermites just like flash powder heat up the air so fast they can make a pressure wave and a big bang...cupric oxide aluminium thermite for instance....

[waldar123]

@1ukjunglednbraver Wow...I didn't know that...I had to deal with the Water/Hydorgen explosions but that wasn't difficult.

[1ukjunglednbraver]

@waldar123 you dont really have to worry about it with most thermite mixes.....just serch a few videos for explosive thermite its crazy stuff

[wvanbokk]

@waldar123

There are lots of metal oxides other than iron (III) oxide to try. Even silicon dioxide works, with a little coaxing. Google "amazing rust" and you'll find a page with most of the possible combinations.

Be careful. Iron (IIII) oxide and aluminum never truly explodes no matter how fine you grind it, but lead oxide and aluminum can produce a forcefully expanding cloud of toxic lead vapor.

[Bellithe]

@waldar123

I like what you are doing but your statement "Thermite reactions do not explode because of water" while being AFAIK 100% true is misleading in that while water in the thermite will not cause it to explode water in contact with the metal produces can absolutely cause an explosion. google "steam explosion" it is a very real hazard which is often encountered by metal casters.

I'm also Very curious as to how you propose to extinguish thermite?

[waldar123]

@Bellithe You can get explosions--steam reduction of water creates hydrogen that combusts easily...the point is that you can control the reaction using water. It extinguishes by removing the fuel....I have a patentable plan for feeding the thermite into the water--actually not rocket science. I do need help to do it so spread the word that you can make an efficient emissionless engine and let's get on with it.

[Bellithe]

@waldar123 steam reduction of water means you are oxidizing mater. In the case of thermite before the iron is oxidized by the water, the aluminum has to be. this means iron oxides remain as a byproduct. Molten metal and water are fully able to explode without the hydrogen ever reaching oxygen, in fact they have nothing to do with hydrogen reaching oxygen. google "vapor explosion"

[Bellithe]

water extinguishing thermite is done by the removal of heat, unless the reaction mass is to hot then it produces a vapor explosion. A thermite reaction is self sustaining because it has it's oxidizer (iron oxides) and fuel (aluminum metal), this means it is able to burn while isolated from an outside oxidizer.

[Bellithe]

Now... Iron metal burns in air if heated enough. If you are using iron oxides to oxidize aluminum you have to carry the weight of the oxides, the weight of the products and the weight of the water. Compare the weight of thermite and it's pathetic energy density to the energy density of kerosene. factor in the weight of iron metal, the weight of aluminum oxide slag and the weight of the water.

[waldar123]

@Bellithe Yep...you're right... kerosene is awesome (so is petrol, butane etc etc). You normally have to compressed a whole lot of air to get the right mix and that makes it pretty inefficient as well. The weight of the oxide has been mentioned before--why not just use the oxygen int he air? We'll note that underwater the molten iron is reduced to iron oxide + hydrogen...it needn't explode (cf Thermit welding) and you can reuse the ironoxide--making it unecessary to carry all the weight.

[Bellithe]

@1ukjunglednbraver

A Copper(II) oxide thermite produce copper gas as does a Manganese dioxide thermite.

[1ukjunglednbraver]

@Bellithe yeh its true but the metal gas is there for so liitle time...it condenses almost instantly the heat is the main cause of evolution of pressure and the bang

[Bellithe]

@1ukjunglednbraver

...yes? they can rapidly produce gas which expands at a high rate... Are you trying to say that a thermite is not technically an explosive because they are not observed to detonate?

An explosion does not need to produce gas. There are solid to solid high explosives such as copper acetylide just as there are explosives which do not detonate such as black powder.

[surplusdriller]

wat is the efect % in the engine compared to the electrisity used in Al production

thes would be extremaly "green" here in Norway were 98% is hydroelectric power

ceers

[waldar123]

@surplusdriller The reason I even considered the idea is that I wanted to prove there are engine designs that don't carry the battery and are clean (in this case emissionless)...the production of the energy is at the hydro station.... the theoretical minimum at which Aluminium could be produed is around 6.5 kwh per kilo (current average 12-15kwh)...you get 4.8 kwh per kilo back in the thermite reaction. The process is described in the patent (which won't stop you building one).

[archetype616]

plasma synthesis/?

[piranha031091]

Wouldn't it be more interesting to use air's oxygen as oxidizer instead of the iron oxide of the thermite? I mean, you would carry less fuel (and a safer fuel! aluminum powder cannot catch fire alone except when heated under an important air stream), and burning aluminum in the air gives you more energy than burning it in iron oxide

[waldar123]

@piranha031091 You're right and in many ways it makes sense. People have tried exactly this--along with the more technical version of an AL/Al2o3 Fuel cells. The problem is that Aluminium already loves Oxygen well before you get anywhere near trying to ignite it. You can add Aluminium to things to get better fuel (to coal fires or rocket fuel) but it's impractical to do it by itself. In addition, thermite reactions are anorobic, so you can contain the burn 'underwater'.

[waldar123]

@waldar123 Also...the calculations should recognise the ultimate product of the thermite reaction is 'hot iron' which when placed in water converts H20 to hydrogen, which when burnt gives you back some of the difference. (BTW: every text book tells you not to undertake a thermite reaction around water because the hydrogen created explodes....I say, YES it does and a good thing too!)

[9noitulover]

Hmm, never put much thought into Thermite reaction being used for a fuel source. Glad someone did. Good job!

[Goremark84]

Well i assumed it would be some kind of steam turbine, but what about the efficiency of that kind of mechanism. i think that the mechanical and energy loses during the process would eliminate huge energy stored in thermite. Do you know what would be efficiency factor of that engine. ( Diesel ICE that are installed in ships can have efficiency factor up to almost 40 %)

[waldar123]

@Goremark84 I'm in favour of a Tesla Bladeless Turbine....others would try for something else. Diesel and Petrol engine are 98-99% efficient with converting energy to work but only about 30-40% efficient using the calorifc value of the fuel. Thermite is only about 45% efficient carrier of electricty (it's ultimate source of energy) but converting this to work can occur with a similar efficiency in a Thermite/Electric configuration (Like a toyota Priius but get rid of the petrol engine)

[Goremark84]

Burning thermite in contact with car parts mostly made of aluminum- not a very good idea. you would have to implement some metals that are able to withstand those temperatures, and that materials aren't cheap - so no WAY!!!

[waldar123]

@Goremark84 The trick is to contain the reaction in water...thermite needs no oxygen to burn so you do it in a steam chamber putting the energy to work.

[ixfalia]

Yes there are fuels that we could be using for our cars other than gasoline. The base problem is that many of them would take much electricity to make sustainable. This is true for Thermite, or Hydrogen. They still require the power from Fossil fuels (coal, oil) or Nuclear fission to make sustainable, and both still have harmful byproducts (Fission less so, nowadays). In the end if we can't find a new cleaner power SOURCE we end up at square one. Solar, Wind, Water power aside.

[waldar123]

@ixfalia Using thermite as fuel is just a way of 'carrying' energy from one place to another...it's a good way because it's cheap, clean, doesn't pollute the atmosphere, is non-volitile etc...it doesn't 'create' energy.

[waldar123]

@ixfalia I entirely agree....I'm not fond of lithium batteries being dumped either.

[JehuMcSpooran]

Nice video. I was thinking of something similar to this. Shame there is still CO2 emmissions from the Aluminium refining in the first place. Such a shame I can't find anything on chemical reduction of Al. Would make it so much easier to refine. Btw, what's the music called? I've heard it on plenty of other videos but can never find what it's called

[sbrafk]

@JehuMcSpooran Clubbed to death

[waldar123]

@sbrafk Cheers...

[waldar123]

@JehuMcSpooran Al203 /AL fuel cells have been mooted since the early 70's...they don't work because they are expensive to design and require tricky parts (plates and scrubbers) to make them work. CO2 at Alumium refineries can be made using renewable sources, the C02 currenly is recycled into the process...moreover, there is an alternative method that doesn't use carbon electrodes. Aluminium refineries are one of the few industries that have successfully reduced their emissions to pre 1990 levels

[JehuMcSpooran]

@waldar123 How? Got links to how this is done?

[XxVizzinixX]

Interesting....

Is it more feasible/efficient than using fossil fuels? That's the million dollar question.

Good luck finding and investor.

[waldar123]

@XxVizzinixX It takes 15kwh of electricity to make 1 kilo of aluminium, of which you get 4.6kwh back as a calorific value to turn your turbine. That's about the same calorifc value of 1 litre of petrol. 15 Kwh of electricity costs (at wholesale prices) is about 80 cents (NZD) or about 40 cents USD...not bad eh?

[XxVizzinixX]

@waldar123

Yes, that's very good. That's like cheaper than gasoline right? If this where to catch on as a major mode of transport, would the spike in demand increase or decrease the cost of the thermite fuel (aluminum manufacture)?

Also, since we have to manufacture the thermite reaction materials (unlike oil), could this ever be used as a large scale power supply eg cities/countries.

Considering we lose power in the process, it seems impossible.

[waldar123]

@XxVizzinixX It would be a complete waste to power a city with thermite since it's only about a 40% efficient carrier of electricity...power cables are the way (92% efficient). However, thermite can be made when power loading on the grid is low...that's another advantage, it 'stores electricity'.

[waldar123]

@XxVizzinixX BTW: The theretical minimum that you could get aluminium production to is around 6.5kwh per kilo...less than half what they do now but no-one cares to pursue such because the economic model doesn't drive the investment. That would make thermite about 75% efficient carrier of electricity, and that's superb compared to any existing fuel cell.

[waldar123]

@XxVizzinixX

And...of course, you don't spill oil into the Gulf of Mexico traying to extract Bauxite

[XxVizzinixX]

@waldar123

Yes, it seems that events have conspired to allow for the introduction of new energy sources to a global market. You better get to work. : )

[jannikmt]

@XxVizzinixX no unless you wana re desing engens to work with a solid for a fule (thermite shovoling?)

[waldar123]

No we haven't actually got a car running around on crushed beer cans. If you have the money to build it, we have the design.